Yes they did.
#Tech Lab forum - General Discussions!
cerulean helm
sacred seal
My concerns are tied to right to repair. Who owns what is on your PC?
jade scaffold
WHAT?
man you on crack
Steam owns the Steam client
read the TOS
the products you buy on steam belong to you
but the client itself does not
as such valve can stab the client when ever they please
whether for security issues or even just cost of supporting the OS
sacred seal
So a company should be able to brick your car if you do not update your infotainment center?
sacred seal
Yes it is
jade scaffold
a company should be able to brick your car if its unsafe
thats fair enough i guess
which W7 is
sacred seal
Who decides what is unsafe?
deft star
@jade scaffold do u own a GTX 4000 series GPU? if not imagine NVidia would just remotly brick it because they stopped support
jade scaffold
thats also not the same
they arent bricking steam for the lolz
they are bricking it because they literally cannot support it on that OS and it WILL break
deft star
its the same anti consumer attitude for old hardware
sacred seal
It will eventually break
jade scaffold
if 3090s were at risk of exploding and burning my house down randomly then NVidia can disable it how ever they want
sacred seal
Everything will eventually break
So you spent 1000+$s, if nvidia said we think this product is unsafe, you can no longer use it, you would be fine with that?
deft star
if 3090s were at risk of exploding and burning my house down randomly then NVidi...
and thatd were u are wrong
jade scaffold
Who decides what is unsafe?
Regulators like how the entire computing industry judges W7 as Unsafe and unsupported
Steam dont want to have to support a Broken product for a player base that almost does not exsist
sacred seal
Again, no one is asking them to support it
jade scaffold
by asking them to keep it working you are asking for it to be supported
sacred seal
The request is to not actively break it
deft star
its not about supporting it
cerulean helm
Then go use GOG, they actually download the game files to the PC without having to relaunch the GOG client. OH WAIT, they killed Win 7 support before Steam did.
sacred seal
I gaurentee you that if I find a old version of gog I can install it and run it just fine. I may not be able to log into it, but that is not what steam is doing
cinder lagoon
the products you buy on steam belong to you
Actually, no.
You own a license to play these games. Steam could take that right away from you at any instant for no reason.
cerulean helm
I gaurentee you that if I find a old version of gog I can install it and run it ...
You would not be able to download any games.
sacred seal
Looked it up, gog still seems to run fine on windows 7
Its not supported, but because none of the APIs have changed it seems like it still works
cinder lagoon
That said, you do not own any software installed on your Computer. You have no right to use said software if that author decides you must not.
cerulean helm
GOG Galaxy 2.0 is not supported for Win 7. Shadow.
cinder lagoon
Software is (without any contracts) almost always provided as-is. If your contract states otherwise, good for you. But in that case you probably paid for the contract.
sacred seal
I never said galaxy 2.0 is supported. 1.2 is
They never nade a 2.0 client for 7
As far as I can tell
GOG does not support windows 7, but because nothing notworthy has changed it still works on it
Steam is actively disabling support for windows 7
That is the difference
deft star
access not support
cerulean helm
I never said galaxy 2.0 is supported. 1.2 is
1.2 is from 2020.... Thats 3 years old. Its unsupported and not even available from GOG to download.
sacred seal
Actually you can download any version of the GOG client
You just have to know the URL
Again, no one is asking for steam to support windows 7. You will be stuck on an old version, possibly in offline mode
But if it aint broken, then they should not kill it
Honestly, how different is the steam client now vs 10 years ago
jade scaffold
A steam account needs an internet connection to log in.
So no new install will work, no games can be installed, no games can be updated, online ones will not function without an authentication from a valve server. As such the vast majority of the platform will be bricked regardless. the only games that will work reliably are single player ones without cloud saves
Valve doe not want to pay customer service workers to be dealing with W7 users and their issues, as such the cheaper alternative is to just kill the entire client anyway, and all of a sudden thoes customer service workers have to spend less time on dealing with people using unsupported software.
VMs are king if you are fucking with ancient hardware you are probably willing to fuck with a VM to make your ancient hardware work anyway while that is more work and sucks and all, they are a minority valve have judged as being cheaper to force to another platform or flat out get rid off than keep either supporting or dealing with the shit of.
So no its obviously not cheaper for them to leave the platform just unsupported and has been deemed to be cheaper to just kill it entirely. again as well Security is a nice bonus
cerulean helm
GOG does not support 1.2 anymore.
For fucks sake, you can find Windows Vista installs online. Does that mean its a good idea to use it? No.
sacred seal
Yes, but you can run windows vista if you want to
sacred seal
Vista does not require internet, you can just put your product key in and be fine
jade scaffold
which is all well and good microsoft really dont care and hold no responsibility for your fuckups if you break somthing with a cracked version
sacred seal
Windows 10 is what, 8 years old now? When windows 12 comes out, should microsoft have the right to brick any windows 10 machine?
jade scaffold
they have the right to force an update but they cant destroy data
microsoft go the way of if you use Older OSs you get no customer support and any data loss is fault of your own rout to things
then they go out of their way to make the old ones hard to get officially as possible
eventually W10 will not atall work with anything modern
effectivly bricking it
sacred seal
Yes. If you want to run XP (which many industrial PCs still use due to driver issues), you can. Microsoft sending out an update that makes the install non functional would be unethical
jade scaffold
yea it would because windows is NEEDED for alot of industry
steam is needed for literally nothing
quite literally nothing
sacred seal
So because steam is not needed for anything they have no ethical conciderations?
jade scaffold
nothing important so to say
well theres not much ethics in getting rid of somthing not used and not needed really
jade scaffold
i do yes
and they arent destroying it
you can still access all your shit
just fine
sacred seal
Not my understanding
If that is the case then we have been aruing over nothing
My understanding is that they are shipping an update that will prevent steam from functioning
sacred seal
Yea, effectively destroying it
jade scaffold
steam can still be accessed
there for not destroying
more like cutting off a tumor which could be considered destroying
they more so locked a door
so now you have to use a different enterence
you can still get into the shop just not through that one super creaky beaten up door
sacred seal
Yea, but its a door on your property. Why do you have to jump through hoops to get access
sacred seal
Its on your PC
jade scaffold
you dont own steam
sacred seal
No, but I own the data that is on my PC
jade scaffold
valve owns steam
oh yea and they arent uninstalling it
they are just telling all W7 Steam installs to just not function
sacred seal
That is what they are basically doing from my understanding
jade scaffold
which is completely in their rights
sacred seal
For all pratical purposes
Its within microsofts rights to use windows 10 to spy on you
sacred seal
I know
jade scaffold
but legally they have to give you the option to restrict identifying information
jade scaffold
valve legally dont have to make their software function
all they legally have to do is handle your data responsibly
sacred seal
No they don't. Just like that repair shop probably leagally destroyed that immaging device
What we are debating here is a question of ethics, not one of legallity
jade scaffold
software that may i remind you you dont own you just have a licence to install and utilise for its intended purpose
thats the agreement YOU signed
dont like it
make your own Platform
sacred seal
I never said steam did not have the legal right to do it. I said it was unethical
jade scaffold
i dont think it is unethical
sacred seal
Ok, so windows nuking windows 10 when windows 12 comes out is ethical
jade scaffold
theres nothing unethical about protecting your users and products from potential security hazards by sacrificing the usability for an incomprehensibly small number of people
sacred seal
Or actually real world. When microsoft was updating windows 7 PCs to 10 without customers permission when it just launched was ehtical
jade scaffold
Ok, so windows nuking windows 10 when windows 12 comes out is ethical
if its not an OS actually needed to do anything and has huge security flaws microsoft cant fix sure yea why not as long as they save all my data in the transfer over
i did say this if a product is NEEDED for actual real world things it should have versions of it kept around as legacy Steam is not one of thoes products its a webapp for one so 99% of it just doesnt work without internet anyway. aditional to that if that old legacy version has a security flaw that could lead to leaked data they kinda have to fix it which costs money
sacred seal
For do not have to fix security flaws in software you do not support
jade scaffold
microsoft even updated the older windows installs to protect from a intel processor vulnerability i bet that cost them several million to have to go back and work with old software that no ones touched
sacred seal
So no, steam has no monetary argument for disabling support
jade scaffold
yes they do
if they just leave it unsupported they are gonna get more support requests than if they brick it and leave a little "Steam No longer supports Windows 7/8 due to bla bla bla" message
support questions take time to answer as such they take money to awnser
telling steam clients to log out then blocking the authentication service is much much much cheaper
sacred seal
That is not what they are doing though
jade scaffold
and doesnt prevent actual important customer service requests being answered
sacred seal
They are telling steam clients to disable themselves
They are not disabling the authentication service
I gaurentee that the authentication service is going to be 100% unchanged
Thats the nature of APIs
jade scaffold
yea the Authentication service will be fine but it wont answer requests for W7 clients
because there will probably still be a way to try send a login request
and the best way to prevent that from working is to just tell the authenticator dont listen to thoes
sacred seal
A- autheticator most likely has no clue what device is sending the information
sacred seal
If you can log in via browser, it can be spoofed
The client has to be modified in some way to prevent users from logging in
jade scaffold
every time a login attempt is made to steam or really any service quite alot more info than just a User name and password are sent Machine IP OS machine name and on occasion depending on application even system specs and hardware IDs
yea and it will be
im not saying it wont be
because it will
sacred seal
So steam is going out of there way to prevent users from accessing the platform
And a user running windows 7 does not pose a security threat to steam.
