suggestions-discussion

[sand marlin]

Oh right celestial uses any because it's the first tracers

[gentle hound]

and elysian tracers require the previous tier (providence)'s wings and cosmilite bars

[sand marlin]

Elysian Tracers don't even match post DoG

[gentle hound]

so seraph tracers using the previous tier's wings (silva) and auric bars makes perfect sense

[sand marlin]

Elysian theming is not a DoG thing

[gentle hound]

based on the other recipes

[sand marlin]

Elysian Tracers would probably get moved down to post Prov if I had to guess as they are already pretty bad compared to the tier's wings anyway

[gentle hound]

whether they're balanced appropriately or not for post-DOG, they are a post-dog recipe and are set at that point in progression

[sand marlin]

So just suggest elysian tracers to be moved accordingly to fix the issue because it doesn't fit where it is

Whereas seraph fits

[gentle hound]

but that's not the issue

[sand marlin]

It is though

You're saying seraph fits elysian's consistency but elysian is wrong here

Elysian does not fit post DoG

[spark ravine]

I mean, god slayer hoverboard is a thing that will happen eventually, not sure how that'll affect tracers

[gentle hound]

the issue is seraph uses on-tier wings and additional items to create an arguably worse alternative

[sand marlin]

It's not arguably worse, again

[gentle hound]

it makes sense to use previous tier wings in the next tier's boots

[sand marlin]

They are good alternatives for what they do

Wings upgrade into the boots because the tracers literally uses the wings except it's boots so the wings part of the accessory is worsened

[gentle hound]

but the recipe using the wings as a material implies the boots are a direct upgrade to the wings

[sand marlin]

You are not upgrading the wings

You are upgrading the tracers

[gentle hound]

and losing your on-tier wings in the process

[spark ravine]

the recipe can either be viewed as an upgrade to tracers or a sidegrade to wings

[sand marlin]

You can shimmer it back if you don't like it

[gentle hound]

which doesn't happen with the other tracers

[sand marlin]

Simple enough

[sand marlin]

Again, Elysian is not fitting where it is

And Celestial is the first in the line

[gentle hound]

if elysian is moved, it faces the same issue

using the same tier item as an ingredient in a recipe for something that is not a direct upgrade

[sand marlin]

No it would just be a good alternative to its wings counterpart just like seraph's is
And if you do not prefer that alternative you can always shimmer it back

You are upgrading tracers anyway not the wings

The idea behind tracers entirely is not to be better than wings it's to have worse flight stats to compensate for being upgraded boots

[gentle hound]

and that makes sense for where elysian and celestial tracers are placed

using previous tier wings and current tier materials to upgrade your boots makes sense

[sand marlin]

I'm not gonna keep this up any longer

[tardy geyser]

Yeah i dont see the issue here

[drowsy plank]

silva wings dont work because seraph tracers dont look like them at all

this is the same situation as starmada and starmaggeddon

[sand marlin]

Yeah that's something I didn't even bring up

[spark ravine]

You want the raw flight time? keep the wings.

You want the better horizontal acceleration and bonus iframes? Make the tracers.

Find out you don't really like the tracers? Shimmer decraft it and get the wings back.

[royal tapir]

Shimmer was a valuable addition to Terraria

[gentle hound]

I mean if the takeaway here is 'seraph tracers are in the right spot and elysian tracers should be brought down for parity' then I guess sure

[bright crag]

Also, Drew's Wings and Seraph Tracers are meant to be equivalent options
They should be treated as much

[royal tapir]

Hi Stippy

[bright crag]

Hello

[royal tapir]

Elysian Tracers already have plans to be retiered anyways

[bright crag]

Yeah

[gentle hound]

I'm just saying it doesn't make sense for two recipes to use previous tier wings to make tracers, and the third to use same tier wings as an ingredient

[spark ravine]

post-prov or post-polter?

[sand marlin]

Celestial is any wings because it is the first in line

[gentle hound]

so if the parity goes in the other direction it does make sense

[drowsy plank]

not everything needs to or should have parity and celestial tracers and drews wings is one of those situations

[tardy geyser]

Ah i see, it seems like a small issue that doesnt really warrent a suggestion though imo

[sand marlin]

Okay let's uh consider this

Let's say celestial used lunar wings

What would it shimmer into then? Which of the four wings?

In case you crafted your recently made lunar wing into it

You would probably not get it back as easily as shimmering

[gentle hound]

celestial would use starboard in that case, or perhaps wings that most closely fit the design if that's a priority

drop off the boss

just like prov wings and drew's wings

[sand marlin]

You know what good point

Celestial Tracers should use Starboard

[gentle hound]

though I still think that doesn't make much sense, because it uses a same tier ingredient to make something that's not an upgrade
you're sacrificing your wings because you're expecting an upgrade to them

[sand marlin]

Except uh, the starboard doesn't exactly fit the tracers but it's the closest thing so far

[gentle hound]

yes shimmer exists now so it's not as bad

but it still doesn't make sense to me

[sand marlin]

You're still looking at this wrongly, tracers are a combination of wings and boots. You are simply upgrading your boots to have some flight capabilities, worse than actual wings because of course it wouldn't be that powerful it is an alternative to wings and an upgrade to boots

[spark ravine]

the sprites of the first two tracers peeves me so much

[sand marlin]

Well Seraph tier is at least very fitting so the rest will come with it

[bright crag]

You expect a sidegrade or an upgrade

Tracers are sidegrades

Which may or may not appeal to you, subjectively

[gentle hound]

yes, I understand that
but you would expect a crafting recipe to be a direct upgrade to the materials used to craft it

[bright crag]

You are basically framing them as strictly downgrades, which is not the case

[spark ravine]

I mean, the current elysian tracers does match its post-DoG theme (even if the name doesn't), I'm just not a fan of the wing sprite tbh

[sand marlin]

Yeah the name is the issue(and the stats )

[flat cipher]

Yet upgrading summoner slot expansion accessories results in a downgrade when it comes to the number of minion slots one has when moving up from tier to tier.

[bright crag]

How so?

[gentle hound]

it takes the wings, previous tier boots, and additional material to make an item that - while it might not be a downgrade in all aspects - is not objectively an upgrade either
it would make more sense for the items to shimmer into each other if they're meant to be alternatives

[sand marlin]

We've already explained why it's not a downgrade

Kind of pointless to bring it up again

[flat cipher]

That's a opinion you have, my opinion is its a downgrade.

[bright crag]

You can already get the wings back from Shimmer if you don't want the Tracers though

Or not craft Tracers to begin with

[sand marlin]

Funny label you've got there, unfortunately you are wrong

[flat cipher]

and so are you

[sand marlin]

Anyway combining accessories for a greater effect is never a downgrade

[tardy geyser]

It opens up more accessory slots though

[bright crag]

Making Tracers obtained solely through Shimmer swap would severely limit their design and obtainment

[frosty trellis]

(Which then gets a random iframe effect that is totally not broken whatsoever)

[sand marlin]

Because it saves up a slot and the combined accessory has greater effects than either of the ingredients

[flat cipher]

that's the point of upgrading accessories, to open accessory slots up. Not watch as the accessories combined become weaker.

try again.

[sand marlin]

It didn't become weaker

[bright crag]

How do accessories become weaker?

[flat cipher]

less minion slots is weaker.

try again.

[sand marlin]

It's not less minion slots

It's more minions slots

You're just wrong

[flat cipher]

2 + 3 != 4 of the upgraded accessory

try again.

[sand marlin]

4 + 2 = 6 slots

[fervent orbit]

youre saving an acc slot you actual neanderthal

[bright crag]

^

[gentle hound]

I agree - but if they're supposed to be equally viable options, why does one craft into the other?
it makes sense with elysian wings because you're using the previous tier's wings to upgrade them - previous tier wings+boots make current tier boots
same with celestial wings

[flat cipher]

again, that's the point. open a slot but NOT BECOME WEAKER.

[bright crag]

It is definitely not a downgrade, not only are you getting more slots than the isolated components have, but you are also freeing up an accessory slot

[flat cipher]

They become weaker.

[sand marlin]

Open up a slot which makes it stronger

Not weaker

[bright crag]

^

[frosty trellis]

Yeah

[fervent orbit]

U GET ANOTHER SLOT FOR AN ACCESSORY WITH MORE SLOTS

[bright crag]

You neglect the fact that having access to another slot is a bonus on its own

Feel free to use the components if you think you're better off with them :p

[flat cipher]

That is the entire point, yes it opens an accessory slot, but the combined accessory should NOT BECOME WEAKER WHICH TH AT IS MY POINT.

[fervent orbit]

do i need to explain how upgrading a 3 and a 2 minions accessory into a 4 which allows access to ANOTHER 2 minions accessory is good?

[flat cipher]

THE MATH DOES NOT ADD UP

TRY AGAIN.

[sand marlin]

Having quite a hard time believing this guy's ignorance ngl is this really a discussion or is he just making shit up

[wide river]

Accessories don't need to inherit every single effect of their downgrades, this includes minion slots in summoner accessories
If you kept every single slot along the upgrade process, you'd have 7 slots from Nucleogenesis, which is far more than should ever be from a single accessory
For reference, this is more than Silva armor's (the on-tier armor) minion slot bonus

[gentle hound]

what accessory are you even referring to?
a minion accessory that loses slots when it upgrades?

