#suggestions-discussion
quick ice
Right here, you can see that the Demon Eye and Soul Slurper have pretty comparable stats, and by Hardmode the Demon Eye is more powerful than the Soul Slurper
Which while it’s large defense pile and damage reduction help it, for an underworld enemy it’s very weak
Considering demons and Bone serpents are much more powerful than this
^
Up here is The Cultist assassin, which is the only Hardmode enemy in the Brimstone Crags
Whose stats are unbearably low, having comparable HP to the Demon Eye, a pre-Hardmode enemy and having even lower defense than the soul Slurper.
Also, these enemies post-Moon lord HP stats are jokes as well. They are absurdly weak in comparison to other post-ML enemies who begin spawning before them, which I’ll post an example of below
This guy, who starts spawning before the Brimstone Crag Enemies and has an AI that makes him more difficult out powers them once they’re buffed despite being killable pre-Brimstone Crag buff
quick ice
It is, but it’s also a Hardmode enemy
terse rampart
600 dmg low btw
quick ice
The post-provi Damage is fine
terse rampart
Ohh u mean hm
quick ice
The HP is bad for all the Brimstone enemies
terse rampart
Eh i see where ur coming from
quick ice
Yeah
The damage is fine for them, but without more HP they can’t live long enough to threaten the player
quick ice
By Hardmode all of these enemies can be 2-shot
Except for maybe the despair stone, who’s a contact only enemy so wings make it less of a threat
ruby cobalt
and slimes get 4x original stats in hardmode, so, the point?
do we buff everything to shit balance?
quick ice
The enemies need an HP Buff if they are supposed to live long enough to be a threat
terse rampart
I think you fail to understand terraria
quick ice
Me?
terse rampart
Ya but not everything has to be a treatj
tired haven
Green slime is buffed by like 10x actually 
hollow saffron
^
cyan lagoon
But if the enemies have early-prehm levels of health whata the point?
quick ice
It is, but if the Brimstone Crag is an Underworld biome, much less one that’s meant to be traveled in during Hardmode, the enemies at least need a buff during Hardmode
hollow shell
I'd be fine if they were just buffed straight-up
There's no need to explore the biome in Pre-HM
zenith hazel
well if we're going off of stats alone then I can see the reason, but you also have to consider the terrain you're fighting them in
hollow shell
may as well may it really threatening if you go there before intended
cyan lagoon
The terrain will probably be the least of your concerns
hollow shell
well okay yes there's the Shadow Chests but there's no need to kill anything
cyan lagoon
Its covered in lava and the top is just flat
zenith hazel
there's relatively nothing dangerous around you besides other enemies while fighting demon eyes whereas you have to be careful with lava and such while fighting soul slurpers
quick ice
The terrain in the Crag is quite easy to walk in, easier than most of the Underworld
zenith hazel
but other than that, it's a valid argument
elder mist
Isn't crags' spawn rate like, higher than most other places
cyan lagoon
So out of most times, the average player will just fly over it or build a platform
quick ice
True, I didn’t think about terrain but the stats are still low and need a buff in Hardmode to make them able to survive more than a few seconds
elder mist
So you get constantly enemies thrown at you a lot more often than at night / regular underworld
quick ice
Spawn rate doesn’t make it that much harder in my experience
elder mist
To be fair the current experience they are easy to kill
If they're significantly tankier and deal more damage the difference is going to be a lot more notable
quick ice
If they die easy alone they’ll still die easy if there’s 5 of them, but you might get hit 1 time if you don’t have splash damage or high attack speed
They don’t need to be super-tanks, just enough so that they can live long enough to threaten the player
For soul Slurper an extra 40-60 HP in normal (80,120 in expert) would help quite a bit
hollow shell
It's a bit difficult for me to get reference but the spawn rate in the Crags isn't that high compared to other Calamity biomes
The only biome with a lower spawnrate is the Sulphurous Sea
Astral and Abyss are higher, Sunken Sea is the same
(If I'm reading Terraria's source code correctly, the spawn rates in most vanilla biomes are actually higher than Crags)
tired haven
Shouldn't be 
The measure is "the smaller the number the higher the spawns" iirc, right?
In code that is
hollow shell
Yeah when I say "higher" I'm talkin bout smaller numbers
tired haven
Yeah alright then
hollow shell
I'll look into this more later, gtg
tired haven
Weird that I always felt crag having loads of spawns compared to other biomes
Also cya
quick ice
I always felt it had lots of Scryllars
tired haven
Maybe it is suppressed by underworld, which has definitely one of highest spawnrates in hm?
quick ice
Yeah I think so
rugged mist
crag being overridden by underworld has been a trend in the past
tired haven
Mmm, I mean in spawnrates mostly (though that also was a thing lel)
If there are several instances/biomes overlapping, the highest spawnrate is taken
(that's why jungle is so effective for building mob farms anywhere)
quick ice
Mhm
Problem with high spawnrates though is it doesn’t make a biome more fun/difficult, just more chaotic by not giving you a break
void kelp
from my (anecdotal) experience, the most you get swarmed is when you enter the biome, aka when you’re partially in the hell biome
tired haven
I mean
Small spawnrate but bosses spawning isn't very fun either
It's about the balance compared to your other gameplay, intent of the biome and overall suppression you get when combining enemy difficulty with how often they appear to bite your ass off
quick ice
Yeah
I agree there, but I think Brimstone falls more into the tanky-enemy lower spawnrate area based off of its lore of being the ruins of an Underworld City, as well as it’s theme making it sound very barren and empty
tired haven
Hmm, that's fair, actually
I agree
Now I wonder if there is a way for biome to override hm underworld spawnrate
Maybe enemies could cost more in system so you never get more than 3-4 around, though they will still appear in a second
quick ice
Something like that would be interesting
hollow saffron
i feel like there should be a minor buff to all skeleton-based enemies post skeletron and another similar buff to all slime-based enemies post-SG
etc with other themed bosses
radiant meadow
Why though
Astral enemies get a buff after aureus because most of them drop new weapons
hollow saffron
fair point
there wouldnt be a reason then
besides it would be very subtle anyway so why bother
quick ice
If every enemy got buffs for revengeance mode it’d be more noticeable
tired haven
Skeletons getting a buff post-skelly won't be really noticeable
hollow saffron
yeah
quick ice
I’m surprised they don’t get a buff there, considering calamity buffs up all of its bosses so it can fix Terrarias balance
tired haven
Since it only would matter for those in caves and it's still only 1 type of enemy here, along with bats, worms and such
proven tide
@wary flume why?
