And unless it's T Hanos, I don't think many casuals would be skilled enough to true melee Thanatos
Or interested in
#suggestions-discussion
bright crag
Yeah, in the case of hearts I can understand because they don't deal damage
But Thanatos does, and staying near him seems like a huge risk
frosty trellis
It's less of one than people think
Staying close to Ohio is harder and riskier but that's just how I dodge Exo Twins (And also the only reason I can keep my sanity doing Murasama only exos twice and D.Rage only exos)
bright crag
Yeah, but I doubt many people would do that
frosty trellis
Well I'm not changing how I fight exo twins
Most people wouldn't use Statis's Void Sash either but it's my go to post Yharon
frosty trellis
Fair
Ataraxia is you didn't use the T.Melee effect on exos I can see how that goes
Or rather, the t.melee on Thanatos but yeah
That would probably be a lot longer and P5 Thanatos would be painful
bright crag
Also, I don't think using Sash is too weird?
I mean, for SCal, dashes can be a risk, so some people just don't use them whatsoever
And for Exos, I guess the only advantage a ram has over a regular dash is ramming Thanatos' coil
frosty trellis
A lot of people use Aegis still for the defensive benefits and stuff (And because they probably see 90 seconds on the dodge and think it's too weak)
I am a void sash user because I find the dodge and longer dash much more valuable
The dashes can be risky but the longer dash for post bh4 SCal have saved my ass
But yeah let me try no t.melee on Thanatos and see how that goes
@bright crag Even without t.meleeing Thanatos (Outside of GDR) it's still op
Order:
Ares Start (So when twins come out they move less and are easier to hit)
Exo Twins to 70
Kill Ares
Thanatos to 70
Kill Exo Twins
Kill Thanatos
bright crag
So, a minor nerf it is :p
I am currently on an older version, when I go back to the most recent one I'll check AotC
stable kiln
ataraxia's state is mostly bloated because of melee speed, but because melee speed is weird i do think its damage can be lowered a bit
frosty trellis
It does scale with melee speed but a slight nerf is in order for sure
frosty trellis
Hey @inner anvil Wither blossoms is ridiculously broken
inner anvil
Also, I've known that it was overpowered with a long time, I just can't nerf it so easily.
For reasons.
frosty trellis
How so?
frosty trellis
Kk
stable kiln
oh wither blossoms are hilarious yeah
post golem summoner overall is in a ridiculously overpowered state right now, even without whips
crude geode
Has tempest ever been good
frosty trellis
In 1.2 Vanilla 
stable kiln
i mean not all of them obviously
but res butterfly, wither blossoms, infected remote
these things are super powerful
frosty trellis
Fair
Remote not so much as wither but yeah
Cells/Prisma + Wither kills ML in basically the same amount of time as Cells/Prisma + Wither + Remote
frosty trellis
maybe my test was off
Test was with no rippers
Plaguebringer armor
Fishron Wings
Asgards Valor
Angel Treds
Star-Tainted Generator
Statis's Curse
Papyrus Scarab
3 menacing 3 warding
All possible buffs that are alcohols or spiteful candles that can be acquired we're used
lucid flare
stardust cell gang
bright crag
Remote my beloved
crude geode
this sugg is fine but damn is it worded aggressively
ruby plover
not only is it aggressive
its also... literally false
none of ares' segments do any contact damage, wiki states that much and i just know as well
royal tapir
Isn't this that thing with Infernum
crude geode
@frosty trellis
frosty trellis
yeah I was thinking I dont remember ares doing contact
I've literally had it happen several times today
cobalt pewter
proof?
frosty trellis
I'll get some recordings
cobalt pewter
you might be hit by a projectile just as it's overlapping with Ares' sprite
frosty trellis
I don't think so?
cobalt pewter
byeah better have a recording if this is really a thing
frosty trellis
Not when ares just spawns and then just attacks me like that
Yeah
I will work on it
cobalt pewter
and maybe amend your sugg to include that
frosty trellis
Fair
frosty trellis
Okay now exos are breaking on me what
frosty matrix
Doesn't Ares become static during his laser wheel attack? Are you not able to take contact damage then?
small timber
ares should not be doing contact damage like, at all
frosty trellis
I was taking contact damage then bc i was flying up into him
frosty trellis
I am for some reason unable to replicate it as EXOS ARE BREAKING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY
cobalt pewter
try messing with your enabled mods
disable everything but cal, for example
and I meant everything
even your cheat sheet and silly testing mods
frosty trellis
RIP my permabuffs
I'll do so when tMod actually decides to behave bc it's being really buggy rn
Exos will literally not let me summon them for some reason despite no mod changes at all
I'll delete the sugg until I can give evidence
No
My mods haven't changed in AWHILE
And it's not lag itself
tMod decided to just not want to work for some reason
cobalt pewter
what's the consensus on respriting vanilla content without texture packs even
drowsy plank
there is none
lol
the bloody machete in the corner be like
the blade glove in the corner be like
cobalt pewter
god
drowsy plank
also to be fair it isn't even respriting because there... is no sprite
like daybroken just has a placeholder bc it isn't supposed to be seen
much like how warped is a placeholder for the bleed effect of the blood butcherer which is going to be a Whole Thing when it ports to Calamity
fathom aspen
few items have that bleed right
but more than 10 weapons have Daybroken
it can be considered as one of the common debuffs postML imo
short walrus
i think the consensus was "yeah we'll do that"
crude geode
@frail mantle bad joke in #suggestions-posting
hollow shell
@empty panther That joke is kinda in bad taste
Not only are joke suggs disallowed but that borders on being anti-LGBT
hollow shell
uhh idk
I should only be on it for a couple more days anyway
probably
kindred basin
if you ping rover when the icon is red it means you'll die to a laser beam immediately
sand ermine
how do you even
go into the sulphurous seas while fighting yharon???
oh wait nevermind
im silly 
small timber
probably just delete the yharon example, yharon dont have biome enrage
sand ermine
its only height/outside pillar enrage right
small timber
yharon has a purely height enrage that you most likely will never get over unless you dig your arena underground and let it go all the way to space
@alpine dawn also, I remember a similar suggestion posted before
but was denied purely because of technical reason (I think?)
this too
since old duke is the main problem, probably just change it to something like making old duke's biome enrage less strict?
alpine dawn
I don't really get why, seems silly. But alright.
Not the OD thing, I agree with that.
small timber
technical reason = aka coding issue
alpine dawn
Ah, right.
drowsy plank
just
place sulph sea blocks...
lmao
@alpine dawn okay barring the fact that's it's really difficult coding wise to do that you can just... place sulph sea blocks to expand it manually?? if you need more room i mean. and like acctuate them so they still count towards the biome but don't get in your way
swift wharf
can I just say that ele quiver giving 20% ammo eco + 20% arrow eco is extremely funny
swift wharf
just make it a global 36%
small timber
just make it global 50%
what does ammo crafting cost even means at that stage of the game anyway
swift wharf
surely 100% drop rate miniboss relics will have no problems whatsoever
eternal escarp
i think its because vanilla comparability
nevermind
it only seems to happen for moon event bosses and its an increasing chance to 100% i think
swift wharf
I'd say make drop rate a 100% but then reduce it later
like clam having 100% in prehm but 25% in hm
lucid flare
surely 100% drop rate miniboss relics will have no problems whatsoever
free mony
swift wharf
there are better ways to farm money
swift wharf
100% drop rate for cragmaw would be annoying during t3 acid rain
small timber
I thought it will be annoying initially too, but after giving it more thought I think it is fine
obtaining 10 copies of a relic or by luck obtaining 1 copy occupy the same 1 inventory slot
(unless you are trying to trash it constantly but with void bags and such I dont think it is needed)
swift wharf
yeah but
100% drop rate for an early-hm enemy during post-ml is not needed
same for clam
mauler can get a 100% drop rate though
((and a higher sulphuric acid cannon droprate as well))
frosty trellis
Mauler needs a higher spawnrate in general
small timber
calamity uses the simultaneous drop rate or whatever, so they are never mutually exclusive (you can have WOF dropping all 5 emblems at once or something)
so just fight the boss some more time
tardy smelt
@frosty trellis do you know anything about how well Elemental Shiv performs?
frosty trellis
<@701981133109329941> do you know anything about how well Elemental Shiv perform...