jade scaffold
on unsafe systems yess
they pose a customer service ticket that could have otherwise been avoided
sacred seal
With your own words, this represents a tiny fraction of there user base, most of which are probably fairly tech savy if they are still running windows 7
jade scaffold
they arent preventing people from accessing the platform
they are preventing specific outdated systems from doing so
you can still log in on your phone or what ever else thats supported
sacred seal
How many support tickets are they going to have to field
jade scaffold
probably a few
when they realise that nothing they do can fix their lack of ability to install or update games
sacred seal
So the ethical standard for having companies destroy stuff on your PC is that they have to be at risk of a few CS tickets
jade scaffold
steam still works they can still use it just not on that one device so it just moved in effect
sacred seal
Only if they go through the hassle of upgrading there OS
jade scaffold
or like i said if we wanna be all metaphoric sealed off an old door
sacred seal
That again is on your property
jade scaffold
Only if they go through the hassle of upgrading there OS
you mean the 5 min job of upgrading an OS
yea its on your property
but its not your property thats on your property
sacred seal
Uhh, you have any idea how many hours I have had to spend fixing PCs whos update went funky
Its not a 5 minute process
jade scaffold
i've had that alot my self my simple sollution
Back up data wipe drive try again
takes like 10 min or like 40 if its a hardrive
sacred seal
So you have to have a spare hard drive if you want to update
jade scaffold
id you are on win 7 as i said and as you agree with your probs tech savy so i would assume so yes
or an external drive of some kind
sacred seal
So steam is potentially forcing people to buy hard drives to use the client. Not so painless of a upgradee
sacred seal
Which can royally eff you over if you don't
jade scaffold
and most people kinda have some kinda external drive just kinda lying arround
sacred seal
I don't know who you think most people are
I service a lot of people, number of people I know who have spare drives are 0
jade scaffold
i know loads of even none tech savy people who have external drives which they used to store games and movies and stuff
sacred seal
Or at least one large enough to store there stuff
jade scaffold
thing is saving important information doesnt take up the same space as what your actual computer has on it
sacred seal
So now you have to go through and label everything that is and is not important
jade scaffold
everything i would want to keep probs totals maybe 600gb the rest is just the game installs them selfs which can be reinstalled
????
jade scaffold
no you drag and drop onto a hardrive just grab save files media files drag them all over
jade scaffold
About 40$s
1tb which a tech savy person would likely have lying arround
sacred seal
And if they are not tech savy?
jade scaffold
which as we have agreed on win 7 users are probs rather tech savy
then why the hell were you using windows 7
sacred seal
Again, users in weird situations
jade scaffold
if you didn't need windows 7 to do some jank shit
you shouldn't have been using it
sacred seal
Not as uncommon as you might think
jade scaffold
ima level with you the only people i know that use W7 are crazed W7 enthusiasts who just spout about supposed superior performance and the elderly
ive seen Windows XP used on some industrial things
but never Windows 7
sacred seal
I know a few people who run windows 7 because it runs the hardware they need and is more up to date then 7, but yes I agree small portion of the population.
jade scaffold
and i cant think of any reason a normal person has to keep using windows 7 unless they have some crazy jank shit set up to run on it
which is pretty much only gonna be industrial things and old car sims and stuff like that
most all music equipiment can be made to work through W10 fine because the majority of music stuff is relativly standardised
the music community is also like the linux community where if you have an issue Craig who lives in the middle of bumbfuck no where has also had the issue and knows how to fix it
sacred seal
We agree that this affects a small- insignificant portion of the population.
My complaint has nothing to do with the scale or the praticality of what they are doing. My complaint is simple. I have a PC and it works. Is it ethical for some company to come in and actively cause something to not work.
jade scaffold
what you have is a Steam client thats about to loose 99% of its features anyway so why do you care its not going to be useable even if they left it alone
sacred seal
That is not the question
Is it ethical for some company to come in and actively cause something to not work.
jade scaffold
depends what it is
sacred seal
I apply the same standard regaurdless of who is doing it or why.
sacred seal
Ok, how do we define a legal barrier between companies that should be allowed to break your shit, and companies that should not
If you cannot define a legal standard, then no one should be able to do it
Because otherwise people who should not be able to do it will be able to
And I do not want to live in a world where companies can come in and break stuff because they decide so
Again actively break stuff
Something dies because the company cannot/ will not maintain it is a different question
jade scaffold
where the safety and wellbeing of a person comes into concern then ethics do matter
but when its a games company killing what they consider to be an expense THAT THEY OWN they can
If YOU own an item then its unethical for them to take that away from you
but someone lets you use their shit for free, then says well now we are going to use it else where there's nothing ethical you can really even argue you never owned it you agreed to the fact you never owned it you knew this was gonna happen years in advance you had time to prepare and you didn't that's entirely on the consumer
sacred seal
Steam is not letting me do shit for free. You know how much money I have tied up in there platform?
sacred seal
Yes, and the games I paid them to access are not
sacred seal
They are preventing me from accessing the games I paid for
sacred seal
I cant log into the steam client. I am bieng prevented access. The fact that you can jump though some hoops to fix that does not change that fact
jade scaffold
they are saying to you please use this in another place
not here because here is old and barely functional
sacred seal
A different place that has some expence assosiated with using it
jade scaffold
they arent preventing you from accessing any of the shit you own
or rather have a licence to
sacred seal
Windows 10 upgrade is no longer free (at least not technically)
They are actively disabling my access to stuff
jade scaffold
again thats the consumers fault for not listening to Microsoft
they were told it was going to be killed
sacred seal
They are going to the door and putting a lock on it
Who is killing steam support. Microsoft or valve?
jade scaffold
and the consumer in their own infinate wisdom decided nah it'll never happen its fine
microsoft killed W7
which means EVERYONE abandoned it
sacred seal
No, they no longer support windows 7
jade scaffold
which means Valve can no longer make stuff for it
sacred seal
You can run windows 7 to your hearts content
jade scaffold
which means steam wont work on it
even if they allowed it to
it literally wouldn't work for a new user or new session anyway
as such the market for W7 will infinatly dwindle and die regardless
sacred seal
Nothing is stopping valve from develping on windows 7. They have been doing it for 3 years now
jade scaffold
yes there is
jade scaffold
the lack of support for the newer chrome extensions literally prevents them
sacred seal
2024*
sacred seal
According to wikipedia it did
jade scaffold
mainly to help companies with the transition over
sacred seal
jade scaffold
the official support ended but you could buy a licence to get a extended supported version of it
sacred seal
That ended this year
jade scaffold
as well it also still got some updates to fix GAPING security flaws
jade scaffold
That ended this year
yes it did
and now valve are giving W7 users a year to get their shit together
sacred seal
I'm just making sure it is clear that this decision solely lies on valve. There is nothing techical preventing them from not supporting windows 7 vs killing the client
jade scaffold
its not like they are W7 steam out of nowhere its not like they are rocking up oneday and just saying cease to be steam for W7
jade scaffold
I'm just making sure it is clear that this decision solely lies on valve. There ...
