Take into consideration that the maps in this game aren't that linear either.
#dusk-duskworld-dungeonsofdusk
vagrant trout
mild ginkgo
We literally spawn a trail of enemies in for you to follow to the door for the key you pick up
Like that is programmed in
cosmic urchin
i dunno, i don't have an issue with dusk's maps, occasionally confused in episode 2 particularly m7 but that was about it and more of my own lack of observation
vagrant trout
no such thing happened on granary
mild ginkgo
Granary is the exception, not the rule
sullen carbon
I don't know if memorizing is the expectation, but I think the game expects a little backtracking and such
vagrant trout
It's not the only one.
cosmic urchin
and it's not even awful backtracking
echo epoch
This is the first time I've heard of anyone getting lost without looking for secrets.
mild ginkgo
It's the biggest one by far
sullen carbon
Which one is granary?
balmy sluice
But granary was an open square-ish map
cosmic urchin
e2m1
echo epoch
With like two buildings
sullen carbon
Oh that's right
vagrant trout
What concerns me more is that people are coming up with more excuses for why a map isn't important rather than why it would actively make the game worse for them.
mild ginkgo
A lot of those maps had that issue, and specifically were redesigned to remedy the issue
sullen carbon
Yeah, my buddy did get pretty lost on e2m1
echo epoch
But yeah E2M1 needs a touch and I think that's planned, right?
mild ginkgo
Nobody said that it would make the game worse
vagrant trout
Indeed they haven't.
vagrant trout
But people are trying to downplay it's importance actively. There's no good reason why there shouldn't be one, only why they think the lack of one doesn't hurt the game as much for them personally.
balmy sluice
It's more of people saying why it's not needed
crimson folio
if you need a map, make sure it leads to the uninstall button
echo epoch
@vagrant trout Not making excuses for anything, never said it would make the game worse at all, it would actually be neat. However, there are tons of things that are more important, easier to implement, asked for by the community, etc. that take precedent.
It would also be nice to have a driving section or something, but it's not needed.
mild ginkgo
Some of them are design reasons
crimson folio
here's a big reason why: because the small ass dev team of one has better shit to do
mild ginkgo
Verticality is hard to convey
summer otter
doom maps are awesome and immediately readable because 2d world
hence quake doesn't have map
mild ginkgo
Escher labs in 2d is roughhhh
vagrant trout
But that's more out of difficulty to accomplish. I understand it probably won't happen, but if it could it certainly should.
sullen carbon
Oh for sure
mild ginkgo
David did a lot to teach the player their surroundings
For example, granary
The first key you need is blue
limpid comet
the maps go in the strategy guide, duh
mild ginkgo
Which is placed directly in front of the red door
vagrant trout
I completely forgot there was a blue door until I opened it from the other side
because I found the side entrance first
not everyone navigates these levels the same way. that's the sort of level design you'd come to expect from these games.
crimson folio
if that's why it's expected then how fone no one is having this problem dog
vagrant trout
there's been several examples already of people having this problem
mild ginkgo
if you took the alternate route, its hard to make both work perfectly
its something that we're keenly aware of, and will do things to fix, game isnt done yet
but in terms of a map
im not certain theres a good implementation that wouldnt be a confusing mess
echo epoch
E2M1 can be messy and this has been addressed, otherwise I'm not sure who's getting lost where.
crimson folio
all of those people aren't around anymore; i took care of them; they were problems
mild ginkgo
i cant really think of a 3d fps map with verticality that was anything but a mess
its not like we didnt try to come up with one
crimson folio
the best map ever done in a 3d game was Luigi's Mansion
vagrant trout
I mean
summer otter
ive scoured entire maps throughout bethesda gameplay, if ppl r getting lost and depending on maps in well together single level experiences, it on them for not paying attention and building a mental map
balmy sluice
E2M1 is messy, but it should not be a huge problem if you played episode 1 first imo
echo epoch
If id couldn't do it in Quake, there's an issue.
vagrant trout
I think it's already been brought up but doom 16's map was perfect
crimson folio
doom 16's map made Tetris look like a flight sim
echo epoch
Doom 16's map was a mess.
mild ginkgo
man i cannot help but disagree with that
vagrant trout
In what ways was it a mess?
limpid comet
doom 16's map was also pretty simple, mostly paths between arenas
mild ginkgo
i look at that map and it just makes me sad
vagrant trout
For me if I ever had issues figuring out exactly where I need to be the map always solved it as well as it needed to.
echo epoch
It didn't convey height very well at all, the colors were garbage, it didn't reflect the actual level geometry at all.
crimson folio
^
vagrant trout
it did though
echo epoch
It didn't though
balmy sluice
Just add the locator from dead space
opal plover
Well it indicated the path without the level geometry cluttering it
crimson folio
sounds like your objective opinion is shitty friendo
limpid comet
I didn't have any problems with it
sullen carbon
I dunno how perfect or imperfect it was, but I will say bethesda/id probably had at least 20 more people working on said map
summer otter
it wasn't bad, it wasn't great, the game would have been the same without it, maybe better
vagrant trout
Who said it was objective?
crimson folio
me
sullen carbon
Not to mention the hundreds of others that helped make Doom 2016
mild ginkgo
crimson folio
ignore me I'm shitposting
vagrant trout
Yes, 16's map was great
crimson folio
yeah that's a mess
limpid comet
It's fine?
mild ginkgo
i think that map is awful
vagrant trout
So you're saying you couldn't look at it and figure out where you were going to go next or where you were in relation to the rest of the map?
summer otter
I think it was unnecessary because linear levels didn't need a map to indicate the places where secrets HAVE to be
crimson folio
fuck maps
echo epoch
Quake didn't have a map. Neither did Half-Life. GG.