4 seconds above MNL in tester gear moment
swift wharf
looks decent in a normal game
frosty trellis
definitely a weapon of all time
Lmaoooooo
I've seen some crazier shit than Ele Shiv before
Gotten Event Horizon a 1:57 Yharon kill before and didn't even pop silva revive so couldn't just Silva immunity tank
tardy smelt
Oh gosh
hollow shell
@lime condor The correct channel for asking that is #help-advice-read-pins
glass arch
@lime condor wrong channel lmfao
lime condor
hollow shell
lol
jagged zealot
Alright @hollow shell alright, posted like you said.
frosty trellis
This is the 2nd time I've seen a meld furniture sugg
Last one didn't pass voting iirc
frosty trellis
Huh
I swore there was at some point
Using it to match like a more futuristic theme
hollow shell
nawh thats not the direction it should go in
Eldritch all the way, more like Lesion furniture
or even Coral
frosty trellis
Fair enough
hollow shell
Idea I had when this got brought up was making all the Meld furniture be physically larger than other sets, take up more tile space
Cuz the Meld weapons are all unusually large, as if not designed for humans, which is a cool thing about em
frosty trellis
That's just what I remember it being suggested for
frosty trellis
Idea I had when this got brought up was making all the Meld furniture be physica...
Fair enough
That would be cool
frosty trellis
Maybe with eldritch furniture we can finally take the 2 slots off of ESA
frail mantle
meld my beloved
edgy oriole
anybody wanna join me if so add me and call me
jagged zealot
anybody wanna join me if so add me and call me
???
wrong chat?
edgy oriole
sorry
median geyser
Fail rp or something idk I never played thorium
crude geode
@mystic umbra this can't be done yet
mystic umbra
ohh ok
grim tusk
Meld furniture 
errant wren
is... is that it? is nobody gonna say anything else?
short walrus
about what
hollow shell
is... is that it? is nobody gonna say anything else?
Bout what?
errant wren
just like, one thing was said about Meld Furniture and expected more activity in an hour.
short walrus
a whole discussion doesn't need to be had on the addition of a furniture set
compared to things like balance, item tiering, removals etc. it's just not a big deal
errant wren
yeah but like, i just thought there would like more activity in an entire hour like there usually is
i don't know i guess it kind of bugged me for some reason
short walrus
sometimes "Meld furniture " is all that needs to be said i guess
errant wren
i guess
hollow shell
(There was more talk about it if you scroll up)
(also discussion about it started here in gen-talk #general-talk message )
grave zincBOT
@wary pier - Your suggestion has received an updated status!
[Add favorable item to prevent Cultists from spawning near Dungeon]
It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message
@tame mountain - Your suggestion has received an updated status!
[Give most bosses unique spawning ways and natural spawn occureances to them]
It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message
@median geyser - Your suggestion has received an updated status!
[Make Sulphurous sand and Astral sand usable with the sand gun]
It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message
@shut marten - Your suggestion has received an updated status!
[Make the Wulfrum Acrobatics Pack equipped in the hook slot]
It has been reviewed by the devs, and for one reason or another they decided it would be best not to implement it.
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message
@small timber - Your suggestion has received an updated status!
[Make Space Ore Planetoid Generate Non-Duplicated Ore (until there are at least one of each)]
It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message
@river path - Your suggestion has received an updated status!
[Buff the power of Necro Armor by giving it a unique set bonus]
It has been voted upon, and the devs decided it would be a good idea to implement it. This doesn't guarantee implementation, as plans may change/alternate plans may be made, but it does highly improve chances!
You can check out your suggestion again here: #suggestions-voting message
drowsy plank
wild
short walrus
damn, good lot of suggestions got in
frosty trellis
The necro armor thing finally got in lesgo
small timber
now just pumpkin armor, bee armor and ninja armor left
ninja armor current stat is fucking despair
half sage
short walrus
what are the bee armour stats then
small timber
I need to check, but I remember it being just a worse version of Aerospec summoner
willow widget
small timber
yeah you get +1 minion, aerospec give a valkyrie minion instead
though I remember it is something else that make bee so much worse in comparison
Bee: 23% damage, 2 minion slot, 13 defense
Aerospec summoner: 16% damage, 1 minion slot, 17% MS, 15 defense, set bonus: valkyrie minion (around 40 DPS), basically star cloak effect, quick fall
oh right I compared it to pre-nerf obsidian which is why bee was so garbage in comparison
Obsidian: 31% damage, 15 defense, 1 minion slot, setbonus: fireblock and lava immunity, 50% whip range 35% whip speed
but ya I just realised aerospec in general is just not a very good set, especially compare to ore armors and the evil armor (crimson and shadow)
frosty trellis
Yeah
Aerospec is basically only good for Ranger since ranger doesn't have other options
Jungle gives more damage for mage, Melee has molten armor, summoner bee/obi, rogue sulfur armor is still surpreme
short walrus
at least the rogue, summon and ranged helmets are dying with their eventual reworks, so we dont have to worry about them specifically anymore
frosty trellis
Yeah
Mage helm could use some love
Melee idk how you're going to just replace Molten like that
It's so good
glass arch
doesnt wizard hat+diamond robe+jungle/meteor pants outclass almost every other pre-hardmode mage set
frosty trellis
Pretty much
frosty trellis
Yeah for defense but the damage is kinda crazy
I also really do not like the fast fall set bonus from aerospec
glass arch
aerospec is mid just because you use it for like 2 bosses
small timber
even for ranger I think just crimson armor is better now
fat life regen + good damage (and of course earlier in progression)
frosty trellis
Seriously?
small timber
meanwhile statigel is very good, abit too good (for some reason)
frosty trellis
What's the comparison between ranger aero and crimson?
small timber
let me check
frosty trellis
Oh Statigel is wild
It's great for all classes but summoner
As bee is just better for summoner
short walrus
Yeah for defense but the damage is kinda crazy
personally i prefer not being a squishy little bean
glass arch
isnt statigel comparable to t1 hardmode ore armors
frosty trellis
Yeah
small timber
it give you +1 jump and extra iframe (since you generally take more than 100 damage easily depend on difficulty)
frosty trellis
Especially Spider and Titan Heart as they are wild
frosty trellis
it give you +1 jump and extra iframe (since you generally take more than 100 dam...
True yeah
glass arch
for mage i always go for palladium because even with the extra iframes from statigel you die super fast, so i think its mainly melee and ranged that could use it the best
small timber
ok it gives 12% jump speed too because why not
but ya let me grab aerospec ranger and crimson
glass arch
15% extra damage and 3 life regen on crimson
small timber
Crimson: 15% damage and +3 life regen, 19 defense, Set bonus: Greatly increased life regen (I have no idea how much this is so I will left it here)
Aerospec ranger: 8% damage, 8% crit, 17% MS, 18 defense, Setbonus: star cloak and quick fall
short walrus
whats crimsons def
glass arch
19
small timber
yeah, forgot to wrote it
short walrus
zamn
small timber
so except for quick fall crimson is just better
short walrus
aerospec fucking sucks lmao
glass arch
the quick fall isnt good either tho
small timber
meanwhile shadow: 19 defense, 15% damage, 21% jumpspeed, setbonus: 15% MS and acceleration
yeah quick fall is super awkward to use
glass arch
unless you want to spend most of the time fighting a boss falling you dont need it
small timber
I only find it useful against skeletron (maybe queen bee on high difficulty), but that is literally it, I will rather unequip it for other bosses
glass arch
i dont even put on aerospec for most playthroughs
north oracle
i only ever use aerospec for ranger yeah
small timber
for skeletron is mostly because the fight involve a lot of flying up and drop down anyway
small timber
Crimson: 15% damage and +3 life regen, 19 defense, Set bonus: Greatly increased ...
