I am not a fan of having two different circles going on there.
#Bobby, a new voice assistant and Snowy successor
karmic lion
wooden wedge
yeah
karmic lion
Or two big things on different sides in general.
urban solstice
where does this sit in terms of palatability
karmic lion
(I am also not sure what problem any of the multi-arc/line variations were solving)
wooden wedge
I mean, I'm not mad at it, it looks nice
karmic lion
I guess this is fine but I feel it draws too much attention to a distinction nobody will really understand
The bobby label positioning is fairly subtle
Big pink circle will make people ask why there is sometimes, but not always, a big pink circle
edgy flame
here is a different thought
it gets us colors, it gets us text contrast, icons, widgets, it looks fine. it loses us circles and peeks
wooden wedge
I mean, if we don't have peeks we might as well do an arc
karmic lion
Why is the icon not at the top now? So it can be there after you scroll?
edgy flame
this does feel much more natural
edgy flame
Why is the icon not at the top now? So it can be there after you scroll?
oh, let me try this
karmic lion
I guess because we had the peeks before
This is going around in circles
Very literally we are just spinning around the screen
wooden wedge
we have not gone to the right yet
karmic lion
That follows after top
wooden wedge
oh, true
urban solstice
we haven't tried 45 degree variations...
wooden wedge
yeah, we need to scroll at an angle
we could use the accelerometer to change the scrolling direction
edgy flame
this is getting somewhere!
it's also much closer to the conversation stream on rect
this feels like one big stream of thought and not like a million little separate thoughts
wooden wedge
what happens if a thing is split into two screens?
edgy flame
then it just gets paginated, but keeps its color on the side
wooden wedge
I also feel like a lot of the screen real estate is lost
edgy flame
with peeks we had zero screen real estate anyway
karmic lion
I don't think Bobby needs an icon at this point
edgy flame
i really like the bar on the side. i feel it gives the layout a point to ground itself to, which is something the peek layout was missing
karmic lion
I guess it needs an icon because now the layout for an action confirmation is exactly the same as the layout for text
karmic lion
I think I preferred the original version
edgy flame
karmic lion
Surely the top one should have green at the bottom
Though the line is, confusingly, not actually linear
edgy flame
twas a thought. i don't think i like the segmented line
wooden wedge
edgy flame
I think I preferred the original version
noted
i don't think multiple icons on the left works
i also don't like that 'you' icon in context
wooden wedge
yeah, that doesn't look very good
edgy flame
do you want just edit access to the - you probably have edit access to the same figma
it's in drafts on the rebble organization
edgy flame
hmm
wooden wedge
I do wish it was easier to indicate this somehow
wooden wedge
I was thinking about this earlier with round one in pie chart context
but yeah, it's not that simple
edgy flame
different widget
barren raptor
Something about DST seems to confuse bobby - I have told it to set a reminder for 16, it says it set a reminder for 16 yet the widget says 17
wooden wedge
honestly this is fine, I would probably still experiment with an arc instead and have the icon on the coloured part, but otherwise it seems fine
barren raptor
which did it actually set it for? i guess we'll find out once the clocks change
edgy flame
hm
edgy flame
Something about DST seems to confuse bobby - I have told it to set a reminder fo...
can you report the conversation? either hold select on the conversation screen or ask the model to do so
wooden wedge
hm
does Bobby need an icon here or would an arrow down with a coloured background also work?
and just a circle around status bar
edgy flame
i don't love making it look just like a notification
edgy flame
does Bobby need an icon here or would an arrow down with a coloured background a...
hmm
trying this
this is what notifications do
just a colorful pip at the bottom
edgy flame
i do not think they are
edgy flame
there is one thing i havent considered at all here, which is to remove the clock from the statusbar and use that space for more indicators
wooden wedge
I don't think it really helps
barren raptor
can you report the conversation? either hold select on the conversation screen o...
done
(it didn't hear me quite right but the gist still stands)
to be very clear, the story here is that the clocks change today in my country (in about 10 minutes, actually)
wooden wedge
well, in all of europe
barren raptor
So I'm assuming that something somewhere is noticing that and adjusting the timestamps, but then other things don't know that they've been adjusted
wooden wedge
it's eu dst
edgy flame
i am done for the night, i have new books
i don't know if we've gotten anywhere but we've learned things
barren raptor
...oh my god dst confuses pebbleos too
When I view the future timeline it thinks it's the timeline for 29 march "yesterday"
edgy flame
that's probably what did it, if sometimes the model is writing times and sometimes the app is writing times
barren raptor
now that DST has occured i can confirm that the pebble is no longer confused but also that it did in fact write the wrong times
wooden wedge
do you want just edit access to the - you probably *have* edit access to the sam...
I don't seem to have that
edgy flame
urghh
wooden wedge
my thoughts exactly
edgy flame
you and freakified are both supposed to have edit access to everything, that's what the admin dashboard says, but i think Figma has Streamlined everything to where you can't have edit access without having a full paid editor seat
wooden wedge
I don't even see I'm a part of any team tbh
edgy flame
huh
there should be a thing at the top left of your files page, under your account, where you can switch what team you're looking at
can you show me?
wait no i don't think you were in the rebble team actually
I've clicked "approve edit request" in my email, try now
wooden wedge
this entire experience is so weird
edgy flame
hell, okay, i guess upgrading our figma plan means that now nobody can ever have edit access without paying $16 a month for it
that's really frustrating
wooden wedge
I wish figma had some better alternatives
I am also really bad at using it, so that's fun
this is what I was thinking yesterday
I have too much love for circles
edgy flame
the thing i like about the flat line is that it makes it feel like you're scrolling a continuous stream
it has the same effect as scrolling timeline
the circles break it up into individual chunks again
though they look really good
karmic lion
now that DST has occured i can confirm that the pebble is no longer confused but...
I think the problem is that pebble doesn't give me a real timezone name, so all time-related work is done using your UTC offset. But nothing knows when your UTC offset will change.
wooden wedge
maybe the amount of screen taken up by the circle could depend on the presence of icon
it doesn't have to be that large always
karmic lion
The confirmation generated by the app does have correct timezone information, so that gets adjusted, but nothing generated on the server is correct.
wooden wedge
the thing i like about the flat line is that it makes it feel like you're scroll...
I wish there was some allowance for animations
because I think if you do a rotating circle animation on the side, you could make it look like a stream
that does get into the failed idea of lines on the side though
that makes me wonder, how does the watch draw all of those curves?
edgy flame
i dunno i don't think I'm a believer in left circle
wooden wedge
pdc with beziers?
wooden wedge
using draw commands?
edgy flame
yeah
wooden wedge
that seems inefficient
edgy flame
no bezier but yes circle
wooden wedge
it can do beziers too
edgy flame
can read the code
wooden wedge
that's true
karmic lion
IIRC it can also draw partial arcs so I might guess it doesn't draw the entire circle
(though I very vaguely recall that drawing circles is actually more performant than drawing arcs)
karmic lion
That caltrain example that comes up occasionally exposed exciting bugs because when it was first written it would only partially render
Because it actually took longer than a frame to draw the circles in it and apparently at the time if you missed the deadline you just got what was done.
