shink
#suggestions-discussion
zealous ridge
sand umbra
You have to stand still for ages to gain enough stealth for it to be relevant. For over half the game.
zealous ridge
which is why im an advocate for varying the amount of ways you can gain stealth
if we are to stick with the incremental approach
hollow shell
Or you can get hit
twice
if you're wearing Ink Bomb
zealous ridge
yeah, that variation is nice
sand umbra
Nobody wants to stand still for 5 years just to some flashy effect that'll ultimately do about the same damage, if not less, as if you had just kept spamming your weapon and moving around.
umbral mulch
Or you can just get adrenaline and deal more damage anyway
sand umbra
Ink Bomb is nice, but that's not really. solving the issue.
It's moreso just putting a Band-Aid™️ over it and saying it'll be fine.
hollow shell
Mirage Mirror at least lets you run around while you build stealth
but it's so slow it's definitely not worth it
sand umbra
Mhm.
hollow shell
30 seconds to get one strong attack
not nearly enough to compensate for the 30 seconds of lost DPS
queen sail
What if stealth just naturally built but built faster when not moving
Idk i’m bad at game design
umbral mulch
I honestly think stealth should become a little bit of a nohit thing kind of not really™️
zealous ridge
Eh I’m less fond of that because muh difficulty spike
Maybe it encourages dodging
Or rather, rogue as a class can encourage dodging through other means
sand umbra
should I write down the stuff I have in mind, mayhaps
to help convey what I'm trying to pitch a little better
zealous ridge
Go ahead
I’d love to hear your ifeas
Ideas
Personally I’d like to see stealth stay as a resource, but I feel like you differ on that
Less of a resource and more of an alternate phase of attack
sand umbra
mhm
something to set it apart a little more from the other classes, rather than being just another resource
zealous ridge
Eh
sand umbra
I mean, come on, every other custom class in the universe uses a custom resource. Why not change it up a little, try something new?
Sure, it's not guaranteed to work, and there'll be bumpy roads ahead if such a thing happens, but that's really the price you pay when creating something new and unique.
sand umbra
Exhaustion. Inspiration. Rogue stealth itself, in its current form.
zealous ridge
But regardless, do you not think that stealth is distinct enough from your examples?
sand umbra
Still, so many custom classes rely on rising or falling values for their main mechanics...I think there's some untapped potential in instead working with a unique sort of...constant, one that when used offers a somewhat different style of play, which is more rewarding if one has the skill to utilize it.
zealous ridge
I don’t know about you, but I think stealth is a pretty binary resource
You either have full for the strikes, or none due to attacking
The intermediate charging phase is less a resource requirement and more a “recharge” bar
If that makes any sense lmao
sand umbra
The issue moreso lies in the intermediate phase. The stealth charging phase.
zealous ridge
So your solution is to cut out the middleman, so to speak?
sand umbra
It takes entirely too long for it to justify the damage output it provides, especially given how disadvantageous standing still is in a normal Terraria fight.
The solution in mind, essentially, is to replace that with something a bit more...immediate, and giving stealth some more pros and cons to account for that immediate swap.
zealous ridge
Agreed
But I don’t know about that immediate thing
I’d need to sit on that idea
But like, my solution would be to give players more tools to increase their stealth gain
While keeping the intermediate thing
sand umbra
How does it work?
When wearing any rogue armor set, press [Rogue Stealth Swap] to use the power of darkness or some shit to flip in and out of stealth mode. While in stealth mode, generally speaking...
- Movement and jump speed is increased
- Rogue damage and critical strike chance is increased
- Some rogue weapons have special effects when used (these are Stealth Strikes)
- All weapons, especially those with Stealth Strike effects, take considerably longer to use
- Player’s survivability goes down; defense, damage reduction, and i-frames after hit are all decreased
These pros and cons can be adjusted based on the armor or accessories the player is using --- but no matter what, dropping below a particular health threshold (e.g. one-third) or taking a sufficiently large amount of damage in one hit will instantly force you out of stealth.
What can rogue accessories increase, then, if not stealth build rate?
Some ideas, just a few:
- Silencing Sheath directly increases stats in stealth and slightly decreases the cooldown on returning to stealth if you are brought out of it.
- Ink Bomb+ causes you to dodge the first attack you take while in stealth and release a damaging cloud of ink when you do so, but forces you out of stealth for a base of 6 seconds.
- Momentum Capacitor causes you to gain a dash that leaves behind an electrical current and forces you out of stealth for 3 seconds --- any rogue projectile that goes into this 15-second-lifetime current after the user goes into stealth again causes the projectile to deal 8% more damage, travel 20% faster for the remainder of its lifetime, and inflict Electrified or release sparks on enemy hits.
- Psychotic Amulet guarantees critical strikes while in stealth mode (why is this thing a rogue and ranged acc still, exactly?).
- Ruin Medallion decreases the use speed penalty on weapons with stealth strike effects.
My two cents on a rogue stealth rework.
Welcome to "bending Vortex stealth mechanics to one's will: the movie".
umbral mulch
Ink bomb is overpowered already but eh
zealous ridge
Would this be an actual suggestion or?
sand umbra
prrrrrrrrrobably not, if mainly for the reason of "this is entirely too specific to ever get off the ground"
zealous ridge
fair enough
but interesting means to the same ends, if you know what i mean
i can see we both have similar ideas on what's wrong with rogue currently
umbral mulch
If it were to be balanced a little more I wouldn't have a problem with rogue stealth working like that
sand umbra
well obviously this isn't entirely balanced
sand umbra
I came up with this in like ten minutes --- if I do end up pursuing this myself I would pour a lot more time and energy into balancing the whole thing
the point is that it's my attempt to pitch an idea of how to solve the main issue with rogue stealth, which is that its special effects and damage increase don't nearly justify the amount of time it takes to build it
zealous ridge
your solution is interesting, certainly
but it would be more work than it may be worth, considering the forecasted plans of the devs
that is to say, they are treating it more like a resource that can be partially or fully drained through multiple means (sandcloak/spectral veil, momentum capacitor, ruin medallion)
from what i see, at least
would be a big shift in plans, i presume, to just implement this kind of change
sand umbra
yeah
zealous ridge
not to say the idea is bad, of course, i think there's a lot of good in it
sand umbra
if anything, it'll likely be a rework I pursue on my own time
I seriously doubt something like this would ever reach Calamity proper
sand umbra
mhm
and I'll likely end up doing something like this for EE in the very far future
though at the moment, stealth is far from the top of my list of concerns 
zealous ridge
entropy's edge, right? your little project that's a calamity extension?
