yeah with all due respect
Kelv Cat is basically built for deleting AS and Desu
#suggestions-discussion
sand umbra
it's just a natural side effect of how it works
zenith hazel
maybe give the worms resist to kelvin specifically?
sand umbra
they already have it
zenith hazel
because honestly, they should last at least 45 seconds
sand umbra
keep in mind that Cursed Darts and Spear of Paleolith can both reasonably get about a minute
and neither of those are Revengeance-locked
or require a large amount of farming
zenith hazel
yeah a minute’s fine enough, but we’re essentially talking about a weapon that trivializes a higher difficulty fight
lost agate
Thats rev locked
sand umbra
it's a higher-difficulty weapon that trivializes a higher-difficulty fight
makes sense to me
lost agate
And is the apoth of cryo
zenith hazel
I just feel like they should last a bit longer, that’s my 2 cents on it
lost agate
Thats the deal with hard to get weapon
They either hit hard or suck and nobody farms for them
zenith hazel
fair point
lost agate
Mind you, you will only get it on 2/4 difficulty mode if you dont mode changing mid pt
sand umbra
you need a reason to pick the weapon that's Rev-locked over, say, the weapons that can already speedkill Destroyer by default (which is a much-favored thing, largely from the old days of Rev+ Destroyer)
lost agate
I literally just explained this
sand umbra
that's the power of an infinitely-piercing boomerang that summons 8 projectiles every time it hits something
sand umbra
bruh
proven tide
so it's good but not stupid broken in some areas just to justify being alright in other areas
fervent zealot
it's almost like something that pierces to an insane degree and also spits projectiles obliterates multi segmented or big bosses
sand umbra
that makes no sense though
lost agate
Its a patreon item so go figure
sand umbra
because then there's nothing to give it power that it can lord over Spear of Paleolith and Cursed Darts, to name a couple examples
if there isn't a reason to pick a weapon from a higher difficulty that requires more farming than existing options
people will not go for it
proven tide
no, no, i'm not saying make it mediocre
lost agate
The only way kelvin is getting nerfed on those two is if paleo and darts do too 
To put it bluntly
sand umbra
do not touch my darts
proven tide
owo
lost agate
And 45 seconds its still a fast fight all things considered
fervent zealot
a minute is still a pretty fast fight
lost agate
Yes
fervent zealot
guess you gotta nerf darts and paleo then 😔
sand umbra
see, the reason I'm against that is like
realistically, what the hell else are you going to use either of those weapons for
they're not particularly fantastic against the other mech-tier bosses aside from the obvious (AS)
and even then, AS is shorter than Desu by an enormous margin and can consistently fly, so you won't even really get similar results unless you're a god at zigzagging in straight lines
proven tide
list of every weapon nerf/buff
bruh
@warm tinsel suggestion chaining and also #changelogs exists
ashen warren
smh you could also just tell them in this channel with a ping
warm tinsel
Not really a chain but sure I'll delete
hollow shell
Yeah the changelogs channel's purpose is kinda that
warm tinsel
Yeah, but KC got nerfed already
proven tide
not really a chain
hollow shell
It wasn't a chain as in it did not offer something on the same topic as the suggestion prior
proven tide
bro the whole point of banning 'suggestion chains' is so that suggestions that include terms that force the reader to read unrelated suggestions aren't posted
hollow shell
It did mention the prior suggestion
but the suggestion itself had a completely different purpose
proven tide
wow alright it's come full circle
hollow shell
Also nah the whole point was because it annoyed a mod
proven tide
suggestion chaining has completely changed meaning since the term was first implemented
warm tinsel
Tl;Dr I would like to prevent unnedeed nerfs
hollow shell
warm tinsel
@wary flume please remove that, KC is fine
proven tide
in response to the above
hollow shell
HaZe disagrees.
proven tide
ah, so like saying comments like this in reference to the previous suggestion
with no clarification
yeeees bloodflare lifesteal memes
although
proven tide
@ashen warren it's best if you clarify you want a healing buff, as increasing its damage to 1Mdps is a buff but not the one you're looking for
ashen warren
ok
proven tide
hehehe logical reasoning is just a smokescreen for the irritation at a half-line suggestion
yeeeees
hollow shell
Nice
I am more comfortable with this
proven tide
yw
ashen warren
you still have the same profile picture!
hollow shell
(Discord isn't conducive for nostalgia trips)
proven tide
(Discord retcons your username and PFP for convenience's sake, I've only had this PFP for a couple of days)
teal ibex
did viscera get nerfed in the recent past because i recall it being nutso good for healing
proven tide
@wary flume what? why?
wary flume
I got 2 lol
I don't need 2
The bag has no use at holding one if you get one without the bag
proven tide
.
proven tide
so let's make the same apply to other guaranteed drop in the game
void kelp
one to sell or reforge
proven tide
literally nothing changes if you make it drop from the bag or the boss
it's for consistency >.>
wary flume
wHaT iS tHe PoInt Of tWo PiCkAxEs
proven tide
otherwise drops like the ashes of calamity from clone, souls from mechs and their alternatives, cosmilite from dog, etc. would all drop outside of their bags
this changes literally nothing
and just violates consistency for its own sake
proven tide
what does that mean
ah, fuck it
@opal barn verdict?
on sugg validity regarding reason
opal barn
It only has a 100% drop chance on the first kill, removing it from the treasure bag would mean that if you lost it before getting a better pick, you would not be able to get ataxia
wary flume
How the hell do you lose a pickaxe
hard sigil
Swinging with both hands doubles your mining speed
wary flume
Make it buyable from a NPC after golem kill
opal barn
Mediumcore characters, somehow leaving it in recipe browser and quitting the game
proven tide
are you sure it's on first kill only?