In that context you can't really tell it's slow because there are no animations, but be wary of circular performance.
karmic lion
Makes sense
wooden wedge
i dunno i don't think I'm a believer in left circle
I don't think I can convert you, I just think it's neat
karmic lion
Between the big thing on the left and the space left for the dot on the right we are getting quite close to just using a rectangle for the actual content
A chunk is currently reserved from the top, left, right, and bottom
wooden wedge
it does kinda seem that no matter what we do we end up with a square side
I have one more idea actually
widgets with icons would have a rounded side to accomodate an icon
it would be straight otherwise
karmic lion
What does the weather widget do?
karmic lion
Three!
wooden wedge
three
karmic lion
Two are fairly similar though
wooden wedge
it might take over the entire screen
I think a line turning into a circle from the side kinda animation could be nice for that too
I mean, really to give that illusion you would just move a circle of the same color as the line from outside the screen onto the screen
I don't think anything more complex is necessary
karmic lion
You say that but doing this requires throwing away the concept of these all being on a scroll layer and instead doing bespoke screen switching everywhere
The animation is simple but being in a position to do them seems less so
edgy flame
yeah
wooden wedge
well, it could also be an animation of the center of the circle getting closer while the radius gets smaller to make the illusion of the upper and lower points being static while the middle expands out into the middle
it's like blowing the line on the left into a balloon
edgy flame
What does the weather widget do?
the best thought I've had was to fit the current weather widgets inside rectangular bounds and just show them
Bobby's weather widgets are very good as is, i don't feel the need to mess with them
wooden wedge
You say that but doing this requires throwing away the concept of these all bein...
that was kinda my assumption as to what is required to do any of them
karmic lion
This is generally true. Except for always line on the left, I guess
wooden wedge
that still seems like it would require pages
karmic lion
Scroll layers have a paginated mode
wooden wedge
that does make it easier
karmic lion
Since otherwise doing any sort of scrolling on round is a disaster
Suddenly realising that bobby's text height shortcut probably assumes it's rectangular. And not having wild pagination things happen
That's fun
It actually might not assume either of those things
The FormattedTextLayer probably also makes this assumption
Sigh
wooden wedge
round support sounds hard from every perspective
edgy flame
this was overall the reason i assumed you wouldn't want to do bobby on round :p
chilly moat
as someone just scrolling through this discussion for the first time now, the far left is my favourite
if that's helpful
wooden wedge
feedback is always helpful
I feel like maybe with the line the widgets should always be full sceeen, since that does let you do big icons which feel more appropriate on the round
edgy flame
i like big icons in general on pebble
wooden wedge
yeah
we did specifically design small icons for this app!
which seems antithetical
to the goal of big icons
edgy flame
ive been playing the long con of making everything in bobby really big
wooden wedge
I still would like the main conversation stuff to be high contrast white/black somehow
I do like the line on the side even if I wish it was a circle somehow
rain plinth
Does the time always show 12:34? I've been using this for a couple weeks, am I just now realizing this?
wooden wedge
I did a quick debug of bobby in the emulator, the reason why the websocket doesn't work is SSLError on this line https://github.com/pebble-dev/pypkjs/blob/master/pypkjs/javascript/ws.py#L117
I wonder if it uses ancient certificates or something
bypassing that error by disabling ssl requirement doesn't help much
which I feel like I should have known
covert ingot
Does this help? #hackathon-002 message
wooden wedge
nope, still getting sslerror
wooden wedge
that being said, I might be doing something wrong, because I can't fetch quota either
rain plinth
it always shows the current time for me
Hmm it seems to be working as expected again, but I did see in all the round mockups above the time was 12:34. Maybe my app got stuck in some default mode. It was still working mostly as intended, but I missed a reminder and then checked the time and it was way off. But my device time outside the app was correct. Oh well, I'll see if it happens again
karmic lion
I have seen that just show 12:34 instead of the actual time, though I've not had a chance to look into why.
It wouldn't affect any functionality, though.
karmic lion
This thread is an adventure: https://www.reddit.com/r/pebble/comments/1jn84ii/turns_out_you_can_just_ask_bobby_for_its_prompt/
Runs the spectrum from "that's very cool" to "large language models are a sin and nothing useful could ever be built with them"
And also one guy who specifically really hates Gemini models and says this in every place Bobby shows up
sick apex
it's funny, it feels like the Pebble subreddit is the outer exterior to a hidden speakeasy or something
the tonal difference is sharp
the subreddit has a bunch of normal, if bland posts, but it's the front for the Discord server where all the interesting stuff happens
urban solstice
And also one guy who specifically really hates Gemini models and says this in ev...
Awww, a fan!
silver vale
Is there a reason the Github repo has issues disabled? I wanted to suggest support for self hosted LLMs via Ollama
edgy flame
hmm - Bobby as a rebble product just works, with very little setup, and we'd like to keep it that way, but I encourage you to fork the project and add support yourself!
sounds like it could be cool. would you want to host the backend for Bobby as well, or just the llm?
silver vale
Just the LLM. Mostly just privacy and ethical concerns.
Alright, I might do that.
karmic lion
Is there a reason the Github repo has issues disabled? I wanted to suggest suppo...
I wasn't aware it did
But also I have no interest in that feature
coarse cedar
You can fork it, but be aware that Bobby uses the Google GenAI library so you'd need to rewrite quite a bit
karmic lion
It now has issues, unclear how that was disabled
I will also continue to specifically push back on the privacy concerns, given that a) you are not Google's customer, and also b) Google is contractually obliged not to do anything with the data.
rough cliff
It now has issues, unclear how that was disabled
Forks have issues disabled by default. Weird GitHub thing. You can technically "leave the fork network" if you want it to be a standalone repo (that is, if you never want any connection to Katharine/tiny-assistant ever again) in the repo settings, so you won't have weird GitHub fork limitations
Though this may interfere with some licensing things? Probably not but I'm not sure if being a fork has anything to do with this
silver vale
Ah okay if that is not a desired feature, I'll consider making a fork.
I strongly do not trust Google to oblige by the contract since they have absolutely no incentive to do so and you have no way to proof they do not use the user data for training. It is highly unlikely IMO that they do not use that data.
Now whether this concerns me enough to fork the project rather than just use it is another question, I probably don't care enough, but we'll see
where can I find the privacy policy of Bobby / Rebble?
ah found it, but it says "Last updated 2021", does it cover Bobby?
wooden wedge
there's an added blurb about google processing in bobby itself https://github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/blob/main/app/resources/text/legal.txt
sick apex
I strongly do not trust Google to oblige by the contract since they have absolut...
I believe the incentive is that Rebble pays slightly more for each API call in order for them to not use it for training
citation needed but I could've sworn I heard one of the rebblers mentioning that
karmic lion
I strongly do not trust Google to oblige by the contract since they have absolut...
