Idea
#suggestions-discussion
sharp ibex
serene fox
but not cancelled
ashen warren
theres almost no reason to go all menacing now
golden narwhal
It's not very noticeable tbh
serene fox
wut
ashen warren
what bosses have timed DR now
sinful steeple
I think the accs OD drops should just be buffed, instead of adding something more
ashen warren
p much all
serene fox
all
golden narwhal
Ye
hollow shell
I've heard from several people that the timed DR barely has an effect
ashen warren
the fuck
ashen warren
had no idea lmao
serene fox
yeah exactly
hollow shell
(But I do still think it should be removed because ^ it's an obscure feature that has an effect on your DPS and could be confusing to the players that it does effect)
ashen warren
well then just remove it like it wasnt there right?
sharp ibex
Wait I had an idea and then realized it would be trash
Hmm
Maybe a dash acc that has both dodge and ram?
serene fox
^
cobalt pewter
I read configs often, so I know the existence of that kinda DR
sharp ibex
Possibly
sinful steeple
Old Duke's scales kinda seems really bad since the max damage boost is 28% which is pretty good but that's only when you're under 25% health and when you have a debuff
hollow shell
A DoT, specifically
sharp ibex
We do not want too good
sinful steeple
Normally you'd be at around 100-50% health for most of the fight, only getting low health rarely
sharp ibex
We want something as good as flesh totem
ashen warren
we already have dash and dodge its called counter scarf
serene fox
yeah but that has no ram
sharp ibex
We gotta think outside the box
ashen warren
dodge and ram is different to dodge and dash
sinful steeple
I don't think we need to think outside the box, OD drops two accessories already they're just kinda bad
sharp ibex
Aegis is ram, void stash is dodge for endgame
ashen warren
i do find ram somewhat more useful since you get iframes when you collide with an enemy
golden narwhal
But why a new acc rather than buffing the current ones
cobalt pewter
Dodge and ram essentially gives you excuse to everything. Ram for contact dmg, dodge for projectile AND contact damage
hollow shell
Cuz the current ones are boring
and the one that isn't boring is tier-centric
sharp ibex
We need to think outside the box
sinful steeple
Mutated truffle is not great and Old Duke's scales are just effectively a downgrade to items you already have, only coming in handy when you're on death's door
sharp ibex
Maybe an item that increases projectile speeds?
ashen warren
rogue accessories
golden narwhal
I'd include in the sugg why no buff then, since that's a noticeable way out of it
hollow shell
You oughta include that yeah
Either that or say that reworking OD's scales in an option
sharp ibex
Maybe a block
sinful steeple
There's honestly not a good reason to not buff them since they're just kinda bad, both items
hollow shell
Okay Slam we don't need to be discussing this
radiant meadow
OD dropping furniture sounds weird
hollow shell
Also
I'd include in the sugg why no buff then, since that's a noticeable way out of it
You oughta include that yeah
Either that or say that reworking OD's scales in an option
sharp ibex
I dunno
If my suggestion gets voted in, the both brilliant and absolutely insane mind of fabsol can think of something good
Or whoever thinks of shit
Or adds shit
Or whatever
hollow shell
(okay but like this isn't about comin up with an idea for a new item atm
See the things I just quoted)
heady storm
Was gonna say, OD already has stuff like scales and mutant truffle.
hollow shell
Dude I'm telling you to edit it
heady storm
Yeah change it to how Rover feels.
sharp ibex
I’ll do that
hollow shell
You should include a line in your suggestion about why a new item instead of buffing his current items
or
say that buffing/reworking his current items is also an option
sharp ibex
Making suggestions makes me feel productive, IDK why 
I should introduce more of my insane ideas
hollow shell
Nah you gotta pull a ThomasThePencil instead
... or me
Keep them all in one massive Google Doc
and never show anybody until 2 years later after you've accumulated a massive load of batshit ideas 
serene fox
is that what you two do?
sharp ibex
Next up, why melee should be removed
hollow shell
(I have at least shown mine to the dev team now, and some devs are into my ideas
So all wasn't for naught. But then again I am a dev and you and Thomas aren't so, your ideas may be for naught) :P
dapper coral
thomas for sure, rover does it for dev peoples iirc
radiant meadow
Rover finally mustered enough courage to post it yes
cobalt pewter
Next up, why melee should be removed
more like, why projectile melees should be removed
hollow shell
I have three separate ideas in my doc for unfucking melee
sharp ibex
Why the default spawn point should be at the bottom of the abyss
sand umbra
I do indeed have a Google Doc containing various suggestion ideas
I need to. write down more of them so I can like actually draft the relevant reasonings
sharp ibex
If we could suggest entire bosses I could think of some Touhou-level shit
hollow shell
I can't even imagine the chaos if we allowed boss suggestions
sand umbra
personally I'd prefer to just. stick to changing what's already there
sinful steeple
Honestly the ideal situation is suggestions not being necessary
But nothing is perfect
sharp ibex
Community feedback is always nice
hollow shell
Indeed, the mod just being perfect and never needing any suggested changes
sharp ibex
Suggestions give players a chance to contribute to development 
I had an idea but I’m not sure if it would fall under a Don’t
It prolly would
sand umbra
whether anything comes of that chance or not is...debatable
but it is a chance nonetheless for the average player to contribute in what little ways they can
hollow shell
I'm not wholly sure what you mean when you mention the theming of the accessories
getting muddled
sharp ibex
But I’ll spit it out
You know how the grand design works?
