Okay the 12269 closed something
#general
tall anchor
vast isle
oh
tall anchor
vast isle
well then try to start your server now... although i thought you were gonna use pterodactyl
vast isle
you have to make a server
tall anchor
and made config
vast isle
did you start wings
vast isle
are you in the allocation section?
vast isle
go to nodes -> your node -> allocations
tall anchor
vast isle
you need to make the allocation beforehand
vast isle
up to you
vast isle
🤷♂️
you can always just set a limit and then increase it later if it's getting maxed out
vast isle
screenshot?
tall anchor
vast isle
fill out this part with your server's ip and the port you want the server to run on https://i.jordqn.me/3aafa1eee8.png
tall anchor
What ports do i put?
vast isle
the port you want.. the default minecraft port is 25565
quiet salmon
The ports you have open and you want to use ^ the default port is 25565 for Minecraft
tall anchor
Perfect
Its installing the server
So last question
The minecraft directory i have installed through terminal
do i keep that?
tall anchor
Now ptero controls everything right
vast isle
yup
tall anchor
So i dont need Filezilla or terminal anymore
vast isle
well you'll probably still want filezilla to access your server files
you can see it in the web panel but sometimes you'll have large files to upload
quiet salmon
In your ssh client do ufw allow 25565 (presuming that’s the port you have on pterodactyl)
tall anchor
tall anchor
If i wanna use bungeecord that not what i wanna use or?
tall anchor
In your ssh client do ufw allow 25565 (presuming that’s the port you have on pte...
Lemme check
vast isle
oh, well yeah if you wanna make a bungeecord server
quiet salmon
Do you know how to setup bungee cord
tall anchor
No clue ive never even used a dedicated server before
vast isle
for your bungeecord servers make sure they use an allocation with 172.18.0.1 instead of your public server ip
tall anchor
Kevin were u talking about the deamon port?
Okay
so i change that right
under ip
quiet salmon
No you’ll need to allow the other servers through the firewall
Otherwise
You won’t be able to connect
vast isle
for your bungeecord servers make sure they use an allocation with `172.18.0.1` i...
only do this for your backend servers
tall anchor
okay i allowed 25565
vast isle
did you start the server now?
tall anchor
im reinstalling the server just to be safe idk
@vast isle
Server is up
But i get this
Okay i disabled online mode
quiet salmon
Set your backend servers to offline mode & go into the spigot.yml and change bungee cord to true
vast isle
!bungeecheck
outer vesselBOT
tall anchor
@vast isle i dont have spigot yml
vast isle
for your lobby server?
tall anchor
i mean i litterally just pressed install hahaha
modest compass
what server type are you running?
tall anchor
i dont have anythign besides bunge
gilded nova
...
modest compass
i dont have anythign besides bunge
well you need a minecraft server, bungee is just a proxy to connect multiple minecraft servers
tall anchor
Ahhh hahahah
So bunge is just the proxy that connect's paper/spigot etc servers together
modest compass
yes
gilded nova
yep
tall anchor
So for proxy as ip do i just use my normal ip jordan mentioned something with 172.18.0.1
vast isle
for your proxy ip you use your actual server's ip
and then for your paper/spigot servers you use 127.18.0.1
tall anchor
Okay thanks, even tho i used 172.0.0.1 when i setup ptero?
do i still use 127.18?
I guess it dosnt matter?
tall anchor
and then for your paper/spigot servers you use `127.18.0.1`
And do i still use mc port even tho i use localhost ip?
vast isle
172.18.0.1 is like 127.0.0.1 in docker which is what pterodactyl uses
vast isle
And do i still use mc port even tho i use localhost ip?
use a different port
tall anchor
Just a random one?
vast isle
yeah it can basically be anything
vast isle
no that's already in use by wings
modest compass
minecraft default is 25565 (think)
so just +- around that range should be ok for backend servers
then your proxy, use the minecraft default
tall anchor
Okay thank you
vast isle
yeah that's what I do
tall anchor
So i have to open those ports in cmd aswell right
vast isle
no since they're backend servers you don't want people to be able to directly connect to it
vast isle
🤔 what did you try to do
tall anchor
create a new server lmao
vast isle
try refreshing? I don't think I've seen that trying to make a server before
tall anchor
I think i know why
Same
😭
okay i think i know why
It dosnt connect to the other node
vast isle
you don't add a node for each server lol
you only add a node for each dedicated server/vps you have
just go to the server section to create new servers
tall anchor
Ahhhh
lol
Ahhhhhhh i understand
But
So
the node
I allocate for EVERY Server?
