Tech Lab forum - General Discussions!

[jade scaffold]

just realised i can deffos poke the sodim slot with a screw driver to activate system reset

[cinder lagoon]

NO BAD TRASH BAG!!

[jade scaffold]

i will jab the sodim slot with a tiny screwdriver

[sonic meadow]

if you arent careful, it will end up in Trash Bag's Trash Bag

[cinder lagoon]

along with the Jetson 🤓

if you had a breakout board for that connector you could literally just use some jumpers to wire up the ones you need xD

like some USB, all DP0 and some of the GPIO ones

[jade scaffold]

the PCIE lanes and USB are my main interest in that diagram also the display pins

oh yea for sure

[cinder lagoon]

Display and PCIe might be tricky because of signal integrity.

[sonic meadow]

well you can wire pcie over loose wire 😆

[cinder lagoon]

it just all has to be the same length :P

[jade scaffold]

yep

[sonic meadow]

ehhh, ish

at least for gen1

[jade scaffold]

they are gen 4s

well some gen 3s too

[sonic meadow]

I saw a thing where the person had pulled the USB chip off a pi3, and soldered flying leads to the pcie lanes so he could wire other pcie devices to the board

[cinder lagoon]

I only see PCIe0 - you sure it has several and not just plit lanes?

[sonic meadow]

not very long leads obviously

[cinder lagoon]

that's because the pi3 has PCIe 1x gen 2. That was still pretty resilient

[jade scaffold]

yes

its got a single gen 3 lane for some reason and 4 gen 4s

usually do see 2 M.2s on the carrier boards one for wifi and one for SSDs i assume they'd run the WIFI off the Gen 3 and the SSD off the Gen 4 tbf 4x gen 4 is alota bandwidth

[sonic meadow]

I am only counting four lanes on your connector, is one being left out or am I going blind?

[jade scaffold]

Nvidias website is saying theres 4 gen 4s and 1 gen 3

would be kinda dopey for them to type their enterprise products specs wrong

[cinder lagoon]

the specific M.2 keys actually don't all support PCIe. E-key supports x1 with USB2, M-key x4 with SATA3 and B-Key USB2 and SATA3

[cinder lagoon]

what I said

[sonic meadow]

I am seeing rx/tx0-3. no 4

[cinder lagoon]

most WiFi cards are B key, the newer ones increasingly mPCIe or E-key

[jade scaffold]

oh shit thats the Nano not the NX data sheet brain fart though both can go into identical carrier boards but would somehow have differing pinouts?

[cinder lagoon]

so there is logic on the carrier boards...

uh-ohhh not gud

[jade scaffold]

there might be yea. though that might only be needed to support multiple of the differing devices as theres the Xavier NX Xavier Nano Orin NX

[cinder lagoon]

true true

if you create a "dumb" carrier that's absolutely possible.

[jade scaffold]

the NX and the Nano of the Xavier veriety from what i know work pretty flawlessly with eachother the Orin however has a different enough pinout to where certain features will not work

well the Chipset that the carriers that support multiple use. uses code that Nvidia have open source i do believe

so theres no super low level programming needed hopefully

[cinder lagoon]

"hopefully"

[sonic meadow]

I found the pinout for the xavier nx, which does luckily have both pcie0(four lanes) and pcie1(one lane) listed

[cinder lagoon]

your word in gods ear :P

[jade scaffold]

awesome

[sonic meadow]

https://developer.download.nvidia.com/assets/embedded/secure/jetson/tx2_nx/Jetson_TX2_NX_Pin_and_Function_Names_Guide_DA-10697-001_v1.0.pdf?yX6BtI-YpvPZ2PTiAJrzhiYaHK8FqKv5w5vfNJDPaVhudRuNO_TuKHgDRBdCtZQTLVsiIIrErTX4eWLZGSHgHomcIao41yW5s1tZGlrDhfv0USHHAM09h4ikbNsSmPV2pKoc0f3Wmp5YpQvP3Wi9cac5ZtHiy6eK-jVpgOpKrBxf4L9yQUu4WJUQma0BFrHpQWCNqhnsTtXGEEo1OrT8_C9yPUs=&t=eyJscyI6ImdzZW8iLCJsc2QiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy5nb29nbGUuY29tLyJ9
oh god that url

[jade scaffold]

the pinout table for the NX NVidia supply is so shit compared to the Nano

the nano has the lovely table actually layed out like the slot the NX is just heres the top pins heres the bottom pins have fun

[cinder lagoon]

can pretty much always delete everything from the first Question mark ;)

[sonic meadow]

the pcie1 pins are 167/169, 173/175, 172/174, 182/183. which are listed as RSVD on your image

[jade scaffold]

oh thats how they work fine with eachother

it just reserves the pins

they dont do anything on the nano

[sonic meadow]

I tried that, got a 403

[jade scaffold]

so if you had a NX board with a slot wired to them and pluged a nano into it it just wouldnt be able to access whats on thoes pins

Discord should have a way to easilly hyperlink a word

just like i found the pinout here and you could just click on it without having to drown a channel in a bigass link

[sonic meadow]

as a user I would love that, as someone who mods on a different server... bleh

[cinder lagoon]

Discord supports markdown but seemingly only some aspects of the standart.
lemme test something... <a text="test" href="localhost">

nope

[sonic meadow]

well considering thats not the markdown syntax for a link. that would be this: test

[cinder lagoon]

yeah but markdown does support html embeds.
Discord also completely supports markdown apparently, just only bots can use it 🙄

Discord: So intuitive, yet so ass-backwards

[mossy gull]

Discord desktop still doesn't support touch displays

[sonic meadow]

huh. I never installed it on my windows tablet so never noticed.

it doesnt have the resources to spare to have webbrowser running all the time

[mossy gull]

I have, because it's much easier than having 3 keyboard and 3 mice.

[sonic meadow]

its already on my pc, my laptop, my phone, and my android tablet. I dont really need it on a fifth device 😆

[cinder lagoon]

it does? typing from my surface screen rn

[mossy gull]

I mean touch related stuff like swiping and shit

[cinder lagoon]

scrolling? Discord doesn't have much sliding to do I think

or doe you mean support sliding out the server list?

[mossy gull]

Same as on Android and Apple OS

[cinder lagoon]

hmm but that design is stupid on larger screens. it's only a workaround for those small ones

[mossy gull]

It would work amazing for smaller Windows tablets

[sacred seal]

Considering that discord does not know how big a screen is (to my knowledge) and how rare small touchscreen devices running windows are, there is no easy way to implement it

[mossy gull]

They could port the iPad version to Windows and have 2 Windows versions

[sacred seal]

Porting something like that is generally not easy, would likely be simpler to just duplicate and modify the windows edition.
But now you are maintaining another version of the product

[mossy gull]

With the amount of users they have they get enough money to have 10 different versions

[sacred seal]

Yea, but concidering how many people would use the 2nd windows edition, and the mess that would come from people installing the wrong windows version it would not be profitable

No company is interested in releasing a feature that makes them less profitable

[mossy gull]

At least give the option.
On my Surface I have to put the scaling on 100% to make it look normal.
But then I need binoculars to read.

[sacred seal]

Again, having the option would likely make discord less profitable overall. Maintaining a new version isin't free, and having users install the wrong version is a real threat to user experience

[mossy gull]

Then make it look more modern😃

Currently it's a pain to use on touch displays.
Especially because you have no "send" button

[sacred seal]

your touch keyboard has an enter button

[mossy gull]

But you have to call your keyboard even if you want to send a single emote

[sacred seal]

And? calling your keyboard should happen by default if you click the text box

And based on my tests just now, I suspect that inserting an emoji will also bring up the keyboard

If anything it should be easier in most cases as most users are right handed, and pressing the enter key requires you to take your hand off of the mouse

[mossy gull]

Sometimes it doesn't 😅

[mossy gull]

It actually doesn't, keyboard stays off

[sacred seal]

Hmm, odd. Adding an emoji on desktop puts the cursor inside the text box

Which should call up the keyboard

Ah well, if it doesn't we now have one edge case where you have to tap on the screen one extra time if you only want to send an emoji

[mossy gull]

But when you use the tablet in portrait Discord glitches and the UI bugs out

[sacred seal]

That is something that should probably be fixed, but we are talking about an edge case inside an edge case inside an edge case

[mossy gull]

But on PC you can expect people to have weird displays, not everyone has a 16:9

This is why I think the Apple OS and Android variant are way more advanced

[sacred seal]

Not everyone has 16:9, but 99.9% of users will have something similar

In the case of mobile apps, screen orentation is a feature that is baked into the programing system and is generally accessible.

If you try to use the web version of the app on mobile and force it into desktop mode, it won't work very well

But that is the case for most websites

[mossy gull]

For me Discord has tons of problems.

[sacred seal]

Yea, but I suspect most things would have similar issues. You try running a game on that display and its not going to work very well

When you have a atypical setup it should not be surprising that you will run into weird issues, and devs don't have much incentive to fix issues affecting a subset of a subset of a subset of their users

[mossy gull]

If I want to stream I have put Discord on my main display because my secondary display is on my iGPU.

If I don't do that people experience tons of lag

[sacred seal]

Again, a rather odd edge case. Not a lot of people run displays on different GPUs.

And that is likely more of an issue with windows then it is with discord

[cerulean helm]

I'm not sure why its so hard to find but I was looking for Intel's Vcore spec for 13th gen. I haven't found an actual Intel statement but from what I have read the max Vcore is 1.52v. Which is insane as I just replaced a 8700k where 1.4v was considered in the dangerous zone.

My 13700k at idle/desktop runs 1.45-1.47v to hit 6ghz on 1 core and 5.9 on 3 cores, with the E cores at 4.4. Which is middle of the road normal from what I have read. Anyone know any different?

[sonic meadow]

Vcore varies by CPU batch (not model, but essentially individual CPUs within a run), and has done since at least the core 2 chips.
They also typically idle at a higher voltage than when under load.
Those are just a few reasons why most CPU voltage control is done via offsets these days

[mossy gull]

There's a reason Intel is so power hungry

[jade scaffold]

Just run android discord in a container christ

[mossy gull]

Bluestacks causes a lot of performance issues and I don't have W11.

[jade scaffold]

Right then that's a your pc issue

If discord wanted the android or ios version to run on Windows it would have to be done through a container anyway

Otherwise they are just spending several hundreds of thousands making an entirely new version of discord for a use case of all of 3 people

[mossy gull]

You also can add a theme to a program, just flip a switch in the settings and have a newer or different UI.

They're just too lazy to make a newer more modern UI on Desktop.

[mossy gull]

It's a software issue, I reported the performance issue to Bluestacks without even hearing something back.

[jade scaffold]

The ui on desktop and phone is styled identically

[sonic meadow]

It's probably the exact same software/codebase between android/windows/other

[mossy gull]

Android looks way way more modern, while on Windows still looks like the same UI it got released with.