meanwhile you compare statigel ranger to it and aerospec is absolutely pathethic
15% damage, 12% crit, 5% MS, 25 defense, Setbonus: 12% jump speed, +1 double jump and increased jump height (bottle + frog leg), take over 100 damage = 30 more iframe (for reference cross necklace is 40)
frosty trellis
Wait so if you take 100 damage and have cross necklace you have almost the 2 second iframe cap
That's just
Wtf
small timber
which is why "statigel is a bit too good"
frosty trellis
Yeah kill the iframe part of that at the very least jesus christ
That thing is 3 accessories in an armor set
Without taking into account damage benefits
small timber
the weird part is statigel is not that good for pre-HM, you rarely take above 100 damage (unless you do master mode or FTW), and the double jump is not super useful yet
but its usefulness sky rocket in HM as having double jump basically "jumpstart" your wings midair and allow you to gain max vertical speed immediately, and bosses constantly deal >100 damage to you = iframe almost always proccing
frosty trellis
Yeah
It's kinda insane
I'm going to be using that instead of palladium now LOL
Still keeping Mythril post 1 mech bc jesus why are the flares so broken but yeah
Speaking of Mythril flares
That needs to be toned the fuck down
Mythril VS Auric Tesla on SCal using SSV was only a minute slowewr
4:30 Auric, 5:30 Mythril
small timber
palladium: 23 damage, 12 crit, 32 defense, Setbonus = life regen effect
cobalt: 13 damage, 15 crit, 10 MS, 28 defense, Setbonus: 20% ammo reserve, 10% max speed and accel, up to max 10% damage and crit extra depend on MS
so ya statigel should be outclassing palladium, and also outclass cobalt on non-MS minmax build
frosty trellis
Yeah
And you don't need to minmax ms like ever so it's basically just statigel is better
Spider and Titan Heart outclass statigel but yeah
Melee/Mage/Ranger should use statigel bc it's broken as shit
And same with Mythril until Beetle/Shroomite/Spectre
tardy geyser
statigel does look a little better than bee, you lose a minion slot but the slime minion makes up for it and the slimes are good for wof. all of its other stats are the same or better
small timber
chlorophyte is good enough (on a different aspect) to contest I think, heal + AOE still nice
frosty trellis
The heal pulse is mp only though
small timber
mythril is maximized damage but chlorophyte a lot more survivability
frosty trellis
I thought
Mythril cuts down kts by like a full minute which is fucking obscene
Like Mythril flares being only a minute slower than mage auric tesla on scal should speak volumes on why that's not okay
small timber
chlorophyte have this so it is still very good (on the damage aspect), just ya mythril is overtuned as fuck
hollow shell
This suggestion is uhh
Yeah this will affect every single rogue weapon in the game and will involve rebalancing the entire class
It would replace the trade-off choice of Spam VS Stealth, with
Just keep spamming and sometimes your spam attacks will become way stronger
Essentially destroying one of Rogue's two key playstyles, and the one being destroyed is the one that makes Rogue different from all other classes
A ton of effort in service of making the class less interesting
small timber
(and also incredibly grand scale as a reconsideration in general)
neat linden
short walrus
so are you gonna ping the guy or
@solemn quarry this has absolutely no chance of happening
hollow shell
This suggestion is uhh
Sure
@solemn quarry
short walrus
oops
solemn quarry
Ah oh well
hollow shell
Sorry if I was overly aggressive in my evaluation
You did put thought into your suggestion, that is a lot of reasoning
I just heavily disagree with the idea presented, and the suggestion is too grand in scope to be valid
solemn quarry
Fair enough
fossil finch
ah, perfect sugg, rework rogue again
hot zephyr
thorn dock
how much sense does +15 defense while under a damaging debuff does the effect from astral arcanum make? the span is probably short and the bonus defense doesnt take place. In critical fights while mitigating a debuff, another hit taken might be the tombstone anyway? it feels just super lackluster to the community. One regens 3, the other one 2 (same progression point) or also 3 while under a debuff. On top stick has so much more bonuses ..... might change bonus defense while under a damaging debuff into sth else? think arcanum rework was suggested a few weeks ago
maybe change the orange part and just add some more flat defense to it?
unconditional
hollow shell
byeah that is pretty minor and quite situational by that point in the game
frosty trellis
It's pretty fucking bad
frosty trellis
At that point if you want more defense stacking valor and Elysian is better
thorn dock
how to add any value to it?
frosty trellis
Rework it
thorn dock
feels like 1/3 stick
hollow shell
Make this item an upgrade to the Shell Phone once 1.4.4 comes around, don't even make it an acc
thorn dock
well when comparing it to the stick the acc version could simply be removed indeed
the shell phone idea is great
hollow shell
Good suggestion
thorn dock
TY 🙃
umbral sonnet
who else thinks destroyer needs a resistance against SHPC
the thing destroys it
I just got a sub 20 second with it
first try
well
sub 30
hollow shell
Can someone grab a gif or video of the current appearance of Everglade Spray's attack?
hollow shell
Just green dust. I see
You can attach that to your suggestion, will help give people context
hollow shell
You can do that, that will allow the image to embed once it's moved to voting
You could edit it to put it as just a image link but that won't embed in voting, people will have to click it
little stag
okay thanks
hollow shell
(example #suggestions-voting message )
@fleet flume Saw that. Not currently possible in tModLoader unfortunately
Sprites have been created for them already. We'll implement them as soon as tMod allows for it
drowsy plank
can we just rework everglade spray considering cursed flames doesnt even have the DR reduction on it anymore
would be cooler if it just did something actually interesting
hollow shell
Wait it's not an ingredient in Ultra Liquidator anymore?
drowsy plank
everglade spray is a spellbook with 0 upgrades
hollow shell
UltraLiq kept Aqua Scepter too?
That's wack
Would've thought of UltraLiq as Infernal Rift + Everglade Spray any day
The projectile function of the former and the debuffing purpose of the latter
drowsy plank
yeah i agree tbh lmao
drowsy plank
it hasn't been part of it since august of 2020 tho lmao
little stag
it's like 2 seconds
bruh 2 seconds?
distant gyro
it's basically just rainbow sky fracture now
hollow shell
Liq
little stag
so it's a literal downgrade to Golden Shower?
hollow shell
Liq ain't an upgrade to Golden Shower anymore
Everglade actually does have respectable durations
drowsy plank
can we just remove the goddamn world evil component from UL it makes 0 sense
little stag
Everglade actually does have respectable durations
oh I thought you guys were talking about Everglade lol
distant gyro
it is a viable weapon
drowsy plank
oh I thought you guys were talking about Everglade lol
tbf everglade is included in this discussion bc it has like
no reason to exist
it used to be a component to UL but now it doesnt even have that
hollow shell
Very slight
little stag
at least
hollow shell
It doesn't even have much better base damage compared to Golden Shower
and CI doesn't have any effects beyond DoT anymore
And yet
Everglade is a post-Plantera weapon (mining Perennial),
Golden Shower post-WoF (find Wizard for tomes, farm Underground Evil for Ichor and Souls of Night)
fleet flume
<@661756486715703297> Saw that. Not currently possible in tModLoader unfortunate...
