i think this is the forum post for it? https://forums.terraria.org/index.php?threads/calamity-rogue-improvements.86868/
#suggestions-discussion
dapper coral
hearty yew
the inherent problem here is that we already have several weapons whose stealth strikes are too strong and had to be specifically nerfed multiple times
anyway
if the author is here or anyone finds the author, @ or DM me. I've already rewritten stealth twice, if it still sucks I need to know how to fix it because clearly I failed the first two times.
hollow shell
Two most major features from the forum post, and yeah they're kind problems that have existed since Stealth's convention
- "Stealth regeneration doesn't depend on whether you are walking or standing so you are free to move as fast as you want and still able to do stealth strikes."
- "Stealth dodge: in full stealth you are invulnerable to first projectile or enemy contact (also works immediately after stealth strike). The dodge reveals you from stealth. This is a compensation to not working agro mechanic which doesn't really do any noticeable effect in the original mod."
- You can't stand still in boss fights.
- Aggro does nothing.
distant gyro
also holy crap that mod sounds broken
you can get stealth to build up hard enough to the point of 1 dodge per second
hollow shell
That is, if you're not attacking
which is still really OP
basically makes you into the Ghost Sniper tank from Bubble Tanks 2
eh? anyone?
distant gyro
hollow shell
I had the Decoy idea suggestion a while back to potentially fix both of those issues
but, it was thrown out. Too hard to code.
hearty yew
so yes it's ridiculously broken
alright
ignoring that dodge thing entirely
that's WHY we added the mirror line
anyway, yes, sure, I can just unify stealth regeneration so movement speed doesn't matter at all
I'll throw out all my careful math on the subject
Clearly nobody noticed that dark gods makes you regenerate stealth at the same speed while moving after waiting only forty frames
😒
hollow shell
(Brought this up when I delivered Decoys. DGS is 2/3 of the way through the game.)
hearty yew
I specifically made that accessory do that because post ML I don't expect anyone to ever stand still ever
People still won't be satisfied even if I make it full speed while moving
earnest vine
I feel like stealth is one of those great ideas for a mechanic, but that is just really hard to implement correctly and you seem to never get it right
hearty yew
pretty sure at least
I bet I could not even list it on the changelog and people wouldn't notice
Because nobody's actually patient enough to wait for the meter to fill
Why are you playing rogue if you have an itchy trigger finger anyway
Actually this would be the perfect opportunity to allow super charging stealth while standing still, so if you do bother to stand still the strikes are significantly more powerful
distant gyro
throwing done right is kinda impossible ngl
hollow shell
Well stealth isn't inherent to throwing
distant gyro
any mechanic added seem to be a mistake and if there are no mechanics at all it's immediately uninteresting
see: exhaustion and techniques from thorium
hearty yew
and ya wonder why relogic canned it
hollow shell
We could have easily just not done stealth and throwing would be identical to any other class. There'd be less headaches but it would make some people sad
earnest vine
I think its possible but the solution is to be creative and find an interesting solution to the problem, otherwise its hard to get it right imo
heady lichen
I'd say maybe stealth upgrades with progression?
hollow shell
That does happen. Items buff it, reducing recharge rate and whatnot
heady lichen
Like permanent consumables dropped by bosses
distant gyro
i think they meant consumables
hollow shell
What would that solve
heady lichen
like adrenaline and rage
hollow shell
You're already going to be wearing the Rogue accessories anyway
heady lichen
it would make it viable lategame while not breaking it earlygame
earnest vine
im gonna think about this for a while. maybe I can come up with something ¯_(ツ)_/¯
heady lichen
The problem with lategame stealth is that bosses simply don't let you stay still for 3 seconds
so having a consumable that makes stealth charge faster while moving wouldn't be bad
hollow shell
(That's why Dark God's Sheath reduces the time to less than 1 second, as Ozz mentioned earlier)
(You get that accessory before Moon Lord)
sand umbra
that's a problem early-game too though--
heady lichen
and in that time yharon would've already taken half your life points
hollow shell
Okay you're exaggerating now
heady lichen
maybe I am, I don't know
I just feel like stealth is impossible to work with post ML
hollow shell
Never played Rogue?
violet spire
i cant say ive played around with it much but im not a fan of the idea of a mechanic being based on standing still in fights that are so focused on constantly moving and dodging
heady lichen
the risk is standing still for a second
the reward is having the exact same dps as spamming
give or take 20%
I really tried to make a full stealth rogue work
But bosses past providence just kinda say no to that
Maybe DoG gives you a bit of time
but that's where it ends
earnest vine
hmm. maybe there could be a penalty to spamming, I know this may be a bit of a crazy idea but perhaps stealth could be normally at the middle, (with value 0) and if you stay still and dont shoot, it will increase and work just like normal stealth, but if you are spamming (or holding) it goes down to negative values, that reduce DPS.
sand umbra
yeah
distant gyro
Thomas, that sounds like a tired man's opinion 
heady lichen
rule numero uno of game design
don't make players just feel bad
reward them for playing well
don't just punish them for playing like anyone else would
dry latch
implement a graze mechanic
heady lichen
the problem is
the time to stand still is non-existent
stand still for a moment and yharons on your ass, or scals projectiles already killed you
earnest vine
then maybe standing still isnt the solution.
heady lichen
and moving to slowly charge stealth is just a straight nerf to dps
distant gyro
at the endish point in the game moving gives more stealth than standing
heady lichen
fair enough, but the reward isn't too high
distant gyro
hearty yew
skill can't give you a meaningful advantage in damage output
that's the kicker -- not that the risk is bad, but the reward can't be good
hollow shell
(The more I hear about these extensive complaints on Terraria & Calamity game design and content, it just makes me wish this was Hollow Knight instead. I bring it up a lot because god it is a much tighter and better thought out gameplay experience.
Almost makes you forget that Terraria is also supposed to be a building sandbox game and maybe we shouldn't be focusing this hard on combat?)
hearty yew
calamity's game design simply doesn't allow it.
heady lichen
the thing is calamity is a mod built for combat
pale glacier
LMFAOOOO
heady lichen
or moreso built for combat
sand umbra
Calamity's combat is its foundation, its bosses its bread and butter
heady lichen
building is mainly just something you do to show off, or postgame
sand umbra
if you take that away it has virtually nothing upon which to stand
pale glacier
what Thomas said
heady lichen
yep
hearty yew
the way we have it set up is that stealth strikes cannot ever be broken, i.e. worth using. The risk is always paid off with... You guessed it, appropriate on tier DPS.
