ozz stated before that it is "designed to suck" because it cant be objectively better than the normal option (just spam throwing) from a balancing standpoint ye
#suggestions-discussion
foggy plover
sand umbra
where's the message
foggy plover
so its both designed to suck, and does in practice
foggy plover
(even though I disagree entirely and I love stealth personally)
sand umbra
cobalt pewter
Honestly, isn't it odd that a supposedly harder method of damaging is designed to be worse than spamming?
Like
sand umbra
stealth is a good idea on paper but the issue is summed up very well by this message
cobalt pewter
what
foggy plover
I think it should be better than the normal throw but not by much
sand umbra
given the context of Terraria's horrendously oversimplified combat system, stealth is not only designed to suck, but it is required to
foggy plover
like 5-10% better
hollow shell
I think it should be significantly better
sand umbra
^
hollow shell
Or at the very least, make spam-throwing significantly worse for Rogue
cobalt pewter
"It's required to suck"
'scuse me lemme get my unsee juice
foggy plover
its really not that hard to use rn
hollow shell
That way it has a different gameplay dynamic to three other classes
hollow shell
Summoner doesn't really do spam
cobalt pewter
Ah yes
hollow shell
I mean it kinda does for support weps but that's not the focus
foggy plover
byeah, I love the idea of charging up and aiming well to achieve a higher dps on one throw rather than spamming
cobalt pewter
But anyway, I really wanna do rogue in my own mod with a lot more focus and reward on stealth
hollow shell
With rogue, optimal stealth strikes should make the fight go noticeably faster than other classes
and spamming should be noticeably slower (but probably not painfully so)
Instead of both being roughly the same
cobalt pewter
To kinda spite on calam's
hollow shell
because that's fucking boring
cobalt pewter
foggy plover
rn it depends entirely on the weapon
now you could either change all the weapons, or change the system
and that brings us to the problem
sand umbra
a shame that even if it did statistically gain more DPS than spamming your weapon by a sizable margin, still nobody would use it because it requires you doing something that is entirely impractical and in fact borders on "directly discouraged" in the context stealth exists in
cobalt pewter
Honestly tho, I can get phat stealth strikes against dog because standing still is completely feasible there
At least on a skybridge
foggy plover
ngl I completely ignore standing still as a mechanic
hollow shell
Dan Yami gave me the good wisdom about how none of the melee weapons in SoA have any homing, and I haven't really stopped thinking about that
Separate issue though
foggy plover
like I disregard it entirely when speaking about stealth
cobalt pewter
Dan Yami gave me the good wisdom about how none of the melee weapons in SoA have any homing, and I haven't really stopped thinking about that
Separate issue though
@hollow shell Verdict melts Equinox Worms tho, fr
hollow shell
That's not SoA lol
cobalt pewter
Wait fuck
sand umbra
wrong mod 
foggy plover
but yes, im sure if the pay off is good enough a lot of people would use it
foggy plover
which then loops back to the balancing problem
sand umbra
in any event
the problem of standing still producing higher damage output being entirely impractical is mitigated by the later accessories and the fact that stealth as of a few updates is now also capable of building, albeit at a slower rate, while moving
however
this brings us to the other fundamental problem with stealth
if you are going to tell your player to stop spamming their weapon for a decent length of time, you had better have an impressive display on speed dial for when they're ready to use it
sand umbra
this is the other thing that stealth lacks
not only are multiple stealth strikes entirely underwhelming in practice, but the damage performed by a stealth strike in the majority of cases will consistently fail to keep up with the DPS you would get in the same amount of time by spamming the weapon
foggy plover
theres much better than that, but yes its a good one
rn theres a lot that are actually worth using
like very much worth using
which I stated earlier, you are gonna either have to make all the stealth strikes like that, or change the system entirely
cobalt pewter
The Final Dawn's alt stealth would be mega fun to use if yeeting into shit wouldn't be so risky
foggy plover
and changing a fuck ton of stealth strikes is not gonna be fun for devs
cobalt pewter
Also the way weapons with melee and rogue variant is kinda weird to me as well
foggy plover
those are a whole seperate beast
cobalt pewter
That stripped a good chunk of variety stealth rogue could've had
sand umbra
appropriate segway into--
wait a minute I can't post my hybrid weps doc here because it'd never be allowed as a suggestion
fuck
cobalt pewter
KEK
foggy plover
ive had thoughts for hybrid solutions
sand umbra
it is super specific and for good reason
cobalt pewter
I mean, if it's for the system as a whole, wouldn't that be fine?
Or is it a specific item?
sand umbra
tl;dr I made a doc recently which overhauls the concept of hybrid weps
foggy plover
I just say fuck hybrids and split them between melee and rogue lol
sand umbra
including assessing every hybrid wep dedicateds notwithstanding and presenting a few new concepts
spoiler alert: boomerangs almost all become rogue-specific and the Pwnagehammer line becomes what I should've made it to begin with
foggy plover
byeah for the suggestions part of this discussion what ideas do we actually have for "fixing" stealth
sand umbra
any idea which one could present has almost undoubtedly been presented within the past month
cobalt pewter
I think I did submit some rough and dumb ideas for making stealth earlier in the game more rewarding
This one ig
sand umbra
which is precisely why I didn't want to get into this conversation: at this point, any suggestions regarding stealth are not only further driving home a point already made quite clear, perhaps too much so, but would be more or less stating nothing but information the devs already possessed or concepts they'd already seen and acknowledged
foggy plover
tbh I kind of just wanted ideas/thoughts for fixing it that I could bring up with ozza
because I think he wants to work on it at some point
hollow shell
Ozza had his own full stealth rework idea the other day
sand umbra
literally the message I linked is within a long conversation where Ozz himself talks about a rework idea for stealth that presumably would make it viable
foggy plover
ye I think I was there iirc
violet dagger
another question about deus:
is it intended that he can attack you while he still has protection, it's p unfair that he can do tons of dmg to you while u cant do anything to him
just asking since I might sugg some changes to deus that could make him a bit better
foggy plover
that's so you can't absolutely shred him while he's bundled up, same thing for destroyer
violet dagger
no but it lasts way after he uncoils
cobalt pewter
That's intended with most worms yes
no but it lasts way after he uncoils
@violet dagger it's just an oversight in the length of Deus and the default protection duration
foggy plover
its not way, its like 4 seconds at most from what ive seen
violet dagger
ye
cobalt pewter
And yes, I do notice it being slightly longer
foggy plover
its that specific time because he takes ages to uncoil sometimes
violet dagger
i just find it unfair that he gets to attack you while u cant attack him
cobalt pewter
I'd personally rework the protection altogether
Instead of 99.9999999% DR
The worms would just be invul and cannot deal contact dmg
foggy plover
like DoG?
