Does this mark the end of Brainlet suggs 
?
#suggestions-discussion
subtle oracle
ripe wing
Yeah, that's the suggestion in a few words
hollow shell
Prolly
terse sundial
you vote on using the display channel then?
subtle oracle
Rip the old Sugg system
ripe wing
Yeah
terse sundial
and those we send to dev
hollow shell
Ye
terse sundial
alright
hollow shell
Hang on lemme make a flowchart
terse sundial
would be handy
gusty geode
Tbh I'm less concerned with brainlet suggs
And more concerned with how the kinda suggs
That are made by intelligent people
But those people are in a blind rage
Are gonna fit into this
subtle oracle
A flowchart? I guess that can help
gusty geode
You see those every once in a while
They're struggling with something and in their frustration they make sugg to make that thing easier
terse sundial
the only time I could see an issue is with a fragmented suggestion
ripe wing
You mean people that make really long suggestions for the sake of just doing it?
terse sundial
which is when we would have to step in and probably re-type the suggestion
hollow shell
Yeah fragmented suggestions won't work anymore
unless the bot is even smarter and can detect those too
ripe wing
What if the bot can detect multiple messages sent in a short amount of time by the same person
swift wadi
Is the suggestion rework being made, is that what's happening?
hollow shell
Yes
terse sundial
yeah
ripe wing
Yes
swift wadi
Cool
ripe wing
Think of it as a filter
swift wadi
Im guessing we're discussing the inner workings of the bot system
quick ice
they won't get put into display then
ripe wing
What?
quick ice
simple as that
agile cloud
oh wait
ripe wing
Well, yeah
agile cloud
right
terse sundial
normal rules will still apply
ripe wing
In a way, yes
gusty geode
: Meme
agile cloud
oh
ripe wing
One channel is where people post their suggestion, the other one is where they are displayed for votation
quick ice
really glad that Suggestions will get cleaned up by this change, since now I'll feel like reading and critiquing the suggestions knowing it isn't filled with as many crap suggestions
agile cloud
i can read, i promise
terse sundial
still need to kill all weapon balance suggestions and turn it into a simple submit your balance concern here ballot
agile cloud
then why dont we make boss balance ballots
swift wadi
3 channels, a discussion, a display, and a proposal. Normal members can speak in the first 2, display being where they write their suggs, after discussion here, if the sugg is okay'd it'll be sent by the bot to the display channel, where other members can vote on if they want it in the game
At least, thats how I understand it
A sugg must be verified before being voted on
swift wadi
Yeah like where you propose an idea, that works as a word for that right?
ripe wing
You mean when the suggestion is delivered to the devs, right?
quick ice
by proposal he means where people submit the suggestions for the Moderators/anyone else to check and verify so they can be put into Display
swift wadi
Yeah
ripe wing
Oh lord, I didn't read the "discussion" which is this one
swift wadi
Proposal: a plan or suggestion, especially a formal or written one, put forward for consideration or discussion by others.
ripe wing
My bad, I'm really sleepy
quick ice
if y'all don't understand, just scroll up in #suggestions-voting and find Rovers submission; It explains it pretty clearly
terse sundial
quick ice
Thank
wooden wedge
isn't that what's supposed to happen
sugg gets 120 stars -> goes to devs -> gets delivered
the thumbs up means it was approved
quick ice
he means that roved gave his own suggestion a ๐
ripe wing
Shhh
wooden wedge
yeah but I see no difference between his sugg getting a thumbs up and another sugg getting a thumbs up
he's not cheating any system
smoky wagon
i think the thumbs up implies multiple devs approved it
sand umbra
the thumbs up implies that it was widely approved of amongst the devs after a period of voting
ripe wing
Basically this
hollow shell
Suggestion Rework Flowchart!
terse sundial
note that meme suggestions will still be punishable
don't add it to the flowchart, but I'm just saying in general
hollow shell
(that would constitute a "VERY brainlet" suggestion)
terse sundial
yeah
subtle oracle
Posting is where it can be reviewed, when its confirmed to be a non-brainlet sugg then its sent to Sugg display
i get this
north ocean
Nerf Rev Skeletron Prime's final phase
The probes are the main problems with him. He summons a decent amount and within seconds he respawns even more before we get a chance to defeat all of them. If we do defeat all of them we won't have enough time to attack him before he summons even more. He needs a longer cooldown on that move.
terse sundial
should this flowchart be pinned for the time being?
subtle oracle
Sugg display is where the star system goes to play
north ocean
is this a brainlet suggestiong
molten dune
You're a brainlet
terse sundial
don't be rude
molten dune
I'm glad I didn't go with rev my first playthrough and stuck with expert
hollow shell
I'll pin it once the system gets rolling
It'll be confusing to pin it now
north ocean
yea ik my name says it
terse sundial
alright
hollow shell
That suggestion is not brainlet. That's pretty good.
terse sundial
^
terse sundial
I personally despise skele prime, so anything to make that fight more streamlined would be nice
subtle oracle
same Merk, i dont like how difficult the fight is
north ocean
i agree with you on a whole new degree
swift wadi
Same Merk
subtle oracle
I have a hatred of his High DR
hollow shell
(rip the bolding)
north ocean
my main problem with the fight is probes and the fact that somehow a MACHINe is capable of using magical abilities
wooden wedge
yeah if you copy paste on discord it doesn't copy the character effects
so like ** doesn't get copied
north ocean
idk man astrum aures or however you spell him doesnt really use magic
wooden wedge
well was aureus made by draedon?