summer otter
fuck maps
crimson folio
the levels aren't arcade dimensions here
mild ginkgo
i had trouble with the map in doom16, yes
vagrant trout
half-life was linear, and quake should've had one
mild ginkgo
thats just my personal experience
limpid comet
Quake could of used a map tbh
crimson folio
quake shouldn't have had one
vagrant trout
Why?
limpid comet
the levels aren't exactly uh... convayent
echo epoch
Part of the game is learning the level layout.
opal plover
Well it was good when trying to find a very specific path from a point A and B that were close together.
mild ginkgo
some argue its part of the expereince
crimson folio
^
mild ginkgo
adds anxiety, frustration, confusion, fear
vagrant trout
learning the level layout isn't fun, and there's ways of doing that while still having a map
such as
an automap from doom, that only reveals where you've already been
limpid comet
I sure do love getting lost in grey hallways 
max fun
echo epoch
Well, it's a part of the experience. Doesn't matter that you don't enjoy it.
crimson folio
you should be lost in quake, it's about a fuckin old god
summer otter
all the map did 4 me in doom16 was spoil where secrets were to the point where I purposely avoided it
vagrant trout
getting lost wasn't an enjoyable experience in any way and staying in the exact same area for a long length of time certainly did add any more to said atmosphere
sullen carbon
I mean this is a lot of passion over maps, on both sides, I don't think anyone can really argue that the game would be more shit if a map were included, but also, David and QA probably have a lot more to worry about like Ep 3, DuskWorld, etc., and if someone wanted to make maps for Dusk it would be possible to do so with the sdk
echo epoch
I literally haven't heard of anyone getting lost outside of E2M1
summer otter
quake, people have the desire to see the map because timewise its not far off from doom 2 in their mind, and that game had a tasty map. but its just not doable to mapthings out in a readable sense for the 3d levels
echo epoch
Until now
balmy sluice
If you can't have fun playing a game that requires you to learn it's maps, I don't think you should play it.
echo epoch
Especially an old school FPS
vagrant trout
you enjoyed moving through grey hallways over and over again for over five minutes trying to figure out where the next door is?
crimson folio
maybe next time you play you should open your eyes, asshole
mild ginkgo
lets remain civil
opal plover
But yeah you can't just add a map to a game purposefully designed without a map in mind.
summer otter
getting lost in e2m1 seems crazy
mild ginkgo
its good discourse on the design of games, certainly
sullen carbon
500 has the right idea
limpid comet
Dusk is way better at giving you a feel for the map than Quake, it doesn't help that quake also has like... 2 colors
echo epoch
Are you talking about Dusk or Quake? I never had much problem in Dusk outside of E2M1 for like a minute and looking for secrets.
crimson folio
I'm fuckin wit chu
mild ginkgo
and syrix has valid points, im not saying hes wrong
sullen carbon
Yeah for sure, it'd be silly to say FUCK MAPS
mild ginkgo
i personally dont like doom16's solution, and i cant think of another good 3d map
crimson folio
fuck maps
mild ginkgo
but i also enjoy being lost in games
balmy sluice
^
vagrant trout
Just because someone didn't have problems doesn't mean they won't.
summer otter
there isn't really any amazing 3d maps, the best maps I can think of in 3d games, r still 2d
echo epoch
That was a big part of the fun in Doom. Look at any custom .wad.
vagrant trout
let's also consider the fact that if you don't like using a map in these games
limpid comet
I feel like we are drifting close to the "ink ribbons are good" mentality now
vagrant trout
you could just not use it. if that's your preference
sullen carbon
Yeah, that's part of the charm with old school shooters for me at least
vagrant trout
I don't like carrying weapons between levels, so I use Intruder mode.
I wouldn't tell everyone that does to play the same way.
summer otter
designing an entire feature not currently implemented goes beyond, don't use it if you don't need it
limpid comet
I don't know about that, DooM's map system is way better than wolf 3ds
echo epoch
Also taking all the time and resources to innovate something that hasn't ever really been done well even in AAA games in an indie game of like 5 people to address a singular complaint from one person is insane.
vagrant trout
simply having the option to use it is the best option
mild ginkgo
im CERTAIN there will be a map for the game at some point, i will probably disappoint you to say its unlikely for the initial launch, but when DAWN arrives, dusk will be far more technically viable to support a map
and we might ship one with the sdk, or immediately make a mod for it
echo epoch
Learn the levels, and when the time comes, make a map mod.
vagrant trout
That's fine enough for me. More than likely somebody obsessed with having maps for games like Ross Scott or something will make one themselves.
crimson folio
the best way to go about it, imo, would to have a func_trigger brush entity point to an image of various floor shapes on the same kind of plane/grouping, with enemies being within a fixed range of height
echo epoch
That'd be hard to do with maps like Escher Labs or Old Time Religion
mild ginkgo
i did a bunch of editor overhead screenshots
crimson folio
yeah, exactly
summer otter
it would have been downright weird for dusk alpha level
balmy sluice
@vagrant trout legit question, did you like the locator from dead space? (if you played it)
vagrant trout
Simply hearing that you'll keep trying again, ever, is good enough for me.
I have not played a Dead Space game. @balmy sluice
crimson folio
add a compass and nothing else
mild ginkgo
lol
summer otter
lol
echo epoch
Jesus
vagrant trout
honestly
echo epoch
Not to mention the tunnels
vagrant trout
if you had the colored doors labelled or pointed out, that's fine enough for me
summer otter
the level design doesn't even bespoke need for a map imo
crimson folio
actually a compass would probably do it
sullen carbon
I can see Hank's grave
mild ginkgo
vagrant trout
the only part that trips me up is having to remember exactly where the colored door is. sometimes it's not always one that I've been past either
summer otter
lol oh god
vagrant trout
Sometimes it could be in an area further after you get the key.
echo epoch
Then that's when you explore.
crimson folio
dude how did you beat doom 1
echo epoch
Just like in Doom.