cobalt pewter
In a sense yes
violet dagger
ye
foggy plover
honestly dont know why its not like that already
cobalt pewter
Leaving the head and tail vulnerable during this state is fine too
So basically p1 dog
violet dagger
also my main thing I want to see about deus is making the mines and lasers more spaced out (mainly the mines for me) since sometimes i get to where there's an undodgable line of them and then u just get sniped by him for something out of your control
you can rod through them
but if we're assuming the player doesnt have rod(which they should) then it can be a problem just being walled like that
cobalt pewter
Get Deus off the screen, iirc he moves faster while so, hence making the mines more spaced out
foggy plover
that depends on how fast deus is moving, because he shoots them from each segment one after another
yea ^
so it can sort of be manipulated
violet dagger
I'll keep that in mind
in my later fights i saw that i was getting less of that
I just beat him so these are just some changes imo that would improve him
cobalt pewter
I personally prefer this less chaotic Deus over the previous, literal mess one
cobalt pewter
The fight is just a lot more coherent and fun now
violet dagger
I like how in the second phase it makes you pay attention to both
cobalt pewter
I legitimately have no clue what I'm doing in previous patches
cobalt pewter
I just fly around, drop down with slime mount, slap dps, rinse and repeat
violet dagger
and what the ais decide to do
violet dagger
new one makes you pay attention
which a boss fight should
and it's fun most importantly
same with new ravager
except old one didnt require much attention
unique reef
the only issue I have with new Deus is that he's invulnerable too long after the split
he takes like no damage until 10 seconds after the split
violet dagger
^
that's a problem i have
also I'd prefer a config for the spawn animation since it's cool but I dont want to watch it each time, most of the time i want to just do the boss
hollow shell
Or have it play only the first three or five times you do the boss
and afterward it's just instant
cobalt pewter
I find the spawn animation oddly calming
So I usually don't mind it playing a lot
It could be gone faster after Deus is killed tho
hollow shell
@cobalt pewter Tags are dynamic.
If it just listed a plaintext username (or worse, nickname) that's subject to change in the future
While the tags sometimes fail to load they will always be up to date when they load
(to answer your 3rd point)
cobalt pewter
Hmm
hollow shell
I do think it would be fine to display both their current plaintext name and tag them
that should be fine
cobalt pewter
I guess I'll ditch the 3rd point
There
I don't mind having both yes
It just ticks me off when, like, everything is @invalid-user in mobile
Like ffs
hollow shell
Yeaaah
On PC you can at least copy the ID number that shows up into search and use that
but on mobile you got no such luck
cobalt pewter
Yeah, big sad moment right there
hollow shell
@distant gyro If you can respond and/or edit in time (if not that's fine too):
What do you mean by your third point in the Ravager leg spark sugg? I'm not sure I understand the comparison to the head. And when you say that he can "lose this attack (almost) immediately", I don't know if you're referring to the fact that the attack stops becoming active mid-way through the fight, or if you mean that the devs can easily remove the attack.
distant gyro
i stated earlier that he stops doing the attack when the second phase hits
this is not the same for his head attack
hollow shell
aight
That can be a little clearer
like "Ravager can lose this attack (almost) immediately due to the fact that it stops occurring once the second phase arrives,"
distant gyro
it's like if i need to re-explain that the spark only sticks to the floor only in my second point
hollow shell
aight that's better, thanks
gray nebula
idk if someone else mentioned this already but you can easily search for your suggestions by searching for messages posted in the voting channel containing your user id
cobalt pewter
@gray nebula that's new to me, but another point kinda explains why: mobile is a massive bag of fuck
Oh also not everyone would even know what a User ID is
Allowing search by the username stamped on the sugg would be slightly more intuitive
tawny garden
Allowing search by the username stamped on the sugg would be slightly more intuitive
that's not really possible to do, as mentions don't work in embeds
there is an embed field that allows you to have a username (and even the pfp!) stamped onto the message, but markup on that field, sadly, isn't parsed at all, so you can't have clickable mentions in that field
discord is kinda restrictive there
tawny garden
Feedza's sugg was the first one that was approved by the bot
cobalt pewter
ashen warren
epic
tawny garden
3 words
weak field
And is also implemented within several other mods
Like luiafk
And ceaseless void potion 
tawny garden
@obtuse torrent specific item suggestions aren't allowed
unique reef
radiant meadow
It's not a specific item suggestion tho
weak field
Plus there's ceaseless void potion which acts just like an item magnet
obtuse torrent
oh we do? whats it called?
ashen warren
Plus there's ceaseless void potion which acts just like an item magnet
radiant meadow
Ceaseless Hunger Potion
golden narwhal
(Also one coming a decade later with vanilla)
obtuse torrent
was looking for that exact thing 
gray nebula
just wear the statigel armor to become statis 
violet dagger
Soon™️
novel kite
just wear the statigel armor to become statis :okay:
@gray nebula fair enough, but it was just an example 😔
gray nebula
also theres calamity vanities with ltos of stuff like that so maybe they have what youre searching for?
violet dagger
oh yes the mod part made by the same guy who researched like a billion old calam version for wiki
novel kite
Well, I fought nighttime providence recently and I liked the idea of getting a cool vanity thing by doing a hard challenge, so I had this idea of getting a vanity set to look like a cool lore character after beating a lot of end game bosses (to farm for treasure bags)
But idk if it's a great idea, it's just an idea I had haha
weak field
Night time provi dye already exist
novel kite
Exactly, as I said, the providence dye is what led me to this idea haha
frail mantle
@strong jacinth respond to suggestions in here, not #suggestions-posting
strong jacinth
apoligies
frail mantle
no worries
violet dagger
someone delete
void kelp
tawny garden
ty
unique reef
was there a suggestion to make the Wulfrum fliers less annoying?