And it lets you create long times of wires fast?
sinful steeple
The only thing I think that's bad about amalgamated brain is that it's directly better than avenger emblem
hollow shell
Because one of the items is "Amalgamated Brain"
It's crafted from two brains, and it has both a meaty side and a rotting side, and the function is both of their effects
Totally fine theming
sand umbra
might remove the point about theming
sinful steeple
Like, it's +12% all class damage and projectiles rain down on hit, pre-mechs
sharp ibex
What if there was a late game version of the grand design that let you place blocks or platforms fast, to aid in arena building?
sinful steeple
Avenger emblem is +12% all class damage only, post-mechs
hollow shell
You could suggest that Slamdunc
sharp ibex
Oh lit
sand umbra
oh yeah can we talk about how Amalgam Brain is basically a better and earlier Avenger Emblem 
hollow shell
You do need to make some big-ass arenas for DoG and Yharon and such
sinful steeple
Actually it's something I've noticed with a lot of other accessories, being better versions of later items
hollow shell
3% less damage, Tommy 
sinful steeple
For example voltaic jelly also does this
sand umbra
no
hollow shell
wait
sand umbra
Avenger is 12%
hollow shell
Damn, all the constituents are 15%
That's kind of a problem, you should make a totally separate suggestion about that
sand umbra
cool bug fact's part 2: Destrroyer is 10%
Terraria is a fantastic game
anywho uhhh Amalgam Brain nerf sugg coming soon™️
hollow shell
Hmm I could see some counterargument to Slamdunc's upcoming sugg tho
cobalt pewter
Cool bug's fact part 3: Destroyer also has 10% crit chance, so unless you're funni stealth rogue post-Cultist, Destroyer is essentially +20% dmg
sinful steeple
It's actually 8% crit
cobalt pewter
sand umbra
yeah it's 8% crit
sand umbra
also that's not how multiplication or crit chance work
assuming consistent crit rate of +8% you get a total of +18.8% damage, or about +19% damage
crits are completely random though so that damage bonus isn't consistent whatsoever
sinful steeple
I should probably sugg a pygmy necklace buff, I've wanted to do it for ages but like haven't felt like doing it
sand umbra
no
hollow shell
Maybe hold it till tomorrow cuz we're getting a lot of suggestions right now
sand umbra
Pygmy Necklace doesn't need a buff given the impending changes to it
hollow shell
Impending changes?
sinful steeple
It's post QB in 1.4.1
cobalt pewter
Also tom your sugg is like, contradictory with Calamity in general
Prolly wait until they made evils actually relevant
sinful steeple
Voltaic jelly is post-DS
cobalt pewter
And yes Pygmy is gonna be post QB in 1.4.1, sold from Witch Doctor
sinful steeple
Yeah but it's still a downgrade to an earlier item, even if pre-hm
sand umbra
what fucking item is earlier than post-QB Pygmy that grants a minion slot
sinful steeple
Voltaic jelly
sand umbra
oh, a Calamity item designed with the idea that summoner is bad normally in mind?
that's fantastic
it's still a huge bonus for that stage of the game. minion slots are not easy to come by in pre-Hardmode
sand umbra
no it doesn't????????
sinful steeple
Imagine having like only two or so minion slots up until after QB would suck
cobalt pewter
sinful steeple
So nerfing voltaic isn't an option
sand umbra
nerfing voltaic absolutely is an option because guess what
you get actual summoner armors with Calamity
you're not stuck with literally fucking nothing until post-QB like you are in vanilla
hollow shell
I mean, it's theoretically fine for Pygmy to be flat-out worse than Voltaic considering they stack
but it goes counter to like
mmmost items in the game
sinful steeple
Which is why I said 2, not 1
sinful steeple
There's like wulfrum and victide until QB which don't give a great boost in minion slots
cobalt pewter
It seems fine and you got the point across in the header already imo
hollow shell
It's a little specific but overall good sugg
sand umbra
+1 slot at a point in the game where you get very few is enormous
sharp ibex
True
sand umbra
the amount of strength you gain out of minion slots is directly proportional to the amount you already have
ashen warren
pygmy necklace could have minion damage buff
cobalt pewter
The contents can be definitely compressed a little, but yeah slam, your sugg looks ight
ashen warren
or like
sand umbra
if you have one minion slot, for example, and you gain another minion slot
that's +100% of what would be your summon damage capability otherwise
hollow shell
That's a bit extreme for Calamity to do to a vanilla item
but it would indeed be neat
sand umbra
(also do I smell the like 6th Chloro crystal bootleg)
sharp ibex
God this is addicting
ashen warren
"creative" yes
sharp ibex
I wanna keep making good ideas
sand umbra
(I understand it's a useful base, being one of the only summons in the base game that actually relates to a set, but come on this is a bit much)
sharp ibex
I wanna contribute
ashen warren
🤔
hollow shell
Try to hold off for now Slamdunc
or if you do come up with more ideas, write em down and save em somewhere to post later
ashen warren
pre-hardmode stardust guardian
sharp ibex
Good point
hollow shell
We been gettin a lot of posts this past hour or two
cobalt pewter
It goes from 0 to <amount of suggs in posting> real quick eh
sharp ibex
Why do I call the community “the masses”?
ashen warren
yeah yesterday the channel was clean
sand umbra
in unrelated assessments, I've adjusted the thing about amalgabrain and bloody scarf
ashen warren
time zones maybe
cobalt pewter
14 suggs, 13 game suggs and 1 server sugg, 1 sugg given ❗
sand umbra
pog
sharp ibex
yknow, If boss suggestions were a thing, I could finally have hopes of The Chungloid becoming a reality
dry latch
but that's the thing with the two evils, they don't matter in the end. even vanilla thinks so (evils seeds)
dry latch
yeah iirc
hollow shell
How?
dry latch
1.4 added that
ashen warren
in 1.4 iirc
dry latch
graveyards
hollow shell
Fuuuck
dry latch
so unless you guys are removing that, this entire line of thinking will be moot lol
ashen warren
also 05162020 makes it possible in 1.4
sand umbra
aha, but you see
this only further pushes my point
I know about evil seeds and I mentioned this in the original minithesis in the evil island sugg
ashen warren
i thought calamity worlds already have both evils with the addition to the evil islands
ashen warren
a single seed isn't life changing
the evil island sugg hasnt been implemented into calamity?
hollow shell
I thought you were saying that Calamity world have both evils in full, and also the Evil Island exists
sand umbra
...perhaps you. missed a memo, Riri
the evil island sugg in question was about removing or heavily retooling them
I was the one that wrote it
hollow shell
Unless you're from like
two years ago
and you somehow found somebody suggesting they add an evil island
.... cuz evil islands have existed for a while
sand umbra
evil islands are fuckin' ancient yeah
dry latch
removing them will just result in people using that two evils world seed all the time to save from the hassle of importing the other evil in their playthrough
hollow shell
Not ANCIENT ancient but
pretty old
I don't think anybody will use the easter egg seed just for the double evils
ashen warren
oh I thought they got added recently
hollow shell
That world is fucked up
sand umbra
good thing drunk world gets really boring really fast after one playthrough 
dry latch
they will if the islands get removed
sinful steeple
Fargo's both evils exists
dry latch
or that yes
ashen warren
true drunk world is very weird
sand umbra
or they'll use Fargo's Mutant Mod and the plethora of evil conversion recipes it has
you forget, Gan, that this is a modded content
there are multiple mods that do the both evils tomfuckery and quite bluntly do it better
ashen warren
or just cheat the solution in ig
dry latch
I was thinking with just calamity in mind yes. but that's the point, all this is doing is forcing people to either add other mods or slave away in importing evils manually
hollow shell
Indeed except that that's fine
sinful steeple
Tbf you can get a big enough evil biome from a single block because it spreads
hollow shell
If you're the kind of person who wants both world evils then you can go download the mod for both world evils
sinful steeple
It's just annoying to do so
dry latch
yeah, so why is "your starting evil literally does not matter" a problem?