i thought it was changed to be a flat 100% because i remember having to trash fuckloads
wary flume
Recipe browser doesn't hold items anymore ahaha
It makes a copy and leaves the real one in your inv
opal barn
It's only on the 1st kill
proven tide
not if you drag and drop
proven tide
you can leave entire stacks of items
proven tide
entirely besides the point
opal barn
Can you stop that?
proven tide
i just want to draw it back to the discussion at hand rather than minutiae regarding how you can lose the item
opal barn
And yes, it is besides the point, the fact that you can lose the pickaxe still stands
proven tide
you can literally just fucking trash it, tera's point remains as valid
wary flume
Clearly people have negative hours here
opal barn
Okay? If you have no counter argument are you alright if the suggestion is removed?
opal barn
That's correct
wary flume
Who is stupid enough to trash or lose something that is meaningful in that segment of the game?
proven tide
i must just be really lucky with picksaw drops, then
hard sigil
Why would they're be a chance for a second to drop if the first is bound to drop
just up the chances for the weapons
from golem
opal barn
I explained above
proven tide
who is stupid enough to think that a guaranteed item drop changes anything at all by being outside of a loot bag
opal barn
You can lose the pickaxe before you get ataxia and get locked out of it until pillars
proven tide
why not drop the shiny stone outside of the bag while you're at it 
lost agate
Wait a minute what other healing options at that tier
Vampire knives?
And it doesnt seem like viscera was nerfed at all @teal ibex , based on changelogs, hell it got buffed
queen delta
Viscera is post provi
radiant pawn
Remove the picksaw from the Golem Treasure bag if it has a 100% drop chance anyway
um
proven tide
we tried to address that
radiant pawn
it doesnt drop in the bag?
and well deleting the picksaw from the bag if it drops from golem 100%
lost agate
Yes ik its post provi yat, but what other healing options at that tier out performs it? Lifehunt scythe?
radiant pawn
we might just make sun stone drop from Golem 100% too since thats for celestial shell
queen delta
Gilded proboscis heals
Nah not everything has to be 100% chance
Picksaw was only a 100% drop chance cuz imagine locking a pickaxe thats required to mine the next tier ore behind a loot table with like 10% chance of dropping
lost agate
Probocis is a true melee spear right?
queen delta
Thanks vanilla
night cradle
Yes it's true melee
queen delta
Does gilded proboscis heal better than viscera? If so, thats a viable alternative
Get closer for better healing or stay safe but heal less
lost agate
Well the dude didnt bring any evidence so i have no idea
radiant pawn
bloodflare stuff in general has shit healing
Arrows, viscera and proboscis dont heal really well
lost agate
Well there was a dude who used viscera up to yharon
lost agate
Yes
radiant pawn
:ech:
lost agate
And it still healed well
night cradle
Doesn't the player use Proboscis really quickly though?
zenith hazel
does golem drop many picksaws in multiplayer on first kill?
lost agate
Do you get safely at true melee range really quickly?
zenith hazel
then what's the point of removing the picksaw from the bag if it's going to be available to only one player?
radiant pawn
That and 2 things more
lost agate
Cuz saying probocis is better cuz it (probably) heals more but ignoring the difference in range is ech
radiant pawn
- You can use it for reforging or selling, and the other one you got use it as a normal pickaxe
- You might have a mod that uses Picksaw for something else, and you might want to have picksaw as well as that "upgrade" from that mod
just saying, i dont think there's any mod that uses Picksaw for anything
ech what was proboscis? because i think im mixing things up with another wrapon
lost agate
That bumblebird spear
queen delta
spear indeed
radiant pawn
ah, yes i was mixing things up with bloodflare shit
Proboscis' healing is meh
it only heals like 1hp, it only becomes good because it ignores i-frames
but with yharon that whipes half of your hp, and a weapon that every poke heals like 20hp or around that
you might just well wait to chug another potion again
zenith hazel
the question is, why are you using proboscis for yharon?
radiant pawn
im not using it tho, but imagine using it for Yharon
zenith hazel
if you're not using emp knives for healing then there might be an issue here
lost agate
And we get to basically the same issue we had in other items
Dude, a single beam healed him an entire heart
lost agate
Also remember "imagine judging by its base dmg" now we have "imagine judging by its base healing"
proven tide
okay
radiant pawn
with an item as viscera, at the tier it is in you would want ir to heal you 1 ½ or 2
proven tide
look
radiant pawn
But it heals you only one
radiant pawn
and its completely useless as Yharon just whipes your health away in seconds
proven tide
doesn't matter how high the dps is vs. the bosses
lost agate
Im not .... Talking dps
proven tide
damage and healing, for both bosses and players, aren't balanced as numbers but proportions
lost agate
When did i mention dps
proven tide
1.5-2 hearts is a bigger number, yes, but that would be a ridiculous rate of healing
it's fine as is
lost agate
And if you want 2 hearts per shot when that thing shoots like twice per second then holy shit
proven tide
^
zenith hazel
this video just got posted like 3 mins ago but ok
proven tide
look at that fucking regen
lost agate
And if you need more healing... Then you may need to dodge better ngl
proven tide
i was timestamp linking bruh
checking the end of yt links helps with reposts mid-discussion
if it has the ?t=x it's a reference point rather than a repost
as in this case
zenith hazel
ah, my mistake then
proven tide
o7
radiant pawn
with life regen like that you might as well nerf Draedons Heart
if you stay still the life regen is nuts
lost agate
Thats not draedon heart
zenith hazel
wasn't the regen nerfed a bit a while back?
proven tide
staying still at that point in the game is heavily punished
lost agate
He literally was running lura
proven tide
so it's an okay reward
lost agate
Tf u talking about
proven tide
shucks, you're missing context
radiant pawn
i'm not saying he is using draedons heatt
proven tide
what lura's saying is "if that regen's OP, why not nerf draeheart as well?"