Okay, I wondered if that was the case.
drowsy plank
isn't it in the Don't's pinned doc that the bars are not suppported rn?
hollow shell
Yes it's in there
little stag
Everglade could be a stronger debuff weapon with some sort of penalty like taking dmg or also taking a debuff or something
drowsy plank
it could also just die bc it isn't interesting
maybe there's plans for it in the perrenial rework
fingers crossed ig
with a name like everglade you'd think it'd be more plant themed at least
cobalt pewter
little stag
or it could just have a longer range, so it can reach bosses more easily if it's gonna still exist
that's an idea I had alongside that visual thing, though it's 2 separate things so I needed to suggest one first
drowsy plank
golden gun lol
little stag
oh right
hollow shell
I like when weapons have a purpose to fulfill beyond DPS
Debuff weapons with low base damage, lifesteal weapons with low base damage, weapons with a slow or freeze and low base damage
Encourage weapon switching
So, I would like Everglade's intended purpose around that tier to still be fulfilled
It just sucks at fulfilling that purpose right now
I hope that at some point in the future, the Exo weapons lose their constant inflictions of Exo Freeze
Makes it impossible to strategize with the fact that we allow bosses to be briefly frozen now
little stag
it could also just die bc it isn't interesting <:XD:936106628833488906>
I don't think the idea is too bad
it's just that an interesting upgrade to Golden Shower isn't too easy to execute which still does the same thing as Golden Shower
drowsy plank
betsy's wrath 
little stag
I never used that weapon before
hollow shell
Betsy's Wrath is a good and cool weapon
drowsy plank
literally is the vanilla golden shower upgrade, fires large splashable meteors that inflict a defense lowering debuff
hollow shell
The fact that it inflicts a defense-reducing debuff that is near-exclusive to it, and stacks with other defense reductions
Makes it a valuable weapon
drowsy plank
like unless everglade just abandons the golden shower upgrade path entirely idk how u really improve that (i would like it to abandon trying to be a golden shower upgrade)
crude geode
more upgrade paths for everything ever
little stag
the weapon as a weapon is cool
but as an upgrade, it's just better Ichor essentially
crude geode
No mage weapon can ever just be unique it has to steal from something else
fossil finch
U don't have the original truly sad times
crude geode
cringe Feedzuh moments
drowsy plank
lol
cobalt pewter
wtf!
(also if nothing else, mobile Discord is great for its built-in AMOLED black mode)
cobalt pewter
The fact that it inflicts a defense-reducing debuff that is near-*exclusive* to ...
kid named Rem's Revenge:
hollow shell
Unironically yes
Though it is a bit later in the game
and the duration is pretty low
crude geode
what’s a melee
drowsy plank
Rem's Revenge is actually viable rn so comparing it to Betsy's is actually accurate for once
crude geode
Just like Betsy’s it’s also forgotten about by 90% of the player base
frosty trellis
Rem's Revenge is actually viable rn so comparing it to Betsy's is actually accur...
It's like, the 4th best melee weapon for prov rn iirc?
drowsy plank
idr
drowsy plank
i dont like the destroyer fight but this is
not the problem with it
this just sounds like you don't know how to fight him
lmao
crude geode
rod is already incredibly easy to get
drowsy plank
god forbid you get coiled by a worm boss
crude geode
money is not a problem in calamity
drowsy plank
yeah
plain river
😔
tardy geyser
#suggestions-voting message the sulphurous sea already extents to the top of the world though?
yep doesnt enrage unless i go a few blocks to the right
small timber
@tardy zodiac I think the consideration is it is an active/intentional decision that if you decide to cheese like this it will be your own fault, same reason as to why teleporters are no longer disabled during boss fight
if you intentionally cheese the fight by doing things that are obviously not intended for the fight you should not be complaining about how bosses are cheesable (Nurse in Revengeance and below, portal gun, ceaseless hunger potion + heart statue, to name a few)
(personally I dont really agree with the approach, but it is the devs' decision so it is what it is)
distant gyro
if you implement an anticheese, where does the rabbit hole end
small timber
I think the rabbit hole ends at death mode basically
distant gyro
as in how far you take it
small timber
basically non-death mode every anti cheese is allowed, in death mode we disable (most) thinkable ones
distant gyro
this is modded terraria
small timber
imo mainly the ones that will invalidate boss fights completely (and) are under vanilla + calamity
short walrus
rubberbanding 
distant gyro
if you want to cheese something you might as well download other mods to make it free
small timber
infinite buff potions/god modes etc just let them be, it is players' fault for external mods
tardy zodiac
Im in death mode, I would personally implement anti cheese only in death mode. It seems like certain bosses already have some anti cheese\
small timber
mainly the ones that can be considered
short walrus
Im in death mode, I would personally implement anti cheese only in death mode. I...
it's a universal no
distant gyro
do you just ban every other mod from being used other than calamity because it has the potential to cheese if you intend to?
small timber
things like recall, teleporter (portal gun to certain extend but less), nurse etc
small timber
infinite buff potions/god modes etc just let them be, it is players' fault for e...
^
naive gale
I do think bosses should despawn or teleport to you more often though, stuff like exo mechs is way too easy to cheese with potion of return
small timber
imo at the very least "cheese" that is possible by using only calamity and vanilla should be disabled on death mode
tardy zodiac
^
small timber
because the difference is "how much it is intended by the devs"
if it is possible within calamity, then it is "intended by the devs to leave these cheese method in", if it uses external mods then "well you downloaded something we dont have control over so it is your own fault"
tardy zodiac
Despawning the boss like pyros said would be nice
distant gyro
if movement speed and tank builds get to the point of cheese then does there need to be a restriction to absolutely everything, too?
small timber
if those builds get to the point of becoming cheese then it is more likely a balancing issue then just cheese
cheese is when you use things like shimmer to get permanently invincibility, lava iframe, chain teleporters, nurse to get basically infinite HP etc
lavish condor
You teleporting away is the equivalent of the boss's prey getting away and the boss just giving up. Draedon would probably intervene if he saw his mechs getting stuck in a loop like magic conch spam
small timber
yes, but when it is so easily thought of then they should be considered
distant gyro
do hoiks need to go too
small timber
not everyone will go the length of MrJFL kinda cheese, but at the very least those that almost all players are immediately accessible should be dealt with
distant gyro
what about exploiting the npc caps
naive gale
hoiks are probably hard to fix though, giving exomechs the moonlord teleport should be somewhat easy(granted I have no idea how it's coded)
distant gyro
or afk contraptions
small timber
not everyone will go the length of MrJFL kinda cheese, but at the very least tho...
^
recall is as simple as pressing a magic mirror during a boss fight to immediately gain potentially half a map of distance from bosses to recover; but setting up extremely complex hoik contraption is different
distant gyro
people will do cheese when they intend to
small timber
not everyone is capable of doing the second
tardy zodiac
Setting up a couple thousand frozen slime blocks and using momentum is so easy
drowsy plank
rubberbanding <:suffering:433692378516291631>
rubberbanding 
distant gyro
it doesn't really solve the issue
small timber
exo much worm does that
oh right, your second suggestion is probably more a problem with momentum capacitor than DoG
short walrus
simply don't use momentum capacitor
drowsy plank
true!!!
small timber
oh right, your second suggestion is probably more a problem with momentum capaci...
(which there are plans to rework momentum capacitor which is happening soon™️ some point before year 2050, at least according to Memes)
distant gyro
if you're going to make cheesing insufferably hard with only vanilla and calamity in mind then
people are just gonna download an external mod to do it
lavish condor
If someone wants to take the long way around and trivialize the boss they should be able to do that. Setting up thousands of slime blocks is resource intensive and probably extremely tedious if you aren't using QoL mods. If you're that desperate it's not that out of the way to let you have it
distant gyro
remember that this is from the perspective of someone wanting to cheese
tardy zodiac
in other words just get good or cheese?
drowsy plank
i guess?
distant gyro
if you don't want to cheese then you're going to find an exploit and think to yourself "nah that's too unfair, I will do it normally"
small timber
imo:
the easy and obvious ones should be disabled
the complex and extremely hard to achieve one are fine
easy and obvious are things like nurse, recall, teleports (eg conch) etc; not sure how much teleporters falls on this but probably on the easy side; basically things that are super easy to think of, super easily executable and can be done in a short time
complex one are like hoik, heart statues setup + ceaseless hunger potion, frozen slime block etc; basically things that you have to go out of the way to intentionally make them happen in order to invalidate a boss fight
drowsy plank
when people go out of their way to cheese a boss;
"You cheated not only the game, but yourself. You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. You experienced a hollow victory. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference."
tardy zodiac
Thats exactly what i thought with exo. I just think it shouldnt work in the firsat place
small timber
if you don't want to cheese then you're going to find an exploit and think to yo...
my thought process is basically similar to this ^, if the player thought of an entire process to invalidate a boss so be it, but if it is too easy then they should not work
distant gyro
putting arbitrary anticheese is not solving the issue, it's pushing it and maybe even cause inconvenience
especially recall and teleporters
tardy zodiac
my thought process is basically similar to this ^, if the player thought of an e...