wary flume
Well I have no idea how things are going and I feel like it would be a goodd thing for our multiplayer people
I hit enter accident;y
zenith hazel
so... is this a class suggestion?
quick ice
It seems like it
it'd be better to get some Thorium-Calamity cross-content for healer though
quick ice
cross content or a new class?
rugged mist
calamity in general isnt really set up in a way that would let a healer class work tbh
wary flume
How so
quick ice
how so?
there's always people who do Multiplayer, so I can't see why Healer from Thorium wouldn't work with them if Calamity was enabled
zenith hazel
the main problem lies in multiplayer
ruby cobalt
have fun healing up people with 10 hp per heal when things slap you for 300
rugged mist
yeah
zenith hazel
also yeah, things hit hard as hell around endgame
wary flume
Then don't get hit every 2 seconds it isn't hard
rugged mist
youre generally encouraged to minimize getting hit at all too
ruby cobalt
5Head
zenith hazel
not getting hit on multiplayer sounds fun
rugged mist
also imagine giving bosses a multiplayer buff and still only having one player actually focusing on damage
quick ice
fair point, but if Calamity did cross-content with Thorium they could make its own Healer-Content Post ML to fit into its balance
wary flume
It is also sometimes hard to not get hit on multiplayer, Because projectiles sometimes don't exist on your end so you take damage from invisible sources
I find when joining a host from anywhere in the world I can't see all the projectiles
zenith hazel
exactly, so it's just damage left and right, seemingly at random intervals as well
wary flume
So maybe somehow make it a class that only works on multiplayer idk
quick ice
¯_(ツ)_/¯
zenith hazel
there's no plan to make one rn afaik, and you can't really suggest an entirely new class either
wary flume
I have had many deathmode runs end at Post-Moonlord because it gets too hard and taking 500+ damage from certain attacks which you cannot see is very painful
quick ice
making healer stuff isn't an issue right now
quick ice
the Devs primary focus should be fixing Rogue so it makes sense to be a new class and getting Draedon out so people can stop complaining about wanting another boss
hollow shell
oof someone deleted it mid-discuss?
proven tide
apparently
zenith hazel
yeah it was basically a class suggestion anyway
zenith hazel
I accidentally removed it like right before he edited it, woops
terse sundial
Healer class cross content
bitter topaz
quick ice
it was to suggest a healer class
bitter topaz
here's what it was rover
hollow shell
I see.
queen delta
I mean support/medic isnt a bad idea
quick ice
but we don't need it, and Thorium already has healer
queen delta
It just is already done by thorium and calamity already has to worry about rogue
wary flume
Rogue easy 😄
hollow shell
Yeah that does somewhat violate a Don't
zenith hazel
sorry if I deleted it too quickly though
hollow shell
That doesn't mean we can't have any more alternative healing items
(and yeah try not to be so hasty, Brav)
queen delta
Yeah items that are focused mainly on being support/medic for other players would be nice to have
To make up for the bug-fest that is mp
rugged mist
it would be hard to fit them into calamity's balance system though without making them too weak or too strong
wary flume
Yeah it would be easy ngl
Calamity if you are good you shouldn't get hit as frequently so having the healer do some healing would help diminish the damage from invisible projectiles
It wouldn't matter if it was weaker
rugged mist
but the healer player still has to be staying alive on their own that whole time and keeping track of both the boss and the other player
wary flume
Could have some self healing capabilities
rugged mist
and again having a player focusing on support is essentially halving your dps against bosses which are buffed from being in multiplayer
wary flume
Damage buffs?
rugged mist
health
wary flume
from "Support"
rugged mist
well
again it just seems like it would be heavily underutilized
and devs probably wouldnt want to put a whole lot of time and effort into something which nobody would ever use
quick ice
Doesn’t matter
If you want healer download Thorium
Devs have much more important things to deal with right now than making unnecessary content that only some will like
I myself like the idea of healer, just Calamity doesn’t need it
rugged mist
yeah the only thing that makes it harder (excluding bugs and whatnot) is needing to get twice as many resources if you want to have a similar build to whoever youre playing with
which can be a pain in the ass especially for more complex recipes
wary flume
A few QOL mods and it isn't even that bad
tired haven
Oh, btw, sors, while you are here, seems like underworld hm spawnrate is why people remember crags to have lots of spawns but in the code it should be not
wary flume
Hey CrabBar 😄
hollow shell
I assume both Underworld and Crag spawnrate changes occur simultaneously, stacking
cuz Underworld isn't a biome, it's a layer, defined by worldheight
tired haven
Only the highest is taken iirc, but underworld by itself has insane spawnrate
(the same as celestial pillars)
proven tide
@steep island interacting with omniscience/hunter how?
hollow shell
TIL snow biome spawn rate takes the intensity of the weather into account
steep island
They'd show up with hunter too
proven tide
oh cool
hollow shell
Add a reason.
steep island
ah
proven tide
also why do crag enemies spawn for all players if one is near the crags
sit at spawn and get swamped by scryllars because seq's grinding hell
not the first world this has happened (something like the third)
hollow shell
Multiplayer homo iirc
proven tide
damn
hollow shell
... I think I see the reason, actually
sand umbra
and on today's episode of "why redcode is a good meme"
hollow shell
actually it's Fabcode
proven tide
not, yannow, abyss, piss, sunken sea
hollow shell
I thought I was onto something but instead I was on crack
proven tide
pin when
queen sail
Sors committed brain moment
hollow shell
I think my train of thought was leading in the right direction
cuz almost all NPCs check for if the player is "safe" (in a town, I assume), and if so the spawn rate condition returns 0
Some NPCs don't check for safety but only check for if you're in the right biome. If you're not in the biome, return 0.