ashen warren
Calamity Vanity Mod
violet dagger
:echsad:
dapper coral
@shell grotto
sleek turret
violet dagger
ngl that could be a good deathmode indicator
aside from them not getting buffed
maybe the silver part could be a darker color
sleek turret
heat & cold accesories stats only appear when you are on Death
tawny garden
a better one would be something that is buffed by death
sand umbra
a.k.a. nothing
sleek turret
so thats an indicator of Death Mode.
cobalt pewter
That's too subtle
tawny garden
maybe the silver part could be a darker color
whoa, you've lowballed yourself and started to write a specific thing
radiant meadow
Reasoning could probably be as simple as another way to distinguish the modes for user convenience/interface.
violet dagger
wasnt there supposed to be on screen indicators but it got cancelled bc coding it was
shell grotto
didnt know the dmg was not changed anymore, my b, even so I still think it would not be too much to ask for a helpful full-uptime indicator
but I fully understand if not, i'm just saying it could help
tawny garden
hate to make it sound like, you know, a trap, but the whole point of the beehive is to easily break and screw you over
(although "screw you over" was an overstatement, it doesn't really do that)
violet dagger
its more like fuck you up when doing boss fights near the jungle
cobalt pewter
1.4 fixed this iirc
tawny garden
I did QB in the forest 
cobalt pewter
So it won't break from Faraway
craggy stratus
there has been a lot of suggestions related to SG
unique reef
even though SG is a pushover when you are prepared?
hollow shell
@shell grotto Your suggestion still says Rage and Adren are stronger in Death. You should edit that out.
shell grotto
yep, will do now. thanks.
hollow shell
Thank you
I remember there being some argument about Kristaps's Fearmonger sugg. Is it alright, does it need editing?
rose jewel
What should I add/change to mine
frail mantle
you wouldn't even be able to use fragments pre-cultist
hollow shell
@void marsh You could/should also mention Fearmonger's damage output in your suggestion, to show that it's outright better than summoner godslayer
(though I still disagree cuz GS has a revive and other effects)
frail mantle
aside from maybe making super healing potions
rose jewel
Oh yeah I forgot about ancient manipulator
gray nebula
hey the tooltip is a reference to the funny game
hollow shell
@ashen warren That's a Specific Item Suggestion, that isn't allowed
ashen warren
So you need to donate?
hollow shell
Yes
gray nebula
you could see it like that
ashen warren
Sure then
frail mantle
if you want it in-game, yes
gray nebula
can't donate for post scal stuff though
ashen warren
Hmmm
hollow shell
You can ask for an upgrade to RTN in these channels, as long as you don't go into the specifics
ashen warren
What about pre SCaL?
frail mantle
though do note that the devs have some restrictions on donator content and might not approve every donator item idea you have
gray nebula
that's allowed but what rover said ^
hollow shell
aighty
rose jewel
Do you think a suggestion about Astrum Deus dropping meld blobs would be good
hollow shell
Could be fine
tawny garden
hm, iirc that was sugged and 🚫ed
but you can try again
hm, Kristaps' sugg is weirdly worded
you could remove that "please" from the title
void marsh
sorry about the weirdly worded suggestion. i didn't know how else to word it
and i will remove that
tawny garden
and it's "defense", not "defence"
frail mantle
suggs should be worded like demands
formal and polite demands, yet still demands
hollow shell
That's a dialect thing, Philo
tawny garden
really?
hollow shell
Ye
hollow shell
I would personally add a comparison to God Slayer armor too, as that's on the same tier but there's not much reason for Summoner to go for it instead
void marsh
i honestly think that comparing it to auric tesla is better, because if the defence is better than auric tesla summoner, then there is no doubt that it will also be better than the god slayer summoner armour
void marsh
also, the reason why i was writing that suggestion is because Fearmonger is a viable armour set against SCal
and for a set that is right after DoG, that shouldn't make sense
hollow shell
m, that would be another good thing to include in the sugg
void marsh
i am pretty sure that i included that by comparing fearmonger to auric tesla, which is the go-to armour set for SCal
hollow shell
It is vaguely implied, not stated
It could/should be stated
Hang on, your sugg's about to go through
void marsh
nice
hollow shell
nerf the defence of the Fearmonger armour set
why am i asking? well, compare the defence of the Fearmonger armour set to that of the Auric Tesla armour (with the summoner helmet) and you will see that the Fearmonger armour set gives more defence. also, on top of that, the Fearmonger armour set also adds the ability to regen faster as long as your summons are dealing damage the armour set gives an 11% damage bonus with another 40% summon damage bonus on top of all of this
here now you can repost it with more edits 
void marsh
thanks
and i copied it from you because when i switch channels, it lags a bit
nerf the Fearmonger armour set
why am i asking? compare the damage bonuses the Fearmonger armour set gives to the damage bonuses the God Slayer armour gives (with summoner helmet) . you will see that the Fearmonger armour set gives a +11% damage bonus as well as a +40% summon damage bonus. however, the God Slayer armour gives +10% damage from the chest piece, +10% damage from the leggings and +65% summon damage as a set bonus. you will see that the damage bonuses are closely similar and you need to remember that the Fearmonger armour set is supposed to be a tank option for the summoner class, where you are supposed to take more hits at the cost of dealing significantly less damage. also, because of these stats, the Fearmonger armour set is more viable against SCal, but it is available right after DoG. therefore, the armour set could be nerfed by either reducing the damage bonuses given by the Fearmonger armour set, or keeping the stats, but changing the recipe to include a post Yharon Phase 2 ingredient
hollow shell
Ah, just noticed you don't have a period/full stop between the life regen sentence and the damage sentence
In my opinion (you don't necessarily have to do it) you could generalize your argument to just be nerfing the set in general
iirc it was designed to be a tank armor, so if anything the damage output should be nerfed, to make other summoner sets around/after that tier better for damage but worse for survivability compared to Fearmonger
void marsh
i actually haven't thought about fearmonger being a tank option for summoners, because summoners tend to stay as far away from things that hurt as possible, whilst also staying close enough for the summons to be able to target an enemy or boss
hollow shell
Yeah
The reason why it has all the defense and life regen and Buffed Moon resistance and debuff immunities
is cuz it's a tank armor
void marsh
that makes more sense
hollow shell
:(
frail mantle
no
hollow shell
You're gonna need to explain what you mean better, and give a big good reason for it
tawny garden
@wooden pecan stop
gray nebula
incredible publicity stunt
hollow shell
oh he said it in every channel he's gotta get warned
robust lava
Ah, so they're not just doing it in bugs
frail mantle
@wooden wedge kill
tawny garden
they left
wooden wedge
who
tawny garden
lol
frail mantle
kirby except he left
safe sail
wait rover u talkin to me?