2000 slime blocks in a straight line is pretty easy. like 5-10 minutes
drowsy plank
there are already mods to revert soaring insignia, such things will exist for cheese strats like this, so if you want to use them you're going to use them, and if you want to actually fight the boss you will just... actually fight the boss
small timber
in singleplayer if you have a boss chances are you are already fighting it; in multiplayer it is (was) already tied to boss zen anway which have a limited range
drowsy plank
shrimply as
lavish condor
I'm with xpcqe. I'm all for the sandbox game having sandbox solutions to a problem, (Hard boss) but it shouldn't be trivially easy
tardy zodiac
Either way you look at it magic conch cheese should be removed in some way (IMO)
drowsy plank
didnt we just remove magic mirror restrictions during boss fights
small timber
yes (and it is a recent change I disagree with, I still hold the opinion that sometimes calamity take changes to a too 'literal' extend), but imo if you want to cheese bosses at least you have to be creative
lavish condor
I feel like something along the lines of bosses don't feel like you're worth their time if you teleport a significant distance would work well. Would make the mirror also work as a panic button like "crap I have money I don't want to lose"
drowsy plank
i suppose most bosses already despawn when you do that lol
distant gyro
you don't have to be creative if you look it up
small timber
then it is just exploiting other people's creativity, there is still creativity committed by the people making the video
the player is just copy and pasting yes, but the people who found/invented the cheese still have to commit large amount of effort for it
they are not easy and obvious
tardy zodiac
you don't have to be creative if you look it up
I think cheesing a boss with only calamity and vanilla should take as long or longer than actually fighting the boss. even if you have the knowledge it should actually be an investment of time.
drowsy plank
we could just make bosses despawn if you go far away
problem solved
like a bunch already do this
if you conch during exos halfway across the world they just leave
simple
tardy zodiac
Agreed.^
lavish condor
I don't think it's about the time investment, more of the challenge/fun factor of it
Tedium's never good
drowsy plank
that way it isn't a fucking stupid ass lock for specific difficulty modes during only boss fights, but still addresses the issue
distant gyro
I think it's better that people cheese if it means they actually play instead of quit
crude geode
going for consistency one way or the other would be nice
right now it's just baffling that some bosses despawn on distance while other ones don't
small timber
then at the very least can just make all bosses despawn if the player is a distance too far away (for bosses like DoG that can stroll through half the map can be more lenient/teleport in some way instead)
can put something like a "despawn countdown timer" for 5 seconds so the player know they are way too far away from the boss
distant gyro
I think it's better that people cheese if it means they actually play instead of...
I'll put this in an example
frosty trellis
I love the mention of momentum capacitor there
When is that getting nerfed?
distant gyro
let's suppose that you really like the bosses after DoG but you don't like DoG for whatever reason irrelevant to this example
at that point you are reaching the point of intending to cheese
frosty trellis
Momentum Capacitor + Sirius can cheese normal and infernum dog and it's not even hard to pull it off either~
distant gyro
does it really matter which method you take to get there
if people are genuinely out of patience for the boss, they can go install cheat sheet and butcher it 5 times and move on with their day
their time investment is already there by having enough judgement to intend to cheese
on the other hand if you made it impassable then you left the player there on a sour note and possibly gate them to something not satisfactory
small timber
at that point there is still several options available
- lower difficulty (as I mentioned above, I am fine with anti-cheese being only in Death Mode, the definitive mode that currently already have 'No Nurse' as anti-cheese)
- skip the boss straight up for now and proceed to next (to certain degree this is what post-ML rebalance trying to achieve)
- find strategies video OR search for the "hard cheese" videos
regardless of the approach I dont think "allowing the player to invalidate" content is a good way to just keep the player playing; if something is too difficult for the player the approach should never be "cheat sheet butcher it" for example
crude geode
(to certain degree this is what post-ML rebalance trying to achieve)
what
it really isn't
distant gyro
you can't skip a boss if it's mandatory
crude geode
fighting yharon without post-dog gear, for example, is going to be monumentally more difficult than if you had the gear from dog
small timber
bosses and weapon have less stat difference, you can use post-Polter gear to fight yharon first, then come back to DoG with stronger gear
but it is not "unachievable" with say pre post-ML rebalance where the stat difference is like 4/5x DPS or something
distant gyro
if you push it earlier, are you genuinely going to do Pre-ML Yharon
small timber
(I already did it), but yes, it is possible
distant gyro
(to do ML)
small timber
how many player is gonna do it I dont know
but it is an option there for people who want to try, and still doable
and here it is more about post-ML anyway, currently if you skip 1 tier bosses are definitely still doable
they will be more difficult than on-tier but that is expected
cobalt pewter
anticheese
small timber
at that point there is still several options available
- lower difficulty (as I...
though I think main thing is lower difficulties ^
cobalt pewter
Momentum Capacitor is very likely to be reworked
as for magic conch
you can make the same argument like with recall kinda
distant gyro
(I already did it), but yes, it is possible
I don't think that's realistic for someone who wants to cheese ML
lilac ingot
i cant even believe theres so much debate over this. why should a boss not despawn? what good can come of kiting a boss halfway across the world?
cobalt pewter
while the core idea of the sugg is fine, the fact that the reasoning is the one thing cal has been pedaling back from is not the way to go
yes, there could be despawns based off range, but it shouldn't be implemented because you can cheese bosses without them
distant gyro
despawn range should exist for reasons not about cheesing yeah
small timber
I don't think that's realistic for someone who wants to cheese ML
which is why it is talked more about skipping 1 tier of bosses (eg: post-Polter current, skip DoG then fight yharon)
for example how hard will it be to fight Polterghast before Providence, I dont think it will be say impossible
distant gyro
ie. if you didn't intend to spawn the boss and want to gtfo to despawn it
cobalt pewter
and it's also why dclops is kinda funny
dclops is totally beatable preboss with patience
distant gyro
the amount of times that I use Terminus to cancel unintentional boss spawning in MP is concerning considering Terminus is not intended to be used this way
small timber
then at the very least can just make all bosses despawn if the player is a dista...
that I can agree yeah, as long as the player know the reason the boss is despawning
cobalt pewter
since you can run onto it over and over again
distant gyro
cobalt pewter
without consuming another Deer Tjing
small timber
otherwise there can be some assumption (since not everyone have full knowledge), like maybe out of biome despawn, based on distance etc
cobalt pewter
while the core idea of the sugg is fine, the fact that the reasoning is the one ...
@tardy zodiac this is what I think of your sugg btw
lilac ingot
@tardy zodiac I think that removing cheese is as good a reason as any, but if you want to get all the votes you should take the focus off that in your suggestion. I really like it and feel very similarly, maybe mention using it as a despawning method or breaking immersion as the boss runs a marathon around the map. a lot of people here dont care about whether or not its exploitable because everything is and always will be, apparently
crude geode
I like how in this conversation, bosses have been the only thing of note
nobody cares about "cheese" when it comes other parts of the game, likely because cal offers a multitude of alternate ways (see the word: cheese) to get around having to do stuff like fishing/mining, but if it's a boss it suddenly becomes direly important to remove it
really shows the current state of cal
lilac ingot
nobody here cares about boss cheese either. have you read what these guys are saying? "oh yeah just leave it all to be exploited because even if you fix it players will just break something else"
crude geode
one person is defending cheese
distant gyro
I like how in this conversation, bosses have been the only thing of note
the initiation is about bosses
lilac ingot
yeah the beta tester, that vote counts as 20 of ours
small timber
if Calamity want to lose ties to "bosses being the only thing important" or move towards "boss and non-boss should be equal" then they have a lot more work to do beforehand
for example they have to completely lose ties of "bosses being what determine progression of the game"
lock item progression behind exploration instead of bosses (or also bosses) for example
and for obvious reason that will be super hard to achieve due to how terraria is structured; bosses will always be of importance and perceived as more important than other aspect of the mod; the focus should be "making non-boss content as interesting as boss content" not "we decided that we should convince the player bosses are not important"
(this is why I think sometimes calamity take their approach abit too literally)
distant gyro
I vaguely mentioned the afk farms though
lilac ingot
if Calamity want to lose ties to "bosses being the only thing important" or move...
i like this explanation. terraria has always been a "boss driven" game, where progression and difficulty are primarily based on bosses. you gotta fix the bosses and set everything up before you can patch up whats in between
tardy zodiac
Ok i will fix it thank you! @lilac ingot
lilac ingot
Ok i will fix it thank you! <@264894333717577728>
yeah yw im glad this issue is finally getting attention!
frosty trellis
which is why it is talked more about skipping 1 tier of bosses (eg: post-Polter ...