sand umbra
yeppers peppers
zealous ridge
epic
void kelp
I don’t think you understand how difficult expanding the inventory sounds like
hollow idol
theres a mod that already does it
keen geyser
then just get that mod
ashen warren
So u can only suggest things that are easy to implement.
hollow shell
Naah, things can be hard
as long as it's not the specific hard things that are defined in Don'ts and the rules
The only thing I'll say is that you don't need to suggest that it drop from Plantera
You can just leave it at 'this should probably be post-plant'
sand umbra
(or the specific easy things, for that matter)
gusty geode
Is the idea of there being weapons that are easy to obtain but weaker vs ones that are stronger but harder to get still a thing this mod tries to go for?
queen sail
Half and half
Usually it’s like that but there are some items that are easy to obtain and are very viable and weapons that require (significant) effort to obtain and end up being 
gusty geode
I feel like this might be a bit of a logic leap
But if it is still a goal of the mod
Maybe anti-grind suggestions should be added to the "don'ts" doc
As their goal is often to make items that are deliberately hard to get... easier to get
sand umbra
let's. not
there is a very delicate balance between anti-grind and anti-balance
it's best not to end up, albeit accidentally, discouraging both sides of that line
you can reduce grind without making things unbalanced --- some of what I feel are the greatest QoL-esque changes in the mod's history have come from #suggestions-voting
gusty geode
Fair
sand umbra
see also: Magic Quiver recipe, which was a direct result of a sugg
teal ibex
sand umbra
gusty geode
Really wasn't super confident in that idea
It was just something I thought was worth considering
Since from what I can tell
Most people tend to just
Pretend all the "weak but easy to get" weapons don't exist
But complain when the weapons they do pay attention to are overly tedious to get
teal ibex
for me it always depends upon context
like, magic quiver is required for elemental gauntlet
so imo there should be a more consistent way to obtain it than defiled + spawn galore
hence why i suggested the recipe for that one
but some other optional stuff is a biiiiig shrug to me
teal ibex
no that's an example i'm using for when reducing grind is okay imo
teal ibex
in my opinion
fervent citrus
K
gusty geode
||
||
I was going on about how it feels like people complain about how a lot of stuff is too tedious to grind for
When there are all these other options that require little-to-no grinding to get that nobody pays attention to
And I brought up the idea of adding reduced-grinding suggestions to the don'ts doc
That's how this all started
radiant meadow
add every weapon to the starter bag
fervent citrus
gusty geode
When was the last time you saw someone acknowledge the Stream Gouge
fervent citrus
Stream gouge?
radiant meadow
probably when I was messing with spears
fervent citrus
Its some sort of wep?
radiant meadow
it's a cosmilite bar spear
fervent citrus
Ight imma head to wiki_lookup
teal ibex
now u listen here ben
queen sail
Add Valediction to the Starter Bag.
Reason: Let’s be honest, preboss is a pain in the ass. Adding this would make players’ lives much simpler, easier, and more convenient.
fervent citrus
Lul
teal ibex
Add Magic Quiver to Elemental Gauntlet
becuz i dont like being wrong
fervent citrus
Welp, time to farm for another one
hollow shell
What can I say, it's a common suggestion
gusty geode
This is just proving my point btw
It takes all the time it takes to walk to a Forge to get the Stream Gouge
But nobody even remembers it cuz it's not as strong as other, more grindy options
zenith hazel
I will murder you
hollow shell
Well I mean
You could argue that Stream Gouge is decently hard to obtain
because it requires using your Cosmilite supply
which means
fighting DoG more
teal ibex
Add Cosmilite to the Astral Crate post-DoG.
shut up cosmilite grind complaints goodbye smh
cobalt rose
cosmilite slime when
teal ibex
thanks dom, i can always count on u
gusty geode
Weapon is hard to obtain because making it uses up materials and makes it harder to get other weapons
vocal grotto
anytime bro
fervent citrus
"Cosmilite slimes are falling from the sky!"
hollow shell
Yeah "hard to obtain" isn't the right phrase for it
but
obtaining it
comes at a detriment
hollow shell
m
teal ibex
since cosmilite is a high demand resource anyway
i do unironically like the idea of fishing up cosmilite but something tells me that would NEVER fly with the devs
hollow shell
btw Stream Gouge fires a normal spear projectile instead of a hitscan beam now, right?
radiant meadow
think so?
gusty geode
I remember one time I suggested a "Cosmolite Meteor" to solve the DoG-grind problem because mini-biomes weren't explicitly outlawed
teal ibex
i mean its not really a problem, especially now that sentinels death
gusty geode
Guess on the topic of all this
How about Auric gear that only uses Auric Ore and Yharon Soul Frags
As the "weak but easy to get" alt to Exo-weapons and Auric Tesla armor
Believe I suggested that before actually
hollow shell
spoilers, but based on my understanding of how we're trying to do things,
that may happen
gusty geode
Ooo 
cobalt rose
:pog:
hollow shell
I've always been really confused about what we're trying to do with Exo and Auric
about how they're the same currently but people in the dev server talk about them as if they're separate
¯_(ツ)_/¯
hollow shell
New auric-exclusive content is the logical conclusion
because
there is none of that currently
.. except maybe like Celestial Tracers
(the thing is we don't have any specific auric-exclusive content planned yet)
radiant meadow
patron items at that tier will be pre draedon
like oracle, ataraxia, and dragon pow
hollow shell
Oracle and Dragon Pow aren't going to be exo!?