[jade scaffold]

And turning desktop discord into phone discord isn't a simple switch flip its 3 entirely separate applications you'd need to either rebuild alot of the desktop one or make a separate version

[jade scaffold]

I'm on android now and no it really doesn't

It's identical near enough other than being all crammed together for phone purposes

[sonic meadow]

Considering it's just a webapp anyway

[jade scaffold]

The ui is still client side

[mossy gull]

But you can hide almost everything and has a send button.
You don't constantly see the server list or channel list on Android/AppleOS.

This is what bothers me on Desktop, I can't hide the server list/channel list/users list, it's always there.
It makes it way more cluttered than it should be.
When you place a display in portrait the UI takes 70% of the freaking display with only a tiny bit for the actual shit I want to see.

[jade scaffold]

OK so get better discord then

It's a breach of tos cos it modifies the client but you could probs use it to hide the server lists

[mossy gull]

Why can't the default app do the same?
If ramdoms can make a better program for free and a giant company can't something is wrong.

[jade scaffold]

Because why the fuck should it

[mossy gull]

Because almost any other chat program can and Discord can't, it's like they still think people use Windows 7.

[sonic meadow]

Because they already have

[mossy gull]

It's like everything looks hyper modern, works more modern, and then you have Discord and NVidia who still have UIs out of the 2000s.

[jade scaffold]

That'd cost money and benifit few people only benifiting thoes who have their monitors in verticle mode and have text scaling set too high

[mossy gull]

It makes it more accessible.

Not everyone sits 10cm away from their displays to see 100% scaling on high dpi panels.

Ubuntu Linux, a project that probably gets less money in a year than Discord in a month, looks 40 years in the future compared to Discord.

[jade scaffold]

The 2 UIs are the same stylistically the desktop doesn't have a send button because it's intended use is pc gaming where a person will have a 16:9 screen which is why it doesn't have touch screen support in the same way the android app does and in the event you haven't noticed the android app is hella jank

What you also seem to think is companies with alot of money have good programmers

Spoiler they don't

[mossy gull]

Not everyone has a 16:9 display.
Also Discord has problems when a window is too narrow.
With Skype, yes that Skype, I can put it all the way on the side of the display, take up like 20% max, and then you have Discord, that takes at least 40%

The fact that the UI cannot be hidden on Discord means you need almost an entire 1:1 display just to have it open.

[jade scaffold]

No not everyone does have a 16:9 display

But what lunitics running smaller than 4:3

And discord is fine at that aspect ratio

[mossy gull]

MS Surface users.
Where it has it has to take 70% of the display because it cannot go narrower.

And if you force it to go narrower the texting area disappears, being taken over by the server, channel and users bar.

It's poor programming.

[jade scaffold]

OK so you don't fit the demographic discord is aimed at why would they care it'd cost them more money then they would earn to make upgrades to the currently pretty stable desktop discord

[mossy gull]

If Ubuntu can make a very modern UI with less money and an entire OS, then Discord can with just a chat program.

[sonic meadow]

Upgrades that already exist in what is probably an identical codebase

[jade scaffold]

You can't just send android discord onto pc

That's not how that works

[sonic meadow]

You can if it's running the same thing with different flags for platform in each

Which is how it's smelled to me, at least for discord

[jade scaffold]

Discords apps do not run off of a server

The apps are all significantly different

[sonic meadow]

I never said they did

[mossy gull]

Canonical made last 84 million dollars in revenue, Discord made 130 million.

Here's the kicker, Canonical build 4 different OS' with a modern and intuitive UI, Discord makes 3 chat programs where 2 on mobile look relatively modern and 1 on desktop that doesn't,.

[sonic meadow]

Running off a server is not how packaged webapps work. Unless they are built that way

[jade scaffold]

money means nothing

Stop talking about money money does not buy you good programmers

[sonic meadow]

It gives an idea of possible scale. The higher revenue suggests a larger potential scale

[jade scaffold]

People who make programs ect out of passion will 100% of the time trump any group of developers payed to do a job

[mossy gull]

Discord has 3 times the amount of people than Canonical.
You're gonna say with 3 times the amount of people you don't have a higher chance for good programmers?

[jade scaffold]

Yes

Exactly that

[sonic meadow]

More people means they can work on more things concurrently

[mossy gull]

This is what I mean

[jade scaffold]

Also scale has serous issues for development time too

Because the bigger and more structured an organisation is they more verification testing qc goes on eventually that starts to strangle the dev time by alot

[mossy gull]

Why can Canonical do so much more than Discord can.
Discord doesn't have to make a whole operating system times 4 and make it work near perfect on billions of different PCs, Discord has a tiny chat program that works less optimal than MSN.

[cinder lagoon]

you can do that yourself :D

[mossy gull]

Last time I checked you aren't allowed to modify the Discord apps.

[cinder lagoon]

it's a grey zone tbh

else they would have already done something against betterDiscord ages ago...

[jade scaffold]

Chances are that's a real passion project for the team and again programmers who get to make what they want to make are far far more productive

Also discords main and only purpose is to make money wasting thousands on making a few people who aren't even part of your target group makes 0 sense

[cinder lagoon]

but betterDiscord also ensures that the community plugins follow some rules and actually prohibited ones like "show private channels"

[jade scaffold]

You aren't but that stops literally no one

Show private channels isn't a bad one any more because you can't access them like you used to a few years back

[cinder lagoon]

try it! you really ain't gonna get banned for client-side css injection

[cinder lagoon]

was still "shut down" because Discord ToS updated or just to be safe

[jade scaffold]

You can also reskin discord with better discord get rid of that fugly grey

[cinder lagoon]

but those themes usually make discord pretty laggy :/

[jade scaffold]

Get a cool illustration of a black hole

[jade scaffold]

That's only if they have too much going on

Most of the proper verified themes are fine

[mossy gull]

I prefer stuff to be native.
Discord can easily make a new theme that's more modern.
Not to mention the OLED mode on mobile devices has been in Beta for years now, like they done nothing to make it better.

OLED mode is completely absent from the Desktop app while the LG Cx have been few of the most popular displays for PC.

Discord Desktop has the same UI since it came out on W7, Canonical has seen huge improvements to the UI in that amount of time.

Discord is plagued with year old issues they could've solved or enhanced years ago.
The fact they don't and keep hanging onto old shit is just annoying.

[jade scaffold]

Why do you prefer native stuff that's so dumb

I modify just Bout anything I can get my hands on

[sonic meadow]

Not like discord PC is "native" anyhow, it's an electron app

Aka a webpage

[jade scaffold]

It's a webpage with a very much separate ui

[mossy gull]

Because my programming skills are not good, I tried many times but me having an annoying cylinder in my eyes that glasses/eye lenses can't fix I have problems reading anything small.
My scaling is on my current 34" somewhere around 175% and 225% so I can read it without squinting.

[jade scaffold]

Better discord requires no programming knowlage unless you want to do somthing very custom

[mossy gull]

Just a more modern UI in the native Discord app.

[cinder lagoon]

just downloading in-app through the theme repo will absolutely get you there

[jade scaffold]

Just a simple installer and installing new themes is the same sorta thing as a mc resource pack

[cinder lagoon]

and then you can still increase DPI through a theme

[mossy gull]

MC resource packs confuse me and I never got 1 to work normally 😅

[cinder lagoon]

that's on you then, sorry

[jade scaffold]

You just drop it in a folder

How can you even use a computer if you can't do that

[mossy gull]

More like explanations being very vague and when asking for help I was usually send to a webpage which didn't help at all.

[jade scaffold]

YouTube tutorials were very clear for me when I was 8

[mossy gull]

Trust me, I barred 1 of my laptops by accident from streaming.
Every outgoing streaming thing didn't work and I didn't know how I got it that far🤣
I reinstalled Windows just to change that.

[mossy gull]

Is it odd I get lost with a video and not with a written tutorial?

[jade scaffold]

Some people find one easier than the other

[mossy gull]

And written tutorials are pretty vague, or well the ones I find😃

It's like "put it in the MC folder" and I am like "Dude, I have 4".

I just want programs to look more modern.
If Canonical can, so can Discord, and NVidia for that matter.

[jade scaffold]

It's literally download thing and put in folder

I do not know how someone can fail to write a 2 instruction tutorial

[cinder lagoon]

alright, you have to drop it into the folder of the profile you want it to work on

most people needing tutorials for it only have the default latest instance, so nobody mentions it

[cinder lagoon]

there is a difference tho - gnome shell has been developed for extending/modifying it. it's built in js modules and it still amazes me how it can be so fast. but changing the looks of the things is applying pretty much a 20 line css theme.
Discord ones are actually multiple kB in size.

[mossy gull]

And usually I just see stuff like "put it in the MC folder"

[mossy gull]

I mean, in my non programmer mind it feels like if 1 program can do it others can as well, and if they don't want to change it's just lazy.

[jade scaffold]

It's not lazy it's economically sensible

Discords entire purpose is gain lots of investors then be sold off that's the whole reason behind its creation it wasn't made because people wanted a better chat app for playing games

[mossy gull]

It's lazy

[jade scaffold]

It's not though
Its low-key nothing to do with the programmers

It's gonna be management saying doing x isn't worth the economic investment which tbf they aren't really wrong it's not sure it'd be a nice to have for the users but it's not gonna cause an influx of new users or investments not enough to offset the costs of implimenting it

[mossy gull]

It's usually just not bothering with it, it's like NVidia still using the XP interface, it's lazy and counter intuitive.

[jade scaffold]

It's not tho

It's management doing what management do best and being cheap

Also what nvidia ui you talking about

Their Gforce experience ui is fine no more confusing than win 10s is

[mossy gull]

Their settings UI, yes NVidia has 2, 1 useless UI which is modern and the settings UI which is counter intuitive.

AMD and Intel have them in 1 package with a modern UI

[jade scaffold]

You mean the one where you right click on the desktop to open it

Yea that's old looking there's actually a reason for that

[mossy gull]

To stop people from using it?

[jade scaffold]

You aren't meant to touch it unless you actually know what you are doing
it's meant to be code wise as simple as possible. fancy animations take performance and due to complexity they have added risk of crashing or glirch9ng which when you are messing with settings that could brick your computer you don't want to do There's a reason the OSs used on super computers and data centres have the most basic ui that is possible to have its vastly more reliable to do so

Less fancy=more reliable and vice versa

[mossy gull]

AMD and Intel graphics settings are in 1 package, use less resources to use it and they're overall more snappy.
AMD even has their OC settings in the driver as well, while with NVidia you also need Afterburner.

[jade scaffold]

Thoes settings aren't the same

Oc settings fair enough nvidia really should have their own app for it

But I tels and amds command apps expose nothing even close to what the nvidia control panel exposes

It's hard to brick a pc with an oc it's very easy to do with the nvidia control panel you have to reinstall windows to reverse its effects if you can't get back to it

[mossy gull]

In NVidia if I want to change the FreeSync/Gsync or whatever settings you need to go to the NVidia Settings thing.
Which is overall very clunky and confusing.