Crag enemies do this, among others.
The issue might be fixed if they also checked if you're safe
proven tide
regardless of where i am it happens
it gets funny when rollers start throwing themselves off planetoids to get you
hollow shell
(my mistake came in thinking that Crag enemies had no returning of zero, but it was just formatted differently. There is a 0 return if you're not in the crag)
I think another problem might be that a lot of NPCs use vanilla (tMod?) spawncode as a base, whereas Crag enemies do not, they do it slightly more directly
Eidolists also do this, their spawn code is pretty similar to Crag enemies
proven tide
imagine having source access and the os to utilise it
hollow shell
so if you can get that shit to happen with an Eidolist too and very few other enemies
then we've probably got the problem pinpointed
hollow shell
You're not you.
hollow shell
u
proven tide
what i am is confused
hollow shell
You and Sequence brought this upon yourselves
This prolly shouldn't be #suggestions-discussion, I don't remember what started this
proven tide
tl;dr further testing needed
hollow shell
Astral enemies are almost similar to Eidolist and Crag enemies but they do it a lil differently
so iunno they might have the same effect
proven tide
i don't remember astral out-biome spawns
but i can't test without the other one
oh joy, lack of shift+enter
oh cool it was a mistake
hollow shell
This isn't news but vanilla source is a nightmare
hollow shell
I just can't help but mention it because I'm trying to find how playerSafe is defined and I'm just finding an information-less initialization and some functions using it
I have no idea how it decides what playerSafe is
proven tide
sand umbra
is it time for ya boi to delve back into the Terraria source jungle once more
proven tide
a player safe is called an inventory
sand umbra
to locate this information and define it
proven tide
race 
hollow shell
I have ascended
It's another name for flag3 in the NPC file
flag3 shows up 112 times in the NPC file
proven tide
then why not just
hollow shell
Cool, good.
proven tide
sand umbra
welcome to the wonders of redcode
where 98.6% of the variables are not given actual names
proven tide
to this day i don't know if it's named after the error colour red or red himself and i don't want anyone to clarify
sand umbra
yes
hollow shell
He does give it a name
He just gives it a name long after it's been defined because he needs to in order to use it between files
proven tide
so i can always say "it's called redcode for a reason" and people can interpret it as the alternative to either without me having to know what i'm talking about
*cough* anyway yes flag3
more like
crag3
hahaaaa is there any unique interaction between the crag bois and the flag boi :susthink:
hollow shell
It's used in enemy AIs
hearty yew
@steep island so i know everyone is going to say "haha hunter potion"
and while they're right
it would be cool to make them show up with both
rugged mist
Yeah that would be a pretty neat feature
proven tide
already asked regarding what the interaction would be
hunter showing them up as red but spelunker shows as yellow
no response yet
¯_(ツ)_/¯
hollow shell
We'll have to see once the programming happens
It could be done in a number of ways
steep island
they'd show up as yellow with spelunker and red as hunter, yes
proven tide
so
omniscience
and/or just having both effects
what takes priority
subclass love for its own sake? oooof
hearty yew
hunter would always take priority
because it highlights the whole enemy
spelunker sparkles would appear if you don't have hunter potion
hollow shell
Spelunker potion highlights ores
I think you're thinking of Spelunker glowsticks or the True Eye pet
proven tide
spelunker makes the entire thing highlight yellow, yes
like dangersense makes trap tiles red, spelunker makes valuable tiles yellow
makes telling the difference between diamonds and sapphires fun 😓
sand umbra
see I wanna support this kind of suggestion because there is actually no shortsword past Ele Shiv
but at the same time, it's subclass for the sake of subclass
so allow me to present the question as always: what practical purpose would there be to adding a few more shortswords to the game aside from the enjoyment of the subclass?
hollow shell
It's hard to advocate for a weapon of a certain subclass being added for any reason beyond the lack of that subclass
You can't say "melee is lacking" and still advocate specifically for shortswords
teal ibex
subclass is practically useful for replayability of the mod
zenith hazel
doesn’t melee already have a lot going for it anyway?
novel pebble
What exactly is wrong with expanding subclasses
hollow shell
Yeah but I was just using it as an example
teal ibex
melee is the big bloated afaik
sand umbra
melee is uber fat
teal ibex
nothing's wrong with expanding subclasses, it's just a system of priority
hollow shell
Because a lot of suggestions are just to add subclass weapons where there aren't currently
teal ibex
should we extend subclasses or should we extend rogue
hollow shell
when that's really
not
a great reason
teal ibex
because all the time you use on the former doesn't go towards the latter
zenith hazel
would it be really necessary rn though?
teal ibex
basically
zenith hazel
inb4 rogue subclasses suggestions
teal ibex
i mean, my only big qualm with subclass stuff is that yeah you can play through up to scal
sand umbra
because right now, Rogue is particularly lacking since it has no vanilla foundation to crutch itself up with
novel pebble
What would be a good reason to justify expanding a subclass in a certain area
teal ibex
but you literally have to use all the same weapons
proven tide
i played rogue three times consecutively
teal ibex
and get ZERO variety
proven tide
it's fun as fuck
novel pebble
Or is there none
hollow shell
The hostility toward subclass-for-sake-of-subclass suggestions mainly came from yoyos
people saying "a yoyo-only playthrough is really hard because ____, you should fix that by doing ____"
You're not supposed to do a yoyo-only playthrough you dip, the game wasn't designed around just yoyos. They're a tool belonging to a class with a lot of other weapons
sand umbra
there are several good justifications for expanding subclasses, if you think past the "because subclass" idea
- expansion to a class that may be lacking at that tier
- wider variety at that tier, which may be lacking in general
- more variety also equals better replayability
teal ibex
it is always a good idea to add more options for the player, i don't think there's any shortage of reasons why we should add them, it's just that they'll never outweigh the reason not to: it takes time and energy
that being said, calamity has been slowly devoting time to the subclass stuff which is nice
just suggest infinite time and we're good, actually
if it gets into the mod we can have all the subclasses 
sand umbra
rugged mist
hyperbolic time chamber
teal ibex
also not to mention how uninspired the suggestions were around that time, sors
hollow shell
"what the fuck is that!?" ~ Vegeta
teal ibex
everything was just yoyo bandwagon
sand umbra
funi yoyo meme haha xd
teal ibex
now guys, hear me out.