Aka nothing. You might as well play ranger.
heady lichen
^
hearty yew
heady lichen
Stealth definetely needs a rework
hearty yew
No, it really fucking doesn't
heady lichen
right now it's just something to use when clearing huge mob clusters
hearty yew
That's my point
hearty yew
You have the problem description
Which is: Rules of the game dictate that stealth cannot be satisfying
How do I fix that
hollow shell
We've been nerfing stealth strikes but maybe they were fine being OP, is the thing?
hearty yew
Yes
ANY stealth strike that's actually worth it, gets blasted instantly
Can confirm, it's happened in testing a lot recently
OD drops viable on yharon? Sent straight to hell
hollow shell
You wanna bring this up to the testers?
distant gyro
if something has too much dps it instantly gets blasted
hearty yew
I can't change the rules of balance
distant gyro
we know this
hollow shell
I think you can
hearty yew
The problem isn't that "stealth sucks" -- the problem is that it's not only engineered to suck, it's required to suck.
dry latch
maybe we should balance rogue dps using stealth strikes instead of not using stealth strikes. kinda like how ranger is balanced using optimal ammo
hearty yew
Gotta go to the root cause
heady lichen
huh
vocal grotto
I feel like testing in general is kind of a "is this OK for the boss" instead of "is the performance of this thing good relative to the difficulty required to get it" at times
hearty yew
bud that's always what testing is
Testing has nothing to do with the items or with player satisfaction
The overall mission of calamity testing efforts is "zero overpowered options exist for any boss"
distant gyro
the peak of the shithole is that not every stealth strike is made equally
dry latch
so not using stealth strikes would be akin to using the unlimited ammo pouches
foggy plover
wai are we
distant gyro
so if you math it out you have to do it for every. single. weapon.
foggy plover
not supposed to go off player satisfaction?
distant gyro
which is the snippet up there with throwing bricks dps
pale glacier
shortswords
heady lichen
lmao imagine shortsword
distant gyro
which takes 2 minutes each to calculate at a surface level, imagine
earnest vine
Maybe. just maybe, stealth could change other stats of the weapons. not damage or crit chance, but rather speed, velocity, fire rate, affected by how much stealth you have
hearty yew
oh btw it doesn't actually change crit chance
hollow shell
How would that help (speed and fire rate), stealth is consumed on use
robust lava
But then no one would care about Stealth because all they care about is dps
hearty yew
had to write a custom workaround for it, coming next version
heady lichen
nice
hearty yew
yeah it drove fab and I crazy when we found it
heady lichen
but honestly stealth should just be more rewarding
to actually give you more dps than spam
hearty yew
fun fact holding a high crit chance weapon makes all other stuff crit. This is why summons couldn't crit until 1.4.
Fun fact #2: this behavior still isn't fixed in 1.4
heady lichen
instead of just "oh, I almost got hit by yharon, but at least I did less than average dps"
hearty yew
they just gave summons a separate crit meter to bypass the issue
We fixed it in 10 minutes
dry latch
oh right fab mentioned that. it's like that borderlands 2 bug
hearty yew
yes
exactly
Anyway sock it's theoretically possible to spend hundreds of hours of development making all stealth strikes fun and testing them over and over and over to fine tune their damage output to be worth the risk
Theoretically
But I still think it's not worth it because stealth is fundamentally fucked
heady lichen
that's what I was saying about a rework
hearty yew
You know why it took forever for certain rogue weapons to get stealth strikes, because those weapons fucking suck and nobody cares about them
earnest vine
yeah like I said before. its one of those great ideas that just dont work with the game.
hearty yew
Yet we can't just remove them
heady lichen
Let me think
hearty yew
We were trapped slaving away at adding dozens of stealth strikes nobody would ever, ever use
hollow shell
(Did someone said, removing weapons?)
unreal viper
Why not remove weps?
hearty yew
(Take a wild guess who said it, the same person who always does)
idk, give me some reasons
take some guesses you'll probably get it right
heady lichen
Tbh I'm not the smartest but I'll see if I can think of anything new, as cocky as that sounds
hollow shell
at the risk of sounding inflammatory and insensitive:
"muh options"?
unreal viper
Cause spriting hard.
hearty yew
Nope, not that one
hearty yew
the other one is mostly "baby rage from the community"
hearty yew
We removed like, two swords once
heady lichen
easy enough for you to say @unreal viper
robust lava
Most likely baby rage from the vocal minority
hearty yew
^
heady lichen
Every weapon has a fan
hearty yew
As it always is
hollow shell
(correction, we have only ever removed 1 sword)
frail mantle
it's like when Astrageldon was removed
frail mantle
people only cared about it after it was gone
sand umbra
Heart Rapier is dying
hearty yew
yes
robust lava
People complain about Calamity having too many bosses that are similar to vanilla, but complained when a slime boss was replaced with a unique one
hearty yew
`github: 1 new commit to HEART_RAPIER_FUCKING_DIES
HEART RAPIER FUCKING DIES`
sand umbra
heady lichen
glorious
earnest vine
lol
unreal viper
How am I supposed to cheese biome mimics now?
wooden wedge
use any other weapon
sand umbra
with any of the 500 other options viable for doing so
hollow shell
I would have mad respect for Fab if we removed a bunch of fucking one-off weapons that nobody uses
unreal viper
ye
sand umbra
examples pls?
unreal viper
And if you removed reaver armor.
hollow shell
Ancient Crusher (Evil Smasher), Crystal Blade, Holiday Halberd, Fulguration Halberd
unreal viper
I hate reaver.
hollow shell
all melee weapons
sand umbra
thanos snap half the swords in the mod out of existence
pale glacier
All true melee weapons*
heady lichen
I was thinking @hearty yew maybe stealth could be reworked into something that interacts with dashes and maybe consistent hits? idk just throwing shit out there stealth is hard to implement in these sortsa games
heady lichen
god that suggestion sounds dumb
hearty yew
actually
ACTUALLY
IT'S REALLY NOT
though it sounds silly
making players have to constantly dash like an idiot to get stealth bonuses would be interesting
heady lichen
holy fuck
unreal viper
Hmm.
heady lichen
I did a smart
earnest vine
lol
wooden wedge
stealth dies at scal
dry latch
then people will complain about not being able to dash at scal
sand umbra
something I was entertaining a long time ago was rogue stealth except it worked like Vortex stealth
and then I stopped doing that for a variety of reasons, the main one being that I was not prepared to account for everything
hearty yew
I don't really want to mandate equipping a dash accessory though.