AMD has everything together if it comes to that.
How much settings do you think AMD has?
NVidia Control Panel and AMD Software both have the same settings.

[jade scaffold]

Moral of the story don't fuck with the Nvidia control panel if you don't actually know what you are doing which the vast vast majority of people do not

What amd software you talking about specifically

[mossy gull]

But you have to fuck with it if you have to change your monitor settings.

[mossy gull]

Radeon Software

[jade scaffold]

Because the amd control panel that allows for the modification of advanced setting looks like its out of xp as well

[mossy gull]

I use Radeon Software and can change anything.

[jade scaffold]

Which radeon software there's like 50 of them

[mossy gull]

It's just called AMD Radeon Software.

I am talking about the latest version

[jade scaffold]

That allows for only the basics you could not brick your pc with it

The radeon advanced features program which you actually could shit box your pc is separate and is a very Windows 7/xp looking program

[mossy gull]

Tell that the OC settings which can brick your GPU🙃

[jade scaffold]

You can't brick a gpu with an oc

My 1080ti would know

You can if you are doing super super intense overclocking

Like extreme cooling

[cinder lagoon]

that was, when it actually RAN on XP. You are talking about the Catalyst software.

Catalyst control center and Radeon settings are mutually incompatible.

both achieve everything that could have to do with the graphics driver

[jade scaffold]

No I'm not I'm. Talking about radeon additional settings

It's a toggle in radeon software

[mossy gull]

Which toggle?
For me it was already accessible from the start😐

[jade scaffold]

Question can you force AA onto programmes?

[mossy gull]

Yes

[jade scaffold]

Where

[mossy gull]

I don't know where out of my mind but it's somewhere in the settings 😃

You can let it enhance, override or completely turn it off

[jade scaffold]

It's in adrenalin edition of radeon software

[mossy gull]

It's called Radeon Software these days, it's an all in 1 package

[jade scaffold]

They don't have as many options for things but that's probs just NVidia having more features like the Gsync options and what's not.

[mossy gull]

AMD has FreeSync, Chill or whatever they have these days😃

I use Chill to lock my fps

[jade scaffold]

As well as some options pretaining to CUDA and Tensor which amd don't have to bother with because their cores are just made for raster and lighting

Not all the other weird stuff nvidia try to make theirs do

[mossy gull]

AMD doesn't have a Tensor equivalent yet, and why would you limit the cuda cores if you can just limit the GPU entirely?

[cinder lagoon]

where exactly? I'm intrigued!

[mossy gull]

Same here, for me all settings are easily accessible '

[cinder lagoon]

in Radeon settings you can add additional programs and tell the graphics driver to "extend" or override (also) AA settings.

you can also force it to use morpohological anti-aliasing, which should give a performance boost

[jade scaffold]

They've moved it out of the toggle now into the actual software though I think with certain gpus it might still pop up unsure though

[mossy gull]

And make your game butt ugly😃

[mossy gull]

Maybe only for the RX 5xx series or older

[cinder lagoon]

meh, it's just AA but it detects shapes n stuff. haven't noticed much difference tbh

[mossy gull]

I only tried in modded Fallout 4, which I wouldn't recommend 😃

[jade scaffold]

AA generally isn't great better than looking at a staircase in lowres

[mossy gull]

Why use AA if you can super resolution your game😃

[cinder lagoon]

just put a blur filter over your game and pretend you forgot your glases 🤓

[sonic meadow]

you know we used to just call that AA 😛

[jade scaffold]

The brute force method of running everything in high res tho is only somthing that can really be done with either silly powerfull gpus FSR or DLSS2

[mossy gull]

Why not make everything red and blue and pretend you wear those old 3D glasses😃

[mossy gull]

Nah, I use FSR2 in Destiny 2 while running in 5120x2160 super resolution

I have AA off

[cinder lagoon]

that's not AA, thats aaaAAAAAAAA

[jade scaffold]

FSR is pretty good I think it's biggest advantage over DLSS is its open source

I mean anythings open source if you don't care about the law

[mossy gull]

SDAA

[mossy gull]

XeSS is also pretty good, sadly it doesn't work if it wasn't implemented by the devs

FSR2 is a drag and drop situation.

[jade scaffold]

Yea

[mossy gull]

I like XeSS and FSR because they work on any GPU unlike DLSS

[jade scaffold]

Yea DLSS requires ai accelerators

Which most none nvidia gpus don't have

[mossy gull]

Correction, it needs proprietary AI accelerators

XeSS also needs AI accelerators but still work on all GPUs

[jade scaffold]

No it doesn't

Like fsr it's algorithm based

[cinder lagoon]

nah I think it's trained like the early DLSS 1

[jade scaffold]

Theres actually multiple versions of it apparently

One for intel gpus and one for everyone else

For intel it's ai based

[mossy gull]

FSR is algorithm based and FSR3 should be able to work with AI accelerators, I believe you also can train FSR but I am not sure.

XeSS is both algorithm and pre-trained.

DLSS is solely AI based.

[cinder lagoon]

ahh

[jade scaffold]

For everyone else it just uses the DP4a instruction set it's still an ai kinda thing but it's very light and nowhere near as robust

But luckily pretty much everything since nvidia 10 series supports it

[mossy gull]

I use XeSS in Hogwarts if I play on a small display

[jade scaffold]

But yea on lintels own gpus XeSS is actually very good

On other gpus it's not quite as good

[mossy gull]

It still works which is kinda amazing

Unlike DLSS, which you need certain hardware for.

[jade scaffold]

Yea DLSS super heavily leverages Tensor cores

[mossy gull]

Thing I dislike the most about DLSS is that you need new cards for a newer version DLSS

[jade scaffold]

Now that one is actually stupid

Tensor cores accross all 4 gens sofar all function exactly the same

They just get way more efficient now but functionaly they work the same

Also DLSS3 is crap for games

[cinder lagoon]

that's actually only a software lock. the architecture is the same and the newer ones are just faster at it

[jade scaffold]

It'd work fine for movies is the thing but for games it's just too random to predict propey

DLSS 2 is way better for games

[cinder lagoon]

I'd say "ayo, game devs: if you include video cutscenes in yo games and wanna keep the size low, at least train some AI on that high res verion and let it be upscaled ingame"

Why do they always package like 480p version of some video...

[jade scaffold]

Because funny

[cinder lagoon]

they could probably even stream it or delete it after it's watched

[jade scaffold]

Alot of new games like to do cut scenes in engine as you play which is honestly most of the time I think the best way to do it

Also just to rub some salt into the DLSS wound if you make a program for tensor it will literally work across any of the 4 architectures that have tensor cores

Might not work as well on some but it'll try

It would also probs work with Google ones

[mossy gull]

Still it sucks ass

[mossy gull]

I never really liked dynamic ai scaling tech on larger displays, it's fine on smaller displays.
Maybe I am a bit artifacting sensitive

[jade scaffold]

Depends how intense you set it dlss2 is mostly imperceptible on quality and people unless they cram their fact up against the screen can't tell on ultra quality atall

[mossy gull]

I also see ghosting on all LCD panels no matter how fast they are, so yeah.
Or I use too big of a monitor to hide graphical anomalies

[jade scaffold]

The main way you can tell dlss2 apart from native is DLSS makes for fantastic anti aliasing

[mossy gull]

I just see the artifacting behind/in front of an object with dynamic resolution scaling, I don't know why when other people don't see it'

[cinder lagoon]

That is because all LCD panels have significant ghosting. OLED is faster by a factor of about x1000.

[mossy gull]

I know, which is sad

LCD barely made any advancement in the last 2 decades

[jade scaffold]

Lcd has made loads of advancements

But due to how lcds work you can't really eliminate ghosting

Oleds are great for ghostless images

Not so much for brightness though

[cinder lagoon]

physically turning and twisting material cannot be sped up to infinity because of the mass it has.
OLED differs from this in the fact that the emitted photons have vastly lower masses and therefore are emitted almost instantaneously

[mossy gull]

OLED doesn't need the brightness for the same quality HDR than LCD.

[jade scaffold]

Yea it does

[mossy gull]

I miss plasmas😃

[jade scaffold]

It has way better contrast usually

[mossy gull]

If you think about it, OLED is by standard already HDR😃

[jade scaffold]

Not really

Contrast isn't the only factor

You do actually need good brightness to get the proper hdr experience

[cinder lagoon]

Contrast is a function of colour and brightness.

[mossy gull]

I mean if you have a 2000 nit bright OLED, you don't need HDR to make it HDR, because it already has the contrast.

[jade scaffold]

Dual layer Lcds are the bomb though super good contrast still not near infinate like OLED but not far off and the colour accuracy is just beutifull too bad thoes kinda monitors cost like 5k each also that they are like 2 inch thick can't exactly cram that shit onto laptop which is why OLED is great its super compact as well as being just generally great

[mossy gull]

I saw 1 for sale for 500.- last time, I should've bought it😃

[cinder lagoon]

if the pixels just get bright because they have a strong W-subpixel, the panel will in fact, not have HDR.

[jade scaffold]

Yea hdrs also a software thing

[mossy gull]

What if all the RGB OLED get insanely bright like the S-AMOLED in Samsung phones 🧐

[cinder lagoon]

there are other types of oled than RGB, which is why I wanted to mention it :P

[mossy gull]

I like Dolby-Vision 😃

[jade scaffold]

It's literally the same thing

[cinder lagoon]

I believe Dolby Vision also automatically applies som grading and stuff depending what#s on screen

[jade scaffold]

Well there's like a million hdr standards

[mossy gull]

Dolby Vision is dynamic HDR, while HDR10 is pre-applied HDR.

[jade scaffold]

But the topend hdr standard which for some reason I wanna call HDR ultimate though I'm 90% sure that's not what it's called does the same

[mossy gull]

HDR12 does the same as Vision

[cinder lagoon]

ahhh

goofy ahh naming schemes

[jade scaffold]

The issue again with OLEDs ignoring the many variations of it typically struggles to do over 400 nits

There are other types of OLED which can do like 1200 but thoes are really new and silly expensive they also typically can't maintain that brightness

With time I'm sure they'll figure it out though

[mossy gull]

I lower the brightness of an LCD anyways so I don't see so much light bleed.
The contrast of an OLED makes it feel less bright to me.

[cinder lagoon]

OLEDs in general can be as bright as they want. The problem is keeping them cool enough so they don't immediately burn out. Cooling techniques that can be used inside a display panel are the main innovations of OLED displays.

