really?
#dusk-duskworld-dungeonsofdusk
crimson folio
prisma halo
Yeah
dim valve
also slade doesn't export midis properly
I just tried e1m1 and it has no drums
but #gami_g
jade root
zombie docks with doom regularly
umbral folio
why was I @'d
vagrant trout
docks with it?
dim valve
@umbral folio lol
you missed the big poll my dude
and the AE keys
fandangos get FUCKED
prisma halo
😏
dim valve
duckenheimer just spit out your 12 page essay on why red wendigos should've won already
hot spruce
i was actually going to mention how i had to go find xwe on my HDD the other day
found it in my skulltag folder
prisma halo
wendigo version is superior imo
woven orchid
no wonder they are red
prisma halo
whoever voted for the leathernecks has shit taste
dim valve
worse color theory, the all-red motif lacks contrast
prisma halo
dude have you even studied a sunset lmao
woven orchid
leathernecks are pure class
dim valve
sunset?
jade root
davetatorship
dim valve
I thought this was dusk
prisma halo
the action lines are all wrong
woven orchid
i think we got trolled tbh
opaque spindle
Yes its all about the action lines and the color theory
Not enough color theory
it needs more
vagrant trout
leathernecks look cooler tho
prisma halo
[wrong]
dim valve
honestly the wendigos are drawn much better than the leathernecks, but the leathernecks imo are more iconic of the Dusk IP so to speak
cerulean sun
but fuck jerry he is a dick
dim valve
the dusk cinematic universe
opaque spindle
Plus it adds more to the suprises of Episode 2
gleaming berry
both sides of the art are cool
we're trying to use them evenly
where they make the most sense
we've decided
dim valve
just split the two images in half in mspaint
gleaming berry
standby
woven orchid
yup, only answer
cerulean sun
standing by
opaque spindle
Just paint DuskPill in MS Paint
woven orchid
a wendingo fighting a leatherneck
opaque spindle
and make it that
prisma ivy
Really I like wendigos more, I just prefer leathernecks because they're kind of Dusk's mascot at this point
opaque spindle
Fuck it just make Big John the Steam picture
dim valve
muted tusk
I like it
opaque spindle
Duswsud
muted tusk
Nice action lines
opaque spindle
The action lines are perfect and nice use of color theory
dim valve
fun fact: the steam banner is 616 pixels wide. Some people argue that 616 is the actual number of the beast and not 666
solar olive
1
lucid trench
Theyre glorious
fair mirage
dacon
animeneck
jaunty meteor
I think my big issue with the Leatherneck splash is that you made that nice, metallic version of the logo; the flat red looks a bit undetailed in comparison, like a WIP even
I didn't get that feeling with the black logo since you don't really expect detail from pitch darkness
Oh, I might be late anyways :p
gleaming berry
I mean the flat red/black stands out better for ads
the box art itself will have the textured logo
it just doesnt pop as well for steam
blends into the art too much
jagged topaz
3
jaunty meteor
Yeah, if you held a gun at me and forced me to choose I'd definitely choose the wendingo one if neither could be changed
But the leatherneck art is so good that I'm sad that it lost; it's more immediately representative of Dusk since it's a depiction of EP1
jaunty meteor
It's changing a bunch! But WOW, I really like the new thumbnail
Red-on-black with the red border is very striking
thorn trout
yeah we were struggling with a good capsule image that popped then suddenly we were like "wait... why not just do solid color"
near acorn
Hey guys, really liking the look of the game. With straft jumping and the addition of sliding, this looks like a familiar game with new mechanics. Havent purchased yet, but its on my list 👍
prisma ivy
Nice 👍
mild ginkgo
early access in 3 days woo!
near acorn
Indie games are really doing it for me lately, with all of the disappointing AAA games. Keep up the great work guys
fair mirage
3 days until a massive influx of users that causes a shitstorm!
fair mirage
jk love y'all
prisma ivy
Hello keys?
dim valve
thank you for reposting my shitty meme @twin tree
twin tree
it was a meme?
near acorn
INB4 classic PCs become a thing again, packaged with this game 😏
dim valve
Dusk official materials ONLY
crimson folio
never trust a guy with 88 in his name
dim valve
WE WERE ALWAYS AT WAR WITH THE LEATHERNECKS
vagrant trout
are there two different devs on right now that are fighting over what the capsule is?
like switching it back and forth?
thorn trout
yeah we're just prepping the page for EA
dim valve
David how will you feel when niche game websites are writing this about you in 20 years?
vagrant trout
At some point in development did you guys ever consider making Episode 1 free as the demo?
thorn trout
heh I think more than likely it will be "Dave Oshry learned the hard way that trusting a psychotic Polish man to single-handedly create a game resulted in a janky insane mess"
dim valve
for context it's just a copypasta of some uncited blood 2 article
Can't wait for ROTT20132023 BTW
thorn trout
@vagrant trout I believe the idea was tossed around briefly, but never really very seriously. Even something as small as a traditional demo tends to harm sales in this day and age, let alone an entire free episode
vagrant trout
Howso?
prisma ivy
Yeah, and episode 1 is A LOT of demo
dim valve
@vagrant trout someone downloads the demo, but then 5 seconds later they go "oh yeah, i fucking hate first person shooters" and immediately tells all their friends not to buy it
vagrant trout
That doesn't make sense.
vagrant trout
If someone tries a game that is of a genre they don't play why would they go out of their way to download a demo for it, let alone go tell people not to buy it?
crimson folio
because they drink tap water
vagrant trout
they could do the latter just as well having not played the demo though
dim valve
@vagrant trout you really overestimate the intelligence of the average steam user
vagrant trout
if anything they could lie and say they played it for hours and do the same thing though
thorn trout
@vagrant trout because back when shareware was a big thing, you had people spending a lot more time on fewer games, so were much more likely to purchase the rest of a game after experiencing a chunk of it they liked. Now, everyone is drowning in games and spends far less time on individual titles. I would guess that a good chunk of people who purchase Dusk won't end up playing much more than ep1 before moving on to somedthing else.