hollow shell
no
frail mantle
thank ye
hollow shell
Your sugg seems fine groove
void marsh
@hollow shell scroll up and look at what i changed my suggestion to
and tell me if this is far better than what i originally wrote
hollow shell
ah I see
I didn't realize they were so close actually
void marsh
for the stats i wrote for the GS armour set, i looked at the individual pieces of the armour whilst also looking at the set bonus you get when wearing the full set with the horned helm (the summoner helm)
hollow shell
You could re-add that it's a viable armor for SCal due to its tankiness, as a reason for why the damage aspect should be significantly reduced
void marsh
this would actually give a reason for the Fearmonger armour set to be as good as it is right now, because simply looking at those stats screams SCal stats
not to mention that the fearmonger chest piece gives +100 health
hollow shell
(cuz 51% Fear vs 85% GS actually sounds like a fair balance on its own)
void marsh
yeah
i changed it slightly
i removed the specification to nerf the damage exactly, so that i can say that the armour could be nerfed by either decreasing the damage bonuses, or by making the armour set post Yharon phase 2
sleek turret
ah yes, Wrath of the Ancients, or known by me "forbidden sun for pre-golem", its actually a good idea making it a summoner weapon, since it shoots spark at a determined place.
hollow shell
Why Forbidden Sun?
sleek turret
idk, i call it like that because idk
hollow shell
ok
sleek turret
Forbidden Sun is slow but acts as a Inferno Fork but with bigger hitbox.
Deals good damage too.
tawny garden
looks good
robust lava
@ashen warren #bugs-read-pins
weak field
Mod interactions 
untold cargo
Labs are already quite broken
violet dagger
hollow shell
We do indeed have a bugs channel
untold cargo
Also calamity doesn’t need to dominate over more mods
robust lava
But also, mod conflicts are
ashen warren
im trying to play with calamity, EA, AA, spirit, and redemption and world gen is ass
violet dagger
suggs to fix smth bc you played with multiple big content mods with overlapping structures should be a dont tbh
hollow shell
Jesus Christ you're asking for trouble
hollow shell
Just throw in Enigma too while you're at it
ashen warren
no ew
hollow shell
Qwerty's
ashen warren
these 5 are fine any more my pc will die
unreal viper
For the fearmonger nerf sugg.
robust lava
Calamity Yoyo bag buffed
unreal viper
You might wanna mention the minion slot difference.
violet dagger
empress' den would spawn in the ocean from all those structures
void marsh
is that better?
unreal viper
Yes, thank you.
stiff karma
Rename Torch God’s Favor to Calamitas’ Favor
violet dagger
future content sugg
robust lava
Also that just seems like unnecessarily changing something in vanilla
whole sedge
That doesn't even make sense also from any way I look at it
void marsh
it would make more sense to add the torch god as a secret pre hardmode boss as a nod to the item
unreal viper
@glossy ruin if you keep this sugg like this you don’t have a chance at getting stars. Consider rewording it to be less aggressive at the very least.
hollow shell
Well the time's running out on it with the ❗ so it's just going to get yeeted
sand umbra
is this my time to shine
is this my time to create literally that exact sugg but with no emotion and cold, hard facts
hollow shell
You could
void marsh
first, it would be best for you plan the suggestion out to get it as good as possible
then see if it is worth posting or not
radiant meadow
well, slime god is getting toned down a bit in the hotfix
so it would be in your benefit to wait
and see how it is afterward
violet dagger
this better be included with the resprite
radiant meadow
the resprite isn't getting added this hotfix most likely
hollow shell
yeah cuz the spriter's still gotta do the minions and stuff
radiant meadow
it's animated already
unreal viper
Make the sugg in chunks.
radiant meadow
but there's still the minions and projectiles
and the blight slimes should get touched up as well
void marsh
it is likely that the sprite will be updated in the 1.4.6 calamity update
violet dagger
im glad its getting resprited since it had that sprite since like when the wiki was made
which is like january 2017
i do remember those old videos were sg was just a really weird blue and purple slime that had 2 phases
tawny garden
and in that time DoG was resprited
more than once
much more than once
too many times to count
violet dagger
let's see then
he had that weird looking sprite
then he went to one that looks like a wayyy better purple destroyer
then he went to an improvement of that that looks nothing like mr stormbow destroys me
and then he went to an improved version of that
that's not including p2
hollow shell
Let's not talk about DoG resprites
heady storm
Yeah try to avoid bashing sprites please, people spend time making them.
hollow shell
SSV sugg is good if we think it's far enough from the removed features don't
heady storm
Is it far enough? Honestly I’m a fan of such idea.
west gale
can i ask about the progress of old suggestions? or do i just have to be patient and wait like a good boy
tawny garden
be patient, ye
hollow shell
the 'progress', like how much devs are working on them?
tawny garden
SSV sugg is good if we think it's far enough from the removed features don't
it's a rework, not a removal
west gale
yeah
hollow shell
That's arguable.
Yeah Mason there's nothing concrete on that, so, you'll just have to wait and hope it shows up in #changelogs or in-game
tawny garden
a lot of suggs with a 👍 just get stuck
weak field
yeah, wait like a good boi
west gale
darn
tawny garden
I have 5 suggs that were approved by the devs, but neither of them were implemented
west gale
they do get quite a few suggestions so they have my sympathy
dull wren
Whom’s?
tawny garden
the top one
dull wren
Ah
hollow shell
Nah, I'm gonna keep it around
tawny garden
(read #suggestions-posting, please)
hollow shell
to see if the bot ever updates
and gets rid of it
It could just be a really slow refresh rate, but if it never deletes it then that's a bug that Amber's gotta fix
ashen warren
10 moar stars are needed for my epic suggestion to make it in.
tawny garden
don't
ashen warren
It must make it .
hollow shell
Don't bring up your sugg's star count
(this is said in the pins)
tawny garden
-Please do not advertise your suggestion
ashen warren
Yessirs.
gaunt parrot
Should the dark spark have its nerfs partially reverted? As in, its stronger than it is now but still NOWHERE near as strong as it was pre-nerf.