lost agate
Because who the hell stands still on bosses
proven tide
why allow for multiple playstyles when you can enforce run & gun 24/7
radiant pawn
the biggest gap you can find is when you get him to 10%
lost agate
Well yeah but is it comparable to just shooting a beam?
radiant pawn
well yes and no
proven tide
an amount
iirc draeheart regen ramps into a fuckload only a bit more than what was demonstrated above
however, that video is seven months out of date
not sure if there's been any changes since
radiant pawn
there could have been a lot of changes in 7 months
lost agate
I couldnt find any
radiant pawn
viscera could have been nerfed
proven tide
nor i
anyway, draeheart's regen takes time, as opposed to viscera's nuts HP/s off the bat
60hp/s while running and gunning
is absolutely fucken nothing to scoff at
tacit creek
My suggestions:
1- we need a post sc summoner weapon
2- we need post dog bullets
proven tide
it might require a bit of a big brain usage depending on situation
but, you know
i don't think it needs buffing
'course, doesn't mean i won't support more buffing UWU
zenith hazel
a post-scal summoner weapon will come eventually
also what kind of post-DoG bullets are you talking, like vanquisher/cosmilite ones? if so, such a suggestion is frequently suggested
proven tide
app. there's a dev who wants one
radiant pawn
vanquisher bullets was suggested a fuck ton
tacit creek
Yeah cosmilite bullets ,i am tired of using holy explosive bullets
radiant pawn
what other changes would vanquisher bullets even have
zenith hazel
they're still enough to carry you through yharon though
tacit creek
Holy fire bullets carry you throught post moon lord bosses
But we need more bullets ,i want to see my onyxia shoting something diferent
I only use the holy fire bullets or the hyperium bullets
radiant pawn
If devs add cosmilite bullets, silva and auric could be a thing
and why do we need them, and what changes will they have in between
what functionality will they have
will they home in? Spawn more bullets on enemy hits? piercing like luminite
proven tide
oi oi no encouraging that
that's toeing the line of specific items
which, as we all know, is gae n bad
radiant pawn
What i mean is
tacit creek
variety, since I used a lot the holy fire bullets
radiant pawn
Every bullet has their own thing (except cryonic bullets but lets ignore it)
proven tide
it's encouraged that content is expanded and the scope widened to be more colourful
but additions for the sake of padding the types of additions are more of a negative than anything else
radiant pawn
If you need cosmilite bullets, you should also put a special thing that bullet could have
and what sequence said
its pretty dull to add stuff just for variety
signal prairie
You must remember that Calamity is not finished yet. They may add more types of bullets later
proven tide
that's uh
why suggestions are a thing
because it's not too late to request content changes
zenith hazel
there's still like 4 bosses down the line byeah
tacit creek
I only Say a suggestion ,is just an idea
rugged mist
everybody gangsta until fogbound actually gets added
proven tide
bosses define weapon tiers because of course they do
still kinda iffy on the whole calamity-is-a-glorified-boss-rush front
proven tide
but hey
as it is now that's the balance regime we go by so it's what we need to consider regarding content additions
rugged mist
Gonna type out a less skeletony version of that melee rework sug rq
sand umbra
nobody:
me: "Darksun-tier bullets will make boss-fighting more interesting because they'll have, for example, [insert unique idea here], and it'll help encourage a bit more strategy when firing off a thousand bullets at once. They also aren't Vanquisher Bullets."
sand umbra
it's specific for the sake of the joke
there don't exist Vanquisher Bullets in the first place
literally everybody and their DoG suggests Vanquisher-tier bullets but you never see anyone take a second glance at Darksun Fragments
or like 90% of the other tiers that may potentially need the variety boost
rugged mist
Rework/redesign some melee weapons to be weapons in non-melee classes instead
Reason: Melee is a bloated class and this would be a way of removing bloat from melee and adding content to other classes without removing content from the mod altogether. Furthermore, certain melee weapons for all intents and purposes might as well be weapons from other classes.
A prime example of this is the Biome Blade line of weapons, which fires projectiles on every swing, and could be completely reworked to a mage line of weapons rather than being a member of an already bloated section (swords/projectile swords) of the most bloated class in the game
proven tide
imagine thinking divine geodes needed to exist when you could just shift darksun to post-provi
granite owl
@rugged mist wrong channel
proven tide
you killed the sun, now it's gone dark
lost agate
Also me: oh yeah specific suggestions are banned
lost agate
sand umbra
rugged mist
im discussing it not posting it
im checking if i should make any further edits before actually posting
sand umbra
...okay but actually
Darksun bullshit being post-Provi would be cool
and rather fitting
granite owl
celestus post-provi 
sand umbra
the only thing of it is
Provi already unlocks a TON of bullshit
lost agate
And have nothing but yharon drops for p2?