hollow shell
Reduces playthrough variety
sand umbra
sinful steeple
Honestly I think it's a good thing since two evils is kinda a mistake
sand umbra
I'm not continuing for an hour on this when I already wrote a thesis on it
hollow shell
Why even have a choice of two world evils if you just get the items from both anyway
sand umbra
I am not having this fucking argument again, I've already had it before
if you want both world evils, download a mod for it
Calamity doesn't need it and is actively hurt by its attempts to have it
that is my stance and I stand by it
dry latch
no like, why not have both evils being in the world the constant?
hollow shell
Makes them less important
Having the choice is interesting, having a different set of items, enemies, generation, and bosses you gotta go through with each playthrough
cobalt pewter
Basically making evils a choice gives additional factors in replayability
sinful steeple
Not only did crimson totally steal some of corruption's thunder(corruption was already a gorey biome, it just wasn't completely two dimensional in concept) but having content be only crimson/only corruption and be different is taking away from your current playthrough to give you something you might not even want in another playthrough
sand umbra
it's almost like it's okay to have to play the video game more than once to really enjoy it to its fullest potential
dry latch
but there are other options for replayability, like classes and difficulty modes
dry latch
the evil mobs aren't even that different
ashen warren
both world evil should be a choice when making a new world
hollow shell
Again, Gan
If you like having both world evils, you can go download Both Evils
cobalt pewter
the evil mobs aren't different
21k hp devourer on dmode
:fear:
sand umbra
.
I'm gonna step away before I do something I'm gonna regret later
hollow shell
Even if Calamity removes its evil island, that mod will still exist
cobalt pewter
Cya
hollow shell
See ya
dry latch
kek, my point was that both evils are trying to cater for everyone. just look at all the crimson/corruption variants that are literally the same thing. the problem with giving them unique effects will be that one biome would end up better than the other (just look at vanilla)
hollow shell
I mean
Corruption gets Worm Scarf, Crimson gets Vampire Knives
dry latch
I agree that the duplicates are bad, but making them unique would just introduce another problem
sinful steeple
Yeah that's what I think too
dry latch
was thinking more of the starband
hollow shell
It would result in some moments being imbalanced across worlds
But I also think that's fine because again, variety
sinful steeple
Introducing crimson as an alt evil is just digging a hole in a marsh
hollow shell
If one ends up being overall better than the other then that's an issue
but we have the ability to fix that
cobalt pewter
Starpower is kinda weird, but on another news: 1.4.1 lets you swap between Starpower and Panic with graveyard crafting
dry latch
also, vanilla made worm scarf worse than the alternative lol
cobalt pewter
hollow shell
and imo it's more worth having that issue than to treat it like both world evils aren't even a choice
sinful steeple
To be fair worm scarf is also kinda bad in Calamity as well
dry latch
Starpower is kinda weird, but on another news: 1.4.1 lets you swap between Starpower and Panic with graveyard crafting
which is what they don't want (amalgamated brain mats being sold by dryad)
hollow shell
I am kinda pissed that they're reducing the importance of world evils in vanilla too
dry latch
yeah, which is my point
dry latch
if you guys wanna go through with this, vanilla needs to be changed
it's just a caveat I'm mentioning
I'm not against the sugg lol
hollow shell
We don't need to make it literally required to use both with items like Amalgamated Brain and Bloody Worm Scarf
dry latch
I want evils to matter
cobalt pewter
I'd honestly just fuckin move Starpower and Panic Necklace to be not limited to evils tbh
limber ocean
some of vanilla's design choices are just weird, tbh
cobalt pewter
Yes
dry latch
exactly
cobalt pewter
Mana Crystals and Shackle idk
sand umbra
this is 1.0?
I hate it here
cobalt pewter
hollow shell
Nah not Shackle, that'd be repetitive with Cuffs
dry latch
yeah, so if you're gonna make evils matter, then a lot more has to be changed
sand umbra
Panic honestly can remain a heart drop but like its counterpart should NOT be Starpower
hollow shell
And that's fine
sinful steeple
Also if evil islands are gone then that means that getting something made with the other evil chest weapon it'd suck to get it and also it's not like you're gonna play the same class playthrough twice just to experience like one different weapon that actually matters
sand umbra
I'm gonna say it
Scourge of the Corruptor/Cosmos is way more fucking interesting than knives
hollow shell
If you miss out on one item
That's fine
imo
sand umbra
there. I said it. and I stand by it
hollow shell
Two items, technically
sand umbra
also what Rover said
ashen warren
you can always cheat it in if you want 
sand umbra
it's not the end of the world if you miss out on a whopping like 4 items at most because you don't have a specific evil
sinful steeple
Yeah but I mean you should be able to have a choice and honestly the evil island isn't really doing much damage being off in space
hollow shell
You do have a choice
sinful steeple
It helps you if you want the stuff in it but honestly you can ignore it
hollow shell
You can download Both Evils
sand umbra
the issue is that the choice you have doesn't matter
sinful steeple
I don't mean the choice of evil
sand umbra
there are so many fucking mods that openly grant you the ability to use shit from both evils trivially easily
even easier than Cal lets you
sinful steeple
The choice of item in a certain evil if the evil island isn't present
sand umbra
Fargo's Mutant Mod lets you straight up craft Biome Chest weps using keys including alt evil chest weps
cobalt pewter
Scourge of the Corruptor/Cosmos is way more fucking interesting than knives
Ok buddy, it's not like everyone disagrees
hollow shell
I did a playthrough recently where I literally had 3 different mods with recipes for converting evil items between each other
sand umbra
mhm
ashen warren
someday someone is going to sugg to implement veinmining in cal
hollow shell
(iirc Fargo, Luiafk, and one other
I don't think it was imkSushi but I bet it also has those)
sand umbra
the veinminer implementation will come one day. and on that day, I will laugh
I will laugh and I will keep laughing until the cows come home
because it means I've officially failed in getting people to understand that Calamity does not and should not exist in a vacuum