heady lichen
Maybe give rogue armor a mini-dash?
unreal viper
I remember on the thorium server, there was an idea about a ninja clash focusing on dashing through enemeis for i-frames.
heady lichen
When no other dashes are equipped
hearty yew
maybe do the opposite of standing still.
unreal viper
Ye.
hearty yew
stealth scales with moving.
heady lichen
That would be amazing
earnest vine
yeah
heady lichen
Moving is fun
heady lichen
i did a good
sand umbra
tax evasion
earnest vine
buuut not scale with speed
unreal viper
That sounds hella cool.
heady lichen
tbh that sounds incredible
earnest vine
yeah
unreal viper
Inner tube stealth.
heady lichen
moving is a lot more fun than standing still and praying
dry latch
burden breaker
hearty yew
no it does scale with movement speed. up to a cap, gan
heady lichen
burden breaker doesn't work in bosses
unreal viper
I think if people really prep that mjuch.
earnest vine
I knew someone could come up with something
unreal viper
And manage to land a hit.
hearty yew
the movement speed cap scales up with your armor
heady lichen
Holy hell it's all coming together
unreal viper
Yes!
hearty yew
anyway the point here is that we stop fucking with reducing stealth regen rate and this and that, you always get stealth at a constant rate while not attacking, but moving fast makes stealth regenerate even faster, and standing still ramps up the damage bonus
pale glacier
dry latch
so would rogue get speed bonuses or just evasion regen bonuses?
hearty yew
If you want the full bonus you gotta stop and aim
heady lichen
pale glacier
Its happening
sand umbra
I am 100% down for this
dry latch
those two gloves would finally make sense
hearty yew
This will probably require nerfing stealth's current damage ramping
heady lichen
YES I DID AN ACTUAL SMART THING
hearty yew
But it would be compensated for by the damage boost from bothering to stand still to shoot
You don't have to be still for long, just long enough to aim for 0.2 seconds and throw
And you also don't even have to do that. It just helps a lot
hollow shell
I don't have much hope that this will work out, like every single other stealth rework idea, but I'll trust you Ozz
dry latch
maybe crit damage from standing still, to imitate focusing on aiming
earnest vine
^ yeah
unreal viper
What's the issue with reworks?
hollow shell
They never happened.
hearty yew
Uh, what do you mean
I definitely redid the way stealth worked to stop eclipse mirror spam
That was a rework. I had to very carefully redo DGS and EM
hollow shell
Fair enough, but people are still complaining about stealth
robust lava
What form would stealth strikes take in this system? Would they have to be nerfed?
hearty yew
no they'd all do exactly the same shit
not worth redoing those, nobody wants to touch them
robust lava
Fair enough
hollow shell
I'll see how this goes, maybe it will be fine
(But I won't get hyped)
heady lichen
hearty yew
hype is the primary ingredient of disappointment
but really, this does sound better than what we have now
earnest vine
even if people still complain, its still an improvement
robust lava
As you said, it's worth giving it a try
hearty yew
a mechanical improvement that offers gameplay depth is worth it even if everyone complains and says it didn't help
oh here's another thing to note. nobody likes partial stealth strikes, so I could probably just remove those entirely.
dry latch
thank you for the hard work as always. it might not be much, but I appreciate all you guys do
hearty yew
I'd take a vote on that if I knew how
hollow shell
Funny you should say that
sand umbra
I mean...
hollow shell
hearty yew
"are partial stealth strikes worth it"
is a very different vote
basically, you know how rogue damage ramps up as stealth builds so you can slap things with a slightly stronger attack with partially filled stealth
I don't think anyone gives a crap about that
I think people would much rather be able to partially charge stealth and then go back to attacking
Though I'd like that to be put up to a strawpoll or similar
I don't want to assume what people want. I don't play rogue. I've played every other class but rogue, but never rogue
hollow shell
Partial stealth strikes pretty much only happen accidentally and I tried to avoid them, because the full stealth boosts are noticeably higher than even 99% partial
in my experience.
hearty yew
yeah they're basically a punishment
which is not what anyone wants
any system that annoys the player for playing normally is probably bad
which includes this
if you say "oh fuck gotta move and go back to attacking again" or you happen to click at the wrong time, you shouldn't lose everything
maybe I should rename stealth to focus
hearty yew
I was considering evasion but that's when it scaled with movement speed or provided defensive bonuses, both of which are likely a very bad idea
foggy plover
imma be honest, I kind of dont understand the "cant reward the player for playing better" when a good amount of glass cannon gear exists already in calam (as well as like, drat and polaris parrotfish)
hearty yew
because the only thing you're allowed to be rewarded for is dodging
I think that's the only thing that can be consistently put on a sliding scale of performance vs risk and we explicitly ignore it in all testing, apparently it's deemed acceptable for it to be overpowered
In this case I'd prefer stealth was a more widely accessible mechanic because everyone who plays the class is going to want to use it
tawny garden
the only thing you're allowed to be rewarded for is dodging
This isn't relevant here rn, but
Rage rewards you for dodging into projectiles/enemies
hollow shell
(And everybody hates rage because it doesn't reward you enough for doing that
because the rewards for dodging are far greater)
(such as not dying)
(... and Adrenaline)
robust lava
I think of Rage more like "Aw I got hit, but at least I'm getting Rage from it" rather than "I'm going to get hit to build Rage", especially since Adrenaline is better
sand umbra
Adrenalne 
tawny garden
no, Rage is more like "that bar at the top is annoying, how do I hide it"
sand umbra
the mechanic that rewards you more than you need to be for playing the way the game is meant to be played
robust lava
Terraria isn't meant to be played no hit, nor is Calamity
sand umbra
you say that but you have no idea how hard Calamity encourages a glass cannon lifestyle
Calamity is not Terraria
heady lichen
coughs in dimensional soul artifact and reaper tooth necklace
sand umbra
doesn't matter if it's a mod or not, the way it's supposed to be played is immensely different from the way Terraria is meant to be played
heady lichen
Calamity is very much so built for glass cannons and no hit
sand umbra
Calamity has multiple accs and an entire mechanic designed to reward dodging
robust lava
Calamity definitely gives you strong benefits to a no hit playstyle
sand umbra
tanking isn't viable. it just isn't
robust lava
I'm not saying you should be taking 20 hits per fight, just a few here and there
hollow shell
I'd like to see an item that is the literal opposite of RTN
Double defense but halved damage
along those lines
sand umbra
and I'm saying that taking like 3 or 4 hits in a fight is just
death
and Rover, I'd love an item like that too
just the polar opposite of RTN
but like it'll never happen
robust lava
But because dealing damage is fun, no one would use it
sand umbra
no, that's not why
hollow shell
I don't think people would be opposed to at least trying the safe option if a boss is giving them a lot of shit
sand umbra
the reason why is because, iirc, Fab does not like facetanking at all
sand umbra
except defensive options in Cal tend to be nerfed like hell
hollow shell
How about doubling your defense and fucking thirding your damage
sand umbra
because we can't have the player taking a reasonable amount of damage per hit
that's illegal
hollow shell
Yeah you'll just die
foggy plover
it is 100% viable
sand umbra
except no other tanking is
foggy plover
yup pretty much
heady lichen
lmao true melee has joined the chat
hollow shell
(define "facetanking")
(cuz I can't imagine being in a DPS contest with any boss and winning)
sand umbra
the only defensive setup that matters is the one where it's all you have so you take like no damage and it takes fifteen Fargo years to do the boss fight
robust lava
Camper playthrough
foggy plover
ye basically
sand umbra
literally the whole goddamn gimmick of Camper is encouraging this sort of defensive setup
hollow shell
That's facetanking?