north ocean
the twins spazmatizm uses a flame thrower that just uses a cursed flame
yes
he made it so it could go to the astral infection
but it got infected by it
wooden wedge
ah ok
subtle oracle
Doesnt use lasers? Can you explain his Lasers and Aureus spawns then 
north ocean
lasers arent magic in terraria
elder mist
this flowchart actually makes the suggestions rework look pretty good
north ocean
aureus spawns are just homing bombs
toxic kettle
When I fought Prime I had to ignore the probes and go for Prime, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to kill him before daytime
subtle oracle
That emote is cured,
toxic kettle
but they still acted as meatshields
north ocean
when i ignore the probes i usually instantly get destroyer PTSD
bitter drift
i think prime's main problem is that he is too tanky, not that he has too many probes
north ocean
nope
i destroy his health
its the probes that are the problem
at least thats for me
subtle oracle
Agreed Adir
north ocean
plus adrenaline destroys his health
toxic kettle
Prime having rockets, lasers and probes, being fast af and doing the spinny thing around you every like 10 seconds is... a bit OP if you ask me
north ocean
but i cant get adrenaline because of probes
true
prime has a specific problem for each class
toxic kettle
I had to get closer to Prime to actually do damage
subtle oracle
Easier than fucking twins
north ocean
i literally always no hit the twins wDYM
toxic kettle
Twins 
bitter drift
the main problem i have getting hit by prime are the head rockets
north ocean
everyone and every class has a problem with prime
north ocean
too many projectiles stupid probes stupid health stupid random usually unpredictable arm AI too much to focus on
as a way to defeat skeletron prime i just use shellfish staff and megashark
but then again i cant deal proper damage to him due to probes and the shellfish deal only a specific amount of damage
subtle oracle
Now this is devolving into complaining
north ocean
nah shellfish works for me
it destroys the laser and then they go to the saw and vice
it does incredible damage and i love it
dry grotto
my biggest issue is the probes tho
north ocean
my biggest issue is that its skeletron prime and even in vanilla i hate em
quick ice
suggestion proposal incoming
Add in a Life Crystal equivalent to the Enchanted Starfish:
This would give the player an alternate method of obtaining Life Crystals besides exploration, just like the Enchanted Starfish provides an alternate method of increasing your mana.
hollow shell
Sounds fair
civic pond
I like this one a lot 
quick ice
It's still exploration based though, and alternate ways of doing things can't hurt
ancient crow
ah yes, i shall go to the planetoids pre boss
wooden wedge
The planetoids are basically balanced for pre boss though
They contain a lot of the things you'd consider to be pre boss
ancient crow
tru
quick ice
another QoL Sugg
Make the Arcturus Astroidean boost Fishing Power in the other Calamity biomes:
Now that the Brimstone Crags and Sunken Sea have fishing catches, they too should recieve the fishing power boosts granted by the Arcturus Astroidean since they are Calamity Biomes.
hollow shell
mm it's kinda weird that it boosts the Sulphur Sea
quick ice
I think it's nice that there's a bait which you can use to increase your fishing ability in all Calamity biomes
or at least the idea of a bait that does that, since it only affects Sulphur Sea and Astral rn
in that case, should I rework the suggestion into adding a new bait that fills that niche in case the Arcturus Astroidean is moved to only affect Astral Fishing?
hollow shell
uhh
wooden wedge
I think this sugg needs a better reason
toxic kettle
is Arcturus Astroidean in the Astral Infection even better than Master Bait?
hollow shell
smh @bronze mauve that's one of the few things making Borealis Bomber still vaguely resemble a summon weapon
quick ice
it's on par with the Master Bait
hollow shell
If you could actually elaborate on reasons why it should have autofire
that'd be appreciated
hollow shell
easier to...
bronze mauve
also it resembles a summon weapon because they stick with you while not chasing an enemy
not autofiring has nothing to do with that
hollow shell
Basically Schmiggle I want you to add an actual reason to your suggestion
quick ice
but why does it need to be easier? It doesn't take up any minion slots which means it's effectively a straight damage boost for Summoners
bronze mauve
nobody likes clicking
a bunch
so why not click once and hold
its not that hard to understand
wooden wedge
Then why not just give all weapons autofire
bronze mauve
i shouldn't need to put a reason there unless there's negabrains on this discord
all weapons autofire
confirmed
wooden wedge
I don't see why this specific item needs it when there's others that don't
Especially with this reasoning
bronze mauve
also summoner is a brainless class and adding a somewhat brainful mechanic makes it less brainless therefore defeating the point of the class
wooden wedge
What
frail mantle
quick ice
why...would you want it to be more brainless...
digital saddle
summoner is not brainless lol
bronze mauve
negabrain class
digital saddle
brainless is 
bronze mauve
significantly more brainless than other classes
hollow shell
Why would you want to make it more brainless yeah
frail mantle
why
wooden wedge
How does a class being subjectively brainless have to do with anything
bronze mauve
why not though
hollow shell
Because that makes it more brainless
bronze mauve
final verdict: spamming click is not fun
foggy plover
just download omniswing mod
bronze mauve
doesnt work with omniswing i already tried that
frail mantle
aside from the fact that you can focus more on dodging, how is it the most brainless class when Ranged exists
wooden wedge
Then omniswing yeah
digital saddle
if you want a change its on you to provide a reason why
hollow shell
Can you add that to your suggestion please
Something along the lines of not having autoswing is annoying
wooden wedge
I mean that could apply to literally any weapon
digital saddle
free autofire seashell boomerang
quick ice
Rather than suggesting to remove something that requires a bit of focus to use as a Summoner, why not just leave it as is so Summoner can have something to use actively besides the initial summoning of your minions
hollow shell
uh ohhh @bronze mauve don't say that
frail mantle
hollow shell
It's good to not insult people in your suggestion, in fact.
radiant meadow
calling people negabrains is not good no
bronze mauve
i don't really care
wooden wedge
If you insult people your sugg won't get stars
quick ice
yeah, this is very brainlet
hollow shell
Should I just delete it
wooden wedge
Yes
frail mantle
yes
radiant meadow
yes imo
quick ice
yes
frail mantle
cast it into the fire
bronze mauve
feel free to delete it because it seems like everyone here is extremely sensitive
radiant meadow
if you're not going to bother improving your suggestion without insulting others, we don't need it
digital saddle
postn't
frail mantle
more like you're being unnecessarily aggressive
wooden wedge
Omniswing does exactly what you want
hollow shell
No it's just that you refused to provide a good reason and you were argumentative instead of helpful
wooden wedge
and the whole concept of "give autofire to thing" is a pretty poor concept
bronze mauve
i got pressured by 5 people at once into adding a reason of course i'm frustrated
hollow shell
And then you called them negabrains
frail mantle
because you're supposed to have a reason for every suggestion
hollow shell
^
radiant meadow
if you don't give a reason for the devs to do something, why would we do it
hollow shell
yeah it's in the rules pin
bronze mauve
there was a reason but i forgot because you deleted it
wooden wedge
Reason was because it was annoying
bronze mauve
ok
make borealis bomber autofire because spamming click is lame
boom
there you go
hollow shell
that's not a great reason
quick ice
the Reason should be more well thought out than "It's annoying"
wooden wedge
Give [any weapon that doesn't have autofire] auto fire because it's annoying to have to click
bronze mauve
According to all known laws of physics and extensive research by Schmiggle McSchmigglepants I have conclusive evidence to say that nobody likes spamming click.