to put it simpler: I get the joke, but until it is nothing short of hopeless trying to one-up the joke, I refuse to laugh at it
cobalt pewter
on another news: thomas will eventually go nuts
sand umbra
buddy I'm already fucking insane
it's just a matter of how long until I finally lose it entirely and just snap
now then
...I think
I have a few...additional pitches to add to my evils-related series this time around
unless of course Rover already has them covered, in which case I won't bother
dry latch
yeah, so the point I was originally gonna say but got sidetracked on: maybe include removing the boss summons of the opposite evil being sold from the dryad
sand umbra
that's actually a later sugg
involving the removal of NPCs selling alt evil shit in general
dry latch
yeah, but removing the drop, but not the boss summon seems weird
sand umbra
in fact that's the next one in the series
this particular sugg is just about Amalgam Brain and BWS being reworked/rebranded to take one evil each
next one's going to be all about those alt evil things Dryad and Merchant sell
no more alt summons. no more alt orb/heart drops. no more alt expert drops
they'll die all the same if I can gather the support of like 200 people and most of the devs, neither of which I think will happen but I can damn well try
cobalt pewter
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
dry latch
yeah, should've posted this back during the 140 star count era
hollow shell
(I don't have anything related to world evils in my doc)
dry latch
those days were wild
cobalt pewter
Ppl like their "evil no matter hee hee" thing
So it might be hard to even convince 200 ppl to vote on it
sand umbra
but it actively hurts the game
golden narwhal
feelssad
sand umbra
and now I can't even say it's not a flaw with vanilla because 1.4 fell into this exact trap
hollow shell
Too many for couch potato ed-boys such as yourself.
cobalt pewter
The biggest offender of mistakes might be melee.
sand umbra
...and yet, here I am, self-tasked with the Herculean feat of correcting every single one of them
and convincing other modders to at least make some attempts to do the same
hollow shell
tbf Calamity makes the melee problem a lot worse
sand umbra
Calamity exponentially worsens the melee problem, ye
dry latch
the other caveat with going against vanilla is that it might produce incompatibilites with other mods (I'm not really sure. am not familiar with how the code is structured). incompats will hurt the "calamity doesn't exist in a vacuum" line
hollow shell
You know how the Broken Hero Sword swords shooting blade beams is a special thing in vanilla?
sand umbra
yeah
cobalt pewter
Mhm?
cobalt pewter
It's just yet another material eh
sand umbra
pick a Calamity sword at fucking random
I can almost guarantee you it fires at least one projectile on swing
hollow shell
Now we have Amidias's Trident spewing big homing tile-ignoring glowing projectiles at 10,000 rounds per minute
cobalt pewter
And of course, materials. This isn't a big problem in vanilla afaik, but Calamity :hahaechbegone:
hollow shell
Also I don't think we'll plan on removing the graveyard crafts
even if we go in the distinct evils direction
cobalt pewter
Trident is objectively nuts
dry latch
the problem with melee is that they adapted cuz of how everything else was designed
everything fucking hurts yo
sand umbra
context-sensitive combat and similarly-sensitive contact damage does not exist in Terraria
hollow shell
I'm glad Fab removed contact damage from all the Casters
sand umbra
yes
he removed that contact damage, woohoo
...after melee became so good at avoiding contact damage via distanced fighting that it became better at doing so than the actual ranged classes
sand umbra
a step forward, yes
hollow shell
Yep, rogue
Remember all the weapons they share?
cobalt pewter
Ah yes
sand umbra
but the problem is so deeply engrained in Calamity melee design that basically the entire class would need to be rebalanced for the term "melee" to mean something again
dry latch
exactly
unreal viper
All classes are ranger but ranger is honest about it
cobalt pewter
This is why true melee is the only way to make melee
sinful steeple
Melee shouldn't be all true melee honestly
sand umbra
it's not an issue absent from vanilla, but it is certainly one that Calamity magnifies tenfold
sinful steeple
Imagine how much some of the bosses would suck
unreal viper
Tbh you’d need major boss ai changes for true melee to work
sand umbra
yeah you can't just have a boss slow down when you're holding a funny true melee weapon and call it a day
that's not really. a solution
dry latch
the problem with melee is that they adapted cuz of how everything else was designed
sand umbra
that's just putting a bandaid on it and hoping it does something
sinful steeple
Also I'm pretty sure that like flails and yoyos don't count as true melee
unreal viper
True melee skeletron and queen bee in vanilla works quite well imo
sand umbra
(spoiler alert: it doesn't)
sinful steeple
So uhh that would suck
cobalt pewter
Mage would be the most flexible in the manner due to the essentially no limitations in how the class' weapons should work aside from essentially ammo mana
sand umbra
flails and yo-yos do not count as true melee, no
hollow shell
Alright and I've realized we've jumped on the Fuck Train
sand umbra
a
hollow shell
Anybody wanna conjure a suggestion out of this? Cuz if not then we ought to stop
sand umbra
any suggestion I could cook up would fail to ever get anywhere or directly violate the "grand-scale reworks" Don't, so I won't bother
cobalt pewter
any suggestion I could cook up would fail to ever get anywhere, so I won't bother
I feel ya brother, and I know you had the most effort in doing these stuff
dry latch
will it even get in? doesn't it get denied by the "no major reworks" thing in the don'ts doc?
cobalt pewter
sand umbra
yes
unreal viper
I think I’d need to try true melee first
hollow shell
It doesn't need to be "Unfuck the entirety of melee"
but it could be some change that would go in that direction
sand umbra
there is no singular change that would produce a noticeable shift
hollow shell
like "Add a cooldown to many sword projectiles like vanilla ones (Terra Blade, Beam Sword, etc) do"
cobalt pewter
"unfuck the entirety of melee" sounds like what I'm doing with Nova Edge
Nah, I'd rather make projectile damage deal way less
sand umbra
Rover, cooldown only works when the weapon doesn't literally rely on its projectiles to be usable
the issue is that a lot of late-game melee weps especially rely on their projectiles to be effective
because they're simply not good otherwise
hollow shell
You would at least have times where you're swinging the sword and it isn't spewing shit as well
unreal viper
Hmm.