yes there is
the software steam runs on literally does not exsist for W7
thats googles fault
jade scaffold
the latest versions of the imbeded version of Chrome Steam uses will not exsist for W7
as such if valve would want to support W7
they would need new servers for the W7 version of steam which is expensive it would also have to be developed seperatly and would be unable to use the modern features
making it much more limited
sacred seal
And no, the software still exists, its just not getting updated
sacred seal
Uhh, webtrafic is webtraffic. You do not need different servers to handle different clients
Again, more limited
Not broken
jade scaffold
yea not broken but it would still require different servers to actually run the website OR you could hold back the entierty of steam just to make it still work on W7
sacred seal
Google is not ending chrome on 7, they are not supporting it
jade scaffold
I KNOW
sacred seal
So why cant steam do the same?
jade scaffold
steam uses the newer versions though
which as are not supported on W7
will not work
cerulean helm
A different place that has some expence assosiated with using it
Wait what? How many years were people given to freely update to Win 10? 10 launched in 15, its 2023.
sacred seal
Furture versions of steam will use newer versions
jade scaffold
and then wont work on W7 without a completly seperate legacy version
what part of webapp can you not understand
sacred seal
And there are no changes needed to the authentication server to make them work
jade scaffold
steam runs on a website in effect if the program running that website does not support the latest features that that website is trying to run the website will not work properly
sacred seal
Ok, so steam does not work properly. We know this will happeen
jade scaffold
if you want to be able to dowload new games and browse the store as such
sacred seal
That is unlikely to break
jade scaffold
you need that webapp to work on the platform
cerulean helm
That is unlikely to break
Valve has literally said thats exactly what will break. The Store UI was mentioned specifically. As well as the UI in general will stop working.
Holy crap.
sacred seal
Launching, downloading games, cloudsaves, none of that have anything to do with the stuff that chrome will break
jade scaffold
YES THEY DO
cerulean helm
The Client uses an imbedded Chrome Browser.
sacred seal
For the store
jade scaffold
to get to the store to buy a game requires that chrome app to work
cerulean helm
For the entire thing.
sacred seal
The steam app is much more then just the store
jade scaffold
its 90% the webapp
sacred seal
And actually I rarely if ever even use the store anymore
sacred seal
The only part of the app that is not the web app is literally anything that is not the store
cerulean helm
The steam app is much more then just the store
Valve has stated the UI will break, and the Store itself will not function. Its tied directly to the Steam Client, you know that thing running in your task manager all the time...
sacred seal
I know the store will possibly not work
I think they are overblowing how much it will not work, but that is a different matter
jade scaffold
neither will market or discussions or any of community or profiles or friends
sacred seal
Agreed
cerulean helm
All of it will break. Valve has stated this. What is so damn hard about understanding that? You think you know better than Valve how their code and system works?
sacred seal
Nope, auth takes place outside of the web app. So does downloading so in therory the only thing you will not be able to do is buy new games
jade scaffold
if launch game is the only functional thing in an app meant to do 1000 other things
we can agree the app is broken
correct
sacred seal
And you can do that in a browser
jade scaffold
downloading still requires the webapp christ
sacred seal
What makes you think that?
cerulean helm
Valve
sacred seal
Webapp and internet connection is not the same thing
jade scaffold
they would have to make a seperate system for communicating with the valve servers that a user wants to download somthing which is somthing the web app usually handels
sacred seal
Have you ever wrote networking code?
jade scaffold
yes
cerulean helm
Valve will not build 2 Steam Client versions for Windows, ever. Not gonna happen.
sacred seal
Good, you know that you are not reliant on one way of comunicating between the software and the server
cerulean helm
Official statement from Valve.
jade scaffold
and makeing a safe and reliable peice of software on the level of a multi billion usd company that can send a download request authenticate it then actually start a download is HARD VERY FUCKING HARD
and for what
cerulean helm
Valve literally states to run Steam itself.
jade scaffold
the nearly no one that uses windows 7
sacred seal
What I am saying is that they already do that
In all likelyhood
You do not want to stream large amounts of data through a webapp
That is not what they are designed to do
jade scaffold
they dont do that
the Use the web app to communicate with valves servers all the data needed to start a download
sacred seal
I would be shocked if the API for downloading games is even on the same servers as the store
jade scaffold
the download itself doesnt come through the web app
the webapp merely communicates with valves servers that hey User X is trying to download Product Y Heres the authentication info, heres the IP please find an apropriate download server
sacred seal
Agreed
If that. The webapp may not be responsible to that ither, but I don't know for sure
But we will assume that it is
jade scaffold
To program that handshake as a secure process would cost enormous amounts of money and i want to remind you for literally no reason atall other than to support a dead end platform thats only going to become more and more decrepit as time goes on
sacred seal
What part of the web app is going to break because its out of date. The low level API stuff, or the UI
Uhh, no programing that handshake is a fairly straight forward affair, but for the sake of argument we will presume that its not
jade scaffold
no its really not its super simple to do unsecurly
but to do securely it requires massive amounts of testing for one
aditionall companies spend alot of time planning rather than just making stuff
sacred seal
It requires some testing, yes.
jade scaffold
its why modders can pump out game content like 5x faster than entire dev teams can
they dont have to do all the quality assurance and concepting and all the other shit that ensures the quality of a product
sacred seal
I agree. In our hypothetical valve is no longer supporting windows 7 so all of that is irrelevant
The prototcol for autenticating handshakes has already been built
And because the client by nature is insecure, we don't care what the client is
jade scaffold
which will be updated to match modern security conventions as time goes on i doubt that handshake doesnt get updated every week to fix a little bug streamline it or in some other way improve it eventually it will be making use of newer functions the likes of which W7 might not support
sacred seal
That happens on the server, not the client
jade scaffold
that happens both ways
sacred seal
All security related stuff is on the server
jade scaffold
if W7 cant send X thing in Y format because the version of chrome doesnt support some random security feature it wont work
sacred seal
Ok, put it this way. If you were to install a version of firefox that is several years old and run it, could you log into the steam website?
The answer is yes, because the protocols used for security are rarely if ever updated
jade scaffold
and what happens when one is updated
sacred seal
Then any out of date veersion of a browser would be unable to connect to the website
This is rather rare, so its somewhat of a non issue
jade scaffold
rather rare and effects rather few people because all the big browsers are aware ahead of time right?
and the browsers will tell people to update them
sacred seal
Yea, which is why my example specified that we would be using a serveral year old version of firefox
jade scaffold
ok so if updating low level security protocalls which would brick most old browsers isnt an issue why is valve bricking Steam an issue again
sacred seal
What I am saying is those low level security protocols are not updated on the clients side
jade scaffold
the client side still has to support them though
sacred seal
Which they do. The protocols are the same
There is no advantage to a "secure" steam client. If it runs on the client, it can be spoofed
Therefore all security takes place on the server.
If for some reason valve wanted to update there security in such a way that would break the steam client, it would also nessasarrally brick the website on all old browser versions
We know that they have not done this in a very long time, therefore we can be fairly sure that they are not likely to need to do it any time soon
sacred seal
There are no two versions of the web app
The webapp is the webapp
The only issue happens if the webapp starts to use features which are not recognized by the old browser.