granite owl
or not celestus
proven tide
*glances at plantera*
rugged mist
broke: add more bosses because theyre planned for the mod
woke: add more bosses so there can be more stages of progression in the game
zenith hazel
ranged, summoner, and rogue players can make do with yharon drops
no clue about melee and mage though
radiant pawn
@rugged mist you are now discussing both vanilla and calamity now
proven tide
smoke: add more bosses because it would be cool
radiant pawn
swords that fire magic projectiles are melee weappns
rugged mist
they dont fire on evry swing in vanilla
radiant pawn
but a bow that shoots a rainbow is a magic weappn
zenith hazel
also why darksun stuff post-provi? provi already unlocks a lot anyway
radiant pawn
Those you mean are true melee
sand umbra
I already pointed that out, Brav
proven tide
i never said darksun stuff
sand umbra
h
zenith hazel
that'd involve a lot of nerfing and etc
proven tide
fragments replacing geodes
signal prairie
You no remove The Ark line from Melee, it's the only good weapon for Scal
proven tide
¯_(ツ)_/¯
sand umbra
or, better idea
rugged mist
i said biome blade line not ark line 
sand umbra
you make the Arks actually have the mechanics of the swords they're typically crafted with
you make the Biome Blade line into an actual mage weapon like it honestly kinda should be
signal prairie
Biome blade leads into the ark line 6head
rugged mist
ik they meet up at the end
sand umbra
and you combine the two into the Ark of the Cosmos at the end of the game
turning one weapon type into another mid-crafting tree is not unheard of at all
rugged mist
weapons switching to another class is already a thing in the mod (see: elemental axe)
sand umbra
ele axe is the most prominent example, yeah
zenith hazel
also ark isn't the only good melee weapon for scal, there's also ataraxia, but I digress
rugged mist
and im not only suggesting for biome blade, thats just a particular example of a melee weapon that really has no reason to be melee
zenith hazel
also what are we talking about again?
proven tide
no fucking idea
signal prairie
Plus, biome blade has
- Always been a Melee weapon
- Is actually useful due to the recent buff
- Melee while yes, is a little weapon heavy. Only about 25% of the weapons are viable
sand umbra
we're talking about Azura's WIP suggestion thing...I think
proven tide
as far as i can tell we're talking about points the other person isn't making
in every direction.
rugged mist
"a little weapon heavy"
rugged mist
theres over 3 times as many swords in the mod as there are summoner weapons
sand umbra
zenith hazel
wouldn't moving the biome blade make ark of the cosmos too easy to craft?
rugged mist
just swords
proven tide
no, no
sand umbra
no
proven tide
AotC becomes a staff
sand umbra
you're not moving Biome Blade
proven tide
just changing damage type
signal prairie
Ataraxia is only good for hearts, AotC provides a solid dps
proven tide
and also swing effect removal because staffs don't swing
zenith hazel
have you tested ataraxia against scal?
radiant pawn
exoblade better for hearts
proven tide
Melee while yes, is a little weapon heavy. Only about 25% of the weapons are viable
bro that's actually shitting further on melee and encouraging more melee switchup
signal prairie
Yes
proven tide
you're saying
sand umbra
so you're telling me
proven tide
melee has lots of content and the vast majority of it is useless
signal prairie
I was talking to brav
sand umbra
of the over 200 swords available with vanilla and Calamity combined
only about 50 of them are viable
okbuddy
signal prairie
AotC is the only Melee weapon that provides a solid DPS against Scal while still being able to focus on dodging
sand umbra
everything else allows you to focus on dodging as well wh
proven tide
i would say this is beside the point but i don't know what point all y'all are even missing any more
zenith hazel
this is probably straying from the whole melee being bloated thing, so if we're gonna argue about weapons for scal, move to #calamity-mod-talk please
sand umbra
I'm not even sure what we're talking about specifically in the first place
rugged mist
Rework/redesign some melee weapons to be weapons in non-melee classes instead
Reason: Melee is a bloated class (especially in the swords department) and this would be a way of removing bloat from melee and adding content to other classes without removing content from the mod altogether. Furthermore, certain melee weapons for all intents and purposes might as well be weapons from other classes.
A prime example of this is the Biome Blade line of weapons, which fires projectiles on every swing, and could be completely reworked to a mage line of weapons rather than being a member of an already bloated section (swords/projectile swords) of the most bloated class in the game. Even regarding the AotC, weapons changing class at the end of their crafting tree is already a thing in the mod, with a notable example being elemental axe, which follows a melee crafting tree and then suddenly becomes a summoner weapon.
There are other weapons too which this would make sense for, but I won't list all of them because I want to make sure this comes off as a more generalized suggestion rather than just a handful of specific items to be reworked.
Should i also address that the calamity weapons are different from vanilla projectile swords
sand umbra
this looks good, tbf
signal prairie
Just copy-paste the code from biome blade to a mage line, that should be easy
proven tide
firing projectiles on every swing isn't quite the main issue
zenith hazel
ok I agree with melee being bloated, it has too many weapons for its own right, but I'm not entirely on board with moving something as prominent as the biome blade to mage
proven tide
... or just change the damage type of the existing weapon .>.
it's the type of weapon that's important
remove the sword from the image
just the effects:
radiant pawn
Temporal Floe Sword for example
sand umbra
but I'm not entirely on board with moving something as prominent as the biome blade to mage
follow-up question:
radiant pawn
it exists solely for terratomere
sand umbra
why?
proven tide
a cascade of glowing technicolour stars and beams shoot towards the cursor and inflict differing effects based on the environment
(okay so, for those of you backreading, this reaaally could have been worded better towards the point)
that's not a fucking sword, that's magic
rugged mist
i mean yeah its a controversial pick but when you really think about it theres no reason for it to be melee other than the fact that its been melee for so long
though of course, appeal to the general player is an important part of making suggestions and people won't star it if they disagree with the example i give
zenith hazel
I'm just saying, moving something big like that would have an enormous impact
proven tide
it should
zenith hazel
we're basically moving an entire weapon line that spans from hardmode to endgame
proven tide
not the entire line
lost agate
Hol up
proven tide
bro it's specified that the damage type is intended to change late in the line
zenith hazel
I'm just iffy about it
lost agate
You wanna make biome blade mage, when people are already going crazy over the ele axe situation?
sand umbra
they are?