sand umbra
yeah
hollow shell
Palette-wise sure yeah but everything else is very very exo
radiant meadow
you mean the recipe
radiant meadow
okay but like a lot of weapons at that tier have super complex functions
some not so much like ssv
sand umbra
SSV could honestly benefit from being a little more complex
hollow shell
It really could
sand umbra
seeing as it has 4 main tomes in its recipe yet
hollow shell
It's just fast homing projectiles
radiant meadow
and when it comes down to it, exoblade is super basic if you aren't close and personal
- health scaling
hollow shell
It doesn't even draw from Nuclear Fury
It draws from Fury's ingredient
queen sail
SSV is more or less a Razorblade upgrade but cheesier
sand umbra
hollow shell
yknow what there's a slight theme with exo weapons
each class has a basic bitch option and an overloaded IQ option
Basic bitch SSV to the IQ Vivid Clarity
Basic bitch Photo to the overloaded Heavenly Gale
sand umbra
Basic bitch AotC to
...er
radiant meadow
basic bitch Celestus to basic bitch Celestus
sand umbra
there's a punchline to this I swear
hollow shell
indeed
sand umbra
I can't remember what it is right now but I had a punchline in mind
queen sail
Exoblade is :peepodetective:
sand umbra
yeah let's go with Exoblade
but I do see where you're coming from either way, it's a very consistent theme with endgame weapons
hollow shell
(Offtopic but I like how much communication has seemingly devolved when you're a non-Nitro user or just referring to a meme image without having it
"Exoblade is :peepodetective:" is a very silly and meaningless sentence if you're unfamiliar with the emote and what it is usually used to represent)
sand umbra
mage in particular gets hit hard by that fact
and that makes me pensive
because mage is like. the class for creativity, yet its post-Yharon weps boil down to 1) a dumbed down, beefier Razorblade Typhoon and b) one of the highest IQ weapons in the game
hollow shell
(and that high IQ weapon is Hellwing Staff, except the beams bounce like Shadowbeam Staff, and the beams split like Night's Ray)
sand umbra
(yep)
hollow shell
For a while I always thought Vivid wasn't a very good combination of its constituents, or wasn't complex enough in general
but it does combine those effects pretty well
sand umbra
it does
it's just that the result is extremely situational for when you're actually supposed to use it
tired haven
imho the main "problem" with vivid is unclear aim (which is somewhat of a feature, okay) and the fact you don't really have worms/swarms to fight at that tier
(though to be frank this weapon is kinda crippled even on worms)
sand umbra
random ideas:
- SSV becomes more interesting in some fashion; e.g. make it actually utilize a vortex, justifying its name, or at least it becomes something that actually draws from more than just one of its ingredients (e.g. one of the vortexes in a trio moves slower but yeets out cosmic tentacles at enemies, right-clicking the tome sends out 8 weaker vortexes in a ring around you, etc.)
- Vivid Clarity's beam works like the Shadowbeam Staff and such until the first bounce, at which point it splits into 3 beams that work like current VC and can go absolutely anywhere, only the main beam can split into smaller beams along itself ala Night's Ray
hollow shell
Like, Shadowbeam except it splits into three beams upon reflecting instead of one, and with random reflection angles instead of based on the direction it hits the tile from?
sand umbra
yes
hollow shell
Okay
tbh you gotta throw Plasma Rod into the recipe
It's already used in Aether's Whisper but fuck it, it's easy to get
sand umbra
and there's a lot of new room freed up for potential mats and other recipe adjustments now that Auric Tesla Bars exist
sand umbra
is it that time again
teal ibex
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/263382359397761025/657688427487035402 👍 @sand umbra
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/263382359397761025/657834189311180826 👍 🏁 @teal ibex
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/263382359397761025/657859741959061504 👍 🏁 @teal ibex
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/263382359397761025/657879263902433310 🚫 @swift wadi
results™️
swift wadi
F
sand umbra
why do armored diggers exist, again
teal ibex
they've been around forever and used to be tied to the spawning of DoG iirc
hollow shell
Devs decided it would be better to improve Armored Diggers rather than delete them.
swift wadi
I understand that, thank you for the time though 
sand umbra
intriguing
teal ibex
yeah that was the gist of it. the particularly good point that was made is that calamity isn't particularly diverse in its non-boss encounters, so outright removing what could be a good one is overkill
sand umbra
that's actually a very good argument
teal ibex
ye, i don't suspect armored digger will receive changes any time soon but i do think the right spirit is there about it
sand umbra
I'm all for making them actually relevant and unique, tbf
I still believe moving Remote to being a semi-rare Aureus drop would be good though--
swift wadi
Maybe I'll make another one a different time with changes I'd like to see done to it
teal ibex
perhaps 
swift wadi
But that's for a different day
It's the dev's choice but I still appreciate the time they took looking at it and hope that it got the thought of changing the Armored Digger in their mind
teal ibex
my gut reaction to "make armored diggers better" is having it drop a themed class weapon when you kill it so it's less of a "oh god here's this thing again" and more of a "hmm there's a small chance i could get something spicy out of this"
swift wadi
Lead Wizard is meant to be that item aint it?
hollow shell
Or you could make it a goldmine of usually difficult to farm resources, like Ravager
so you're like "ooo boy an Armored Digger yay" instead of "fuck"
teal ibex
lead wizard is just ranged tho
i mean a drop for each class
also ye resources could be p rad
sand umbra
thought:
Armored Diggers drop stuff that would normally be reserved for Mech drops
radiant meadow
might want to put a 🏁 on those crate suggestions
hollow shell
Like, Hallowed Bars? Or new shit?
radiant meadow
I just haven't committed it yet because boss checklist is bruh
sand umbra
e.g. Hallowed Bars god it feels so weird saying they drop those after all the time I've spent working on EE
hollow shell
Armored Diggers drop Luminite post ML
teal ibex
the two i just posted, ben?
hollow shell
(which is actually something I suggested in the dev server)
sand umbra
HONESTLY
swift wadi
What if armored digger scaled?
radiant meadow
and the chlorophyte in jungle crates one too, but ye those two
sand umbra
literally just make Armored Diggers your one-stop shop for a sudden jackpot of useful resources
queen sail
Oh i just noticed
queen sail
My fargo crates support reached 90
queen sail
We are close to being vored by Terry
radiant meadow
I think it's post clone/plant
queen sail
teal ibex
tenebris/planty mush? was that one added or nah?
radiant meadow
I was going to
but then I got distracted by boss checklist memes
it's on my todo list
civic pond
as great as that'd be
tepid root
fargo souls
hollow shell
ah fuck I didn't even notice
@ashen warren That sentence you had before about items becoming more of an issue at that point in the game was a good sentence, you shoulda kept it
keen geyser
wholeheartedly agree with @supple lodge
i think it's kind of annoying that the effects don't have at least a couple more slots
tired haven
If it wasn't vanilla hardcoded mess I believe it would have been already changed by half the mods
karmic stone
I've only seen 2 mods thus far that do this, and only 1 actually works 
teal ibex
yeah there's already an existing mod for buff slots that works fine
so i don't really see the necessity of calamity adding said feature
cobalt rose
honestly, i feel like the buff cap kinda adds a bit of balancing, not letting you give yourself a shitton of buffs and become overpowered
hollow shell
Well I mean
the buff cap has been the reason why we haven't included buffs as indicators for several things in the past
keen geyser
fair
hollow shell
It would help development somewhat if we weren't capped
ashen warren
special row of buff slots that's actually for indicators
impossible to code, of course
cobalt rose
i only really see a need for a potion/consumable buff cap.