have you heard. of an ELEMENTAL YoyO??
thank you for your stars.
hollow shell
hhey hav u hav u gotten got a suggene stion for an exo claw plz i want th he thee exo claw giv me the claw
teal ibex
EXO CLAW 
sand umbra
honestly I just want people to
placid moth
what's an exo claw
sand umbra
actually present reasons for these suggs past "because subclass"
teal ibex
where is my exo dart gun. how could calamity do this
hollow shell
(IncognitoCreeper made a pretty cool exo-claw specific suggestion a long time ago tbh)
proven tide
welcome to the rOOM OF INFINITE BULLSHIIIT
sand umbra
because while I love subclasses --- hell, I am self-proclaimed Subclass Man
I know that there isn't a practical purpose at first and that one needs to present the greater point of adding such things if it's going to happen
proven tide
sorry i'm late to the dbza gag
sand umbra
it's why I always push the question of why a subclass should be expanded past the basic premise
teal ibex
i think in the case of the shortsword stuff
the class is just at the tipping point of viability for most of endgame stuff
which is a decent argument
but earlygame is still just pointless
sand umbra
insert funny copper shortsword meme
teal ibex
if you gave it a little more to top off the end, you'd have a full experience for it without too much effort
but we'll also never have a full-game experience for such an inherently bad weapon
rugged mist
Epic idea: upgrade to the copper shortsword called the copper shortersword it's like really short but it instakills all enemies and bosses
sand umbra
see you hear all these people about shortswords
but what the hell's anybody giving to spears
which are basically a straight upgrade to shortswords
teal ibex
more like copper shortened lifespan haha
sand umbra
they're used in the same general fashion except they're larger and can be properly aimed
proven tide
alright, hec, you think you're phunny?
teal ibex
i think i'm the opposite, quite frankly
proven tide
shortswords
hm
shivs are, yes, a meme
and i've avoided melee religiously for a long time so i can't quite gauge their viability
teal ibex
all the shivs were actually pretty heavily tested for viability, believe it or not
they are not easy to succeed with, but they do fall under viable for the most part
proven tide
yes yes projectile spam stick haha can we dial back the melee reliance on far-reaching projectiles? like, there's self-defeating, then there's that but uh
good to hear that they're balanced, but what do they actually add that warrants more
teal ibex
like i mentioned above, it's more about completing an almost fulfilling experience
hollow shell
I would fucking love if many melee weapons were revamped to be more short range
teal ibex
it's less "add x weapon" and more "finish x arc"
hollow shell
but that'd involve a lot of changes
hollow shell
God would blink.
proven tide
the raw power of that statement has left me unable to continue this conversation
i've completely lost my fucking plot
hollow shell
Glad to hear it
proven tide
train of thought dead, uh, hec say something about shivs and help me try again
hollow shell
Lucrecia is a shiv
teal ibex
make shiv. giv star.
teal ibex
honestly the greatest reason for me not wanting this suggestion is that we would somehow get another exo-melee weapon while all the other classes still have like 2 tops
void kelp
how would y’all feel about a suggestion that asks for what rover mentioned : reworking melee to be more close-ranged as a whole yo differentiate it from other classes
proven tide
something something melee bloat something something need more rounded padding something something fanbase divide something something melee good or bad something something imagine if shivs were just really big damage numbers and no projectiles
teal ibex
i love the idea
but i would never star a suggestion like that
that would be an insurmountable effort and would need a nuclear level game designer to make work
tired haven
Melee is so bloat it even bloats my thoughts about classes
proven tide
yeeees
tired haven
proven tide
i hear classes and i think balanced in melee's shadow and also rogue exists
rugged mist
Enormous brain suggestion: remove melee
void kelp
honestly yeah, that’s the only reason why the suggestion wouldn’t really stay afloat bc it asks for effectively a full rework
teal ibex
not just a full rework, but a full rework that would be impossibly difficult to pull off properly
proven tide
cool
void kelp
I’ll just wait for it to happen in the calamity stand-alone game tbh
teal ibex
Calamity: Other World
hollow shell
Bigger brain idea:
Instead of removing melee weapons and their effects, resprite & rename them and change their damage type to other classes
proven tide
calamity: c🅰🅰🅰🅰
hollow shell
Terror Blade would become a wand, etc
rugged mist
Actually yeah
hollow shell
owo
void kelp
ngl mirror blade should still become full mage or something
proven tide
rugged mist
I was considering that honestly, the respite rework etc, like
it not only removes bloat from melee but it adds things to other classes
proven tide
except summoner 😔
how many swords are guns/wands now?
exoblade should be a magic gun
hollow shell
Are there any melee weapons which could realistically be converted to summoner
hollow shell
I wanna say there's at least one
somewhere
Aight biggest brain idea:
Y'all ever play Symphony of the Night?
Turn some swords into summon weapons that float around and attack shit for you.