dim valve
Yeah, just like the duskworld beta
echo epoch
Yeah but what friends think means nothing, it's all about those YouTuber opinions
gleaming berry
HAHAHAH jesus fuck @dim valve that shit is too real
thorn trout
everyone on here is an exception, because they've made a point of joining the community
dim valve
Don't thank me, thank Mike MacDee
gleaming berry
I mean this whole thing is an experiment
like we're taking the time to liisten to like everyone and implement as much feedback as possible
and if in the end thegames don't sell
then we know this was the wrong approach
vagrant trout
there's still demos for games not released that long ago that are up to four hours long.
dim valve
Still want to know if this is all true btw https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/314489273153749013/400131874799747073/blood2rumor.png
gleaming berry
shoudl have just kept quiet and put out games
crimson folio
trust in the overlords
really i trust dave's business sense
he's got a good eye and a good head
echo epoch
DUSK IS THE MOST INNOVATIVE SHOOTER I'VE PLAYED IN YEARS
crimson folio
he's a good salesman
thorn trout
also re: "why would someone play a demo for a game they don't like?" Because there are a lot of younger kids on Steam who don't have a lot of money, who will grab anything that's free and won't think twice about meme reviewing.
gleaming berry
I have a splatterhouse 2010 poster on my wall
dim valve
david finally puts into words what I was merely implying
gleaming berry
vroom vroom
crimson folio
haHAAAAAAAAAA
vagrant trout
that happens regardless if people are able to get the game for free
gleaming berry
Demos kill sales in 2017
prisma ivy
As someone who is forced to follow the steam forums, you do not know the horrors I've seen
gleaming berry
which is why nobody does them
vagrant trout
I don't see that being a large enough margin to hurt the game's sales.
gleaming berry
2018 rather
dim valve
piso mojado?
gleaming berry
to prove this
vagrant trout
Where can I find said data?
crimson folio
i'd tell you what the name of the game is but it's blocked by the filter
gleaming berry
idk fukin google it
if anything demos come down the line
for late adopters
also with refunds and stuff now people dont need demos
if they dont like a game they can get moni bak
dim valve
Yeah, do what The New Collossus did and release a demo well after you meet sales expectations
gleaming berry
yeah or pirate it
its so easy to get a game free these days
if u dont wanna pay for it
we've had a bunch of people buy dusk
after admitting to pirating ep 1
fine by us
dim valve
I still laugh at that
gleaming berry
cant stop pirates anyway
vagrant trout
all the articles I see are from 2013
dim valve
why would you admit to stealing on a developer's page?
echo epoch
Well after you bought it, it's kinda moot
vagrant trout
Can you at least give me an example of some sort of study you'd say was actually trustworthy?
crimson folio
hey
echo epoch
And a lot of people justify piracy then purchase by there not being demos
crimson folio
as long as you're not supporting g2a
thorn trout
@dim valve that's a good question lol, but I guess if you're gonna admit to it New Blood would be the company you'd want to admit it to
vague egret
we still talk about adding an anti-piracy mob like serious sam had
vagrant trout
@crimson folio darkwood.jpg
frozen heart
or like the people i used to know who were too lazy to look for a demo and pirated it anyways
frozen heart
GIRLY MAN
thorn trout
@vagrant trout this sort of thing is literally Dave's job :P
crimson folio
that's a plus though
gleaming berry
BUY THE GAME
lucid trench
GIRLY MAN
gleaming berry
GIRLY MAN
cerulean sun
loool
crimson folio
honestly if dusk anti-piracy was big john i would refund RN
gleaming berry
I would 900% make that happen if we can
prisma ivy
I was about to say big john would be the best
cerulean sun
l;oool
gleaming berry
he just chases you around
vagrant trout
I know this but I'd still be interested to at least have some examples to back up what he's saying.
gleaming berry
BUY THE GAME GIRLY MAN UHAUHAUHSDUHSDHU
prisma ivy
SHIN BIG JOHN
cerulean sun
un killable clips walls
crimson folio
lol
cerulean sun
blocks your view
echo epoch
I've always thought releasing a modified version on popular torrent sites is a both hilarious and creative way to reduce piracy. The best part is reading reviews of your games that clearly had the stolen version. Planescape: Torment comes to mind.
frozen heart
i still like the idea of it being Little John riding a rat
vagrant trout
Alright, thank you.
gleaming berry
just google like "Game demos post 2010" or some shit
crimson folio
all of the textures are replaced are replaced with dave
lucid trench
Games screwed over by too much fan input are few and far between, id say Overwatch is one of the few recent examples where its been detrimental
vagrant trout
known of those were popping up
lucid trench
You guys are doing good
vagrant trout
all stuff from like ign, kotaku and gamespot
gleaming berry
I have a philosophy on fan feedback
if a few people say something is broken, its probably not a big deal
if a shitload of people say something is broken, FIX IT
dim valve
If they don't end their comments with chur, DELETE
gleaming berry
like it's pretty easy to tell whats an actual problem and whats just some subjective feedback
thorn trout
it's a pretty good philosophy
echo epoch
Seriously release a version of Dusk on the pirate bay that's just nothing but Big John. Wait, actually, I'd want to play that.
cerulean sun
dusk needs a farting feature or the game is broken!