there we go
hollow shell
You should elaborate on why this weapon specifically should get autofire
Because, yes, you could make that argument about any weapon. Lack of autofire means the weapon is more annoying to use.
sleek wadi
Why does Borealis Bomber not have auto-fire anyway, doesn't seem like it fires fast enough to cause the weapon to break anywya
wooden wedge
Get omniswing if you don't want to have carpel tunnel
hollow shell
iirc it's so that it's less of a magic weapon
wooden wedge
Check the configs I guess?
hollow shell
A damn shame
sleek wadi
But auto-fire is on every other summon weapon, even the sentries
quick ice
in that case, just don't use the weapon
It's not an essential part of your playthrough because it's just a weapon
wooden wedge
Autofire isn't on every summon weapon actually
Pretty sure vanilla summon weapons don't have autofire
sleek wadi
Oh right, that was a thing added in the most recent patch wasn't it, think it missed a couple of vanilla summoner items
hollow shell
@red tartan You ought to at least mention that it's because water is conductive
What's why it makes sense
red tartan
Too lazy
wooden wedge
Also why specifically 5 seconds?
hollow shell
Please do it anyway
red tartan
Ok
hollow shell
And yeah you don't need to specify the exact amount of time
wooden wedge
If you're too lazy to edit it it can just be deleted
sleek wadi
Still pretty weird as Borealis Bomber is a calamity summon and I think every calamity summon has autofire.
red tartan
Im also typing in a hurry because im trying not to die by lightning
hollow shell
Multiplayer?
subtle oracle
Realism in terraria
red tartan
Yeah
hollow shell
Aight
sleek wadi
So there's a reason to have Borealis Bomber auto-fire I guess. Consistency with other Calamity summon items
wooden wedge
Just dig yourself a small hole
hollow shell
Yeah that could've been provided as a reason, Spark
Still not great cuz Borealis is quite inherently different from other summons
but it is a reason
*summon weapons
gray nebula
make borealis bomber summon passive aureus spawns that only attack when damaged
just like the real ones
digital saddle
gray nebula
that's not even a joke it would make it feel a lot more like an actual summoner weapon
smh
quick ice
wouldn't they be NPCs by that point?
digital saddle
i think its good that summoner is being given more weapon variety
aside from strictly minions
frail mantle
yea more active summons is pog
digital saddle
the summons with a summon effect are really good
that brimmy drop
and the post darksun ufos
gray nebula
why would they be npcs
damageable minions are just damageable minions also I'm gonna suggest to add damageable minions to the mod because they would be cool
gray nebula
yes
digital saddle
tfw your spider minions die to contact dmg
quick ice
oh, mb
yeah go suggest it then that would be cool
quick ice
gray nebula
I'm gonna post it tomorrow if I remember to do it
because I have the cool dev color the suggestion should get a lot of stars anyways 
quick ice
yes, Priveleged-Colored-Name-Man
digital saddle
For damagable summons I think you would need greater control over them
Also like
Imagine damagable summons vs scal
gray nebula
damageable summons open up a lot of cool opportunities
like martyr summons that you have to kill to activate , with sacrificial daggers n such, shield summons, summonsed that buff you but can get killed etc
gray nebula
yeah there's a fuckton of cool stuff that could be made with damageable minions
a nanomachine swarm that you can use to repair minions or boost their damage
digital saddle
Ichor sticker summon
gray nebula
and you could make them interact with rage just like true melee
sand umbra
damageable minions are just damageable minions
is this the part where I tell you that every projectile that can be harmed is internally an NPC
gray nebula
possibly but they're damageable minions
void kelp
vile spit health bars
gray nebula
don't care about the technically :owned:
digital saddle
dark energy healthbars not despawning when cv dies
sand umbra
there is also no NPC field for minion slots
so any NPC summoned by a summon weapon would have to be tied to a projectile
gray nebula
I mean I already knew they are npcs because I asked dom how he made summons damageable
sand umbra
e
gray nebula
surprisingly easy
sand umbra
I never said it was hard
gray nebula
now I need to convince people to vote for my suggestion to convince the other devs that damageable summons would be cool
sand umbra
if it was hard I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly how to do it 
gray nebula
sand umbra
damageable summons are only cool if you're willing to balance around them
gray nebula
that's what testers are for
gray nebula
what
bitter drift
was talking about the recent suggestion
gray nebula
oh the lightning sugg
sand umbra
in unrelated news how many fucking cat emotes do you have
bitter drift
yes
gray nebula
probably more than I should
sand umbra
I see
gray nebula
subtle oracle
Iban probably has 100 forms of 
bitter drift
almost everyone: Iben how many cat emotes do you have?