This will likely break UI
jade scaffold
which wouldnt take long
jade scaffold
yea it is
but Steam isnt just running HTML LMAO
if it was then this wouldnt be an issue
sacred seal
No its not. But we have established that the actual comunicating with the server part is unlikely to be broken by future versions of the webapp
Which leaves the UI
A lot of which is based in HTML
jade scaffold
but its running all sorts of scripts and shit and using api functions related to chrome that older chrome wont have
and if the UI breaks well then steam breaks
then all you can do is launch games and maybe download them
sacred seal
No, only the parts of the UI that are based on the webapp
jade scaffold
which incudes everything excluding the basics of liberary
sacred seal
Which are basically the same parts that are accessable to the website
jade scaffold
and like the lil buttons at the top
sacred seal
Ok, well I don't know how you use steam, but I mostly use it to download and play games that are in my library
jade scaffold
yea and playing with friends is hard when the friend list doesnt work
i like to buy games too
which i could do through a browser sure
sacred seal
You can do that from the website
jade scaffold
but thats just less convinient
sacred seal
It is. So is running windows 7 is 2023
sacred seal
So steam is completely disabling the client basically just because friends lists won't work
sacred seal
Store has a fairly painless workaround
sacred seal
I count that as all part of store
But sure, yes all of those as well
Again, all of those work in a browser
jade scaffold
and alot of complaining when it inevitably breaks
sacred seal
It still does what people installed it to do
There is going to be the same amount as when they disable it
jade scaffold
you have literally no guarentee of that
we dont even know for certain if it could download things
sacred seal
Ok, assume we cannot.
jade scaffold
ok so now it doesnt do its main purpose
jade scaffold
so now it ant even do its main purpose
sacred seal
It hampers steams functionality, but it still works
jade scaffold
Steams purpose is to manage and update games
thats its actual purpose
thats what it was built for and yea its evolved a bit past that
sacred seal
I use it to play games. Downloading and updating is kind of pointless if you cannot still play them.
jade scaffold
but when somthing gets to a point it can only do 1 of 1000 things it was meant to
its considered broken
sacred seal
If it still does the main thing I got it for, then it still fits my needs
jade scaffold
I use it to play games. Downloading and updating is kind of pointless if you can...
playing games is kinda pointless if you arent getting the latest version of them for old games i guess its fine but in that event why even buy them just like pirate them
sacred seal
People use steam for differnt reasons. I have near 1000 games, and I have played over half of them. They are basically all singleplayer
jade scaffold
pretty much all the rockstar games will take like 8 years to launch because if they dont have internet connection they get very angry and spend way too much time retrying connection to rockstars services
and you wouldnt be able to download any of thoes 1000 games
thats the issue
sacred seal
Except you can
jade scaffold
being able to play them is all well and good but god dam you better already have them all installed before it inevitably breaks
sacred seal
Even if downloading them from steam itself does not work, you can still download them elsewere and add the files
jade scaffold
no actually you cant
sacred seal
Used to have a very shit internet connection, would take my laptop, download games, and add them to my library
jade scaffold
if you can then you dont need steam in the first place to download or play them
sacred seal
Edit the text file that shows which games are installed where, and if you own them the game will launch fine
Else it will ask you to buy it
Don't even have to go through the authentication proceess
sacred seal
Nope, all games
The steam client stores which games you have installed in a raw text doc
jade scaffold
yea it does
sacred seal
The connection to the server autenticates which games you own
Any game that is on both lists are playable
No downloading nessarray
jade scaffold
but most games also have a little file that gets downloaded with them that basically tells steam that they are a steam downloaded game thats meant to be playted through steam
sacred seal
They are launched through steam
As I said, the games that are installed are stored in a text doc
jade scaffold
yes i know
you can also now if you want download games from custom built server if you want
like officially so
sacred seal
If you do not update the text doc, steam will attempt to download the game, find that its already installed, and then validate it before adding it to the library
jade scaffold
so you could set up a server on a actually fully functional OS and download your games off that
sacred seal
If the download feature does not work the validation feature likely does not as well
But the autentication feature is unrelated to that so it should still be fine
jade scaffold
so you could set up a server on a actually fully functional OS and download your...
but at that point just use the OS the servers using you already went out your way to install an OS thats modern and isn't a security hazzard or infact lacks all protection from any modern malware
sacred seal
There are other ways to get steam files opposed to downloading them from the client
Its the most convient way
But there are others
jade scaffold
i dont see why you would go through all that work
sacred seal
I don't ither, but you could
jade scaffold
when you could make a W7 VM work all the same with your janky old shit anyway and probably do way less work
sacred seal
You understamate just how janky some of these drivers are
jade scaffold
but oh well W7 steam is dying and im glad it is
sacred seal
But yes, I am not advocating for this position.
Again my issue is steam wants to break stuff that would otherwise work
And as we have discussed, there is no technical reason why they have to break it
sacred seal
It may not work fully without support, and eventually it will break
jade scaffold
costing money
sacred seal
Doubtful
jade scaffold
yea they will
sacred seal
How is steam paying 20$ a service request
jade scaffold
if it takes an hour to sort a customers shit out thats at minimum ยฃ15 if valve are paying their workers badly
jade scaffold
which they pay
sacred seal
Its likely closer to 3$s an hour
jade scaffold
im pretty sure they literally are not allowed to do that
like resetting passwords and emails and shit shouldnt be a thing an external company is even allowed to do or access
sacred seal
You know what the minimum wage in india is?
jade scaffold
thats like an ENORMOUS Security hazard
sacred seal
Thats why you have diffent departments
If you are doing stuff that requires security clearance your account is forwardeed to someone who gets payed more
cerulean helm
It hampers steams functionality, but it still works
Not what Valve's official statement says.
Why are you so bent on saying its not going to break when Valve specifically said yeah, it will?
sacred seal
And they are not very helpful to begin with, so I doubt that they would be spending more then 30 seconds to say "We see you are using windows 7, please note we do not support that platform anymore. Please upgrade to windows 10"
They only said core features
It did not define what core features are
jade scaffold
yea Core features
sacred seal
I would say store is a core feature
jade scaffold
buying games downloading them are pretty core
sacred seal
So if it only breaks the stuff you can do on the website, statement is true
And yet functionality remains mostly intact
So no, I am not contradicting vaves statement
jade scaffold
functionality at best remains half intact
in reality closer to a third intact or less
jade scaffold
no it wouldnt
cerulean helm
It did not define what core features are
They said core features aka the functionality of Steam itself.
Why is this so hard? You are literally grasping at whatever you can here.
jade scaffold
Pirmany use is to Download Update and Play them
thats 3 things
and you could only do 1 of them
sacred seal
Primary use is to play, secondary is to download and update
cerulean helm
There is nothing to argue. Valve is clear. Endf of story. They did the same with Vista and XP. Don't like it, well then don't use Steam.
jade scaffold
if steam only launched games it would have never been sucessfull
sacred seal
You can play games without downloading and updating functionality, downloading and updating is uless if you cannot play
jade scaffold
the fact it updates and downloads them is the whole reason it is sucessfull
sacred seal
The fact they forced users who already bought half life to install it if they wanted to keep playing is why they are successful
jade scaffold
no its really not
sacred seal
I think it was half life
jade scaffold
it was a bunch of games
sacred seal
nope, they had steam before that, but it only kicked off when they required a steam account to access your games
jade scaffold
they had like 10 games and making seperate installers for them would be both more expensive and less convinient to the user
so they just made a big chunky launcher in effect that could update and download all their games
sacred seal
Yes, but no one was using that launcher until they were forced to
jade scaffold
they werent even forced to
they just had to get it if they wanted to update their games
sacred seal
Yep, they got locked out of the game unless they did
No it would not be half life, it was something with multiplayer
Basically they retroactively required it to do multiplayer on one of there games
jade scaffold
Team fortress or CS
and it was also used to impliment anti cheat
also steam told everyone they were migrating everything to steam
they let people test it early and everything
sacred seal
They said core features aka the functionality of Steam itself.