Google has a massive incentive to obey their contract and I find it incredibly unlikely that they do not
They have a forty billion dollar cloud business, of which this is part, wholly dependent on the concept that they do not inspect the content of the workloads they're running
It would be completely insane and open them up to a huge array of wild lawsuits
It would also be illegal in the EU to use the data for training
There's also minimal benefit to them doing so - Google gets plenty of query data from search, Gemini-the-product, Google Assistant, etc. - and that data actually has meaningful feedback, unlike wholly opaque enterprise API usage.
karmic lion
I believe the incentive is that Rebble pays slightly more for each API call in o...
We pay slightly more so they can't use dictation data. Paying at all means they can't use the LLM data (there is an unpaid tier where they can).
Of course, since Rebble runs on GCP, if you believe they inspect the Gemini data they are legally and contractually obliged not to use, you should also assume that they are (illegally) using all data sent to Rebble for similar purposes.
silver vale
For me it's really more a matter of principle, I understand this all and know you act in good faith, and I'll probably even just use Bobby as is.
I just like always having a way out of big cloud services if possible, that doesn't mean I don't use them.
But yeah I would advice adjusting your privacy policy to be clear about what Bobby does if you don't want to get into legal trouble in the EU, I doubt that small disclaimer is really enough. But I'm no lawyer.
karmic lion
The disclaimer is not very subtle, you have to consent when you launch the app
silver vale
I didn't, the consent showed but then the app closed before I could read the rest. Next launch it didn't show it.
karmic lion
That should not be possible
Unless you saved the settings in the mobile app and were also using one of the releases that crashed when you did that
Which would both override the consent flag and also dismiss it
silver vale
I just saw it because it installed on my watch, I saw the screen but then I was in the app settings on my phone checking the settings. When I looked back on my watch I was in the launcher.
silver vale
Unless you saved the settings in the mobile app and were also using one of the r...
Ah yeah I was doing that
silver vale
Unless you saved the settings in the mobile app and were also using one of the r...
But I was doing this earlier today, so I installed it today.
karmic lion
The 1.1 release should not crash when you save settings
silver vale
But again it's not a bit deal, I understand and consent to what I'm using, even if I'm not entirely sure what legal entity actually processes my data here, but it's Rebble right?
karmic lion
Honestly I am sort of annoyed the settings show up at all, I need to reconcile that with the on-watch behaviour of asking the same questions
silver vale
The app is officially by Rebble?
karmic lion
It's the Rebble Foundation
silver vale
But yeah with all that aside, great work on the app, it's really cool! And it actually got me motivated to looking into making my own apps that capture that Pebble look and feel. It's just so cozy.
karmic lion
Anyway I will fix it so that the consents are not skipped if you save the settings and then also quit the app; this is unintentional
chilly moat
selfhosting an LLM seems like a huge waste to me, i don't understand why i see so many people doing it
of all the things you could pick to selfhost why would you pick the most resource intensive one
silver vale
It's not really that hard, you just need a server or PC with a somewhat modern GPU in it
for some usecases you don't even need that much
for what Bobby needs even just a CPU run model is good
chilly moat
i'd be personally more interested in a simpler NLP-based backend, an LLM seems overkill when you just want to set reminders. but i guess that would be something entirely different than bobby
karmic lion
I think running Bobby on a CPU is dubiously viable
coarse cedar
honestly I can see bobby running with one of the new gemma 3 models
karmic lion
Gemini 2.0 Flash is generally assumed to be a ~40 billion parameter model, which is not tiny, and I don't think I'd particularly enjoy the results of using a less capable model
weary ether
I think your choice of Gemini 2.0 Flash is Very Safe for a few different reasons
coarse cedar
its just a great model price wise
weary ether
and I think using a Google model looks good
for lack of a better way to say it
brand loyalty if you will
'hey thanks for letting this super valuable software out of the cage and approving my awesome AI-on-wrist app and don't worry because it uses Gemini'
just my outside take
karmic lion
The number one reason it uses Gemini is to get it approved for release in the first place
weary ether
there you have it
karmic lion
Previously it used gpt-3.5-turbo (in 2023)
weary ether
also, RWS is GCloud?
karmic lion
Yes
weary ether
so, that makes things 'easier' I would guess
karmic lion
It can do, but Bobby accesses Gemini via AI Studio instead of via Vertex AI, so it doesn't get the integration benefits
weary ether
gotcha
karmic lion
If you look at the (new) asr, or the audio-debug-mode, they have no credentials or even allowance for providing credentials
They are just magically authenticated
coarse cedar
thats actually really cool
karmic lion
(the actual underlying mechanism is that there is a GCP service account with relevant access, and then a kubernetes service account bound to that GCP service account, and then the pod runs under that service account. so GCP grants the pod access to the relevant resources, and only those resources)
weary ether
I'm sure whenever I look at Bobby it's like I'm looking at the top of the iceberg
sounds like a sophisticated setup
chilly moat
The number one reason it uses Gemini is to get it approved for release in the fi...
by who?
karmic lion
by Google
there's a reason that Bobby has Copyright 2025 Google LLC at the top of every file 😄
chilly moat
oh lol
weary ether
I'm glad Bobby saw the light of day but I lament that Big Tech Corps "own" everything an employee does
karmic lion
such is life
weary ether
I respect that attitude
karmic lion
Technically, due to restrictions under California law, they only own things I make that are relevant to their current or reasonably forseeable lines of business
chilly moat
i die a little inside whenever i sign a new employment contract
karmic lion
this was useful when I worked at Pebble, which had a very small set of current or forseeable lines of business
it is not at all helpful at Google
coarse cedar
Technically, due to restrictions under California law, they only own things I ma...
so that means uh
everything rebble related
karmic lion
yes
everything I do for Rebble is actually done by Google
or, at least, owned by Google
weary ether
frickin' Google
karmic lion
Google explicitly disclaims my actions
chilly moat
Technically, due to restrictions under California law, they only own things I ma...
this clause is common elsewhere i think
karmic lion
(see the disclaimer at the bottom of bobby's readme for further detail)
coarse cedar
at least the google rebblers got pebbleos open sourced
karmic lion
this clause is common elsewhere i think
California is one of only two US states with that restriction
in any other US state they own everything without restriction
coarse cedar
I am still so thankful for that, yall are the best!
karmic lion
(I forget what the other state is)
chilly moat
yeah i assume it's not done for legal reasons i just see it a lot
karmic lion
Every contract I've ever signed went the other way and just said "we own everything", then had a little note about "except as required by california law"
coarse cedar
well it doesnt really work for google because they do like almost everything
chilly moat
the legend i've heard is that those types of clauses only became common after steve wozniak used equipment from his job at HP to design the apple 1
no idea if that's true
karmic lion
well it doesnt really work for google because they do like almost everything
Not at all
Google gives me two options: I can ask them to waive their interest, or I can ask them to let me release it as open source
I've done the former a few times and it's actually the easier path, but they'll refuse if it sounds like a thing they make
chilly moat
years ago i used to see github repos under the google org with a disclaimer to the effect of "this is not an official google project, but was made by a google employee"
do they still do that
karmic lion
Yes
silver vale
Rebble services are US based?
coarse cedar
yes I think so
silver vale
I didn't really think about that before, I don't know if I feel comfortable with that, but what can you do.