Iben: yes
gray nebula
ibenplay
quick ice
Ibenplaying games bro
subtle oracle
foggy plover
bitter drift
new emote: cryo cry
ancient crow
bitter drift
n o
ancient crow
oh
foggy plover
ohhhh
ancient crow
sad boi hours
subtle oracle
We are all sad
bitter drift
stawp it, get some help
sand umbra
there is an overabundance of cats in this channel
gray nebula
sand umbra
that was not a cue for more cats e
bitter drift
:b r u h:
bitter drift
xD
subtle oracle
Damageable summons? What kind of shit
gray nebula
time to make my dev item an accessory that makes every summon damageable
widepeepohappy
subtle oracle
WeirdChamp
carmine stream
@gray nebula wrong
bitter drift
the closest thing we got to it is the post eye summon of the acid rain
gray nebula
damageable summons that you need to heal, damageable shield summons, damageable healer summons, damageable summons you have to kill to activate
etc
ancient crow
ayy i have this one too
quick ice
an issue that I see with Damageable summons you have to kill is how you would be able to kill them in a summoner only playthrough, since Minions probably wouldn't target it
gray nebula
yes
you've gotta lure the bosses into your summons
or you could have possessed sacrificial knives to kill summons
quick ice
very cool idea then; Hell, if those types of new Summon Weapons were implemented Summoner would feel like a new class with all the new categories of weapons that could be implemented
ancient crow
endgame summon weapon crafted using astral bars that just spams mines everywhere like deus
frail mantle
isn't CD pretty good vs Yharon as long as you can land hits on him
karmic stone
for that point of progression (post DoG), pretty weak against anything but the pumpkin moon and frost moon
e
Yea it is
ashen warren
I mean it might also be me who sucks at dodging but I pretty much always died against yharon as soon as I try to hit him with it
karmic stone
There are alot of windows you can consistently use it in iirc
frail mantle
https://youtu.be/exW7ohIysgY old rippers moment but i think the point still stands
sand umbra
doesn't CD eat Yharon alive like the KFC he is
along with being arguably one of the best "True Meleeโข๏ธ" options for SCal
hollow shell
well it won't be true melee for much longer iirc
indigo fog
Does that mean DoG's lore item will serve no purpose or will that be changed
zealous ridge
dog's lore item is kind of silly already
sand umbra
implying DoG's lore item served a purpose in the first place
hollow shell
Apparently DoG's lore item's purpose is to make true melee viable in the post-DoG tier by buffing pre-DoG true melee items so much they become viable
iirc
sand umbra
it gives you a boost to true melee at precisely the point such a boost is no longer practical
karmic stone
old rippers moment but i think the point still stands
ye
20% is already gone before Adren reaches 3/4
๐ณ
zealous ridge
well i mean
why not just add more true melee weapons
or rework pre-existing ones into true melee
and like, yeah
hollow shell
I'd be for reworking
sand umbra
yeah like
that's a horribly backwards way of making the fundamental concept of melee viable
hollow shell
but "why not add new ones" isn't a great argument
because that is the most effort execution
zealous ridge
its the most effort, yeah
sand umbra
really?
zealous ridge
something i personally would like the devs to do, but i understand that's unrealistic
reworking sounds... better, yeah
sand umbra
I thought the most effort came with instead completely ignoring the lore item and continuing to make projectile weapons that forget what "melee" means
hollow shell
It's not that hard but the devs just don't wanna do it, apparently
sand umbra
if you absolutely cannot add new weapons
zealous ridge
like, let's take the uhh... yharon drops
sand umbra
the next best solution would be making melee melee again and reworking existing weapons to follow that format
zealous ridge
either dragon rage or burning sky could be true melee
hollow shell
Make The Enforcer true melee
s'already got a direct hit effect
zealous ridge
nadir could be reworked to be a true-melee oriented weapon, rather than slapping a projectile on it like current
hollow shell
Dragon Rage would be better to rework cuz Burning Sky is pretty iconic at this point
hollow shell
(and Dragon Rage is just... Flying Dragon but better)
zealous ridge
i know its a patron
but like, its not unprecedented
idk how blackhand would feel about it intrinsically
sand umbra
any changes to it would have to be run by Blackhand
zealous ridge
yeah ik
sand umbra
there are. very specific policies in place regarding patron weps 
zealous ridge
thomas i know how patron work
sand umbra
well I'm reminding you how patron work
zealous ridge
sand umbra
you can thank me later
that said I just looked at Enforcer and uh
yeah this could be a reasonable contender for a rework into a proper melee wep
zealous ridge
enforcer shooting a godslayer fireball is pretty boring already
sand umbra
it's decently big, it's got an on-hit effect, it's literally right after DoG
zealous ridge
and as for stream gouge
sand umbra
Stream Gouge could get retooled too
zealous ridge
yeah, i could see it
sand umbra
I would say Essence Flayer but despite my...complicated feelings on the treatment of melee
I have a soft spot for Death Sickle-type weps
hollow shell
Yeah and if we rework the other two there's not much need
ashen warren
I re-tested the CD and yes while it does kinda do a lot of damage to yharon it still a) is really risky as you are in the charge range and b) feels really wonky to use bcs half of the time it attacks weirdly
zealous ridge
the godslayer stuff could be true melee, while the cosmilite upgrades could be the projectile archetype
true melee or, like, close range
essence flayer is a more close-range weapon, i would argue
sand umbra
Death Sickle is the objectively best projectile melee wep design-wise don't @ me
hollow shell
Melee does get both DD and Galaxia, which are projectile-heavy
sand umbra
byeah
Cosmilite upgrades already grant plenty of funny projectile melee options
it's only fair that those looking for more traditional melee weps get a couple of options going into Yharon
hollow shell
(well, 2. Galaxy Smasher is relatively close-range cuz it's a Paladin-style boomerang)
sand umbra
especially at precisely the point that "true melee" gets an enormous boost in the form of DoG's lore item
zealous ridge
and for post-darksun
i guess, dragon rage and nadir if blackhand is okay with it
maybe even like...
sand umbra
something about Greatsword of 
zealous ridge
ah greatsword of bruh
maybe?
greatsword of judgement could get a change too, honestly
hollow shell
ah yes I forgot about Bruh
zealous ridge
their effects are more summoner-like than anything
having them be true meme options could be noice
sand umbra
certainly big enough to be true melee, I can tell you that much
look at this big chungus blade
dapper violet
true melee: on hit, the weapon becomes larger up to a max of doubled length
hollow shell
Blah has a really heavy projectile focus so I dunno about reworking it
zealous ridge
blah and judgement are both iffy imo
their effects, again, are more like sentry summons
sand umbra
both of them feel weird to me
sleek wadi
Considering Blah seems to be the main component to Earth you'd think it'd be true melee but apparently not.
hollow shell
Elemental Excalibur
zealous ridge
blah upgrades to elemental excalibur
sleek wadi
Did I confuse it with Grand Guardian?