[bright crag]

Can you please stop saying "try again" and acting so needlessly stubborn

[frosty trellis]

You are trading:
Statis's Curse + Star Tainted which is:
3 + 2 minion slots
10 + 7% summon damage
Bunch of random debuffs
Explosions
Minion knockback +

For
Nucleo Genesis + Dark Sun Ring
4 + 2 slots
15 + 12% summon damage
Bunch of random debuffs
Explosions
A billion minion knockback
Life regen and defense

Excuse me?????????????????????????????????????

[fervent orbit]

it does add up

[sand marlin]

Statis' Curse + Star-Tainted Generator = Nucleogenesis and then you get to add Dark Sun Ring

[bright crag]

We're trying to have a normal discussion

[tardy geyser]

The upgrade isnt weaker, while it might not add the minion slots from its components its still an upgrade due to it opening up an accessory slot

[fervent orbit]

youre incapability of using common sense limits your ability to do simple thoughts

[wide river]

I don't think we need to insult them, that doesn't help

[sand marlin]

Oh wait Dark Sun Ring is one tier later probs, oh well you still have an extra slot doesn't really matter

I also had the upgrades wrong

[frosty trellis]

DSR is the same tier as nucleo

[bright crag]

The accessory doesn't become weaker because it is stronger than its components
It may not be as strong as you wish it was (being a literal sum of its components' effects), but it is definitely stronger

[fervent orbit]

dsr is the same tier as nucleogenesis

[gentle hound]

combining accessories and freeing up accessory slots is FAR more valuable than a single minion slot, as you can add far more than that with the freed space

[sand marlin]

Yeah I meant to put curse + gen = nucleo

[gentle hound]

and the combined accessory is unquesitionably stronger than any of its -individual- ingredients

but this doesn't matter at all to the subject at hand

the tracers are made with -two items- that are mutually exclusive, saving accessory slots is unrelated

elysian and celestial use weaker item+ weaker item to make an item that is objectively stronger than its individual parts

seraph tracers does not

[sand marlin]

Well I remembered what they were so bothered about so we can put this to a close
They were bothered as to why a 3 slots + 2 slot acc didn't equal 4, not that it was stronger or weaker or anything they really were bothered by that only and tried to justify it by calling it weaker which obviously is not true

A trivial thing to start this on

[wide river]

If we're only focusing on the minion slots then yes it's weaker
But this ignores every other advantage the combination has which makes it better than the components separately, so it's a bad comparison

[sand marlin]

Well what else are you gonna use to upgrade the boots to match the same viability level as that tier

Something of equal power

[fervent orbit]

no but u see nucleogenesis needs 7 minion slots to be good

[wide river]

Now I look at it that would actually provide more minion slots than Auric Tesla
Very balanced

[gentle hound]

just use the same formula as elysian tracers
weaker boots (celestial tracers) + weaker wings (profaned) = stronger boots
same thing for seraph
weaker boots (elysian) + weaker wings (silva) = stronger boots

you'll have a result that is objectively stronger than its individual parts

[sand marlin]

If you take out the cosmilite bars there's nothing stopping from elysian tracers to be post prov

Whereas seraph's matches its wings and the viability of its power

[gentle hound]

if you take out the luminite bars there's nothing forcing celestial tracers to be post-ML
I don't get your point there

[drowsy plank]

ur ignoring the second half of that sentence

[sand marlin]

Yeah because simply bars can't just make wings change form

So that is flawed

[gentle hound]

??

[sand marlin]

Either lunar wings or starboard should be in the recipe to match the tracers' forme and power

[gentle hound]

if elysian tracers are also moved down to match, yes

[sand marlin]

It does not matter what example you use from the mod if they are simply flawed

You are not using your own thoughts

You are using examples from the mod

[gentle hound]

though you would have the appearance issue from moving the tracers down too

if they no longer require cosmilite then it doesn't make sense for it to be purple, and would make more sense to appear with profaned-style wings

[sand marlin]

Cosmilite Hoverboard will be a thing

It will likely use that

And elysian tracers may need a sprite later

Elysian Tracers would be moved down to post Prov and the post DoG tracers would use that hoverboard

And the current elysian tracers sprite ^

[gentle hound]

spriting issues aside, because clearly either change would work better with a resprite in that case

[sand marlin]

Yes what you ask for also requires a resprite but it uses the flawed examples the mod currently has so it's better to do it this way

[gentle hound]

the 'viability of its power' isn't really clear in all fairness

[drowsy plank]

i mean to most people it is

[gentle hound]

can you clarify it a bit for me then?

[drowsy plank]

tracers give you a free slot and the strenght of boots, especially celestial who also randomly have a free iframe effect tacked on too

[sand marlin]

Seraph's

[gentle hound]

a free slot?

[drowsy plank]

oh did they switch them

yall were talking about em interchangably so im getting confused

[spark ravine]

built-in angel treads

[drowsy plank]

but yeah if seraph are the post yharon ones then yeah they give you a free slot by combining boots with angel treads

[sand marlin]

Celestial is after Moon Lord since it's Lunar, Seraph's is after Yharon because Drew's are angely

[drowsy plank]

okay couldnt remember

[north oracle]

it isn't really a free slot when noone ever uses treads post ML anyway

it's an alternative to wings

[spark ravine]

true

[gentle hound]

tracers are the direct upgrade to angel treads

[drowsy plank]

i use them both 🥹

[north oracle]

uh you're weird iirc

[drowsy plank]

yes i know

i also use soaring insignia the whole game

call me weird

[north oracle]

do you use ascendent now

[sand marlin]

We can talk about the actual viability of tracers later for now they are alternatives for what they do

[gentle hound]

as mentioned many times, the tracers and wings are intended to be viable alternatives of one another

[spark ravine]

cog is a mobility appreciator. Who knew?

[sand marlin]

By viability I mentioned earlier in the tiering sense not the actual usage

[gentle hound]

using tracers doesn't 'free a slot' because you are unable to use both wings and tracers

[drowsy plank]

anyway seraph are basically the flat out better option because of the iframes and the fact that the boss fights are much more limited in the scope of their fight area (scal, mostly, though exos are fairly horizontal bc of ares so tracers are still stronger there too, ignoring the iframes again being wacky lmao)

yes it does

[sand marlin]

As in you can't simply craft like elysian* tracers and a fledgling wings to make seraph's because that would not make sense in a progressive tiering sense

[drowsy plank]

bc to get the same benefits you would need to use wings and boots

meanwhile tracers are both in one

[north oracle]

at this point celestial are a bit weaker but a fine alternative for different fighting styles
elysian are bad and need a buff
seraph are better because iframes are broken as shit and fine control is very good for SCal + mayhem rungod cheese

[drowsy plank]

that's kinda their whole gimmick

[gentle hound]

the boots are meant to be the alternative to wings, the whole idea is to pick one or the other
that's why they're both wing slot exclusive

[drowsy plank]

do not bring wing slot into this

[north oracle]

the issue is the benefit from angel treads isn't very helpful when you can tap spacebar and move faster

[drowsy plank]

i like the movement speed treads give tbh even when you can just use wings solo

but again i am just weird appearntly

[north oracle]

so you aren't really saving a slot by using tracers, because using treads post ML isn't very helpful compared to other movement accs anyway

[drowsy plank]

[north oracle]

yeah

[gentle hound]

sorry that's why they're both classified as wings
was not talking about wing slot mods

[drowsy plank]

yeah idk the whole boots situation is another issue we'll hopefully address Eventually™️

[gentle hound]

anyway going back to this though
you're saying 'boots are better' now when clearly that's a very contested opinion

[sand marlin]

Yeah this is the actual usage which is a different issue altogether that's caused by both lacking stats and the fact that the boss fights play much better midair in general post ml

[drowsy plank]

seraph tracers being better is not

[sand marlin]

And seraph's doesn't have garbage flight stats it's still actually pretty good

[drowsy plank]

literally right here

[sand marlin]

Other than the fact that its IFrames are broken

[drowsy plank]

ifames :plumg:

[north oracle]

seraph's are good because they have utility on the bosses and iframes which is dumb

[gentle hound]

if boots were objectively better, then it would make sense for the boots to be a direct upgrade
but there's a very large portion of people who would say wings are better
that's why they're meant to be equally viable, no?

the whole point I'm making is that the boots are not intended to be objectively the better option, but their recipe implies they are

[drowsy plank]

well they are rn but once the iframes are gone they shouldnt be

but also like i said this is just like starmageddon and starmada

[sand marlin]

Also if it was actually an upgrade it'd be an instagrade

[drowsy plank]

yeah

[sand marlin]

Which shouldn't be assumed because that'd be bad

[drowsy plank]

unless yharon also dropped tracers, which would be kinda goofy, that's just how these things work atm

[wide river]

Make Yharon drop dragon feathers which are used to make both Seraph Tracers and Drew's Wings separately

[drowsy plank]

💀

more materials

[sand marlin]

Another boss mat

Again it's like you're changing the wings by tucking it on there and the bars are for upgrading the boots

It's kind of a nice line tbh

[spark ravine]

don't remove the HM/Perf weapon crafts!

Add them to all other bosses!

[gentle hound]

why not just use silva wings?
they're already made with dragonfolly feathers and auric bars are still required

[drowsy plank]

because silva wings aren't thematically linked to seraph tracers at all and silva has a lot of baggage already unrelated to any of this

and also do not look like tracer's wings at all

[sand marlin]

Consider this

Boots are the start of the line, not wings

You start from hermes until tracers

[gentle hound]

yes I get that

[sand marlin]

So the upgrade line is meant to be boots focused

You are upgrading the boots by using something of equal power to the tier you're upgrading it to

[wide river]

So we should remove the wings from the upgrades, yes?