mild ginkgo
usually david is good about design cues to keep you in line
e2m1 is specifically one that we've had trouble with
vagrant trout
those maps are actually fine for me personally @mild ginkgo
mild ginkgo
thats pretty much the only example i dont have an excuse for
because we know the routing is an issue
all the other levels have some design cues to keep you on rails for the most part
also they dont all work lol
echo epoch
"Lighting"
mild ginkgo
limpid comet
I really only had trouble with the mine levels, but they get so much samey looking textures that I sort of zone out
mild ginkgo
e1m9
summer otter
keys in front of doors they r not meant for is kind of the weakest point for me
limpid comet
but that's mine levels in general
vagrant trout
that is actually still more helpful than nothing for me
summer otter
but It shows me the door, either way
mild ginkgo
the mine level is also intentionally confusing
vagrant trout
if someone just drew a big line where the colored doors are that'd be good enough for me
summer otter
I think developing spatial awareness is important to encourage
my handbone is connected to my armbone type things
vagrant trout
if that's a skill people find interesting to learn then let them do so. there's nothing wrong with letting anyone else have a map.
crimson folio
how is that more fun than just exploring
summer otter
I won't argue against the map if its not too much work
echo epoch
But it's too much work for now.
summer otter
no reason to bang head against wall
crimson folio
there's everything wrong with it if that goes against the wishes of the developer or is something that is just a huge time sink
limpid comet
Oh I get the point of mine levels, but I'm also colorblind and an aesthetic player so I sort of despise them on multiple levels
crimson folio
like I get it, but understand
limpid comet
I get that's the point, but still
mild ginkgo
crimson folio
it's a technical clusterfuck
vagrant trout
I know this.
crimson folio
everyone else has been fine
mild ginkgo
thats not true
crimson folio
cept on 1 level
balmy sluice
What does labs look like @mild ginkgo ?
crimson folio
for the most part
mild ginkgo
ill give anyone e2m1
crimson folio
and there's one dev
limpid comet
i got through e2m1 fine 
summer otter
is it becausse of bluedoor?
mild ginkgo
good question
vagrant trout
like we can get past that it's difficult, I know that it's difficult. that's not the issue. it's that I don't agree it would actively make the game worse.
mild ginkgo
ill find out in like 30 minutes, i have to re-pull the source, i just reinstalled windows
echo epoch
Nobody is saying that it would make it worse
limpid comet
I had more trouble with thresher just because of all the blindside projectiles in the main... lobby?
vagrant trout
kooch is
balmy sluice
I hate reinstalls
mild ginkgo
yeah
crimson folio
if the game wants to have a sense or option of disorientation without having to do with the doom thing of flip-flopping linedef flags level to level
and that's 2d
mild ginkgo
if duskworld and dusk werent separate id already have it pulled
but now we gotta wait
vagrant trout
You could just unbind the key that would bring up the map kooch.
balmy sluice
I'm also curious about e2ms if it's not too much of a problem
mild ginkgo
theyre super easy for me to do
for the most part
some levels require some uh
interesting things
vagrant trout
I'm having a hard time understanding what you were talking about.
opal plover
what are you talking about 500?
crimson folio
hypothetically if david didn't want a map, then i'd say that's his call and to against that in his from scratch project would be going against the artistic wishes of the designers
summer otter
top down views of the maps kind of illustrate how current maps r designed without mapping systems in mind
vagrant trout
Is it actually the wishes of the designers for the player to get lost though? And is that a good thing in it of itself either?
balmy sluice
He's just saying it wouldn't hurt if there was one, but understands why there isn't one.
crimson folio
you know what game benefits from not having a real map system? deus ex, because it's about discovery and finding a way though obstacles both on huge and small scales
echo epoch
Still not seeing anyone else getting lost besides E2M1.
crimson folio
really man
vagrant trout
Dusk is about exploring but it isn't about figuring out how to.
crimson folio
yeah, I'd say it is
summer otter
a map won't tell you where you need to go on e2m1
knowing where you have and haven't been will
mild ginkgo
alright, alright, we understand some people dont like maps, and some do :D
lets just
get along
summer otter
crimson folio
lmfao that last bit was a lil too much
mild ginkgo
im gonna post cool screenshots in a few minutes
summer otter
is that allowd
opal plover
Cool screenshots of E3?
mild ginkgo
๐
summer otter
mild ginkgo
๐น
vagrant trout
What's the console key?
mild ginkgo
tilde
opal plover
๐ค
prisma halo
~
mild ginkgo
its not enabled in sp right now
crimson folio
๐ค
echo epoch
G R A V E
crimson folio
it's the cheat key
vagrant trout
But I was told I could IDKFA to get through the level I'm on to get back to where I was.
mild ginkgo
just type idkfa
echo epoch
just type it
summer otter
CAPITAL BACKQUOTE
vagrant trout
ah
echo epoch
just like doom
mild ginkgo
very um, doomish
vagrant trout
You said the exit door was actually right near the entrance?
crimson folio
define near
mild ginkgo
in escher labs, walk directly to the yellow door
vagrant trout
I need to get back to erebus reactor
crimson folio
define boss
prisma halo
boss1
bษs/
informal
noun
noun: boss; plural noun: bosses
1.
a person who is in charge of a worker or organization.
define boss1
prisma halo
thanks google
vagrant trout
all that talk about just having an option for a map and yet I still don't think dark souls should have a difficulty option
crimson folio
define realistically
opal plover
What about the boss at E3M10?
balmy sluice
THE PURGE
mild ginkgo
perfect
balmy sluice
I thought my discord was broken lol
echo epoch
I call em Duke Mages
mild ginkgo
echo epoch
vagrant trout
What's the highest score somebody's gotten in Endless?
unique saffron
At least 3
balmy sluice
You can get a pretty dumb score on lower difficultys.