zealous ridge
ye
sleek wadi
Fuck
hollow shell
Earth's got GG and Galactus
Galactus is not true melee but it still works, because Earth does a very Galactus-like effect on true melee hits
s'pretty neat actually
zealous ridge
now, making blah more like traditional elemental excalibur from tconfig avalon would be hot tbh
like, not the free stun
but i mean, like, having it deal good damage, have dot debuffs, and maybe an on-hit effect
sand umbra
okay but can we talk about the entire Biome Blade line
zealous ridge
like, perhaps it could have the judgement's sort of laser fountain thing, but as a true melee effect, spraying homing sparks downwards to curve up back on the enemy
hollow shell
Anyway can we get a sugg out of this
sand umbra
okay
hollow shell
Reworking Enforcer and/or Stream Gouge to be true melee
hollow shell
or some other one
zealous ridge
also, sr rove, may i ask a question?
hollow shell
sure
sleek wadi
Enforcer certainly has the base damage of a true melee weapon, but I'm not sure how Melee does for not-homing projectiles at post-DoG. I think Devil's Devastation doesn't home?
zealous ridge
im uh, compiling a google doc for a suggestion im making to rebalance yharon, and i was wondering what you would think of this
so
zealous ridge
i was just wondering if the sugg could have a doc in it, but have the actual "suggestion content" be on the post itself
like, the doc is optional, and sort of a supplement to detail why yharon should be reworked
for the devs, mostly
hollow shell
You could yeah
I'm worried about the fact that you need a doc for it
That either tells me it's really specific or really grand scale
Oh is it just a massive reason?
zealous ridge
its a big reason, ye
detailing everything with yharon'
is like... difficult to do in a single post
hollow shell
aight
zealous ridge
im not telling the devs how to rework it, just giving a lot of reasons why i think he should be reworked
sort of a
list of grievances
dapper violet
oh boy
zealous ridge
for those who want to read it
hollow shell
you can post it here
zealous ridge
would it be better just to post in here and keep it out of the main sugg?
sleek wadi
Devil's Devastation and Galaxy Smasher both don't home in anyway, alright sick lets get that Enforcer/Stream Gouger turned into a true melee weapon.
hollow shell
just post it here for now and we'll see
zealous ridge
alright, im not done with it just yet
but ive been compiling it
ill post in a sec
gray nebula
Google doc suggs are usually ech because not a lot of people bother actually opening the doc
sand umbra
Rework The Enforcer and Stream Gouge into true melee weapons.
โ
True melee has always been treated very strangely in the Calamity world, despite being the intended focus of melee (well, until shit like Vamp Knives and Daybreak happened), and has always been on a rollercoaster ride between excessively viable and not viable at all. Perhaps the biggest anomaly for its viability comes right after the Devourer of Gods, where the player receives an enormous boost to true melee weapons with a mighty +50% true melee damage...
...at precisely the point where you stop getting true melee weapons that function. Giving these two some true melee focus would not only perhaps help them stand out a bit more as weapons amongst the oversaturation of projectile melee post-DoG, but would also help to give DoG's lore item renewed purpose in the grand scheme of things, even if only for a short time.
I did the a write
zealous ridge
yeah, ik iban
also good sugg thomas
that's why im not making the entire thing just a doc
hollow shell
Yes that seems good
sand umbra
any objections, speak now, blah blah blah, you know how it goes
zealous ridge
ill be making a normal sugg and maybe add a doc for further reading
rather than having it all just be something that not everyone will click on anyways
sand umbra
how to win #suggestions-voting with one simple trick
gray nebula
have a colored role
ashen warren
nu stream gouge
gray nebula
get stars
sand umbra
ye stream gouge
zealous ridge
gray nebula
stream gouge kinda very forgettable iirc
ashen warren
ya exactly having a coloured name automatically increases ur number of stars by 50%
gray nebula
so forgettable in fact I don't even remember what it does
sleek wadi
Au contraire, stream gouge boutta get revived 
sand umbra
precisely
all part of my master plan to help older Calamity weapons become appreciated and iconic
ashen warren
It's not allowed to suggest a biome, but is it allowed to suggest something along the line of a mini biome like the meteorite biome ?
sleek wadi
The spear itself already ignores I-frames btw, literally just speed it up, give a bit of a range increase, and axe the projectile. Boom true melee Stream Gouge
gray nebula
suggesting a minibiome isn't disallowed but uh
I mean it could fit in the "too big" category
are you gonna suggest a plague hive maybe
subtle oracle
Enforcer into a True Melee wep, what type of crap???
ashen warren
yeah kinda that
gray nebula
daring today aren't we
ashen warren
bcs I always found it weird that theres no noticeale "plague" in the jgl
other than enemies
subtle oracle
I guess Thomas couldn't beat his True melee PT
gray nebula
if you read the don'ts doc fully you would have realised a plague minibiome is part of the frequently suggested stuff
gray nebula
bruh momentum confirmed
sleek wadi
There being a sudden void of true melee weapons at literally the end of the game, when every other stage has at least one option and ESPECIALLY right after DoG gives you something that should be a massive boost, is whack as fuck. I do like the direction Thomas' suggestion goes in mostly because it solves that issue while also dodging the melee bloat problem.
gray nebula
I mean maybe the dog lore exists to compensate for the lack of true melee weapons jaja
sleek wadi
I was about to make a comment about switching Dragon Pow to true melee but flails are about to me true meleen't soon
subtle oracle
You want a projectile firing Melee weapon like the enforcer, to be reworked into a True melee wep
sand umbra
yes
hollow shell
yes
sand umbra
Stream Gouge too
subtle oracle
So remove the Projectiles?
hollow shell
And probably buffing the direct effect
zealous ridge
stream gouge and enforcer are pretty boring lmao
hollow shell
Enforcer already has a true melee effect
gray nebula
you've already got mg excelsus and that one dog boomerang
hollow shell
lol pvp
gray nebula
who actually pvps
sand umbra
projectile melee already gets an obscene amount of options in the form of Cosmilite upgrades to past weapons
sleek wadi
I do not consider DoG lore to be adequate compensation, it'd be like removing Calamitas' summoner unlocks because "just use lore my guy"
sand umbra
it's only fair that the traditional melee fans of the universe get at least a couple more options
sleek wadi
If DoG lore gets nerfed because of it, then so be it.