[jade scaffold]

Straps inch tall chunk of heatsink and a row of 40mm fans ultimate cooling

[cinder lagoon]

basically -

except all that heatsink is embedded somewhere inbetween the pixels

[mossy gull]

LG does this on their C2

[jade scaffold]

The heatsink between pixels approach gets less effective the higher the pixel density

[mossy gull]

That's why LG just uses a single heatsink

[jade scaffold]

The real solution is an absurd number of noctua 40mm

[mossy gull]

Or a giant blower fan

[jade scaffold]

6ft wide blower fan

[mossy gull]

Yep

[jade scaffold]

The carrier is here its even smaller than I thought it would be

its not even one of the proper tiny ones you can get ones even smaller than that

[cinder lagoon]

recommendations for USB A hubs?

need one with 3 ports and another one with at least one xD

[sacred seal]

Unpowered or powered?

[cinder lagoon]

imma go with unpowered.

the ports they are meant to go in are 3.2

[sacred seal]

Hmm, 3.2 hubs. For 3.0 hubs you can pick up fairly well anything, they are a basic enough device that they tend to just work. Powered hubs seem more hit or miss, I have had several die on me. I know nothing about 3.2 hubs though.

[cinder lagoon]

pretty much just want to not limit the system but they are actually intended to just hold license key USBs

[sacred seal]

In that case I would just buy some generic unit then

[mossy gull]

Most 3.2 hubs are just 3.0 hubs after USB Foundation decided to call 3.0 3.2

[cinder lagoon]

the hub controller needs to support the extended speeds for 3.2 tho

[sacred seal]

For licence key USBs?

[cinder lagoon]

• to be a 3.2 hub.

[sacred seal]

Yea, but if all it is doing is acting as a holder for licence key USBs, why does it need the extra speed? 3.0 is fast enough for most applications

[cinder lagoon]

was just stating that this statement is false ^^' I don't need it to be fast, i want it to be tho :P

[sacred seal]

Ah. fair enough. I would look at ORICO, I have had decent luck with there USB stuff in the past

[mossy gull]

Which 3.2?
There's 3.2 gen 1, gen 2 & gen 2×2

[cinder lagoon]

welp, accidentally found some Inateck 3.2Gen2 for 16€

[amber fable]

Ooof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ambaCzFTyo8

[jade scaffold]

intels only advantage with these new Xeons is AI and Performance density

if they had the 13th gen cores as apposed to the 12th gen ones they would atleast not be all too far behind AMD in performance

[cinder lagoon]

you must not forget - the benchmarks show a single socket vs a dual socket

[jade scaffold]

yes

but intel can cram 8 sockets into a system which amd cant do

So as far as performance density goes AMD have no answer to that

[cinder lagoon]

the 8 core server is 4 Units (as far as I saw) tall, AMDs equivalent is the same height

[jade scaffold]

and shockingly did loose in some AI benchmarks which i didnt expect intel to be going into AI all that much really

[cinder lagoon]

the AI accelerators are great, I must admit

but regular computing performance, AMD would probably win in the same power and volume factor

[jade scaffold]

also theres no way the 8 CPU System is going to have to be 4U

i've seen older CPUs that probs dont pull all that much less power be crammed into a 2U

also HBM potential on a CPU i like it

all i want now is a SOC with HBM on it so you can actually call it an SOC because i refuse to allow cache to be all thats needed to fill out the "has RAM" requirement

also this Ebay seller is taking the piss shipping this Jetson NX was meant to be here yesterday

hasnt even been marked as dispatched

[sacred seal]

We are looking at a 270-350 watt tdp. Intels last high core count offering (at least to my knowledge) the Xeon Gold 6314U (32/64) had a tdp of 205, and I think it was limited to a single socket

Cramming 2800 watts of power draw in 2u does not sound very realistic

Well, unless you are running external watercooling

[mossy gull]

How dare you say not realistic

[jade scaffold]

they have some insane dual blade Fans that just push immense ammounts of air

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593040008928296979/1085659963524911224/IMG_20230315_202446.jpg

also

HI

what are you doing on my NVidia Carrier board

[mossy gull]

Raspberry Pi Foundation invaded your life

[jade scaffold]

its a little CPU

its got 2 cores lmao

[sacred seal]

Well if you need some sort of logic to adapt the signal, the pi2 is a fairly decent piece

Cheaper then making an asic

[jade scaffold]

yea i was just surprised to see a company i recognised

[sacred seal]

Or cheaper then developing an asic*

[jade scaffold]

its also addorable

[sacred seal]

Question, can you run linux on your carrier board?

[jade scaffold]

what just on the carrier board no actual Compute module in it

[sacred seal]

Yea

NVM, I am a doorknob

I completely messed up what a carrier board does

For some reason I was thinking adapter

[jade scaffold]

its a 32 bit dual core with a max clock of 133mhz

pretty sure thats shockingly comparable to a DS

it actually might be better than a DS's

DS has a 32 bit dual core with 67mhz clock speed

im am still in awe at how small this thing is

[mossy gull]

That's slower than my Pi 4😐

[sacred seal]

Well yea, its a pi 2b

I would expect it to be slower

[jade scaffold]

yea its not the main processor

its just on the carrier board dont know what its actually doing on the carrier board

actually aparently the same type of processor a pi pico uses aparently

[sonic meadow]

Off band management, akin to ipmi or a IP kvm mahbe

[cinder lagoon]

aaaahhh shit...

USB-C uses the CC (Configuration Channel) Pins also to negotiate the Speed of the connection.
I could only combine a USB 2.0 connection with those DRP boards I'm looking at...

why are there no Laptop-style USB C boards available where you just have an output for the power coming from the cable???

[mossy gull]

Why not take 1 out of a USB C extension cable?

[cinder lagoon]

the Type-C plug doen't just provide power, it first has to negotiate it. This makes it sooo complicated

To be specific: The device I'd be looking for functions exactly like a POE splitter but with USB Type-C and USB-PD.

[mossy gull]

I mean a USB-C extension has 1 female USB-C.
Which you can use for a USB-C input

[cinder lagoon]

????

that has nothing to do with the power delivery splitter I need

[cinder lagoon]

basically this but with proper PD 100W support https://thepihut.com/products/usb-c-data-power-splitter

[mossy gull]

That looks like a simplified small USB-C dock for USB-C laptops.

Like these things
https://www.amazon.de/Adapter-MacBook-Aluminium-Multiport-Compatible-gray/dp/B09MYTJK6J/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?crid=3CPUEQB2QRMIP&keywords=Usb-c+dock&qid=1678962982&sprefix=usb-c+dock%2Caps%2C101&sr=8-8

[cinder lagoon]

kinda, yes. But they only pass on the PD signal as far as I can tell.

kinda like this:
Power supply negotiates with Laptop, Hub sits in the middle, sipping some of the power and HUBbing the USB connection

What I need tho, is this:
Power supply negotiates with controller.
Controller announces dual-role-power and USB 3.2 connection.
Power supply provides requested power type and controller provides your device with said power on a terminal

aswell as:
Controller announces dual-role-power and USB 3.2 connection.
USB stick accepts power provided to controller on a seperate terminal

[cinder lagoon]

basically I need the Laptop side of that Transaction...

I am re-engineering the laptop, as stupid as it sounds...

because laptops don't come with GPIO and serial ports

[mossy gull]

Ah, now I understand, I would just rip 1 out of a broken laptop

[cinder lagoon]

but then, how do you connect it with a working system??
I guess you can pull power from somewhere on that board but how do you do the connection part

[mossy gull]

I don't understand that why people never came up with the idea to give the Pi only USB-C.
It makes things more versatile.

Even desktop motherboards have more and more USB-C

[cinder lagoon]

probably because of the associated development process, I am currently facing 😅

[mossy gull]

😐
Then make it a standard
USB-C is so far superior over what they have now

Soon every PC has USB-C only and then we have dev boards still rocking USB-A 2.0

[cinder lagoon]

yea same

[sonic meadow]

the one big thing that USB-A has over USB-C is simplicity

and for dev-boards, people are more likely to be connecting keyboards, mice (maybe), flash storage, and other potentially old peripherals (industrial equipment?)

[mossy gull]

The disadvantage of a USB-A is it's a Host port, not a slave port.
While a USB-C is a host/slave port.

If people learn how to work with them it becomes as easy as USB-A, but with the advantage of USB-B.

[cinder lagoon]

wait... could this be it? https://www.hp.com/de-de/shop/product.aspx?id=6VF54AA&opt=&sel=ACC&source=google&channel=cpc&adcampaign=OLS-DE-PS-Goo-Pmax-Baseline-LE-Zubehör&addisttype=xpla&kw=&adid=&gclid=CjwKCAjw_MqgBhAGEiwAnYOAev-35BAaGqLDQRo1cPCu_m6patG-pv2nK7gBqjT2YuPOZsRzYHmsPBoCzjkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I can't find other angles gahd damnit

[mossy gull]

That looks like a USB-C internal to USB-C external connector

[cinder lagoon]

...but wiht like logic and stuff... now the question is, does it provide the power from this board or does it just pass through...?

ugghh oof it is a power source, not DRP

[mossy gull]

USB-C needs power for itself

[cinder lagoon]

I AM.......!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

[mossy gull]

For USB-C everything is a pass-through, USB-C is a connector meant to connect almost anything

[cinder lagoon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibEN9FTLdkI

[sonic meadow]

yeah, that was a neat build

I do wonder if you could drive both panels from a single board though.

[mossy gull]

He uses an HDMI splitter I believe, but you can't run them of a single board unless the control board it made that way

[sonic meadow]

I know he used a hdmi splitter (I watched it the other day), but you might be able to split each of the lines from the control board to the panel in two. it all depends on exactly what goes on between the panel and the controller.

[mossy gull]

If even Eizo panels just have 2 LCD panels with both their each control board makes me believe that it's just cheaper to have 2 control boards

[jade scaffold]

There are some display driver boards which can drive multiple panels at the same time

I mean most laptop boards also can but like then that's not just a monitor at that point it's a smart monitor

Or well an all in one desktop

[sonic meadow]

thats more multiple displays, rather than multiple panels

[jade scaffold]

Yea it is but it'd work all the same I thinks

There are some driver boards that can just do one hdmi input into 2 outputs though

[mossy gull]

Laptops with multiple displays run straight of the GPU, they don't really need a control board.
Just the LCD board

[sonic meadow]

the "control"/driver board is attached to the panel in those cases

something like this might work: https://www.twscreen.com/otherproduct/12422

[jade scaffold]

Or its built arround where the ribbon cable attaches to the main board depends on the form factor of the laptop really

[sonic meadow]

laptop lcd panels can be purchased with the cable/connector in different places

[jade scaffold]

Yea

[sonic meadow]

there are a few placement "standards" for it

[jade scaffold]

Also I saw a jetson carrier with 2 hdmi ribbon connectors

So if you wanted your funky screen to also be a smart device you absolutly could would also probs be a good way to give it a Web cam too

[sonic meadow]

multiple outputs arent uncommon for sbc and sbc dev boards

[jade scaffold]

Yea

[sonic meadow]

including multiple different ribbon cable interfaces (edp, lvds, etc)

[jade scaffold]

Think I'm gonna try make use of the csi camera ports it has maybe see if I can get some ai powered room scale full body tracking

[mossy gull]

I have opened like 200+ laptops, all are directly attached to the main-board, the only difference is the LCD motherboard.
Aka the board straight onto the panel.