I thought it was just flying into the enemy swinging your sword without caring about getting hit
hollow shell
Okay cool thanks for the earlier definition
sand umbra
no, that's called trying to tank and then remembering that reasonable facetank loadouts aren't viable
unreal viper
Camper is kinda bad for facetanking.
foggy plover
camper is godly for facetanking
sand umbra
if you're taking more than one (1) damage from anything you're doing it wrong
foggy plover
because regen is fuckin stupid
and doesnt cap off if you are standing still apparently
sand umbra
exaggeration to prove a point
foggy plover
tho I think that is getting changed
sand umbra
if you invest all your stuff into defensive stats, you're gonna have regen out the ass
so you can take small damage and just outheal it
foggy plover
ye basically, with that already being viable adding an accessory to make it like 1.5x more effective with doubled defense would be
insane
sand umbra
this is effectively why the logical extreme tank loadout is viable, but a normal tank loadout is not
because a normal tank loadout doesn't have the tools to outheal the damage it takes
especially late-game where the damage you take is perpetually in the hundreds
foggy plover
unless you use like
golden proboscis
or something with a lot of lifesteal like that
sand umbra
the only class that can viably tank is melee
sand umbra
except melee doesn't need to because melee isn't in the Calamity dictionary
melee in the Calamity dictionary is just a ranged class that somehow takes even fewer IQ points than the -2 IQ points that Ranger requires
except for when it's still a melee class we swear guys it's worth getting up close
unreal viper
It is sometimes.
sand umbra
(read: it's not, you will die trying to play Berserker as it would be played anywhere else)
steep crown
Yeah, Melee is just Ranged, but you can maybe hit stuff close to you
Vanilla kinda has this problem towards the endgame, but Calamity just takes it up to 11
sand umbra
I won't deny it's a problem rooted in late-game vanilla, of course
but Calamity takes this issue and spikes it tenfold because now it's everywhere and on everything
unreal viper
The thing is, the only way to make melee work is designing the bosses to work with it.
True melee works for pre Hardmode vanilla bosses.
Cause they’re designed with it in mind.
steep crown
Post-Mechs it basically just turns into Bagnad or nothing
sand umbra
melee meant somethin' back in the day
unreal viper
Like the bee spawning phase, skeletrons headspin.
weak field
And then there's scal who is literally almost impossible with true melee
hollow shell
Alright I think the conversation has been devolving for a while.
Somebody formulate a suggestion out of one of these several topics (except stealth cuz we already got two of those) or save your opinions for another time
sand umbra
ah
this has been a. rather long conversation
my apologies
someday I'll be able to not go on hour-long tangents about these topics that I feel strongly about.
someday.
there is one thing I've been considering pitching which stems from something I'm doing
and which is actually fairly relevant to the conversation, all things considered
lemme draft up a way to explain this that doesn't take 55 years
hollow shell
We got "Add an item (or items) which are the opposite of Reaper Tooth Necklace; boosted defense and cut damage"
or "Remove some sword projectiles or make them more noticeably weaker than True melee"
or uhh, other stuff
sand umbra
I've got something a bit more impactful in mind, actually
hollow shell
aight
hollow shell
Turn them all into "Separate" DR?
sand umbra
more or less, yeah
hollow shell
Question
Mathematically
would this not result in a very similar effect to the current diminishing returns system?
sand umbra
well yes but actually no
wooden wedge
multiplication is less confusing than the current system,,,
hollow shell
if you have 10% DR and then get another 10% DR
That second one is only 9% DR
sand umbra
the first one isn't even 10% DR
the diminishing returns system in place currently makes it so that nothing gives the DR bonus it promises
which is straight-up misleading and can only confuse the player rather than helping them
having it all be multiplicative means it's much easier for the average player to comprehend it and it's arguably much easier to manage
mathematically speaking, it wouldn't be tremendously different, no
but it is more understandable and easier to work with for everybody involved
hollow shell
I suppose the problem then would be that 100% DR might become possible?
Lemme check
sand umbra
impossible
hollow shell
Literally impossible or do you just think it's unlikely
foggy plover
wouldnt dr softcap be kept anyways
sand umbra
the DR softcap wouldn't need to exist
because multiplicative effects still means that the total reduction of damage you get decreases the more effects you have
wooden wedge
I forget, is 100% achievable by multiplication at all or does it have to be a stupidly high number
hollow shell
So... diminishing returns
but, different
sand umbra
multiplicative DR accomplishes a similar thing as the current system in the long run, yes, but it is simpler, more understandable, and easier to manage
everybody wins
hollow shell
(The funny calculus is that the current system is what you were suggesting if every instance of DR was a cumulative collection of infinitesimals)
(iirc)
dapper coral
wait, how does diminishing returns work right now? i never really understood that
hollow shell
Your effective DR is equal to this:
sand umbra
you won't understand it unless you specifically go out of your way to research it
tawny garden
that's a don't, no?
hollow shell
Que?