sand umbra
to grant example, I call upon the great old one of projectile swords, the king of "melee means absolutely nothing"
unreal viper
Lemme think of ways you can make true melee be practice
hollow shell
Terratomere?
sand umbra
I hereforth summon the negative IQ threshold of the Ark of the Cosmos
cobalt pewter
Reducing projectile damage is one
sand umbra
Terratomere at least can be used properly and has a function for it
golden narwhal
I see melee isn't melee talk 
cobalt pewter
Currently afaik Terra Blade and Influx Waver have projectiles that deal 100% of listed damage, or more?
sand umbra
glhf getting any "true melee" usage out of Ark
unreal viper
In the queen bee fight, she strands still to spawn hers bees. Imo it’s optimal to use true melee cause you can kill the boss as soon as they come out of her.
sand umbra
it's the single best reason I say a cooldown wouldn't really work well for Calamity's case even if applied across the board
unreal viper
But having the boss stand still seems too simple for calamity
sand umbra
Soaring's true melee attack bonus is good on paper
hollow shell
Suggestion to slightly rework Ark of the Cosmos to summon its homing stars near you on true melee hits, instead of near the cursor on all swings?
cobalt pewter
I'd rather rework every single melee to have more potency on true melee hits and less on projectiles
sand umbra
...
you have my attention, Rover
dry latch
maybe give melee slash dashes?
hollow shell
A bit.
It would still need to have its base sword beams and biome-based beams on every swing, fired from the sword
because of heavy inheritance that spans many items in the tree
but the cursor homing stars are the biggest offenders
cobalt pewter
Mmhm
hollow shell
If we can at least get that changed, that would be good
golden narwhal
That'd be a good change
sand umbra
yeah the homing stars are the big reason Ark requires literally no intelligence to use
making them spawn only on true strikes would make the weapon instantly like way more interesting and skill-based
hollow shell
I can make that suggestion if you're worried about not getting much stars, Thomas
cobalt pewter
I felt kinda bad for thomas now 
But yeah, that concept would make it at least melee
hollow shell
... I could officially suggest it directly to the devs cuz we're able to do that nowadays
but, I think it'd be good to get this issue into the public eye a bit
(and it's healthy for me to make suggs every once in a while considering I enforce em)
sand umbra
it'd be much appreciated, yeah
stars are, amusingly, quite a difficult thing for me to come across these days, for reasons I can't even really. understand
I can't tell if I'm just targeting the wrong audience or if my time has legitimately come and gone
cobalt pewter
Probably both imo
hollow shell
Your IQ may just be so high that the general public can't appreciate your astounding genius
golden narwhal
Yes
cobalt pewter
Mmmmhm
sharp ibex
just remove melee
hollow shell
No no, he has a point
golden narwhal
Sometimes the public doesn't like nerfs to what they like, despite it (generally) being for the better
sand umbra
an unfortunate truth of making suggs meant to better the game
cobalt pewter
sayonara Skyfin Bomber
unreal viper
Why change every bosses ai when yuh can just save yourself the work and cut down on weapon bloat?
sand umbra
generally, it means sacrificing something the public likes
makes it impossible to get anything done
golden narwhal
Melee getting all the love 
cobalt pewter
mans can't even get auric tier rogue donor weapons anymore smh my head
sand umbra
I should know because I will bet you my left fucking arm that's why basically none of my recent suggs have cleared star req
because my recent suggs have been about changing/removing things that people like in the name of improving the mod (and helping it prepare for the 1.4 jump)
dapper coral
the other issue is, your suggs are often long and windy, multiple including literal documents
and most people have the attention span of a housefly
cobalt pewter
This is why thomas is too big braned for the community
sand umbra
I don't do short and sweet. we've been over this. issue's that it hurts me more than it helps
it's more often than not too damn hard to condense the reasoning I have into like 1-2 lines
3 is stretching it and 4 is like "nah I'm not reading that, see ya nerd"
dapper coral
and alas, we reach the issue
cobalt pewter
the Community
dapper coral
thomas works with ideas that are much too broad/windy to appeal to the general public, and therefore he gets shafted
dry latch
nah, think that's more cuz the whole suggestions thing work better for small tweaks/additions instead of whole reworks
sand umbra
times like these I really wish I could pitch stuff directly and not have to worry about getting instantly owned by like 20 devs in secret
cobalt pewter
just ask fab to be a dev then
dapper coral
just become dev 4head
sand umbra
lmao
cobalt pewter
I would very much welcome the addition
Since relying on the community votes can be.....wild
apparently slime god is #6 on hardest calam boss what
dry latch
for it's tier, I can see that yeah
cobalt pewter
Its only problem is Distorted, which is already a dumb vanilla debuff tbh
sand umbra
wait a minute are you actually serious about the dev thing
because I can guarantee you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it is never happening
cobalt pewter
half joking ig
sand umbra
I already have a mod of my own to work on and I don't think I'd actually be able to get anything accomplished as a Calamity dev regardless
my views on where Calamity stands, and where it ought to be heading towards, differ too heavily from basically everyone else's, from what I've gathered
hollow shell
I will admit that I have considered asking if you should become a dev
We have channels for voting on changes to Calamity, we have a system of branches and pull request reviews for programmers, and a greater variety of voices is good for the team imo
And you've definitely thought long and hard about a lotta things in both Calamity and vanilla
I have not actually asked though
because I kinda know, the answer is gonna be "eh no I don't like Thomas"
sand umbra
yeah, that's about the response I'd expect
last I checked Fab doesn't exactly like me and neither do a decent chunk of the other devfolk
ashen warren
dw thomas 
cobalt pewter
hollow shell
(I like you Thomas dw) 
dapper coral
agreed 
cobalt pewter
heady storm
My main question would be if and how Thomas currently contributes to the mod.
hollow shell
There are a few devs in the dev server who do not directly contribute aside from opinions and ideas
I was one of em for a while
But Thomas also has programming experience
heady storm
Fair enough on the condition of an ideas person, always wondered how they are hired actually.