Why is this so ha...
Again, they only specify core features. Its plural so its more then one, so any combination of 2 features that would be impacted would make the statement true
jade scaffold
its not like they went one day out of no where hur dur use steam or perish
sacred seal
Well it was use steam or no longer play your game
jade scaffold
somewhere between 80,000 and 300,000 people used the beta test
jade scaffold
Well it was use steam or no longer play your game
yea because it had the anti cheat and update software
the games wouldnt work without it
jade scaffold
yea then the games got updated
cerulean helm
Again, they only specify core features. Its plural so its more then one, so any ...
You have no clue what entails with core features, or how little or how much it entails with the functionality of Steam itself. You are guessing, and then demanding that you are right.
jade scaffold
and they couldn't update the game because steam handeled it
sacred seal
I don't know what core featurse would be impacted for sure
cerulean helm
I don't know what core featurse would be impacted for sure
Then stop acting like you do.
sacred seal
I know how apps work, I know what a webapp is and what is impacted by it
So I can make a reasonable guess as to what would be
jade scaffold
Valve knows better than any of us what will happen to steam
if they say it will stop working to a standard they are happy with thats quite literally all that matters
its their Program they can literally do what the fuck they want with it
you might not agree
sacred seal
Yea, legally they can. I'm saying its unethical and a dangerous precendent if applied to other things
jade scaffold
but they are killing W7 Steam and i would have done the exact same thing in their shoes
If applied to other things
yea sure
nota fucking games platform tho
and they arent again forcing an over night migration
cerulean helm
Yea, legally they can. I'm saying its unethical and a dangerous precendent if ap...
That is whataboutism at its finest.
jade scaffold
they are taking their time telling everyone waaaay in advance their plans and how its going to work
sacred seal
And that is good. Still does not ethically justify them breaking stuff because they want to
jade scaffold
people are gonna be forced to jank it or get off windows 7 but thats a tiny minority
sacred seal
Put it this way, would the world be a better or worse place if there was a law forbidding companies from purposingly disabling products they produce?
jade scaffold
Security concern, gonna brick itself all by itself anyway may as well do the brick in a way that isnt out of nowhere
sacred seal
Not what I was asking
jade scaffold
Put it this way, would the world be a better or worse place if there was a law f...
thats a broad ass statement
sacred seal
Shooting a 99 year old is not ethical
cerulean helm
people are gonna be forced to jank it or get off windows 7 but thats a tiny mino...
Ars Teknica said its less than 2% of users. If we go by last years active users of 132 million then it effects 2 million people give or take.
sacred seal
When talking about whether or not something is ethical you talk in broad strokes, then get more specific to establish the magnitued
jade scaffold
Ars Teknica said its less than 2% of users. If we go by last years active users ...
steams survey says much less
cerulean helm
Ah
jade scaffold
company should have the right to do what it wants with the stuff said company owns
a company should not have the right to brick the property of someone else
theres your awnser
sacred seal
It owns the licence for the client, it does not own the client itself. You cannot own raw data
Only access to it
sacred seal
Raw data is not copywritable
jade scaffold
define raw data
sacred seal
For this purpose 0s and 1s in some order
jade scaffold
Steams code is property of valve you cant redistribute it or modify it or base a program on it legally
cerulean helm
It owns the licence for the client, it does not own the client itself. You canno...
Uhm. Thats wrong. A car company can come take the ECM from your crashed and totaled vehicle even if you are buying it back because it contains proprietary software.
sacred seal
ECM is what in this instance
jade scaffold
Code is infact Copyrightable as all code translates to 1s and 0s there for a specificly constructed string of 1s and 0s is copyrightable
sacred seal
Yes, code is copywritable, raw data is not
jade scaffold
your definition of raw data is loose af
its so loose its actually almost meaningless
sacred seal
The distinction is that once its on someone elses PC, you cannot control what they do with it.
jade scaffold
you can actually
sacred seal
You can control if they distribute it
jade scaffold
you cant reupload steam as your own program
cerulean helm
ECM is what in this instance
The cars computer, you know, the thing that makes it run? ECM= Electronic Control Module. Used to be called the PCM and BCM and the powertrain and body were on 2 seperate computers.
jade scaffold
you cant modify it if the TOS says you cant
remember you agreed to that TOS
there for it is actually leagally binding and if you break it valve can just obliterate your account
sacred seal
Actually you can. TOS contain tones of stuff that is not legally enforceable
jade scaffold
they are unlikely too and are more likely to just ban you from all online valve servers but
jade scaffold
Actually you can. TOS contain tones of stuff that is not legally enforceable
yea its a handshake tho
sacred seal
Now yes, they have the right to refuse you service
jade scaffold
if the TOS says you maynot modify this program
sacred seal
If you violate the TOS
jade scaffold
and you then modify the program
sacred seal
But it is not actually illegal
sacred seal
If you buy a single player game, TOS says no mods, you are legally allowed to mod it
jade scaffold
and there is literally nothing you could do
because you agreed to that
legally yes
but if the game then bans you and refuses to refund you
you cant then fight that in any court because you agreed to that
sacred seal
Its single player, it cant ban you
jade scaffold
it can
sacred seal
By single player I mean not web connected
jade scaffold
they're allowd to just take back the licence for the game
then at that point your now pirating the game
which actually IS
legally enforcable
jade scaffold
TOSs are designed in a way its possible to lead to leagal stuffs even if they arent legally binding or anything
sacred seal
That is also true
jade scaffold
TOSs are basically an agreement saying for your money you get to do XYZ do anything else and you are no longer allowed to do XYZ
said agreement has some "legal" holding in the fact if you were to sue a company for taking your licence away they could say but look here they signed this TOS saying we could do exactly this and that would be the end of it
sacred seal
The cars computer, you know, the thing that makes it run? ECM= Electronic Contro...
Is that the same as a ECU?
cerulean helm
Example:
Bethesda TOS says you cannot under any circumstance take assets from one of their games and port it to another. You can own Morrowind and Skyrim but you can't just directly port anything from one to another.
If you try they will come after you legally.
Thats why Skywind is being made from scratch by the modding community.
cerulean helm
Is that the same as a ECU?
In simplest terms yes.
sacred seal
K, That is why I did not recongize the acronym. I have never heard about a car company doing that, so I cannot comment on that, other then to say that does not sound correct (the fact that the part has data on it would not entitle them to the part itself)
cerulean helm
K, That is why I did not recongize the acronym. I have never heard about a car c...
You own the car, you do not own the software that runs the car. Thats proprietary and copywrited and encrypted.
surreal moss
You own the car, you do not own the software that runs the car. Thats proprietar...
And is being challenged on multiple fronts right now
cerulean helm
Fords been encrypting their ECMs for years. Any tinkering with the ECM that involves hacking voids the vehicle warranty.
I still remember the splash that was made when someone cracked the Nissian GTR in 2010.
mossy gull
Yep, all that person does is using the laptop for paying governmental taxes.
mossy gull
jade scaffold
i love cable mod
mossy gull
I like both CableMod and Corsair, they both try to make things mostly easier
cinder lagoon
At a high cost tho high quality aswell
mossy gull
At a high cost tho high quality aswell
The weird thing is, if Corsair makes something expensive, people complain about it, when Razer does it, it's completely normal
cinder lagoon
I see both as really expensive but I see your point... ๐ค
for some reason my brain associates corsair more with expensive than razer...
mossy gull
In my experience Razer takes the cake for expensive, in the range of Apple
Corsair just has an ecosystem that makes it expensive, but still cheaper than for example EKWB
cinder lagoon
Yeah kinda except razer also has the eco system... corsair and razer are direct competitors in pretty much everything except cooling
mossy gull
Yeah kinda except razer also has the eco system... corsair and razer are direct ...