tawny garden
(ah, no, it's not readding a removed feature, I'm an idiot)
sand umbra
frail mantle
sand umbra
anywho yeah uh
the current system, while certainly effective, is not easily understood by players and makes it so that nothing gives the DR it promises in its tooltip
hollow shell
And your system would at least make it so the first DR thing you equip is accurate
and only that
sand umbra
well yes but actually no
wooden wedge
and that's why you would explain ingame that the effect is multiplicative?
sand umbra
yeah. it's easy to explain a multiplicative effect in-game
the current system...not so much
wooden wedge
you learn multiplication in elementary school
sand umbra
byeah
hollow shell
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Calamity's current DR scaling system,
sand umbra
Rover please--
hollow shell
ok
tawny garden
do you?
sand umbra
(yes)
weak field
I know it exist, I know stack dr will not give you what the stats says, and that's it
wooden wedge
it's not stated ingame what the DR scaling is even, right?
sand umbra
correct
weak field
Nothing ingame said that DR scaling exist...?
tawny garden
I don't remember anything like that
hollow shell
Will this change even solve this issue: " the current system often means that any DR-increasing items don't actually give the damage reduction they claim to, which can greatly confuse newer players as to why their defensive gear doesn't feel like it's doing much."
Would an all-multiplicative system not just result in the DR you receive still conforming to the current graph curve, except in a more incremental manner?
sand umbra
simple solution:
X% increased damage reduction
becomes
Reduces damage taken by X%; this effect is multiplicative
can literally be explained in the tooltip
weak field
Or add a meter above the defense icon that tells you your current effective DR
sand umbra
you don't even need a special book or sheet or anything
it's super simple and the average player will understand it
hollow shell
to my knowledge of Calculus (which admittedly should be higher than it is)
You're asking for this:
Where each horizontal bar-graph style line is a new DR gain
and the curve is the current system
sand umbra
okay. and how pray tell is this not what I've been explaining to you for the past like 15 minutes
hollow shell
I'm specifically pointing to this line in your reason where you say the current system is confusing
"which can greatly confuse newer players as to why their defensive gear doesn't feel like it's doing much"
hollow shell
(I did, that's what I told you to hold the phone for earlier)
sand umbra
(o. I see)
hollow shell
And yeah, because this would still weaken higher DR in the same exact manner as current
sand umbra
anywho I changed it now
should I also mention the proposed change to DR tooltips?
hollow shell
Probably
sand umbra
alright, lemme slap that in there rq
dapper coral
so basically you're proposing that DR still be diminishing but in an easier way for players to understand?
sand umbra
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying
dapper coral
aight i can get behind that
hollow shell
I don't know why I am apparently as opposed to this suggestion as I am
but in some ways it's a bit more confusing, and the graph on the wiki page will still be accurate, but it will not always apply
In fact, I don't think it'll ever 100%ly accurately apply? But it's still the closest thing you can get to a general informant for what your actual DR currently is?
tawny garden
I don't think it will follow the current graph
sand umbra
how is simple multiplication expressed in-game that requires looking at your item's tooltip for about a second, probably less, to understand more confusing than a formula that requires looking at the wiki for about a minute to understand
weak field
Just add an icon above the defense counter to display your current effective DR like thorium
tawny garden
well, if you have a 10% DR and a 45% DR acc, then currently the effective DR would be ~0.354%
why the fuck can I not multiply
and with Thomas' system, you would have 0.505% effective DR with a 10% DR acc and a 45% DR acc
and actually a DR icon is something that I wanted
pale glacier
You mean 35.4 and 50.5%?
tawny garden
but the Stat Meter exists
hollow shell
In the proposed system you need to take each instance of DR applied to you into account and apply them one after another
In the current system you plug the added up DR stat numbers into that formula
My brain is imploding
tawny garden
the thing you're missing is that this ain't calculus
tawny garden
and the DR contributions aren't tending towards 0
sand umbra
no it isn't
not in the slightest
everything about the proposed multiplicative system involves stuff that you learn in elementary school
percentages of percentages is not a high-level concept
not by a long shot
tawny garden
(oh and btw, infinitesimals aren't used in modern calculus)
(they were used, but that was about 150 years ago)
hollow shell
(I know, just thought it was the simplest way to explain)
tawny garden
sand umbra
(what the fuck even is an infinitesimal. I've literally never heard this term and I took AP Calc in high school)
hollow shell
alright, yeah
If you know your current DR then the new system will make it easier to determine what the DR gain will be on the next DR you apply to yourself
sand umbra
((some research later I found it's literally just a fancy word for a Really Fucking Small™️ number))
tawny garden
((an infinitesimal is a weird idea of there being a number between 0 and the smallest real number))
((i don't like it))
hollow shell
((yeah pretty much))
clever canopy
I like the suggestion but I’m gonna take a look at the DR page to see what the highest DR possible is with each system, as I think that will greatly affect whether the devs accept it
sand umbra
((wack))
hollow shell
((that's why it got phased out, cuz it was counterintuitive))
Theoretically you could achieve 100% DR with Thomas's system if you had one item which gave you a flat 100% DR
but if you have any increment below that then it's now impossible to achieve full 100%
sand umbra
purely theoretically, yes
hollow shell
There is no "highest amount" in either system
clever canopy
With enough regen even 90% DR would be enough to facetanking anything
unreal viper
That idea for a new system seems kinda weird.
clever canopy
Not to forget invincibility frames too, which can already more than half the damage you take facetanking
unreal viper
Large amounts of dr from one acc and would also be more impactful than smaller amounts of dr from multiple sources, not by much tho.
clever canopy
There aren’t really any large DR accessories though
hollow shell
indeed, you'd get more DR out of a +20% DR boost than two +10% DR boosts, or worse, one 10% DR boost and two 5% DR boosts
unreal viper
I don’t really have any major problems with it.
tawny garden
there is the beetle armor
(if it wasn't nerfed)
sand umbra
and the few that do exist are themselves very situational
so you can either go for a bigger, more niche boost or a smaller but more applicable total boost
this is a form of nuance that doesn't exist with the current system and indeed doesn't exist in Terraria at all normally
because no DR nerf gets to the heart of the issue
all DR effects in Terraria are additive
hollow shell
Not true
sand umbra
...okay
hollow shell
There are Separate DR boosts already
sand umbra
lemme rephrase
most DR effects in Terraria are additive
there are a select few exceptions
hollow shell
(the Calamity exceptions:)
https://calamitymod.gamepedia.com/Damage_Reduction#Separate_Damage_Reduction_Boosts
clever canopy
Beetle armor is nerfed to 10% per beetle active, and they only activate after 3 seconds of not being hit so are pretty negligible for facetanking
hollow shell
Fun fact
tawny garden
I'm not melee, so me don't cares
unreal viper
Good for tanking tho.
hollow shell
Beetle DR is separate from player.endurance
unreal viper
The biggest dr boosts are generally.