hollow shell
No set process
ashen warren
i think by contributing
dapper coral
i think ben said it was something like: contribute to mod in some way --> express interest in dev thingies --> get dev
at least, that was his experience
hollow shell
Spriters are promoted through Respected Spriter and the art CD chats
Testers are sometimes promoted to full dev status
and Dom was a bit of a special case in that he programmed before starting development
Me and Minecat were promoted through high wiki status then CD (Minecat's still a dev believe it or not)
If Thomas had a bit of a better reputation I think he'd be a definite in
There's still a chance he could get in
I think that Ozza could at least appreciate getting a big idea boy with programming experience in the team, even if he would hesitate for Thomas specifically
heady storm
It would have to be a combined decision of every lead dev from what I infer about Thomas.
heady storm
But uh, speaking of testing, Demik when you coming in again?
ashen warren
evil biomes ig?
dapper coral
try november
perhaps some killtimes would be in order in this case? or maybe just avg dps since scal is funky with all that
seeing as you mention
making it on par with (or arguably better than) ranged or magic weapons for long distance attacks.
hollow shell
I'm referring to the concept of the weapon's attacks, not necessarily the viability
Having homing projectiles spawn on the cursor when you click is something a magic weapon should do, not a sword
hollow shell
Yeah I wrote it earlier and forgot to post
dapper coral
i mean, that's fine
cobalt pewter
I might also suggest a rework to anything that offends as much as AotC
lemme just browse wiki for a hot min
dapper coral
but you say that it's better than those weapons for long-distance because of that, so i kinda wanna see some proof in that regard
although then again, that's not really the main point of the sugg
hollow shell
I'll try to reword it so that it's clearer I mean the bare concept
That should be better
dapper coral
yeah that works, coolio
heady storm
I can already see the responses this sugg will bring in nohit.
serene fox
they
heady storm
Ah, I see where you’re going at. 
serene fox
will just resort to like photo or smth
hollow shell
Exactly
sinful steeple
If you're nohitting with melee just use dragon pow or smth
Something that isn't a sword lol
hollow shell
If you want long-ranged options, use weapons from the long-ranged classes
hollow shell
If you're dedicating yourself to melee then you shouldn't expect to get that same distance
serene fox
and also has some incentive to get close
hollow shell
Exo and Ata do both have true melee strike effects
sinful steeple
To be fair you don't really need distance for the SCal fight since most of the time she's just lingering on one side of the screen
hollow shell
I have now added a melee-based SCal idea to my doc
cobalt pewter
that is extremely poggers
hollow shell
Very little hope of it getting anywhere but hey I can dream
cobalt pewter
Also I wanna repost on a suggestion I made a while back
ashen warren
nice :D
cobalt pewter
If anyone knows the official term for the mechanic I'm talking about, please do tell
ashen warren
wdym
cobalt pewter
The last sugg
hollow shell
I don't know if there's an official term for that
ashen warren
yeah me too
vocal grotto
I'm quite late to the party, but regarding Thomas, I personally would not be against that happening. I don't think I'd be for either though.
The main thing that I think would have to change is to learn to let certain things go, if that's the right term here.
He's a decent programmer.
hollow shell
(who needs to let things go, him or the devs?)
sinful steeple
That lack of moonwalking or whatever it's called is probably a bug since vanilla swords don't do that
ashen warren
new sugg
cobalt pewter
That lack of moonwalking or whatever it's called is probably a bug since vanilla swords don't do that
It's just inconsistent for vanilla afaik
serene fox
what lifesteal options do you even have for scal?
serene fox
only ones I can think of are empryean knives and auric mage set bonus
ashen warren
is the sugg in the correct format?
sinful steeple
Why would Calamity remove that
sinful steeple
Probably an artefact due to Calamity swords not being vanilla
heady storm
@crystal iron yeah heads up; there aren't that many lifesteal options for SCal to begin with, it has to be other mod's conflicting.
sinful steeple
What about auric armour
heady storm
Oh and your reasoning could use more anyway.
sinful steeple
All classes of auric armour spawn those healing balls
heady storm
Yeah exactly.
crystal iron
@heady storm I used rogue vampiric talisman and emouryan knives with lifesteal potions (more options mod)
I just think that she should be immune overall cuz she's an engame boss so it's only fair she'd be immune to life steal like moonlord
sinful steeple
Vampiric talisman caps at 6 health a crit
heady storm
Oh, then definitely the other mod interfering.
ashen warren
can you tell us all the mods you have?
heady storm
And that reasoning just ties in with what you already have, you need something other than that is what I'm trying to say.
crystal iron
Theres a lot but the only one that adds any lifesteal is the MorePotions mod @ashen warren
heady storm
Also, some people claim Vampiric doesn't even work on SCal.
crystal iron
Lifesteal potions does 5% of damage into lifesteal capped at 10
ashen warren
but iirc scal has no life steal
sinful steeple
Empyrean knives only heal for 0.5% damage
heady storm
So, it's literally just the third party mod?
heady storm
Then I see no reason for this sugg to exist when it's already implemented.
crystal iron
Well fair enough thank you for the clarification
heady storm
Next time do check with just calamity enabled please.
ashen warren
if you wanna fight scal without lifesteal just disble the lifesteal mods lamo
¯_(ツ)_/¯
heady storm
It's been explained now, no need to continue.
hot vault
if i may, i’ll add that the empyrean knives bypass canGhostHeal, so shouldn’t that mean they can lifesteal from sCal?
hollow shell
Yes, domino
Vampiric Talisman also bypasses it.
So, that sugg was hardly "already implemented"
but other mods were indeed interfering so it was invalid for that reason
heady storm
Vampiric Talisman also bypasses it.