sand umbra
because rn DoG's lore is a boost that is given at precisely the point where it is no longer applicable
zealous ridge
sand umbra
gray nebula
it's like a power upgrade for true melee that isn't directly a new weapon 
gray nebula
summoner hardly getting new weapons between bosses be like
ignore the newest calamity summoner updates
sleek wadi
It SHOULD be a power upgrade, but it shouldn't be literally the only one especially when it can't do its job. The clone lore thing was a kinda roundabout way to make my argument.
gray nebula
Well it's a subclass
idk why calamity likes true melee so much because terraria bosses aren't really designed around true melee viability
sand umbra
Terraria, strangely enough, has most of its melee weapons be "true melee"
projectile melee is a surprising minority in vanilla until post-Plantera, being comprised primarily of boomerangs
which is weird, because most bosses forget that they lack context-sensitive contact damage and are not particularly balanced around traditional melee at all
sleek wadi
It's probably because the bosses aren't designed to be fightable without projectiles is WHY true melee gets so much of its charm. Not like we couldn't bend the game to have tons and tons of attacks that kill people at range harder than people up close, but the overhaul would be so massive we might as well just make a new game instead.
zealous ridge
terraria bosses are just not designed well, like at all
sand umbra
I mean yeah
ashen warren
bosses are ok
sand umbra
LC still best boss don't @ me
zealous ridge
but everything in hardmode is pretty ech
cultist and ml are close
but they are still lacking in some departments
anyways
sand umbra
ML has a lot of interesting ideas but they all tend to trip over each other
sleek wadi
Designing an attack to be more dangerous at range is not impossible, what with acceleration, curved projectiles, attacks that straight up can't spawn within' a certain distance of the boss, cones, etc.
zealous ridge
its because he does it all at the same damn time
all these great attacks, ruined by the fact that they're just stacked on top of each other
sand umbra
Cultist is arguably the best from a design standpoint but he dies in 2 nanoseconds because by the time you fight him you have shit from OOA, Golem, the Martians, and Duke
byeah
ML has a lot of really good ideas
but they're all hampered in execution by the fact that they all trip over each other's feet trying to get their shot at the spotlight
so you ultimately just get this really awkward fight that could be improved if the devs spent more time on it, but it's left in this awkward, half-finished/half-balanced state
...which, amusingly enough, makes ML arguably the most fitting climax for this game we all know and love
sleek wadi
Terraria is wack in many aspects. Tone is wack, balance is wack, some concepts are wack, sprite quality is wack, holiday stuff is WACK
hearty yew
tom
sand umbra
it's all left in this half-finished/half-balanced state
hearty yew
Not regarding this discussion, but regarding changing Stream Gouge and The Enforcer into true melee weapons.
I'm mostly memeing
sand umbra
ah
hearty yew
You're looking at the issue backwards
You are trying to make true melee viable when it shouldn't be
You are trying to justify a lore item by butchering mainline weapons, instead of butchering the lore item
The lore item should be the item that gets butchered to suit the game
if that makes sense
Or it can just be useless
sleek wadi
If y'all don't want it to be a thing, kill off the damn subclass
hearty yew
i'm actually going in that direction spark
i'm removing rage bonuses for true melee when i rework rage
subtle oracle
Wait what, is Ozz pulling a terraria 1.4? True melee is getting merged into melee like how throwing is getting merged into ranged???
hearty yew
anyway, sorry to sudddenly butt in and be a douchebag, but I think the whole "justify DoG lore!!!!" thing is the new "yoyo viability pls!!1!" and it feels fruitless
uh
true melee is melee damage.
the hell are you on about?
hollow shell
Throwing is not a subclass
hearty yew
throwing isn't a subclass, it's a separate damage type
hollow shell
Throwing is a class
hearty yew
thanks rover
subtle oracle
Im talkin about True melee here
hollow shell
Yoyos are a subclass of melee
They deal melee damage
Spears also deal melee damage
sleek wadi
Not like, mechanic fuckery just straight up, all true melee boosts are gone and shift all on-hit effects to on swing. A big part of the push here is that true melee is literally almost finished, only needing 1 more weapon to there name on 1 tier.
subtle oracle
I just made a comparison with Thrower
hollow shell
True melee weapons deal melee damage
hearty yew
oh it's the insane subclass people at it again
we have a joke on dev server about this
"medusa head upgrade when"
subtle oracle
Medusa head Buff PogU
sleek wadi
If y'all didn't want this to pop up, it shouldn't have been pushed in the first place
sand umbra
smh denying the chad power of the Medusa Head-only playthrough
hearty yew
that's an old calamity design decision I wasn't around for
we can make amends over time
i would really like to change a ton of featureless true melee swords to be spears and/or make them shoot short-range "shockwaves" like flying dragon that apply the effect
so they aren't all just Beam Sword #135 or Terra Blade #12, but instead have a unique effect
however, ik at least fabsol is heavily against that
it's not something we all agree on
subtle oracle
Oh that sounds interesting
hearty yew
you may be right that the easiest way out is to just add a true melee viable weapon for that one last tier and call it a day
and then revisit this later
subtle oracle
Melee is becoming unique?
hearty yew
which tier is it anyway?
hollow shell
You can't make a true melee weapon fire a short-range projectile or else it stops being true melee
hearty yew
say that to ultimus cleaver
subtle oracle
Animus blade
hollow shell
Ultimus Cleaver should not be true melee
hearty yew
Melee is one of the more unique and varied classes overall
sand umbra
Ultimus Cleaver 
hearty yew
Summoner was just made massively cooler in the most recent update
sand umbra
Summoner is like god now
subtle oracle
Melee is just a combination of other classes, some melee weps are mage weps and some are throwing
zealous ridge
massively overpowered, more like it
hearty yew
but that's just opinion
sleek wadi
Post-DoG, now that flails are no longer gonna be true melee, no longer has a weapon. I guess there is also Dark Sun tier but gear from DoG tends to stay relevant till Scal so it isn't as pressing.