[drowsy plank]

TRUE

[sand marlin]

[gentle hound]

true lmao

[gentle hound]

this is exactly the point
the celestial tracers use tier 1 item plus tier 1 item (plus boss material) to make tier 2 boots
the elysian tracers use tier 2 item plus tier 2 item (plus boss material) to make tier 3 boots
the seraph tracers use tier 3 item plus tier 4 item (plus boss material) to make tier 4 boots

[sand marlin]

Ok so where do the wings come from?

[gentle hound]

mechanically it would make the most sense to use the previous tier's wings and boots to upgrade, and the wings drop from the boss
it's how the other two work

[sand marlin]

Well Elysian Tracers does not use Elysian Wings, not thematically

So where do the wings come from?

It doesn't have an origin

How does it come about?

[gentle hound]

well again, the logical answer would be silva wings, though having a feather drop to be crafted into wings or boots would also make sense

[sand marlin]

So you would use silva wings for the post DoG tracers yes?

[gentle hound]

no

post yharon

silva is post-dog

[sand marlin]

Which is why it should match the thematics of the tracers of the same tier

Silva's thematics fit nowhere in drew's or seraph's and drew's fits on seraph's

[gentle hound]

then what's the point of having the providence wings in the elysian tracer recipe?
the wings look nothing like the tracers

[sand marlin]

Because it is not finished, it is currently flawed and doesn't have a logical recipe

Which is what I've been saying

Retierings will be done with more additions

It's important to consider that fact

[drowsy plank]

elysians are def getting retiered at some point

[wide river]

Correct

I believe this was confirmed as such (don't remember where)

[gentle hound]

so essentially you're saying that rather than the celestial>elysian tracers, there should be an additional tier in between that both uses and reflects the providence wings?

[sand marlin]

Almost, I'm saying that tier in between will have a new sprite fitting of prov wings and the current elysian tracers will use the god slayer hoverboard that's gonna be added later

[drowsy plank]

nah just move it so they're not on post provi tier

[gentle hound]

and the elysian tracers will.... what, use silva wings in its recipe?

or no wings at all?

[sand marlin]

Again, god slayer hoverboard

But uh

Hm it is kind of weird to combine a hoverboard with tracers and get a tracers with wings not a hoverboard

[gentle hound]

you mentioned it could use the elysian tracer sprite as the hoverboard sprite earlier

[drowsy plank]

frankly you could just not use wings on that tier or smthn idfk

[sand marlin]

Okay the phrases here are being mistook since I haven't been paying as much attention

[gentle hound]

wouldn't it make more sense for a god slayer hoverboard to be the wing option for dog tier, rather than a part of the tracer line?

especially with sprites now needing to be changed?

[spark ravine]

it is the wing option for post-DoG

[gentle hound]

then where are silva wings now?

[sand marlin]

Celestial Tracers, should have Lunar wings, fits its tier with its thematics otherwise
Elysian Tracers, the name should be moved to post prov and keep using prov wings and prob the boss mat, get a new sprite
Post DoG tracers(obviously would be new), would use the elysian tracers sprite that fits the thematics, use god slayer hoverboard as the wing option that'll be added later because it's... kind of the only option as far as I can see
Seraph's, fits theming and naming and sprite with Drew's, pretty much perfect

[gentle hound]

and again, silva wings are redundant

[spark ravine]

What will happen to Silva wings, actually? Removed or?

[sand marlin]

Well yeah

Silva doesn't fit with any of the bosses

[spark ravine]

True

[sand marlin]

I don't know silva lore so I can't really assume anything at all

[gentle hound]

I mean I guess you could just have both the hoverboard and the silva wings
there is both a god slayer and silva set after all

they share the same tier

[sand marlin]

It could be an alternative for the hoverboard for the sake of alternation that's not a bad idea even if it's kind of unfitting

[wide river]

I don't see why there'd need to be exactly one option at DoG tier
Silva can definitely coexist with the theoretical God Slayer Hoverboard

[gentle hound]

it's perfectly fitting for mage and summoner, who use silva gear instead of dog armor

[sand marlin]

The issue is that post dog tracers' wing sprite would be nonexistent if hoverboard is used but that's kind of the only option

[wide river]

If it acts similarly to the current Hoverboard, then it would provide better horizontal movement compared to Silva, which would have better vertical movement
Alternatives are fine

[gentle hound]

so there would be three options now?
the tracers, the hoverboard, and the silva wings?

[wide river]

Elysian Tracers are getting retiered so they won't stay in the same place forever

[sand marlin]

Hoverboard is a good refreshment to post ML that has no hovers outside of lunar wings and starboard

It's kind of funny considering starboard was scal viable easily with pre nerf soaring insignia

[gentle hound]

yes but there would still be a tracer option because some people prefer tracers over wings
they both count as your 'wing item' and are intended to be equally viable

unless you skip an entire tier for the tracer line I guess

[wide river]

I don't think Tracers need to be present on every tier available
Since Elysian Tracers are getting retiered (presumably earlier since later is just not an option), you'd then have your Tracers getting upgraded like every boss

You'd have Celestial (immediately post-Moon Lord), Elysian (post-Provi/Sentinels?), then Seraph (post-Yharon)

[sand marlin]

I mean they're not gonna waste current elysian tracers sprite so

It wouldn't be hard to have a dog tracers in there

Whereas elysian tracers would be new

[wide river]

Then what would be the point in retiering Elysian if they're just going to add a new one to fill the same space

[sand marlin]

Because elysian is not the right theming

[small timber]

Oh god how did this topic turn the channel into a warzone

[wide river]

I really don't know and I don't know why it matters so much

[sand marlin]

And also it's got really bad stats too

[spark ravine]

Ain't too bad right now tbh

[gentle hound]

warzone? this isn't a heated discussion lol
no fighting here just figuring stuff out

[sand marlin]

Yeah it was a bit bad earlier but it's fine right now

[small timber]

But yeah if you want the most direct answer, it can be as simple as this:

Current seraph tracer looks like drew's wing

Therefore it use drew's wing

If they use silva wing, they need to resprite seraph tracer

There are no plan to resprite seraph tracer right now

[sand marlin]

Yeah pretty much what cog said

[small timber]

Tldr of the tldr: if someone come out with silva wing seraph tracer sprite, it is much more reasonable for the change; with no resprite currently this will just make it so there is a sprite and material disconnection

[wide river]

I agree with this

[gentle hound]

so even though silva would make more sense from a progression standpoint (previous tier+previous tier), the spritework is the deciding factor
it makes sense from that perspective, but from the perspective of someone seeing 'oh I can turn my new wings into something better' it still comes off to many as "I'm using my good wings and a bunch of other materials to make something that is a sidegrade", or "I'm turning my good wings into worse boots" at worst.

[small timber]

Yes it is that simple

[sand marlin]

We have all three of "upgrade", "sidegrade" and "downgrade" as actual on tier viabilities so

[small timber]

More people will find it more troublesome if a material and sprite dont match (exclude those goofy donor weapons)

If you combine bee's knees with like plague plating, you expect it to be a plague bow, not a bow that shoot magical rainbow lasers

[sand marlin]

Being Seraph's, Celestial and Elysian

[small timber]

Sprite is much easier to spot in terms of consistency than crafting materials consistency

[sand marlin]

Outside of that, the idea it has is just "sidegrade" and it will try to be just that

[olive saddle]

Changing material consistency is also a bandaid fix on a much bigger issue

[gentle hound]

if that's the case, that sounds like a balance issue if the intent is for it to be a sidegrade
though a lot of people would argue that calling boots an upgrade is wrong

[wide river]

Yea

[gentle hound]

and yes the boots are an upgrade to the -boots- ingredient
they are not objectively an upgrade to the -wings- ingredient

[sand marlin]

Yes there is definitely also a balance issue on the side.
And then we have the mismatching thematics with elysian tracers being post dog.

[tardy geyser]

It depends on if you think 30 more iframes when you take over 200 damage is enough to make up for the lost flight time

[small timber]

Just change the name of elysian tracer to like cosmolite tracer

And then change it back to elysian tracer after the soonTM easier

[sand marlin]

You can theoretically use that for refreshing flight time pretty much achieving even better results but it is more or less obvious that tracers are pretty broken rn

[small timber]

Will confuse about 0 people

[sand marlin]

People will always be confused

We have matching theming for celestial and seraph's but their tiers are still confused by people

[wide river]

Nah we should call the Elysian Tracers Celestial Tracers, then call Celestial Tracers Elysian Tracers
Fixed

[small timber]

Seraph tracer is definitely an upgrade yes, you trading way more for lossing way less

The other 2 tracers not so much

[tardy geyser]

That kinda dodges the issue of elysian tracers only being used for one boss

they need a tier shift

[sand marlin]

What dodges?

[small timber]

But yeab elysian is retiering anyway

[wide river]

They will be receiving this (along with a rename iirc)

[tardy geyser]

Very good 👍

[sand marlin]

Yeah they will be retiered anyway but what dodges the issue?