And then
i take abit of that
when i create a server?
primal bay
vast isle
wdym max out everything
tall anchor
Like lets say my dedi serv have 32gb ram
Do i just put 32 gb under allocation in the node
So i can spend that on my servers
vast isle
in this section? https://i.jordqn.me/8e6319e48e.png yeah you'd put how much ram and storage your dedi has
tall anchor
Ye
vast isle
or how much ram and storage of that server you want to be available to use in pterodactyl anyways
tight chasm
Ptero so funny :P
tall anchor
Confusing af but i think im starting to learn it abit
tight chasm
Gl
tall anchor
definitely happy i got it installed and didnt give up cause that terminal shit was aids af
vast isle
what is it?
vast isle
did you use 172.18.0.1 with the right port here https://i.jordqn.me/95fa3e8136.png
vast isle
no the bungee config
tall anchor
Oka let me check
Okay its restarting
Same
thing
It changes the query port back
after i change it
outer vesselBOT
tight chasm
Do you have Look the IP in Server properties is the same?
vast isle
what port did you use for your lobby server?
vast isle
well then use that there
tall anchor
Yea restarting
Okay it litteraly says "Joining world"
Maybe i bugged it out cause i tried to join
without any server
tight chasm
You must use the same IP whats in the Server.properties is from the lobby server
I dont think its 172.18.0
1
tall anchor
In my spigot?
tight chasm
Yeah in normal you Bind your backend Server to localhost
vast isle
172.18.0.1 is basically localhost in pterodactyl
tight chasm
Ah ok Yeah than you Look its Bind in your spigot or not
And do you have active bungee Cord on it?
vast isle
did you try just relogging?
vast isle
does your lobby's log say anything
tall anchor
Could not connect to a default or fallback server, please try again later: io.netty.channel.ConnectTimeoutException
tight chasm
Do you have Look what ip is in the file?
tall anchor
Do you have Look what ip is in the file?
Yea i changed it but still the same
tight chasm
And bungeecord=true on spigot?
tight chasm
The actual game servers behind the proxy should use allocations with 127.0.0.1 as the address, so they are only reachable on the node, and not from the public.
vast isle
you can try it ig but i don't think it'll do anything
tall anchor
It is 172.18.0.1 currently
But i can try to change it
i just changed query port on spigot server to 25575
it was default port
idk if that does anything
nope
vast isle
can you screenshot the error
tight chasm
Normal yourip:port should work
tall anchor
where do i change ip of server?
tight chasm
You must get a IP from your hoster?
Whith that you should everytime connect only change the port
tall anchor
nono i mean
I wanna change local host from 172.18.0.1 to 172.0.0.1
idk if it does a thing
tall anchor
tight chasm
And the bungeecord need your public ip
tall anchor
Yea it does
tight chasm
vast isle
not sure if it's a problem with your setup since it seems to be able to reach the server but it times out
maybe try setting server_connect_timeout to a higher value?
tight chasm
In allocations you must use the 127. 0.0.1 and in bungee config this ptero local ip
tall anchor
I notice when i refresh the server its really slow when its pinging compared to other servers
why is that
vast isle
does your server just have bad internet?
what does the ram and cpu usage look like for both your servers?
tight chasm
https://pterodactyl.io/community/games/minecraft.html Do you read this?
tall anchor
No idea
vast isle
I think it was that in older versions but when I first used the panel it was broken so 172.18.0.1 worked in allocations for me
it still works for me now so I'm not sure it's that but you can try it
oh
@tall anchor you did 172 not 127 lol
vast isle
it's still 172.18.0.1 but it's 127.0.0.1 for localhost
tall anchor
So what are the different between them arent they both local hosts?
vast isle
in docker yeah so i don't think it'd actually make a difference but 172.0.0.1 isn't a thing
tall anchor
Ah okay well im trying that now
Still the same
Could not connect to a default fallback server
vast isle
maybe try doing ufw allow 25575 🤷♂️
tall anchor
Yea i did
tight chasm
Its more easy to See all files what You configured😅
vast isle
also maybe https://pterodactyl.io/community/games/minecraft.html#ufw-ubuntu
Try this? not sure which one it wants when it says localhost port so I'd just try both
onyx mason
Hello
vast isle
hi aber 😄
outer vesselBOT
tight chasm
Get this?
tall anchor
Yea
vast isle
vast isle
which port did you put in the command
vast isle
copy paste the command you did
tight chasm
In multicraft we has create 30 bungees in this time 
tall anchor
ufw allow in on pterodactyl0 to 127.0.0.1 port 25566 proto tcp
ufw allow in on pterodactyl0 to 172.18.0.1 port 25566 proto tcp
Hahahaha
Jordan what host do u have
vast isle
ufw allow in on pterodactyl0 to 172.18.0.1 port 25566 proto tcp
try this with 25565 maybe, other than that i'm kinda clueless
also use pterodactyl but i run it in docker and on centos
tall anchor
i use pebble could that be why or
vast isle
🤷♂️
tall anchor
Is it cause i use paper server or
vast isle
no i use paper as well
tall anchor
hmm
tight chasm
Paper is better for servers
vast isle
try this with 25565 maybe, other than that i'm kinda clueless
tried this as well?
tight chasm
Spigot eat more und is buggy😅
vast isle
ig you could also try disabling ufw temporarily to see if it's a firewall issue
tall anchor
Whats the command
vast isle
ufw disable
vast isle
oh, oof
vast isle
yeah
tight chasm
Tmrw?
tight chasm
Can you create a second acc to your panel? Maybe i can Look and find something😅
tight chasm
K
tall anchor
I just realized in my bed
I think i know why
I need atleast 2 servers + a bungeecord proxy for it to work i think
Idk
vast isle
I don't think so but 🤷♂️
tall anchor
Imma try when i Wake up i made a ticket aswell @pebble
severe fern
Guys, is it possible to embed a link in a prefix?
viscid wedge
if someone knows how to make my username be in a different color, instead of taking the color of the last word, which is colored, as in this ss
vast isle
add a different colour code at the end of your prefix
viscid wedge
i did, it keeps the same color
tight chasm
Guys, is it possible to embed a link in a prefix?
sure
tight chasm
what plugin you use for prefix?
severe fern
essentials
severe fern
what plugin you use for prefix?