Well I guess it doesn't really matter all too much
is it correct then that Google and Rebble have to provide backdoor access to the data if asked by the US government?
well I guess I sound a bit paranoic here but I generally just try to avoid any of my data entering the US if at all possible these days
and yes this is hypocritical beeing on Discord, but I have no other option, since the Pebble development happens here
fervent steppe
as a member of the Board of Directors of the Rebble Foundation, I will say that we will comply with any lawful request from a government that has jurisdiction over us
rough cliff
I personally think the extremely limited set of data Rebble actually has about you will not be interesting at all to the U.S. Government. Unsure how knowing what watchfaces you have will help solve hypothetical crime
Also, if they want data about you, let's just say you have bigger problems 😄
valid shadow
I am in love with Bobby, really impressive work
sage laurel
Just subscribed to Rebble to try this out 🙂
Since Katharine mentioned trying to add various integrations with mixed success #1345564272289120296 message
It'd be awesome if Bobby could behave as an MCP client so folks can plug in whatever external tools they want. IIUC the new streamable HTTP transport supports remote connections, so I think you can configure an MCP server with just a URL that could be provided from the app settings, e.g. Cline supports this .
sage laurel
Does the time always show 12:34? I've been using this for a couple weeks, am I j...
Seeing this on my end too, sometimes gets stuck at 12:34 sometimes not (e.g. here are two pebbles showing different time). Happened right after initial setup on the 2nd pebble.
edgy flame
what if we got rid of the peek and just had a tiny content indicator triangle on each screen
each individual widget would feel much less cramped
wooden wedge
that's kinda what I was thinking
but then you are missing out on animations!!!
(I'm just joking, I don't think it matters all that much)
edgy flame
we can still have animations!
karmic lion
Seeing this on my end too, sometimes gets stuck at 12:34 sometimes not (e.g. her...
Oh, I wonder whether the override on the speech bubble is also disabling the time. That seems likely.
wooden wedge
Seeing this on my end too, sometimes gets stuck at 12:34 sometimes not (e.g. her...
you should clean those buttons
also maybe the default time should be intentionally incorrect
like 43:21
34:56
I would have suggested 00:00, but that's actual time in 24h clock, or 88:88, since that's a default on 7 segment displays, but that has a meaning of its own, which is not great
karmic lion
sigh
looking at Google's API pricing because the OpenStreetMap POI data is Not Great, and $0.035 per search request feels infeasible on a $2/month budget.
generally I want to avoid risking people actually hitting the quota limit
the inevitable endpoint of this feels like adding more tiers to the rebble subscription entirely to fund bobby quota points. which is an exercise I don't particularly want to undertake.
hollow rivet
looking at Google's API pricing because the OpenStreetMap POI data is Not Great,...
$0.035 is like an average of 57 requests a day, doen't seem too bad, considering most people likely won't use it all thta often? The if the POI data's not great then that's a separate issue I guess 🤷
karmic lion
57 requests per month
karmic lion
assuming the only thing you do is fetch POI data
hollow rivet
Oh yeah that 2 dollars is also for the rest of the services too?
karmic lion
all bobby usage is budgeted at $2/user/month
when you have caused us to spend $2 on you, you get locked out for the rest of the month
anyway I have returned from my holiday and can now look at this
though I'm still on holiday, just now physically at home
and I am still inclined to not spend too much time writing software for the time being
south edge
karmic lion
but that's the 12:34 bug
for some reason my IDE no longer knows about any standard C functions
karmic lion
and that fixes a) the ability to skip consents by saving in the app config page, and also b) crashing when you save in the config page while the consents are visible
also, performing the migration from the old consent storage to the new consent storage is the first time that keeping track of the previous version has paid off
so now I am glad I bothered to keep track
void consent_migrate() {
if (version_is_updated() && !version_is_first_launch()) {
// If we're updating from version 1.1 or older, consent agreement was implied by LOCATION_ENABLED being set
// (either true or false).
if (version_info_compare(version_get_last_launch(), (VersionInfo) {1, 1}) <= 0) {
APP_LOG(APP_LOG_LEVEL_INFO, "Performing consent migration from version 1.1.");
// If the location enabled state is set, that's equivalent to consent agreement version 1.
if (persist_exists(PERSIST_KEY_LOCATION_ENABLED)) {
persist_write_int(PERSIST_KEY_CONSENTS_COMPLETED, 1);
}
}
}
}
also for Reasons, my Android app is currently running watch app version 1.2 against JS version 0.26
so don't assume those get updated in lockstep I guess
rough cliff
looking at Google's API pricing because the OpenStreetMap POI data is Not Great,...
Is Mapbox data any better? Their pricing is pretty aggressive IMO and they have a generous free tier
I am not sure of pricing per request though.
Possibly Yelp too
karmic lion
Is Mapbox data any better? Their pricing is pretty aggressive IMO and they have ...
Mapbox data is exactly the same - their data source is OSM.
(In fact we are using it)
I am actually not entirely sure what value Mapbox is providing me in exchange for the money we pay them
but it's a small enough amount of money that I am not particularly fussed about it.
(in fact it's zero because we will probably never break the free tier)
We've had a few reports of mapbox (and thus presumably its backing source, OSM) being very wrong, though
I'm sort of leaning towards Google, because cheap incorrect data is not very useful
acoustic wolf
I wonder if Gemini itself can access weather data
coarse cedar
Have you considered Foursquare Places? https://location.foursquare.com/products/places/
Wait they only have "Contact us" pricing
karmic lion
I did consider it when I was looking for reviews but it wasn't better
I also am not clear on what their data source is given foursquare is not very alive these days
It looks like their free dataset doesn't have opening hours, which is arguably the most useful property for bobby-type questions
("is the Safeway open?")
OSM has them but apparently not very accurately.
Google charges Enterprise pricing for that data, which works out at $35/1000 requests
though on the plus side for that price I do also get a star rating and a bunch of other data mapbox doesn't have
The last time I went digging the general consensus seemed to be that Google is the only entity with a good POI database. Maybe Yelp, but their pricing is similar if not worse anyway.
rough cliff
Mapbox data is exactly the same - their data source is OSM.