hollow shell
Ozza can you find a way (when you have time) to declassify Ultimus as true melee
because Ben doesn't want to do it iirc
hollow shell
Thank you
hearty yew
which is calamity's "null projectile"
sand umbra
hearty yew
done.
hollow shell
Thank you very much
subtle oracle
Ranged is not Samey? There are multiple types of ranged weps... There are ones that shoot pumpkins, magic ranged weapons... Launchers, Bows, Guns... Now Rouge being Samey i agree upon
Opinions
hearty yew
i mean. rogue has daggers, javelins, boomerangs, bombs, etc.
subtle oracle
sand umbra
real talk: Mage is the OG variety king
subtle oracle
Mage has alot of variety i agree, i just don't like the Mana System
sand umbra
the large majority of mage weps in vanilla (and in Cal even) have wildly varying effects
hearty yew
what ultimus cleaver does now is
sand umbra
every item you get feels new in some way
hearty yew
it fires a projectile that has no hitbox and exists for 1 frame then instantly deletes itself
so it's "not true melee"
because it has item.shoot != 0
hollow shell
(Inferna Cutter also fires projectiles on every swing but is considered true melee iirc)
hearty yew
sleek wadi
Inferna is not true melee IIRC, but if it is who the fuck got away with that
sand umbra
well yes but also Inferna Cutter's sparks don't really do anything
also can we have Inferna Cutter get the Axe of Purity treatment someday
hearty yew
it's already on my todo list
subtle oracle
there is more to True melee than just non-projectile firing weps, there are flails and Yo-Yos too
hollow shell
Getting sparks was its Axe of Purity treatment, funnily enough
sand umbra
gamer
sleek wadi
The sparks from Inferna Cutter reach the end of the screen, how is that even kinda close to true melee.
hearty yew
yoyos haven't been true melee in forever
hollow shell
(and the crit explosions)
hearty yew
flails are being removed from true melee next update
i'm telling you
we are going in that direction
digital saddle
I just hope stealth gets buffed
sand umbra
I will stand by the assertion that yo-yos should not have been classed as melee until the end of time
e
subtle oracle
Or maybe reworking some of the weps
hearty yew
@digital saddle Stealth is overnerfed, we know
subtle oracle
as you said
hollow shell
Nah not eliminating it
hearty yew
We intentionally overnerfed it
because it was so fucking broken
We can put some power back into it, but it'll need testing to be safe.
sand umbra
Utensil Poker moment intensifies
subtle oracle
Or whatever that wep was called
subtle oracle
Cursed emote
digital saddle
stealth is kinda useful with like
hearty yew
inferna cutter killed
digital saddle
eclipse fall
hollow shell
awesomerad
digital saddle
otherwise i havent been able to make it work
hearty yew
anyway
sorry to be a bummer
i personally will deliver you exo gun to make up for it
i promise
hollow shell
No hang on I have two remaining entries on my "True melee!??!" list
but I don't know for sure about these two
Dragon Pow and The Oracle
hearty yew
dragon pow hasn't counted in forever
hollow shell
I have vague recollections of hearing that these are true melee
hearty yew
because it has the fuckin sparks
hollow shell
aight so that was fixed, cool
subtle oracle
Pow is True melee correct?
subtle oracle
And as Ozz said, "yo-yos are not true melee 
hollow shell
Great, thank you Ozza
hearty yew
hail: being fixed next update
originally oracle was allowed to benefit from true melee boosts because it didn't shoot anything itself
this was horrifically broken
that's when oracle was getting like 2:30 on scal
and doing 480k dps
sand umbra
hearty yew
we then buffed the aura power to compensate removing true melee boosts
subtle oracle
Alot is being fixed next update, you guys must have put alot work into it...
hearty yew
it was still too strong
sleek wadi
Well no flails are going to be counted, kinda of understandable when Sunfury with Fungal Symbiote was legit better than Ball of Fugo and it wasn't even a contest.
subtle oracle
Hopefully Birb MP bug is gone
hearty yew
yeah that one's gone
subtle oracle
Pog moment
digital saddle
spent fuel container prolly getting annihilated next update LOL
sand umbra
I misread that as Starfury for a moment because I keep forgetting Sunfury exists
subtle oracle
Its the best pre h mode pre boss wep in vanilla
Why would you ever forget about such a legendary wep ?
digital saddle
molten fury is pre boss
digital saddle
hollow shell
sand umbra
Starfury is the pre-boss one
Floating Island sword, makes stars appear when you swing it every so often
I just imagined that thing with Symbiote and my brain expanded from realizing how absurd that would be
hollow shell
Molten Fury is the Hellstone bow
Technically pre-boss but intended to be around Skeletron
Sunfury is the Underworld Shadow Chest flail, definitely post-Skeletron
digital saddle
the most awkward thing about vanilla swords is projectiles having longer cooldown than use time
sand umbra
I'd actually argue that's the best thing about earlier vanilla swords
but alas. topic for another time, most likely
hollow shell
That is a cool feature that isn't really represented in Calamity at all afaik
sand umbra
it's really neat
digital saddle
true melee is excruciatingly hard to balance
ashen warren
I mean isnt it supposed to be more of a challenge ? so why need to balance it ? just keep it weaker
sand umbra
traditional melee is really tricky to balance for and against
subtle oracle
I wouldn't be surprised if it got eliminated completely tbh
hollow shell
The challenge comes from the fact that you're 5ft away from the boss
digital saddle
true melee works fine for regular enemies, but it just doesnt fit in with boss weapons
hollow shell
It should be stronger than projectile options in order to compensate for the fact they're you're putting yourself much more in harms way
sand umbra
it mainly falls apart on bosses because of what Rover said and the fact that context-sensitive contact damage is very much not a thing that exists in Terraria
e
digital saddle
i killed cal in like 30 seconds with it
hearty yew
Most of what's getting wrecked about it is actually that its stealth strike mysteriously ignored iframes
That was unintentional
Once that was fixed it was way more balanced lol
sand umbra
lel
subtle oracle
True melee weps need to be large in order to hit the boss, weps like Grand
and GRAND DAD work well
sleek wadi
Except they don't, in the true melee run the most prevalent weapons are actually claws.