gleaming berry
like when we released Ep 2, the climbing powerup was clearly broken
so we fix
but like things like boss difficulty and ammo feedback are split
crimson folio
where's my VORE LEVEL
vagrant trout
the only article I was able to find on gamasutra was one actually promoting the use of demos
gleaming berry
so we take more time to look at those
vagrant trout
from 2016
gleaming berry
Like when we did ROTT 2013 we thought the checkpoints were enough
then the game came out
WTF NO QUICKSAVES REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
dim valve
ROTT 2013
gleaming berry
so we made quicksaves work
gleaming berry
No it was not
cerulean sun
i had fun in the beta
gleaming berry
if it wasnt for that game none of us would be here
crimson folio
because it led to this
gleaming berry
^^\
crimson folio
but let's face it
thorn trout
RoTT13 is the reason you're getting Dusk in its current form
vague egret
rott13 is still played and mapped for to this day
gleaming berry
and Amid Evil
thorn trout
also I like RoTT fite me
crimson folio
so is mad sector
dim valve
By two people, Lain
gleaming berry
woah like 6 people
crimson folio
lmfao
vague egret
thats 2 more than law breakers
cerulean sun
i havent played rott multiplayer in forever
dim valve
Someone made two maps for Wrack last year. And?
prisma ivy
lmao
gleaming berry
hey ROTT 2013 is a D+ reboot of a C+ IP from the 90s and it's just perfect as that
dim valve
tru
gleaming berry
we're very proud of our janky baby
crimson folio
that's actually pretty true
gleaming berry
was the first game most of us ever worked on
summer otter
prisma ivy
Yeah ROTT13 is pretty true to the original lol
cerulean sun
i think rott13 did pretty well considering like 22 people on my friend list have it
gleaming berry
I mean it'd be pretty easy to make a new one
dim valve
Because it was mostly stock UE3 assets?
opaque spindle
Even more Big John
prisma ivy
Dont worry it doesent run on anything
gleaming berry
actually everything in ROTT is original lol
cerulean sun
all bosses big john
gleaming berry
insanely so
thorn trout
My favorite is when people are like "be careful, Dusk is being developed by the same guys as RoTT" I want to be like "actually it's worse, it's being developed by a guy who LIKED RoTT"
prisma ivy
lol
opaque spindle
ROTT2021 is going to just be stock unity assets
dim valve
actually it's worse, it's being developed by a guy who LIKED Daikatana
crimson folio
hey
cerulean sun
might be a silly idea but id love to see a silly cheat menu you unlock similar to goldeneye
gleaming berry
DAIKatana is good when patched now reeeeeeeeeeeee
dim valve
he walked right into it tbf
thorn trout
@dim valve yup that too
prisma ivy
Daikatana night 2 when?
opaque spindle
I too like to be made John Romero's bitch. I'm sorry I had too
I do like Daikatana though
mild ginkgo
aliens colonial marines should be a cult classic by now imo
crimson folio
AHAHAHAHA
thorn trout
NB Daikatana matches were unironically a blast
crimson folio
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAHA
dim valve
Daikatana co-op night when?
mild ginkgo
lmao
vagrant trout
@gleaming berry are you suggesting that the people here actually buy daikatana and play it?
opaque spindle
Allens Colonial Marines was a great game of course
lucid trench
Is it bad ive never played quake? Only god knows how much classic doom?
vagrant trout
as in, it's actually much better than you'd assume if it's patched?
prisma ivy
Yeah Daikatana MP is unironically great. Had some great times.
thorn trout
@mild ginkgo I made a few feeble attempts to get a Duke Nukem Forever ball rolling but it didn't reallt catch
dim valve
I would buy Daikatana so I could keep gibbing El Oshcuro and David actually
crimson folio
ahahah he's making fun of my convo with randy pitchford
opaque spindle
Tim Allen Colonial Marines would've been much better though
prisma ivy
Only bought it because of you guys lol
mild ginkgo
yes you should play quake
gleaming berry
Daiktana is 100% worth a playthru with mods that fix the AI and shit
mild ginkgo
if you havent played quake
crimson folio
i actually had like a good convo about alien colonial marines with randy pitchford
mild ginkgo
you should play quake
opaque spindle
Quake is for losers
vagrant trout
I kinda got bored of Quake.
opaque spindle
Real men play Blood 2
dim valve
I was going to get it during the winter sale on gog, but I got red faction instead for some reason
mild ginkgo
make 100% certain you are playing it with the music
gleaming berry
I will not tolerate any Pitchford slander in this channel they have always been very nice to me and have a literal teleporter in their house
lucid trench
Guilty as charged
thorn trout
my Daikatana elevator pitch is, use 1.3 patch, disable AI, if you can get through ep1 you've got two awesome episodes of fun, and one meh episode to follow
echo epoch
Quake is one of the best FPS games ever made, if you have the CD music
crimson folio
and then i asked if his wife was gonna feature as a planet in aliens colonial marines 2
gleaming berry
JESUS DUDE
cerulean sun
doesnt the steam version of quake have the cd music?
dim valve
🔥
lucid trench
It doesnt as far as i know
echo epoch
Sure doesn't
dim valve
the GOG one does, but only thru dosbox
prisma ivy
The steam version lacks CD music
echo epoch
It's easy to find and add
lucid trench
Ill play it once several men in white coats pull me away from Dusk
crimson folio
@gleaming berry you should know i'm chaotic neutral by this point
thorn trout
lol
crimson folio
i'm #1 lurker superboy
thorn trout
chaotic evil at least
thorn trout
Zombie is chaotic neutral
crimson folio
hey if you don't want to be called fat don't have a podcast about that place you own that serves food
i think that's fair
dim valve
yeah
gleaming berry
The pitchford's restaurant? attached to gearbox? It's really good
prisma ivy
Zombie is definitely chaotic neutral
gleaming berry
like some quality avocado toast style shit
crimson folio
nerdvana
gleaming berry
yeah
opaque spindle
mmmmm You're making me hungry Dave
gleaming berry
they got this ham and cheese toast thing
fukin meaaaan as
also they got the fancy coffee
prisma ivy
Lain gets to be lawful good
gleaming berry
Hey if you got a problem with big women you gotta go thru me and @thorn trout
mild ginkgo
food is good, to be fair
lucid trench
Are lurkers just true neutral?