Reason being is that it's damage is pretty unreliable even with max charge and the fact that you have to hit every beam to get decent amounts of damage
In fact, based on dps tests, the dark spark was almost bottom of the barrel among all weapons of the same tier
Additionally, the dark spark is really expensive to craft, requiring 20 ruinous souls and 10 dark plasma to build
Maybe the devs should also reduce its crafting costs at the VERY LEAST to justify its weakness
hollow shell
If you can provide some DPS and kill time info, with relation to other weapons on the same tier, then you could make a suggestion with those as evidence yeah
hollow shell
You can post your sugg here or in #suggestions-posting first
Preferably the latter just to cut out the middle-man
heady storm
I thought it was better to take it here first though?
violet dagger
i think its best to put the general idea of the sugg you want here before so you can know beforehand if something won't work about it in posting
alright i like the dps tests of this sugg
gaunt parrot
Well I already put in
gaunt parrot
Honestly I think this is convincing enough
But maybe I'd do buffed calamitas since that's a decent benchmark for all weapons on its tier
Or doggo
foggy plover
Dark spark is really good for dog
gaunt parrot
If i can kill it that is. However, I'd have to go auric tesla armor this to make it safe AND reliable testing
How about 1st phase only?
No potion buffs either
Considering I didn't use potion buffs to test the dps values
foggy plover
the dps values wont matter, you are using infinite pierce on a worm its gonna work a lot better than the other stuff compared to a dummy
gaunt parrot
I might edit it, since I just tried the dark spark against DoG. It isn't all that special frankly and I will say that in my edited post.
ashen warren
thats not the answer
tawny garden
you gotta have the reason on a separate line
and elaborate more
((also that was a joke, as indicated by strikethrough))
wooden wedge
what even is this sugg?
sleek turret
idk
wooden wedge
well they haven't been pinged yet,,,,
tawny garden
well they saw my msg
indigo fog
can't you use worldgen previewer to skip arsenal worldgen?
wooden wedge
you can use it to skip any worldgen iirc
tawny garden
you gotta have the reason on a separate line
ashen warren
how tf do i make a separate line
wooden wedge
shift + enter
tawny garden
shift+enter
ashen warren
there
sleek turret
you can use the bold and cursive text options.
(** on bold, * on cursive)
tawny garden
that's not needed
ashen warren
done
sleek turret
but helps when reading the text
balmy jay
I feel like plaguenades need a less harsh crafting recipe
It requires a ridiculous amount of grinding to make a full stack, even with alch NPC and luiafk
left wigeon
Has it already been suggested for stealth to build up immediately instead of a small second delay? It came to my head and thought it might be good
left wigeon
Alright
golden narwhal
This kinda removes the downside of rogue then, being you can wait for a bit to power up your attack
not really a downside since you can just choose not to but eh
left wigeon
I felt stealth strikes were barely used for bosses since you couldn't slow your movement, so with an immediate buildup, it'd be easier to incorporate them with your choice without it being obviously not viable. Especially the really fast fights in post moonlord
whole sedge
isn't it supposed to not be viable
tawny garden
golden narwhal
If it built up immediately, it wouldn't be special and would only be useless if you mindlessly spammed
left wigeon
I may have not used stealth to its full potential but I guess I never seemed to make it work. The time lost building it instead of attacking doesn't match in the damage I could have done
golden narwhal
Why the current system isn't great
left wigeon
It's special to an extent I would say, the strikes performed deal pretty good damage high above regular attacking.
I know it's probably been complained about in the past so I figured that mechanic change could be a start
golden narwhal
It could help in some situations, tho one of the first things that pop into my head is slow rogue weapons, where the stealth strike would essentially act like a primary attack
craggy stratus
doesnt 1 second delay reinforce the idea of stealth, when the player starts to become, stealthy
not even 1 second, about 0.3 second
left wigeon
It does and that's probably why it's there. Though, with accessories reinforcing the idea of stealth giving it abilities and such, I thought it might need a more immediate buildup since the period in between attacks usually is pretty small for bosses that you need to keep damage on
golden narwhal
Hol up
craggy stratus
it is pretty immediate if you have good modifier on accessories
golden narwhal
By 'buildup after a attack' do you mean after each attack or after a period of attacking did I word that right
craggy stratus
pre HM kinda sucks for stealth strike
left wigeon
Like when you attack with a rogue weapon and there's a little small period that it isn't building
Maybe not available preHM but more of a late accessory that makes it an immediate buildup at least
Since earlier bosses are slower and allow you to
golden narwhal
Ok, uh, example: cosmic kunai
Would it charge up after each throw or a bit after you stop attacking, because the former would be, well ...
left wigeon
I mean to begin building up
Like slower when moving or faster when standing still but it starts immediately and, well obviously still gets consumed
golden narwhal
Ok, think I got it
left wigeon
So yeah if you kept on spamming you wouldn't get stealth benefit but, if you choose to actually just let go of the mouse it starts immediately without an interval
I might edit my suggestion to be slightly more specific actually
golden narwhal
Yea, personally feel that'd be coming from some sort of acc since it gets rid of the 'charging up' function (and makes the stealth meter obsolete)
left wigeon
Yeah a late accessory, post-moonlord probably
Just to make stealth useable for the boss fights
golden narwhal
Yea, that sounds less op
left wigeon
golden narwhal
balmy jay
I feel like ravager's homing nukes should explode on contact with you
Instead of just passing through you
Well, by that I mean passing through and dealing contact damage
Since most other explosive attacks in the game explode on contact
So it's bizarre how ravager is an exception
golden narwhal
Sugg it then
unique reef
yeah, the nukes are annoying as hell. They often persist like 30 seconds after Ravager is dead, and it's aggravating
left wigeon
I found that awkward tbh
unique reef
glad the stupid stone walls are breakable now
golden narwhal
Would this veer too far into modifying vanilla stuff?
earnest vine
sand umbra
Calamity isn't big on modifying vanilla stuff past like. numbers
and sometimes debuffs
Pearlwood Bow is an outlier shush
balmy jay
What do I do when I have multiple suggestions for the same topic
Make them separately?