[sonic meadow]

the cable from the laptop mainboard to the panel is functionally the same as a dispalyport or hdmi cable. just different form factor

[cinder lagoon]

..hence, eDP (embedded DisplayPort)

[sonic meadow]

yarp

[jade scaffold]

Same think just thiiiiin

I like thinn cables too bad they're usually so fragile

[spiral hedge]

anyone here understand electron and ever worked with it been trying to figure out some stuff for the #1077537871382196314 and having something with that knowledge weighing in their apinion would be usefull

[cinder lagoon]

ayyyooo steam just added network caching

16 March - Steam Client Update Released
A new Steam client has been released and will be automatically downloaded.

Local Network Game Transfers
Added new feature that allows Steam users to copy existing Steam game installation and update files from one PC to another over a local area network, without having to download and install from a Steam content server on the internet. This reduces internet traffic and can speed up installs or updates.
Steam users have control over who files can be sent to: self only, friends only, or everyone. The default setting is self only.
More info about this new feature can be found here

[jade scaffold]

awesome

[cinder lagoon]

...welp, there goes BetterDiscords theme feature...

[jade scaffold]

Nah its gonna stick arround custom themes will be way better than that

[cinder lagoon]

yes they will but it's gonna cost discord money so they will probably adjust ToS to forbid themes to the extent they have implemented them

so Top bar + background image I'd guess.

[jade scaffold]

Tos already forbids them

[cinder lagoon]

hmm oop

[jade scaffold]

Yea you aren't allowed to mod your discord client

[amber fable]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8en_FtA80

Apparently the latest intel memory controller is running right at the edge of what it can do.

[jade scaffold]

yea

that seems about right

luckilly unlike AMD Intel CPUs dont benefit enormously from memory speed in typical usecases though i could see this being an issue in some edge cases

[jade scaffold]

Getting some fukin funky behaviour from my server

Pressing the power button causes the psu to turn on and spin up the heatpipes on its cooler get hot but the servers fans don't spin and the server don't turn on

[jade scaffold]

fixed it

[balmy flicker]

so how would I go about getting my joystick to work in DRG for the lolz

[amber fable]

Quick and possibly stupid question: Do I dare get open back headphones? Specifically, will my AT2020 pick them up?

I have, up to now, run ATH m40x headphones, which are excellent, but I'm tired of the damn hinges breaking. I'm considering the Bayer Dynamic DT 770 or DT 990 (990 is the 770, but open back)

I have never used open back headphones before, but if I can keep the mic from being an issue I am strongly considering them.

Right now I have just enough audio delay that I don't like to monitor myself, so I can't really hear myself talk. I'm used to it at this point so it isn't an issue, but open backs not blocking so much sound would be welcome. However I don't want to add more filtering to my audio if I don't have to, so if the mic will pick them up I'm not overly enthused.

[sonic meadow]

My experience with the at2020 is that it will pick up your neighbour breathing loudly

[amber fable]

Well, yes. Noise gate fixed that though. So I guess what I'm asking is if it will be a problem that the existing noise gate won't fix.

As a side note, I need to find a better way to filter audio than OBS, as it introduces a relative lot of lag.

[sonic meadow]

If your noise gate is set up okay then I don't think it will be a problem. My issue is that mine picks up my keyboard at a similar enough level to me speaking, so a noise gate ain't doing shit 😦

[amber fable]

Thankfully I don't have that issue.

[sonic meadow]

You could try hanging your current headphones around your neck (so the cups are exposed) and seeing how the mic picks them up. It won't be exactly the same as open backs, but could give you an idea

[amber fable]

Hmmm. Good idea.

[cinder lagoon]

👏🏽 Directional 👏🏽 Microphones 👏🏽 👏🏽

Tbf directional mics won't help with open back headphones

[jade scaffold]

My mic doesn't pic up my lcd-2s unless a really turn them up for things like discord and what's not the ecco suppression is really good so even if your mic does pic them up its unlikely in a voice call to cause any issues in my experience

Do remember that everyone arround you can hear what you are listening to and you can hear everything arround you they will block out no sound

The dt770s according to my friend are very good so I would assume the 990s would be just as good though I'm pretty sure there isn't a 80 ohm version of the 990s which means you might need an amp to drive them

That honestly depends on how good the audio chipset is on your mobo

[amber fable]

There is an 80ohm version, which my Scarlett solo should be able to drive fine (250ohm is a little more than they can handle)

Supposedly the ZMF oval cowhide pads I'm using on the M40Xes will fit ok on 990s, which is good because I kinda love these pads.

Testing shows that the mic does pick up my headphones if I just let them hang around my neck cups facing forward, but the existing noise gate kills it dead when I'm not actively talking. Even when I'm not talking it is hardly audible. So I think I'll be ok considering that A) That is more forward throw than should actually be the case and B) it will be a "far away" version of what is already going out over stream so it should just disappear into the background.

I then spent all night completely reworking my audio filtering so it isn't done in OBS anymore. Good news: Latency is down! And the filters apply nicely to everything that uses my mic without the weird hack I was using before (so Discord gets my mic after rnoise, a noise gate, a bit of EQ, and the compressor get done with it).

It is now 8am on a work day, and zero sleep has been had. Why do I do these things to myself?

Right now the left ear on the M40Xes are being held on purely by friction. As long as I don't take them off they stay together. Good thing Amazon delivers tomorrow, they only need to hang together one more day

[jade scaffold]

The 770s and 990s are quite well built so they should last a good bit of time

I need to buy new pads for my lcd 2s because I've caught my nails on the pads when throwing them on and off and with me wearing them atleast 16hrs a day the pads are starting to deteriorat a bit

[amber fable]

Half the time I sleep with mine on, so 20+ hours a day. Good pads are required

[jade scaffold]

You could not sleep with lcd-2s on the dt990s maybe but my lcd 2s are waaay too big

I mean the drivers on them are 100mm drivers they are huge

[sacred seal]

My brother runs open back with AT2020, has not had an issue with blead through

[mossy gull]

A good audio interface can filter out a lot of noise

[mossy gull]

500Hz and still ghosting on LCD, and no perceptible ghosting on OLED, this is why I love OLED.

https://youtu.be/Ewo8tt6bgZU

[mossy gull]

BE AWARE
Diablo 4 Beta can cause NVidia GPUs to blow up in a few cutscenes.
Especially RTX 3080Ti from Gigabyte.
And currently Gigabyte won't RMA them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/11tzj1w/diablo_4_just_bricked_my_3080_ti/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
https://youtu.be/or7njUlYTLI

[sacred seal]

Was it 3080 or 3090s that were exploding last time?

[mossy gull]

EVGA 3090 non Kingpin cards mostly.

But this time it seems to be more widespread of cards, just mostly Gigabyte 3080Ti

[mossy gull]

I feel bad for the people who got the card, knowing Gigabyte's lack of proper insensitive it'll be hard to get a new GPU.

[sacred seal]

I'm fairly sure the other vendors are just as bad. I don't think EVGA was offering RMAs right out of the gate ither

[mossy gull]

But Gigabyte is the kinda company that blames users for a PSU that blows up.
And if there's an hardware failure, even if it's diagnosed, Gigabyte tends to not replace it like Asus and EVGA do.

[sacred seal]

I agree that Gigabyte is worse then the others, but the others are not great ither

If the others start offering RMAs, gigabyte will most likely as well

Its very common for vendors to not offer RMAs for wierd out of spec issues

At least until there is some public attention and blame has been established

Asus are no saints. If you are out of your RMA window, you have to pay money to even talk to a tech

[mossy gull]

Tell that to the Gigabyte PSU debacle which people just saw at a loss because they couldn't get replacements from Gigabyte.

[mossy gull]

We don't have that here, customer service is always easily reachable here without paying them.

[sacred seal]

Well that is how they behave in the majority of the world

[sacred seal]

This is a different type of issue PR wise. PSUs could fail, but the reports were sporatic. Yes the PSUs were shitty, but very few (percentage wise) were actually failing. Hence why I specified that they would do it only if the other vendors did it first

And there is a big difference between bieng able to talk to customer service and bieng able to talk to a tech

CS cant give you an estimate as to what a repair will cost

Or if they can even repair it at all

[mossy gull]

I personally had most problems with Gigabyte and MSI.
I literally had to threaten them with a public customer protection service in my area in order for them to replace a product, which in my book is far from good.

With EVGA, Asus, Lenovo, HP, oddly enough Dell(which in most countries is hot garbage) I never had any problems, all they wanted to know is why I asked for an RMA and the serial number, usually they give a brand new component if they found the product to be faulty.

Dell and MS are for me the biggest outliers, for their systems I can ask them for a component, and I cross-ship the broken 1 back to them or I can throw it away if it's something really small.

I rarely see Asus components passing by, people here think Asus and Acer are the same, and Acer has a really bad name here, basically for ignoring customers.
EVGA, well, we barely get their components here, would love to see their boards and PSUs here as well.

[sacred seal]

The only company I have had issues with RMAing something within the RMA period was with viewsonic. For the others I just had to fill out a form and they sent me a label to ship it with.

Its what they do when you get weird issues that is the problem.

Or if they are out of warrenty

I have never had cause to contact MSI out of warranty, but gigabyte at least gave me a free quote

[mossy gull]

MSI tends to "repair" products in my area, but they do such a bad job that you can do it again in less than 3 months, and then they charge money.
Which I am not happy with, so I usually ask for a new product, which they aren't happy with but I ain't gonna pay for their bad repair job.

Gigabyte, well, it's really a 80/20 they won't even repair it because on their side it "works fine" yet my warranty is gone, and asking for a new product is literally almost making them face public execution.

We don't have Viewsonic, but we have Huawei displays, and uhm, we don't even have customer service for them, it's non-existent thanks to everyone in the west blaming them for spying, they're so unpopular that nobody buys them😅

BenQ, well, they're here known to break right after warranty expires.
I think if it comes to displays here.
Samsung and Eizo are on-par, they quickly replace the display in less than a week of sending it up no questions asked.

[sonic meadow]

luckily where I am from we dont need support from the manufacturer. local law basically guarantees that we are able to go through the retailer for stuff like that. at least for private purchases (businesses have no such protections)

[mossy gull]

Here it really varies per company.
We have a few good companies but they don't offer shop warranty.

And usually I repair PCs from other people so it's easier to mail the manufacturer directly, I also can do warranty checks from most manufacturers.

Most people here buy stuff from resellers because they're cheap, which I absolutely dislike as it takes way way too long for the seller to respond because everything happens through the resellers as well.

[sonic meadow]

and something like a graphics card dying because of a game would likely be covered. there is a clause in the law that basically as requiring a product be "fit for purpose". which afaik covers user-expected use-case, not manufacturer-expected use case

[sacred seal]

You in aus?