[small timber]

Celestial is more because of the case of there are just not that much bosses at that tier where running is useful

[gentle hound]

if the whole idea is "we're putting sprite consistency and logic over 'crafting things will always make progression items better than the materials used' as the priority" then sure that makes sense

[sand marlin]

Rungodding signus isn't that hard really though it's more the boss being very easy

[small timber]

Tldr yes, so it make sense

And this is a very minor crafting recipe inconsistency so it doesnt warrant a resprite to fix it too

Because seraph for the most part is a massive upgrade to drew

Its only weakness is basically for scal you might be too fast so it is harder to control (but if you can control then it is not a downside)

The main weakness is literalky that it is too good at its job

[sand marlin]

Including the fact that you are upgrading boots themselves

[gentle hound]

and you are downgrading the wings, some would say

[sand marlin]

The wings are in essence a sidegrade so it doesn't really matter

They were never the main focus

[small timber]

You are upgrading the accessory

From drew's wing or elysian tracer, by comining it into a single item, you get seraph tracer that is an upgrade in a single accessory compare to its component

[gentle hound]

if seraph boots are intended to be an -upgrade- it makes perfect sense to have the wings in its recipe
but everything I've heard about the tracer line is that it's supposed to be a sidegrade, on equal footing with the wings in its same tier as a viable alternative for people who prefer boots

[small timber]

If they simply combine every asepct of material property, it will lead to massive power creep

It can works too, but for the most part it just means either player power have to be tuned down (elsewhere), or game need to be massively rebalanced

[gentle hound]

and many people would absolutely argue the wings are better than the boots

[small timber]

Seraph is basically an upgrade yes because you just dont need that much flight time at that point when running is so good for exo

The other 2 tracers not so much but they will be rebalanced anyway

[sand marlin]

Tracers are an upgrade to boots and sidegrade to wings. That's it.

Their current viability is a balance issue, it doesn't change this fact

[tardy geyser]

Would you say that tracers need an arena with a lot of platforms to be good?

[sand marlin]

That is entirely down to your preference and how you play out the fight

[tardy geyser]

As in better than wings

[sand marlin]

Just like how you choose your movement option between wings and tracers

Some can make do better with less platforms using the same option, some can make do better with more platforms

[small timber]

Celestial and elysian just need to be able to be used with like angel treads

[tardy geyser]

Yeah that makes sense

[small timber]

Their flight time is too low for even soaring insignia to be a significant boost because of % boost

Or rather, a static amount of flight time boost like aerostone, but not preHM

[tardy geyser]

Ooh maybe if you could disable their wings by toggling their visibility?

[small timber]

If they redesign tracers sure

[gentle hound]

tracers (or wings) are supposed to -replace- angel treads

the whole point of tracers is supposed to be that they're an equally viable alternative to post-ml wings

[small timber]

There is a planned pure boots line soonTM anyway

Tracer are the boot+wing line

Just that there is no static flight time item (like angel treads) that can be used with tracers

[sand marlin]

I agree with tracers replacing treads, it doesn't make much sense to be using treads as well when you already have boots

[sand marlin]

There is a planned pure boots line soonTM anyway
Huh?

[small timber]

SoonTM capitalized

It is planned and will be happening at any point before year 2050

[sand marlin]

I have never heard of anything like that regardless

It sounds less believable than Yharim

[gentle hound]

wouldn't the addition of a boots line just make tracers redundant?

it would always be a better option to take wings+boots over tracers+boots

[small timber]

The new boots line will be upgraded angel treads

The tracer will be boots+wing

If you want the tldr

If you are using tracer chances are you are not using boots + tracers, just tracer alone and use the slot for something else

It is a balance matter at that point

Just wait for the implementation of the boots line

Again, soonTM

[small timber]

I thought it was mentioned a super long time ago when someone suggested a separate boots line

[sand marlin]

This sounds as believable as having a yoyo for every cal mat possible

[small timber]

Then it is super convincing

[sand marlin]

[gentle hound]

promises, promises

[wide river]

I think there was a footnote in the old suggestions doc about that somewhere

[gentle hound]

when the update comes out you and I will do a yoyo only playthrough

[sand marlin]

That's still less confirming than Yharim

[wide river]

Here we are

Not confirmed nor denied

[sand marlin]

The elysian retiering is much more concrete and hoverboard sprite was literally accepted if I recall

Oh ok looking at it now I'm more convinced alright

[gentle hound]

but yeah in any case
in regards to my suggestion - it sounds like there is massive post-ML wing/tracer restructuring planned, and the seraph tracers are intentionally disregarding material progression sensibilities in favor of sprite consistency
ie: yes it doesn't make perfect sense, but that's the decision made given the priorities

[small timber]

Personally I think imo iirc to be honest in my opinion

For things like this (and god skayer hoverboard)

They should just implement it earlier even without say a proper sprite as a placeholder as long as they have a semi decent one

Mainly because it will allow them to rebalance it earlier and introduce more build options

But cal at the moment is too big to take the "temporary" or "placeholder" approach, everything are expected to stay that way as soon as they are implemented

[small timber]

For the most part: probably true?

[north oracle]

(the massive outcry over sponge being dead for a few weeks)

[small timber]

I mean sponge is just weird since they can just revert the entire sponge accessory

[sand marlin]

Can't really agree with saying seraph's ignoring progression when it perfectly follows it

As I've said earlier

[small timber]

But if you introduce a new item and say "this will be resprited in the future and maybe enhanced functionality" not so much

[sand marlin]

You are upgrading boots, you get better boots you want a sidegrade to wings? Craft into tracers and get sidegrade

[gentle hound]

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this point, because to me it makes sense for downgrades to be upgraded, and not for sidegrades to require additional material to be crafted into equally viable sidegrades
and regardless of whether seraph tracers is an upgrade or not, tracers are stated to be intended to be sidegrades

BUT

[sand marlin]

Boots are downgrades, you upgrade boots you get better boots in tracers, I don't really see the issue

[gentle hound]

that said, the sprite consistency point is a perfectly valid point

[small timber]

The suggestion do make sense

What is the downside of seraph tracer using auric bar + silva wing over drew's wing, it just mean people can try both out without having to use shimmer

It is just a sprite issue really that is preventing the change from being implemented

Other than you have to craft silva wing I guess?

[gentle hound]

I don't want to go over this again lol
you're ignoring the wings and saying 'only the boots are being upgraded'
correct, and the wings are -also an ingredient- and so the finished product should be -more than or equal to the sum of its parts- in terms of usefulness

[sand marlin]

Sure if you really wanna hyper focus on tracers being instagrades for wings for some reason and ignore the main upgraded part of the accessory

[small timber]

Or another idea

Just use fledgling wing + auric bar instead of silva wing (I forgot if fledgling is craftable)

Or angel wings (fit thematically too)

Not even have to change sprite

[gentle hound]

the sprite issue is the main and strongest argument against the suggestion, yes

[gentle hound]

and yes, you'd be using pre-dog tier wings to make on-tier tracers, that was my idea
or rather, using pre-yharon tier wings to make post-yharon tier tracers

[sand marlin]

Seriously all this time I've just been trying to help you understand and can't comprehend how that hasn't been made possible over the course of this intensely detailed discussion which left no holes uncovered, I have no problems with this as I know most people did agree on my point I really just wanted to help you understand it

[gentle hound]

all parts of the recipe are equally important lol
you don't combine a strong weapon with difficult-to-aquire materials to make an equally strong weapon, you craft something -better- than the parts used to make it

the point you keep making is 'focus on the boots part of the recipe, it's the important part'

[sand marlin]

What's an Auric Bar to a Seraph's Tracers besides purely as a material and general coloring scheme?

Are you upgrading the bar?

[gentle hound]

the auric bar is the progression gate

[sand marlin]

So there are core parts for the recipe

[gentle hound]

ie you need to have obtained this material to aquire it

[sand marlin]

And that the main core is the boots, not the wings, yes?

[gentle hound]

no, you're not getting it lol

[sand marlin]

You have said it yourself

[gentle hound]

all the parts of the recipe are important

[sand marlin]

The items in the recipe serve a purpose

They are important

In their own ways

[gentle hound]

the boots are the base, yes

the auric bars are used to correctly set the item in progression, so you aquire it at the right time

the wings are there because tracers have wings and can fly

[glass arch]

The other types of tracer recipes use the previous tier's wings
no they just use whatever

only one of the tracers uses explicitly wings from the tier below

celestials use any wing from any progression point

[sand marlin]

Well the wings matching to tracers' sprite works better in cases such as seraph's

[gentle hound]

elysian tracers use the last available wings, providence
celestial tracers are literally turning your currently used wings into the first tier of tracer

[sand marlin]

So it'd be desirable to have a matching wings and tracers

[glass arch]

and. seraphs arent doing the same as celestial?

[gentle hound]

elysian tracers turn your old wings into new tracers
celestial tracers turn your old wings into new tracers
seraph tracers turn your brand-new wings into new tracers, and now you need to aquire new wings if you want the option again

so no, not really

[glass arch]

they arent an upgrade, they're a sidegrade

this is always what tracers are

[gentle hound]

and they use their sidegrade and two additional items as a material - giving the indirect message that you are making an upgrade out of your wings

you're not crafting your old wings into new gear, you're using the gear you -just got- to make something that isn't an actual upgrade

[glass arch]

not explicitly an upgrade

but seraphs are generally better than drews

[gentle hound]

I'm noticing that seems to be a common opinion at this point, which is a bit of a contrast to the many times I've heard people say wings are outright better than tracers

if it WAS meant to be an upgrade, using the wings as a material would make perfect sense

but it's meant to be a sidegrade

as you said

[glass arch]

no like the iframes alone make it better in most scenarios

[glass arch]

its a sidegrade. to drews. meaning it uses drews because drews arent crafted

[gentle hound]

I can't think of any other recipes that use a sidegrade to make another sidegrade

aside from 1:1 crimson/corruption recipes and the like

but the tracers/wings aren't 1:1 in terms of recipe cost

[glass arch]

because drews dont have a recipe

[gentle hound]

but they are part of one
and the recipe basically reads as
"I give you my dollar and these two quarters, and you give me a slightly different dollar in return"

the 'sidegrades' obviously being the dollar here

[drowsy plank]

would you rather they be crafted at ecto mist or something

[gentle hound]

that doesn't really do anything about the recipe cost difference, so I don't see how it helps

you'd still be trading a buck fifty for a dollar

[drowsy plank]

i really dont get what the big deal is about this, they're just like any other tracers, why aren't we complaining about elysian wings being used in elysian tracers despite the wings having better stats; like this is just the tradeoff for tracers since the first member of the line

[gentle hound]

because elysian tracers are made with providence wings, and not the same-tier silva wings?