keen geyser
yeah, but having it seperate from debuffs imo
cobalt rose
exactly.
sand umbra
better idea:
kill NPC buff cap
so that all those weapons inflicting fifty debuffs in late-game can actually have their full effect, pitiful as that combined debuff effect may be
hollow shell
That's a related issue but not directly related
so I wouldn't say "better idea" as much as I would say "also"
sand umbra
eh, semantics
you get the idea
the NPC buff cap is even worse because it tops off at not 22
but five, that's right, 5
hearty yew
@fast monolith funny you say that, i just added a multi-pet item. i'll leave you guessing as to what it is!
keen geyser
o
fast monolith
B ru h
ashen warren
fuck
keen geyser
Siren leviathan
ashen warren
you crushed my dreams
swift wadi
there should be a Polter themed hook tbh
hollow idol
I already have the sprites for one too 
tepid root
when do we get a hook better than bat hook tbh
random flume
hitscan hook when......
worthy fiber
hook that fires whenever you get hit
swift wadi
oh good
ashen warren
or rather it can drag the projectile to you
worthy fiber
pogo hook which pushes you away
ashen warren
hook that disjoints your shoulder
worthy fiber
hook which instead fires a clinging waypoint to teleport to
ashen warren
that's a portal gun
tired haven
Or RoD?
ashen warren
delayed RoD sounds too high iq for me
ashen warren
more like NR because RoD teleports without conserving velocity iirc
tired haven
Hmm
Pretty sure rod does conserve velocity too
ashen warren
hmm
hoary hinge
rod does conserve velocity
though calling bat hook similar to RoD is silly since it can't go through projectiles like moonlord deathray so you can't do the thhing you do with RoD which is escape nasty situations
also it has limited range
RoD's range is limited by how big of a monitor you have
opal barn
How are summoner armors not viable lmao
hollow saffron
tepid root
im so fucking confused
green pumice
summoner is perfectly viable wtf
you already get way too many slots from all the statis shit
karmic stone
Br most minion slots come from accs
And Although it's a pain to sacrifice slots to these (mostly Statis shit ^) i'ts still perfectly viable
tepid root
if you're not using any summoner accessories i have nothing to say
radiant meadow
make each statis acc give +10 minion slots and call it a day 
green pumice
tepid root
opal barn
tldr another bad suggestion that doesn't break rules so it has to stay
karmic stone
tepid root
sad
pliant bone
god
queen sail
I can’t tell if he believes summoner is legitimately bad or his idea of summoner being bad is “I don’t feel like a god enough”
void kelp
@frozen stump why do you think minion slots are the only thing making summoner viable?
...and not, you know, the damage bonuses and all
frozen stump
Im just saying that the amount of minion slots you get from calamity armor sets are disproportionate compared to the rest of the game. +2 for ataxia compared to +6 for spooky just doesn't make sense to me
I get that the defense is higher, but even the damage bonuses pale in comparison to full summoner sets
If you disagree, I'd like to hear the counterarguement, just wanna be informed
frail mantle
summon slots aren't everything
vanilla Summon armors grant more raw summon damage bonuses and minion slots than Calamity armors, while Calamity summon armors have other set bonuses in exchange, like the Daedalus crystal or the Tarragon kill aura
gritty flower
Okay, I played a Summoner on my last playthrough, the Calamity armors are often not as good as the Vanilla sets (though, I am a Vanilla oriented person) but, the Calamity sets often add something that allows for better survival if you are needing to focus on something else (like mining), I like the Calamity sets more because they add a sense of security when your summons are doing who knows what. Just something to protect you.
keen geyser
I feel like summoner is fine mid-late hardmode
early game is hell though, as it should be
molten iris
why should early game summoner be hell when every other class gets their desirables easily?
ashen warren
That summoner suggestion is a really good meme
molten iris
True
quartz hare
False
pliant bone
Please also note that certain minions doesnt perform as much better if the number of it increases rather than a damage bonus.
These mostly applies to minions that induces a lot of iframes like the Entropy Vigil and Elemental Axes
molten iris
A way to make summoner a bit more fun would be to make a weapon that allows you to deal damage instead of minions but that would also go against summoner but still
tepid root
i think that could be considered a good summoner weapon if done right tbh
molten iris
Thats what i think as well but its also a very hard suggest
frozen stump
That reminds me of Thorium, and how they do certain weapons. It rly helped my playthrough up to moonlord
shell lynx
What about a summon that did more damage the more empty minion slots you have?
frozen stump
That kinda goes against the whole thing about less summon slots =/= bad
but I will say that would be neat
frozen stump
oh dang- I have 16 pre-providence
devout seal
@raven patrol No suggesting bosses, and Yharim's already planned.
fervent citrus
@raven patrol dont type anything, well explain
placid moth
@raven patrol a truly amazing and insightful suggestion
i am surprised no one bothered to think of that before
placid moth
is this guy actually receiving our ping
cyan lagoon
You guys seriously need to ping a mod when stuff like this arises
placid moth
oh.
versed mica
I’m not gonna lie this is up there with the strangest things I have seen in suggestion discussion
ashen warren
i missed something didn't i
wooden wedge
Isn't yharim planned?
hollow shell
Of course he is
versed mica
I’m certain deleted messages exist above
versed mica
Which would give more context to why there are three pings
queen sail
How low iq must you be to not consider that maybe he’s not done yet
hollow shell
I would add it to Frequently Suggested in the Don'ts
but boss suggestions are already not allowed, and people like these aren't reading the Don'ts doc anyway...
void kelp
unfortunately 
queen sail
He’s still typing
versed mica
I’m not going to lie I just read the pins on suggestions
And I’m happy I never suggested anything
tepid root
fear
versed mica
Well fuck
hollow shell
@raven patrol Please see the three pings above.
versed mica
He did it
wooden wedge
God
left crest
epic sugma
queen sail
versed mica
versed mica
Anyone have any fun suggestions we can discuss right now?
cyan lagoon
The three pings are enough for him to see what went wrong, so there is no reason to add on.