Wait what now? I remember people testing it themselves and it apparently didn't work.
hollow shell
I can check source in the morning
heady storm
(Nighty when you get to it Rover.)
ashen warren
I"ll check
heady storm
I could also actually.
sinful steeple
I was just gonna because I'm not doing anything rn
ashen warren
Vampiric tali does not appear to bypass ghostheal
sinful steeple
Yeah it didn't seem to do anything for me either
crude geode
I wholly agree with Rover’s suggestion regarding Ark of the Cosmos, it’s completely unnecessary when you already have the myriad of projectiles coming from the sword and out towards the enemy like a sword Gatling gun
cobalt pewter
Melee is just a mistake
tawny garden
Melee is just a mistake
the whole class?
cobalt pewter
yes
tawny garden
cobalt pewter
tawny garden
damnit I missed so many suggs while sleeping
doesn't Wod's sugg only have "that'd be awesome" as a reason?
frail mantle
lore-related reasoning is generally kinda ech
tawny garden
ah yes, the famous two-vertical-bars yharon phase
frail mantle
also even if we're thinking lore-wise, remember that basically everything lore-related we make is basically a chinese bootleg version of the real thing
frail mantle
yea
tawny garden
hm, is suggesting post-SCal stuff allowed?
the doc only technically talks about shadowspec iirc
cobalt pewter
Is sis
tawny garden
also
if whatever happens in-game doesn't match the lore, you go to @sinful violet instead of <@&242038163512623104>
cobalt pewter
Auric ore is already plenty though
I'm p sure the entirety of veins in the world suffices for everything afaik
tawny garden
tbh the veins are so chunky that you only need to mine a few of them
cobalt pewter
Mhm
golden narwhal
Imma just
@coral moss Whole section above, bottom part's an SIS and lore reasons are ech apparently
heady storm
Aight then, done.
cobalt pewter
golden narwhal
tawny garden
doesn't Wod's sugg only have "that'd be awesome" as a reason?
tawny garden
tawny garden
eh
I wouldn't consider it as future content sugg
cobalt pewter
I didn't follow fully when the sugg was initially up, only when I asked about stratus torches
tawny garden
@plain flare you gotta have a more substantial reason then "that'd be awesome"
golden narwhal
The reasoning kinda for asthetics and consistency with dye, ig
tawny garden
well, that should be stated
heady storm
Another sugg I need to exclaim?
cobalt pewter
Nothing else from what I seen
sleek hornet
so i found that those three ores have lower ore value than crystal heart's whereas in that point in the game you wouldnt need crystal heart anymore
golden narwhal
Do you mean 'don't have'?
cobalt pewter
What page is that
sleek hornet
ah you know what i meant
cobalt pewter
It's just the fuckery with vanilla Metal Detector tbh
I'd honestly make it so that Crystal Heart and Life Fruit tile values go down a few bosses after their intended progression
e.g. Crystal Heart value down after WoF is killed, and Life Fruit value down after Plantera
sleek hornet
yea, it should be like that,
sleek hornet
but i dont think its doable with mods tho
golden narwhal
Imo move the plantera lock to ml, since plant is only halfway through hm
sleek hornet
okay
golden narwhal
Expand upon the reasoning to include what ore value is and the metal detector, since the average player prolly doesn't know what it is
golden narwhal
I'm assuming it's rejected to keep borealis as an 'active' weapon
cobalt pewter
Carpal tunnel: 
tawny garden
if a sugg was rejected, will this one be a bluecheck?
cause rn all rules just state "if was delivered", so it would
but that wouldn't make much sense
serene fox
the one that didn't get enough votes got bluechecked so I'd assume so yeah
heady storm
If it at least got delivered, it gets blue checked.
tawny garden
ye, problem is
the sugg literally won't change anything
heady storm
If it at least got delivered, it gets blue checked.
This won’t be changed afaIk.
tawny garden
cause the only thing that'll happen if it reaches the req is that [highly_suggested] (or whatever is the tag) will be placed on the rejected sugg
effectively immediately rejecting this one as well
so the sugg is doomed
but then there's no point in allowing to suggest stuff which was previously rejected after the cut-off date
gusty carbon
@gusty scarab squirrel squire's AI isn't gonna get changed, the devs are keeping it that way because it's funny as hell
tawny garden
violet dagger
:squirrel:
gusty scarab
It’s all fun and games until you have to kill Wulfrum rolly bois with a copper pick
gusty carbon
you have other copper weapons at the start of the game. you can also resummon the squirrel and lock it on
gusty scarab
- I threw them out because I was doing summoner
- How do you lock it on
gusty carbon
right click holding any summon weapon
tawny garden
holy fuck
just realized that you'll have to kill Rover over the course of the game
never playing it again
gusty carbon
also rovers are very easy to deal with. just stand on a three block high pillar or ledge
gusty scarab
Even if I did lock it on it still wouldn’t actually land hits
The only Wulfrum enemies it has a chance against are a trapped Hovercraft or a Pylon
gusty carbon
i have never had a problem with wulfrum enemies in any of my pure summoner runs
it takes a lil while but you learn to get good at dodging very quickly
gusty scarab
I eventually did get it by just mining the enemies and now I got the weapon and it sucks
gusty carbon
you'll get something much better after like two minutes in the underground desert
gusty scarab
At least it can aim but it takes a year to kill a zombie
gusty carbon
that's generally how pre-boss summons are
gusty scarab
I was told Summoner was the easiest class and it wasn’t
gusty carbon
summoner is the easiest class. you only need to focus on dodging
but it has its weaknesses, and low damage sometimes is one of them
really the other weapons are just to get you the stormjaw staff, and that melts most pre-boss things anyway
gusty scarab
Isn’t the Belladonna better?
violet dagger
Belladonna is 
sleek hornet
but iirc you get stormlion first
@gusty carbon not really tho, you can go to the jungle right after you obtain the wulfrum drone
mossy badge
@coral moss The auric bars we use are a ripoff of Draedons, so of course he didnt have to kill his own dragon
sleek hornet
wait so its not the true auric?
sleek hornet
wow, i cannot imagne what is the true one will be
mossy badge
most likely yharim will drop some sort of way to get the true auric stuff
gusty scarab
ok
violet dagger
The auric Sugg just seems like an attempt to break as many dont's as possible
tawny garden
nah, don't think it is
ashen warren
the buffed blood moon could use a new miniboss that drops bloodstone post ml i guess because rebeating the same bosses like brimmy and clonamitas for bloodstone is just plain out lazy
I think we had this discussion before
hollow shell
That would be nice too yes
cobalt pewter
Honestly just reducing mob spawns and replacing them with new minibosses would actually make the events interesting
Make them all-miniboss events past a certain point or smth
gaunt quest
1.4 has minibosses for the blood moon maybe they can drop the blood stone lol
After its buffed or something lol
hollow shell
Well that's just pushing the same problem somewhere else
gaunt quest
There will already be enough blood moon minibosses lol there is like 5 of them that's alot for one event imo
sinful violet
Making only enemies drop the bloodstone kills treasure bag cheese as well
cobalt pewter
they can still do it for Rav's stuff, but yes
no more for Bloodstone cheese if that'd happen
novel belfry
wait why are global emotes being removed?