rugged mist
at this rate i might just add at the bottom
Note: the suggestion here is NOT "Change biome blade to a mage weapon"; the suggestion is to rework some melee weapons into other classes to better distribute content across the different classes
sand umbra
because that's been a thing as long as I can remember and nobody's really gone mad over it
at all
lost agate
Most i see is "muh consistency"
Yeah maybe crazy wasnt the word
It just has been heavily discussed
signal prairie
Biome Blade is kinda something that almost all older Calamity players know, it's a sort of idol to the older Melee calamity players.
lost agate
And just changing the classes of weapon cuz yes is....
zenith hazel
yeah I get it, which is why I said moving biome blade would be too significant, hence moving less important weapons would be better
signal prairie
^
proven tide
what place has that last set of effects being in the melee class?
melee, the class of getting in one's face and punching them repeatedly
lost agate
So if it has projectiles it cant be melee anymore
proven tide
haha yes time to commit magical effects
zenith hazel
so what, do we turn everything into true melee?
proven tide
dude, there's projectiles, then there's staff rip
lost agate
It was sprited as a sword, it was designed as a sword
sand umbra
getting defensive, much?
if a sword does nothing that defines it as a sword other than swinging, there is no point to it being a sword
a sword can still fire projectiles, but the projectiles shouldn't be the only reason you get the weapon
signal prairie
all this hate on Melee
sand umbra
I'm not hating on melee
at all
lost agate
You can just change a bit of smth and call it a new thing
signal prairie
Not talking about you thomas
tired haven
I'm hating on regular melee tho
proven tide
okay what is the huge and crippling issue with aotc becoming a staff
yes, it's an iconic weapon, yes, that's recognised
lost agate
Its not a staff
rugged mist
the only argument against this im hearing is basically "its been this way why should it stop being this way" rather than actually providing a reason for why it would be bad to change it
proven tide
^
sand umbra
^
proven tide
that doesn't mean it can't be class-shifted for consistency and fucking logic
"a melee weapon can't have projectiles now" bruh no
lost agate
Because you cant fucking just change the class and call it a day
proven tide
Yes you can.
rugged mist
Notice how the suggestion also says redesign
proven tide
thanks for the strawman when the point is that aotc's effects specifically are those of a standard end-game staff rather than melee projectiles bad
please stop moving the goalposts and saying no for its own sake and actually address the issue with changing the class
legacy reasons are debatable at best
proven tide
that's a strawman, the point is specifically not "melee projectiles bad"
also isn't that how half of all projectiles work in this game
granite owl
more than a half
proven tide
^
lost agate
The stars come from a melee weapon, so does the beam
I dont see how this goes to staff
proven tide
... but if it was a staff they would come from a staff
zenith hazel
yeah but they're from a sword?
granite owl
i remember only terrablade with sword projectile true night's edge influx waver
and thats all i remember
proven tide
the point is changing the source to better enforce consistency between weapon types
signal prairie
Alright, moving it to magic would do.
- Make Melee Scal more painful than Magic
- Completely destroy some of Melee's most idolistic weapons.
- It would need an entirely new sprite, FOR THE ENTIRE LINE.
- It's meant to be a Cosmic Sword. It's meant to have a billion and a half projectiles.
tired haven
Beam sword
Enchanted sword
proven tide
true excalibur iirc
proven tide
😔
zenith hazel
well tbf, moving ark over wouldn't completely destroy melee scal, since it still has ataraxia for scal and hearts and dragon pow for seekers
granite owl
also why redtide sword looks like razorblade typhoon magic weapon projectile then
lost agate
Remind me what item on aotc crafting isnt melee
zenith hazel
no homing though so eh
proven tide
remind me how many times we've specifically cited the precedent of the elemental axe
for exactly that goddamn reason
also it's not just the ark that would be moved
the entire biome line could be shifted to mage no problem
tired haven
This discussion is mildly pointless solely due to the fact any changes for melee in that way would cause chain reaction to fix all the melee system and thus become a bigger update than terraria 1.3
granite owl
true
pliant bone
More like a bigger update than recreating terraria 1.3 from scratch
zenith hazel
so are you forcing an entire line of swords that involve projectiles to change to mage?
tired haven
Making swords less reliant on magic projectiles I assume
proven tide
not just because they involve projectiles
oh my god how many fucking times to we have to repeat this
it's not melee projectiles bad it's aotc projectiles melee why
zenith hazel
what's the difference exactly?
tired haven
Bruh?
granite owl
bruh
lost agate
I looked through the entire crafting table of aotc, and well i fail to see how anything resembles mage
proven tide
lost agate
If aotc becomes mage literally everything needs to change
granite owl
wow aotc projectiles looks like stars we should make it magic
rugged mist
Ita also "theres like a billion sword weapons and some of them could easily be put in other classes instead to better distribute content across the mod"
lost agate
Design, how they are hold, recipes
proven tide
it's not about appearance it's about function
queen sail
How long is this going to go on
zenith hazel
and the function is...
queen sail
granite owl
wow aotc projectiles are homing we need to make it magic!
tired haven
I don't see how aotc is considered not melee and not galaxia or some shit (or literally 60% of swords at this point)
ashen warren
better make burning sky a magic weapon because lunar flare ripoff
queen sail
Just change VC or something
lost agate
You mean the starfury projectiles but upgraded and enchanted sword beams but upgraded
queen sail
Considering how much that gets shit on
lost agate
Again i fail to see how they are mage
rugged mist
Ok why dont we talk about a different weapon then since the suggestion isnt just mfing biome blade
proven tide
^
elder mist
make all weapons ranged because they deal damage from a distance
tired haven
Yes pls
granite owl
Yes pls
queen sail
@elder mist Everything Terraria related, vanilla or mod, follows this
granite owl
Ranger will be more :ranger:
tired haven
True melee
proven tide
people really overestimate the amount of ranged melee weapons, huh
ashen warren
remove all projectiles from melee, increase their damage, add a new superdash that gives immunity to contact damage, dodge rolls, completely remake the entire melee class while we're here
signal prairie
Damnit Terry lol
proven tide
gotta love how the whole 'melee having projectiles is the problem' was a fucking straw man that others then took to be the point of the suggestion
and then got turned into a meme
rugged mist
The suggestion also isnt change all projectile swords
granite owl
make all weapons projectiles dog
elder mist
do you know why it got turned into a meme
because it's a shit suggestion to defend
that's just the way it goes
signal prairie
^
sand umbra
Care to give a reason why?