[glass arch]

and elysian tracers are still a downgrade to those lower tier wings

they are comedically bad

[drowsy plank]

lunar wings and starboard have better stats than celestial but you can still use em in the craft

[gentle hound]

that's a balance issue in that case, because they require dog materials and are post-dog tracers
so they're intended to be on par with the post-dog silva wings

[glass arch]

and the same goes for seraph tracers
they require post yharon materials and are post yharon

[gentle hound]

if you required silva wings to make elysian tracers it would be an even more egregious example of the value disparity of the materials

[glass arch]

the difference is that silva wings have a recipe

drews wings dont

[gentle hound]

? no the difference is that silva wings are -not part of the elysian tracers recipe-

[glass arch]

i dont even know what you're trying to argue here anymore

[gentle hound]

you use old tracers and old wings and dog materials to make your new dog tracers

[drowsy plank]

ur still only gonna be using drews or tracers so i dont know why it matters

you cant use both

i mean unless you refight yharon but like on average

[glass arch]

its gonna be a lot easier to refight yharon when you're post yharon :p

[drowsy plank]

i mean yeah but most people dont

[gentle hound]

sigh at this point I'm not even trying to explain my suggestion
I'm literally trying to explain why 1 sidegrade + 2 additional materials is not equal to the 1 sidegrade you recieve

if moon lord had tracers that required post-ML wings, providence had tracers that required post-prov wings, and dog had tracers that required post-dog wings, then it would make sense for yharon to have tracers that required post-yharon wings

but the other two examples of tracers require accessories below their tier, and combine them into something on-tier

[drowsy plank]

normality relocator is a sidegrade to rod of discord but it still needs additional materials

[gentle hound]

normality relocator is an upgrade

[glass arch]

no

[drowsy plank]

it's not

[glass arch]

no it is not

[gentle hound]

hotkey instead of hotbar

[drowsy plank]

it has a longer cooldown

[glass arch]

it is rod with a hotkey and longer cooldown

[drowsy plank]

45 seconds vs 30 seconds

[sand marlin]

RoD and NR users are like day and night

15 vs 20 you mean

[drowsy plank]

oh right

i forgor

[gentle hound]

honestly I didn't even notice there was a timer difference tbh

[drowsy plank]

the chaos state durations are always changing

well it exists and that makes them sidegrades

just like drews and celestial

[gentle hound]

okay, so with that logic it turns out there is in fact one other example of a sidegrade requiring additional materials to make

I personally would still argue the hotkey function makes it a straight upgrade, but even if we do consider it a sidegrade that just shows there are two examples that don't make sense in terms of recipe requirements, instead of one

[drowsy plank]

nah

it's consistent

there are multiple instances of this so it makes sense

[gentle hound]

it's not consistent within its own upgrade tree, and two examples of something doesn't make it consistent across the board

weird coincidence that it happened twice though

[drowsy plank]

well there aren't really any other sidegrades, so going off of those two

[gentle hound]

the other wings/tracers are intended to be sidegrades as well, so you have to include them

and none of those examples require the sidegrade as a material to make another sidegrade

they instead use older materials in the recipe

[glass arch]

because all of their sidegrades have recipes

drews are pretty distinct in that they dont

[gentle hound]

celestial starboard would be the celestial tracers sidegrade, and there's no recipe for it

meaning the odd one out is actually the elysian tracers... which use older materials to make

because of course silva wings are its sidegrade and they're crafted outright

[buoyant idol]

@proven panther Please read suggestion guidelines before posting.

[ripe owl]

This doesn't even sound like a Terraria suggestion

[glass arch]

its a reference

to jjk i think? idk its what someone said when i asked in another server

[ripe owl]

Still doesn't sound like a Terraria suggestion

[buoyant idol]

This has no chance of redemption.

SIS
Boss Suggestion
Reference Suggestion
No formatting
Large Scale
No reasoning

[wide river]

This is eerily similar to that other suggestion we got a bit ago

[north oracle]

Could this just be deleted

[ripe owl]

True that

@drowsy plank

[buoyant idol]

Yeah, I see no point in trying to fix it.

[proven panther]

my bad didnt read the guidelines

[flint notch]

Ten Shadows in terraria goes crazy

[umbral gazelle]

iirc mahoraga is jjk character

[flint notch]

Ten Shadows Technique is the staple ability of one of the main characters of JJK, Megumi

so yeah

[proven panther]

would be a cool summon

ngl

[umbral gazelle]

sorry to break you but you need an actual reasoning instead of "it will be cool"

[sand marlin]

References aren't allowed and neither are specific item suggestions

[drowsy plank]

how is this the second time someone has made a mahagora suggestion

[proven panther]

im sorry

[flint notch]

Brainrot consumes us all.,.,.,.,.

[novel belfry]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-gif-20155462

[misty sigil]

Mahoraga would be a badass summon

He'd be ludicrously overpowered though

[novel belfry]

whats mahoraga?

[misty sigil]

Strongest Shikigami in JJK

this mf

[drowsy plank]

okay lets stop talking about mahoraga

[dim snow]

amazing suggestion please add this immediately.

peak i fear

[drowsy plank]

okay im just deleting it

[oblique otter]

I think this is a future content?

the sparing cutscene (hopefully)

I heard dialogues and arena is going to be changed in the future

So might as well the npc transition

[north oracle]

@alpine dawn she is getting a dialogue rewrite which should solve that issue

[alpine dawn]

I still think a small spare cutscene would be nice, but it wouldn't really have a reason to exist ig.

[north oracle]

We know next to nothing about what's happening, but if it doesn't include that it almost certainly conflicts with it

[umbral gazelle]

just zooming toward her would be enough

[frozen hornet]

I can't believe I've found these tiny ass imperfections in scal's box so many times

twice for infernum like 3 times for base cal

[fervent orbit]

i would probably use attachements over embeds because uhhhh

[frozen hornet]

attachments would be the same no?

[fervent orbit]

no

[sand marlin]

Attachments would be clumped up which I don't like but it's more compact Ig

[fervent orbit]

heres how it looks with using attachments

[frozen hornet]

fair

[fervent orbit]

also with attachments u get the arrow to cycle thru the images

[sand marlin]

Thank god I don't need to see the clumped up version on my side it's pretty ugly Imo

[frozen hornet]

huh seems like I can't add attachments to an existing message

[fervent orbit]

no u cannot

[royal tapir]

Good on him for using embeds

[sand marlin]

Try saving the post in a private server then repost with attachments

[royal tapir]

I can actually see the images

[sand marlin]

TRUE

[fervent orbit]

just click on the image

[frozen hornet]

ye I was going to do that

I had one character left to spare because I used embeds

[royal tapir]

I'd rather the image not be cut off

[sand marlin]

^

It should just be a toggle in settings to view clump versus list Imo

[fervent orbit]

yea but this is 5 images

u literally cant see the sugg

[frozen hornet]

I used embeds because I wanted to make it clear what was wrong in each image

ig I can also merge them manually or something but that's too much effort for something this silly

also I'm getting conflicting feedback here should I keep the embeds or no

[sand marlin]

For the sake of the actual suggestion, using attachments would be the right play

[frozen hornet]

alright

[fervent orbit]

this can also work yea

[ashen warren]

oh don't worry it probably won't work if the bot carries it over to dev

[drowsy plank]

wouldnt something like this feel more appropriate for bug-reports considering it seems like an oversight? this is the same scenario as the summoner tooltip inconsistency i forgot to flag

[kindred creek]

but it isn't a bug, just an inconsistency

[sand marlin]

It's an oversight which go to bug reports

Either way

We've already had a similar conversation here in sugg discussion about nucleogenesis line, combination accessories are not meant to have all the effects of their ingredients for obvious balance reasons

[kindred creek]

oh, ok, I'll put it there

[glass arch]

cog said that an hour before you posted this sugg

[sand marlin]

Wh
He thought Cog said that to him?

Don't tell me you're actually gonna put your sugg in bug reports

[kindred creek]

i mean, that's what cog said to do

[sand marlin]

No

[glass arch]

no

[sand marlin]

For one Cog didn't say that to you

[glass arch]

as i said before

[sand marlin]

For two

[kindred creek]

are yall gonna flag it if I leave it as a suggestion?