Essentials
tight chasm
ess chat than?
severe fern
Yeah
severe fern
Can you send example?
tight chasm
owner: 'your link {USERNAME} &f&l>&r&6 {MESSAGE}'
normal surge
sexy
severe fern
owner: 'your link {USERNAME} &f&l>&r&6 {MESSAGE}'
No. I'll explain with an example. Here I have a prefix, let's say Twitch, I want to click on this prefix to open the link
drowsy quest
i hate gitlab-ci
Why?
sweet olive
how can i do that?
Example &4[Owner] &b
drowsy quest
Answer me @latent tendon 🔫
drowsy quest
Personally I’d say GitLab is better. But if you want people to collaborate you’re better off using GitHub
drowsy quest
OMG. That’s the cutest thing ever!
normal surge
wholesome cat vibes
brain what would you say is the best way to implement a leaderboard system that lets you get the top x players, for example for points in a minigame or econ balance in a world
ignoring using a database*
i have what I think is a pretty nifty solution but it's a bit ghetto and i was wondering if there's some standard way to do this
tight chasm
No. I'll explain with an example. Here I have a prefix, let's say Twitch, I want...
interesting idea but dont see that work
drowsy quest
brain what would you say is the best way to implement a leaderboard system that ...
Use a sorted list
normal surge
what about if a player's score needs to be updated
drowsy quest
If you’re talking about how to represent it in code/memory
normal surge
yeah
drowsy quest
what about if a player's score needs to be updated
Then you extract the entry and renter it
normal surge
would that be O(n) time
drowsy quest
Sorted lists have O(log(n)) find/delete times and same for insertion
Or they can have those times it they are a linked list design
It’s O(n) for both on an array list
normal surge
ye
drowsy quest
In Java you want the tree list
But in any case O(n) is better than any unsorted solution will give you
drowsy quest
Tree lists get the first element of your search in O(log(n)) time
Any following element is O(1)
And if it's the head/tail of the list getting it is also O(1)
normal surge
i see
that's a bit better than what i have, i think
i was doing some wierd shenanigans where i combine a HashMap with a TreeMap
drowsy quest
Just use a TreeList
normal surge
HashMap<UUID, CustomScoreClass> for unsorted access in O(1) time
TreeMap<String, CustomScoreClass> for getting top x vals in xO(logN) time
where string is the score + the UUID
drowsy quest
I meant TreeSet btw
normal surge
ah
drowsy quest
HashMaps have O(log(n)) time access btw
normal surge
eeeh
why
dont they do a hash and convert it into an array index
logN instead of N**
for the treemap
drowsy quest
They convert it to a hash and then do a binary search on the backing data structure
Also keep in mind that generating the hash is not free
normal surge
well it's not free but it's constant
and idk, wherever I look it says hashmaps are O(1) for retrieval
drowsy quest
Yes. But remember that O(n!) can run faster than O(1) for sufficently small ns
normal surge
well if i only deal with small numbers then it's fine either way
setting up a database is slower than using a text file if you only have one entry
drowsy quest
And right. Nevermind. Access time is O(1) for a hashmap. Discounting collisions
They must be using a binary tree then for the index
normal surge
i always thought they were just using an array
drowsy quest
Do you know how big an int is?
normal surge
key -> hash -> modulus -> input into array
drowsy quest
Just no
normal surge
eeh d;
drowsy quest
If you know your key size you can just use a binary tree
normal surge
well if the key size is large enough then arrays would be faster, right
drowsy quest
And a waste of memory
normal surge
well you're right about that
but i figure at that point you wouldnt use either solution and instead opt for a true db
drowsy quest
Well you have to remember that there's a difference between storing data and having data in memory
normal surge
well the db'll cache it for you
drowsy quest
Even terribly slow lookups are usually faster than databases
normal surge
if we're worried about using too much memory we cant just keep using more memory
normal surge
not sure what I was trying to say there
drowsy quest
Me neither
tight chasm
No. I'll explain with an example. Here I have a prefix, let's say Twitch, I want...
maybe i found a solution for your idea
normal surge
oh i had more questions about sql stuff
firstly, i'm still unsure as to if I should even have a surrogate key for players
i don't see myself doing any more than one than one search at a time that would need to filter by player uuid
drowsy quest
Again
If you have a player table anyways where you store additional data alongside the players, use the internal ID
Else use the UUID
Simple as that
normal surge
ahh gotcha
drowsy quest
Just alone the smaller key size will be worth it
normal surge
right now i actually don't have a table that's dedicated to players so i guess no internal id for me
drowsy quest
If you need it later, then you can always change the schema later
normal surge
and something else, does the max varchar size i set for a column impact performance / storage at all
assuming the cells stay the same length no matter the max size
normal surge
so indexing varchars is bad
normal surge
ah
drowsy quest
Ignore me
But yeah. Only use VARCHAR if you actually need to limit the string size or if you want to index the column
normal surge
what if i don't need to limit the string size
drowsy quest
And what I also meant is that you really shouldn't use a WHERE clause with a VARCHAR column unless absolutely necessary
tight chasm
i get today this someone know this error?