hollow shell
... yeah
ashen warren
for me i think it's more of a lucky drop so i have to farm less
hollow shell
Well it has as much of a chance to drop as two of its ingredients
(the other being the Angler Earring, slightly more likely)
Except in Expert Mode+
where it's less likely
which it should be
in all modes
Oh actually nevermind that's just outdated info, it's always the same as the others
ashen warren
hm
cyan lagoon
Its already lazy enough
swift bison
karmic stone
Yharim boss suggestion I think
sand umbra
Welcome to Terraria
Grind your ass off or die
that's a wonky way to spell Fargo's Soul Mod
queen sail
terse sundial
@raven patrol no boss suggestions
opal barn
You were told this already dude
I'm going to put this as a normal warn instead of a verbal one now
raven patrol
k
hollow shell
Good lord...
void kelp
was that three attempts,
elder sparrow
They say that if you try hard enough you can accomplish anything
cyan lagoon
Oh well
Discussion is done with, again
I don't want it to become a shit slinging contest
queen sail
Rework the Giant Squid...like, the entire thing.
Reason: Honestly, the Giant Squid in itself was always pretty weird. Giant Squids are presented in real life as fast, cunning, and nimble predators...and in-game they can’t even fit through a door. It poses a significantly less threat than most Abyss mobs because its sprite/hitbox is as tall as King Slime’s. Its movement isn’t interesting either, only dashing in one direction briefly, not even turning like most squids.
tl;dr Make the Giant Squid more interesting, because right now it’s an easily cheesable 20 blocks high pillar labelled as an enemy.
ashen warren
can i make a weapon suggestion? 🤔
ruby cobalt
depends on what it is
ashen warren
aw
frank stratus
ashen warren
well i was thinking of a rogue weapon Post Aureus
'Star Feathers' i called it
literally a reference to someone in LoL
graceful stream
Oh
ashen warren
eh
graceful stream
Read the suggestion don'ts doc
queen sail
Because none of them get in
karmic stone
They used to be a don'tn't, but none got in and it just flooded suggs
queen sail
That and some people had no real reason to suggest them anyways
karmic stone
Ye, very poor reasoning
literally a reference to someone in LoL
Like reference for the sake of reference
queen sail
Also why bring in an enemy that’s fundamentally different than the one I was talking about
void kelp
a lot of them might’ve had some cool designs and sprites, but they never got in and often were for reasons like “haha it’s a reference”
karmic stone
Nowadays "maybe a weapon in this tier because this class is lacking" is as far as you can go
queen sail
Summon usually
void kelp
note that subclasses do not count
queen sail
Muh launcher playthrough
karmic stone
"but muh spear only run :(((((("
queen sail
karmic stone
sand umbra
b-but spiderrrrerr!! my rocket launchers only masodeath infernum fun hyper mode playthrough is at stake!!1!one! mean! :(
karmic stone
Die
queen sail
Anyways imm gonna repost that giant squid sugma
sand umbra
void kelp
I’m for changing the squid, yes
karmic stone
Ye I'd star that
queen sail
Seriously, this enemy is a joke
Rework the Giant Squid...like, the entire thing.
Reason: Honestly, the Giant Squid in itself was always pretty weird. Giant Squids are presented in real life as fast, cunning, and nimble predators...and in-game they can’t even fit through a door. It poses a significantly less threat than most Abyss mobs because its sprite/hitbox is as tall as King Slime’s. Its movement isn’t interesting either, only dashing in one direction briefly, not even turning like most squids.
tl;dr Make the Giant Squid more interesting, because right now it’s an easily cheesable 20 blocks high pillar labelled as an enemy.
void kelp
especially since its supposed to be an abyss miniboss
queen sail
Bruh no
karmic stone
Other than v-word memes which are not even fun it doesn't have much going for it
queen sail
That’s colossal
You memer
I’m talking about the 20 ft tall abyss monster that can’t fit through a door
Or anything for that matter
void kelp
Wait is that the long boy squid not the big white fella squid
karmic stone
e
queen sail
Long boy squid
karmic stone
That's even worse actually
queen sail
Aka “Go inside an Abyss house and laugh your ass off for an entire minute as it tries to kill you”
Lemme just post it in suggs so that it doesn’t get washed out constantly
ashen warren
giant squid ignores tiles. done ✅
quick ice
wait actually?
ashen warren
not actually
quick ice
the simple solution is to remove the 2 Longer Arms from the sprite
those are what traps it most often
karmic stone
Giant Squid now has many special 2000 frame animations for going trough small gaps .- Done ✅
void kelp
just let it pass through blocks
quick ice
no cause then they'll become a serious nuissance
if that happens they should be limited to Layer 3 since that's to much for Layer 2
karmic stone
Shouldn't they become one though
Most of layer 3+ enemies already go trough blocks, but they're not cucked by knockback memes, so this should balance it out
quick ice
Layer 3 has 3 enemies that are notable to it
Mirage Jelly, Colossal Squid and Eidolist (I never find them in Layer 4)
only 2 of them go through blocks and 1 of them is a pointless enemy that if it was removed, would never be noticed
Also, here's a comparison between the Giant Squid with and without arms
the sprite is significantly smaller, and doing this would allow it to be more than an easily killable door between Abyss islands
void kelp
let the arms not count as part of the hitbox
quick ice
I suggested that a while ago, but nothing ever happened with it since it never got 90 ⭐s
and it'd be easier to remove them from the sprite all together
void kelp
probably because those primary tentacles are an essential bodily component and removing it ignores the anatomy
quick ice
it's a video game mod, and plenty of other Abyss enemies differ from their real-life/video game counterparts
void kelp
true. but squids’ primary tentacles are what make them squids so to me it looks v silly
karmic stone
and it'd be easier to remove them from the sprite all together
How so?