thorn trout
this is true
frozen heart
define "big"
gleaming berry
SIGRUN ENGEL
frozen heart
like how big are we speaking
gleaming berry
JAJAJAJA
mild ginkgo
I FUCKIN KNEW IT
echo epoch
If she ain't 380 she ain't a real lady
gleaming berry
crimson folio
and that's not me being mean
opaque spindle
DAVE!
frozen heart
dave pls
gleaming berry
A E S T H E T I C
crystal vessel
D A V E
thorn trout
loooooool
opaque spindle
Dave x Sigrun by Dave Oshry pls do not hate
frozen heart
HES FOUND THE LOOPHOLE
echo epoch
Oh man spoilers
exotic ibex
dave's above the law
prisma ivy
I feel like Im supposed to mute you
thorn trout
@frozen heart I mean, I'm ok with pretty big :P
cerulean sun
lucid trench
That picture is funnier in context
balmy sluice
whats going on in this cha- 
!
prisma ivy
Conflicted feelings
gleaming berry
lucid trench
More to hold onto
opaque spindle
Dave pls
vagrant trout
DAVE WHAT ARE YOU DOING
crimson folio
i bet she smells like saurkraut and dirty pussy
opaque spindle
and chocolate
frozen heart
gleaming berry
Kristy pitchford is super cool and a fukin Queen around the industry and I will tolerate no slander of her
echo epoch
When admins break the rules it's like god creating a rock too heavy to lift
crimson folio
it's not slander
dim valve
when lorelei winds up being fat in ROTT2013 2 I'll know whose idea it was
crimson folio
but i will respect your wishes
lucid trench
Its only slander if its false
frozen heart
i'll just say i havea disagreements with gearbox
opaque spindle
Do I have to be nice to myself though
crimson folio
bein nice is for BITCHES
lucid trench
Im half tempted to try ROTT13 now
crimson folio
it's fun
prisma ivy
!bullying
hollow ivyBOT
cerulean sun
WHAT YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED ROTT13 B&
mild ginkgo
if we wanna talk thicc
dim valve
lorelei and thi will suddenly be 300 pounds and all the male characters will be 5'6
mild ginkgo
frozen heart
LOOOOOOOOOOOL
opaque spindle
ROTT13 is fine but its really really fucking Janky
mild ginkgo
my boy gabe got the BODY
opaque spindle
Like it feels just bad to play at points
no offense to those who worked on it though
But damn
lucid trench
Ill give it a go just to see how dusks improved
opaque spindle
The game is fucking rough
dim valve
Hey, who wants to shittalk Strafe tonight?
frozen heart
oh no
thorn trout
uh oh
echo epoch
/r/gamingcirclejerk
mild ginkgo
none of that here
dim valve
Serious Sam 2 is a good game btw
vagrant trout
what?
mild ginkgo
we dont shittalk strafe in this discord
vagrant trout
strafe's fine now.
prisma halo
just strafe around that conversation, please
frozen heart
I liked strafe
prisma ivy
Also
mild ginkgo
ayyy lmao
prisma ivy
hollow ivyBOT
frozen heart
SOTP
dim valve
just throw a grenade when you're being overwhelmed with that conversation, hank
exotic ibex
too bad being overwhelmed is how i live.
exotic ibex
none of this tossin nades while firin minigun bullshit
frozen heart
imagine hank
lucid trench
Pacifist running some levels has gotten slightly easier now i know some exploits
exotic ibex
YES
lucid trench
Ive at least played serious sam
exotic ibex
as long as i have to physically swing it
cerulean sun
damn i want to try VR
frozen heart
probably
cerulean sun
i want it for racing games
cerulean sun
VR seems so good for racing games
frozen heart
i feel like it was the wrong choice
echo epoch
This is good Dusk talk
thorn trout
@dim valve booooooo
boooooooooooooooo
cerulean sun
DUSKVR
dim valve
i've shitpost so much tonight I actually can't tell which one that was directed at
frozen heart
every channel is #bnnuy-and-the-jits when dave is here
lucid trench
I just used to be too hooked on Doom to get into any other similar shooters
thorn trout
@echo epoch lol I think we're all just letting it go the same way they let wildfires run their course
dim valve
Dusk 2 will be outsourced to vegans who will have Dusk Dude proclaim his hatred of bacon in the first map
there
worst zinger for you
thorn trout
boooooooooooooooooo
dim valve
Dusk 2 will have a grenade system, calling it now
lucid trench
Itll be open world
cerulean sun
DUSK guy is just an organic meat farmer leave him alone 😭
frozen heart
implying dusk 1 gets released
vagrant trout
we need to talk about this https://twitter.com/DUSKdev/status/950565023172067328
Twitter
frozen heart
analog marsh
What does the tweet say?
vagrant trout
Twitter
analog marsh
-too lazy to click-
lucid trench
There are Dusk Fanfics?
thorn trout
I dunno Dave tweeted that, ask him
vagrant trout
@gleaming berry
analog marsh
Just got around to Ep2 a few days ago. Finished it yesterday morning. Liked it quite a lot.
Loved getting spoopified
Reminded me a lot of Half Life.
mild ginkgo
spoops are fun
lucid trench
You shouldnt have went into the ruins
analog marsh
I go where I want
Even when I'm not supposed to be there.