drowsy quest
what if i don't need to limit the string size
Then use TEXT (or SMALLTEXT, TINYTEXT, MEDIUMTEXT, etc)
normal surge
oo
fair enough
also i was actually planning on doing a lot of where varchar = x... XD
normal surge
currently i have tables where i have a column for something like permission-name and another for permission-value
drowsy quest
That's a valid use case
normal surge
noice
wait if i'm converting my varchars to texts
is going where text = x still fine
for the permission name, permission value
normal surge
darn, so should I keep those as varchars?
drowsy quest
You need to create a fullindex on text columns
Which is terrible
As mentioned, VARCHAR where you create an index, TEXT where you don't
normal surge
well i wasn't planning on indexing the text when i go where text = x
drowsy quest
And you should index everything that you use in a where condition btw
drowsy quest
well i wasn't planning on indexing the text when i go where text = x
Why not?
normal surge
i'd first do where uuid = player
drowsy quest
Ok. So?
normal surge
;o
drowsy quest
Secondary lookups still benefit from an index
drowsy quest
No?
normal surge
alright
drowsy quest
Primary implies unique, correct
But you have index and unique as keywords/index types
normal surge
i see
if I index everything i use in my WHERE though, that'd bring me up to 2 of 3 columns and 3 of 4 columns being indexed in some of my tables
i see it mentioned often that too many indexes is bad, but would that apply here
drowsy quest
Well it depends
An index never has a negative performance impact on selects
Only ever on inserts and updates
But if you're mostly selecting that's fine
Now the other issue with many indexes is storage space
Indexes need a fair amount of storage
Sometimes a single index can use more than the entire data of the table
normal surge
oof
i think for my usecase i'd be okay with a slightly slower search time for significantly lower storage use
drowsy quest
So my personal approach is to just use indexes where I can
Because who the fuck cares about an extra 1-2MBs
And if it's really important to you
Like if you really need to squeeze out that extra 1-2ms on every query of your 10 million entry table, the benchmark it
normal surge
do you know how or if the type / uniqueness of data affect how much space an index takes up
like if i have 6 or however many enums that i save to a million rows
drowsy quest
Hell even 500MB more don’t matter in regards of disk space
drowsy quest
do you know how or if the type / uniqueness of data affect how much space an ind...
Doesn’t matter too much
But if you’re guaranteed to only use a handful of unique values, use an enum instead
normal surge
does that come standard in SQL?
drowsy quest
Yes they support it
normal surge
since that's what luckperms is on and all my other stuff, and it's just less hassle to only have one server
drowsy quest
And btw don’t store UUIDs as text. Store them as binary
normal surge
oop actually that brings me to something that you might find irritating
for my uuid column for permissions, i have my generic player uuids
and i have 'default'
for the default perms for that server
but thinking about it, maybe i should make a separate table for that... xd
latent tendon
Answer me <@131946592172244992> 🔫
I was sleeping
nimble eagle
Hi, how i can disable saving default players?
nimble eagle
nothing
trail shuttle
show their /lp user <user> info ingame
drowsy quest
@normal surge
Oops
Pressed enter too quickly
Anyways, yes it is a lot better to have a separate table for defaults
Or if you want to throw it in the same table, just use a fixed UUID
Or even better don't store config in a database
drowsy quest
I was sleeping
How dare you insult GitLab and go to sleep?!
drowsy quest
Default values
drowsy quest
Yes
trail shuttle
I used to use GL, because at the time iirc private repos weren't free on gh
drowsy quest
Where else?
drowsy quest
I used to use GL, because at the time iirc private repos weren't free on gh
Ewww. Closed source
trail shuttle
private projects
normal surge
i think in my case i'll have to keep the permission defaults in the db
drowsy quest
Why?
normal surge
just because they're not truly defaults
they're configurable by the player per-world
normal surge
so i could have like 10k different default settings for 10k worlds
and they could be changed at any time
drowsy quest
a) that's a lot of worlds.
b) don't see the issue with that
normal surge
well what's the alternative to having them in a db for me
tight chasm
so we have someone here with denizen knowledge? or guys with fat brain? to explain me some from denizen XD
drowsy quest
well what's the alternative to having them in a db for me
I mean I don't see the need for them to be in a table in the first place
Enlighten me on why you'd need that
normal surge
well just like how a player can alter another player's permissions regarding the first player's world
the owner can alter the default permissions for players who just join the world for the first time
so for all intents the default is just another player
drowsy quest
Ok, And why does that need to be in the database?
normal surge
for the same reason that regular players need to be in the database, i guess
drowsy quest
No that's for persitance
normal surge
not quite synced but
i'm not sure how to explain it well
basically a player can join the network
and click an icon to start up a server
a la minehut or aternos.gg
the default permissions are permissions for the players who join that new server for the first time
drowsy quest
Ok.