A fair few people do this
Because they find polter far easier
tardy geyser
i dont see the point in this suggestion, like just show some self restraint and dont cheese bosses? if other people want to and make the game less fun then let them
crude geode
don't vote for it then
as it stands this sugg isn't breaking any current don'ts, at least that I'm aware of
unless something was recently added
distant gyro
it is backpedalling on a recent change
distant gyro
not despawning specifically but "it allows you to cheese because you can teleport"
alpine dawn
Seems like a non-problem to me imo
If you're cheesing it that's on you. If your teammates are cheesing it that's on them.
God damn autocorrect can eat moldy balls
crude geode
truly
lilac ingot
for me, even without intentionally trying to cheese fights, it kinda gets in the way. like my team will die and someone respawns just in time, so now the boss is making its way over to spawn while we should have just lost. or even worse, the boss gets lost somewhere on the map and doesn't despawn, often off the top. when really the boss should have just despawned by then
distant gyro
yeah
alpine dawn
Besides, sometimes its nesseccary to run further away, to regain lost hp and all. I think having a boss despawn because you're playing it safe would he really frustrating
alpine dawn
RDR?
distant gyro
Reactive Damage Reduction
alpine dawn
Ah
novel belfry
i despise rdr
alpine dawn
I know absolutely nothing about it. Mind telling me what it is?
distant gyro
RDR forces you out of something you are not supposed to do
much like a teleport block
crude geode
it was really weird
distant gyro
it basically kills your dps if you're killing a boss too fast
frosty trellis
Reactive Damage Reduction was a mechanic that reacted to the amount of damage you were doing and the boss would then gain DR so you didn't just melt it
And it was admittedly stupid because then trying to farm a boss later on could get you to just deal 0 damage
novel belfry
worse, it would often trigger when you were using adrenaline
frosty trellis
Yeah
small timber
imo I am actually fine with the (concept) of RDR, just I wish it was not as extreme
alpine dawn
Ah, I get it. Yeah, it's kind of redundant imo. I think anti cheese in singleplayer games is a bit unnecessary, but that's just me
frosty trellis
The concept is fine
The execution was......
distant gyro
RDR really isn't extreme imo
alpine dawn
Like sometimes I'd be grinding a boss with a weapon that would melt it and it just stopped so I'd have to wait for a while
small timber
like, I think it is fine if it is like "boss take 15% less damage if you are killing it too fast" instead of "THIS BOSS CANT DIE BECAUSE YOU TOO POWERFUL" etc etc
frosty trellis
LITERALLY
distant gyro
if you look up before 1.5 people basically unanimously agreed that it did nothing
frosty trellis
Trying to just farm mechs for souls and then just can't damage them or wanting to use adren with a weapon and the boss suddenly takes nothing
crude geode
it was also really funny because (iirc) a punishment for the opposite approach (being really slow with fights) was implemented, where the boss would move forward in phases if you weren't dealing enough damage
novel belfry
if you look up before 1.5 people basically unanimously agreed that it did nothin...
wait, it actually existed pre-1.5?
distant gyro
it accelerated after 1.5 specifically because it's stricter on Malice Mode, the highest difficulty
novel belfry
it accelerated after 1.5 specifically because it's stricter on Malice Mode, the ...
was*
crude geode
it was also really funny because (iirc) a punishment for the opposite approach (...
so if you weren't doing the intended amount of damage you got punished in some way
alpine dawn
Besides, I think the idea of "not being allowed to do something you're not supposed to" especially in a singleplayer game (but in most games) is silly, depending on the circumstances.
frosty trellis
Malice added Timed Damage Reduction which was honestly worse
small timber
if you look up before 1.5 people basically unanimously agreed that it did nothin...
imo it is what I think rdr should be tbh
it should not be to the point of noticeable, basically all it does is just extend the fight slightly longer so the final phase etc dont get equally melted
distant gyro
which is pretty familiar to the suggestion to gate all anticheese at the highest diff, isn't it
novel belfry
Malice added Timed Damage Reduction which was honestly worse
i think i'm referring to that one
frosty trellis
TDR was terrible
novel belfry
thank god it died with malice
frosty trellis
Longer the fight > more DR
distant gyro
imo it is what I think rdr should be tbh
it should not be to the point of notic...
if a mechanic is so useless people didn't know then it's a waste of code
crude geode
so if you weren't doing the intended amount of damage you got punished in some w...
looking back it was funny when rdr and tdr happened at the same time
distant gyro
that's my take
frosty trellis
if a mechanic is so useless people didn't know then it's a waste of code
I don't think it should be noticeable to the point where you can tell that you are dealing far less damage than you should
alpine dawn
Honestly, if someone melts a boss in a few seconds they probably aren't gonna play fair regardless. That's rarely possible with notable bosses, not including other mods.
small timber
isnt rdr and tdr always the samething? I always though rdr is based on time therefore making it tdr
frosty trellis
Like, making bosses less meltable is one thing
But if it just kills the damage you deal with some probably overtuned on tier weapon or using adren or farming it later on then it's just.... Stupid
tardy geyser
isnt rdr and tdr always the samething? I always though rdr is based on time ther...
yes
crude geode
fun
tardy geyser
there was no mechanic that increases dr if youre killing a boss too slow
frosty trellis
isnt rdr and tdr always the samething? I always though rdr is based on time ther...
I swore RDR was reacting based on the damage you dealt
TDR was just the longer the fight the less damage you dealt
Ah
crude geode
there was no mechanic that increases dr if youre killing a boss too slow
it might have just been brought up as an idea
alpine dawn
there was no mechanic that increases dr if youre killing a boss too slow
That just sounds counter intuitive
crude geode
where someone got annoyed with people stalling during easy phases like the brothers in scal
frosty trellis
That's old malice for ya
tardy geyser
probably mixing it up with the timed aggression
alpine dawn
"You're taking too long to kill a boss? Well now you're gonna take even longer ecks dee"
distant gyro
it's phase shifting if you kill a boss too slow
small timber
it was not increased Dr but rather boss skip a phase before yeah
crude geode
yeah that's right
frosty trellis
RDR regardless was overtuned
distant gyro
so that you don't stall on easy phases to burst hard ones
crude geode
it was also really funny because (iirc) a punishment for the opposite approach (...
even what I said earlier and my brain just. forgot
distant gyro
that one is referred as timed aggression
frosty trellis
And just made farming bosses like, not really a viable thing (And you kinda need to defeat some bosses more than once depending)
tardy geyser
ye other than making rippers worse rdr was fine
small timber
isnt at some point rdr is removable after you beat a boss one time or something
or is there some patch where that dont happen and bosses always have tdr
tardy geyser
i think it was after the first kill?