Cero / endless is where it's at
.... *duskmare
Of course it's on endless. ๐
crimson folio
OH NO WHOS BEEN MENTIONING THE WIKI
i'd love to create an ep2 page one day
one day
jaunty meteor
You can do it today :p
jade root
List of Hostile Factions
Literally Everything
crimson folio
actually it says here on the wiki that the welders are part of the army?
crimson folio
I guess
ye its a lot of headcannon
i didnt add welders and cowgirls to the list tho
i'd say theres a few more
cult/militia, millitary/scientists, demons etc.
i'd say the welder is part of the cult
valid path
yeah i think he was just some worker who got into the cult and slowly went insane or something
opal plover
Nah the welders are the engineers of the facilities.
And anyway dividing the main E2 faction into military and scientists would be way too specific, And even then welders aren't even scientists.
opal plover
Yeah
jaunty meteor
Don't add headcanons to wikis FFS
The point of a wiki is to compile information, not post game theories and headcanons
Especially "trivia", which is useless 99% of the time
crimson folio
ye i know
jaunty meteor
If your contribution begins with "X is probably", "X is likely a reference to", or "X may be inspired by", then you've already blew it
crimson folio
gonna need a grammar and factual cleanup crew for the ep2 pages lol
jaunty meteor
I'm just gonna outright remove like 90% of this
crimson folio
im gonna get to #1 correcting these fucking grammar mistakes lol
don't know if it goes here but... Twitch needs an image
jaunty meteor
Don't bother, I'm purging most of this page
It's awful; I'll just cover the basics
crimson folio
ye please do
jaunty meteor
In the future (and this goes to everyone), use Doomwiki as a reference when deciding how to format wiki pages
You'll save yourself a lot of wasted time
crimson folio
ye thats what i tried to do with this page
a lot of effort though
trying to right down a walkthrough for every single map, etc.
opal plover
Yeah the guy who wrote the cowgirl article also wrote articles about most of the other bosses too. I fixed the Duke bros and grand wizard's pages however.
opal plover
Pretty sure the guy who wrote them was annonymous too, might need to set up a sign in to edit kind of deal.
opal plover
Ok that's good.
crimson folio
jaunty meteor
I updated the Cowgirl article; it's not great but it's LOADS better than it was
crimson folio
ye wow thats a million times better lol
i dig that tactical analysis section
better than blending it with a giant wall of text
fresh onyx
anyone know how to nodraw faces in trenchbroom?
crimson folio
search for the clip texture
jaunty meteor
Clip is not appropriate for only having one face be nodraw
It makes the entire brush invisible
fresh onyx
yeah thats what i was looking for tyvm
can i make the clip brushes transparent? or should i just hide them if i need to use them?
really liking how user friendly trenchbroom is
crimson folio
I don't think the clip texture renders at all
fresh onyx
i mean in the editor
like if i put junk in a hallway and use it to prevent the player getting stuck on crap
fresh onyx
ah sweet
cloud forge
would it be worth it for now trying to get some higher quality screencaps of enemies, and maybe even editing them into transparent images for the sake of a clean looking page/reference?
or would you say just wait until we can rip the models in the sdk and get clean pics that way
gleaming berry
Bless you guys for populating the wiki
๐๐๐
Also thanks for reminding me to send Twitch an image for Dusk
Forgot about that
slate edge
Cowgirl strategy guide ๐๐
give me some recording software and windows movie maker for Win7
EZ
crimson folio
I actually use windows movie maker
slate edge
DM me and give your redit card if you want strategy guide to mama and cowgirls :D
yes, redit card
crimson folio
reddit card
graceful wing
reddit license
supple scroll
sad you cant get windows movie maker anymore
slate edge
that thing was great on win xp
crimson folio
@supple scroll you used to be able to get movie maker here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-hk/help/18614/windows-essentials
but apperently microsoft doesn't host it anymore
but I found this: http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_live.html
heavy mango
I used shotcut, it's not bad tbh. it's free
you probably have to watch a few videos just to know how to do a few things
but it works and it's not bad at all
balmy sluice
I miss windows movie maker
cloud forge
did an example with the rat just cus i knew itd be one of the easier ones to do, but would it be a good idea to make a set of enemy pictures like this, rather than the more jpeggy cropped screengrabs that are on the wiki right now?
echo epoch
Absolutely. How'd you manage that? Greenscreen?
mild ginkgo
cloud forge
@echo epoch just got a good closeup screengrab and used color select to do the heavy lifting
other than that just selected, deleted, and cropped where needed
crimson folio
holy shit i didnt know it was 1988
gleaming berry
It's 2018 I think
echo epoch
Yeah my only experience with that sort of thing is Sony Vegas. I should really finally fuck around with Photoshop or Paint.net
leaden radish
echo epoch
I hated it.
crimson folio
i meant photoshop was released in 1988 but theres no point to explaining that anymore
balmy sluice
The speedrunning time for head cheese should be updated on the wiki, ask @cerulean sun for the time
Pretty sure it's sub 10 now
Ew, you have to merge your twitch account to make a Gamepedia account
cerulean sun
crimson folio
@cerulean sun oh boi he did done did it
dim valve
ok this is old as shit i know but i can't believe there was a whole 100+ post argument over linearity in dusk last night
dusk is fucking simple compared to like, anything TNT ever made for Doom 2
or maybe just Jim Flynn
The one time I got lost in all of Dusk was in E2M4 when I forgot about "the hatch", and even then it wasn't that bad
like if you ever played ROTT (original), you would just ragequit halfway through the shareware
vagrant trout
doom also had a map
cloud forge
e2m1 was the only time i got lost
spent way too much time wandering around after getting keys
but that was likely my fault
dim valve
I only got lost in E2M1 because I was so busy fighting the enemies that I forgot I had to take the tunnel to progress, as shown in the PAX AUS stream
Also, re: doom's map
vagrant trout
I've gotten lost two other times in E2 as well so far
also, you can zoom that map in on specific areas
dim valve
uh, hyperbole
Also
tell david where you got lost so he can pat himself on the back for his devilish level design
btw if you've never played that map, it's good shit ๐ a bioshock remake that works really damn well
sorry, DEmake
i saw that btw
can't hide your shame
solar olive
I think that bioshock doom level was designed by one of those bioshock designers as well =P
dim valve
it was, he even wrote a whole article on why Doom has amazing combat IIRC
crystal vessel
The same one who was in the Double Fine video series about playing Doom with John Romero probably
solar olive
that one
dim valve
JP LeBreton?
crystal vessel
Yeah
dim valve
Probably beating a dead horse here, but Dusk really does the "storytelling through environments" thing well. Much better than even the classics, I would say.