[sonic meadow]

NZ, so basically the same as their law. a few differences though

[sacred seal]

Ah

I think yours might be a bit better. I bought some software while in aus, and a update caused the software to stop working on my machine. They refused to refund me

[sonic meadow]

aus has some explicit numbers about minimum expected lifespan that ours doesnt.

software can be a bit weird around this stuff

it is funny reading through eula/licenses for things and seeing the clause at the end that basically says "except where it contradicts the nz consumer guarantees act"

[sacred seal]

The software in question was not Australian, but I bought the license while in Australia with Australian dollars, I think that should qualify as sold in australia

Wasn't it australia that made steam offer refunds?

[sonic meadow]

yup

[mossy gull]

It should be covered, if a manufacturer actually covers it is up to them.

[sacred seal]

I would think it would be debateable if it was covered. You kill your card mining its not going to be covered

[sonic meadow]

and if they try that I go to whoever it is that manages the CGA, and then it gets covered

[sacred seal]

And what is mining other then running weird software on a GPU

[mossy gull]

But if you run Chrome and for some reason it kills your GPU because of a fault in Chrome's Hardware Encoding software.
You didn't kill your GPU on purpose, but many manufacturers treat it as such.

To be honest, in my opinion if for example a game destroys your GPU, the game devs should pay for a new 1, but hey, this is an ideal world situation 😅

[sonic meadow]

well all you would see is that your card doesnt work. you were doing stuff, it died, and now you have an expensive block of silicon, fibreglass, and aluminium

[sacred seal]

Your intent is not normally considered when talking about this kind of stuff in law. I think google would be more liable then the GPU manufacturer

[mossy gull]

They are, but rarely care, because they ain't paying for new hardware, instead they send you to your part's manufacturer and they have to deal with the problems another company caused.

[sacred seal]

From a manufacturers perspective, they have sold millions of GPUs that are running a bajillion different games. If cards start dying at random and its not obviously a fault of the manufavtuer, I can see why they are not covering it

With the EVGA cards and new world, it was a faulty solder joint

[sonic meadow]

the nature of volume manufacturing means that sometimes things slip past QA/QC going out the door. that is where the majority of "random dying" comes from

[sacred seal]

Sorry, not dying at random. Dying due to a random game*

[sonic meadow]

and I would probably wager that something like 100% (rounded) of cards that get RMA'd get no more forensic analysis than being plugged in to a test bench and seeing if it works, at least to tell if a replacement is warranted

[sacred seal]

If youtubers can pin down why exactly the game is causing GPUs to die, and it is a harware fault, then I can see them offering RMAs

When AMDs 580s were killing old motherboards, I think it was AMD that was on the hook, not the vendors

[sonic meadow]

tech youtubers have a habit of jumping to rapid conclusions from single odd posts that someone made, then trying to justify that

then actual evidence and investigation happens

[sacred seal]

Some do. That is why I don't trust Jay for news

GN is fairly good about that

[sonic meadow]

he was one of the ones I was referring to 😆

even steve/gn can be a bit quick to talk about things at times

[mossy gull]

Still, even then a game shouldn't destroy the GPU or any component for that matter, no matter how weak a solder joined can be.
The fact that New World had the menus run in uncapped fps + EVGA not having the time thanks to NVidia to make proper drivers.

[sacred seal]

LTT and paul are also not great, but I think they put there foot in mouth less often then jay

It was mostly EVGA's cards, and only from thier first batch which had a known issue with the solder connection. Deffinatly seems like it was out of spec

[mossy gull]

Trust me, only 10% gets checked if it works properly.
All they do is when having a batch is check the 1st few and then call an entire batch successful.

[sonic meadow]

LTT is more a tech-content entertainment channel these days, rather than a tech channel

[sacred seal]

These days? How long ago has it been since they were a proper tech channel

[sonic meadow]

precisely. though I would expect that even 10% is high

at least for some companies

[sacred seal]

5+ years

[mossy gull]

You know how you can test a GPU if it works fine, have a very early build of FH3 and run it on the GPU, FH3 had a problem where loading screens ran at uncapped fps, yet it didn't kill GPUs.

[sonic meadow]

LTT definitely has tech knowledgable people, even Linus himself. except they often dont have the time internally (espeically linus) to really dig in to something at the level that they deserve before making a video

[sacred seal]

There is tech knowledgeable, then there is knowing what you are doing. The number of times they have screwed up benchmarks is remarkable

[sonic meadow]

a game having an uncapped framerate like that is entirely on the dev's/etc, but the card being killed by it is usually some combination of card and chip vendor, though the ratio for that depends heavily on where the board design provenance

[sacred seal]

Lets see if we can overload a 2tb drive SLC cache on a qlc drive by writing basically 2 tbs to it and wonder why it does not have a performance drop. Mabey because the card has been writing it cache to the storage while the transfer was happening?

Or the ASUS overclocking feasco where there benchmarks were higher then everyone elses and they claimed it was because there Asus board was just a better board. Turns out the board was auto overclocking a bit

[sonic meadow]

its no yelling at hard drives, thats for sure 😆

[sacred seal]

And when they found out this they did not fix the review

Jay may talk out of his ass, but he at least generally has the decency to correct his info. LTT rarely if ever does so

[sonic meadow]

jay is very much an enthusiast builder with a large platform

[sacred seal]

Yea, I think that is an accurate assessment. As an enthusiast he actually cares about what he is talking about, even if he does not quite understand it.

[sonic meadow]

and that was where he started out, he was the water cooling guy on youtube

[mossy gull]

Still, a game should know not to run on 10k fps.
And even if it does the driver should step in an limit the amount of max fps.

A driver can make or break a component.

[sacred seal]

Problem is, what is a frame?

And how is it different from a frame of animation?

[sonic meadow]

yes, that was the first point I made then

[sacred seal]

The GPU just knows its doing something

It does not really know what that something is

[sonic meadow]

eh, why should the driver step in? there are use cases for having what seems like it would be stupid high frame rates. like offline rendering for example

[mossy gull]

It's something very very odd.
For example Warframe does something very weird with its frames on what I noticed so far only on NVidia cards, which I am sensitive to.
Like I literally get a headache from that game even when standing still, yet with most other games I have no problems.

[sonic meadow]

and what is a field?

[mossy gull]

Just a normal level without enemies

[mossy gull]

https://youtu.be/km3MVZ8HZeY

[mossy gull]

https://youtu.be/yGXaAWbzl5A

[amber fable]

This is why it is really important that it be easy to invalidate all sessions with a single action. A nice "log out all" button in the account settings for example..

[mossy gull]

You keep the session data and passwords and shite.
You have to wipe all browser data in order to make it impossible to retrieve anything.

[amber fable]

No, something like this:
https://myaccount.google.com/security (look under "your devices")

Or the "Devices" page under "User Settings" in this very app.

Someone gets into your account, you can change the password and invalidate all sessions and boom. They are out.

A few services go even farther and have a one-step "panic button" that logs out all sessions (including your current one), and locks out the account from further logins without direct human intervention from their version of customer support.

Generally for the kinds of account that have something that fancy you won't have much trouble proving you are the real you via a side channel to get your account unlocked and reset.

[mossy gull]

But they needed to send an infected email 1st

That's where it started

[cinder lagoon]

Uuhhmm I think Win11 has a new sleep mode or something

[mossy gull]

I don't use W11, I absolutely dislike the start menu

[cinder lagoon]

Just Pushed the power button of my PC and it went from s5 or s4 to login screen in like 1.5s

I don't use hibernate or energy saver

[mossy gull]

That's just standby, if you wait longer it can go in hibernation

[cinder lagoon]

S5 is soft off.
Fans were off, power was supplied to USB devices (I disabled power delivery in S5)

[mossy gull]

I absolutely hate Windows Modernn't Standby

[cinder lagoon]

According to Event viewer It went from S1 to S3 because of idle in (login screen)

[jade scaffold]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593040008928296979/1088843757417410712/IMG_20230324_151554.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593040008928296979/1088845958583943248/IMG_20230324_152433_edit_212663361176924.jpg

Finally here its so smoll

[cinder lagoon]

Noice

[barren juniper]

stupid question but if i have an m.2 drive and its nvme sata wont work/wont be advised?

[sacred seal]

I am guessing you are talking about the PCer warning?

[barren juniper]

okay so whats going on here is my old computer died, i have another computer which i was given for free that came with a dead harddrive but it has a m.2 slot on it. i used the old m.2 drive from the dead computer, but the drive is a 2230, and only 256Gb, while the slot is for 2280 only, so i was wondering if i could get a sata drive because https://www.amazon.com/dp/B098T4JG95/ref=twister_B0BKFYNJN3?_encoding=UTF8&th=1 is only 100$ for 2 Tb

also since this has not only a 2.5 inch bay but a cd drive as well, thinking about maybe turning it into a server

[sacred seal]

M.2 consists of 2 physical standards, M and B+M

I think M is NVME only and B+M is sata

[barren juniper]

so its sata

okay

yeah its a b and m key

i wasnt sure if it was sata or gen 3

[sacred seal]

Do you know the model of the 256gb drive?

[barren juniper]

i had it written down somewhere

might show up in the computer

[sacred seal]

You can technically get it from the PC, but its a bit of a pain.

Sata M.2 are kinda rare, just want to sanity check

[barren juniper]

the computer it came from was a dell inspiron 7386 with the quad core i5 and 8 gb of ram with the 1080p screen

[sacred seal]

K, that works

Looked up the specs. If the 256gb fits in the new PC (other then the fact its too short), its a nvme slot, not sata

The 7386 has 2 m.2 slots, both are nvme

[barren juniper]

yeah i used the 7386 drive in the "new" computer

[sacred seal]

Well, that is good news then. NVMEs are faster, and are often cheaper then there sata counterparts

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/2vVmP6/intel-670p-2-tb-m2-2280-nvme-solid-state-drive-ssdpeknu020tzx1

[barren juniper]

https://www.amazon.com/Generic-HFM256GDGTNG-Desktop-Ultrabook-Compatible/dp/B09G9ZVF5K/ref=sr_1_2?crid=RF3KG5L14HUO&keywords=bc501+nvme+sk+hynix+256gb&qid=1679896732&s=pc&sprefix=bc501+nvme+sk+hynix+256gb%2Ccomputers%2C57&sr=1-2

[sacred seal]

If you are just doing general work, this is a fairly decent drive

[barren juniper]

its this one

i have it in this computer now

[sacred seal]

Wierd that it has both the B and M keys, but it is nvme

[barren juniper]

its even weirder i think that both computers have it

this one is a 17 inch hp "granny" computer

everything is plastic

track pad, 900p screen

came with a 1 tb hard drive which died which is why i got it for free

[sacred seal]

The slots in the PC should not have notches for both the B and M key... The reason we have the keying is so you don't accedentally plug a PCIe device into a sata port

It is physicallty impossible to plug a M keyed card into a B+M slot

But you can plug a B+M into a M keyed slot

I don't think it will work, but you can do it

[barren juniper]

well it works now because im on this computer currently

[sacred seal]

Sorry, yes, it will work if it is NVME

[barren juniper]

its a gen 3x4 drive in it now, the 256 2230

[sacred seal]

Its just that NVME are normally only M keyed

[barren juniper]

yeah i dunno

laptops i guess

single stick of ram and hard drive

worst track pad and screen ive seen in 10 years

[sacred seal]

But yea, if you are looking for a new drive, 660/670p, p3/p5 are both good general purpose drives

And you can likely find at least one of them for under 100

[barren juniper]

next i need to figure out how "universal" cd/dvd/rw drives are and see if I can get a 2.5 inch caddy to fit in it

[sacred seal]

CD drives tend to be fairly standard, but there are some wierd ones out there

[barren juniper]

https://www.amazon.com/Highfine-Universal-SSD-HDD-Enclosures/dp/B01MRI8YFN/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=hard+drive+caddy&qid=1679895068&sr=8-4 looks about right

[sacred seal]

If the CD drive that currently exists has the push button to open tray thingy, I would give it 99%odds that that will be compatible

[barren juniper]

yeah it does

[sacred seal]

Taking it out could be fun, some of those older laptops are absolutly cursed

[barren juniper]

shame its not a square as at 127mm x 127mm, if it took up that whole volume you could fit 2 in there since 127mm is 5 inches

nah its already out

i had to take it out to open it up

to rip out the hard drive

and put in the ssd that i already had

[sacred seal]

Hopefully you did not need to remove the keyboard?