Still too m uch ammo, though. :3
lucid trench
Even on Intruder Mode?
lucid trench
Yeah, Cero Meido on intruder mode. Gotta be at least a little less trigger happy
vagrant trout
I played Cero Meido on intruder difficulty up until Erebus Reactor.
analog marsh
Don't think I found the secret level
vagrant trout
the hwat
analog marsh
But Infernal Machine was great.
lucid trench
I think they got a good balance with ammo this time
analog marsh
Eeeh
fair mirage
Hey if you got a problem with big women you gotta go thru me and David
AND ME
analog marsh
I think there's way too much ammo in Ep2 on Cero
vagrant trout
I'm still waiting for Dave to reply about that Dusk fanfiction thing
analog marsh
Most of my time playing it I was just letting bolts, grenades, and rivits sit there because I was always maxed out
dim valve
I'm still shocked people still post genuine Dusk content on here
mild ginkgo
gotta remember that the game is balanced around sickle starts
analog marsh
And it wasn't hard to keep maxed or mostly maxed on stuff like shotguns and rifles
vagrant trout
exactly what I've been saying points
dim valve
I learned more about Dave, David, and drek then I ever wanted to learn tonight... 😐
hide your powerlevel, geez
lucid trench
Just like old doom was based on pistol starts
analog marsh
Even then, still feels a little bit overboard
vagrant trout
and quake was based on shotgun starts
mild ginkgo
did you play the sickle starts?
lucid trench
Which is why i think Cero Meido Intruder mode is the de-facto standard
analog marsh
Even DOOM didn't feel flush with ammo with just the pistol start
Or with a good amount of ammo at level start
That's been my experience at least
lucid trench
e2m9 starts you with 4 rivets and thats basically it
vagrant trout
Twitter
dim valve
@vagrant trout it's already happened 👀
solar olive
@analog marsh
analog marsh
Even with sickle starts, it's kind of too much
Even then, more often than not players are probably going to have the pistol and shotgun most of the time
dim valve
I don't see it, maybe in E1 but not in E2
analog marsh
Not a huge amount, just a tad.
dim valve
You have to remember that not every player has 100% accuracy
analog marsh
I mean, neither do I
crystal vessel
E2's ammo is perfectly fine lol
vagrant trout
you'll have to think carefuly about how you use your ammo
mild ginkgo
e1 DEFINITELY has an ammo problem
dim valve
you need to adjust it for all the people who miss 5 shotgun shots
before landing that final shot
solar olive
e1 is kinda like an introduction to the game
vagrant trout
maybe you shouldn't to encourage people to have good aim in a twitch shooter?
analog marsh
My aim's not the best, but there's still more than enough to make up for several missed shots
mild ginkgo
david has already stripped back a bit of the e1 ammo
anyways, im curious what your intent is in reducing the ammo
dim valve
@vagrant trout Singleplayer is more for everyone, multiplayer was made for the hardcore crowd
mild ginkgo
no, but pickup amount is reduced in cm
crystal vessel
Ahhh
dim valve
huh
vagrant trout
that's not an excuse for something being unbalanced
dim valve
But E2 has decent ammo balance, the only thing I had too much ammo for was the mortar and that's only because I never use it ever
crystal vessel
^
dim valve
I used it all of one time in E2M8 when I finally ran out of both shells AND hunting rifle rounds
vagrant trout
mortar was my discount riveter
analog marsh
The reason I think it'd be nice to reduce the amount of ammo, in general, in the levels is that right now it seems there's too much. Enough that you don't really ever need to worry.
mild ginkgo
i feel like thats skirting the question
vagrant trout
it'd be nice if that's something you have to consider. part of the challenge.
vagrant trout
The player is challenged and his to apply themself to overcoming it
dim valve
Welders everywhere, all the time
analog marsh
Placing more emphasis on having good aim, and not wasting ammo
vagrant trout
that's the point
analog marsh
And giving a reason to hunt secret areas
dim valve
Big Johns in every secret
dim valve
Cowgirls behind every starting spawn point
vagrant trout
ask what the point is in having any difficulty besides accessible at that point
analog marsh
Because there's so much around that I could waste it and still have plenty to top off
vagrant trout
people like challenging themselves
vagrant trout
and weapons
vagrant trout
and powerups
mild ginkgo
sure
its a pickup of some kind
and i feel its weird that you are trying to balance the game around secrets
when they are meant to be just that, secret
mild ginkgo
Since right now, I find them, and I'm like
"Oh, it's JUST ammo"```That would be so cool if E3 had some kind of puzzle where you can only get a key with a secret climbing powerup, and the key either unlocks a shortcut or a secret exit
mild ginkgo
giving a reason to hunt secrets
analog marsh
Yes, "And"
vagrant trout
90s shooters always were balanced around them. if you didn't keep your eye out for them and take an effort to hunt for them you were at a disadvantage
crystal vessel
What does the and change
analog marsh
And not wasting ammo
mild ginkgo
not wasting ammo IS aiming better
vagrant trout
not wasting ammo for weapons that you don't need to be using at a certain time as well
gleaming berry
ammo in Ep 2 is pretttttty great
analog marsh
Not wasting ammo can be both having better aim and not just spamming your shots
gleaming berry
ep 1 theres too much but we scaled it back
dim valve
The build engine games are brutal without secrets on their hard difficulties
dim valve
Look out synteks
jade root
try sucking at the game
mild ginkgo
if you're spamming, you arent aiming well
vagrant trout
are you arguing that the ammo balance is fine how it is or that it just shouldn't be considered at all?
mild ginkgo
unless you are
in which case the ammo isnt really wasted?
but yeah
thats just my opinion on it
its hard to balance the game around secrets
vagrant trout
like it seems more that there's resistance towards changing it in any way rather than the way it is is fine right now
analog marsh
I just think that there's too much ammo, to the point that you never need to really worry about being terribly low on it
vagrant trout
ammo balance is a part of a map's design
crystal vessel
Ep2 has fine ammo
analog marsh
Or having to be all that careful about not wasting it
crystal vessel
Syrix have you played it?