[sand marlin]

You made the post an hour after Cog said that in the first place

[glass arch]

yeah

[kindred creek]

i dodnt know he said it

[sand marlin]

So that can't be told to you

[fervent orbit]

wdym cog is a time traveller

[sand marlin]

Anyway

The minor inconsistency in stats are intentional

They are meant to be slightly toned down as to not become broken after already being combined to something stronger

[drowsy plank]

i mean i was thinking of 🔒 ing this; #suggestions-voting message

and having it moved to bug reports since it should not be in voting

im unsure about the scal arena one tho

[sand marlin]

It's a deleted sugg cog

[glass arch]

if you made it have 3 then it would be on par with plaguebringer armor. on its own. a single accessory should not be on the same level as an armor set thats at the same tier

[sand marlin]

They were gonna put it at bug reports

So we're explaining not to

[drowsy plank]

oh okay so this is something else

[sand marlin]

They somehow took your message for themselves when it's from an entirely different time frame

[drowsy plank]

lmao

[wide river]

^

[peak mulch]

Guys, how does concept of alternative endgame ammo sounds to you?

[fervent orbit]

but why

[drowsy plank]

what exactly do you mean by this?

[fervent orbit]

more ammo types most likely

[drowsy plank]

...yeah i got that part noob lmfao

[peak mulch]

Like god slayer slug has infinite piercing but theres not a lot of enemies / bosses at that stage with multiple segments

By stage i mean post Dog

[drowsy plank]

idk i think it's fine

i mean sure more ammo variation is always appreciated but id rather it not be done just for the sake of having more

[peak mulch]

Same but its just my though

[drowsy plank]

also piercing is still useful considering late game bosses like exo and yharon have big hitboxes so the bullets can still hit multiple times

[peak mulch]

Yea that too but sometimes i have an impression that bullets hit so fast that not all of them accually deal damage

[drowsy plank]

this isn't a place for suggestion of ideas, this is a place to find problems with the game and suggest solutions; you could argue that lack of ammo diversity could be a problem, but at the same time, most ranger weapons are using converts, are so far disjointed from the types of weapons that care about ammo types that i wonder if it would really be worth it at all

if you want to argue otherwise though, i think it would be a fine suggestion

[spark ravine]

I mean, god slayer slugs use -1 local iframes, so they can't strike the same enemy twice.

[drowsy plank]

oh lmao

[peak mulch]

Like honestly after

Dragon breath was " reworked"

I personally would say " nerfed"

Ranger doenst feel really strong post yharon

[north oracle]

nah, i'd call it a rework ngl

[peak mulch]

Also Scal drops like one ranger weapon

[fervent orbit]

its

the same strength

[north oracle]

it's marginally weaker on exos and marginally stronger on SCal

[fervent orbit]

still mid b before and after the rework

[peak mulch]

It was really good on artemis and apollo tho

Like chicken cannon is on ares

But ig that would be in balance discussions

[north oracle]

yeah, now you have chimken for ares/thana and t end for SCal/twins

ranger isn't underpowered post yharon, it's just relatively balanced

[drowsy plank]

dragon's breath performed better on both of its bosses post rework

[flint notch]

P-p-p-pe-

[peak mulch]

Kinda hard to hit infernum master scal

[drowsy plank]

5:11 for both vs. 5:17 Exos and 5:57 Scal respectively

this isn't the infernum server

we don't balance around it

infernum has its own balancing

[fervent orbit]

damn infernum what a good arguement

[north oracle]

that's not pre and post rework cog

[fervent orbit]

unfortunately we dont care about infernum

[north oracle]

that's post rework and post balance

[drowsy plank]

oh is it not lmao

💥

whatever points still stands it is good

[peak mulch]

Dont take this to seriously

[north oracle]

4:48 to 5:11 SCal, 5:17 exos to 5:11 exos

[peak mulch]

Just sayib

[drowsy plank]

6 seconds improve on exos

[peak mulch]

Ig it will slowly die after not having updates no more

[peak mulch]

I mean with new stuff/ reworks

[spark ravine]

I believe there is one last content update for infernum

[north oracle]

it's mostly a bugfix update
toasty just made a couple of weapons too

[spark ravine]

ah ok. I've only seen the post-providence DoG cutscene

[north oracle]

true, that as well

[crude geode]

@alpine dawn bosses is such a major no

the reasoning on this suggestion is also extremely flimsy

[alpine dawn]

bosses was meant to be more of a retier/move bosses to them

i still think hardmode evil biomes are just

zzz

you got shit to farm for, which isnt interesting

mimics, which drop okay stuff

and uhhh

[crude geode]

Most hardmode biomes become that

[alpine dawn]

i feel like my issue is more of just the biomes not being interesting at all? maybe i should redo the suggestion to be a "improve evil in general"

the boss fights related to them are pretty weak, and the content they bring is kinda boring

[crude geode]

Most of it is in fact vanilla content aside from the two bosses

so it’s likely that in comparison to something like the brimstone crags or even the sunken sea it seems boring/weak

I do think the boss fights comment is interesting and has potential?

What about the fights do you think is weak?

(Specifically Hive Mind/Perfs)

[alpine dawn]

They're just kind of, not memorable. I get it's hard to make early game bosses fair and memorable, but I feel like much more could be done, that just isn't. They both kinda feel like boring melds of the previous evil bosses?

[drowsy plank]

so true

literally nothing we can do about that tho

[alpine dawn]

I mean, I don't think so. Making them do more and lean into their gimmicks could be cool

Having The Hive Mind do a lot more summon-y type attacks, and Perf do more ichor type attacks could be cool

[drowsy plank]

they're probably not going to get huge changes to their AI and frankly idk how much more you could "lean into their gimmicks"; 90% of perf's fight is already the worms, and hive mind feels fine as is

perf already only has like one non-ichor attack other than its dash already lmao

[alpine dawn]

Maybe Hive could summon worms to burst through the ground 'n shit, while the Perf could create a wave of Ichor

[alpine dawn]

To be fair he doesn't do much himself, his worms do everything

[drowsy plank]

those sound like decent death mode attacks ig

[alpine dawn]

They just don't feel like the pinnacle of the corruption/crimson, which is what I feel like they should be

[drowsy plank]

yeah, i mean it is called perfs, not hive after all, so it makes sense that the perferator hive takes a back seat

side effect of being stuck is preHM right next to evil 1

but that's never changing so oh well

[alpine dawn]

Even then, the worms are just kinda generic worm bosses. If I wanted to fight a worm boss, I'd stick to the 7 others kek

[drowsy plank]

again, just another bullshit thing we're stuck with

god i fucking hate worm bosses

[alpine dawn]

I don't think it's impossible for it to change. Yeah, it wouldn't be quick or a guarantee but just ignoring the possibility for change won't get anyone anywhere

[drowsy plank]

you would need to change the fight so fundamentally at that point it might as well just be a new boss entirely

not that i mind them being replaced, mind you, but that feels like too much work for something that gives very little return on the cal team's end

[alpine dawn]

I wouldn't be opposed to a different fight.

[drowsy plank]

yes, i dont disagree like i said but there are bigger fish to deal with than the absolute definition of Mid that Evil2 is

Signus, Yharim, any of the other, more iconic worm bosses; and that's just other boss content, not even mentioning the biome reworks

[spark ravine]

On a related note, anything wrong with this?

Make the large perforator worm more aggressive

Out of the three worms the perforators can summon, the large perforator is by far the least of a threat. While its size and dive-charge might seem threatening, it spends so much goddamn time being passively underground that there's little point in killing it. Unless you have a short-ranged weapon, there is absolutely no point in killing the large worm. You may as well ignore it and just stand still under the hive and occasionally move to the side. Making the large perforator more aggressive would make it more of an active threat akin to the other two worms.

but ye, hive mind aight, perforators mid

[drowsy plank]

yeah nothing wrong with that

[spark ravine]

k thanks

[alpine dawn]

i dont think anyone would be sad if the evil2 bosses were just deleted honestly

[drowsy plank]

i dont even mind perf's fight, i find it enjoyable, even, it's just... generic

[alpine dawn]

theres a lot of boss bloat

[bright crag]

The content evil-2 unlocks:

[spark ravine]

the concept of releasing worms it neat, I just feel like its... missing something, and I quite explain what.

[alpine dawn]

i'd be fine without it

[drowsy plank]

yeah

[alpine dawn]

also statement was a half joke

while they are important, they dont really feel important

[bright crag]

Evil-2 drops are not good, true, but I wouldn't want Aerialite and Arsenal T1 gone

[drowsy plank]

you act like, besides the lore reasons, they couldnt just be moved to evil1 gameplay wise

[spark ravine]

reworked shadethrower is neat at least

[drowsy plank]

they could, but it would be fucky with how aerialite works in the story

[alpine dawn]

aerialite matters to the story?

[bright crag]

Can't really move the bosses, or delete them outright
Our best options are:

1. Develop and improve evil-2 to its, frankly, very limited potential
2. Replace evil-2 entirely with a brand new boss which unlocks Aerialite and Arsenal T1

[alpine dawn]

thought it just kinda existed

[bright crag]

It will matter

It will be getting a rework in the future

[spark ravine]

official aerialite lore isn't public, right?

[bright crag]

Yeah

Not yet

[alpine dawn]

i know about that

arsenal and the rework

[drowsy plank]

frankly id be so down for evil2 to get replaced with some sky boss, but got forbid calamity get MORE boss content

[alpine dawn]

its like, ranger and mage or melee, right?

[spark ravine]

mage and ranger

[alpine dawn]

cut the evil, replace with sky boss? 2 for 1 deal

[drowsy plank]

ture...,.,.,.,.

[bright crag]

Aerialite armor will be Ranged and Mage
Its weapons will remain all class, but most weapons were reworked or replaced with new ones

[bright crag]

That'd work
But it's a decently extreme change

[spark ravine]

to quote the future content doc on aerialite weapon reworks (unless this is outdated):

1 weapon remained untouched in its name and functionality, 2 weapons had changes to their functionality but not name and that 5 brand new weapons are currently making up the set.