[barren juniper]

since theres no 2230 screw its just "hanging" in there

yeah the top popped off from the bottom

only broke one clip this time

an improvement

[sacred seal]

So not too bad. I would use some electrical tape to "secure" the drive

[barren juniper]

once i get the second ram stick and ssd ill put the screws back in it as theres like 30 of them

or maybe the 7386 will fix it self again, or maybe i just need a new wifi card

who knows with that thing

ive been through 3 batteries, 3 charging ports, like 6 chargers

almost, or maybe did, catch fire once

[sacred seal]

Batteries and chargers I get. Charging port?

[barren juniper]

first one broke

second time i thought i broke it again as i was having same issues

turns out something in the power delivery got fried

45 watt charger which im now using for this hp as dell and hp share a plug

eventually i gave up with it and just put it on the 100 watt charger for my new laptop

[sacred seal]

How does one break a charging port? Those tend to be rather robust.

[barren juniper]

dell

being dell?

i have no idea

[sacred seal]

Fair

[barren juniper]

then i tried charging it with the hp charger that came with the hp that im now using and the charger broke off in the port because the hp plug is slightly longer than the dell

eventually i figured out that i could charge it off usbc

so i just used the charger for my flow x13 that i wasnt using since i have the xg mobile to charge it

if you are wondering how that happened

i have a cat

that cat is the reason why i no longer have any wireless things, whether it be headphones or mice or keyboards

since i have a phone with the port, i dont need earbuds as those would disappear too, nor do i need a dingus dongle

[sacred seal]

Normally its the opposite. The cat is the reason why you only have wireless things

[barren juniper]

well the earbuds i know for a fact he would try to eat

or would disappear under my desk

at least with the wires they are still attached to the computer

[sacred seal]

In my case I have cats that like to eat wires

[barren juniper]

oh he does that too

https://www.amazon.com/Internal-2-5SATAIII-Laptop-Tablet-Desktop/dp/B0BXP49T6C/ref=sr_1_28?keywords=sata%2Bssd&qid=1679897734&s=pc&sr=1-28&th=1 thoughts for the 2.5 inch drives?

[sacred seal]

Unbranded drives are rather sketch

More expensive, but this is the cheapest I would go for a boot drive

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/nF8j4D/crucial-mx500-2tb-25-solid-state-drive-ct2000mx500ssd1

[barren juniper]

its not the boot drive, its the drive going in the cd drive caddy

[sacred seal]

You could go down to something like this then https://pcpartpicker.com/product/3RKKHx/team-ax2-2-tb-25-solid-state-drive-t253a3002t0c101

[barren juniper]

6 tb total all ssd under 300 not bad

(1 m.2 plus the 2.5 bay where the stock hard drive was plus the cd drive with the caddy)

i dont think this thing has another m.2 in it

[sacred seal]

Yea, that unbranded is super ketch. Says its SLC which is basically unheard of, super expensive.

The fact its branded similar to WD drives as well does not bode well

[barren juniper]

yeah i noticed that part, thought it was odd

shame the 4tb are so much more expensive, i guess i could get one 2tb now which would be 4tb total as theres only one at amazon ( i dont have new egg account and the shipping price would make up the difference) and wait for the 4tb to fall in price

[sacred seal]

4TB NVME or Sata

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/JhzhP6/crucial-p3-4-tb-m2-2280-nvme-solid-state-drive-ct4000p3ssd8

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/p7nypg/crucial-mx500-4-tb-25-solid-state-drive-ct4000mx500ssd1

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/9k3mP6/samsung-870-qvo-4-tb-25-solid-state-drive-mz-77q4t0bam

[barren juniper]

huh, the ones i was looking at were 600 plus

[sacred seal]

PCer is a fairly good site for finding parts quickly

[barren juniper]

well thats 4 TB total now, and if I ever run out of space i can get another 2,5 inch drive

guess ill be back once they get here

thanks for the help

[sacred seal]

No worries

[barren juniper]

maybe even try raid, not that i really would need it

[sacred seal]

I woulden't, its more pain then its worth most of the time

[barren juniper]

unlesss my parents want me to store family photos and the like, maybe ill raid 2 of the drives together, but doubt it

[sacred seal]

And putting mixed drives in an array is generally not the best idea

[barren juniper]

if i were to do that i would just get another of the 2 tb team group 2,5 inch drives

[cinder lagoon]

I did that with 2TB hdds - recommended but not with mix+match SSDs - SSDs are totally overkill for that

[barren juniper]

yeah at first i was looking at maybe getting a mobile hard drive but 2 tb for 65 dollars for a wd blue vs like 90 or so for a brand name ssd.

[cinder lagoon]

Yea - mobile hard drives only SSD. Everything else is gonna break

[barren juniper]

well it looks like my mom fell for the 16Tb external ssd thing

as apparently that is still a thing

[mossy gull]

Too many still fall for it

[cinder lagoon]

yup

[cinder lagoon]

https://youtu.be/RYf2ykaUlvc

[jade scaffold]

very interesting video

[turbid cave]

So. My flight sim Rig is almost done. Waiting on a USB hub. I need to upgrade the hotas and pedals, but these will work for now.

[balmy flicker]

semi related note do you have an issue with double presses on that key bord?

[turbid cave]

I haven't used it in a while, but no. I remember it working great. I only replaced it because I was considering a shift to a full Corsair ecosystem on my new rig, and the better half had just doused their previous keyboard in soda.

[amber fable]

I need to upgrade the hotas and pedals
Understatement of the year.

[balmy flicker]

hmm might have to clean mine and see if that helps

[signal star]

Anyone looking to sell a Tobii 5?

[mossy gull]

IMPORTANT:
If you're building a new PC watch out for fake products, even on known websites.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-china-fake-gpu-sting

[mossy gull]

https://youtube.com/shorts/2r6v9GpIEuI?feature=share
Keycapcap

[cinder lagoon]

📣 BEHOLD, THE KEY CAP ᴄᴀᴘ 📣

[deft star]

steam is going to stop working on win 7/8/8.1 as of January 1, 2024
https://help.steampowered.com/de/faqs/view/4784-4F2B-1321-800A

[surreal moss]

Yep

[mossy gull]

People have to understand that using a legacy OS actually is dangerous unless it's disconnected from the Internet

[deft star]

the point is that it will refuse to work, not that they wont make any updates for older windows versions

[cinder lagoon]

Hmm. True, seems a bit aggressive... even tho there is literally no point at using Win8.

[cerulean helm]

Its because the Steam client relies on an imbedded version of google chrome that will no longer function on the older OS. And Steam moving forward will require security functions that are only on Windows 10 and 11.

So it has nothing to do with Valve being an ass or whatever.

[deft star]

and now imagine a person with a win 7 pc that only plays some very old games

[cerulean helm]

But nobody should be using Win 7, 8, 8.1 while connected to the internet at all. Win 7 security updates ended in 2020, and Win 8.1 ended in January this year. Its extremely dangerous to even connect those devices to the internet.

Reread what I wrote above...

Steam uses an imbedded version of google chrome that WILL NOT work with older OS anymore.

The actual Steam Client process in the task manager.

So, I guess to complain to Google then.

[deft star]

Its extremely dangerous to even connect those devices to the internet.
Thats just pure nonsense.

[cerulean helm]

No its not. And you are being purposely obtuse.

Win 7 launched in 2009. And 10 launched in 2015. You had 5 years of time to freely update. If you didn't, thats on you.

And the last security update for 7 was in 2020. So 3 years of no security updates.

Don't go spreading bad information about using obsolete OS while connected to the internet.

[deft star]

There is more to it then "just be connected". And as I said, thats NOT THE POINT

[cerulean helm]

Your point is you are whining about Valve not supporting outdated unsecure OS anymore because programmers have moved on and don't support it thus forcing other programs that use Chrome for example to ditch support.

Your argument is pointless.

[deft star]

whining? holy shit, wtf are u tralking about. IM informing

fucking drama queen over here

[cerulean helm]

Dude.... You are making shit up and spreading bad/dangerous tech advise.
I'm done with this nonsense.

[deft star]

im spreading bad advice, says the dude saying this "Its extremely dangerous to even connect those devices to the internet."

u dont have a clue how things work.

[cerulean helm]

Cause it is. The OS hasn't has a security update in 3 years, then there is all the programs that haven't been updated cause they won't work afterwords (cause the OS isn't supported anymore).

With that, I'm done. Walking away. Feel free to rant more, I won't respond.

[cinder lagoon]

There actually isnt. There are multiple malwares and categories of it that do not need you to download anything malicious. Your computer can just get pinged/receive certain data streams from the internet and execute code form within without any user input. Just like that a system has become compromised and could infect other computers on the network.

[cerulean helm]

Exactly, thank you.

To further the Steam thing. Google Chrome ended support for Win7 on Jan 15th this year. So, anyone that uses Chrome extensions or imbedded Chrome browsers has to end support, period.

And on programs itself:
Edge ended support for 7 and 8 on Jan 10th, Firefox ended in Feb. Meaning the 3 biggest web browsers no longer receive any security updates making them extremely vulnerable.

[mossy gull]

This happened in my family because 1 person didn't want to move away from Vista, we had to reinstall multiple PCs and even buy a new modem.

It's scary how a virus or malware can just appear out of nowhere just because it's basically stowing away inside a data stream.