dim valve
CandiBunni is like those people who complain about bullet hell shootemups being too easy, not realizing that 99% of the people who try them have trouble getting past the first level
mild ginkgo
nah i dont think so
analog marsh
No need to be mocking.
mild ginkgo
i think theyre looking for something else to do in the game
that being ammo management
dim valve
That's mocking?
mild ginkgo
which is fine
vagrant trout
yes I have, and I'm not saying that I agree that the ammo in either episode isn't where I should be, but it seems ridiculous to me that someone would say "Oh why does the balance of how ammo and resources are given out to the player matter at all?"
mild ginkgo
nobody said ammo balance doesnt matter
jade root
i know i had to manage ammo a bit in e2
analog elk
ammo balance doesn't matter 😏
crystal vessel
I had to as well
mild ginkgo
lol
crystal vessel
Switching weapons all the time
crystal vessel
And not because I was out of ammo either
I switched so I wouldn't run out of ammo
mild ginkgo
Most of the time I find myself only ever using the shotguns, pistols, assault rifle, and on occasion the hunting rifle
crystal vessel
on occasion
mild ginkgo
most of the time you found yourself using all of the weapons
vagrant trout
it seemed like that way to me, because you've been resisting the core point of changing any sort of balance for that at all rather than the balance for it now being where it should be. like you consider it almost incidental that the way the ammo is placed out is like it is, and that there isn't any thought put behind it
mild ginkgo
that arent the power weapons
analog marsh
Even then, I didn't have much trouble topping off with those.
gleaming berry
I'd say @analog marsh is on the better end of the spectrum we can't balance the game for all the good good players
remember most people are very bad at dusk
and on CM difficulty people are REALLY bad
beyond that it's gonna take mods to balance it
vagrant trout
so you'd rather accomodate for people not willing to get better than?
gleaming berry
for super skilled players
vagrant trout
than the people who are already going to be experienced with the game?
dim valve
Hey, remember the Stop Skeletons From Fighting stream?
mild ginkgo
a skilled player can still have fun with too much ammo
vagrant trout
that's going to be the same for every game
analog marsh
I'm not saying to balance just for like, the "leet super hardcore" people.
gleaming berry
Candi is literally the first person we've seen who says Ep 2 has too much ammo
mild ginkgo
a bad player cant have fun with scarce ammo
analog marsh
Just voicing my thoughts that I, personally, think there's a bit too much ammo in EP2
gleaming berry
I still think theres too many rivets :-p
mild ginkgo
yeah totally
analog marsh
Keywords "A bit". It wouldn't take too much scaling back
vagrant trout
okay, then maybe they should consider putting in the effort to become experienced with the game so they can feel the reward of accomplishing something difficult?
dim valve
El Oshcuro is basically saying what I was saying with my analogy about shootemup players
vagrant trout
like a video game?
dim valve
@vagrant trout nah, just put big fat QTEs on screen
gleaming berry
no @vagrant trout we have to try to balance the game for the median, not the exception
unless you just want to make a game hard as balls
like cupehad
which is not our goal
analog marsh
I'm not trying to come off as elitist or anything. That's not at all my intent.
thorn trout
@vagrant trout thing is, that's not a good attitude to have if you don't want a lot of negative reviews and angry players :P
jade root
CUPHEAD WAS MEMORIZATION DAVE
dim valve
wait for the workshop maps
mild ginkgo
cuphead also wasnt fun
gleaming berry
noooooooooo Contra is memorization Cuphead is fukin hard
also the patterns change
u cant even memorize
Cuphead reeeeeee
I wish I could play it lol
vagrant trout
I'm not saying it is, but saying you're deliberately making the game easy at the expense of people who aren't even amazing, just average is a bit concerning
jade root
idk once i learned the patterns
mild ginkgo
cuphead was just contra with a pretty art style
vagrant trout
prey and bioshock were both games ruined by poor balance.
gleaming berry
DUSK is not easy lol
analog marsh
But ultimately there wasn't much payoff for me when I did.
jade root
dont worry we are gonna add sick hentai pics to each secret
gleaming berry
DUSK skales very well right now from easy to hard
mild ginkgo
you say RUINED about games that sold millions of copies
analog marsh
Maybe top me off a few shots, but that was it for the majority of it
gleaming berry
scales*
gleaming berry
both!
mild ginkgo
both
vagrant trout
because you can do both
analog marsh
I remember there was this one room where there were tons of individual shotgun shells surrounding some crossbow bolts
gleaming berry
We think we've struck a good balance so far with DUSK
analog marsh
And I found it, and I grabbed maybe a few
But the room was still, like, stuffed with shells
The Guardian boss was a neat little thing
jolly pelican
I'd argue I need all those rivets to check for wendigos
analog marsh
That had me actually using the riviter
jade root
pistol ammo for wendigos
analog marsh
And the grenade launcher, for the first time
prisma ivy
The moment I hear a wendigo the pistols come out
analog marsh
I've never found much use for the GL
exotic ibex
mortar is waifu
jolly pelican
I find the grenade launcher to be.....
exotic ibex
dont insult mortar
jolly pelican
A discount riveter.
analog marsh
It just feels kind of useless
exotic ibex
mortar is a wonderful gun and doesnt need to be put down
prisma ivy
HERE WE GO
jade root
YO Y DOES MORTAR LOOK LIK RIVETER
analog marsh
I did :p
mild ginkgo
and its so useful lmao
exotic ibex
mortar is best waifu
prisma ivy
You don't use the riveter for boss encounters?
analog marsh
It was just better to use the Riviter
mild ginkgo
mortar is incredible
crystal vessel
Mortar can fuck up crowds real good
jolly pelican
It's got good airbust potential.