sand umbra
if we're going to argue about anatomy can anyone explain how the Laserfish works to me
no? alright, argument over, next point of discussion
quick ice
to remove the tentacles, you just go in the Spritesheet and remove them
easy peasy, the alternative is coding
however I agree that the hitbox change would be an ideal option, I just don't see it happening since the suggestion is for something that's not something most people care about
queen sail
Y’all are discussing anatomy when I literally just want this one enemy to not be a joke in a biome where everything presents a threat in some way
quick ice
Mirage Jelly is less threatening than the Giant Squid
sand umbra
wrong
queen sail
Mirage Jelly is not an enemy
sand umbra
Mirage Jellies can actually hit you
karmic stone
Electrified is a bitch
sand umbra
queen sail
It’s honestly more or less a glorified hazard
quick ice
Mirage Jellys also make no effort to attack you
sand umbra
but they can hit you
quick ice
fair
queen sail
It’s like a gordo
karmic stone
KIRBY
bitter topaz
mirage jellies aren't hostiles
they're intended to be glorified hazards
karmic stone
Ahem, yes
sand umbra
they ignore tiles and thus there's nothing keeping them from a pretty tough hit on you if you don't steer clear
so even though they aren't a conventional enemy, they are still a threat
karmic stone
Whenever you wanna farm them you get annoyed by most dangerous shit and get hit by them, then they teleport and you have to move quickly so they don't despawn but electrified memes
Squids just up and die
quick ice
they're to rare for a hazard
sand umbra
Giant Squids are as tall as the average small NPC hotel for Chrysler's sake 
quick ice
I find more minibosses than I do mirage Jellies
sand umbra
and they don't ignore tiles, which causes them to be very easily stuck on the various small passages that often dot the abyssal depths
quick ice
not combined mind you, just more of any miniboss than Mirage Jellies
yeah the Giant Squids are too tall and the legs should be cut from their hitbox in an ideal world
they could also do with a buff since they're weaker than the Luminious Corvina, in HP, who's found in higher layers than the Squid
green pumice
first of all, who even wastes their time looking for fungal symbiote unless fargo
sure it can shred that boss
but theres easier options that people usually take
void kelp
true melee memes be like
green pumice
"lol"
void kelp
although claws and symbiote are super powerful, try using them against like, skeletron
you’ll also have to be right next to the enemy
night cradle
I doubt it can kill them that easily, without losing a percentage of your own health
yeah, as spider said, you need to be basically inside the enemy to use them
void kelp
true melee ends up being very high risk high reward in that sense
night cradle
and it works pretty much on crabulon and desert scourge because the first is a stationary boss, and the latter is a worm, which ultimately makes it... pretty much vulnerable to everything
first boss in progression and a worm, in fact
void kelp
you’ll be hit several times as you claw the worm to shreds and honestly there’s no need to nerf if it’s only relevant against DS
night cradle
yeah
if it would be, let's say, like Titanium armor set
where there is no risk high reward, then yes, there would be a need to nerf it
but it takes a risk, a risk of dying in the process of facetanking
and it's not really low, with bosses other than DS
teal ibex
there's really two ways to solve this supposed issue
either you nerf fungal symbiote, an essential true melee accessory for a massive stretch of the game, so that it's not too good against two very simple pre-hardmode bosses
or you nerf mandible claws so that they are literally just wasted inventory space
void kelp
it could work on EoW too but you’ll be dying real fast; I know this for a facts thanks to my true melee run
teal ibex
i'd rather there just be a setup that can kill these bosses quickly if you're willing to actually put in the effort lol
void kelp
honestly finding the symbiote isa already an effort
teal ibex
a significant one at that
night cradle
yup
green pumice
~~that's what i said 
~~
median cove
When I was exploring caves, I found the shrine with Fungal Symbiote in 10 minutes time
karmic stone
Good for you
grizzled stone
It's really all up to good world generation
void kelp
yeah, that’s a very rng thing but try that same setup that melted DS and Crab on EoW tbh
hollow shell
This is a good idea.
Pets should be the aesthetic pets
Light Pets should be the effect pets
hearty yew
^ This could the the light pet which provides no light
But instead does Something Else
swift wadi
But my Siren :(
ashen warren
^
carmine island
Yeah not worth losing the siren especially in single player
ashen warren
siren is life
hollow shell
Well that's the balance
Do you value full health respawns, or light?
Player gets to choose
rather than having both for free
swift wadi
I agree to an extent, honestly I feel like having it be an equipable pet that also works in the inventory without the pet would be better, it's not like spawning with full hp is that big of a thing
Saves you like 5 gold
carmine island
Rev nurse prices T_T
grizzled stone
Or just wait, that works too
molten iris
maybe adding other bonuses to pets would make it easier for players to choose different pets?
tired haven
Then it would require to add bonuses to every single one, and the "pet" part will go away as lots of people would just pick whatever gives better boost
hollow shell
I do feel like normal pets should be entirely aesthetic
queen sail
Speaking of siren
hollow shell
Light pets can get effects, even if not light
queen sail
Rip siren
hollow shell
Huh
molten iris
dyes tend to mess up my light pets
molten iris
i do agree on that pets should be aesthetics only though.
tired haven
Light pets could get side effects (in vanilla magic lantern has ore highlight for example), but regular pets should indeed stay aesthetics only
Simpliest fix could be giving hermit's box some light 
molten iris
i mean whats the point of nurse being more expensive if a pet just take away 70% of the intended mechanic
tired haven
So the other 30 don't stay the big circus of cheesing ml when staying still (kinda)
But yeah, I guess
queen sail
Because people use the nurse during boss fights too
sand umbra
it's basically so that if you do nurse cheese, it takes a fatter chunk outta your wallet to do it later-game
which is good because the Nurse somehow never ups her prices to account for the player getting more and more money in vanilla
tired haven
You could say it scales price from the max hp you lose... but that's laughable difference
sand umbra
byeah
gusty geode
Scale exponentially
slow spruce
If you wanted to put something on regular pets besides aesthetic just make it so you can modify it. Sharp Wyvern and whatnot
radiant meadow
Boss Checklist support is done
it's also was a fuck ton of work I did not anticipate 
tepid root
epic
void kelp
yay go ben
tepid root
is that considered a dont or
tired haven
Not really, it may fall under the extensive work tho
ashen warren
all minibosses have the same track
tired haven
It won't fit a fair bit of them then
ashen warren
just use stained brutal calamity for every boss/miniboss smh
tired haven
Jokes on you, cnid isn't miniboss 
tepid root
fuck
ashen warren
make piggy a miniboss it has the hp of like 3 cnidrions
granite owl
you can kill ds easily with basically everything
ashen warren
desert scourge, king slime, guardians are the three bosses meant to be cheesed to hell iirc
tired haven
Not king slime now
unless walking to the side is considered cheesing, which can be
ashen warren
aight
sand umbra
even then though
DS in particular is just
DS
daily reminder that this boss dies in ten seconds if that to grenades
next up you gonna tell me you wanna nerf grenades too
teal ibex
Nerf Grenade
It can kill the boss.