balmy jay
Since I have 2 suggestions in regards to Ravager's homing nukes:
- Make them explode on contact with you
- Add some kind of visual indicator to the sprite when they are about to explode when expiring
Really, the latter one is more important IMO
Since it adds an unpredictable nature to the fight, of the bad kind
The unpredictability of the phase 2 stomps is good, but suddenly having a nuke you thought you dodged explode randomly is not
golden narwhal
(Unpredictability of stomps?)
balmy jay
The time ravager spends in the air before he stomps seems random
Forcing you to react on the spot
Which is fine since there's still a clear tell for when he's going to stomp
sinful steeple
Don't the nukes slow down before exploding?
golden narwhal
He either spends a short time or lingers for a while (former is timed, latter unsure), byea
balmy jay
If they do, I feel silly for not noticing
But the first idea about them exploding in contact with you still stands
Since, you know, they're missiles
unkempt bolt
ravager stomps work similarly to mimics iirc
where he'll descend much faster if you're on the same x axis as him
assuming you're below obv
sterile arch
changing the crimson rod to do summoner damage is a bad idea because it's not a sentry really, it sits there and has to manually moved by the player to effectively damage enemies only underneath it, other sentries have targeting functions and capabilities, it'd be like saying a magic weapon should be summoning because it's projectile lingers in the air for a little while doing damage. It also would make the great secondary damage the nimbus rod and crimson rod have on enemies when you're playing any class null because of summon damage penalties
unkempt bolt
i mean spikecrag staff is just
upside down nimbus
and yeah obviously moving it to summoner would mean other classes can't use it
same as moving any weapon to any class
sinful steeple
The line between a lingering projectile and a sentry is less straight than my spine
unkempt bolt
minions linger forever
to my knowledge, there's nothing else in the game that doesn't dissipate
sinful steeple
Sentries actually last only a minute apparently
sterile arch
2 minutes
unkempt bolt
nimbus lasts for one
if i had no prior knowledge of the nimbus and i had only seen it, and someone asked me whether it was a sentry or a magic weapon
i'd probably say sentry
sand umbra
Crimson and Nimbus are definitely in a wacky spot as they are currently
I won't contest that
but I will contest the concept that it is Calamity's responsibility to change them
unkempt bolt
they're much less out of place as a sentry than a magic weapon
sinful steeple
There are a lot of weapons that are hard to tell whether or not they're sentries which I mean is fair but this also makes the sugg a bit awkward because there's other weapons that work like them
sand umbra
whether they're less out of place as sentries or not, I'd hardly say it's Calamity's repsonsibility specifically to be changing them
sterile arch
it's really weird because, they'd fit as sentries, but should they be sentries? they dont react to enemies like minions do and they last half the time of all other sentries you can obtain, and at the point of the game they're at there are just better sentries
to make them a summon weapon would need a lot more changing to them than just damage type so that they aren't outclassed by other summon weapons
unkempt bolt
i mean there's like
two sentries available at that tier
and one of them is orthocera staff
so i wouldn't exactly say it'd be facing stiff competition lol
radiant meadow
you'd also have to overwrite their disappearance code in the AI
Which isn't exactly hard ig
raven moon
@cyan warren if you would like you might wanna add the nimbus rod to that as they are the same thing
dapper coral
it's a bit buggy atm, just the kinks of it
hollow shell
(I'm quite late but)
@little stag Prolly should explain the issues that fragile larva bring at the moment, in your suggestion
I'm sure many people are already aware, but it'd be good to spell out the situation for those unaware and to help convince people more
(also don't call em "bee hives", better to call them "bee larva" or "Queen Bee larva".
'Bee Hive' refers to the whole structure)
heady storm
Directly assuming those two other ones right behind are fine, how's this sugg? https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/699359022364491868/744271974787710987
tawny garden
I don't see any problems with it
cobalt pewter
God discord mobile can just commit delete fr
I can't click the link properly for 5 ducking times
heady storm
It's groove time's sugg in that case.
tawny garden
((I don't have problems with links on mobile, what's all this fuss about?))
cobalt pewter
Valid, but I'm not sure what to feel about WotA being a sentry
fleet wigeon
about the crimson rod thingy
why not add a sentry version instead of replacing it?
there's some weapons that can be rouge & melee
heady storm
They were already pinged to include Nimbus as an example, but that could also be a potential thing.
@cyan warren This. ^
ashen warren
@heady storm let me know if your exclamation gets removed again, attempted a fix + added a debug line as a safety net
ashen warren
epic, turns out discord permissions are indeed a fuck
heady storm
Yeah they are pretty epic to work with.
tawny garden
oh, I could rant about these for a long time
rigid forum
ok
cobalt pewter
rigid forum
ima delete the suggestion then
cyan warren
@raven moon and @heady storm I think every weapon that works like the crimson rod should be changed. However, I wanted to know peoples opinions on crimson rod before suggesting the others (nimbus and such) as well
robust lava
And you may also need to justify why it would be something for Calamity to change, since it could be seen as invading on Vanilla for little reason
tawny garden
@cyan warren ↑
rapid pivot
here's an idea; Death Mode lightning strikes supercharge Wulfrum drones in a radius.
Because it seems weird that a lightning strike wouldn't supercharge a robot, but a stationary pylon would.
Hell, the supercharged drones are even the same color as lightning strikes.
tawny garden
hm
cobalt pewter
You'll overload them, and worse, get them to commit boom
cobalt pewter
cyan warren
I think that the change should be made to vanilla as well. However, I have never had any luck in my attempts at communicating this idea to anyone who works on the game
It’s more likely that I’ll get results here as opposed to the base game, even though I think it should be changed In the base game as well
Also I just saw @fleet wigeon s suggestion of having a version of both of them and I do think it’s a good idea, however crimson rod drops from demon hearts, so that would mean you could get the mage version instead if the crimson version and be kinda screwed. It could work though if crimson rod was craft able
Also I’ve stated my reason previously
Hold on I’ll find them
Crimson rod acts more like a sentry than a magic weapon
radiant meadow
and what exactly defines a magic weapon?