Like, wtf is half of Quake 1?
Thank you shillbot
limpid comet
remember when Machinegames just popped out a quake mission pack?
solar olive
the only thing i never liked that much about quake was how messed up the themes were. I mean, they were all linked through teleporters, but kinda expected to see military bases in one episode, the castle theme in another one, the gothic one on the third one and so on., but they kinda merged all 4 theme in all 4 episodes.
I remember when i played the shareware version i thought it was some levels of each episode merged into one to have a taste of each episode.
Other than that, the game is great and i still play it, despite all these years =P
dim valve
Yeah, we don't know the full story, but there's been bits and pieces leaked out about the development process over the years. Basically, Quake 1 was nothing like it was supposed to be. It was a cobbled-together mess of different designer's ideas. Also, apparently at one point the Reznor soundtrack was different (and better according to Romero)
Also, that Quake mission pack? Better than the entirety of TNC ๐
vagrant trout
because you're meant to be hopping between multiple dimensions @solar olive
that's where the portals lead
frozen heart
It could be related to limitations of the time not really allowing for much ox position or detail to show this
Hence why I would fucking love a single player Quake reboot with the setting of quake 1
But in the meantime I'll keep my eye on Witchfire
flint flume
what?
jaunty meteor
it's a cult leader.
cloud forge
more wiki pics im working on
these seem up to standard?
if so ill just make the rest and pop em up as needed
mild ginkgo
๐ ๐ฏ
cloud forge
rad
i know about idkfa but is there a noclip cheat in-game yet?
only asking for the sake of convenience for getting some screenies of bosses real quick rather than playing thru full levels to get to em
cloud forge
ah, aight
apologies but those pics might be a little later than the others then, wanna get the quickest possible ones done first
which will be common enemies
might do the same for weapons and items if the wiki needs
echo epoch
Dude you're a godsend, take your time.
echo epoch
Same, but I'm not ad skilled, talented, or attractive as you are.
cerulean sun
Needs to be a wiki page just for jerry
Which is the leatherneck at the top of the stairs of e1m1
Hes a fucker
cosmic urchin
jerry's just doing his job
echo epoch
That's Plague
valid path
fucking jerry man
opal plover
Dusk headcannon: Jerry was a dick even to other cultists, he even pushed a red mage once.
dim valve
Who's going to be the wise guy here that lists Mama's voice actor as Justin Roiland?
And mentions that the boost pad glitch in E2M6 is caused by having over 700 FPS?
solar olive
i'm trying to recreate the bug from the jumppads to see if i can report it with some evidence/way to do it. I've managed to record it "by accident" on e1m3, but can't recreate it after i've restarted the game.
Worth mention that bug never happened to me before.
opal plover
It's a steam forum meme
valid path
ah
cerulean sun
What is the link to the dusk wiki?
prisma halo
https://dusk.gamepedia.com/Dusk someone make this page not look like an ad lol
valid path
prisma halo
Try to use https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom as a reference for how the Dusk page should be laid out
cerulean sun
Do it
echo epoch
Well, go play!
stone thistle
you did the right thing
cloud forge
i find it funny how quickly my opinion on dusk changed tbh
like, ill be honest
i was pretty turned off by a lot of the trailer footage
but i saw a pal playing it and bought it for myself and damn
it's kind of fucking amazing
i love it
stone thistle
I always had a good feeling with this one
when I saw those screenshots something was telling me "this is going to be good"
cloud forge
i think i was still a little salty from coming off of STRAFE and having that be a bit of a disappointment and i was thinking this game was gonna fall into the same pit but nah
its amazing
dim valve
The first footage I saw of Dusk was just a complete nobody on Youtube with only a few thousand views and terrible, slow gameplay footage
It looked so bad
Then GGGManLives covered it and the rest was history
stone thistle
hehe
echo epoch
I keep hearing similar things, that people don't like the trailers.
dim valve
It wasn't a trailer, it was some recordings of the pre-pre-pre-alpha level with the field and the tractor
It took them like 12 minutes
IIRC
cloud forge
to be honest
the trailers made it look really uninspired
which isnt the case at all
it's insanely original and inspired
but the trailers rely too heavily on pointing out the stuff that's inspired by older games rather than introducing the new stuff dusk brings to the table
stone thistle
that's because you have to get the attention of old school fps fans first
dim valve
RAMPAGE PAST THE REDNECKS AND BE BRANDED A HERETIC
stone thistle
for me it worked
cloud forge
yeah
wasn't that the e3 trailer?