proven tide
thankfully the suggestion wasn't to make projectile-based melee weapons non-melee
elder mist
Okay, yes I can
rugged mist
Maybe actually read the fucking suggestion itself and not just whine about the weapon then
proven tide
can SOMEONE LINK THE ORIGINAL FUCKING SUGGESTION
signal prairie
^
elder mist
Just because projectiles look like they're magic, it doesn't automatically mean they should be magic damage. This applies to all melee weapons.
zenith hazel
tired haven
It does not only talk about aotc
proven tide
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/465195069406707722/631119180980027402
it's the function and delivery too 
queen sail
To be fair we do have magic guns
elder mist
So they look and hear
queen sail
zenith hazel
wait so since when did we have a general consensus about what magic projectiles are like?
is there a general rule that magic projectiles have to follow?
lost agate
Im confused as to what the point of any of this is
ashen warren
magic proj = literally fucking anything, its magic
sand umbra
So am I.
tired haven
Not ranged I assume
proven tide
it was never about the appearance of the projectile
elder mist
That'd apparently fix everything, if swords were changed to sword projectiles and had generic slash sounds instead.
zenith hazel
if there isn't, why the hell are we talking about this
lost agate
"change aotc to mage cuz they look mage but dont but lemme deny everything again"
elder mist
Do you see how dumb this is?
rugged mist
It's not about appearance it's about functionality
proven tide
One example was that the Biome line, which got simplified mid-discussion into just AotC itself, functions more like a staff set than a sword set.
elder mist
Okay, go on then give me more examples
zenith hazel
you can't just compare melee projectiles to mage projectiles if we don't even know what mage projectiles are even like because there's no rule
proven tide
ain't my suggestion, chief
zenith hazel
but you are fiercely defending it
elder mist
You were defending it.
ashen warren
god?
sand umbra
Alright.
Old Mirror Blade.
signal prairie
Honestly, it was a bad suggestion and Vetus is just getting salty.
proven tide
was just backing that one example because what was said against it was invalid on all fronts
okay that's old mirror blade so not exactly that relevant
sand umbra
Hell, Mirror Blade as it is still.
tired haven
Old mirror blade 
signal prairie
That's the way I understand it
lost agate
The functionality is literally what the items you use to craft them but upgraded to post yharon
And they are all melee
rugged mist
Buddy
elder mist
Sorry, old* meteor armor since it now costs mana
sand umbra
Ultimus Cleaver.
zenith hazel
cleaver got changed recently though
sand umbra
Precisely my point.
Ultimus Cleaver.
The true melee weapon that shits out projectiles every time it swings.
lost agate
So is this about biome blade or not biome blade or any other weapon
elder mist
...?
lost agate
Im literally confused
rugged mist
It's not about biome blade but that's what everyone keeps roping it back to
queen sail
What are we even attacking at this point
tired haven
Each other
granite owl
ok i checked wiki and aotc has projectiles of EVERY class
elder mist
Hm yes, let's make holy collider magic because it shits out magic flames when it hits an enemy
queen sail
This was supposed to be about changing some melee weps to be weps for other classes and now it’s just “Ranged melee bad”
granite owl
make it all class then
elder mist
elder mist
it doesn't matter when you take the context you're using my man
sand umbra
Would you like to try again.
tired haven
https://discordapp.com/channels/225030931008847874/465195069406707722/631121349871665182
If there isn't a major reasoning to change the way melee projectiles work, just let them be please. This is leading nowhere
elder mist
The context you're using is that just because it uses projectiles that look magical then it should be magic
sand umbra
Nope.
elder mist
Holy shit how blind can you be to your own argument
What are you even defending??
Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing or...?
steep island
bro crystalline's projectiles split which isn't something that happens in real life meaning it's magic, make them magic projectiles!
lost agate
I muted this chat because of how heated up in gets in here, unmuted yesterday and here i am again
granite owl
why we even talk about only magic projectiles, when aotc has rocket from vortex beater, mini cell from stardust cell staff?
lost agate
Whatever
proven tide
to be fair, shucks, this is the worst it has been in
... fucking ages, actually
literally not a single person either changed their mind slightly or heard what the others were saying
rugged mist
The base argument isnt against melee having projectiles it's about melee (swords) having a disproportionately massive amount of weapons compared to other classes
proven tide
so uh, not a very good indicator of general chat quality
elder mist
The main problem I saw was this
Yes, melee has quite a lot more weapons than other classes may have
No, saying to change melee weapons to other classes is not the way to tackle that problem
proven tide
Well, to approach it from a different angle
I think the source of the issue that some have is that because it's so large it's gradually widening in scope to become a catchall class
queen sail
Yeah I’m gonna agree that this is the worst debate I’ve ever seen
There’s no real attempt to reach a middle ground
proven tide
seriously this is the actual shittest convo i've seen in this entire channel
tired haven
Help me to find the "disproportionate amount of projectiles" in original suggestion
proven tide
and i've been here for two years
wait i looked away for two minutes who mentioned "amount"
the direction of this conversation changes every second jfc
tired haven
proven tide
ty
zenith hazel
anyway this is going nowhere, I recommend we kill the topic now before it gets any worse
rugged mist
Bruh I said amount of weapons
proven tide
can i try to compromise the two sides with a final word
tired haven
Wait, why do we talk about projectiles then?