Sure
But what about that needs a database for the data
That's the part I don't understand
normal surge
ah well i guess the one part that is 'synced' is that the player can change permissions through a gui they can acces from any server on the nework
so like if they need to ban or unban a player they dont have to join the server to do it
same for any other permission
normal surge
actually never mind that last point i dont actually need a db for that
drowsy quest
But you do you
normal surge
when i think of a usecase for a database i think of lots of data that I want to be accessed efficiently
i'd like to have the potential to handle a lot of data, and i don't want to bog myself down, so i figure that's enough reason to go for one
tight chasm
you want default player create ingame a server? O.o
normal surge
yeah, i already have that part working to an extent
it's just very minimal
no permissions or customization until i actually make a place to store that
tight chasm
but what is with the storage?
normal surge
well i want to store information about the player's world
drowsy quest
Wait wait
normal surge
i want to store which players are allowed to visit it, what permissions they have, that sort of thing
tight chasm
so player get a world or full server?
normal surge
a full server
drowsy quest
So you have per player default values?
normal surge
i have one set of per-world default values that apply to any new players who join
then i add a new row for any permission i change from that default for a player
tight chasm
that sounds hard
normal surge
so if my server had 10 player worlds total, i'd have 10 sets of default permissions, one for each world
drowsy quest
What a roundabout way to explain things
tight chasm
what is when 100 player everyone claim a full server?
drowsy quest
In any case yes that warrants a table/database
normal surge
yeah sorry about the bad explanation
normal surge
what is when 100 player everyone claim a full server?
well ideally i'd have a hundred player worlds on a hundred servers then
tight chasm
its sound hard and crazy and a touch from weird haha
normal surge
but of course i'd run out of room on my hardware at some point, after which i'd like to be able to start using aws for any overflow
though i have not done anything towards that end yet
tight chasm
normal surge
actually that's an interesting thing i didnt think about yet
brain, do you know if pterodactyl supports using aws
tight chasm
its hard to understand this XD
drowsy quest
brain, do you know if pterodactyl supports using aws
In principle
Pretty sure you can add new nodes through the API
trail shuttle
I need suggestions of what kind of plugins to make and for which platform (simple ones ;d)
normal surge
oh but you have to add vms manually?
drowsy quest
oh but you have to add vms manually?
Yes
normal surge
huh
tight chasm
I need suggestions of what kind of plugins to make and for which platform (simpl...
updating factions3 plugin for me 
drowsy quest
Pterodactyl doesn't have any tools for adding nodes by itself
normal surge
i ask because there's this cool aws feature coming out soon this year that lets you replicate their cloud setup locally
trail shuttle
updating factions3 plugin for me <:bri_wave:785579002088652801>
factionsuuid
tight chasm
we can not convert the factions :/
normal surge
and it'd make the job of switching between on-site and cloud resources much much easier
tight chasm
and the tab complete has not work in factionuuid 😦
trail shuttle
Have you tried their support?
drowsy quest
You really must have lot's of money Ivan8or
normal surge
i have made -$1500 over the past year
tight chasm
its simple create plugin that works with denizen so like open webbrowser link without everytime click yes i know the dangerous of this link 😄
drowsy quest
Then why on earth do you even think about using AWS?
trail shuttle
its simple create plugin that works with denizen so like open webbrowser link wi...
not possible
tight chasm
Have you tried their support?
i was with the developer one night we tried to convert this factions but nothing worked
trail shuttle
atleast afaik
normal surge
oy the AWS s3 is actually really well priced
especially for archival which is the majority of what my storage goes towards
tall anchor
Good morning
tight chasm
or betters says he convertert my factions and i say its not work 😛
tight chasm
Good morning
normal surge
the instances are definitely pricey but again above all I want to rack up some experience working in the environment
drowsy quest
the instances are definitely pricey but again above all I want to rack up some e...
Alright then
I have one question
If you're already set on what you're gonna use, why do you even bother asking us about our opinions?
normal surge
well i'm not set
i do hold my opinions close to me, but I also want to hear what the counters are to anything I want to do
drowsy quest
Well some people collect stamps, other spend ridiculous amounts of money on model trains as a hobby and some apparently like throwing money at companies that are as close to slave labor users as current laws allow.
Each to their own I guess
normal surge
you can't tell me you don't use amazon for online shopping o.o
trail shuttle
I don't
drowsy quest
That is correct
trail shuttle
Never have either
normal surge
what sites do you use then?
drowsy quest
I prefer local businesses
trail shuttle
Sometimes, depends what I need
drowsy quest
Just alone for better quality products and lower chances of tampered with stock
And also I'm not a huge fan of companies that commit tax evasion in the billions
normal surge
i think that's the majority of large companies
drowsy quest
Guess which ones I try to avoid as much as possible
But Amazon is by far the worst offender
normal surge
i'd assume you avoid apple too
drowsy quest
For the most part
normal surge
but at that point i'd say pretty much all large tech companies have some ethical dilemmas to account for
drowsy quest
Sure
But there's still a difference between invasion of privacy for profit (facebook), invasion of privacy for unknown reasons (google) and essentially slave labor (Amazon)
normal surge
oh i was thinking more along the lines of electronics producers
i can't imagine TSMC gives it's workers many benefits
drowsy quest
Sure. But keep in mind that Amazon distributes those as well
trail shuttle
i can't imagine TSMC gives it's workers many benefits
tsmc?