tepid root
because discord
cobalt pewter
They need them nitro muni
frail mantle
discord wants people to buy Nitro
cobalt pewter
tawny garden
Also the platform that they partnered with to allow people to get global emotes went bust
tawny garden
Lmao no
unreal viper
Wut are global emotes?
violet dagger
Please tell me it's not the basic emotes
dapper coral
until october
it's the emotes that you can use anywhere that aren't basic emotes
so, for example, 
tawny garden
Nah it's these peepo emotes & crap of that sort
Ye
These resulted out of the partnership with GameWisp
But GameWisp yeeted itself out of existense earlier this year
I've never used a global emote, my soul is clear
Eh
Vehemence is a butcherer weapon already lol
823543 base damage
dapper coral
solution: don't use vehemence
tawny garden
Or damage him a bit and then use Vehemence
hollow shell
Hmmm
tawny garden
hollow shell
@vagrant elbow You could extend this to Yharon and SCal as well, as they both have anti-butchers. Considering Vehemence is meant to be the butcher weapon, it's strange for them to not have an exception for getting hit by Vehemence.
sturdy geyser
anti butchers kinda weird overall tbh
vagrant elbow
yes but i cant hit kill yharon nor scal with it, but still helps a lot
i didnt use much on yharon or scal, because other weapons are much more reliable on this
i dont think anti butchers are bad but when it negates a weapon functionally is a problem
hollow shell
Indeed
Your reason could be elaborated more to describe that (along with adding SCal and Yharon)
that Vehemence is designed to be a butcher
unreal viper
Anti butchers imo are completely useless
Let’s say I have cheatsheet for example
I can’t use butcher
So I turn on godmode and use an endgame weapon
hollow shell
I am also not wholly sure why anti-butchers exist
tawny garden
Iirc there was a sugg to get rid of em
hollow shell
Probably a while ago, I don't have that in recent memory
tawny garden
now if smb bothers to implement
hm, Rover
are any "tribute to Siren" suggs gonna be accepted?
cause the dev that left didn't want any of this in the game, so I presume they're not
but the doc only mentions THE LORDE as an exception
hollow shell
yeaaah probably wouldn't be a good idea to leave that open for suggesting
tawny garden
so yeah, that should be reflected in the doc
hollow shell
I do wish I had examples for the top line that actually could have tribute items
tawny garden
also I requested edit rights on the doc for some reason
hollow shell
(I guess Pinkie would see that)
tawny garden
I do wish I had examples for the top line that actually could have tribute items
Astrageldon Slem
dapper coral
YuH's item is an exception to that iirc, ye
radiant meadow
patron items are generally terrible examples for most things
tawny garden
also #wiki-discussion is still #calamity-wiki-discussion in the doc
hollow shell
Ah thanks
golden narwhal
Did smth happen to the bot, because some suggs are still in posting
dapper coral
that's interesting
it's still online
i guess i'll just approve these manually then
aaaand the bot's not taking ✅
@ashen warren suggbot is still online but it's not touched 5 suggs and it also won't approve stuff via ✅
golden narwhal
bot is stressed from all the suggs
dapper coral
i'll copypaste these in manually, i guess
we have been making some various changes lately so i wonder if that's part of it
dapper coral
oh alright then
hollow shell
@heady storm Why'd Wod's Astral Torch sugg invalid? Has it since been fixed?
(s'not the best suggestion overall but I think it's passable)
frail mantle
i think it was because the reasoning was kinda mostly "it'd be cool"
at least that's what was said during the discussion
hollow shell
Reasoning does boil down to "normal torches looked ugly." and "there already being the Astral Dyes."
Which I mean, they're in there
frail mantle
yea i personally wouldn't say the reasoning is purely "it'd be cool", more that it's just a bit lacking
dapper coral
Thanks amber :D
hollow shell
^ 👍
ashen warren
Shouldn’t the latest sugg be a ❗
tawny garden
it's smol
dapper coral
Rover did say this when they responded
Your reason could be elaborated more to describe that (along with adding SCal and Yharon)
that Vehemence is designed to be a butcher
so i would call that an ❗
sinful violet
If I recall yharon anti butcher wasn't removed because otherwise it consistently skips phase 2, not giving yharon a chance to heal.
heady storm
I’ll remove the exclamation I placed then @hollow shell.
sinful violet
Fab's adamant on keeping DoG's because it's a reference to some game, esp with the dialogue it has.
hollow shell
@vagrant elbow
You ought to edit your suggestion with that stuff I brought up earlier
EDIT: Not SCal and Yharon, turns out those were different from what I thought. Just elaborate more on your reason about how Vehemence is designed to be a butcher and should therefore be excluded from the anti-butcher.
tawny garden
and the SCal anti-butcher then?
sinful violet
SCal ig is because SuperBoss™
I'll bring up removing the anti butcher when draedon's added and she loses that status
hollow shell
Yharon's anti-butcher could at least be made a lot more lenient
cuz it's currently every 1/20th health
sinful violet
I think Yharon's anti butcher was or should be changed to just bring it down to 10% health at least, and should just kill it outright in p2
Yeah
sinful violet
I remember talking about it with fab in gentalk, not sure if he did it or not
hollow shell
I was spittin all that good shit a second ago
but never mind, Yharon has no anti-butcher.
And SCal's is also 1/2 HP instead of 1/20 like it used to be.
Yharon does have something that prevents him from dropping loot unless he gets below 1/10 HP, so he won't drop anything if you kill him while he's above that
but, nothing stops the damage.
tawny garden
he won't drop anything if you kill him while he's above that
even Omega Healing Potions?
hollow shell
He might?
Ah and he also has something that negates the damage if he's below 10% health but hasn't started Phase 2 yet
Oh and...
actually
It seems that he does have a very special anti-butcher for Phase 1
Mrrp was right
If you butcher Yharon at any point above 10% health in phase 1, it will set his life to 10%
tawny garden
Ah and he also has something that negates the damage if he's below 10% health but hasn't started Phase 2 yet
wdym by "negates"?
If you butcher Yharon at any point above 10% health in phase 1, it will set his life to 10%
this?
tawny garden
ah
hollow shell
So uhhhh
Aight Lucas maybe don't mention Yharon cuz it actually will have an effect on him
I dunno if Vehemence is strong enough to trigger SCal's anti-butcher
now that I know it's 1/2
He can try I guess
copper turret