proven tide
well, it was about the function of some melee projectiles
queen sail
Please do
elder mist
Because it was 1 argument brought up that was quickly shot down
proven tide
yeah, shooting down an argument is a worse approach than trying to find a compromise on any front
zenith hazel
I'm serious btw, are we going to stop or not?
proven tide
depends on whether we can find some way to say here's the state of affairs, opinions on how good that is are no longer relevant or if it's just gonna stay as a meaningless divide
¯_(ツ)_/¯
elder mist
You're wrong on that semi last one vetus
If an argument has garbage reasoning and is just there for the sake of throwing anything to the fire, it deserves to be shot down.
proven tide
that's true
okay so i found a good example for my point my only input was just that aotc functions more like a wand than a sword lmao and it was hiding in vanilla all along
😔
tired haven
(yet it got changed)
wonder why
tired haven
also tbh now it is better because high base dmg of star
Old stars were like 12 dmg and current is 48
Well, see, I had a concept in my head being "spellswords", which will deal magic dmg by projectiles and melee dmg by blade and its' effects, but it would be insanely hard to balance and fit into the game
proven tide
what if we upgraded the sky fracture to exo tier
what would its functional difference from ark be :hmm:
spellswords would basically be impossible to balance for one single reason:
specialisation
proven tide
guns don't fire from around the player
elder mist
Oh but they do.
tired haven
none, because ark is a spellsword by definition, like any shooting sword
proven tide
unless they're certain gae failures :hmm:
tired haven
Conference call is a magic weapon don't @ everyone
proven tide
gun is sleeper bloated
elder mist
proven tide
yeah it's
tired haven
Yeah every weapon is summoner actually
You summon damaging hitboxes
elder mist
proven tide
always irked me that half the magic weapons say "summons a [projectile]" in their tooltip
rugged mist
Calamity is bloated uninstall the mod
ashen warren
unholy trident has a melee hitbox.
therefore, all melee weapons should be magic
proven tide
unholy trident has a fucking what
sand umbra
why does Unholy Trident have a melee hitbox again
elder mist
Also has a melee hitbox
proven tide
bayonets exist tbh
ashen warren
because red copypasted code and forgot to add "make this not have a melee hitbox"
proven tide
make bayonet weapons be melee spears on right-click 
elder mist
tired haven
Marnite rifle spear says hello
proven tide
i mean
sand umbra
excuse me while I kill Unholy Trident melee hitbox iirc
elder mist
proven tide
i guess it's a trident
sand umbra
elder mist
You can't fight against vanilla reasoning
proven tide
that shit's inexcusable and muddies the waters of discourse 😔
elder mist
That's just impossible
ashen warren
so it just makes even more sense to make melee weapons magic
sand umbra
a
proven tide
terry please
elder mist
Yeah terry
sand umbra
why does vanilla's balancing just flip everything on its head
proven tide
better question
why does calamity's reasoning flip everything on its head and blame vanilla
proven tide
cool! now i'm just going to sign my fucking death warrant and be on my way
sand umbra
so theoretically, if it's flipped on its head again, it should be upright and all's well again!...right?
...r-right...?
proven tide
still sitting here with spellsword discussion fuel in my clipboard
hi, aussie here: if i bake an upside-down cake what way up is it facing
crab still here for spellsword talk?
sand umbra
anywho I need to go do a thing
I need to focus on shit that I have on my immediate to-do list instead of constantly getting distracted by things like this
terse sundial
@thorny cradle No
elder mist
Basically another instance of people suggesting Yharim's Army event
thorny cradle
Ouch but fair enough
sand umbra
pretty sure the reason why is actually the fact that there's already an event of this type planned
terse sundial
^^
sand umbra
I think
terse sundial
yes, but it's a long ways off also it's pretty annoying when people suggest events over and over again
thorny cradle
Yeah I just had a bout of inspiration and was like " hey, what if this existed"
frail mantle
Yharim's Invasion is already in the Don'ts iirc
elfin swan
at some point the don'ts are gonna be longer than the bug doc
thorny cradle
Where could I find the iirc?
terse sundial
the doc is in the pins of this channel
zenith hazel
in pins
terse sundial
if you aren't going to edit it, i'm going to just delete it
zenith hazel
also if it’s in the “don’t”s then I’ll just delete it
thorny cradle
Alright, I will get rid of it.