I have the feeling Corsair is giving up on competing against Razer๐
Everywhere I look Razer is recommended over Corsair, even though Razer is in quality inferior.
cinder lagoon
Ya think? I'd say they're on-par
jade scaffold
Razer build quality is really good but the longevity of their products is none existent
cinder lagoon
Why's that? How often did y'allsbrazer stjff break? XD
mossy gull
Why's that? How often did y'allsbrazer stjff break? XD
To my knowledge, the average Razer mouse survives 2 years
amber fable
My Basilisk Ultimate never did charge correctly unless the contacts had just been cleaned, and the mouse wheel is currently failing. About two years old.
I like the mouse well enough, but it didn't hold up for shit.
On the other hand, I had three different Corsair M65 mice before I got this one. They all lasted decreasing amounts of time and all died to a bad left click.
One of them had the middle mouse click fail pretty early, but scrolling still worked so it wasn't a big deal. I sometimes still run into older games where my instinct is to use one of the side buttons for an action, and then I find out that by default that thing is bound to MMB
cinder lagoon
To my knowledge, the average Razer mouse survives 2 years
Huh, damn I'll look out... mine has not shown any signs of weary... yet...
Tbf the mouse wheel sometimes like to skip a step or scroll one back randomly
mossy gull
My Basilisk Ultimate never did charge correctly unless the contacts had *just* b...
My little brother has thz 250.- costing MMO mouse, it only charges on its cradle when the computer is on.
Unlike my 3 years old Dark Core RGB SE which charges fine on my phone's Qi charger.
cinder lagoon
Sounds like the computer doesnt supply USB power in SX | X > 1
amber fable
My computer is, quite literally, never off so i don't have to worry about that. ๐
The closest it ever gets to off is the twice daily reboots to change OS.
Before I started using this computer for work, I had over a month of uptime in windows 10 once.
jade scaffold
Why's that? How often did y'allsbrazer stjff break? XD
every razor product me or any of my friends have ever owned excluding their mice for some reason has shown some form of degradation or flat out defect after only a year
One of the keys on my Old key board lost its green channel and the dial was super spastic
their Pleather as well my got that shit disintegrates soooo fast. all my friends who have owned their headphones can attest to the pleather practically turning to sand as well as their wrist wrests which happened to my one.
Thing is i wouldnt mind so much if their stuff was priced semi reasonably but its not they really do operate on the turtle beach model of "ooo look we're a gaming brand with good stuff" and are just good at marketing
Meanwhile my MX Master 2S from Logitech went for 4 whole fucking years and only broke due to the rubber expanding and getting a lil stuck which i fixed with a kitchen knife in 2 mins, I used that mouse so much the pattern on it disappeared and it turned into a smooth polished surface, i dont think ive seen a razer product last that long their laptops and keyboards certainly dont
mossy gull
Sounds like the computer doesnt supply USB power in SX | X > 1
My little brother both use a USB hub with max 100w power
cinder lagoon
My little brother both use a USB hub with max 100w power
...which doesn't guarantee that the hub won't turn off if the USB host disconnects.
But I heavily agree on the pleather.
mossy gull
...which doesn't guarantee that the hub won't turn off if the USB host disconnec...
But how do other mice just charge fine?
But Razer has a ton of problems charging?
jade scaffold
speaking of pleather i knicked my LCD2s pleather with my nail and now its unhappy
might replace the ear cups with a more fablric like material
cinder lagoon
But how do other mice just charge fine?
But Razer has a ton of problems charging...
Then idk. Maybe the charge pad requires a USB host for some reason...
cinder lagoon
might replace the ear cups with a more fablric like material
Fabric actually extremely unrecommended for sweaty applications. Only for open-back in this case.
jade scaffold
they are LCD2s nothing sweaty gonna be going on wearing these things break your fuckin kneck if you tried to do any kinda physical activity with these things on
cinder lagoon
Idk, I just assumes you are talking about some kind of head phone ^^'
jade scaffold
they weigh more than a Quest 2 they big studio headphones
cinder lagoon
Ohhh yea I see that now, they CHOMKY
jade scaffold
shockingly comphy though for weighing 540g
as you'd imagine with their 106mm drivers they sound great
mossy gull
Then idk. Maybe the charge pad requires a USB host for some reason...
We tested the charging on 4 different systems, it was on all systems the same, refusing to charge
The Razer mouse only charges on a system, with Synapse turned on, on the cradle, when turned on.
cinder lagoon
Aight yeah thats absolutely stupid
sonic meadow
Wait, what. That's stupid
mossy gull
Aight yeah thats absolutely stupid
To be fair, I rather charge my mouse upside down ๐คฃ
cinder lagoon
To be fair, I rather charge my mouse upside down ๐คฃ
NO, BAD APPLE USER
mossy gull
***NO, BAD APPLE USER***
I have 1 MacBook, 1 Surface Book 2 and 1 Asus Strix laptop and 2 "desktops".
mossy gull
***NO, BAD APPLE USER***
To be fair, at least the mouse can charge while the system is turned off unlike Razer
mossy gull
If this keyboard becomes reality, it would be my keyboard of choice
https://youtu.be/N7OVagiblPo
mossy gull
sacred seal
For what is essentially a blind person who has no concept of shapes or form, that ascii art was fairly decent
cinder lagoon
Y'all also gotta remember:
These AI Models all try to understand our world withing a few, if at all 10 Gigabytes...
Imagine doing that yourself
sacred seal
Well even beyond that, the AI itself has no concept of spatial reasoning. It only knows text as binary strings, it has no idea what the shape or form of the letters are.
barren juniper
well all my parts finally arrived
i was going to directly copy all my files over through the "256Gb" PNY flash drive that I bought at wallmart last year but it apparently only holds 32Gb even though the packaging says it is 256 and the drive it self is marked as it is 256
barren juniper
If i wanted to transfer the os from one drive to another, how would I go about doing that again?
its recovery drive right?
nvm i think i figured it out
mossy gull
If i wanted to transfer the os from one drive to another, how would I go about d...
I recommend using MediaCreationTool and a 16+GB thumbdrive if you want to reinstall Windows.
It's a much faster approach over using the build in recovery as MediaCreationTool literally downloads the most latest Windows and recovery is created from the point Windows was created, which is old and need many updates + reinstalling all updates can take ages and can cause bugs.
barren juniper
hmm
and if I wanted to re use the old computer, or sell it off, I would need another windows key right?
barren juniper
so in theory now if i just swap to the drive i want to use, and put the usb stick in again it should work
mossy gull
and if I wanted to re use the old computer, or sell it off, I would need another...
If the PC was a pre-build you don't need another key, or you can always use the key you used before.
barren juniper
its a laptop
im trying to copy over the old laptop to the "new" laptop, was wondering if i would need a new key for the old one or not
mossy gull
im trying to copy over the old laptop to the "new" laptop, was wondering if i wo...
If you move an active Windows to the other you eventually need a new key.
An OEM key, which is used on roughly 80% of all laptops only work on the laptop they came on.
barren juniper
which is funny because i switched the ssd from the old laptop to the new one because the new one came with a hard drive and it worked just fine
another weird thing is the ssd on the old laptop was a b and m key yet the port was just a b key i believe
now what if i were to pull the windows off the hard drive of the new computer
would that save me in getting a new key?
mossy gull
which is funny because i switched the ssd from the old laptop to the new one bec...
But with OEM keys only 1 can be active at the time.
barren juniper
ahh
mossy gull
another weird thing is the ssd on the old laptop was a b and m key yet the port ...
Majority of SSDs work in majority of keys, especially Sata SSDs.
barren juniper
which means i would need access to the microsoft account of the person who gave it to me since it would be bit lockered
mossy gull
which means i would need access to the microsoft account of the person who gave ...
Nope, that only works with a retail key, OEM keys are bound to a single motherboard.
barren juniper
that would explain why when ever i do something with the old ssd in the new computer it does that
mossy gull
A Retail key Windows can swap PC config 5 times ik a short time before it asks for the key.
barren juniper
no it did it the first time
and i believe its an oem key
i did the command line prompt
mossy gull
and i believe its an oem key
Although I would reinstall Windows, laptops have OEM key in the motherboard.
