#Weird symptoms when using odorless mineral spirit

80 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

final basin
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I'm a happy miniature painter that discovered my love for oil paints some 3 - 4 years ago. I've been painting on and off, not really a big amount, except for a few weeks here and there up to big tournaments. I've always tried to stay safe with the thinner, only using a small amount. Usually in two small cups covered by a self made plastic lid with a box of AP sand for weighing it down. The I do the typical thinning down of the paint or pinline wash sometimes and I use it to clean my brushes. I've been having the two cups on my shelf in my office for years, typically containing a bit of thinner to preserve it a bit. I sometimes have brushes that are cleaned in thinner lying around and perhaps some used tissue paper, but I wouldn't call it a big amount.

Now I have a tournament coming up and I'm putting some time into painting up some stuff. Recently, like within the last week or so, I've been having some symptoms everytime I need to use the thinner. It's like I can feel it in my throat a bit and a bit when I breethe. Sometimes I feel slight nausea, and I've also felt a bit light headed at times.

I've never felt like this before. I always open a window when I'm painting, so I don't quite understand what's going on. I really love the oil paints, so I'd hate to give it up, but these symptoms are worrying me a bit.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards.
The worrying oil painter....

real bough
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What thinner are you using? Standard white spirit, or Odourless one, or a hobby/artist one.
The symptoms you're describing are quite typical when you're breathing to much solvent fumes.

final basin
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It's odorless. The one you looked at some time ago @real bough . As far as I remember, it should be just as good as the commercial products from gambling and Windsor and Newton, etc.

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I'm using this.

real bough
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I guess the main issue might be a lack of ventilation. One way to avoid the symptoms will be to use a breathing mask with Organic vapor cartridge.

final basin
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I think it was in the hobby help forums, but a couple of years back, so I can't really find it again. I pulled this picture from our chat, which was sent to you after you advised me it was a fine enough product. I might have some copy paste of what you wrote back then, but I'm pretty sure you said it was just as good as sansodor for instance

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I'm very baffled by the symptoms, as it's not anything I've seen before. I've been thinking about doing more in regards to ventilation and also perhaps using a mask like you are suggesting. Any ideas for better ventilation, like using some fans close to my painting table perhaps?

real bough
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Typical health hazard for white spirit is H336 - May cause drowsiness or dizziness. Typically what you're describing.

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Found the Safety data sheet. I can't read most of it. But I can decipher all the code.
It's a typical odorless white spirit.

final basin
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I don't doubt that exposure is the problem, I'm just baffled that it's starting to be a problem all of a sudden. And also, that it's just a very small amount for a short amount of time, that will make the symptoms appear. Like cleaning 5 brushes last night had me feeling like this.

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I suppose that having newly cleaned brushes in the office, will have turpentine evaporating for a period of time

real bough
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It's a quite common thing called sensitisation. You feel nothing, until a certain threshold is reached, then it becomes an issue and it will get worse every time.

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And that threshold varies from person to person, so it's impossible to quantify.

final basin
real bough
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Yes, I was quite surprised not to see the H336.

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Even more surprising, there's not the Flammable warning 😮

final basin
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This one I took directly from borups homepage

real bough
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Ahhhhhh! That explain a lot. It's not because you can't see any drop or can't smell it (normal for an "odourless") that it's not there. When I'm using white spirit, I make sure that nothing is left in the cup, and I put my rags outdoor.

final basin
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So what does this mean? Have I been using it wrong?

real bough
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Not exactly, but not taking enough precautions to limit the risk, maybe.

final basin
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Ok. This is a bit surprising. What implications does it have for me now then?

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Like, can I still use oil paints if I'm more careful, or is it super bad and I need to go to the hospital?

real bough
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It means that from what you're describing, you've been sensitised. So from now, you have to step up the level of protection.
That means, discarding or putting back in the bottle any left-over white spirit. I would suggest to put any rags/brushes that have been in contact with white spirit, ideally outside, if not in a really well ventilated area. And I strongly recommend painting with a half-mask with A2 level protection (that's the one for Organic vapour) and replacing these cartridges every 6 months.