normal surge
yeah
trail shuttle
What's that?
drowsy quest
You'll be shocked to find out that especially chip manufactures have drastically improved their work conditions
Just alone because you can't produce high quality chips in dirty factories with unskilled workers
Most of them have it significantly better than your average Amazon warehouse slave
normal surge
well that is likely true
wait are you against me using aws specifically
or any cloud provider
drowsy quest
So they'll never see a penny from me for overpriced and overhyped fancy VMs
I'm against most fancy VM providers actually
drowsy quest
Wouldn't say off limits, but definately among the last choices
normal surge
wait when you say fancy vms
does that mean that i can get my hand on some not - so - fancy vms
from someone
well either way i really don't plan on making use of the cloud any time soon, at least for hosting
but in general i don't see a good alternative to the benefits those providers offer to small projects
drowsy quest
A single large hypersior is typically all you need for small projects
If anything
You should always try to keep your virtualization stack low
I gurantuee you that 9/10 times you don't need a cloud provider
normal surge
because 9/10 startups fail 😉
normal surge
well if you do set up a hypervisor then you'd run into stuff like your isp telling you to knock off running a business on a commercial subscription
drowsy quest
well if you do set up a hypervisor then you'd run into stuff like your isp telli...
I'm not saying to host it at home
Rent servers from a server hoster
Cheaper anyways
normal surge
ahh
well i guess at that point your main concern is how you handle fluctuations in traffic/usage
with the cloud providers you're not commited to 1 or 3 or 6 months of rent on a machine you may not even use half of for the first long while
and at the same time you don't need to stay on guard to rent more hardware in case you suddenly find a need for it
it's definitely cheaper to rent from a smaller host directly if you can accurately predict how much you'll use and when
drowsy quest
Even if you need to keep a buffer
Now the funny thing about autoscaling is that I can absolutely ruin you
If I know this I can manage to get a relatively low budget attack that will easily cost 100x of what I'm paying
Especially if I do know what cloud provider you use
Like some charge for adding new VMs
So I can generate a peak forcing your system to rent new VMs. Then let it die down and repeat
Trust me when I say this
tight chasm
@placid lantern im not sure from where i have XD i dont see it in the plugin list but i have at on the server lol
placid lantern
And you use paper?
drowsy quest
Every system will buckle eventually
normal surge
i can't imagine there are no protections available to prevent overspending
placid lantern
Probs where its coming from
tight chasm
And you use paper?
yeah build 416
drowsy quest
i can't imagine there are no protections available to prevent overspending
In that case I will be able to just bring your system to it's knees
And maxed you out
normal surge
well what's the difference between cloud and renting then
drowsy quest
Exactly
drowsy quest
As long as you're not filling two decently sized root servers or have massive flactuations you don't need any of that dynamic crap
It's so ridicously overhyped
normal surge
is docker overhyped too then D;
drowsy quest
Everyone talking about the "what ifs" but never about the normal case
tight chasm
Probs where its coming from
https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/anti-xray.68465/ i think it was this
drowsy quest
is docker overhyped too then D;
Absolutely
It has its use cases but it's 100% overused
It's funny to see people wondering how I manage to pull my stuff off with relatively little hardware when my secret is that I don't docker everything
placid lantern
https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/anti-xray.68465/ i think it was this
Ok thanks, will have a looked at it!
bold sparrow
What’s the alternative for docker then?
drowsy quest
Installing the software on your system?
normal surge
i was under the impression that docker used less overhead than it's alternatives
tight chasm
you but you need skript and skquery plugin because that anti xray is a script not a plugin
bold sparrow
Fair?
drowsy quest
i was under the impression that docker used less overhead than it's alternatives
Sure
normal surge
while still offering some relatively necessary isolation
drowsy quest
But still more than just installing the software
tall anchor
Proxy have my own ip and backend servers have local host ip right?
drowsy quest
while still offering some relatively necessary isolation
How is the normal user isolation not enough?
drowsy quest
Proxy have my own ip and backend servers have local host ip right?
That's the best case
tight chasm
Proxy have my own ip and backend servers have local host ip right?
proxy your ip, allacoate or whats call was the 127.0.0.1 and bind was this ptero local ip?
normal surge
well for example me trying to run my spectacular minecraft world thingie bare metal instead of in docker
tall anchor
172.18.0.1
normal surge
if some doofus decides to spawn ten thousand armor stands that'll take a hefty chunk of my cpu away from everyone else who wants it
tight chasm
so only you must to the guide step by step https://pterodactyl.io/community/games/minecraft.html 😛
drowsy quest
if some doofus decides to spawn ten thousand armor stands that'll take a hefty c...