proven tide
elemental axe
queen sail
Speaking of EA
hollow shell
Yeah like that
queen sail
Why does a line of axes turn into a summon wep again
hollow shell
placid moth
why though
queen sail
proven tide
because fuck melee bloat and this is actually a very interesting content rounding solution
also, rover:
https://calamitymod.gamepedia.com/Melee_weapons
there ain't shit 😐
aotc is a wand and exoblade is a magic gun
and people call me mad for wanting a sword that's just a sword
rugged mist
Ok, so very rough skeleton of this suggestion
Rework/redesign some melee weapons to be weapons in non-melee classes instead
Reason: Melee is a bloated class and this would be a way of removing bloat from melee and adding content to other classes without removing content from the mod altogether
sand umbra
ayy, somebody actually agrees with me
proven tide
on what front
sand umbra
AotC
proven tide
yeee
sand umbra
hell, the Biome Blade line as a whole irks me, to be entirely frank
hollow shell
This suggestion's gotta be big and filled out
with examples and shit
gotta be a big opus
rugged mist
Yeah thats why i said very rough skeleton
sand umbra
there's nothing actually swordlike about the Biome Blade and its upgrades
proven tide
it's already planned for The Document™ which is not going to be worth the hype tbh
sand umbra
the only thing is that the projectile it fires gains a different debuff depending on your location
not even the sword itself
proven tide
might actually use the biome line as my example of melee bloat through arbitrary fluff designations
also debuffs rework when
2020: the class shift update
2021: the debuff update
2028: yerme
sand umbra
debuffs rework when redcode becomes not retarded and GlobalBuff actually lets you directly control what happens when a debuff is applied on an enemy
h
proven tide
hang on, what was that second part
sand umbra
you heard me
tired haven
It's a shame melee is bootleg mage
sand umbra
and GlobalBuff actually lets you directly control what happens when a debuff is applied on an enemy
proven tide
you went digging around debuffs the other day but never clarified what the issue ended up being
sand umbra
I'm pretty sure I did
proven tide
also yes, crabbo
well, you said that globalbuff bad, but not how/why it would interfere with just boosting some stats
sand umbra
GlobalBuff has very few hooks compared to the other Global TML classes, and none of those hooks allow for direct manipulation of a debuff's effect
queen sail
Tbf like
proven tide
can't access source myself because mac memes ;;
sand umbra
tl;dr GlobalBuff currently doesn't have a way to directly change a debuff's effect
sand umbra
which is infuriating because I entirely support a debuff rework
proven tide
but
queen sail
There is no other class besides ranged
proven tide
why
queen sail
:ech:
sand umbra
hell, I'd like to pull one off myself
but it's just not feasible without some insane code trickery or a LOT of copy debuffs and a lot of OnHit overrides, due to how little is available in that department currently
proven tide
backing up though
how the fuck do you put a debuff in
without being able to change the numbers once it's there
not even a zero or two on damage values?
sand umbra
that's a separate thing
ModBuff is different from GlobalBuff
it's complicated
but tl;dr we can't override the vanilla functions of debuffs
because of how it works currently
we can only add to them
rugged mist
im tempted to post the melee rework suggestion rn and just edit it as it develops further but that would probably make it less appealing in general
sand umbra
don't post it until it's developed fully
rugged mist
yeah
rugged mist
i dont wanna list too many specific examples, because i dont want it to seem like im just saying "change these ones specifically" or anything, but i more want to just give a general example of how it could be executed
sand umbra
I mean we've been staring down the barrel of a very good example already
the entire Biome Blade line
rugged mist
yeah that's a fair point
sand umbra
I'm not specifically against swords firing projectiles but I think the big thing of it is
Calamity swords fire projectiles on every swing
whereas vanilla swords actually have a cooldown on their projectiles
the most notable examples are the Ice Blade and Enchanted Sword, two rather common things to hunt down pre-boss in the vanilla game
they even have a helpful little "blip!" sound when they're ready to fire again
sand umbra
I'm discounting Meowmere and Star Wrath for the purpose of the prompt because they didn't need a cooldown on their projectiles
as they are, in the base game, balanced around ML's drops being the best of the best
rugged mist
Yeah projectiles on every swing also just seems like, you basically have a mage weapon that you dont need to spend mana on
which i guess would also prob be the main reason people would oppose such a rework, since it's placing a cost on utilizing a weapon which previously had none
and also possibly messing with like class builds and such
void kelp
I personally would love that or at least implement some way to make melee weapons shooting things less prevalent
proven tide
i sleep but @ me when discussions get good so i can read the chat backlogs in the morning
3am be like
On the plus side, any given comedy bit I watch or see sends me into fits of giggles, so that's something
jovial spire
92 stars in 18 hours, nice
rugged mist
i guess an issue with reworking the biome blade line in particular would be having the aotc be a combination of a melee and non-melee weapon into only one or the other
sand umbra
Apotheosis
rugged mist
fair point
sand umbra
literally combines half the Devourer's drops and Cosmic freaking Discharge into a mage weapon
rugged mist
yeah
sand umbra
also, Ele Axe coming from a line of axe upgrades --- which are predominantly melee in nature
rugged mist
yeah i suppose its far from unheard of
Do you think the getting rid of melee bloat and adding to other classes thing is good enough of a reason?
queen sail
Tbf Apotheosis’ dog drop components are just there for theming tbh
Same for things like Kelvin Catalyst and Never Getting a Buff
rugged mist
well yeah but regardless of reasoning its still combining weapons of varied classes into a weapon for a single class
which is what would happen if the biome blade line were altered to be not melee
and elemental axe is still a wacky thing in general
carmine spindle
So, the elemental shiv suggestion, maybe a cosmic schortchword would be a nice addition
the shortswords die out once you beat Doggo, and I think they are pretty fun to use
hollow shell
I'm sure it can be done
rugged mist
It can probably be done and since it's a small handful of enemies doing it for each one individually probably wouldnt be too difficult assuming it can be done at all
radiant meadow
would it have to be a special function of some sort?
since spelunker affecting enemies is not a vanilla thing afaik
queen delta
I guess my patron item really will be used it seems
quick ice
Being able to see the fire-tornados would be a nice QoL Change
shut pollen
thats what i thought.
hollow shell
The reason could be a bit more fleshed out
You could mention how it'd be easier for players to judge how close they are to running into the borders without actually needing to be next to them
shut pollen
yeah probably should...
lost agate
(also everyone refers to those as rainbow tornados or border tornados)
hollow shell
(or if you wanna be correct about it, infernadoes)
lost agate
(right)
hollow shell
not how I wouldve done the suggestion but it's valid I suppose.