that showed little snippets of gameplay and was mostly just QUAKE IN FEAR
HALF YOUR LIFE
CHEX YOUR QUEST
dim valve
i clapped when i saw at-sts in the Dusk trailer!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cloud forge
CHASM IN THE RIFT
FILL YOUR ONE WHOLE UNIT WITH BLOOD
SERPENT RIDE WITH THE HEXENS
dim valve
THIS TEMPLE CHALLENGE ISN'T SO TASTY
cloud forge
holy fuck
dim valve
good job
gleaming berry
You also have to message your game very specifically in 2017
dim valve
yeah, like that other game
gleaming berry
Or people will assume it's something else
dim valve
the one that starts all those repeated arguments
gleaming berry
Once you have their attention - you can create more focused trailers
unique saffron
Why don't you just stand in front of a green screen and flex your sexy bod for the whole trailer @gleaming berry
dim valve
with clips like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjeXNraXVwE
muted tusk
Old Spice styled Dusk commercials starring El Oshcuro
gleaming berry
Quality
gleaming berry
Also Civ you have to balance the old and the new
Like we yell DOOM QUAKE BLOOD
But then we're like DO A FLIP
and it like OH OK
This is different
echo epoch
RED YOUR XEN
gleaming berry
Especially when you're an indie game with no following
stone thistle
there needs to be a Big John trailer
echo epoch
Nah keep Big John on the DL
gleaming berry
Gotta do as much as you can to get noticed by the masses then whiddle it down to your core audience
fossil oriole
Gee DUSK! How Come Your Mom Lets You Dual Wield Two Shotguns?
echo epoch
YOUR MOM WILL HATE THIS GAME
gleaming berry
DAVID SZYMANSKI IS GONNA MAKE YOU HIS BITCH
cloud forge
@gleaming berry
i actually totally agree with having to set the precedent for your game in the very first trailers
ive been doing a lot of thinking on STRAFE since it came out because even though it was marketed as an oldschool throwback, it fell into the pit of a lot of people not realizing it was a roguelike too despite that being on most of the readable forms of marketing, rather than the trailers
marketing is a fickle thing and honestly i think you obviously did a very good job looking back on it
also yeah, i will admit, when i saw that backflip at first i definitely went "Oh fuck, that's cool"
i keep bringing up strafe
but its kind of this weird anomoly
id been following it for a long time
and watching how it progressed
and its release
and reception, is really interesting
and its kind of a good basis for dos and donts when marketing and releasing a game
stone thistle
DUSK IS FOR EVERYONE!
cloud forge
i have a bizzare relationship with strafe
i actually sort of enjoy it honestly
but its like, at release it seems like nobody knew what it was supposed to be
and a lot of frustration came through in that
but it still felt rushed out the door and buggy beyond that
it was too ambitious tbh
cerulean sun
They didnt touch the door
echo epoch
Wait is your name from trying to speedrun e1m1
stone thistle
I want my DUSK sweater. Do it now. C'mon!
cloud forge
strafe is holding its place in my heart right now as that game that could have been brilliant and amazing but fell just short for many reasons
the game's art direction, music, and core gameplay is outstanding
but the modular level design fails in almost every way
cerulean sun
Referance to something else
cloud forge
and the lack of QA is insanely apparent
stone thistle
STRAFE has improved with the latest patches. Using mutators makes it more fun to play.
echo epoch
Hell, here they either tell you it's gonna get fixed, or it's intentional and to fuck off, which is amazing.
Other devs would just give you that "we're looking into it" nonsense
cloud forge
i still have a lot of respect for the strafe devs
they were insanely transparent around release and outright asked people to tell them how they fucked up in brutal detail and listened and took it as constructive criticsm
and i think their next project will be better for it
they're very nice peeps
they just had a project that was way too ambitious than they could handle and they were up front about that in some of their later backer emails
gleaming berry
Thanks!
gleaming berry
The same goes for AMID EVIL
It's actually nothing like Hexen and Heretic
But if I didn't say thay
Nobody would have paid any attention
echo epoch
I need to get in on AE
cloud forge
i still have a silly ass soft spot in my heart for strafe too though
its got one of my absolute favorite OSTs of 2016
and fuckin launching myself through levels while using small aliens as meat shields has its charm
cerulean sun
Btw my name is a pinball reference
gleaming berry
If we put out a press release just saying DARK FANTASY FPS nobody would have given a shit
echo epoch
It's time to DARKen your MESSIAH
stone thistle
to be honest what got me interested in both games most is that both have real fixed level design
cloud forge
DEEPโ DARKโ FANTASY FPS
cerulean sun
Dank fantasy
echo epoch
Honestly procedural will always be inferior to hand made maps
gleaming berry
And yes STRAFE is a very cautionary tale in terms of game messaging and Marketing
And QA
And release dates
And Kickstarter
Also nobody ever realizes I'm one of the executive producers of STRAFE lol
Me and Steve's parents
stone thistle
really?