So you don't need a new key.
barren juniper
okay i think i get it now
mossy gull
okay i think i get it now
Only kinda laptops that don't have a Windows OEM keys are laptops like Framework and Apple laptops.
Other than that all have an OEM key on the motherboard.
mossy gull
Then they're likely to have 1
Unless they're from the W7 or older era
But then they wouldn't have SSDs
jade scaffold
words cannot describe how cute i find this thing
sadly none of the barrel plugs in my house are powerfull enough to power the little thing
mossy gull
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593040008928296979/1093169886437584907/rn...
Is, is that a cooler with a dev board attached to it?
mossy gull
So, I may have a dumb question, my phones and G15 Advantage Edition can connect to my router which jave a WPA3 "security", but my SB2 can't.
Does this need to be supported by the WiFi card?
The SB2 can find it, but whatever I do it says it can't connect
Or is this just a dumb idiocy of having a Marvell Wi-Fi card?
cinder lagoon
Nope, it's just about WPA3 incompatibility.
And for some reason some devices just won't fallback or use WPA3
amber fable
Older devices often cannot connect to newer secured wifi networks.
mossy gull
It's just odd because WPA3 is already a few years old
amber fable
The PSP didn't support WPA2, which was like 4? years old at the time.
jade scaffold
Yea wide spread use of the newer standards take longer than you would expect as people like to insure they are safer than the previous gen as well as work out any issues that pop up
sonic meadow
Also a lot of people are just using older tech. You really need client device support to be widespread before it becomes default on consumer infrastructure devices
sonic meadow
Well I would hope not... the damn tablet barely runs win10, and it came with that
cinder lagoon
Yea wide spread use of the newer standards take longer than you would expect as ...
Thing is: most APs have the setting to allow WPA2 and WPA3, the client's just get confused and probably treat the WPA3 process as WPA2 which, of course won't work
mossy gull
Thing is: most APs have the setting to allow WPA2 and WPA3, the client's just ge...
I have an SSID with WPA2 but with limited access and another with WPA3 with full access to the modem.
jade scaffold
Funky question does w11 have native arm support and if so does it have a good compatibility layer to run x86 programs on arm
cinder lagoon
Not anything better than W10... absolutely not recommended for literally anything other than browser stuff
jade scaffold
W11 does have a version that runs natively on arm with a compatability layer for programmes. in the end I'm gonna be using Linux anyway was just wondering if windows would have anything that wouldn't require several days of fucking arround
Idea eventually is to have a mini pc that I can just pocket and do everything I normally would on a desktop
cinder lagoon
steam deck but make it DIY
jade scaffold
The very final evolution of it is I'm hoping to be a laptop like a modern arm mac just not made by a shit company and is upgradable
cinder lagoon
Well, the mac translation layer along with the M series chips are very top tier. You won't get anywhere near that with a DIY solution.
I would say your best bet is the Framework mk2. Upgradable, High performant, mobile, supports both Windows and Linux fully featured, Open Hardware standards.
jade scaffold
But the first iteration is gonna be a mac mini kinda deal but a bit smaller footprint and cooled better
jade scaffold
Well, the mac translation layer along with the M series chips are very top tier....
The mac translation layers aren't that good
cinder lagoon
But the first iteration is gonna be a mac mini kinda deal but a bit smaller foot...
Framework motherboard + enclosure
jade scaffold
Frame work are using x86 chips which may I remind you are all horrendously inefficient unless they have 3d V cache
cinder lagoon
The mac translation layers aren't that good
They are pretty darn good to be honest.
An Overhead factor of 18% is fabulous.
mossy gull
W11 does have a version that runs natively on arm with a compatability layer for...
So does W10, still runs like shite
jade scaffold
Yea that's just windows generally
cinder lagoon
Frame work are using x86 chips which may I remind you are all horrendously ineff...
3D V cache has nothing to do with efficiency. More cache just means less waiting times.
Getting x86 software to reliably run on arm64 is a PITA
mossy gull
The faster a program loads the less power it'll use
cinder lagoon
Are you talking efficiency per watt or ?
jade scaffold
Power consumption relative to performance
cinder lagoon
Ahh okay because efficiency is a broad term :D
cinder lagoon
3D v-cache has huge impacts on efficiency
Can't say so myself... upgraded from a 3700X to 5800X3D and the idle consumption is 30% higher.
jade scaffold
A 60w chip with 3d v-cache will perform identically of not better depending on task than a otherwise identical one running at 100w
From amd 7000 anyway
cinder lagoon
A 60w chip with 3d v-cache will perform identically of not better depending on t...
You must not forget what you are comparing. I believe you did not factor out generational improvements.
cinder lagoon
Any sources to back that up? 7000 vs 7000X3D also had generational improvements.
jade scaffold
How'd they have generational improvements? They are literally the same cores
jade scaffold
Any sources to back that up? 7000 vs 7000X3D also had generational improvements.
Linus tech tips vids on the new x3ds shows large potential savings in power thus money from the x3d chips
cinder lagoon
That's what you think but if they were they could not just glue more cache on top. X3D chips are pretty different from their cousins and probably have different internal architecture.
cinder lagoon
I bet they don't, otherwise why wouldn't they start with vastly better products.
jade scaffold
Then it's as simple as taking the most stable chips because clock stability is very important in 3d v-cache and adding the extra cache on top with what ever process that's done with
jade scaffold
I bet they don't, otherwise why wouldn't they start with vastly better products.
Amd has boasted 0 other improvements to the x3ds over the normal ones
mossy gull
The fast the memory the less the CPU has to wait, lowering its overall usage.
However, only games benefit a lot from X3D, other programs sadly do no.
jade scaffold
It would also be far far less economical
Other programs still see lower power draw
Weirdly enough
cinder lagoon
They actually could
Imma call ๐งข on that for now.
back to your project: I highly recommend against using arm64 chips for it.
Also given that arm64 are seemingly always SOCs which are not at all upgradable.
mossy gull
A slower lower wattage CPU actually consumes far more than a faster higher wattage CPU.
Sadly Intel is great at making high wattage slow CPUs 
jade scaffold
So you can take the SOC board put and replace it
Would also like to see a board with a reasonable gpu on it as well as a cpu that I could fit in a pocket
cinder lagoon
That's more or less just a motherboard.
Let's call it IO board since it's already an established definition for this sort of module.
mossy gull
Keep in mind an SoC isn't efficient with X86 and X64 calculations.
If you want to run X86 and X64 I suggest you use a laptop CPU over an SoC
jade scaffold
I'm. Hoping to run the vast majority of things natively
It's only going to be games and emulation that will be done through compatability layers
mossy gull
Which I would recommend against, games should be run native as long Apple won't share their SoC
jade scaffold
Why?
Alot of emulated games theoretically won't need much in the way of additional compatibility layers anyway
Most DS and u think there is a switch emulator that can run arm natively
cinder lagoon
Keep in mind an SoC isn't efficient with X86 and X64 calculations.
If you want t...
X86 is the instruction set. X64 is the register size.
cinder lagoon
I'm. Hoping to run the vast majority of things natively
Windows SoC arm support is craptastic at best, regarding programs.
Better luck on Linux but you will definitely run into barriers there too.
jade scaffold
Arm is often referred to as x64 as its not technically wrong
mossy gull
X86 is also known as 32-bit, which can't run 64-bit programs.
jade scaffold
I think the ARM instruction set is called ARM64EC technically
cinder lagoon
Arm is often referred to as x64 as its not technically wrong
Your referred to referred "arm" is called arm64 and it's an anstruction set.