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And if going to the hospital is not required, maybe talking to your doctor, showing him the safety datasheet, describing the symptoms, might be a good idea.

final basin
final basin
real bough
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Talk to your doctor first. They're trained to deal with cases like that. Rarer than dealing with someone with the flu, but toxicology is part of their training. They will advise to go to hospital or not.

real bough
final basin
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This is a bit troubling. I feel very stupid for letting something like this happen.

real bough
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Don't beat yourself. The only consequence is likely that you will just have to wear a mask. It was a low level level exposure so unlikely to have acute effect.

final basin
# real bough Don't beat yourself. The only consequence is likely that you will just have to w...

Thx so much! You have been extremely helpful Antinea. More than you might realize. I'll look into the mask, perhaps some kind of USB fan also to help blow the vapors towards my window. I've already begun to clear my office from everything exposed to the thinner, every time I have been painting. So throwing out tissue paper, and removing unused thinner from the cup. I'll start putting brushes used outside also

barren rampart
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Do not let tissue paper soaked in spirits sit in a can before fully dried. The drying process creates heat and can, in rare cases, cause it to catch fire

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Just let it dry fully before putting it in the trash and you are golden. This is mainly for rags fully soaked in it and stuff but it is something to consider and a very easy/low effort fix

final basin
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I normally put it all in a plastic bag that I fill up with water, push out all air, tie a knot and leave outside for a day or two before throwing it in my trash can

final basin
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Any specific masks you would recommend @real bough? I have a 3M half mask 7500, but unsure if that can be used. Also, I don't know if it's possible, but I use glasses, so preferably some kind of mask where having glasses on isn't totally pain lol

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I'm also considering an air purifier if that makes sense?

real bough
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That mask is fine. You need to buy the A2 cartridges for it. 3M part number is 6055. As I mentioned you need to replace these cartridges every 6 months after date of 1st use (when you opened the sealed bag).
https://www.safetecdirect.co.uk/products/3m6055/3m-6055-a2-organic-vapour-filter-cartridge-for-6000-7500-series-masks-pair-

3M 6055 A2 Organic Vapour Filter | Safetec Direct

Buy 3M 6055 A2 organic vapour filter (pair) at Safetec Direct, leading 3M PPE product suppliers, order today for less!

final basin
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Thx! I don't suppose any masks are made for wearing glasses as such? I'll get some filters for the one I have as a starter. It's not great to wear, especially not with glasses, but it will be fine just for using washes and such.

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I have some home made fluo oil paints. A few of them unfortunately contain thinner as well as linseed oil and pigments. I suppose the recommended approach here is the same @real bough? Only use them with the mask on?

real bough
final basin
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So I'm using 6035 filters in the mask currently, also adviced by you some years ago @real bough 😉 I'm mostly using these filters for airbrushing and when working with pigments (when mixing the home made oil paints). The new filters can they be used for airbrushing also, or do I need to have two masks?

real bough
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Now, you can keep the mask, but you will have to buy some new type of P3 filter and a pair of retainers for these that can be clipped on the 6055.
The part number for the retainers is 501, and it will be a one-off buy.
And the pre-filters are part number 6935. These can be replaced only when breathing become difficult.

final basin
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Ok so this is a bit confusing. Is this like putting different units together so you have several filters attached on top of each other, but on the same mask?

real bough
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Exactly that. That's the combo I have.

final basin
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Given that I'll probably be having the mask on for extended periods of time, due to sometimes working a lot on OSL with the before mentioned fluorescent oils that contain thinner, and various washes. It might make more sense to have two masks. It wouldn't be great having a maske that is very heavy, and having it on for two hours straight, for instance. What is your take on this, do you find your mask heavy?