and you also need to address crimson rod being used in the Carnage Ray recipe
(and possibly vilethorn in night's ray)
tawny garden
the only good definition for a magic weapon is "a weapon with magic damagetype"
but that isn't really helpful here
cyan warren
I mean what would you describe as a sentry? I’d say it’s something you cast out that damages enemies on its own for a bit before disappearing and having to be replaced. Crimson rod fits that description, as do some of the others
golden narwhal
I personally like support weapons in other classes where you can just place down projectiles
cyan warren
As stated previously, those should be as well. However if crimson rod can’t be changed, I won’t try to change the others
I want to see people’s opinion on crimson rod as a sentry before I go and try to make the others one as well
sand umbra
I like the concept, but I ask again
to what end is it Calamity's business to be changing this
rather than, say, a mod that focuses on vanilla changes or, God forbid, its own mod
(also you'd have to change how the clouds on each one works because currently there's a hardcap of one for Crimson and two for Nimbus, and I'm pretty sure the code for that is jammed into ItemCheck somewhere so lole)
cyan warren
As stated previously, I do think it should be a vanilla change. However, I’ve had no success previously and think I’ll have better luck here since I can be heard more easily
And yea the clouds should be changed so it’s affected by sentry bonuses
cobalt pewter
rather than, say, a mod that focuses on vanilla changes
do I need to add this change to my own mod then
sand umbra
no, the implication was that it's already in my plans
cobalt pewter
But yeah, I don't think Calamity needs to do this
sand umbra
sort of
radiant meadow
sentries generally have npc targetting
cyan warren
Of course it doesn’t need to do this
sand umbra
okay yeah it is, took me a second to remember. e
radiant meadow
crimson rod and friends does not
cobalt pewter
@sand umbra
cyan warren
What? Differences in weapons?!? In my summoner class!?!?
sand umbra
illegal
golden narwhal
that could be said about mage
cyan warren
I’m not
wooden lance
calamity summons can have a lot of differences tbh
cyan warren
But I mean crimson rod acts more like a sentry than it does a mage weapon
sand umbra
most magic guns act more like ranged weapons without ammo than mage weapons
wooden lance
crimson rod falls into the same type of mage weap that wrath of the ancients, magnet sphere and nimbus rod falls into
radiant meadow
except you never defined what a mage weapon deos
sand umbra
but nobody complains about those
magic weapons are so great because you can do basically anything with them and as long as you're not defeating the purpose of having other classes it's fine
cobalt pewter
most magic guns act more like ranged weapons without ammo than mage weapons
@sand umbra laser rifle
sand umbra
Crimson, Shaderain, and Nimbus would need sizable reworks to be workable as summon weps
of these, only one is added by Calamity and thus able to be changed easily
wooden lance
summon doesnt need sentries at those points in the game outside of nimbus rod
sand umbra
that and sentries are completely inviable until post-EoW/BoC anyway
radiant meadow
use queen spider staff of course
cobalt pewter
big brain
wooden lance
caustic croaker does work against crabulon
sand umbra
WotA has always been a little strange
distant gyro
i can also see wota actually dropping from something in the granite biome and not the dungeon
wooden lance
it would get replaced immediately by hive pod tbh
distant gyro
sand umbra
wtfrick drop sources making sense? in MY Terraria mod?
wooden lance
you'd use it against siren and levi, brcause dreadmine would be better for aureus anyway
sand umbra
unacceptable
radiant meadow
you're only saying that because of the internal names 🤫
distant gyro
tooltip also says granite energy pulse iirc 
sand umbra
byeah the flavor text literally says "Casts a granite energy pulse"
radiant meadow
they're basically irrelevant...,....
sand umbra
wtf flavor text is the most relevant thing there is
distant gyro
said someone who spam fixed stealth strike grammar errors
sand umbra
how will I live without my epic references in flavor text
cyan warren
Sentries might be not too good at that point in the game. Mage has few weapons at that point in vanilla, and crimson rod can help with that. However, I’ve had several ideas to try and counteract this, such as wand of sparking getting a version for each torch, but that’s a separate thing.
sand umbra
Wand of Sparking isn't even crafted with a torch 
cyan warren
I know
sand umbra
it's a Wooden Chest wep
tawny garden
[[Vanilla item recipes#Weapons]] 
red storm
cyan warren
Or a jungle one that inflicts poison
sand umbra
why is it actually crafted with a torch in Cal that's not how this was supposed to go
tawny garden
sand umbra
anywho giving it a variant for each torch type sounds. really wacky
especially given there'd really be no functional difference between most of them
tawny garden
ye, they'll all be equally useless
sand umbra
ok but 1.4 Sparking lowkey really good for when you're supposed to get it
cyan warren
Until you get to hardmode and craft the ichor or cursed flames variant
And yea
Which was another concept
Not in Vanilla it sounds like that’s what I said it’s not
sand umbra
/hastily scribbles down notes
yes this is definitely about the Crimson and Nimbus Rods suggestion mhm
sand umbra
Fargo summon variants don't count
weak field
Yes I know
sand umbra
more sentries mod 
cyan warren
What notes were you scribbling
sand umbra
oh, nothing, just, ah
some notes to look off of later
unreal viper
I agree with crimson rod sugg.
cyan warren
Hey I’m not a mod maker I’m a mod player. If you want ideas just ask and credit lol. Ichor/cursed flames/something for hallow/ wand of would be cool
sand umbra
don't worry about it
cobalt pewter
We do be making mods to compete against Calamity
cyan warren
Brb I’m going to continue this conversation shortly
cobalt pewter
cyan warren
Mark down your reasons
Tell me all the reasons why crimson rod shouldn’t be a sentry and when I’m back present them to me if possible.
wooden lance
i think that ground has already been covered
cobalt pewter
Pretty sure ben has echoed a good reason earlier
wooden lance
just scroll up
cobalt pewter
Those clouds don't have a native NPC targeting
weak field
They just rain down stuff
So if we're gonna make them a sentry we're gonna write extra code
And devs don't like that
sand umbra
byeah, the main thing of it is that the clouds lack a native NPC targeting functionality
and there's a hardcap to the number of clouds
both of these things would require a notable amount of work to correct
distant gyro
more extra code to adjust iframes in favor of not cucking
weak field
radiant meadow
okay but at least adjusting i frames is easy
cyan warren
They don’t need targeting, they could work exactly the same. They wouldn’t be as good as the other sentries, but that’s what you expect for an item you can get without killing anything
unique reef
yeah
cyan warren
Why do they require targeting? Is it an official thing or like a community thing? Just to veryfy
unique reef
the cloud rods don't have a targeting system at all
weak field
They have to have targeting to be a sentry
unreal viper
Uh
weak field
A sentry must have targetting, it's the code limit
unique reef
Wrath of the ancients' projectiles home, but the thing itself doesn't target
unreal viper
Lightning aura?