...coincidentally named alongisde it's compatible architecture
jade scaffold
Also people like to love on Apples m chips then fail to realise most of their performance comes from acellerators and in raw power they actually aren't anything special apple just make really good use of hardware acceleration
cinder lagoon
Yeah, almost like it's an elaborate product-to-os-tailorization
jade scaffold
Which is what apple are really good at specifically
Luckily arm is a super common chip type in both industry and consumer electronics so there's a hell of alot of stuff already made natively for them. Alot of the issues om seeing with people trying to get arm SOCs to run games in the gpu on them which fingers crossed shouldn't be an issue for me because it has a NVidia gpu on it
cinder lagoon
...you do realise tho that nVidea is just the brand and they have graphics accelerators for specific architectures?
It just being nVidea means probably not much except it supports CUDA operations and similar stuff.
Make sure it uses the same or similar architecture as the regular x86 graphics cards and wether it's connected via PCIe internally.
jade scaffold
It does
It's volta
The later gen one I'm going to upgrade to is a ampere gpu with nearly as many cores as a 1060 with a not too dissimilar clock speed
cinder lagoon
Noice
jade scaffold
Also got tensor cores so there's some possibility of running an ai upscaler real time not DLSS because it's not open source but there are some decent ones arround it's more about tbh if other ones would make any performance improvement
jade scaffold
i love razers april fools advertising
they put far too much effort into them and its briliant
jade scaffold
It be functioning wish I knew how much power it's drawing can't be that much because that tiny ass heatsink fan is sat fukin idle
cold girder
anyone got the 7950x3d?
jade scaffold
nope not many people really are gonna have it
cold girder
damn was wondering about it might just get the 7800x3d
jade scaffold
what are you doing?
if you are just gaming then the 7800x3D is a better choice
if you are doing actual work stuff the 7950x none 3d is a better choice unless power consumption is a real concern for you in which case the 7950x3d is a good choice
cold girder
Need to process CAD files and play games. power consumption is always a concern
jade scaffold
how complex are these CAD files
like if they aren't super complex i dont see any sense in spending more money than you would really need to
one thing to note the 7950x 3D is actually slower than the 7950x when it comes to typical multi core aplications such as rendering because the clock speed on half of its cores are reduced
cold girder
not too complex they are basic structural design concepts to render but def need the upgrade for games
jade scaffold
games cant currently use more than 8 cores typically and the ones that do only really need to if you have a 4090 or somthing
a 7800x3D will do very well in games and work for anything weaker than a 4090
cinder lagoon
agree with everything said
barren juniper
setting up windows on the new computer now, hopefully i chose the right drive
damn i chose the wrong one
also my second drive is not showing up in file explorer but is showing up in device manager, how do i fix that?
sonic meadow
Is it showing up in disk management?
barren juniper
in device manager yes
sacred seal
Disk management is not the same as device manager
barren juniper
well it seems windows didnt install correctly anyways, so i gotta start over again
sonic meadow
Disk management is a separate thing from device manager. It is used for managing disks and their partitions. It is available as a part of the computer management application, or on its own
barren juniper
yeah doesnt seem to have it, when i search for it it brings up a internet search result
unless its called something else
sonic meadow
It usually says format disk partitions or something like that for me (win10)
It's possible they have done more enfuckening of the system management/configuration stuff in win11
sonic meadow
At least it's a fast install these days
barren juniper
yeah pretty fast
still not fast enough to prevent me from playing with my cat, and getting the cat toy caught in the blades of the ceiling fan and having the toy hurled at my monitor...
first time using it in a long time
sonic meadow
Hehehe
barren juniper
okay it shows up in task manager but not file explorer, let me check disk manager
also im on windows 10
i know its there because i have booted off both of the drives
mossy gull
@barren juniper if your drive doesn't show up then see if you can find it in Disk Manager I think it's called, Explorer cannot read unformatted drives so it won't show them, you have to format them 1st in Disk Manager.
Windows isn't broken.
cinder lagoon
Ohh god, more windows and disk shenanigans to fix
west mirage
HEY
hey
why wont battle fleet gothic armada 2 play on my main monitor
when I tried to move it using windows shift
it wouldn't stay
i have my middle monitor set as main too
its being stubborn
its a steam game as well
surreal moss
Try alt enter, dragging it around, and alt enter again?
sacred seal
Check the video settings, I think it may have it's own monitor config
barren juniper
so what am i looking for again in disk optimizer to get my second drive to show up?
sacred seal
disk management
sacred seal
Screen grab?
sacred seal
It should look something like this
barren juniper
so i have to partition the drive to get it to work?
barren juniper
where would i do that from
sacred seal
If the problem is the drive is not initialized, you do it from this menu
If its not showing up there, then we have some problems
barren juniper
it only shows up in the menu if i boot off of it, but then the other drive doesnt show up
right now i have it booted off disk 1
disk 0 no longer shows up
sacred seal
When you say menu, which menu are you refering to?
barren juniper
that window there
sacred seal
The disk management menu?
barren juniper
yes
sacred seal
So it only shows disk 1? You don't have a disk 0 that you can click on?
barren juniper
yes
could it be hp being hp?
there are versions of this computer with 2 drives, but this one only came with one from the factory
sacred seal
Its not impossible, but its highly unlikely.
Expecially since it is showing up as disk 1
and not disk0
barren juniper
i first installed windows on disk 0, then noticed it was the wrong one so i reinstalled it on disk 1
sacred seal
Ok, lets try this. Open command propt and type diskpart
then list disk
Does the drive show up there?
barren juniper
yes
barren juniper
0
sacred seal
So select disk 0
Then:
clean
convert gpt
create partition primary
format quick fs=ntfs
assign
This will erase any data that is on it
barren juniper
there we go
thank you very much
i always assumed it would be plug and play
and everything i found online was for windows 7 or windows 11
sacred seal
New drives are never plug and play, but normally its just go into disk managemeent and initialize
barren juniper
k
sacred seal
Not sure why we had to do it via command prompt
barren juniper
that part im guessing is maybe hp?
who knows
this thing came from the factory with only a hard drive, but it has a nvme slot and there are other versions that come with both
sacred seal
All I can say is that computers do weird things sometimes. Glad that this worked
west mirage
@sacred seal it didn't work
it'll play gothic armada 2 on any fucking screen but my main
This is the first time this has ever happened
steam is now also changing which monitor is my main
and I have to reset it in windows display settings
how is that possible
this is infuriating
mossy gull
@barren juniper make a photo with your phone
cold girder
I had a similar issue when I got a new monitor the game used a separate setting like using an Nvidia selection over the Windows selection. on mine, I had to allow either Nvidia to override the window primary monitor or vice-versa?
mossy gull
I had a similar issue when I got a new monitor the game used a separate setting ...
Bethesda games do this as well, look if the game has an INI file somewhere
cold girder
yeah they get sneaky with those setting sometimes
jade scaffold
Extra jank acquired
cold girder
that looks like it won't make it thru security!! or shouldn't be left in a backpack...
barren juniper
<@221476957936812033> it didn't work
one thing that i have tried before is to make the monitor you want to use as your primary monitor
cinder lagoon
If the game has it's own monitor selection in the graphics settings, they will most likely override anything else
west mirage
Its already set as primary
cinder lagoon
Its already set as primary
...Send a screenshot of the games video/graphics settings
cinder lagoon
Its already set as primary
Doesn't matter.
sacred seal
So I booted up deadlock, it's video settings are super basic and it does not seem to have any monitor selection options
cinder lagoon
Hmmm okay
west mirage
Same with gothic armada
cinder lagoon
Same with gothic armada
What happens when you unplug the secondary display?
Also restart the machine with the secondary display unplugged, then replug.
merry bay
Ok, so I'm trying to get X4 to run on my laptop and every time I try to launch it I get this message. Any known fixes? I've tried disabling my graphics card. It starts find but when I reenable it, it just shows the error again.
Also, I've got a RTX 3070
sacred seal
What gpu do you have it configured to run on in Nvidia control panel
mossy gull
Ok, so I'm trying to get X4 to run on my laptop and every time I try to launch i...
Some games, if they don't understand the GPU, they won't start