Ah. I couldn't recall if they did some of their own stuff. That sucks
It seems Google and Yelp have the best data, and well, they know and it reflects in their pricing.
karmic lion
Creating and maintaining a POI database sounds like a wild activity to try to undertake
alas.
celest pulsar
it feels like the kind of project that is doomed unless you can motivate a major percentage of venue owners to not only enter their data themselves (or pay someone to do it for them) but also keep that data updated
karmic lion
indeed
Though even that doesn't work well enough
Which is why Google has wild projects like "regularly phone every business that exists and check what their hours are"
celest pulsar
it feels like leveraging location data would be a lot easier for at least the businesses that tend to have more than 3 customers at a time
but they're already doing that, of course
celest pulsar
Which is why Google has wild projects like "regularly phone every business that ...
that kinda makes me wonder whether they use aibots for that (thinking back to a certain i/o where ai calls were pitched to customers)...or whether business relations are too valuable to automate that contact
coarse cedar
I remember that demo
karmic lion
(for that matter the automated AI calls they pitched at I/O also actually shipped, but it's pretty rare to get into the state where google offers to do it)
you need to be asking it to make you an appointment at a business that does not have a website
and the business is of a supported type
celest pulsar
that does seem rare
using the website is probably a lot cheaper resourcewise
and possibly less error prone
karmic lion
the results from google maps are much nicer
but the pricing remains insane.
or at least insane while constrained to a $2/month budget.
maybe I'll try it anyway
people probably don't do that many location queries
in fact I should have data on this
celest pulsar
you could add a premium tier for...high volume users
unless that complicates things too much
karmic lion
then I have to touch Rebble's billing code 😦
it is a scary place
the actual number of location queries, across all users over the last month, fits in the free tier.
(which is 1,000 queries)
celest pulsar
that's encouraging
karmic lion
I could go the wild and wacky route and charge zero quota credits until the monthly limit is exceeded
which is sort of weird because it makes quota usage for a single user dependent on the global usage of bobby
celest pulsar
tragedy of the commons incoming
well, not really. people's life doesn't get arbitrarily better the more location queries they send
karmic lion
well it might if they have many location-related problems
I think I will actually do this
karmic lion
oh
karmic lion
time to do some incomprehensible Cloud Stuff
karmic lion
I have done some incomprehensible Cloud Stuff
Bobby now uses Google Maps to fetch POI data
let me know whether it's better or worse
Google Maps uses a significant chunk of your quota (about 2% per invocation), but only once the global free limit is exhausted.
weary ether
Google Maps uses a significant chunk of your quota (about 2% per invocation), bu...
daaang that's a little sharp
karmic lion
such is life
on the plus side, good odds that at least in the forseeable future, the global quota will never be exhausted, and so you never actually get charged against your personal quota
oh, also Bobby now has star ratings for each place, so it can tell you about that. so that's nice.
rough cliff
oh, also Bobby now has star ratings for each place, so it can tell you about tha...
Neat!
karmic lion
I asked my partner to try out the new POI stuff
2025/04/07 00:38:18 calling function poi
2025/04/07 00:38:19 Searching for POIs matching "things to do"
2025/04/07 00:38:19 Charged against global quota gplaces_text_search
2025/04/07 00:38:19 Found 10 POIs
2025/04/07 00:38:19 http: panic serving 130.211.2.174:58620: runtime error: invalid memory address or nil pointer dereference
goroutine 2756 [running]:
net/http.(*conn).serve.func1()
/usr/local/go/src/net/http/server.go:1947 +0xbe
panic({0xd22ac0?, 0x15b4120?})
/usr/local/go/src/runtime/panic.go:791 +0x132
github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/service/assistant/functions.searchPoi({0xfa3818?, 0xc00080cc30?}, 0xc00020fdc0, {0xca2660, 0xc0000b1700})
/go/src/app/service/assistant/functions/poi.go:176 +0xbb3
github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/service/assistant/functions.CallFunction({0xfa3818, 0xc00080cc30}, 0xc00020fdc0, {0xc00010861d, 0x3}, {0xc0006bc410, 0x43})
/go/src/app/service/assistant/functions/functions.go:105 +0x358
github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/service/assistant.(*PromptSession).Run.func1(0xc00063d928, 0xc00063d700, 0xc00035c540, 0xc0008122d0, 0xc000399740, 0xc000399770, 0xc00020fdc0, 0xc0003996e0, 0xc0003996d8)
/go/src/app/service/assistant/session.go:304 +0x1187
github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/service/assistant.(*PromptSession).Run(0xc00035c540, {0xfa3818, 0xc00080c5a0})
/go/src/app/service/assistant/session.go:324 +0xbea
github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/service/assistant.(*Service).handleQuery(0xc00020f480?, {0xfa29e0, 0xc00035c4e0}, 0xc0006f7900)
/go/src/app/service/assistant/assistant.go:107 +0x134
that went well.
fixed that now
karmic lion
pffft.
please appreciate this sequence of steps in response to "when will be the next total solar eclipse in Europe?"
https://bobby-api.rebble.io/reported-thread/2bb6fd0d-f525-40dc-80f0-4e41058fe63c
obviously important and relevant to the question: the weather in Paris this week.
also apparently relevant: the time in Paris in 3.8838854e+07 seconds
karmic lion
Techniques in prompting: telling the model that I will sue it if it doesn't follow the instruction.
quasi steeple
Have you tried positive reinforcement? Offer it a cookie
sick apex
tell it it'll get paid extra if it does well
quasi steeple
No need to outright lie to it 😂
karmic lion
The suing came to mind because I was instructing it to include attributions where necessary
"do this": no response
"You must do this": no response
"You must do this for legal reasons": no response
" You must do this for legal reasons or you will be sued": 100% compliance rate
karmic lion
one bit maps
aside from the logo, anyway.
also available in 64-colour
(the colours are tuned to make sense after showing on a Pebble screen)
but I don't think I have the memory for lots of colours.
the logo is a problem, I'll have to stamp a monochrome version over it or something.
(its presence is nonnegotiable, but surely they can't quibble over the monochrome display not displaying it in colour)
I guess for the monochrome version I could just say that anything that isn't a shade of grey gets shunted to black.
karmic lion
some success in getting the model to generate these.
overlapping markers aren't great.
not sure what I can do about that, though.
(re: grey - I'm intending to dither that)
64 colour version, incidentally
not sure the extra colour is worth three times the memory usage.
my kingdom for xip or something.
in general it will be interesting to see what this all looks like when I strip out the antialiasing and such
it looks like this. elegant.
quasi steeple
Does the map come in layers? How are you converting it?
karmic lion
there we go, calling that Good Enough for 1-bit.
I guess I'll go up to 2-bit for snowy and see if I can make that less bad by keeping some of the antialiasing.
karmic lion
Does the map come in layers? How are you converting it?
Google Maps' API lets you specify the colour of every map element
for the dithered water, I've set that to pure blue (#0000FF) and then translate any pure blue in the resulting image to dithered grey
originally I just set it to 50% grey but that resulted in dithering the antialising, which was undesirable.
karmic lion
I have yet to do 2-bit
the ones up above were many bit
the pebble colour palette is quite limiting
well the last few were one bit
but the original ones I was posting were many bits
quasi steeple
Ah sorry, misread the message
Not dumb, just tired
Well, a little dumb
The last 1bit looks great then lol
karmic lion
2 bit is so much better
not sure how to indicate the user's current location without colours, which none of these have
I have a map layout that actually uses colours but I don't think I want to spend the memory to use it, especially if I'm trying to antialias
quasi steeple
Can you save memory by using a limited pallet? You'd need like what, 5 colors at most?
karmic lion
well that's four colours to be apparently black and white
the next step gets me eight colours.
but that image is already multiple kilobytes
1995 byte PNG, then decompressed into a ~3 kilobyte GBitmap
plus the memory usage of the PNG decoder
I think I can just send it as a 2-bit palletised pbi to save on that overhead
but that's still 3k, plus whatever the size of the chunks I transmit it in is
I am pretty short on memory so this is a real problem.