cloud forge
if strafe had maybe like, another year of QA and testing
it wouldve been real good
and proper marketing of course
i keep forgetting about that
but yeah
ill always have a soft spot for strafe
hell, lemme see how much time i have logged in it
gleaming berry
Yeah Thom is a friend of mine I gave him money before anyone else
And pushed to get the Devolver deal
stone thistle
cool
gleaming berry
Was very stoked when they did I THOUGHT ID GET MY MONEY BACK heh
cloud forge
Thom Glunt is an insanely cool dude
I got to play Quake with him a lot during STRAFE's development and hearing his genuine passion was really inspirational tbh
gleaming berry
Yeah he's a great director
Too good
Trailers too damn good
For his own good
But he was also pretty stubborn about a lot of stuff until it came back to bite them after release
Reminds me of when we worked on ROTT
you'll know what's wrong with your game once it's out lol
cloud forge
when i look behind the scenes of strafe i see a team with some absolutely insane passion that just needed a bigger force to help push back and guide in a few places
gleaming berry
PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU
If it came out as what it is now it would have done great
But that initial bad PR was killer
stone thistle
people make mistakes and learn from that
gleaming berry
Hard to come back from
cloud forge
i would never even say the game had bad "PR"
they handled the reception fucking excellently imo
its just the bad marketing rather
gleaming berry
Nobody usually gets It right with their first game
oh no I mean bad PR from bad reviews and sales
cloud forge
ohh, yeah
gleaming berry
Not actual bad PR
The PR was great
We have the same PR person lol
DUSK is an example of all the lessons I learned on ROTT
You can only make better games
Unless you dont learn anything
echo epoch
^
gleaming berry
Like 5 years ago I didn't know Jack shit about making games, now I know a little more than that lol
stone thistle
I bought ROTT and I like it
cloud forge
Im glad strafe is in a good position now
but its also a shame that their 'first experience' had to go into that game because there's so much potential thematically and gameplay wise
honestly id love to see them years down the line remake strafe from scratch or something
of course i know that wont happen nor do i ever expect a dev to do something like that, im just speaking hypothetically
i think they're gonna do great stuff
cloud forge
i remember them saying a while back that their next project would be really different, yeah
im still very excited to see what they have in store though
gleaming berry
I mean we've basically made exactly what people have been asking for and we still get shit from time to time
Can't please everyone
echo epoch
I wish I had the means to fund indie games and such, but I'm pretty fucking irresponsible so I would've just marketed a bunch of indie early access walking simulators
unique saffron
I need you to make a Cooking Mama type game with a dose of Dave
echo epoch
^
gleaming berry
Also #bnnuy-and-the-jits
cloud forge
oh of course
but as much as i love it a lot of strafe's complaints were justified, at least around release
i think my first worry came from when i got the early access release
and i was playing through realizing how many bugs from the very first speedzone alpha had still not been fixed or even touched
opaque spindle
If New Blood makes a Fallout 1 style isometric RPG I'm going to buy that shit instantly
gleaming berry
Yeah I mean gameplay crits for STRAFE are subjective right? But there's no excuse for performance and bugs in 2017. Consumers will annihilate you
stone thistle
imo you've done something very awesome with DUSK. Could be my fps of 2018 (if I like it more than Amid Evil or Ion Maiden)
gleaming berry
But with Kickstarter backers and all the hype you set a date then you end up rushing like crazy
It's a treadmill
That's why I don't do release dates
You will never hit them
Games done when they done
SOOOOONymtmtmrmtmtm
Anyway my bags are delayed I gotta go wander around LAX now
stone thistle
all hail the power of soonโข
gleaming berry
Tune in next week for more Marketing With Davetm
stone thistle
cya later Dave
cloud forge
you know
speaking of all this
i really hope romero's blackroom fps isn't dead in the water
its been silent for so long and that premise sounded amazing
stone thistle
yeah I hope too that it's not dead
bright crane
just read the chat
STRAFE is a pretty good game but ive got frustrated about some game breaking glitches, other than that... its full retro, if you consider my favorite music genre is dark synthwave ... it really bias my opinion but hey
stone thistle
I like STRAFE too but I hope they'll still release a few patches that add more stability
bright crane
@gleaming berry im really proud that you've learned a lot, ROTT to me was amazing too and it came at a time where twitch arena FPS were ocming back
@gleaming berry EVEN so i prefer it over nexuiz, i preordered nexuiz back in 2012 and i really regret it ( a shamed of me that i knew most of the devs of Illfonic)
stone thistle
especially the loading train in the Burbs needs more attention. That train turned out to be a run killer for me.
stone thistle
I did the same
bright crane
temporary fix was just to save and come back
stone thistle
unfortunately no answer
bright crane
they'll fix it
altho not sure im going to 100% the game with the glitch since its tiring
(im an achievement hunter and these cases, games where i'd get the 100% but i can't... really makes me sad)
stone thistle
I hope they'll
opal plover
Hey guess who's got a compelling arguement to make the guardian invincible to his own grenades.
echo epoch
Like 5 people here earlier lol
opal plover
I can't get the pacifist archivement on E2M10 because he just keeps hurting himself.
gleaming berry
Yeah I have some ideas about the guardian fight
crystal vessel
Do enemies killing themselves prevent you from getting that?
gleaming berry
Also David already kinda fixed the jump pad e2m6 bug
None of us can replicate it
It's so random
cosmic urchin
@bright crane if you like dark synthwave are you into perturbator
opal plover
I guess it does amealok
cosmic urchin
his new ep was so fucking good
crystal vessel
Infighting doesn't prevent you from getting pacifist so I don't see why enemies suiciding would
gleaming berry
Yeah he like reinvented himself wuhhhh he's so EDM nao
gleaming berry
Helps to be real high
bright crane
Dave did you play Hotline miami 2?
gleaming berry
Lol
bright crane
did you listen to the soundtrack?
summer otter
cosmic urchin
hlm2 is the worse game imo but the soundtrack is excellent
cosmic urchin
i still have nightmares of death wish on hard mode
bright crane
never heard of that game
summer otter
its heard of u
cosmic urchin
the mummy, bandit chick is cool
vagrant trout
How did whoever the person that came up with the weapon spinning come up with the weapon spinning? Like what gave him the idea?
summer otter
tell no1
echo epoch
Also why does spinning most weapons deal damage but some don't?
Still a cool feature
Why the fuck not โข
opal plover
Because of the way you spin it
cerulean sun
we need a fidget spinner gun
opal plover
cerulean sun
now we can spin while we spin ๐
echo epoch
The SSG should do damage
Like a drill
Because, as we all know, the SSG needs more buffs
gleaming berry
Buff ssg
vagrant trout
@mild ginkgo Are you guys all playin Duskworld or something right now?
vagrant trout
ah
mild ginkgo
im acttually sat in bed on my laptop
mild ginkgo
yep! its a big secret
jagged topaz
I tried jumping, couldn't make it ._.
mild ginkgo
yeah theres another way to access it
vagrant trout
pro tip: you can fly if you use props and the superhot cheat code
jagged topaz
lol ok wasn't sure if i was supposed to see it from this angle though, still exploring now
vagrant trout
so how many dusk shitposts have been made so far?
hexed roost
MANY
vagrant trout
I desire these.