exotic ibex
riveter is for when every motherfucker in the room needs to die ASAP
prisma ivy
I fucked up momma with the mortar
analog marsh
I could just use the shotgun, riviter, or AR for crowds, though
jolly pelican
Nothing like airburst
prisma ivy
Or any cowgirl
thorn trout
the thing is, as a player it's very easy to be like "this is the way I play, why doesn't the game do this this and this that would work better for me." But different people interact with the game in different ways, and you can't cater it perfectly to everyone's different playstyle.
analog marsh
I just ducked back and forth around the chamber Mama was in and used the Hunting Rifle and Shotgun on her
thorn trout
Case in point, I've watched players run out of ammo in ep1
jolly pelican
Also, figured out the Y axis isn't locked when jumping.
thorn trout
an episode I would consider ridiculously saturated with ammo
jolly pelican
Attempts to hit sick sniper shots were failed.
vagrant trout
okay, but in that case you're catering to someone that is actually just bad and shouldn't of done that in the first place
thorn trout
and I've heard people talk about using the GL quitge frequently in ep2, whereas others say they never use it
@vagrant trout why?
analog marsh
The GL, to me, is just too inconsistent
thorn trout
the game has to cater to players of all skill levels
jolly pelican
Case in point, I've watched players run out of ammo in ep1
I only did that with the shotguns x2 and only because I was using fast fire.
vagrant trout
because if you're running out of ammo it's because of poor decisions and skill?
jolly pelican
And I didn't quite realize the shotguns x2 have super accuracy.
thorn trout
yes, and those people still have a right to enjoy the experience
analog marsh
Do different difficulties adjust how much health and ammo pickups there are on levels?
vagrant trout
at the expense of people trying at all?
crystal vessel
Here let me go get the screenshot of what 500 said just a while ago
thorn trout
@analog marsh that would definitely be ideal. The reason I don't do that is because it causes all sorts of havok since you can adjust difficulty on the fly.
echo epoch
I was talking with @worn moon earlier about the difficulty in DUSK. I think the first two difficulties are useless, you'd have to be playing with a Guitar Hero controller to have a challenge, and the jump between Normal and CM is pretty harsh. I think projectiles could be sped up in normal imho.
crystal vessel
analog marsh
I think that sort of thing would be great for solving the ammo problem
:p
-giggles-
vagrant trout
and even then it wasn't enough
analog marsh
But yea, having difficulty adjustable mid game is tricky with a system like that.
thorn trout
@vagrant trout We have literally heard one complaint about ammo in ep2
vagrant trout
-raises hand also-
echo epoch
Hard to be objective about difficulty when you've played a lot of FPS games in the past, though. -giggles-
echo epoch
I love the Mortar
exotic ibex
yall got poor tastes in waifus
jade root
i prefer the mortar to the riveter
mild ginkgo
what about the mortar is inconsistent?
jade root
its so much fun to use
analog marsh
I never found any reason to use the Mortar over the Riviter
prisma eagle
This is what I will dream of tonight 😃
vagrant trout
appealing to what the majority of your playerbase is telling you to do on every decision isn't the best way to design things.
analog marsh
If I want to deal with crowds, I can just use the Riviter if they're close.
crystal vessel
Appealing to two people is?
exotic ibex
but what about dealing with crowds you cant see?
analog marsh
But I could also just shotgun them
echo epoch
I mean the Mortar sucks in DW, let's be real, but it's probably one of my favorite weapons.
exotic ibex
no it doesnt
echo epoch
TIL the shotgun shoots around corners
vagrant trout
good game design isn't all about mass appeal
analog marsh
I've never been in a situation where I've needed to shoot around corners
vagrant trout
no
gleaming berry
Nor is it about two people on a discord
mild ginkgo
so the game has bad design because your ammo is too full?
gleaming berry
trust us, we look at ALL feedback
analog marsh
I'm not saying design the game around me
vagrant trout
That's not what we're saying at all 500.
Don't take this as a takedown of the entire game
analog marsh
All I did was give my thoughts on ammo in EP2
gleaming berry
Episode 2 so far is a pretty sweet spot for both ammo availablility and difficulty
echo epoch
The mortar is amazing. See a bunch of enmies? Back around the corner and spam. If you can't find a place to use it, you aren't trying hard enough.
gleaming berry
oh no and we hear you
and it's noted
but it's not an opinion worth changing the ammo for as of yet
analog marsh
Never felt I needed to duck behind a corner and spam the Mortar
thorn trout
here's the Dusk game design hierarchy:
- what I think
- what Dave thinks
- what QA thinks
- what majority players think
analog marsh
Could just use the hunting rifle, assault rifle, or riviter
echo epoch
Then you are playing on Accesible
analog marsh
Or if they're close, the shotguns
echo epoch
Or Episode 1
thorn trout
we don't blindly make decisions based on what the majority says
analog marsh
I only play Cero
thorn trout
but when we get to that bottom level, that's how the decision is made
gleaming berry
I mean I wish there was nothing but rifle ammo everywhere heh
thorn trout
internally we're all happy with where ammo is in ep2, based on the sort of game Dusk is
echo epoch
Also mortar jumping
dim valve
Reminder that when you make a game that caters only to one specific playstyle, you get any modern FPS game
analog marsh
Never had a reason to mortar jump
thorn trout
If I were making something more like a Build game I'd want it stricter
echo epoch
@dim valve don't make me post that copypasta you did earlier
jolly pelican
Mortar jumping is fun.
dim valve
Do it, but with New Blood games instead
analog marsh
Fun sure, but I'd rather not waste the health when I don't need to
echo epoch
I mean I've never had a reason to use the Crossbow either but I do it because it's fun
dim valve
You say Destiny 2, I say Lazer Type
vagrant trout
modern fps games tend to have the exact flaw we're mentioning
thorn trout
Dusk isn't quite as focused on resource management, because you're supposed to have some leeway to experiment and do fun stuff
gleaming berry
yeah people play a tron of diffrerent ways
jolly pelican
He says as I hoard riverter ammo through episode one.