I will have to figure out what the pbi format actually is
also still need to figure out what the "you are here" marker is
blue circle won't cut it if I can't show blue
quasi steeple
Create a quasi svg renderer for the pebble, then just send the streets as two coordinates for a line, some text for the street and then some squares and circles for forest/water
karmic lion
I feel this would use more than 3k in code space
but it would solve my aliasing problems completely.
quasi steeple
Boom, everything just got way more complicated 😅
karmic lion
but also I don't have that sort of data
also for legal reasons I must use Google Maps, specifically
quasi steeple
Yeah that makes sense
karmic lion
I could play really exciting games like having the watch render the you are here marker
stick a single pixel marker onto the map, find the coordinates of the marker on the server, delete it, then send those coordinates to the watch to use.
this doesn't solve any problems on diorite, though, because I still can't use colour
quasi steeple
Can you overlay a cross hair marker on the map and invert its colors so it stands out on the background?
karmic lion
might be a smart move on colour watches though
sure, or I could just put a white outline around it
I was thinking a little arrow maybe
one bit is the least useful number of bits.
quasi steeple
Alternatively, or additionally, can you have the center of the map always be the "you are here" location?
karmic lion
I could do that, but then if all the pins are off to the same side you've wasted a lot of map
quasi steeple
I feel this would use more than 3k in code space
Yes but it could be baked into the OS instead 🤔
karmic lion
currently I am just sticking all the markers on the map and leaving it to Google's judgement what bounds to use
(it already has this, that's what pdcs are)
no text on those, though.
maybe I could give it a little animation.
circle with pulses coming out
that's workable on black and white
quasi steeple
That'd be cute
karmic lion
it's also what every map app does, though usually the circle is blue
quasi steeple
Flashing arrow maybe
karmic lion
also the pulsing usually indicates the position is live, which it wouldn't be
quasi steeple
Does the map have to have the google logo? Or can you put a nice looking footer with the copyright info?
karmic lion
I can't get rid of that
there's no way to tell it to not be there, and it would be a terms violation to crop it out
if the image were wider it'd have a copyright notice instead of a logo
quasi steeple
Gotcha
karmic lion
apparently they switch to the logo at less than 180 pixels wide
acoustic wolf
there's no way to tell it to not be there, and it would be a terms violation to ...
maybe make it smaller?
karmic lion
the logo is also very antialised, which makes it exceedingly annoying to fix up
quasi steeple
Interesting, kinda amazed they even support such small sizes in this dat
karmic lion
maybe make it smaller?
also both a terms violation and not possible
acoustic wolf
sad
karmic lion
it does annoy me that they explicitly support a monochrome map (not 1-bit, but all greyscale) but then stuff a colour logo on it
why D:
it is very heavily antialised and also very bright which makes it pretty annoying to convert to 1-bit
also note that the road passing through the o has changed the antialising - they're doing transparency
very tempted to just grab the monochrome logo from their website and paste it over the colour one
quasi steeple
Can you make multiple requests with different elements on and off so you can do different levels of antialising?
karmic lion
I could but I am not sure how it would help
quasi steeple
Mostly thinking out loud, sorry if its distracting
I assume the logo is always in the same place? Overlaying the monochrome version is a good idea
Could probably manually tweak it to look better if needed. I would hope the lawyers wouldn't care about a few changed pixels if it makes the logo more readable
acoustic wolf
I wonder if one could ask Google to make a logo for low density screens
quasi steeple
karmic lion
their logo is actually fine for the size/density, it's the colours that are a problem
that logo is not just the standard logo downsized, some effort was involved in making it tiny
it'd be nice if we could just show the G though
although that, again, only works in colour
acoustic wolf
it'd be nice if we could just show the G though
that would probably be the best option
a dithered G for B&W
acoustic wolf
they're too big for such a small screen size
karmic lion
Hard to make them smaller and still put a letter in them
and without the letter there's not really any point
but generally yes, I agree
These are the built-in ones Google provides, which do also have two smaller sizes but they won't put letters in those
if I draw my own images I can in principle make them smaller.
thanks, really helpful
hollow rivet
How readable are the pins if you make them transparent with a border? And with a border around the text too. My guess is it'd be way too busy but 🤷
karmic lion
for now I have messed around with generating map images enough
I should probably see about actually getting them onto a watch
https://developer.rebble.io/developer.pebble.com/docs/c/Foundation/Resources/File_Formats/PBI_File_Format/index.html is not a very helpful document
apparently I was the last person who touched pebble's pbi generation, who knew
karmic lion
well, not that.
wooden wedge
I call this one "4 towere"
the towers even have a bit of an evil vibe with an outline of a face in them
karmic lion
I flipped a bit in the header
several things went wrong this time
…I'm not sure what happened to this one
something has gone wrong in the top right. maybe?
quasi steeple
The google logo looks better
karmic lion
I hand-pixeled it
anyway I have 2-bit pbi conversion working now
(also 1-bit and 4-bit palettes, in theory, but not non-palettised images)
now I just need to shove this all the way down to the watch
nothing wrong with the conversion here
(I'm just converting these back with pbi2png from the firmware for now)
the message key list is getting silly
there are currently 69 of them
oh, it'd also be nice to draw a scale on the map
that was the other thing I wanted.
hm.
problem: I have no idea what the scale is
acoustic wolf
…I'm not sure what happened to this one
an evil cloud has spawned with a visor up top
why does it look like an offbrand Pokémon
karmic lion
no idea what happened there, it seems like something's wrong but it doesn't feel like an image encoding error
Maybe the Core Time 2 will have oodles of app memory available and I can afford the full colour image
and also a bigger one
acoustic wolf
I do wonder why the runtime reserved heap is so large on basalt
karmic lion
there shouldn't be any
acoustic wolf
66kB reserved for app heap, 30kB for the AppState struct
karmic lion
oh, that
acoustic wolf
I didn't bother looking at it but from what I saw it was for RockyJS
maybe one day we can fix it and finally have more than 64kB of heap space
karmic lion
most of the reason appstate is so big is because it has an entire framebuffer in it, which is 24k on its own
(and also actually located in your app's accessible memory space, just not part of the heap)
quasi steeple
I think the scale is going to make things too difficult to read
acoustic wolf
right, the colour watches had a legacy framebuffer in AppState too
that's another 3kB
karmic lion
The primary value in the map, I think, is having some idea of relative locations
is it telling you about the pub in the next town or the one down the road?
karmic lion
in theory, it could decide to put ten on screen.