[bright crag]

It's not outdated

[alpine dawn]

yeah, but i think cutting down on bloat is what this mod kinda needs

[spark ravine]

I wonder what the untouched weapon is?

[bright crag]

It's Wind Blade

[spark ravine]

holy shit my guess was right

[alpine dawn]

crabulon is funny and all, but genuinely why is he needed in this mod

[spark ravine]

I mean, it has the best gimmick of the set: having a gimmick at all, so I guess it isn't that surprising.

[bright crag]

Yeah, but that might not be a very popular change, as it will delete bosses people might like and delete songs people definitely like
And it will definitely take a good deal of effort

[bright crag]

It didn't need to be
But that's the burden of being an old mod that wasn't intricately planned from the start

[spark ravine]

no idea crabulon of all bosses has a resprite planned

[alpine dawn]

i dont think he does

[bright crag]

He does, actually

[alpine dawn]

yeah, ig. i know it wouldnt be popular, and im not saying its a good idea

[alpine dawn]

oh? is it in the theory doc or sumn

[spark ravine]

according to the resprite doc, yea

[alpine dawn]

i thought it was discontinued after the 22 incident

[bright crag]

There is a concept art that we recently picked up again
The concept art was made after 22

[wide river]

Iirc Optrix took it up to keep it updated

[bright crag]

So it still applies

[alpine dawn]

can someone send the doc?

[spark ravine]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kpK0y4ZyhBT2_PbAAXN0_NLVt6JHxj1c12XgQOrpNuQ/edit

[bright crag]

We want to resprite Crabulon to make it more interesting, give its design more potential for cool attacks, and to better express its connection to the Sunken Sea

Because people playing the mod simply won't make that connection naturally, as of current

It's absurdly obscure

[alpine dawn]

is any of the concept art public, or naur?

[bright crag]

DS and Slime God resprites are public iirc

Signus and DoG resprites have some public spoilers

[spark ravine]

I can forgive a boss' existence being slightly pointless its simply fun to fight, where I do feel calamity does kinda fall into a "WIP" category. Though more exploration content through biome reworks rightfully seems to be taking top priority atm.

[alpine dawn]

i meant the concept art, not the sprites 'n stuff. i have seen those and they look very good

[bright crag]

The concept art isn't

[alpine dawn]

i c

i wouldnt be surprised if it was buried in the depths of someone like birds' twitter, but i'm not gonna look that deep

[crude geode]

I remember making a suggestion about making crabulon drop shroomite bars post plantera

it got to dev and got rejected but I can’t remember why

[drowsy plank]

that sounds incredibly goofy anyway

crabulon doesnt have connections to chlorophyte and he already drops glowing mushrooms

[alpine dawn]

crabulon is goofy as a whole

[drowsy plank]

sure, but crabulon randomly dropping a jungle material sounds even more goofy than he already is; it's like if idk eye of cthulhu dropped luminite post-Moon Lord because they're both related to cthulhu

[bright crag]

^

Besides, Crabulon has no ties to the Jungle

[crude geode]

Shroomite has ties to the jungle?

[alpine dawn]

you could argue that he has enough of a tie due to the glowing mushroom thing. still silly though

[bright crag]

It's made with Chlorophyte so, yes

Why would he drop a late HM Jungle/Mushroom hybrid bar, while being a pre-HM giant crab boss

[crude geode]

I associate both shroomite and crabulon more with mushroom biome Byeah

Crabulon is truly the most relic of relics tbfh

But it’s also pretty much impossible to remove him since he’s so iconic

[novel belfry]

I would be pissed if they got rid of Hive Mind, that's actually among my favorite bosses in the entire mod

[alpine dawn]

Why

[sand marlin]

You do realize TE is literally the definition of skill

Has the highest velocity out of any weapon at that stage

[peak mulch]

Bro did u really scroll that high for this message

[sand marlin]

I didn't scroll up

That's the newest message for me

I am reading down anyway

[peak mulch]

Dragon breath?

[sand marlin]

What about it?

It has nowhere near comparable velocity

[peak mulch]

What weapon

Has the highest velocity

[sand marlin]

.

Tyranny's End

The sniper weapon

[peak mulch]

its kinda annoying to use on scal

U miss a shot and u get another chance to hit after 2 seconds

If u miss again thats 4 seconds of not dealing damage

[sand marlin]

That doesn't really say anything about what I said

You either hit your shots or you don't, that's why it's skilled and really hard to hit all your shots.

A sniper weapon obviously requires the highest skill to use like always

[peak mulch]

I decided yesterday to kill exomechs first anyway

Bcs killing exomechs will give me good weapons for scal and make it easier, but scal wont give me weapons that would make exomechs easier

[sand marlin]

Condemnation is good on A&A, it replaces TE

You already have Chicken Cannon for Ares and Nanogun for Thanatos

Anyway that's getting off topic so I'll stop

[oblique otter]

Considering that staff of necrosteocytes are going to be reworked(afaik), I don't think it'll be implemented? I could be wrong though.

[drowsy plank]

@muted cradle do you know how broken that weapon is right now? regardless this is a balance thing so it belongs in balance forum, and also yes it is getting reworked because it is busted out the ass right now

also hey @grim tusk would you consider these;
#suggestions-voting message
#suggestions-voting message

to be inconsistencies and therefore should be locked/in bug forum?

[grim tusk]

Summoner one is

Scal box prob not

[grave zinc]

@kindred creek - Your suggestion has received an updated status!

[Unify Summoner Minion Increase Tool Tips]

It has been decided that your suggestion can neither be passed nor denied; either the devs have already made plans that conflict with it, or they have decided to implement an altered version.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message

[drowsy plank]

should be moved to bug forum under tooltip inconsistencies

just an fyi to u

[drowsy plank]

doesn't the merchant sell coffee with gives exquisitely stuffed for longer that either of those or something

[fleet grotto]

10 minutes of Plenty Satisfied, according to the vanilla wiki

[drowsy plank]

oh no it's 10 minutes but

yeah but that is also

preBoss

[fleet grotto]

Unaware if calamity changes that

[drowsy plank]

[fleet grotto]

I think the main issue is the 50 silver price tag, which is just insane

[drowsy plank]

zoologist sells steaks in hardmode which give 16 minutes of exq stuff tho lol

ur acting like money has any actual value in calamity

[fleet grotto]

It makes something else completely redundant that you can get at the exact same time

Although that's also true for what you said about the steak

[drowsy plank]

this is just kinda the inherent downside of having like 2 dozen different food items

i think that calamity has a better system than vanilla when it comes to them, but it still isn't great

[fleet grotto]

agreed

[buoyant idol]

Solution: Simply undo all Calamity changes to boss summons and food selling

[sand marlin]

Exquisitely stuffed before the obtainability nerfs in vanilla was cracked sure because you could just get some fish and you would have an infinite amount
Now you can not realistically sustain exq stuffed without a mob farm ever and even in pre hardmode the only thing that'd drop steak in a basic cavern farm is miner which is not common so you would have to sit there for far longer in pre hardmode compared to a hallow farm in hardmode

I'd say exq stuffed is fine in vanilla after fish were nerfed

[stray warren]

pigronatas just exist

[buoyant idol]

I think it'd be easier to say whatever to the problem and let it be how it is in vanilla. Exquisitely Stuffed is meant to be the hard to get and shouldn't be balanced around to begin with. I feel that Calamity often tries fixing problems and ends up making new problems in its place when QoL mods exist to solve those. Take infinite boss summons. Sure, it made fighting bosses easier for better or worse, but it ended up crashing the economy. If someone wants to have that, they'll get a mod for it. Instead, Calamity ends up increasing its workload by adding QoL like this and creating problems that might as well outweigh the original problem. I get some things like the early hardmode rework and weapon tweaks, but things like food selling, respawn timer (which had to be band-aided via config,) reforge rework, selling rare weapon drops, etc. Potion selling is a perfect example of this, Calamity tried to add a grind reducing thing, which made balance pandemonium with the economy craziness. It all turned into a big fiasco before essentially being removed outright. It seems that more issues are being made because of said changes. Perhaps it'd be best to scale back on them since more QoL often leads into less downtime between bosses. Things like these are how Calamity got labeled as the boss rush mod in the first place, so maybe it'd be best to give up trying to fix them. Terraria is a flawed game, and that's why it's charming. If people want to make changes to it, there are other mods out there for that.

The Angler is another example, all it did was remove the chance from the equation. Sure, it may be better, but there are numerous other mods that do something like that. Calamity is a content mod, but it's trying to be the everything mod. Not all the changes are bad such as dodge cooldown and Velocity Based Contact damage, but those are directly related to the combat of this mod. Some of the smaller changes like buffing and nerfing weapons are necessary too, but less is better. If possible, a QoL solution should be avoided for problems that don't have to do with the mod directly since it's practically rewriting the game to be less Terraria and more Calamity.

[random talon]

calamity singularity theory ^

[crude geode]

“It’s practically rewriting the game to be less terraria and more calamity”
that…is indeed the point

Calamity has always somewhat adopted that design philosophy, it just hasn’t extended it outside of combat/boss fights

It’s why vanilla weapons are rebalanced and progression is reworked

[bright crag]

^ it is the point

I do agree that some changes have caused more trouble than good

It often is QoL that wasn't given due attention

[lavish condor]

I feel like less vanilla mechanic changes unrelated to the mod's balance is better than more. Some of the changes Calamity does just seem unnecessary to me.