civic pond
oh dear
zenith hazel
@mighty jewel class suggestions aren’t allowed, read the suggestion don’ts doc
don’t type in separate messages in suggestions too please
discuss your suggestions here next time
hearty plaza
:/
mighty jewel
@zenith hazelok
mighty jewel
Add a new class true melee(just like rogue), I suggest having new feature when wearing true melee set to make the user more Tanky and damaging but have the bonuses removed if the player switches/attacks with a non true melee weapon and having a damage penalty to them as well, maybe 75% to non melee weapons and 50% non true melee melee weapons.my reason for this is that terraria has left a hole for true melee fans/users just like throwing and since calamity added rogue I don't see why not support true melee players, this is because more often than not, true melee players need to take damage while dealing damage and thus there must be some special effects to compensate for having to get hit more often, look at crabBar's true melee playthrough and you will know what i mean, he had to use jam to kill a boss(yharon) lol
zenith hazel
that’s still a class suggestion
mighty jewel
Where do I post this sorry, I'm still new here
hollow shell
True melee is already a concept in the mod
boosted by stuff like DoG's lore item and Fungal Symbiote
ashen warren
How would true melee even really be viable for scal-
hollow shell
If you want True Melee to be expanded, don't suggest that it be a whole new class
zenith hazel
also you should look at the suggestion “don’t”s doc in pins to know what not to post next time
hollow shell
Yeah ^
mighty jewel
@hollow shell but it doesn't help where you need to be at dangerously close range to yharon and dog to do DMG where more than often you get hit which may injure/kill The player
@hollow shellok
Is general talk ok?
hollow shell
No this is the right place to discuss your suggestion
as indicated by the channel name :P
mighty jewel
Lol,but I can't suggest a class🤔
ashen warren
Isn’t teratoma sold after the perfs already...?
hollow shell
You cannot.
ashen warren
Or after hive mind
hollow shell
Because that's a lot of effort to Calamity to undertake and it likely won't happen because of a community suggestion
hollow shell
hence why it was disallowed
because tbh it's a waste of time to suggest
frosty kindle
suggesting an entire new sub-class or class would put a lot of strain and work onto developers as they'd have to cater for that whole new section of content
See also: Throwing class
civic pond
I want to discuss adding something that would make true melee viable in some way
but its a little unrealistic
civic pond
I mean yes i'd like to get close to a boss without instant death but its not a priority right now
so i'll just settle for shield bonking
hollow shell
If your concern is that true melee is too risky cuz you get so close to the boss
Then you can suggest that we add some defensive equipment specifically suited for true melee somehow, and describe your reasoning
Don't need to be specific on exactly what that equipment would be
just gotta suggest we add something
civic pond
I was thinking along the lines of a dash or an expansion to shield bonking to make it slightly easier
mighty jewel
@hollow shellthat will do if that works
frosty kindle
oh yeah SubZero, there's not much need to ping people who are already looking in the channel you're in as well, they'll see your message
generally pings only used for if something important is needed to be looked at if they're away/offline
hollow shell
Yeah you can just say the name of the person instead of @ing them if you're mid-convo, and you wanna make sure your message is directed to the right person
queen delta
Yeah i’ve seen you unnecessarily pinging everyone you’re talking to
hollow shell
(They only started really talking here a few days ago)
karmic stone
I don--
signal prairie
No one saw that
karmic stone
What
signal prairie
it's not ready yet
karmic stone
Understandable
frail creek
Am I just salty, or was Cryogen's teleport phase accidentally buffed too much? If any boss needed a buff, it was him, but compared to the rest of the fight, it's incredibly difficult to dodge now. The faster teleports mean less time between ice blasts, so the screen gets covered very quickly. I was going to propose lessening the amount of projectiles, but I want to make sure it's not just me.
civic pond
Honestly though, I never enjoyed cryogen having that many projectiles
elder mist
Teleports in general are a bit wonky after the new update.
civic pond
At least they added an indicator for skeletron iirc
karmic stone
Tbh i've also felt like the teleport hell along with the projs you need specific movement to dodge is kinda wonky
elder mist
Turns out they needed a bit more polish across every boss that teleported and not just a few.
So you may or may not struggle with skeletron, cryogen, signus and the like.
civic pond
Honestly this sugg couldn't hurt
karmic stone
Tbh the only problem the Mini Scourges pose is adren interrupting
They die within the first 30ish seconds with proper gear as well
ashen warren
I don't find them a problem at all just don't get hit lol but perhaps for consistency yeah
foggy kindle
I mean an icon for both of them would help somewhat... Cuz for some reason they spawn most of the time from the higher platforms and surprise attack from above when you spawn DS on a tall platform
formal cobalt
oh, I would love to have an
proven tide
karmic stone
Understandable
bronze beacon
Because
bronze beacon
No
proven tide
c) mod doesn't like wasting effort on useless vanity items due to time consumption memes in the shadow of draedon
karmic stone
-Specific stats
-Specific item
civic pond
But seriously overall its not necessary
civic pond
bruh
terse sundial
Specific item momentum
proven tide
hollow shell
That.
proven tide
they literally have one
karmic stone
Eidolic megaphone smh my head
civic pond
hollow shell
That mod there adds an Eidolon pet
proven tide
so to compile the last one minute of responses:
terse sundial
Couldve just linked to #other-discords
karmic stone
you should draft your suggs here before actually posting them most of the time
terse sundial
now you've sent mod notifs off smh
civic pond
thats unrealistic add
karmic stone
bronze beacon
But the eidolon wyrm is pretty much the ghost leviathan but little different
proven tide
oh my god you actually said ghost leviathan
bronze beacon
I thought it was an cool idea
karmic stone
bronze beacon
No
civic pond
bruh,..,
bronze beacon
What
civic pond
Ok but overall its not a necessary thing and the devs have higher priorities at the moment
proven tide
a) why
b) calamity's vanities
c) mod doesn't like wasting effort on useless vanity items due to time consumption memes in the shadow of draedon
d) specific suggestion
e) reference for its own sake
f) consult before post
anything i missed?
terse sundial
At this point im just going to delete it since it's a specific item suggestions that is just there for a reference
hollow shell
Mm..
civic pond
isn't it already getting nerfed? or did i get that wrong.
wary flume
I am unsure I am new here
civic pond
Well it would be a good idea to check here first
before posting it in #suggestions-voting
wary flume
Probably but still bloody op item XD
ashen warren
getting
Already was I believe
proven tide
yes
civic pond
really?