(well in theory it can put an unbounded number on screen, but ten is the largest number of locations it's likely to have at a time)
it is instructed to keep it to three or four
karmic lion
maybe
though then it has to reference the shapes by name in the text
which is weird
if I had the code space I'd probably already have my own text layout engine so I could embed not-text in them.
acoustic wolf
well it's one or the other
karmic lion
or change fonts mid-flow
acoustic wolf
~XIP~
karmic lion
there's already a FormattedTextLayer that can do markdown-style headings
it's used all over the place
renders things like https://github.com/pebble-dev/bobby-assistant/blob/main/app/resources/text/legal.txt nicely
acoustic wolf
I wonder if you could just display the marker with the text
karmic lion
acoustic wolf
mm, screen resolution hardcodes
karmic lion
😄
karmic lion
well it's part of Bobby, rather than a thing that generally exists
but one could reuse it
acoustic wolf
yeah
karmic lion
weary ether
This is incredible!
karmic lion
full screen width is pretty but also an extra 600 bytes over the original size.
also the code to handle hanging on to these images is another 3k or something in itself
sigh
also I guess there's some sort of memory leak in there somewhere, judging by Still allocated <1800B>.
really I'm just going to have to start dealing with memory pressure sanely.
throw things out if I need more space
handwave fragmentation and hope it somehow isn't a problem
bonus, more zoomed in map
edgy flame
@shell jetty
edgy flame
widgets with icons would have a rounded side to accomodate an icon
@shell jetty
here is the state of things
wooden wedge
widgets with icons would have a rounded side to accomodate an icon
these should also be in the bobby sketches
no need to show them separately
shell jetty
looks good! though i might actually consider two levels: an MVP that just adapts the existing UI as closely as possible while adding pagination, and an aspirational design for like the ultimate bobby round adaptation
also having just seen the 3.x round main menu, i actually think something like that could be ideal
pretty colored circles
wooden wedge
we disagreed a lot about the direction, so seeing any of the ideas on the screen might make it easier to visualise the best of them
on that note, I will have my round next week I think, so I might be able to test the interface a bit
(as much as I wish I found a ptr to buy, I'm just traveling to the country where my stash of pebbles is)
shell jetty
i'll put together some rough concepts to try and show what i'm thinking!
wooden wedge
hell yeah, can't wait
karmic lion
As long as it uses zero code space and does not increase overall complexity 😄
wooden wedge
maybe it uses negative code space and reduces complexity
karmic lion
I think at this point my basic take on round support is that it should paginate and have different widget layouts but otherwise be unchanged.
karmic lion
it is really, really easy to make a pebble reboot
whatever happened to having memory protection
karmic lion
this map is code, apparently
also all things considered I think that's a decently legible map
covert ingot
Yeah that's looking good!
karmic lion
still need to get the "your position" marker in there
also maybe render the pins on the watch so I can do them in colour
(but, again, code space, my eternal enemy)
covert ingot
Could the Bobby backend not add the pins?
karmic lion
No, the problem is the size of the image.
That is a 2-bit image, and I've used all the bits to get antialiasing to work
To add more colour would make it a 4-bit image, which would double its memory usage
I don't have that much memory to spare
covert ingot
Oh I see
karmic lion
Which is why it's in greyscale on a colour watch
covert ingot
Yeah makes sense, but you could render a colour layer on top of the image
karmic lion
I could
as I suggeted above!
but again: code space
I'm already planning to render the "you are here" marker on the watch, I think, because it'd be nice to make that blue or something.
covert ingot
Yeah sorry that was me agreeing with you, not suggesting your idea back to you 😁
karmic lion
I may also end up making the map not be full width
every pixel counts
actually this isn't true, every fourth pixel counts
the other three would be padding anyway
I might also see how much code space saving I can get by simplifying the image manager so it can only hold one image at a time
it's not like I have the memory for lots of images anyway
(I can handle two, if the conversation is otherwise short)
a different concept
this is so precarious that the 'report conversation' screen now crashes the app.
although once it sort of worked but the loading animation failed to load
bah
maybe this is infeasible with the amount of memory I have
honestly any new Bobby features are probably infeasible with the amount of memory I have
karmic lion
well I've pushed a branch for posterity
but I'm not sure this is worth pursuing.
maybe the Core Time 2 will have a giant pile of memory
wooden wedge
time to rewrite with pebble.js to not need to have any additional watch-side code
karmic lion
hm.
(she says, and then runs off to build an overcomplicated solution to the problem)
wooden wedge
can't wait for the results of that
covert ingot
Is that the sound of a 2am bedtime approaching
rough cliff
Sleep is overrated
karmic lion
have another map
aand reset the watch again
the frequency with which I crash the entire OS is annoyingly high.
fervent steppe
indeed, 'y u no know why rebooted?'
that is a quite good looking map, and arguably better than my car manages to render on its 24bpp instrument cluster
karmic lion
[21:17:05] malloc.c:16> Out of memory! Need to allocate 389 bytes; 436 bytes free.
[21:17:05] pressure.c:57> Memory emergency! Trying to free memory.
[21:17:05] pressure.c:70> Calling memory pressure callback 0x2001e695 with priority 0
[21:17:05] image_manager.c:253> Memory pressure! Destroying the oldest image.
[21:17:05] pressure.c:72> Freed some memory!
[21:17:05] malloc.c:27> Freed 3708 bytes, heap size is now 4144. Retrying allocation of 389 bytes.
I seem to be losing several thousand bytes somewhere, though
should probably figure out where they're going
possibly related: errors about PNG decoding when no PNG decoding should be taking place at all
celest pulsar
```
[21:17:05] malloc.c:16> Out of memory! Need to allocate 389 bytes; 436 bytes...
living on the edge
karmic lion
well now (almost) all of the allocations go through this system
so if an alarm goes off when the map is onscreen, it unloads the map to show the alarm instead of crashing
this is still not a great place to be though
[22:25:43] gpath.c:543> Unable to allocate memory for GPath call
[22:25:43] gpath.c:543> Unable to allocate memory for GPath call
[22:25:43] gpath.c:543> Unable to allocate memory for GPath call
[22:25:43] gpath.c:543> Unable to allocate memory for GPath call
[22:25:43] gpath.c:543> Unable to allocate memory for GPath call
[22:25:43] gpath.c:543> Unable to allocate memory for GPath call
well, all the ones I can control, anyway.
I think my other take is that all bobby development is canceled because it's just not possible to fit anything into the available space.
shell jetty
I think at this point my basic take on round support is that it should paginate ...
this is pretty much exactly what i'm trying to do -- my goal is to use as light of a touch as possible
karmic lion
it would also be nice if any of the development tooling worked at all
apparently I can save 7k by deleting all my logging
that's a decent chunk.
of course now I have no logging.
worn wind
I just installed Bobby on my Pebble time steel. I set a reminder but I don't get a notification when the reminder is due. Is there something I need to do to get the notification?
karmic lion
and there goes the entire system again for some reason.
karmic lion
I just installed Bobby on my Pebble time steel. I set a reminder but I don't get...