hollow shell
because of melee speed being broken
subtle oracle
Mycelial claws ?
sand umbra
melee speed is funny
sleek wadi
Legit, all of HM progression is literally 2 weapons for true melee.
digital saddle
mantis claws skill
subtle oracle
Jeez
sleek wadi
Fetid Baghnakhs until Mantis Claws, run with that until Stellar Striker
Not like other options don't exist, it's just that claws are literally just better
unkempt bolt
stellar striker until last mourning
until cosmic discharge
then you're done
but i thought subclass specific suggs weren't allowed
or something along the lines of that
sleek wadi
Options for true melee exist on each tier, claws just muscle out the rest of them.
hollow shell
They are indeed not allowed
but Thomas's sugg in there is motivated by DoG's lore item
ashen warren
Wait can't you kill plantera with fetid baghnakhs before she kills you by just standing in rev ? or is that only possible in vanilla difficulties
hollow shell
not necessarily the purpose of doing a subclass-only run
unkempt bolt
it's possible in expert
subtle oracle
Dog's lore item is True melee exclusive
void kelp
Iโd assume itโs moreso possible when damage isnโt too high yeah
unkempt bolt
but you can't do it in rev because she's immortal while tendrils are alive
sleek wadi
Like, on post-Plant tier you do have Feralthron Claymore
unkempt bolt
if it weren't for that, it'd be possible yeah
ashen warren
oh yeah those things
void kelp
DoGโs lore needs to be made more relevant since post-DoG you do indeed get literally no new true melee options
sleek wadi
Or just rework these already existing, completely overshadowed weapons instead of dodging the problem.
Also lore items represent their respective bosses really well, and DoG's lore item as is is straight up DoG as a boss.
You can not design another lore item that would be better at reflecting DoG than the current one.
ashen warren
you can perhaps
give it damage reduction while in true melee
perhaps something like that ?
sleek wadi
It'd take a lot more thought than just removing a projectile and speeding up a weapon.
hollow shell
What if you took 95% less damage if a projectile hit your midsection instead of your head or feet 
sleek wadi
Also still true melee focused, which is what a DoG lore rework would probably remove.
Also rover, taking that idea seriously it fits Eidolon Wyrm better than DoG considering Eidolon Wyrm's segments are literally invincible IIRC.
Thus, adult eidolon wyrm lore item
gusty geode
More lore items would be cool ngl
sand umbra
more ways to discover the lore in-game would be neat
hollow shell
wait nvm I'm mistaken
sand umbra
rather than having to go elsewhere for it all
hollow shell
Body deals damage to you, you can't damage body
sand umbra
okay but like
void kelp
more lore 
sand umbra
The body segments of Eidolon Wyrms are intangible, dealing no damage to the player and having complete immunity to attacks. Only their heads are capable of dealing or receiving damage.
wiki moment
sand umbra
I'm pretty sure someone would've fixed it by now if that's how it works
hollow shell
Can anybody anecdotally confirm whether they do or don't
I'm seeing a damage value in the source but I'm fairly sure they don't deal damage (but I have nothing solid to back that up)
oh okay nvm it's just really silly
AI() sets its damage to 0 immediately
Probably for some reason.
subtle oracle
I think that's untrue, ive been killed by the Wyrm's body before
sand umbra
Eidolon Wyrms can, in fact, only deal damage or be damaged at the head
sand umbra
queen sail
Does the anarchy blade meme still work on AEW btw
sleek wadi
That was patched out the moment we found out about it.
queen sail
hollow shell
@plush forge You needn't provide example ingredients
wooden wedge
they have their crafting recipe because they have more uses than just furniture @plush forge
hollow shell
(Gato referring to Sky Mill and Ice Machine)
plush forge
ight
hollow shell
I think it's okay for someone to want furniture
s'not necessary but it doesn't make the sugg invalid
Ah good catch Lucipo
wooden wedge
still needs a reason.,.,.,.,
wooden wedge
my brain is kill
ashen warren
Hmm. Should i post a suggestion consisting of a series of possible changes to Rev+ Skeletron Prime in order to make it a fairer bossfight? Let's face it, the fight has plenty of unfair moments, which could be relatively easily fixed.
hollow shell
You could list the possible changes as examples but the focus of the sugg should be just making Rev Prime fair
Don't get too specific with your solutions
but do explain the problems
ashen warren
I see
I'll explain the problems -and- suggest a solution for each of them then?
I'll make a draft and post the suggestion tomorrow
hollow shell
Yeah. The important part is that the issues get fixed at all. Whatever specific solution you come up with isn't as important as solving the problem itself.
Unless you have a solution which is like, killing two birds with one stone or has other good reasons
You can include solutions tho.
ashen warren
Let's make an example then...
hollow shell
@upbeat tapir their*
upbeat tapir
OH SORRY
upbeat tapir
YOU HAPPY
hollow shell
ye
upbeat tapir
i feel like by how long you is typing that im about to get an earful
upbeat tapir
oh me dumb :P
ashen warren
One of the issues is that its arms suffer from heavy ''rubberbanding'' issues. If you happen to move too far (and mind you, ''far'' is being generous here) one or more of Prime's limbs will lag behind, and then rejoin the group at extremely high speeds, thus being impossible to consciously dodge. A solution for this would be to force the limbs to be at a minimum distance from each other.
How's this?
hollow shell
Yeah that works
upbeat tapir
makes sense to me
hollow shell
tho "minimum distance from each other"?
Shouldn't it just be focused on Prime's head
ashen warren
Wouldn't that cause them to ''break formation''?
As in, the laser would stay to the right when normally it's the upper left limb
But i get your point anyways
upbeat tapir
nerf health 
hollow shell
Well I don't think the limb's movements are based on the other limbs anyway, I'm pretty sure they're always tryin to keep up with the head. Right?
If one of them is doing some action and causes the "catch up to the head" to get delayed, and therefore cause it to move fast,
ought to just make it more strict about moving towards the head, either cancelling whatever dumb shit it was doing or allowing it to catch up simultaneously with the dumb shit