Containerizing services that need fairly much resources anyways and that are essentially the same thing over and over is an excellent use case for docker
Just alone because you can resource limit them in real time
But running your one off services in docker is just stupid
royal locust
hello someone knows how spark works?
normal surge
wouldn't it be better to run a one-off in a docker container if the host is using docker already, since that way docker is aware of it and can manage itself accordingly
drowsy quest
No
normal surge
D;
trail shuttle
hello someone knows how spark works?
tall anchor
!bungecoord
outer vesselBOT
Sorry! I do not understand the command !bungecoord
Type !help for a list of commands.
drowsy quest
The one thing that really confuses me about you is that on the one hand you seem to have some decent expertise. Like just alone the technologies you talk about. But then on the other hand all your knowledge seems to be so incredibly shallow. Like you just watched some enthusiast's video on why AWS is the best thing since transistors and that's it
placid lantern
If i want to add a chat plugin to my servers, do i need to put it in each plugin folder?
tall anchor
Can someone type the bungecord setup thing
quiet salmon
!bungeecheck
outer vesselBOT
tall anchor
TY
normal surge
i pride myself on the breadth and lack of depth of my knowledge
drowsy quest
I've noticed
royal locust
https://discord.gg/PAGT2fu
ty
normal surge
wait isn't the main point to using docker the portability though
drowsy quest
That's one of the advantages
normal surge
like being able to sling your setup over your shoulder and head for greener pastures
i think that's pretty notable
drowsy quest
Sure. But taking the time and properly setting your software up and configuring it is typically more than worth it
tight chasm
If i want to add a chat plugin to my servers, do i need to put it in each plugin...
think its better but you not must. Same chat plugin looks better for the prefixes 😄
placid lantern
Yea i just found ChatControl
drowsy quest
Like especially with docker compose I've noticed a trend that often the same software gets installed several times. nginx is a common offender
normal surge
oh like if you want to run several instances?
placid lantern
But if i want it for my HUB and Survival/UHC
Do i need to put the jar in each one
drowsy quest
So you can easily end up with dozens of poorly configured nginx instances that essentially do nothing but make everything slower than it needs to be and taking away resources
drowsy quest
Then one docker compose and it's all gone
normal surge
ah well lucky for me i don't touch docker compose
drowsy quest
Or updating the thing
normal surge
i agree that that's silly
drowsy quest
Poof gone
normal surge
well no upgrading it is pretty easy all things considered
drowsy quest
If you're touching files inside the container that are not on volumes, you're doing things wrong
normal surge
you just change your dockerfile to install the newer version and keep the setup script beyond that the same
drowsy quest
I mean sure. But you can't do that with prexisting containers
normal surge
containers or images?
normal surge
you can certainly do it with an image as long as you have the makefile and all the stuff for them
just rebuild it with the updated version
drowsy quest
Then you haven't really been using docker compose
But all good
The issue being all the benefit from set and forget is gone with that approach
In fact you made it significantly worse
normal surge
what do you mean o.o
drowsy quest
As you mentioned
The benefit of using docker is that you get the stuff preconfigured
Now if you start shipping applications with tools like docker compose then installing one application can mean spawing serveral containers
tight chasm
Do i need to put the jar in each one
yes
placid lantern
Sweet, thanks
drowsy quest
If you wanted to customize these you run into the issue that you essentially need to rebuild them and need to modify the standard setup
Meaning you need to configure a significant amount more than you would just installing the damn thing
And in addition you need to keep your customized images up to date
placid lantern
@tight chasm Is there a way around having to modify 3 different configs?
drowsy quest
Which at the very least is a docker build every time
placid lantern
and i wouldnt need to add the jar into the bungee proxy right?
normal surge
so you're saying it takes less effort to install something directly onto the host than to set it up within a docker container
tight chasm
<@!267518068240941057> Is there a way around having to modify 3 different config...
only bungee plugins get install it
normal surge
and maintain it*
drowsy quest
so you're saying it takes less effort to install something directly onto the hos...
For the most part, yes
tight chasm
no chat plugin or something what is maked for spigot 😄
placid lantern
Ok, that makes sense
normal surge
well i do agree, i mean including docker is an extra step that adds some extra hassle to the process
tight chasm
and yeah you can work one time on 3 different configs
normal surge
but i don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be
tight chasm
so i think you have 3 different configs but must change every same?
normal surge
where you'd run a single command to update nginx on the host
placid lantern
Just fix one and copy paste it? over to the others?
normal surge
you'd just change the version number of nginx in the dockerfile and run a single command to rebuild the image
then a second command to update all the running containers
tight chasm
Just fix one and copy paste it? over to the others?
you kann replacement on all open files
so maybe you have in 3 diffent files the word "Hello" you can replace it with one click all
drowsy quest
you'd just change the version number of nginx in the dockerfile and run a single...
That's what you need to do to update a container to use the newest version. Correct
But that's not what I'm talking about
I'm talking about an image that ships a program. However that program is configured badly
So all you can do is build your own container on top that fixes it
tight chasm
Just fix one and copy paste it? over to the others?
https://notepad-plus-plus.org/downloads/ with that its works ^^
drowsy quest
Which means now you need to keep up with upstream updates and you need to change the docker compose file
Doing that throws all the benefits of docker right out the window
frank fox
my server keeps crashing everyday and I dont get why
normal surge
well given all that it can definitely grow into a big mess of constantly redesigning your container to match the parent image
frank fox
not cuz of luck perms but its getting annoying
normal surge
but that's only a problem if the parent image is configured badly in the first place
drowsy quest
And again. Customizing single images isn't even my main point
My main point is that when using larger applications that install their dependencies using docker compose it becomes a nightmare
tight chasm
my server keeps crashing everyday and I dont get why
send me log files
drowsy quest
For example my favorite was mail cow
normal surge
what's that 😮
drowsy quest
Set up 3 different containers with 3 different images all using nginx
Among other stuff
normal surge
i mean at that point i dont think you can blame docker
drowsy quest
2 were massively oversized and one was undersized
Leading to crazy resource usage and terrible performance
drowsy quest
i mean at that point i dont think you can blame docker
I never blamed docker in the first place?