karmic stone
It already was
proven tide
yeet
civic pond
im surprised
proven tide
1.4.2.105
ashen warren
This update.
karmic stone
the homing projectiles were cut down to 50% of their damage
proven tide
the lingering projectiles were nerfed
civic pond
I see.
wary flume
Lingering stars do heaps of damage still
ashen warren
anyway yes, hard agree
wary flume
I update my mods every time I log in
fervent zealot
it isn't on the mod browser
karmic stone
From the browser?
wary flume
I know
civic pond
Also its already rev+ exclusive isn't it
ashen warren
Half of 6k dps is still 3k
proven tide
and that's not including buzzsaw memes
civic pond
its viable for clone and almost further?
lost agate
rev exclusive with lots of farming yes
proven tide
wait was buzzsaw killed
civic pond
ashen warren
buzzsaw was kill yes
lost agate
and if it gets nerfed theres a chance people wont make it anymore
wary flume
You can Zerg pot nail a bunch of enemies then spawn a boss and still have a huge damage start
sand umbra
a weapon needs to be worth the farming required for it
fervent zealot
on that note why don't we buff apotheosis
sand umbra
it's infuriating enough to farm out the Cryo Stone once for the Heart of the Elements
civic pond
At this point i think its fine
wary flume
Doesn’t take that long to farm for at all
civic pond
🤔
sand umbra
you have never experienced the hell of RNJesus refusing to give you the Cryo Stone then
wary flume
I have
civic pond
or any stone for that matter iirc
karmic stone
btw, why do the most of the materials for HotE have 10% drop chances, but feel like it's more near to 1%?
ashen warren
If it carried you through every other mech boss and had some use against clone then it'd be fine.
karmic stone
is this confirmed to not be a bug? (???)
sand umbra
consider that with Kelv Cat you effectively need the Stone twice since you're also likely to use it for the HotE
ashen warren
But last I checked you could use the thing to deus.
wary flume
I was able to farm cryogen almost immediately in hard mode (deathmode)
sand umbra
and that the weapon is Revengeance exclusive due to requiring two Frost Flares
overall, it requires a fair bit of farming
wary flume
I must just lose track of time then lol 😂
ashen warren
Farming the easiest HM boss isn't exactly hard.
wary flume
I know what I was trying to say
sand umbra
Neither is farming Destroyer if you have anything worth its salt against multi-segment bosses.
wary flume
Destroyer on expert mode :0
wary flume
I just don’t like the idea of the kelvin being stronger than post-planter rogue items
Especially for a weapon you can get almost immediately in hardmode
Phone is gonna die F
civic pond
actually that reminds me
sand umbra
f
ashen warren
Kelvin has a learning curve those weapons don't, however the time it takes to reach plantera means you should know how to use it.
cedar reef
i was walled by mech bosses for weeks, just updated my game, crafted kelvin catalyst, and beat them all first or second try
sand umbra
a Rev-locked weapon that takes a fair bit of farming to obtain from a certain mech-tier is viable up until Clone, yes
civic pond
well when you put it that way
cedar reef
none of the other weapons i crafted with hallowed bars even seem close to as good as it
:/
civic pond
its still not that much different
unless you happen to be playing in expert or normal
wary flume
It is still a very strong weapon, I was stuck on DM Prime because I didn’t know his last changes kelvin made the process easy
sand umbra
reminds you a lot of another weapon with similar requirements, doesn't it
wary flume
Dunno
wary flume
What weapon shall this be
sand umbra
SHPC
wary flume
Fire fixes things
civic pond
I was gonna say cosmic discharge
wary flume
Burn it
sand umbra
the only drop from the Mechs worth its salt
civic pond
but yeah that too
spiral olive
does kelvin need to die again? 
civic pond
I was gonna say
sand umbra
it's the legendary Destroyer drop
spiral olive
I will personally kill it
sand umbra
and it has about the same viability streak as Kelvin Catalyst
civic pond
Please do.
civic pond
wary flume
Maybe make it a super rare drop 😐 it is a cool weapon just a tad op for how easy it is to get
sand umbra
honestly, I'd be cool with Kelv Cat being a leg drop
civic pond
I was honestly thinking legend cryo drop
which would kind of give it an excuse to be that powerful..?
dusty stirrup
We'd need to ask the patreon for that
wary flume
2% battery
civic pond
oh yes that.
sand umbra
given there's precedent for leg drops starting to exist around mech tier and--
oh yeah
Kelv Cat is a patron wep
civic pond
Balancing conflicting with the patreon sounds confusing
void kelp
I feel like balance should override patron but idk
civic pond
I mean in the end
spiral olive
Oh it is
dusty stirrup
I'm mostly talking about removing the recipe
civic pond
its the players choice to USE kelvin
hm
I guess we'll have to hold off on those kinds of changes
wary flume
Bumble do you know many players who will come across an op weapon and not use it?
spiral olive
Balance comes first and foremost, the recipe, while yes is part of the balance, and the weapon itself should be stronger because of it, but it shouldn’t be getting kill times that are 60% lower
wary flume
And how many people do you know
sand umbra
I can tell you right now that a good chunk of people, if they're anything like me, will stick with a weapon not because it's powerful but because they like how it looks
and a fair few things at mech tier start looking a bit cooler than Kelv Cat, tbf
or, better yet, at Clone tier+
spiral olive
Just one more thing I’d like to clarify, are you on the latest patch while using kelvin?
sand umbra
which if you ask me is about where the weapon should start to fall off
wary flume
Yes
civic pond
I'd propose making it a legend drop, but for now i think its mostly fine the way it is
wary flume
I update mods asap
sand umbra
and you downloaded the latest version from #mod-downloads, correct
wary flume
Yaw
dusty stirrup
We can't just change the recipe without asking the patreon, but rebalancing it is fine
queen sail
Kelvin becoming a 🦵 drop sounds alright considering that legendaries are p much just nostalgia content atm
Would give them smth new
civic pond
I mean when a weapon is viable for multiple bosses
spiral olive
civic pond
sounds like a leg drop to me
sand umbra
can someone explain to me again what Vesuvius is supposed to do/be
wary flume
Phone gonna die have a good conversation guys
queen sail
@sand umbra be good when you cheat it in prehm
rugged mist
🕺
spiral olive
I was under the impression that kelvin was alright after this update dropped but if it’s not then mmmm
queen sail
spiral olive
whatever, if it still needs adjustment then it’ll get adjustment
void kelp
Vesuvius is great if you’re playing masorev
spiral olive
And honestly it’s just as busted as it is because it’s bootleg Celestus
civic pond
figures..