cyan warren
Yea lol
weak field
It targets anything and everything that comes into contact with the aura
weak field
The cloud on the other hand does not have targeting
cyan warren
Crimson rod targets anything that goes under it
unique reef
not really
it just fires projectiles down
regardless if there are enemies under it or not
cyan warren
By that logic lightning aura doesn’t target it just puts up a field regardless of if there are enemies under it or not
tawny garden
well, yes
unique reef
i'm sure it only deals the damage when enemies are in the field
in the actual DD2 game
tawny garden
and here
unreal viper
Lightning aura just makes an aura
unique reef
the Lightning Aura only uses up its energy when there are enemies in it
unreal viper
It doesn’t target anything.
unique reef
it targets things in its field
cyan warren
And crimson rod targets enemies under it
tawny garden
how..?
unique reef
it doesn't
cyan warren
Same way lightning aura targets anything in it
unique reef
it just fires projectiles straight down
unique reef
if it were to target per se, it would only shoot drops when enemies are near it
tawny garden
Lightning aura just places a field lol
yes
unique reef
i think LA does have a target system
tawny garden
the field created by Lightning aura persists at all times
weak field
Lightning aura is coded to target everything in it because it's a fucking sentry
unique reef
it only starts damaging when enemies are in the field
weak field
Crimson rod does not because it's not a sentry
Crimson rod does not target stuff because it's a projectile creating other projectile
tawny garden
it only starts damaging when enemies are in the field
the code doesn't check whether there are enemies in the field
weak field
Lightning aura target stuff because it is a projectile dealing damage
cyan warren
Does the cloud itself deal damage?
cyan warren
Oh it doesn’t check when it’s in the field
So it’s always dealing damage
Like crimson rod
cyan warren
Yes
That’s how it works
Also
Landline
Mine
Land mine also doesn’t target enemies
cyan warren
Crimson rod not being a sentry because it doesn’t target isn’t a valid reason as lightning aura and land mine are both considered sentries and neither target
short kiln
Aren't they just sentries so that they work with the crossover stuff
weak field
And crossover stuff bad :/
cyan warren
Yes
wooden lance
ballista rod would like to know your location
weak field
Crossover stuff ugh, none of them is good beside aerial ban
wooden lance
weak field
And maybe ballista rod
short kiln
Change lightning aura and landmine into mage weapons 
wooden lance
ballista rod is very strong for sommoner
cyan warren
Did you forget ballista rod is one of the best pvp items in the game
weak field
Aerial ban is pretty good in vanilla
wooden lance
uh
weak field
Huh? sentries and summons don't target players
wooden lance
no
cobalt pewter
Not really
wooden lance
summoner interacts with ooa once
cyan warren
300 contact damage
cobalt pewter
OOA is as dumb as it can be
cyan warren
Can be placed on any block
weak field
You're better off with rainbow crystal staff
cyan warren
Infinite range
cobalt pewter
And players don't need to even bother for them
weak field
For pvp
wooden lance
youre talking about rainbow crystal staff
cyan warren
I mean terraria isn’t a pvp game regardless
weak field
Rainbow crystal staff, more like only viable pvp summoner staff
wooden lance
yes
weak field
It's devastating if used right though
cyan warren
But like even with wings as soon as you land that’s 600 instant damage for a double spam click
weak field
150 damage, placed anywhere almost instantly
unreal viper
Is this relevant?
cyan warren
The ballista rod deals contact damage
weak field
No?
cyan warren
It’s really not actually
unreal viper
Cool
cyan warren
We were talking about crimson rod
Anyways
Any other reasons why
Aside from it not targeting since we’ve established that’s invalid
wooden lance
someone said that ooa sentries werent relevant, and i cant tolorate incorrect opinions on the internet
cyan warren
Yea saying they aren’t relevant is pretty not smart
wooden lance
(then again ballista rod is literally the only ooa sentry thats good)
cyan warren
Considering it’s where 90% of the summons are
weak field
Lightning aura was good before the nerf
cyan warren
And flameburst has aoe
wooden lance
youre talking vanilla
weak field
Until some dumbass decides to nerf it to not damage dungeon guardian
wooden lance
in calamity, most of that doesnt matter
cyan warren
Yea
wooden lance
so you end up with ballista rod being literally the only ooa sentry worth using
weak field
OOA weapons (not summons) are uh, pretty bad
wooden lance
because orthocera shell and hive pod exits
wooden lance
brand of the inferno is 50000000 iq
cyan warren
Yea
wooden lance
scarlet devil be doing infinite damage
weak field
Phoenix bow thing is ugh, the most pathetic phoenix I've seen in video games
cyan warren
So it’s awesome in calamity
weak field
Tome of infinite cheese is good against destroyer and only destroyer
wooden lance
poseidon exists
radiant meadow
are we discussing suggs or shitting on ooa?
weak field
idk
wooden lance
yes
radiant meadow
I recommend the former
cyan warren
Suggestions
weak field
Oh ok
cyan warren
Yes Sir
wooden lance
how bout both
cobalt pewter
are we discussing suggs or shitting on ooa?
@radiant meadow I'd love to spend the night doing the latter
But yes, let's focus on suggs
cyan warren
We can discuss the old ones army later
For now
Are there any other reasons why you think crimson rod isn’t a sentry?
Or shouldn’t be
radiant meadow
you still haven't addressed what makes a mage weapon and why crimson rod doesn't fit the bill
and you also still haven't addressed what to do with carnage ray recipe
unreal viper
Put the bloodbath or something in it.
cyan warren
Yea bloodbath would work
And mage weapons are weird when it comes to classification however mage weapons don’t really shoot out something that does damage on its own for a minute and then disappears later. That’s what sentries do
The entire idea also coincides with the pink slime armor which is another discussion
weak field
Sentries don't disappear
tawny garden
they do
radiant meadow
pink slime armor?