All I'm saying is that it's a terrible choice for one off stuff
Especially if you know how to configure it
normal surge
but wait
if you know how to configure a certain application well
what's stopping you from setting it up within a docker container yourself and avoiding the issues of having incompetent image authors
drowsy quest
Because that's significantly more work than just installing the software
And it also uses more resources that way
For no real benefit
normal surge
well i think the benefits are once again portability + expansion-ability(? expansionability? expansive-ness?)
you dont have to waste any significant time down the road if you ever need to reinstall your app on a different machine
and if you set your image(s) up correctly you can duplicate them with ease and avoid having to manually sift through configs changing port numbers and all that
drowsy quest
If that's a concern use server orchistration tools like Ansible
Configuring software is not hard
I'm aware there are edge cases where you can't just install the software directly
And using docker in those cases is a justified use case
But using docker for everything is the wrong choice
drowsy quest
And I've ported plenty of applications across servers
Big and small
With and without docker
Typically I find myself having an easier time when doing it without docker
normal surge
would you say docker supports a wider array of use cases compared to setting things up to work with ansible or otherwise
drowsy quest
Yes. For sure
Docker covers a lot of edge cases you can't cover with conventional setups
Like two different versions of the same software
normal surge
i think that's a huge reason why people hype it so much
it's just a safer recommendation
drowsy quest
But most of those setups mean you're doing something wrong in the big picture
No. They hype it because it's the lazy way
And then they wonder why the app performs terribly and why they need more hardware
normal surge
well a lot of companies also use VMs for their setups
is that also bad compared to setting everything up on a single host
drowsy quest
Yes
But again there are use cases where it's justified
I'd say 90% of those setups could be run better without VMs
But that needs a sysadmin that knows their shit and can put their foot down when upper management saw another of these hype videos about how great AWS is for your business
normal surge
xd
drowsy quest
Like no shit I've actually done that
normal surge
did they try to sway you into using it?
drowsy quest
My boss was like "we need this application in the cloud!"
And I showed them how much that would cost and then showed them how much it would cost running it locally
Turns out 3 months of cloud were more expensive than getting new hardware
And we had spare hardware
drowsy quest
Also it ran better than the demo in the cloud from the vendor
Like meaning you can ask them to make you a demo that's essentially exactly what you would run
AWS and all
drowsy quest
They have like a test instance which they reset every time for new demos
Fairly small instance at that as it's just a demo
So it runs better than the real deal in the end
And I outperformed their demo
Noticably
That was fun
But yeah new managament that then decided to throw that thing in the cloud
Ran slower, costs more, internet outages now take that service down
I left over that
normal surge
D;
drowsy quest
Their money, not mine
normal surge
i think that one thing i can definitely agree is over hyped is using the cloud if you know exactly how much hardware you need
drowsy quest
It's overhyped if you don't know how much you need either
There are plenty of intermediate solutions
normal surge
llama
i still feel like one of the best usecases for the cloud is as an overflow
sure you can set up as much of a buffer as you want
and it'll probably hold you up 99% of the time
drowsy quest
Considering that 1% will cost you more than you'll make back it's nothing I'd worry about
And all the extra time you'll need to put in to have it working
And depending on what cloud provider you use you also pay for standby. Just saying
normal surge
really?
drowsy quest
Yes
normal surge
i thought it was pay for what you use across the board 😦
drowsy quest
Keep in mind these are made for large companies
drowsy quest
i thought it was pay for what you use across the board 😦
AWS/Google Cloud/Azure, etc
drowsy quest
i thought they were much more attractive to small companies
No. They just have good marketing
Anything under 100 servers doesn't make sense to use a could provider for
Barring the case for geo redundancy
And even then there are better solutions
normal surge
i guess that does make sense in a way, thinking about it
drowsy quest
As mentioned cloud providers sell you fancy VMs. And 9/10 times you don't even need VMs in the first place
normal surge
since for large companies a big attraction is not having to pay to maintain your hardware
it's all coming together
drowsy quest
Well the major benefit is not having to worry about outages and scalability
With billion of hits per day scalability becomes a big issue
normal surge
that's very true too yeah
drowsy quest
And their profits typically scale with the traffic they get so that's not an issue
normal surge
well the same would go for small businesses, right?
at least, i'd hope any business would have their profits scale with traffic
seems kind of silly to scale otherwise
drowsy quest
Sure
But at those tiny scales it's still cheaper to not use it
As you're really paying for the fancy part
And all you need is the "M" part of "fancy VM"
normal surge
VMail Cow
drowsy quest
?
drowsy quest
Elaborate
latent tendon
i tried this morning to download something from my repo
and it didnt even wanted to download it
trail shuttle
snow