Unless an acc gets dr from separate thing, like asgardian aegis.
Which gets dr from being underwater and from a buff.
zealous ridge
tanking in calamity?
lmao
its been an all or nothing deal for as long as DR has EXISTED in vanilla
hollow shell
... yeah speaking of which
This was meant to improve tanking, wasn't it?
zealous ridge
make it more consistent
not really improve it
in some ways it's a nerf
because stacking DR up the ass doesnt mean you're invincible anymore
hollow shell
(are you talking about Thomas's sugg?)
unreal viper
Uh
hollow shell
afaik the DR values can only be higher in Thomas's system than the current system
The current system is a new minimum of DR values if you happen to equip a fuckload of small DR boosts, in Thomas's system
unreal viper
Stacking dr doesn’t make you invincible already, cause scaling.
unreal viper
Very clean formula.
hollow shell
Your effective DR is equal to this formula:
(small "dr" being the DR stat you have)
zealous ridge
what
hollow shell
Is this news to you
zealous ridge
no i knew something like this was in the game
hollow shell
This is what Thomas's system is replacing
hollow shell
Your DR stat.
If you have an item which gives 10% DR, another which gives 5% DR, and another with 2% DR
that small "dr" is equal to 0.17 (aka 17%)
(and your effective DR is ~0.145, aka 14.5%)
sand umbra
welcome to Calamity DR system
zealous ridge
effective dr is what is used for calculations, no?
the dr stat is just what the number shows
sand umbra
wait what the fuck
I looked on the wiki and
https://calamitymod.gamepedia.com/Damage_Reduction#Boss_Kill_Times what is this meme
hollow shell
Binding of Isaac
zealous ridge
alright i guess i was talking on vanilla's terms
sand umbra
fuckin' Gungeon DPS cap hours up in here
hollow shell
It's false by default so dw
zealous ridge
vanilla really doesnt have these calculations
but yeah, i remember that cal had stuff like this
hollow shell
Vanilla doesn't because it doesn't have many DR sources
when you add as many as Cal does, you gotta stop 100% DR from becoming possible
(among other reasons)
sand umbra
what do you mean "false by default"
only the extra DR config is false by default
this isn't a config
tawny garden
https://calamitymod.gamepedia.com/Damage_Reduction#Boss_Kill_Times what is this meme
oh really damnit
when tf was this added?
sand umbra
this is a base mechanic that I see no way for any normal player to ever know about reasonably
when did this happen and who was responsible for it
tawny garden
I didn't even see it in the #changelogs
zealous ridge
haha yes
sand umbra
tbf I figured as such but I wanted to confirm
zealous ridge
well, i guess one thing that multiplicitive DR has over... this is that its waaay fuckin easier to understand
sand umbra
but like this is literally Gungeon's DPS cap with extra steps
zealous ridge
at least from what ive seen here
tawny garden
he's like red
adding obscure mechanics
zealous ridge
HAH
sinful steeple
Tbf dps caps exist so you can't nuke bosses but Calamity bosses are still nukable
It's only a softcap
hollow shell
(I have noticed parallels between Fabsol and Red but I would never want to say that to his face)
sand umbra
(I could probably draw said parallels but I don't want to be banned on the spot)
sinful steeple
It's illegal to say that until 1.4 tML drops and Fabsol adds his face as a cloud
sand umbra
(I have a clean slate here...somehow. I'd rather keep it that way as long as I can )
zealous ridge
i mean yall just realizing this
tawny garden
so fab if you're reading this
sinful steeple
Fabsol would probably just give you the stink eye or smth not ban you
zealous ridge
or is this just something we acknowledging now
fabsol is past banning people for dissenting opinions
hollow shell
I knew this time-based DR system existed
clever canopy
Did some maths and looking at accessories alone (I'll factor in potions in a sec) the highest DR loadout is:
Rampart of deities - 20% below 15% life
The sponge - 15% when submerged
Bloody worm scarf - 10%
Blazing core - 10%
Asgardian aegis - 10% while submerged
For the last two accessories there's a choice of hallowed rune, corrupt/crimson flasks, archaic powder or affliction, which all provide 7% in varying circumstances.
In vanilla this would be 79% DR
Under the current system this would be 44.13% DR
Under Thomas' suggestion this would equal 57.13% DR
hollow shell
Thanks Chief
tawny garden
I knew this time-based DR system existed
you have access to the dev server, come on
hollow shell
(there are plenty of things I don't know about)
sand umbra
the average player would never know it exists though
tawny garden
or did he add it without saying anything?
sand umbra
which is something I assessed with my sugg and why the sugg exists at all
sinful steeple
I mean to be fair I don't think it's a bad thing, imagine Gungeon without the dps cap
hollow shell
He did talk about it, and how he was inspired by Isaac to do it
hollow shell
Hush boss, iirc
sinful steeple
All the bosses in that game are like made of glass
Oh that one
Yeah makes sense
hollow shell
There do seem to be a ridiculous amount of factors affecting boss kill times and weapon viability now, eh...?
hollow shell
Yes
sand umbra
Terraria is very much not as luck-based, not at all
zealous ridge
Torch luck was not mentioned at all as far as i remember
hollow shell
Indeed
Gungeon/Isaac and Terraria have very different gameplay flows
tawny garden
Torch luck was not mentioned at all as far as i remember
he mentioned it in discord somewhere iirc
sand umbra
why are there so many factors trying to force equal viability for everything
why?
that's not how you give everything a purpose
hollow shell
In Isaac you can become megaballs overpowered in one run, and a weak pea-spitter in another
And you can't do anything about that within a run (aside from re-rolling some items)
sand umbra
byeah
hollow shell
In Terraria (Calamity) you have access to every item in the game in every playthrough
sand umbra
they're entirely RNG-based games
Terraria gives you a notable degree of control over what you get
zealous ridge
well its because there are some people that take making everything viable way too seriously
sand umbra
the way you make everything viable...is to let it come naturally
you don't try to force it
because then it's not genuine
and ultimately, all the measures Calamity takes don't solve the problem
hollow shell
I'm not sure what you mean by letting it come naturally
zealous ridge
well. yeah, that kind of sounds a bit woo-woo
sand umbra
er. perhaps that's not the best way to explain it
I'm not certain how to word it. 