[deft star]

Your computer can just get pinged/receive certain data streams from the internet and execute code form within without any user input.
show me one example for that

[deft star]

"out of nowhere" or did that person visit a shady website, downloaded/opened email attachments, etc?

[jade scaffold]

infact theres several Processor level Exploits that can be used from the internet and all someone needs is an IP address something very easy to attain

[sacred seal]

Its not common, but there are a number of vulnerabilities that have been exploited to load and run code onto a PC remotely. I believe wanacry did this to some extent

[jade scaffold]

there are some really really nasty exploits if someone can actually get connected to your network

honestly if you are running W7 willingly because "its the best version of windows" or what ever the fuck W7 enthusiasts say

adtitionally if a W7 machine gets hacked or what ever and a steam password gets released thats extra work for valve which they'd rather not have to deal with simple solution brick steam on Windows 7 which no matter how you look at it is an Unsafe OS to run

[sacred seal]

That said having a out of date PC on a network is not much of a threat, generally speaking. Yes it can get infected, but by and large it does not pose a threat to other machines on the network.

Unless those machines are also running an out of date OS

[jade scaffold]

yes but there is the possibility of using a compromised machine depending on the level of control an attacker has to be able to send stuff to other computers or maybe edit the router/network settings depending on how secured that is

[sacred seal]

Ironically I was in a situation where one of the newer PCs was targeted by some ransomware, took out all the PCs running windows 10 but the ones running 7 were fine

[cerulean helm]

I mean there is a solution for those who for whatever reason still use Win 7 and Steam. Disconnect the pc from the internet and run Steam in offline mode. Boom, play your installed games.

[jade scaffold]

yea that'd work

though you do have to every now and again relog into steam which might be an issue

only 3.7% of Desktop computers run W7 anyway so like its probs only grandmas and shit using it

[inland dove]

I have a friend still using Win 7.

[sacred seal]

Most people who have a machine runing an out of date OS on a network probably don't have anything on that network that would justify the resources to have a human look and see if there is additional attack vectors.
If you have a router that has a generic username and password they could take over that, but other then changing your DNS settings to spy on you that is probably not going to do them much good.

[jade scaffold]

yea its a low chance of an attack tbf

but honestly i don't atall see an issue with valve cancelling support for a Old OS not running any modern features and lacking in all the modern security features anyway

this at most effects 3.7% of windows desktops

of which very few are gonna be running steam

[deft star]

its not about support. the news is about it stopping to work

[jade scaffold]

no point in investing large amounts of money supporting a Dying player base

[sacred seal]

There is a difference between not supporting an OS and disabling the functionality of the software

[jade scaffold]

you know shockingly steams a webapp

and kinda needs thoes chrome features to work atall

[sacred seal]

If my understanding what steam is doing is correct, they are intending to actively ship and update that bricks the install

[jade scaffold]

its design also makes it very easy to make work with modern systems with relatively little fucking around

[deft star]

exactly

[cerulean helm]

Don't bother, already explained to him Steam Client uses an imbedded Chrome browser of which Chrome stopped supporting Win7/8 in Jan.

[sacred seal]

And that is reason to actively break the install?

[deft star]

u didnt explain anything. u just copy pasted from the article

[jade scaffold]

Windows 7 makes up 0.05% of the steam player base which isnt worth spending the money to maintain

[sacred seal]

I have no issues with steam just not supporting it. What I do find problematic is steam actively sabotaging it.

[jade scaffold]

pretty much yea because if they didnt they'd have to run legacy servers which is expensive for literally 0 profit for valve

[cerulean helm]

Cause Valve should have to spend time and money to recode something that no longer supports an outdated OS that very, very few Steam users use?

[jade scaffold]

even if steam didn't brick the install
the install would just cease to actually function regardless and just probably crash outright

[sacred seal]

Eventually, yes, the install would likely die

[jade scaffold]

as it would be trying to pull on functions not available to it

there are more Linux users on steam than W7 users there are more MacOS users than W7 users

[sacred seal]

Put it this way. You play a MMO, and they take the serves down. Does the company have the right to force you to uninstall the client?

[jade scaffold]

its effecting practically no one and thoes who it is effecting really needed to update anyway

[jade scaffold]

yea they probably do

that would probs be in the TOS

and even if it wasnt the games not going to even work anyway

so you're gonna just uninstall it yourself

[sacred seal]

How many people run modded installs on custom servers?

[jade scaffold]

for what

[sacred seal]

MMOs

[jade scaffold]

not all that many
and thats not even close to the same thing in the slightest

[sacred seal]

There are a number of MMOs that have died and been revived by some modded software

[jade scaffold]

you cant run your own steam client servers

[sacred seal]

In a sense it is. Its controlling access to what you do with your software on your PC.

I'm pointing out there is a difference between not supporting something and actively disabling it

It costs steam nothing to not ship an update

[cerulean helm]

So Shadow, are you suggesting that Valve should just keep Steam available to the few who use win 7 despite the fact that the imbedded browser will no longer function correctly which will break the UI?

Lets be real, the moment Steam glitches out for them they will go online and start complaining at Valve.

[sacred seal]

And they wont complain that steam refuses to start?

[jade scaffold]

whats going to happen if valve dont disable steam on W7 is the following:

1. Steam on W7 Crashes is buggy and unstable
2. the few players who use W7 report in saying "Steams not workin on W7"
3. people informing them Steam cant work with W7 anymore

as such to skip all that shit Push a lil update that disables the client and pops up a message saying W7 is no longer supported by Steam

if steam stop supporting W7 you are aware the Authentication servers wont be able to connect to it right like it'll be bricked regardless even if they didnt ship an update out to it regardless it dies and stays dead

[jade scaffold]

less so because they will have been informed that its not supported

and to use steam in offline mode you need to first log in, in online mode which as you imagine if the authentication servers dont work for W7 is gonna be a real fucking challenge

[sacred seal]

If steam stopped supporting windows 7 steam would default to offline mode

And remain that way

[jade scaffold]

it wouldnt tho

[sacred seal]

Big difference between refusing to start

[jade scaffold]

it would ask for a relog in

[sacred seal]

No, if my internet dies steam auto switches to offline mode

[jade scaffold]

you need to tell steam to go into offline mode while its online

you cant use steam without an internet connection unless you have already logged in

if my internet goes down and i restart my pc it doesnt let me back into steam untill the internet is back
if my internet goes down while steam is open then it defaults to offline mode

if the PC EVER restarted it would not let a user in perma offline mode back into steam

[sacred seal]

Yes, you need to have been logged in to steam to go into offline mode. The two senerios are as such
Steam stops suporting windows 7, eventually steam will no longer be able to connect and go into offline mode
Steam actively disables support for windows 7, any PC still connected to the internet will be no longer able to run steam

[cerulean helm]

Looks like GOG also ended Win 7 support before Steam did.. Gee, almost like its not worth supporting an obsolete OS.

[jade scaffold]

yes both lead to the same outcome within a week

so they may as well send an update that tells them why their steam isnt working rather than just kill the authentication servers and leave them wondering why the fucks my steam not working

[sacred seal]

Uhh, I have run my PC without internet for a couple of weeks, steam can stay offline mode indeffinitally

[jade scaffold]

not if you restart it it cant

[sacred seal]

Yes you can

[jade scaffold]

what wack ass version of steam do you have

regardless anyway

the UI would be bricked pretty much

Windows 7 is a platform that NEEDs to die

[sacred seal]

Why would the UI brick? Steam is running in offline mode

Things don't brick unless they are changed

Office 2000 is not recieving any new updates

Still runs fine on windows 11

[jade scaffold]

most of the UI is web based the only thing that would work is Library which i guess is all you'd need

[sacred seal]

Well mabey not fine, but mostly fine

[jade scaffold]

but none of your games will update

[sacred seal]

Yea, thats a given

[jade scaffold]

so you'll be stuck on old versions of games for ever pretty much

[sacred seal]

If steam is not actively supported you are not going to be able to get new games or whatnot

[jade scaffold]

on a system with security flaws that could allow for account breaches

[sacred seal]

The difference is it will still work

If the user wants to live with the issues that come up, its on the user

[jade scaffold]

the issue with big companies like steam is they handle personal information if some dumbass gets his account yoinked steam leagally have to deal with that

[sacred seal]

They can update there windows if it becomes to big of a pain

[jade scaffold]

yea

exactly they can

so just kill it completely for W7

boom gaping security flaws that W7 has no longer an issue

[sacred seal]

Say I need windows 7 to run other software?

[jade scaffold]

you dont

you literally do not

and if you do

VM

VMs are a 5 min job to learn how to set up

[cerulean helm]

Look at it this way. Steam is basically a web browser tied to an account that contains a ton of software licenses. Why wouldn't they not want people trying to run it on a unsupported OS?

[sacred seal]

WIndows is a platform with millions of users. Why wouldent they want to collect peoples data?
Its not a question of what is good for steam. Its a question of whether companies should have the right to disable stuff that they no longer support.
Do we want companies in the future bieng able to brick your car because you do not want to update your infotainment center?

[deft star]

some people actually do. for software or hardware reasons

[jade scaffold]

if its for hardware reasons you arent going to be able to run anything even as complex as minecraft

if its for software reasons you're just a dumbass

[sacred seal]

Its for external hardware

With drivers that only work on older OSs

[jade scaffold]

VMs

[deft star]

hardware is more then ur cpu and gpu.....

[jade scaffold]

the only thing i can think of that would need W7 is crappy old flight setups and racing setups

[sacred seal]

VMs work, but they are a massive pain to get configurd with the kind of exotic hardware that you sometimes encounter. USB passthrough is not enough

[jade scaffold]

ok so tip use W10 for games use W7 for what ever wacky shit you are trying to do

dual boot is a thing

[sacred seal]

Yes, you can work around it. QUestion is why does the consumer have to be the one to fix the problem that the company created

Again, should a company be able to brick your car because you do not want to update your infotainment software

[jade scaffold]

because if the consumer wants to do weird shit they can

if it comes at the cost of their convenience so be it

[sacred seal]

You are conflating not supporting something with actively disabling it

[jade scaffold]

such an update effects so few people that if they disappeared off the face of the earth today not a word would be uttered

[sacred seal]

Since when does the number of people something affects be the barromiter of whether or not something is ethical?

[jade scaffold]

if they cancel support they have to spend shit tonnes of time explaining to people who dont know what happened why whats happened has happened

[sacred seal]

They have to spend the same amount of resources explaining that they disabled it

[jade scaffold]

its blatantly inefficient and AGAIN Poses security risks

[cerulean helm]

They did the same thing for Vista and XP in 2019 for the exact same reason they are ending Win 7 and 8 support now.

[jade scaffold]

no they wouldnt

[sacred seal]

I believe they only ended support on those platforms

They did not disable the client

[jade scaffold]

no they killed the client

it doesnt work

[sacred seal]

Well then I have the same concerns there as well

[jade scaffold]

i dont