final basin
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Ok so I've looked at the products, and it doesn't seem so bad combining the two filters. I was under the impression that it would be like the 6035 on top of the 6055. The pre filter seems very light weight and the same for the retainer

real bough
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Oh yes, the pre-filter weights less than 1 g. And I doubt the retainer weights more than 10 g

final basin
real bough
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Yes. My mistake, it's 5935.

final basin
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So I put the 6055 directly on the mask. Then I put the 5935 filters on top of the 6055. Then add the 501 retainer on top to hold the 5935 filter in place. Something like that?

real bough
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Correct

final basin
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Do you have any experience with air purifiers @real bough ? Or know whether or not they make a difference in regards to removing odorless mineral spirit from the air?

real bough
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No experience yet. I just bought one 2nd hand last week but haven't tested yet. They can't do harm, but if they don't have an activated charcoal filter, they won't do anything for solvent vapors.

final basin
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What about stuff like CA glue. Does the maske help in that regard?

real bough
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No. Mask will help for cement, but not for CA glue.

final basin
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Thx @real bough is there any good way to know what the mask will protect against besides what I already know?

real bough
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The mask will protect against any organic vapors, meaning solvents (alcohols, acetone, white spirit, nail polish remover, etc...)

final basin
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this seems like more chemistry knowledge than I have. Isn't there an easy way to know these things? 😄

real bough
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Easy reply: no 😈

final basin
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I actually do use a lot of CA glue, which I suppose isn't exactly super healthy as well. What would you recommend in regards to safety for that @real bough ?

real bough
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That's where you're wrong. CA are quite safe. In fact, their initial uses were for battlefield wounds closing.
I just use gloves to avoid the occasional gluing of my own fingers together.

final basin
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Well that's nice to know because I've been using it a lot and was afraid that I could be risking my health by inhaling too many CA fumes. I do often have an open window, but it's not always possible

ancient pebble
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I've got one friend who said he became really sensitised to CA glue from a few years of building infinity metal minis

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And apparently can't use it anymore without a mask

final basin
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I know of guy who has the same problems come to think about it

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Something else I've been thinking about in relation to vapors @real bough . In my office, when I'm working with some homemade paint containing a bit of mineral spirit or perhaps pinline washes, can you say anything about how long that will take to evaporate? And if I'll need to like air out the room before it's "safe" to be in there again for instance?

A common scenario is cleaning brushes using mineral spirit, which of course also will evaporate some of it into the air. I'm having problems forming a real question here, but are there any guidelines for how I should be doing in such a scenario to stay safe? 🙂

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This whole sensitive situation opens up a lot of new questions and problems. For instance, if I've used a pinline wash on a model as the finishing touch, I usually just put it on my shelf to dry before I varnish the finished model. But what would you advice me to do now then? I suspect that having the model with the pinline wash dry in my office, will fill the room with vapors. This means I can't really use my computer, which is also located in the office, a few meters away from my shelf

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Sorry @real bough this was a lot of questions, but I'm just trying to figure out how to work with this stuff going forward, and get a feel for how bad it actually is

real bough
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While calculating a rate of evaporation is theoretically possible, it is practically impossible (for us). There's too many variables involved. The main one are temperature of the liquid, temperature of the air, hydrometry, velocity of the air.

final basin
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yes ok, that does make sense. Is there anything to be said that I can use as a guideline. Like what would you do @real bough ? I try to get all the cleaning done as fast as possible and then place the brushes outside for drying. It's harder to figure out what to do about models drying with paint containing mineral spirit, like pineline washes. Am I overcomplicating this? 😄

tame osprey
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Just stick it in a well ventilated area and wait

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Warmer is better to an extent

final basin
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I only have my office for that Buzzkill, and I've started to have some health problems with mineral spirit vapors

tame osprey
safe valley
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Puting everything (minis, containers, brushes...) away to dry is advised, like on a balcony or in the garage, if you don't have any, at least put it in front of an open window. Never let anything dry in your office, even the mini with minimum washes.

final basin