but like
you can't force it
sand umbra
there shouldn't need to be a dozen mechanics that try to force equal power level for everything
if a weapon is OP or UP, change the weapon itself
don't bend the game to that weapon's will
zealous ridge
i think an excellent example are the changes true melee has gotten over several updates
sand umbra
balance the item around the game, not the game around the item
zealous ridge
soaring potion, eye bosses accelerating slower when you're holding true melee
that imo, is forcing viability in bad ways
hollow shell
Soaring Potion is fine, but that 'holding weapon' thing does seem pretty band-aid
sand umbra
mhm
zealous ridge
i hate it so much
sand umbra
it's a band-aid solution and doesn't get to the heart of the issue
zealous ridge
instead of nerfing bosses when holding some weapon maybe give true melee actual fucking approach options
for example
i know that example is thrown around a lot though
hollow shell
(oh I thought you were gonna give an example of an approach option)
hollow shell
m
clever canopy
I've done more math including all I can find on DR on the wiki and these are the results (I cba typing out all the constituents just know that the circumstances in which all these DR boosts are active are very specific):
with vanilla system - 149% DR
with current system - 59.84% DR
with the suggested system - 79.45% DR
Also in my last message I made the mistake of listing the damage taken for Thomas' system rather than the damage reduction, will edit to correct
hollow shell
ah
zealous ridge
thats a 20% difference it looks like
wait was the previous math wrong or is it different?
tawny garden
did you take into account that some DR boosts are additive and some are multiplicative?
clever canopy
The math was right I just listed the damage taken multiplier rather than the damage reduction
clever canopy
I listed 42.87 when it should have been 57.13
unreal viper
So more dr overall
hollow shell
yeah
zealous ridge
thank you for the help chief
unreal viper
Order really matters w the new idea tho.
zealous ridge
i think its easier to explain
unreal viper
It is.
zealous ridge
than current, it just adds out to more overall
clever canopy
No worries I've always enjoyed playing as a tank so this sorta stuff is enjoyable to me lol
zealous ridge
amazing
unreal viper
Nerd tank setups are fun.
I guess somethings would have to be nerfed in the new system, ie all 50% contact dr things
clever canopy
Order really matters w the new idea tho.
@unreal viper Actually not at all, if you have a worm scarf (10%) and a hallowed rune (7%) that would be wither 0.9x0.93 or 0.93x0.9, which are both the same
clever canopy
When I was playing as a tank in my last playthrough I never paid any attention to DR as defence was always more effective (and I mean always), with this change it would allow an alternate way to play as a tank
unreal viper
Wait noa
hollow shell
DR becomes more and more relevant as you go through the game, I thought?
unreal viper
Thomas said it works in a way that order matters.
hollow shell
Because attacks start dealing like 700 damage
so 10% DR is -70 damage
clever canopy
DR is honestly more useful for any class other than melee
unreal viper
Thing do absurd damage.
clever canopy
but DR happens after defence
clever canopy
So if you have 200+ defence that 700 damage shot is only 550
unreal viper
What if we just stole thorium’s dr u I.
clever canopy
Also other than scal nothing goes that high in damage
unreal viper
You can know your dr at all times.
hollow shell
(It'd be nice if Thorium made that into its own mod)
clever canopy
This seems like a good time to remind people that the deep diver is possibly the best accessory for a tank
buoyant scarab
There should be a Yharim boss right
buoyant scarab
Oh ok
craggy urchin
Make boss buffs later in progression more significant
Currently, bosses which get buffed later in progression, such as Calamitas post-Providence, are incredibly easy. The bosses are simply not able to pose a threat because their attacks are balanced around the player having all the gear they would normally possess during the original fights, but they are very simple to avoid with everything you have access to post-buff.
In terms of changes to fix this, adding attacks would be an effective way to mix up these fights. If that's too much of a commitment, even small changes such as speeding up some of their attacks would make a big difference
ok I made my earlier suggestion apply to more bosses, anything I should fix before posting?
heady storm
Oh so kind of like the Giant Clam once you enter hardmode?
heady storm
Just in Boss Rush? I don't remember myself.
rose latch
I rarely ever fight the buffed versions so I can't remember
heady storm
I didn't notice a change in Ravager for sure though.
Besides health and damage go wheeee.
tawny garden
yes
sinful steeple
Yeah
tawny garden
and calamitas' stat bloat isn't even enough to impose a challenge
hollow shell
(fyi Cin2Win, it's safe to put suggestions into #suggestions-posting straight away. That's why we have the approval process)
golden narwhal
Did provi respond to ping?
tawny garden
I guess no
golden narwhal
Rip
hollow shell
(alright now that chat has quieted down)
Is Oof's Prov sugg aight?
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/699359022364491868/737557109163425822
tawny garden
meh
I guess
dapper coral
yeah, i think some indicator would be nice
i think a specific sound for the debuff could be useful as well since it's really subtle unless you see your hp/debuff bar
but this is fine for a visual indicator
hollow shell
Aight
@midnight totem I can't help but feel like your suggestion is still overly specific and weak in the reasoning, suffering from "idea before the reason", or more likely, "it'd be cool"
((btw I have your suggestion saved, if it gets deleted and you want to repost it, let me know))
(also you mention that it'd be a "welcome addition to the Plantera-Golem progression" when that area is packed with Calamity bosses currently)
dapper coral
hardmode is packed with bosses, yeah
you got 6 straight off the rip with mechs + mech-alts
then these 7
LC and Deus then ML
there isn't really a suitable place to put another boss in here imo
also wasn't there a sugg somewhat recently about adding another Slime God? except it was hallowed
i don't think it went through because weak reasoning, but this seems to be maybe common?
hollow shell
If there was, it likely didn't make it past posting
due to borderline boss sugg and most likely weak reasoning
@fickle cedar Your suggestion is also quite specific and could use more reasoning. You only have one sentence of actual reason in your reason, which is literally just "I feel there is a lack"
((I have your suggestion saved, if it gets deleted and you want to repost it, let me know))
dapper coral
aren't literally the biggest ranger/mage accessories post-dog?
elemental quiver and ethereal something-or-other?
dapper coral
true
hollow shell
Greater variety would allow for more build set-up possibilities
hollow shell
indeed
dapper coral
but elemental quiver affects all ranged weapons except a select few, right?