vagrant trout
generally speaking someone's going to do whatever's most effective though
analog marsh
It's the one where you find that big energy tower
echo epoch
Probably Episode bepis
vagrant trout
I'm not gonna start using dual pistols on every single enemy because I think they have the coolest animations
analog marsh
Don't recall the level number
jolly pelican
You're gonna use the dual shotguns because they have the coolest?
analog marsh
But by the end of that, I'd killed everything, and the only guns I didn't have full of ammo were the assault rifle, and I think the shotgun
crystal vessel
Candi have you played and beaten Hell Revealed 2 for Doom? Actual honest question
analog marsh
Never heard of Hell Revealed 2
jade root
play it
mild ginkgo
this is the biggest mistake in playing games possible
jade root
and get back to us
echo epoch
The pistols with two or more rapid fire powerups 😗 perfect sound
mild ginkgo
assuming someone is going to play optimally
exotic ibex
no one ever plays optimally
exotic ibex
lmao
echo epoch
Min/maxing isn't fun, who'd figure
exotic ibex
thats how i get that W
mild ginkgo
his opponent assumes hes gonna make the smart play
but he makes the dumb one and catches them off guard
vagrant trout
it's not about min maxing
exotic ibex
yeah that is actually a super bad habit of mine.
dim valve
There's always another solution @analog marsh : you could play on Duskmare
jade root
^
analog marsh
Just cheap
vagrant trout
you shouldn't balance a game to be easier because someone's deliberately using shittier weapons or playing worse
jade root
i can agree wit that
analog marsh
It's why I never played Nightmare in classic DOOM
echo epoch
Or not play optimally and use the other weapons for fun, the whole point of playing a game (fun).
mild ginkgo
we didnt do that though
crystal vessel
Nightmare is a speedrun mode really
analog marsh
Constantly respawning enemies is cheap, and it removes the satisfaction of killing them in the first place
vagrant trout
having a challenge you can apply yourself at is fun
thorn trout
@vagrant trout there are many things about Dusk you "shouldn't" do but it's worked out pretty well so far
echo epoch
I'd say the game is a challenge, you can't just breeze through it
icy kernel
Even when I play EP2 on CM with Intruder Mode, I still have no problem with ammo - however, I also died I think only once on my first playthrough of EP1 (which was also on CM difficulty) and I have easily over a thousand hours of playtime across various 90's FPS games, so I while I would like an experience that requires me to manage resources more carefully, I recognize that I am far above the average player in skill level and I can just wait for mod support to tweak things to my liking.
analog marsh
The only level I can recall giving me a real workout was E2M5
vagrant trout
we're saying that because of the ammo economy issues you certainly can more than you should
analog marsh
That was pretty fun, though
vagrant trout
same candi
dim valve
@icy kernel is that a copypasta?
vagrant trout
erebus reactor was the only level in the game I had to turn down the difficulty to accomplish
echo epoch
I have over 300 confirmed kills on the cultist
analog marsh
If I pay attention it's fine
It's just when I get careless or don't pay attention that the only trouble comes
mild ginkgo
e2m5 is like one of the easiest level wut
icy kernel
No, I was being honest. I've played far too many Doom mods.
mild ginkgo
thats like the fun cool level
echo epoch
It'd be easier with a map.
vagrant trout
you really like pushing that don't you?
balmy sluice
:^)
echo epoch
Nah I just want a map added
dim valve
What if Dusk had maps and they ran off ammo? E2 would be way too easy then
prisma ivy
Don't hold your breath
jade root
dusk doesnt need a map you fuckstick the level design is fine shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
vagrant trout
what jabronii said
mild ginkgo
mod 👏 it 👏 in 👏
echo epoch
(It's a joke)
balmy sluice
Duskworld needs a map that shows where everyone is
jade root
^^^
balmy sluice
get on it 500
vagrant trout
why not
vagrant trout
just make a map like doom
mild ginkgo
duskworld
analog marsh
I hope DuskWorld turns out good
vagrant trout
so you still have to explore to figure out the map
analog marsh
Would love to play that on a regular basis
vagrant trout
and nothing of value of lost at all
echo epoch
Lol oh my god why did i mention the map
mild ginkgo
its not viable to add at this point
vagrant trout
I know this
echo epoch
It's like the shitpost button
vagrant trout
it's ridiculous that people are still saying it just shouldn't be added because of design reasons though, not technical ones
dim valve
@echo epoch what if Dusk had a map but it was just a map to find fat chicks
vagrant trout
build engine games didn't have their maps designed like doom's either and the feeling of exploring those wasn't compromised
echo epoch
Did I go back in time to like 3 days ago because I'm having an overwhelming amount of deja vu
analog marsh
I've never felt like I needed a map in Dusk.
dim valve
What E2 really needs are lightning guards who will steal your weapons and ammo imo
fair mirage
what if Dusk had a map but it was just a map to find fat chicks
this would make dusk infinitely better
thorn trout
Build engine wasn't true 3d, and the times it faked room over room design the map became really messy
gleaming berry
DUSK definitely doesnt need a map
thorn trout
that's the issue
gleaming berry
if u get lost in DUSK then we did bad at design
analog marsh
Everywhere looks unique enough that Ic an get my way
thorn trout
there's no good way to do an overlay map in true 3d (ESPECIALLY with Dusk levels), and the levels should be intuitive enough that you don't need one so it's a waste to spend dev time on a complicated 3d volume map like nuDoom
echo epoch
I'm seriously having flashbacks
dim valve
for a second I misread that as nutDoom
thorn trout
nutDoom lol
flint python
finna nutDoom
echo epoch
HDoom is nutDoom 😉
analog marsh
And the soundtrack only had a few memorable songs for me