tired haven
@proven tide before I leave again I'd drop the "benefits from both class damage buffs" (similar to Forbidden set's tornado) idea
proven tide
yeah i was about to say
in order to best reap DPS from a spellsword's two aspects you'd have to have them roughly equal in dps and split your class benefits
but if that's the case (single-class damage buffs, that is; sword buffed only by melee, projectiles by magic) then specialising in melee/magic would result in more dps than both at once
so it's a more versatile weapon type but partially self-defeating
rugged mist
I'm gonna do it guys im gonna post the bruhggestion
proven tide
and here was me thinking i'd been warned for saying fuck in front of mods one too many times
elfin swan
The what
rugged mist
proven tide
my nerves aren't handling rn
@rugged mist cool, good to see you're committing to that blazing suicide
terse sundial
I don't know how to feel about it
Yes, melee is a bloated class, but we are already taking care of some of those aspects next update
elfin swan
The thing is they're working on giving the other classes things, and changing classes on a weapon doesn't seem that easy to me, as you'd need to change how the weapon works fundementally
rugged mist
you wouldn't though
proven tide
now uh, it might be good to specify that it's not just taking projectile swords and making them non-melee for rounding purposes, but taking weapons that function more like other specific weapon times AOTC IS A WAND and reclassifying them like that
terse sundial
afaik, all of the melee/rogue stuff is going to rogue completely, yet that isn't set in stone yet
ashen warren
better plan: class updates for every class except melee until all of them have over 150 weapons
even summoner
terse sundial
that could work
sand umbra
summoner needs more weapons tho
it is by a wide margin the smallest class of the five, mainly if you consider the upcoming rogue expansion
I understand why, and I don't doubt it's more aggravating than the average homing projectile, but at some point somebody's gotta bite the bullet and make some new options for summoners
elfin swan
I guess, thinking about it more, it mostly needs more weapons for pre-bosses and stuff to prepare, after you kill a boss it gets pretty good, pre hm needs a lot of help though
queen sail
Two reasons probably
- Summon code omega meme
- Rogue
Like i’m pretty sure I last time heard that the devs just trust terry to do summon code
sand umbra
- you know, now that I think of it, I have yet to see an actual supporting argument for why summon code is ass
- I understand that, and I even mentioned the upcoming rogue expansion which I absolutely feel should take priority simply because rogue has no vanilla leg to stand on
elfin swan
I know next to nothing about coding but from what I've seen it's very... unresponsive at times
I...think they're waiting for the next update to put it on browser
terse sundial
no
the main reason was Fab's shitty internet, but now that he's moved it's just a matter of time
elfin swan
Ah
lost agate
@sand umbra summon code is Homing projectile code with pet code but that can do dmg, i looked through normal weapons homing code and understood it in no time, but i have yet to understand wtf happens with summons, to give you an idea
Oh and this example is for common ass "just follow the enemy" type of summon
lost agate
Grounded summons are fairly more complex
hardy wing
are you an ech follower
lost agate
No
sand umbra
elder mist
far(t)go
hardy wing
summons are dumbly easy to make if you make them just use the example mod code haha
lost agate
Because they need to follow you, they need to not die when you hit things, they need to differentiate when theres nothing to be agressive, and now add more complexity if you have fancy effects
ashen warren
I mean, summons arent that bad to code imo
elfin swan
Ok so...summon code bad and vanilla code bad?
ashen warren
I had a good time with cultist and true eye minions
lost agate
Well maybe you have more experience
sand umbra
in all my time looking at ExampleMod I have never seen this fabled example summon
ashen warren
worm minions, however, can suck my nuts
lost agate
Theres an example pet
elfin swan
Terry no
runic heath
And there are different kinds of summons cause you have things like res butterfly although now that I think about it isn’t that basically just the twins but textured as butterflies?
lost agate
But its copied ai lmfao
runic heath
Since I was going to make a point about positioning in regards to shooting projectiles
runic heath
But the optic staff already exists
lost agate
Fair
ashen warren
part of it is that you cant quite shit out summon weapons as effortlessly as you can other classes
lost agate
I have literally never made a summon cuz i havent completely understood how they work just yet, so take that how you want
ashen warren
like, making a pre hm gun vs a pre hm minion
lost agate
Yeah summons are more complex to do than say a gun
runic heath
Oh for sure I would imagine it’s quite a bit more of an undertaking
sand umbra
ashen warren
but even then, once you get a good framework and/or in later game stages it starts to even out
lost agate
Just as a comparison, a gun is only one item, a summon needs 3 files at least
Item, debuff, projectile, maybe the projectile said summon will shoot
sand umbra
...so in effect
it is a mage weapon with a retardedly complex projectile
and that applies a buff whenever used that may be right-clicked to BEGONE all projectiles of its type
tired haven
Pretty much
spiral olive
Unless it’s a ground summon 
lost agate
Ground summons are even worse iirc
runic heath
Crab
spiral olive
Plus tile/platform collision
sand umbra
since then you have to figure out how they'll interact with tiles
tired haven
(ranged and mage you just hold one sprite and shoot another)
runic heath
Yeah
sand umbra
whether they have effects on each collision, how their mobility differs
all that bullshit
runic heath
Having to deal with floor collision is oof
lost agate
Oh yeah, platform dont count as tiles in OntileCollide
runic heath
And enemy collision
lost agate
So thats fun
sand umbra
OKAY SO ACTUALLY
runic heath
Depending
runic heath
Since if you have a just projectile shooting not colliding minion
sand umbra
why does OnTileCollide not fucking function with platforms at all
runic heath
Then it’s just creating a projectile which shoots more projectiles and collision is irrelevant
hardy wing
platforms dont actually exist, its just a mental image the player projects and their mental state is so high they are able to float on air where they think a real object is
sand umbra
ashen warren
gravity-affected minions 
tired haven
Seems legit
runic heath
Gravity affected minions but they aren’t ground minions your minions just fall over time
lost agate
Actually lemme see if i remember
hardy wing
has anyone ever used tikis or pirates- no
spiral olive
non
ashen warren
i use tiki, sometimes
runic heath
I mean I used tikis in vanilla
tired haven
Tiki can shoot while flying, actually
ashen warren
also your hand is forced and you have to go spiders when wait tiki can fucking what
lost agate
Akato, which flies, is about 150 or so lines of code iirc
tired haven
Albeit quite finnicky
Like the rest of summons
runic heath
I used it to get the stuff for statis
lost agate
Kendra, which is grounded, has 300 or so iirc
runic heath
I thought akato was a pet
runic heath
Okay
tired haven
Because pierce iframes
spiral olive
Oh right that exists
tired haven
There, 80% of summons are immediately garbage
spiral olive
^2
runic heath
Epic
sand umbra
spiral olive
About summons being bootleg mage weapons though, makes sense since it was originally mage. They just decided to build off of that instead of remaking it from the ground up in 1.2
tired haven
Let yoo know that stardust cells. in fact, shoot PIERCING projectile, so cells are conflicting with dragon on the same tier