sand umbra
teal ibex
one of these days i'm gonna accidentally post the meme suggestion and get warned
ashen warren
can't you just delete it right after as a honest mistake
or is it still a big no no
ashen warren
sand umbra
tired haven
tepid root
🏁
gritty flower
Nerf Slimes
Even in the best Armor with like 200 Defense they still do 1 damage just like all the bosses, seriously overpowered
radiant meadow
we'll get there eventually
swift wadi
Get their what?
hallow kraken
sug: nerf
can kill
gritty flower
Basically 
hallow kraken
wait no don’t nerf if nerf not op and I wanna be op that’s why I play clamadity
grizzled stone
Or even better
Suggestion: buff
Reason: can't kill enough
gritty flower
bUfF YhARon, He’S tOo eASy
zenith hazel
ok enough with the buff/nerf bs, get back to actually discussing suggestions please.
molten iris
Can someone with more iq than me suggest a good summoner weapon that lets you deal direct damage?
placid moth
what
frail mantle
Specific Item suggestions are banned
hallow kraken
Define direct damage
molten iris
i mean as in a summoner subclass weapon that lets you the character deal damage
queen sail
You can suggest a summon weapon that lets you deal direct damage but literally just that much
No more specific than that
hallow kraken
wouldn’t that remove the downside of summoning
frail mantle
ye "add an active summon weapon" is about as specific as you can get
hallow kraken
Isn’t summoning supposed to be a class about not dealing active damage
frail mantle
it is
molten iris
i just have a really bad time with the summoner A.I when it comes to the bosses
potent veldt
I remember Thorium has a ton of active summoner stuff
Dont know if I like it much though
hallow kraken
Adding direct damage summon weapons would just turn the class into mage or something
queen sail
The thing about having weapons for summoners where they can deal direct damage completes the meta that every class is just bootleg ranged
Which is
sand umbra
every class was doomed to be bootleg ranger from the start
I'm sorry to break this to you
queen sail
:preech:
hallow kraken
The point of summoning is to have friends and deal with their AIs
sand umbra
yeah
the point is to have a bunch of those friends you can only tolerate and have them do all the dirty work for none of the recognition
gritty flower
Stardust Dragon is good boi
placid moth
sandnados AI could eat a bunch of shit before .105 iirc
loud steeple
Wait,what about a stationary summon that shoots something whenever you click/hold down click to where ever your mouse is?
That would be really dope in my opinion
loud steeple
It would be a summon but you also have some interaction with it
placid moth
let the ai do it
loud steeple
You won't have to end up using it
Its like the ohhh I can use it if I want type deal
ashen warren
Why does it need a summon item
Its so damn common
It wont even take 3 irl minutes for 1 ??? to spawn
placid girder
mutant mod already has a summon for it
loud steeple
Saying ( x mod has x for x ) doesn't fix much
fervent citrus
I was gonna write a suggestion, but then i thought it would be wise to ask whether its a good one here first
hallow kraken
Great idea
fervent citrus
Everytime DoG deals contact dmg, your chat fills up with words instantly
hallow kraken
Let’s hear it
grizzled stone
I think it's already been suggested before iirc
zealous ridge
I think that has been suggested some time ago yeah
fervent citrus
Oh, k
zealous ridge
Granted, it’s a fair suggestion
fervent citrus
Would be nice if a suggestion would be underlined or smth if it was approved by the modders
hallow kraken
Ah, so like this guy’s suggestion
zealous ridge
fervent citrus
:bruh-1:
zealous ridge
Literally your suggestion
fervent citrus
Uuh, i dont remember sending that, uhh...
zealous ridge
grizzled stone
fervent citrus
zealous ridge
Very good
wooden wigeon
search function
zealous ridge
Well regardless
fervent citrus
Oh
zealous ridge
Good suggestion
fervent citrus
I want to evaporate rn
hollow shell
@mystic sandal Could at least mention Shadethrower
mystic sandal
thing is, shadethrower is dropped by hive mind
distant gyro
subclass suggestion #1240120
hollow shell
mystic sandal
the problem isn't the crimson/corruption
the problem is the fact that it's the hive mind
you should be ready to fight the hive mind after eater of worlds
so you have two options
you can either have a hard time fighting off enemies in the brimstone crag trying to get a drizzlefish, or go through the entire game up to hive mind with the spark spreader
graceful stream
it's actually subsubclass suggestion
hollow shell
(I could have sworn we pinned or Don'ted the subclass thing in the past)
also no it's just a normal subclass
hollow shell
@queen delta That last sentence isn't the best reasoning, considering it's so late in the game. You'd expect it to be harder than it was before
karmic stone
☑️
o, when was this other sugg
hollow shell
But I agree very much
queen delta
pretty sure the enemies get buffed in speed as well
at least pumpking and ice queen does
hollow shell
You're right, didn't know about that.
distant gyro
@graceful stream Flamethrower is probably classified as 'Others' in vanilla Terraria due to there only being a staggering 2 flamethrowers out of 150 ranged weapons or sth
In Calamity, Flamethrower is definitely changed to be a Subclass with its own Shroomite Helmet and 14 extra flamethrowers
so no; flamethrower is not a sub-sub
queen delta
what subclass would a flamethrower be the subclass of anyways?
hollow shell
@mystic sandal But still, you should mention Shadethrower even if you disagree with it being a valid option, like you did with the other two
queen delta
ah
hollow shell
I think it's less that it's a subclass of a subclass
and more so sub that it deserves more than one "sub"
cuz, flamethrowers aren't buffed by the gun shroomite
Stake Launchers could be a real subsubclass of ranged
a subclass of bows
(just 1 weapon in vanilla, and Calamity adds 1 more)
distant gyro
apparently repeaters are repeaters and bows are bows
queen delta
oh, looks like there was a suggestion about a month ago thats pretty much this, and was approved by devs as well, so ill delete the suggestion
gusty geode
You know what subsubclass deserves attention?
Styngers or whatever that thing Golem drops is called
Also something something Summoner
vocal grotto
Isn't that kinda a one-time thing tho?
gusty geode
Weren't Flamethrowers originally a one-time thing?
hollow shell
two-time thing :P
distant gyro
flamethrowers don't belong to any subclass apparently
mystic sandal
there were two flamethrowers?
distant gyro
elf melter
vocal grotto
Oh, it's used again? Huh.
mystic sandal
oh
gusty geode
Cool
hollow shell
Alright.