sand umbra
summons 8 ice shards every time it hits something
sand umbra
those ice shards then home in on whatever unfortunate sap looks at them funny
spiral olive
Celestus blades home too
queen sail
Wait do they
spiral olive
But they’re fast so you don’t see it
sand umbra
celestus is speedy mcfastfuck
spiral olive
It’s basically a hardmode celestus
sand umbra
Kelv Cat is slower and the ice shards wait a moment before homing in
ashen warren
The wait is the learning curve.
spiral olive
the actual boomerang doesn’t home I’m pretty sure, just the shards
wary flume
It is only the shards
ashen warren
Nerf that to a nice 3-4s and see if it's still as broken
sand umbra
that's what I said 
spiral olive
And I’ll check it myself on the test version on every fucking boss if I have to just go get people to shut up about it
sand umbra
this is like
civic pond
sand umbra
opposite Oblit momentum
wary flume
But when you are able to hit multiple enemies and line the up pretty high dps
ashen warren
Kelvin vs deus, try it.
sand umbra
instead of nobody shutting up about it being trash, nobody's shutting up about it being awesome
also, with all deus respect
Deuces isn't exactly a great example
because Deuces dies in a flat minute to quite literally everything that can pierce in the first place
wary flume
Dues is easy with it so much crap to hit
queen sail
Suggestion: Unwormify AD
ashen warren
It also does work on ravager and golem
proven tide
grand guardian memes
queen sail
proven tide
10% damage
ashen warren
Has good synergy with bulky hitbox girl.
sand umbra
if you say it does work on LC I'm going to slap you
ashen warren
It works on LC 
sand umbra
it's not because Kelv Cat shouldn't work by that point, mind you
it's because LC dies in 2 seconds to everything, period
proven tide
kelv cat shouldn't work by that point
ashen warren
It has some really good synergy with plantera phase 2
proven tide
we killed lc with prismalline i'm pretty fucking sure kelv can do better
proven tide
sand umbra
precisely my point
Deuces is too vulnerable to piercing and LC is the squishiest fuck in the world
so naturally, things that should not work by any means suddenly become viable
ashen warren
Duke is sadly too fast
proven tide
doesn't mean it's not a decent weapon, though
again, it slapps ravager into the fucking sun
ashen warren
and golem, plantera, leviathan, aureus maybe
sand umbra
aureus is fat
proven tide
why is it so hard
sand umbra
aureus? hard?
spiral olive
reduce ice shards to 4, problem solved
proven tide
to be fair we had double hp
spiral olive
sand umbra
sorry I can't hear you over the P90 actually functioning now that its damage is beefed up a bunch
ashen warren
remove ice shards
sand umbra
ashen warren
sand umbra
spiral olive
Remove kelvin
proven tide
nano summon when
zenith hazel
wasn’t kelvin already nerfed as heck anyway?
civic pond
apparently not enough
spiral olive
Supposedly
civic pond
👀
spiral olive
sand umbra
is it time for research project momentum
proven tide
who wants to do the actual testing
civic pond
Tbh reducing the amount of ice shards doesn't sound bad
spiral olive
I’ll figure that out for myself
void kelp
dps testing time iirc
sand umbra
do I need to use my big brain to compute how viable this thing is for like everything
proven tide
thomas just make sure shucks isn't here to tell you you're fighting the boss wrong
sand umbra
in Hardmode
ashen warren
i mean, maybe I'm just a god at using kelvin
but that thing is big good
zenith hazel
brb giving myself beta tester
spiral olive
Brav you have test access anyway smh
civic pond
how can you screw that up
proven tide
thomas
spiral olive
And we’ll need the help coming soon anyway 
zenith hazel
I probably should ask Fab some time soon anyway
ashen warren
hey I can do that 
wary flume
Rogue is fun 😄
sand umbra
it is time for research project hours
civic pond
here we go again
proven tide
imagine being good
civic pond
eah
wary flume
Lol ok
ashen warren
Kelvin research
proven tide
this post was made by 1500 calamity hours and still d-tier player
sand umbra
wary flume
Also fun fact about the kelvin, I tend to suck at getting adrenaline yet I am still charging on with ease (Deathmode)
sand umbra
okay yeah I fail to see how this thing is OP
or at least, compared to previous Kelv Cat, anyway
seems to be considerably less powerful than other options for Clone
sand umbra
about 3 and a half minutes on Clone
I'm confident that's half me being bad at aiming against two Speedy McFastFuck brothers and half the weapon starting to fall off
queen delta
Yeah lets not make an epic weapon obsolete
lost agate
3 and a half minutes is barely below average/intended kill times so yeah, dont see it as being that op
zenith hazel
what about mechs?
lost agate
That it kills other bosses after clone with decency, sure, but so could stuff like brimblade but you never see people ask for a nerf
proven tide
brimblade good tbh
sand umbra
what about mechs?
sand umbra
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E_XFKYoBub6AZH8udZlP2VR1qy8XeS3TVE-GYoSpdVg/edit?usp=sharing
I think I'll let the numbers talk for me here
tl;dr AS and Desu don't fucking exist, everybody else has pretty reasonable times given what the weapon is
zenith hazel
average gear right?
sand umbra
yeet
zenith hazel
because 30 second kills on both dest and AS seems... how do I say it... overkill
lost agate
Its a piercing boomerang that spawns projectiles every hit, what did you expect
zenith hazel
yeah but with average gear and that low of times, wouldn’t that be too much?
lost agate
If its nerfed more it may end up like old apoth