crude geode
the mechanic is pretty dead and gone anyways, idk why yall want it back
small timber
fabsol himself said "no" to rdr when at one point I suggested to bring it back yeah
crude geode
funny
frosty trellis
RDR should not return
alpine dawn
Adrenaline is fine imo
distant gyro
when introduced it disabled immediately after kill unless you flip a config
small timber
(adrenaline gutting when, starting at 200% as basic character and only progress to 245% end game is just overkill)
distant gyro
later it was based on tiers to make challenge drops harder
frosty trellis
Adrenaline is fine imo
Oh yeah, nohit a boss for 30 seconds and annihlate half of their health
"Balanced"
crude geode
Just nerf adrenaline
I see this message every time someone in this channel brings up adrenaline
alpine dawn
I can't dodge very well 
crude geode
most people can't
alpine dawn
I wish Nightime Providence dropped something cooler than dye
small timber
I remember I tried it before with something like "dont attack at all and stall the first 30 seconds to see how much you can burst within 5 seconds adrenaline", and the result was most pre-HM bosses other than skeletron can die in 5 second with min-maxed weapon and gear
(and this is the current version of adrenaline, not the 500% damage or whatever version before)
frosty trellis
I am not a nohitter but with the exception of SCal I get adren all the time (I just don't use it as I play without rippers as they are overpowered)
cobalt pewter
it accelerated after 1.5 specifically because it's stricter on Malice Mode, the ...
another reason why I'll keep hating malice till the end of me
crude geode
I am not a nohitter but with the exception of SCal I get adren all the time (I j...
you're still an exception to the norm
considering you are constantly testing
alpine dawn
Wasnt Malice mainly stat bloats? Correct me if I'm wrong
crude geode
yes
frosty trellis
I remember I tried it before with something like "dont attack at all and stall t...
And doesn't it deal like 60-80% to everything in hardmode?
alpine dawn
lmao wait fr? It was?
small timber
And doesn't it deal like 60-80% to everything in hardmode?
most 50%, though depend on weapon maybe 60-80 yeah
frosty trellis
Wasnt Malice mainly stat bloats? Correct me if I'm wrong
Malice has a bunch of AI changes
crude geode
had
frosty trellis
most 50%, though depend on weapon maybe 60-80 yeah
My point still stands then
cobalt pewter
Wasnt Malice mainly stat bloats? Correct me if I'm wrong
stat bloats (except unlike vanilla everything is also much faster)
crude geode
also weren't the ai changes extremely minor
cobalt pewter
so fuck you and your existence kinda deal
small timber
but I think pre-HM reference is more reasonable since at that point you dont really have option to gear for offensive, while to achieve 60-80 in HM you probably have to go full glass
crude geode
like projectile speed or smthn
frosty trellis
Mythril armor be like: Oh really?
small timber
(mythril armor dont exist back then), but ya adrenaline is just goated
alpine dawn
I remember Fabsol going on a tyrade about how much Master Mode sucked and how stat bloats are terrible excuses for difficulty
small timber
malice is mainly speed bloat + AI change, some of the AI change are actually pretty interesting, but combined with proj speed and boss MS bloat it become abit unbearable
alpine dawn
Also how they lied about it being a rematch mode lmao
frosty trellis
malice is mainly speed bloat + AI change, some of the AI change are actually pre...
(Calclones Brothers you literally either sandstorm in a balloon with no wings equipped with min-maxed ms or fallgoded as the only reasonable way dodge them)
crude geode
Also how they lied about it being a rematch mode lmao
that was more a problem of what they wanted to do with it
iirc
alpine dawn
I didn't appreciate them locking items behind it either
cobalt pewter
I think the original intentions at first is to make RIV / Legendaries (now gone) accessible towards challenges instead of low droprate
which somehow mutated into Malice.
and apparently it was a rematch mode at one point?
small timber
(now that it is gone), I think the 'rematch' idea was more of just excuse for "we know this shit is probably too hard to most player but to make people not complain so we just tell you that if you can't kill it just kill it later with overtiered gear"
(and people complained anyway)
frosty trellis
Pretty much
distant gyro
I remember Fabsol going on a tyrade about how much Master Mode sucked and how st...
well, you see
cobalt pewter
I see
alpine dawn
I see
frosty trellis
No tester had beaten malice exos on release and then someone did a t.melee nohit very soon after but yeah
alpine dawn
:clueless
small timber
I dont think testers used a world arena but yeah
frosty trellis
Fair
alpine dawn
Also
Isn't just raising a stat regardless of which one a stat bloat
frosty trellis
If it's only that yes
distant gyro
Malice was designed around world arenas
alpine dawn
I dont think testers used a world arena but yeah
You shouldn't need an entire world arena to fight something though
distant gyro
it was designed around mobility and spatial minmaxing, that's why bosses are so unreasonably fast
small timber
sry what I mean is was testing (old malice) exo mechs done in like, a literal world with nothing in it but platform to fall?
distant gyro
it was designed around mobility and spatial minmaxing, that's why bosses are so ...
idk I did not test Malice because the idea of this alone is enough to not make me touch it
alpine dawn
I think needing to carve out most of your world for a fight isn't really a good idea 
crude geode
I'm afraid to go back to the discussion about cheese
crude geode
trueeee
small timber
🧀 add it as a food item
distant gyro
go and make suggestions about why Aerial Bane should bane Aerial or something
small timber
make it the reward for the player if they defeat a boss without losing HP, all it does it just a food that give Exq Stuffed for 6 minutes
alpine dawn
I have a really stupid April Fools Yharim idea
No it isn't Lorde
alpine dawn
~~make it the reward for the player if they defeat a boss without losing HP, all...
Exquisitely Stuffed? More like Extremely Cucked lmao
small timber
ok I mean as additional reward, but yeah it is derailing
small timber
handgun
crude geode
handgun gets trolled on but nobody talks about the 3 differently labeled pistols pre-boss
distant gyro
to be fair, Flintlock Pistol isn't real
small timber
just make handgun have a frost-themed upgrade so it is no longer an instant phoenix blaster component
surely that will solve handgun being useless
tardy geyser
shadow key making most dungeon chest items useless 
make magic missile and blue moon be sidegrades me thinks
small timber
some effort are made, like I think magic missle and flamelash are different now
blazing kettle
if you wait, the cool blue sword will just make itself better by itself
crude geode
some effort are made, like I think magic missle and flamelash are different now
are they
alpine dawn
to be fair, Flintlock Pistol isn't real
I wish Lances/Spears and Flails got reworked
Ah wait wrong reply
My bad
small timber
magic missile fire 2 per shot, flamelash is a bigger damage single projectile iirc
ruby plover
yeah, heard stip talking about that
dunno if its in the game yet, dont have it open to check
small timber
I think it is already in the game since I tried magic missile, not sure what is different about flamelash
crude geode
wait why the fuck does the vanilla wiki say this
tardy geyser
oh looks like missiles damage was buffed a lot in 1.4.4, from 27 to 35
crude geode
The Magic Missile can prove very useful when combined with the Binoculars, increasing the range in which the missile can be guided.
????
If the player uses a Magic Missile, Flamelash or Rainbow Rod and then quickly switches to the binoculars while still holding down ⚒ Use / Attack, the player will still be able to control the projectile but will also be able to move the camera around, greatly increasing the range of the projectile.
jeez what obscure tech
small timber
ok magic missile is shot 2 per shot, flamelash is it comes back/can track 2 target
crude geode
what an insanely small difference
even in principle does that really make a difference
ruby plover
flamelash doesnt look that different
small timber
flamelash additionally apply DOT, for details you have to ask stip
ruby plover
but magic missile is definitely better
distant gyro
what an insanely small difference
that was my impression
I really vouched for one of them to have lost homing
small timber
(though I have to spam left click for them to be machine gun, if I hold it become controllable mode, not sure if there is anything about it since stip said something about magic missile no longer being carpal tunnel)
crude geode
considering vanilla flamelash can pierce not sure if they changed it
tardy smelt
Supposedly each had its niche
small timber
flamelash should be stronger still just because it hit as many times + higher base damage + DOT
crude geode
+ratio
small timber
oh right I think stip's previous plan of rework was to make flamelash much more about debuff
but since almost all enemies (not just bosses) you encounter after shadowchest have fire resistant maybe the plan changed
distant gyro
either
A. Massive AoE
B. Pure cursor control with no homing
C. Debuff synergies
crude geode
I really vouched for one of them to have lost homing
shame you couldn't convince them (at least for now)
tardy smelt
flamelash *should* be stronger still just because it hit as many times + higher ...