Now that CAT's suggestion is valid cuz there's no pins or rules or Don'ts against the subclass topic...
Should we make one now?
distant gyro
I think there should be a don't against the subclass topic
gusty geode
Maybe like a blacklist
So subclasses that actually need attention are still valid
mystic sandal
yeah, honestly i was just making the suggestion because i was kind of disappointed in the spark spreader
distant gyro
due to
- Excess of them are being made
- The fact that subclass-runs are only self-imposed challenges
gusty geode
Styngers and rockets, to name 2
mystic sandal
it's best to ban the subclass thing in my eyes, but i don't know much
tired haven
There are not really subclasses that are valid for that
graceful stream
Are sentries a sub?
mystic sandal
i guess it depends on what sentry you're talking about
distant gyro
vanilla only introduces the launcher subclass after plantera so what could you do
hollow shell
Yeah the big thing was that any given subclass need not be viable in all stages of the game
mystic sandal
if it's the old one army type sentry, i'd say so
if it's the sun staff type sentry, it's kind of in the middle
tired haven
If somebody calls sentries a subclass unironically I'd consume their dark soul
hollow shell
Because, as Altix said, subclass-only runs are self-imposed challenges, and Calamity shouldn't bend to allow them or make them any easier
distant gyro
sun staff is actually a minion since it consumes a minion slot and not a sentry slot afaik
tired haven
Yes
hollow shell
There are a ton of ranged weapons in early game that you can use instead of flamethrowers
tired haven
It's probably best to ban
Imagine if melee becomes truly complete
We would be able to complete a playthrough with:
Swords. Shortswords. "Swing"swords. Spears. Yoyos. Flails. Boomerangs. Spinning Staves. And possibly even more variations of mentioned types
tired haven
Octodad mvp obv
mystic sandal
welcome to my spinning staves playthrough
we have like 2 weapons to choose from, i really shouldn't have done this
mystic sandal
hey calamity where's a spinning staff for literally every single enemy in the game
hollow shell
I'll pop it into the Don'ts
mystic sandal
should i delete the suggestion i made now that it's a don't?
mystic sandal
alright
hollow shell
You're the last one allowed :P
mystic sandal
i am the last survivor
also crab i can't believe you forgot to mention baghnahks or whatever they're called
distant gyro
swinging claws subsubclass
tired haven
Claws are swords but yeah I have sinned
vocal grotto
And the first to start, yoyos.
mystic sandal
mandible swinging claws subsubsubclass
hollow shell
Don't made.
gusty geode
What even is a spinner
hollow shell
You use it to cure ADHD
zealous ridge
Mmmmmmm
I like the suggestion, I just don’t think it would be implemented in a timely fashion currently, Skoores
rugged mist
isn't a yharim's army invasion in the don'ts document
zealous ridge
That too
hollow shell
@supple lodge I believe that falls under the "adding a new event" Don't
also the Yharim's Army frequently suggested Don't
We're adding more unique content to the events in a later update.
It's not a whole new event, but it's somethin' more.
zealous ridge
Something more as in, more to the currently sparse unique content added by the events currently?
hollow shell
Yes "more unique content" as in more unique content.
hollow shell
more unique content?
distant gyro
just something interesting
queen sail
Not “Bass boosted stats so they’re harder™ despite stat boosts being meme”
zealous ridge
I thought you may have meant more than a new event
queen sail
Also I mean like
hollow shell
ah
zealous ridge
Like something different but related
queen sail
Revamp every enemy at least
zealous ridge
queen sail
Or add new drops
queen sail
Hell just the minibosses even
Anything except “the same event but everything smacks you for half your health despite wielding armor made of cosmic steel”
hollow shell
You'll see when it comes around
It's all planned out, definitely coming some time in the future
s'just a matter of when
queen sail
But’s it’s not here right now rover, which means it’ll never come
Which means calamity forever stinky
||/s||
zealous ridge
Actually had written up an idea where the moon events had upgradeable counterparts rather than just being the event
queen delta
what if we just made a new set of events that dropped nightmare fuel/endo energy and left the pumpkin/frost moon behind
queen sail
Ive been ’d
vocal grotto
We could try. But that would be REALLY draining in terms of content demand tbh
zealous ridge
What I was thinking, although it would be more content heavy
queen sail
I mean the idea of reusing an event is fine but, like
At least make it interesting instead of a rehash
tired haven
It will take like 5 original enemies and 1 original miniboss to make a barebone single event
queen delta
I think we're at the point where the bar is set high enough for a new event
zealous ridge
Always something to keep in mind is the demand of the community vs the supply to meet that demand from devs
queen sail
Economics 200
I think the bare minimum is, like
The minibosses of both events getting revamped post dog
You do just pumpking and ice queen it’s still the same issue except “hey here’s this one new cool thing”
carmine linden
zealous ridge
But like there was just a suggestion that asked for a very similar thing
carmine linden
yep
zealous ridge
carmine linden
Well crap
ashen warren
bruh
gusty geode
Weren't original enemies planned for the buffed moons at some point
frail mantle
how long is the list so far
hollow shell
5 now
and I started it 5 days ago
1 a day keeps the doctor away
frail mantle
karmic stone
Dude that stars all suggs within 2 seconds no matter what they are
hollow shell
I don't knock him for that.
But I do knock him for ding-dong ditching the suggestions channel
gritty flower
Lmao
hollow shell
This is a fair point, though
Would be good to have some renewable source of Sulphurous Sand, considering it's not as prevalent as other blocks in the world
(although crafting so many Seafood and fighting AS so many times that you completely eradicate the entire sea is somewhat unlikely)
Not only fighting, but losing
Because you can buy Seafood from Amidias after you beat him once
frail mantle
maybe instead of increasing AS spawn rate, make a Mouthwash Sea enemy drop Sulphurous Sand so it's renewable
versed mica
Yeah
hollow shell
Could just
throw some in the Catfish
versed mica
I think the problem with AS brings us to a larger issue
About renewable resources
Even though the answer is just new world in my opinion
It’s an interesting problem
hollow shell
New world is always the emergency option if you somehow screw yourself
versed mica
Yeah
hollow shell
It's hard to screw yourself without trying, though
versed mica
But should that be the only solution l
sand umbra
it's also hard to screw over your Abyss hard enough to not have any Tenebris without trying
(read: any world genned without Calamity cannot have an Abyss and thus cannot have Tenebris)