mild ginkgo
vagrant trout
I will make a folder for them, just like warframe, doom, warhammer and tooth and tail shitposts,
cloud forge
made my own quickie model of one of the experiments just for low poly model doodling warmups
not sure if ill texture it since it was just for fun
would like to do some proper 3d fanart at some point
mild ginkgo
its adorable
cloud forge
didnt have much reference beyond a heavily jpeggy screengrab so its probably off but damn
today i learned the experiments have big as heck heads
cerulean sun
would it be possible to get a DUSKGuy velocity meter in game?
vagrant trout
Seeing the second experiment pop out after the first one made me laugh my ass off
I was like "Huh, that wasn't too hard I guess, I wonder if" and then all of a sudden
cloud forge
nearly shat myself the first time because i thought i was gonna be doing a button puzzle
mild ginkgo
but what about the third experiment
vagrant trout
dusk has the sort of plot you could summarize in like a paragraph or two right?
cosmic urchin
probably so yeah
vagrant trout
Is it posted anywhere?
cosmic urchin
but episode two would be
cerulean sun
DUSK Bible
cosmic urchin
complicated
vagrant trout
I mean the background's all you really need
you can figure out stuff for yourself just by playing past that point
all there in the manual
cosmic urchin
musclebound indiana jones
mild ginkgo
afaik
vagrant trout
he's a treasure hunter and oh no cultists captured him and put him on meathooks?
and then things escalate from there
cosmic urchin
i guess
mild ginkgo
im hoping david tells us more lol
cosmic urchin
all will be revealed in the dusk comic
cosmic urchin
pre-order before the halloween "release date"
mild ginkgo
Yep
cosmic urchin
yeah buddy
vagrant trout
So who are the main devs on Dusk besides Points, Dave, Cheese, coder guy...?
are they it?
cosmic urchin
uh
mild ginkgo
David (cheese/jefequeso) is the main dusk dev
cosmic urchin
cheese (david) is the main dev im pretty sure. dave is just the producer/general memelord
balmy sluice
Dave just provides face textures
vagrant trout
one's named david and the other's dave?
mild ginkgo
he does all the art, code, everything except some of the music in the main game
cerulean sun
cosmic urchin
one fucking guy
mild ginkgo
DAVE, El Oschuro, is the producer
cosmic urchin
still amazing to me
mild ginkgo
Andrew does music and sounds
frigid swallow
You know vine sauce played the game on stream tonight
cosmic urchin
vinny? joel?
frigid swallow
Vin
vagrant trout
I'd assume Vinny since he usually plays more new shit
mild ginkgo
i do the Duskworld development
cosmic urchin
oh good time to watch vinny fucking die and get lost for 2 hours
frigid swallow
Couldnโt get a good match going tho
magic dew
yea just found out about this game from vinny, i saw maybe two minutes of gameplay and got immediately stoked. it's like this was made for me
mild ginkgo
and theres a few mappers, hank , rezulux, and unmutual
vagrant trout
Vinny's not that bad
cosmic urchin
๐ค
vagrant trout
I've seen other LPers who are generally more terrible at the games they play. but that's another topic
cosmic urchin
party hard 2 alpha though
that was depressing
i had to download the shit myself and play it
frigid swallow
He mainly wanted to showcase it
balmy sluice
@cosmic urchin go find e2ms already!
frigid swallow
Looked neat havenโt seen it before
cosmic urchin
@balmy sluice BAWDY HELL MOM ILL DO IT TOMORROW
vagrant trout
so there's a bunch of people coming in now from vinny's stream?
mild ginkgo
i wish i had been around while vinnt was playing
frigid swallow
Well Iโve seen the game in articles
mild ginkgo
we wouldve put a nice server up for him and filled it with people
frigid swallow
But first time watching gameplay
vagrant trout
I'm trying to think of where I first saw. I think it may of been Jim Sterling's video on the shareware version? though I'm certain I saw something of it before then
cosmic urchin
gggmanlives is where i saw it
vagrant trout
I was kinda worried about it from watching the shareware version gameplay, amplified from hearing about Strafe at its state of launch. but things seem to have turned out very well.
cerulean sun
and he invited me to the steam group one day and held out on buying for a while
jagged topaz
ok i give up is there a basketball prop i can't find somewhere?
cerulean sun
yes
jagged topaz
fuck
cosmic urchin
dusk has already claimed the title of goty 2018 for me unless eitr actually comes out
cerulean sun
teleporter
cloud forge
I've been looking now too, didnt know about that secret
vagrant trout
There's Dusk and two other games I'm looking forward to this year
cloud forge
I feel like the bottom of the lake might open up?
The hallways seems to lead right underneath it
jagged topaz
civ, it's almost assuredly shooting a basketball in the hoop by that lake
but i can't find a basketball
cloud forge
I thought it might be a skull or maybe mortars you needed to use
vagrant trout
I'm kinda hopin Hunt isn't bad even though I know exactly what tired bandwagon it's a part of.
cerulean sun
have you been ontop of the hay?
cloud forge
But same
cosmic urchin
@vagrant trout which games?
cloud forge
Also noticed a secret side room that opens up in the trees behind the shed
Dont know how to get in either
vagrant trout
it was amid evil lol
balmy sluice
Hunt: Showdown looks dope
vagrant trout
I saw like a five second clip of that and it made my bones feel good.
mild ginkgo
cosmic urchin
shadow warrior all over again is what it felt like
reboot hasn't aged well probably but i loved that game anyway
balmy sluice
so how about that dusk though?
mild ginkgo
im a fan
cosmic urchin
cerulean sun
needs DUSKGUY velocity meter
cerulean sun
so i can test speed things
mild ginkgo
worst timeline
cloud forge
I like Amid Evil just cus of the aesthetic alone
balmy sluice
they just let anyone in off the street eh?
mild ginkgo
im gonna make you a speedo that goes from Not Moving to Fast
vagrant trout
does anyone else have to rebind weapon keys whenever a game has more than six weapons?
cerulean sun
can it go to tofu drifto?
vagrant trout
but then how will you spin your guns?
cerulean sun
^