I heard stip wanted to make magic missile better on some things and flamelash better on others
crude geode
I wish my expectations weren't sky high for everything cal did
distant gyro
well, I didn't hate it either
you're naturally going to shoot as high as you can go
tardy smelt
I think Stip wanted to rebalance the majority of mage...and maybe also do things in regards to how the class as a whole functions
stable musk
By lore something like DoG or providence to chase you makes more sense
Sentinels too
hollow shell
@tardy zodiac "All vanilla bosses despawn from long range (except WOF)"
You forgot Queen Bee, Deerclops, Destroyer, Empress of Light, and Moon Lord.
Technically Betsy too, and possibly also Duke Fishron.
cobalt pewter
most of these either move very fast, very far, or teleport huh
aside from Deerclops
incredible.
lilac ingot
yeah fr, the calamity ones just slowly migrate and give you a chance to have a drink, think about life choices, maybe fight a couple more bosses, visit the maldives, and then finally the boss shows up. at least in vanilla they keep that in mind
naive gale
Queen Bee doesn't move very fast but yeah
lilac ingot
same for destroyer, and it sucks. breaks immersion, introduces unnecessary exploits, like what good comes of a lingering boss doing laps around the map
cobalt pewter
at least Queen Bee menacingly chasing another player in mp is funny
lilac ingot
fair enough? i dont think its that funny when astrum deus smashes a tunnel through my house and kills all my npcs when i just wanted out
eternal escarp
aside from Deerclops
and tbf dclops whole thing is being close so yea
eternal escarp
shut UP
distant gyro
blast summoning ritual:
cobalt pewter
I think no despawn on dclops is actually an issue because there's no way to "reset" the fight without butcher
distant gyro
deerclops
cobalt pewter
fight him from the beginning all over again kinda deal
distant gyro
sne
cobalt pewter
as it is you can just bash yourself to him everytime you respawn and there will be no risk in actually dying
it's just not that
fun
eternal escarp
ah
yeah, i suppose i cant deny that
despawning only after like, a full ingame day, while game accurate
isnt exactly great
cobalt pewter
yea.
drowsy plank
yall talking about dungeon drops what if you just locked pheonix blaster behind slime god like the night weapons and gave it a fire debuff. would make sense considering it upgrades into cursed capper anyway lmao
once deerclops becomes a real boss you could make handgun good against single targets (deerclops) and archerfish would be good against multitargets (WoF and SG) and that way things would still have a niche
drowsy plank
yeah
golden tulip
ah
drowsy plank
he's supposed to be fought post Skele but uh
you really don't need skele weapons to kill him
golden tulip
i fight him post skele but hes neglegable so
drowsy plank
exactly, once he becomes a real threat it could give dungeon pistol a viable niche
small timber
currently deerclops' attack does about 20 damage if you have on tier gear
drowsy plank
'neglegable' is small, 'neglectable' is easily ignored
tardy smelt
exactly, once he becomes a real threat it could give dungeon pistol a viable nic...
Isn't he balanced to be post-second evil....?
Heard something 'bout that
sage drum
Somehow this will end up summoning blast
swift wharf
Isn't he balanced to be post-second evil....?
second evil?
small timber
post skele is a nohit thing yeah, though deerclops is just incredibly weak regardless
(since to rev buffs)
swift wharf
cuz deer thing is made with like
post eoc stuff
not even eow/boc
and he has the same spawn conditions as EoC
drowsy plank
Isn't he balanced to be post-second evil....?
im just going off of this but also ur right he's pre-Skele lmfao;
https://calamitymod.wiki.gg/wiki/Bosses#Boss_Progression
i guess i forgot or it changed
cause i remembered him being post-Skele not a while back
drowsy plank
i c
crude geode
prolly cuz he’s a cooler boss than slime god
tardy smelt
It doesn't have much impact on base cal considering that Deerclops barely exists in it, but it's relevant for Infernum which also balances Deerclops around being pre-Skelly
crude geode
Deerclops being post second evil boss feels kinda. weird
can’t really place why though
tardy smelt
I dunno
crude geode
Prolly just the movement of a vanilla boss in progression
tardy smelt
Pre-Hardmode is super open-ended
crude geode
In terms of intended spot
crude geode
He’s cooler than slime god
cobalt pewter
(also at this point we're just gonna spawn blast again)
crude geode
(We’re not trashing deerclops itself it’s fine)
cobalt pewter
true
crude geode
Byeah make slime god less cringe pls and thank you
The boss is so just. there for the sake of a boss and more progression prehm
It doesn’t feel very interesting design wise since it’s just. slime but purple and red (woahhhhh this is something we have never seen before) and it’s not integrated into the world very well
distant gyro
Calamity tiershifts him back for whatever reason <a:PonyShrug:528213047190224926...
We specifically designed Deerclops to be an alternative at the same tier of Skeletron and Queen Bee. There is no intended or expected order there.
I lost the source but that's vanilla
so basically vanilla is anarchy
QB, Skeletron, and Deerclops are all interchangeable
drowsy plank
tbf what bee and skele unlock are much more significant than deer too so it's all a bit weird
crude geode
Bee’s unlocks are equivalent if you’re not playing summoner tbfh
distant gyro
Calamity forces the decision because it's clear that Skeletron makes the most significant difference out of all the bosses
cobalt pewter
It doesn’t feel very interesting design wise since it’s just. slime but purple a...
they're biome mimics but now slimes for whatever reason
distant gyro
honestly I'd put Deerclops behind QB, even
crude geode
Skeletron just needs less importance
distant gyro
DClops < QB < Skeletron in terms of practical power
you get no Beenades or Bee armor out of Deerclops
crude geode
Skeletron just needs less importance
Honestly put shadow key behind deerclops, Skeletron, and queen bee so you can decide which one you wanna do first.
eternal escarp
(also at this point we're just gonna spawn blast again)
hi
crude geode
That or just deerclops since he needs more stuff
eternal escarp
DClops < QB < Skeletron in terms of practical power
and yeah i agree to this
DClops was never post skeletron either afaik
im pretty sure even in vanilla its mostly seen as post evils
crude geode
`We specifically designed Deerclops to be an alternative at the same tier of Ske...
Was mentioned as much here (can’t find the source)
eternal escarp
then yea
cobalt pewter
I love Terraria's extremely vague phm tiering!!!
short walrus
pretty much everything in vanilla is available as soon as you exist
crude geode
I love Terraria's extremely vague phm tiering!!!
Cal’s post ml tiering walks in
crude geode
pretty much everything in vanilla is available as soon as you exist
In prehm yeah, but hardmode it switches to the complete opposite
swift wharf
this is confusing and it hurts my brain
i do not know which stage deerclops belongs to until I open this box
lucid flare
Cal’s post ml tiering walks in
well we kinda have an official tiering with boss rush
(for calamity)
distant gyro
it's true
eternal escarp
interchangable bosses in boss rush dont follow that order specifically but
close enough yes
lucid flare
yea like scal end exos
swift wharf
boss rush 😭
eternal escarp
mhm
drowsy plank
why isn't marnite stuff just like
like 1.4 bone/reaver pick
where it's just below deathbringer/nightmare so that way it's as efficient as possible
hollow shell
wdym
eternal escarp
i think they mean pickaxe power just low enough to not be deathbringer level but as high as it can
(which is like, 50% i think?
hollow shell
I don't think that actually has any practical effect whatsoever
swift wharf
yea
hollow shell
From how I understand it,
Pickaxe power works in distinct tiers/thresholds, any value within the same tier functions the same, takes same amount of hits to break any given block
To actually mine at different speeds within those tiers, that involves a difference in usetime/toolspeed
swift wharf
Huh
swift wharf
does it not decrease the number of hits needed ?
distant gyro
you're both breaking a block with 100% hitpoint in 2 hits
swift wharf
ohh
hollow shell
does it not decrease the number of hits needed ?
afaik, no
That requires crossing a threshold
distant gyro
the most powerful block has a hitpoint of 1000%