[grizzled harness]

did Ceaseless Void bug? i cant kill it after 15s

[buoyant idol]

I agree on the progression changes, it's the QoL I don't like.

I'd say it's not worth Calamity's time to focus on things like that when other mods are doing that and rather to dedicate resources to reworks and additions.

[bright crag]

QoL changes are rarely complicated to implement
The problem is implementing them recklessly

We just need to be more careful

[buoyant idol]

I'd argue the opposite could be said, due to their simplistic nature they should be ignored and left for other mods in most cases.

There are teams such as Fargo's out there that specializes in things like this, so there's no need to spend resources reinventing the wheel when said problems aren't that detrimental.

[glass arch]

qol is a form of content

just because theres other mods out there dedicated to qol doesnt mean you shouldnt add some to your own mod

[buoyant idol]

True, but it seems like Calamity is investing a ton of resources into a thing that few players are complaining about. Sometimes, I'd agree in the case of things like the Angler's stuff since although there is an Angler Shop mod and there is definitely a large overlap, other people may prefer the Calamity implementation.

Other things such as the potion selling seemed like a way to fulfill what AlchNPC already does and has done for many years.

Even things that aren't recklessly added seem out of place, such as Tile Placement Speed Bonus when Marinite is already a far more interactive way to do so.

The Infinite Boss Summons even relied on another mod installing itself with Calamity for a couple updates. That already shows that such changes aren't needed, and now the economy is busted due to this and cannot ever be reverted by suggesting due to people not liking being nerfed or losing QoL.

[glass arch]

that is what it was for originally iirc

the devs didnt like alchnpc and decided to do what alchnpc did but in cal so people wouldnt need it

money being too easy to come by in cal is an issue thats separate from just boss summons being non consumable

not saying it isnt exacerbated by boss summons being non consumable, but it also comes from other sources

[misty sigil]

like money sources being dramatically easier and quicker to farm in modded

most people don't play with only calamity

they have QoL shit that makes everything much easier

[buoyant idol]

True, and Calamity should instead assume that players are using other mods instead of enabling QoL for people who may not even want it.

[misty sigil]

A lot of Calamity's QoL stuff is optional though

Hell, even some of Calamity's bigger gameplay overhauls are optional. Great example being the early HM ore rework

[buoyant idol]

Excluding changes made for balancing such as damage and non-linearity, there is:

Angler Quest Buff
Evil Island (Pretty sure this one is being removed actually)
Graveyards needing more graves
Frozen Lungs
Boulder Nerf
Respawn timer (fixed with config, but still)
Tile Placement Speed Buff
Spawn rate changer buffs (Zerg and Zen exist)
NPCs selling dungeon items and various other rare items
NPCs selling food
NPCs selling non-combat potions
Reforge RNG rework (Money breaker #1)
Non Consumable Boss Summons (Money breaker #2)
Bosses drop more money (Money breaker #3)
Treasure bags using alternative formula to give more loot (Money Breaker #4, but could stay)
Exclamation Points above NPCs (This one should stay, but I have to include it)
Voodoo Demon spawn rate buff (This one ended poorly)
Cultists respawn quicker
Caster AI no damage

There are far more, but I'd prefer to not compound upon this wall of text besides;
Armors needing less ores to craft (Mining armor rework? Solution already exists)

[glass arch]

reforge rng rework is extremely good because god fucking damn it is so bad in vanilla

[buoyant idol]

However, that removes the biggest money sink in the game.

[glass arch]

which is a good thing

[sand marlin]

Can't really balance stuff through assumption of external mods though

[glass arch]

because reforges in vanilla are bad

[buoyant idol]

No? That's why money is worthless in Calamity.

[drowsy plank]

that is not it

[glass arch]

sitting in one place clicking the same button for 10 minutes is not good game design

[sand marlin]

Ok so just like get another money sink that is NOT reforges

[drowsy plank]

reforges being badly designed is not what makes money valuable in vanilla

[glass arch]

maybe you get legendary first roll, maybe it takes ten minutes of reforging

[drowsy plank]

calamity has other issues in relation to it, and even in vanilla money has issues because NPCs Really Do Be Like That Sometimes (looking at you, pirate)

[sand marlin]

It kind of is but reforges are stupid and should not be like how vanilla has it

[glass arch]

its badly designed

[drowsy plank]

i mean even if that is what makes money valuable in vanilla

that's dumb

[buoyant idol]

I'd argue that the best reforges weren't meant to be gotten on everything. If someone dislikes the system, they install another mod that explicitly designs itself upon solving the problem.

[drowsy plank]

stacking two dumb systems doesnt make them good it just makes it twice as dumb

yeah calamity is one of them

because that's how we balance things

[glass arch]

^

[drowsy plank]

you're acting like these changes were made in a vacuum and not with the explict design philosphy in mind

[royal tapir]

Calamity is designed to be mostly standalone

[buoyant idol]

Yeah, that's a separate issue from that line of thinking.

[sand marlin]

Yeah, that's pretty much it, since bad reforging is gone now we can look away from that and just focus on something better

[glass arch]

calamity is balanced with best weapon reforges and highest tier accessory reforges

[buoyant idol]

I understand that, but isn't the main point of modded is to choose what you want?

[drowsy plank]

i mean, sure but like

[glass arch]

the main point of modded is to change the game

[drowsy plank]

that's not the main point of calamity

if you choose calamity, calamity chooses to be a mostly standalone experience

[royal tapir]

Now I'm confused what the take is even supposed to be here

[drowsy plank]

no clue!!!

[buoyant idol]

[worthy lintel]

the fuck is going on rn

[glass arch]

nobody knows

[drowsy plank]

something something qol

[royal tapir]

Not suggestion discussion

[buoyant idol]

Anyways, the point I've been (failing) to make is that Calamity shouldn't try to be a standalone experience and to not invest as much into basic QoL.

[glass arch]

its called basic qol for a reason

[drowsy plank]

cool point; it would make balancing hellish so it's probably not going to happen

[glass arch]

as in its a basic part of every experience whether you install separate mods for it or not

[buoyant idol]

I'd say to get an idea of what QoL should look like, Thorium does a fantastic job. Take the cook, it provides an alternative form of potion getting in the form of an extra health potion. While the latter is highly unbalanced, the former is interesting as it requires exploring the world to get said things. If Calamity is to continue adding QoL, it shouldn't use the current approach where any issue detected is solved with some changes that range from decent to game breaking at times. Either put more effort into each one to make a more engaging and interactive mod or leave it to other mods. I'd argue that a combination of the two could work, but I definitely lean more towards the latter.

[glass arch]

:whar:

[buoyant idol]

I spend way too much time thinking about things like this.

[glass arch]

i still dont know what your point is

[buoyant idol]

Current QoL is overbearing and lackluster at the same time, either make it more interesting or scrap it.

[misty sigil]

real

[glass arch]

what

what qol is overbearing

[misty sigil]

current QoL is completely fine and usually optional anyway

[buoyant idol]

NPCs selling food, it removes any form of grind for food since it can be bought with 2 gold from your 49 platinum dragon hoard in early hardmode.

[regal willow]

doesn't calamity already remove food items from mob drop table

🍵

[drowsy plank]

yeah

im pretty sure the current design of food in calamity is because the desire is to, at some point in the future, give all the food unique effects

and ones which are not compatiable with each other

which i think is an interesting idea

no clue if that is still in the works but

i hope so

[buoyant idol]

If that is in the works, then I retract my statements about food.

[novel belfry]

I think the main problem with why people grab alchnpc for potions + the previous npc potion selling in calamity is that the best way in vanilla to get them is to do this weird farming thing that might not be easily known

and that's only half the equation, since potions also often use fish (and sometimes other ingredients) for their recipes

so you have to do TWO diverting activities to get potions, which is a lot

calamity does have an alternative method of "Blood Moons now drop Blood Orbs that with the power of the Alchemy Table can craft just about every potion aside from Cirrus's drinks"

but it bears knowing that farming and fishing for potion ingredients is a vanilla thing that isn't the best...

[crude geode]

Wiki game moment

[fathom dome]

you just buy blood moon summon from deviantt and convert it into blood orbs

[regal willow]

well to be fair, it is another mod

[bright crag]

Farming should be significantly more bearable in Calamity

Fishing... not sure how to encourage people to do it, considering some people avoid it like the Plague

But changing potion yields could help

[flat cipher]

i honestly wish i could toggle the changes to summoner that calamity does to nerf it into the ground compared to vanilla because my opinion on balance is that class is no longer really fun to experience like i do in vanilla. Not a big fan of how little defense I get and getting two-shot by just about anything due to these changes.

[fervent orbit]

uhm

what

calamity doesnt make summoner less tanky

[mystic sandal]

Summoner is buffed in calamity if anything xd

Because kaleidoscope and there’s so many good summoner weapons

[fervent orbit]

arguably more tanky by:
having warding scale
more defensive accessories
lessen the defence difference between summoner and other sets
give summoner accessories defensive value
silvas immunity

[mystic sandal]

Oh yeah Silva just lets you choose to not die xd

[buoyant idol]

Yeah, summoner was always that squishy and Calamity makes it less so.

[mystic sandal]

anyone remember the days of using obsidian up to golem lmao

[drowsy plank]

when 1.4 first dropped?

[stable kiln]

tell me you never played summoner in calamity without telling me you never played summoner in calamity

[worthy lintel]

💀