i feel like the sugg is phrased in a way that makes it seem like there is nothing for gun/rocket users when in actuality it's just one accessory for the whole class
hollow shell
Yeah, I think he's mistaken in thinking that Quiver only affects bows
It affects all ranged weapons
tawny garden
tbf there's a lack of ranger/mage accessories added by cal in general
also aren't a lot of ranger/mage weapons
dapper coral
which is a big misnomer
hollow shell
Correction Philo
There are a lot of melee weapons*
tawny garden
this
hollow shell
There is a decent (even still above necessary) amount of ranger/mage
tawny garden
summoning
dapper coral
i feel there's a significant variety of ranger/mage weapons to use
also look at what i found (by me 3 months ago)
Suggestion: change the name and crafting materials for elemental quiver. The name Quiver is misleading because it provides boosts to all ranger subclasses, not just bow users. Also, to this end, the crafting recipe should change to include an accessory from each subclass, not just a bow accessory, so that bonuses are provided equally across all subclasses and not just bows.
tawny garden
did it reach the req?
tawny garden
dapper coral
can i repost it? i always forget what the deal is with that
zealous ridge
i dont at all like the idea of keeping the quiver thing around
dapper coral
wdym by quiver thing
dapper coral
magic quiver yeah
zealous ridge
and magic quiver has some crafts in vanilla now
dapper coral
yeah i disagree that it's a quiver
zealous ridge
artemis emblem having dumb celestial stone effects is also unnessecary
hollow shell
As long as it's been over a week and your sugg didn't reach the req, you can repost.
zealous ridge
how about instead we get something like sniper/recon scope (recon is 1.4 so that might be a thing later idk)
dapper coral
and that's regardless of whether it was in voting or not right? epic
hollow shell
yeah
sage granite
Rover, Was my PBG suggestion not agreed to be worth voting or do I need to repost it ?
hollow shell
It died, I think on accident
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/465195069406707722/735539613908861049
(you were there, lol)
You are able to repost it
although I do think the suggestion could be changed to instead be that PBG can spawn Plaguebringers in Phase 2 (i.e. all the time) in Death Mode
because it'd be weird to have Rev PBG start in Phase 2, and then Death PBG has the full fight again
sage granite
You've a fair point
I'll tinker with it, Yes I was around but I didn't see it all from work then totally forgot about it till now
hollow shell
aight
sage granite
Thanks for that
hollow shell
np
dapper coral
alright, i fixed some of the ideas in the sugg and reformatted it
hollow shell
Looks good 👍
dapper coral
sage granite
I hope that makes sense
hollow shell
Looks good Cata
Though you do say "since the minion adds about thing to worry about"
clever canopy
I kinda prefer the idea of having a separate accessory for bows and guns, maybe with a combination in the endgame
sage granite
Thanks autocorrect
hollow shell
heh
sage granite
Fixed
hollow shell
Honestly I'd be fine with the Ranger accessories being separate and staying separate
sage granite
Was ment to be "Another"
sage granite
Guns in ranger do seem to draw the short straw
clever canopy
I can get behind that, I do like the idea of each class having sub-classes (e.g. sentry summoner vs minion summoner, true melee vs projectiles vs yoyos)
sage granite
If I'm correct that only the bow gets a ranger potion buff but guns do not
hollow shell
Indeed
sinful steeple
This is oppression 
sinful steeple
Honestly wasn't the archer pot added when there were like only three guns in the entire game so a gun pot would be stupid
But now it's not like that
sage granite
Arrows get the cosmic treatment.....Bullets do not
sinful steeple
They also got the bloodstone treatment only until I assume Rust and Dust
real steppe
Regarding that circular thingy when fighting Providence, I guess simply removing the orange tint (or making it more orange, you're getting toasted after all) when you're too far away will do
hexed spade
someone clicked enter too fast
sinful steeple
Oof
hollow shell
aye
Real quick, do we think Glitch's Rage sugg is aight?
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/699359022364491868/737641002726195251
sinful steeple
Happens to the best of us
rose latch
yes
sinful steeple
Would probably be too easy to get for true meme
Because if 5 damage on true melee hit is 10 rage you get double the damage you deal in range which really adds up
hollow shell
(this is why you don't include exact numbers in your suggestions)
@ashen warren
Just say that it boosts the amount of rage True melee gets per hit
instead of givin values
radiant meadow
splitting up elemental quiver into more than one accessory sounds like a bad idea imo
hollow shell
Why's that?
radiant meadow
because it's supposed to be ranger's ultimate acc of a sort. The other classes also only have one of these. Eclipse's Mirror is an outlier.
hollow shell
(Part of the argument is that all-encompassing ultimate accessories aren't very interesting)
radiant meadow
and none of the other said accessories in that group deal with any subclass shenanigans unless you count next update's true melee damage boost
It doesn't say that at all though.
hollow shell
I'd be fine with this change to Elemental Quiver sparking a similar change for other classes
radiant meadow
yours
dapper coral
ah
radiant meadow
That's why I specifically was talking about quiver.
dapper coral
(Part of the argument is that all-encompassing ultimate accessories aren't very interesting)
this argument?
hollow shell
Yeah that
radiant meadow
and well
I don't see how splitting up an accessory into different subclasses would make it more interesting
radiant meadow
and it would limit player options
hollow shell
That way it's not just a one-and-done craft and equip, then you can use whatever weps you want
You can actually think about the loadout you want and the weapon types you wanna use
radiant meadow
because not all ranger weapons fall into categories
like starmada
this would basically be a starmada nerf because nothing would work with it
it's not a rocket, gun, bow, or flamethrower
hollow shell
They could give general ranger stat boosts along with their specific weapon-based effects
and then buff Starmada
radiant meadow
why would I buff something that doesn't need to be buffed.
just don't change quiver :)
hollow shell
Sad
dapper coral
hmm
wait, isn't starmada excluded from elemental quiver splitting effect anyways?
bc dust hell or something
maybe that was norfleet
hollow shell
That is indeed on Norfleet's page
radiant meadow
that was for balance reasons
but yes, it's norfleet
the holdout projectile for starmada is blacklisted though
because splitting holdout weapons is funny
hollow shell
(we could implement an accessory which affects all the wacky unclassed ranged weapons, specifically)
radiant meadow
Reject the suggestion :D
dapper coral
no pls
radiant meadow
it just seems like too much work with little pay off
dapper coral
either way it would be a fair amount of work, yes