Reminders are set as timeline pins, with an attached notification. Aside from waiting long enough for it to sync (which it will warn you about), and not having notifications disabled or anything, reminders shouldn't need anything extra.
shell jetty
of course now I have no logging.
i vaguely remember encountering this issue with TimeStyle too -- maybe it could be worth controlling whether or not logging is enabled with a preprocessor directive? 🤔
karmic lion
none of it matters if everything I do is going to cause random system resets with no predictability
this functionally kills the project.
karmic lion
ah shit
quasi steeple
Is it worth removing support for POI if it allows development to continue? Maybe limit that feature to watches with the memory to use it?
karmic lion
the crashing all the time is independent of the POIs. ish. who knows.
between a) being out of memory, and therefore unable to add any more code to the app, and also b) everything just crashing all the time because Pebble, ongoing work is discouraging.
quasi steeple
Yeah that's fair. Well I just ordered a pebble time steel I found on eBay. I've done a bit of Dev on esp32s, though nothing with a screen. Any recommendations on where I could be useful for Dev?
karmic lion
wow, colour.
obtuse oriole
This is all bonkers in the best way possible.
shell jetty
It's really impressive to me how Bobby has achieved the-thing-that-Siri-And-Alexa-Were-Marketed-As while none of the major players offer anything like it
i just asked several follow up questions about this week's weather and it got them all
karmic lion
I don't understand Google Maps' marker layering logic, if indeed there is any logic
I have discovered that the flaw in my 'stick a pixel in to figure out where the user is located' plan is that, if a marker happens to render above that, the user location pixel is no longer visible
apparently this is b/35819311, which has been open for over fifteen years.
ugh
one gets the general impression that static maps are basically unmaintained.
I also wonder what horrifying thing happened to the text here
oh I seeee
ugh
everything has consequences
okay, fixed wild text rendering problems
once again, it was caused by antialiasing
incidentally, for comparison, this is an image directly from Google
and this is what it looks like on the pebble
edgy flame
that is really well done
karmic lion
I suppose in principle I could stamp the google logo back in on the watch side and thus have it in colour
though that would cost more memory, and still be an awkward approximation, so pass.
also involved in this: the world's most half-arsed pbi encoder
karmic lion
okay, on iOS I'm being getting invalid token errors
that's exciting
what are these tokens the iOS app is giving me that aren't real
it appears to just be making them up, they don't exist anywhere
ughhhhhhh
it is, it's just making the token up
there's no way this can work
what are you doing, ios
the answer to what it's doing is: if you ever install it from the appstore, it gets a real timeline token. if you then sideload it, it removes the locker entry (and incidentally invalidates the associated timeline token), but continues to use that cached timeline token forever
fucking pebble apps.
screenshot on a real black and white device
I guess I should make the 'you are here' dot black, it doesn't stand out at all in the current grey
sure, that'll do.
karmic lion
hm, I was going to use the running pony as a loading animation, but I don't think I have the memory for it in this context
guess I'll just have the pulsing dots
"but I don't have the memory for it" is an annoyingly common sentiment.
in most contexts these images don't cost me all that much memory because I just throw them away if I need the space
but I can't do that for the loading animation for the image itself
karmic lion
and I crashed my watch again
why is the watch crashing
completely impossible to debug, I will never know
now you get a nice icon when we throw an image out due to low memory.
fragmentation appears
[03:46:55] malloc.c:32> Out of memory! Need to allocate 3616 bytes; 3936 bytes free.
[03:46:55] pressure.c:70> Memory emergency! Trying to free memory.
[03:46:55] malloc.c:37> Failed to allocate memory: couldn't free enough heap.
[03:46:55] ault_handling.c:97> App fault! {1d272bb4-cf00-4e3e-a7f3-7394309e0341} PC: 0x80074c0 LR: 0x80a5b15
Program Counter (PC) : 0x80074c0 ???
Link Register (LR) : 0x80a5b15 ???
maybe I should just statically allocate one image worth of space so I never have to worry about being able to allocate 3600 bytes in one go
of course, this means that you are always paying this cost.
acoustic wolf
I wonder how much memory you could squeeze out by doing stuff like packed structs
karmic lion
Possibly a negative amount, because packed struts generally require additional code to access their values
There are kilobytes disappearing somewhere I can't immediately identify, so evidently there is room for improvement
But I'm no longer motivated to chase it
Things act very weird in the low memory state
Like the dictation UI gets stuck on a full progress bar
karmic lion
I guess I could still pull it off if I make it suck
Shrink from full width, 1 bit only
That's still 1500 bytes for a map
But that's better than 3600
meh
😦
quasi steeple
I'd rather have Bobby and no map than no Bobby and no map. Maybe take a break from this feature and work on other aspects of the code?
I guess what I'm suggesting is do what you need to so you don't burn out
karmic lion
Well I wasn't particularly working on anything else anyway
Unless people have interesting suggestions it's basically a finished product
quasi steeple
fair enough, just checking
karmic lion
The maps did look pretty good n watches aside from the part where the app crashed. Or the watch crashed.
I am sad I can't ship them; I think they make the POI features much more useful
quasi steeple
in vector_layer.c, your vector_layer_destroy method doesn't look like it's freeing the VectorLayerData.GDrawCommandImage pointer, is it taken care of somewhere else?
karmic lion
Yes, whatever created the image still owns it
shell jetty
Unless people have interesting suggestions it's basically a finished product
train schedules would be super neat, though i realize you already made the caltrain app for that
karmic lion
Train schedules would be cool
Better transit information in general would be nice
I tried this once but I was never able to get it to behave well
That's all server-side work so it's a plausible thing to dig into.
shell jetty
IIRC the problem is transit data is either you have to pay for it or deal with every transit agency's weird individual APIs
karmic lion
Bobby pays for many things; as long as the pricing is reasonable it's fine.
And ideally pay as you go
shell jetty
does google maps expose train schedules programmatically?
karmic lion
I don't think so.
shell jetty
alas
karmic lion
I used Here before, which does expose information
Original Bobby had features that post-Google Bobby still lacks:
- transit information and routing
- stock prices and information
- smart home controls
- pebble health support
Removed variously because they were terrible or impossible
The Hue stuff I'm sad about, that worked well but a security change broke it
shell jetty
alas it seems HERE doesn't support japanese train schedules (admittedly they are probably one of the most complex ones to deal with)
shell jetty
Original Bobby had features that post-Google Bobby still lacks:
- transit infor...
oh those seem neat
yeah too bad about the smart home stuff, that's such a killer app for voice assistants
karmic lion
Variously:
- the transit information was never presented usefully
- there is no legitimate source for stock market data
- Hue broke my thing, and Home Assistant is just not the experience I want to offer
- health info was underbaked and not worth the cost of including the support
shell jetty
makes sense, most health queries would probably be something like "how many steps did i take today", which doesn't seem particularly useful
urban solstice
Particularly not when it's one buttonpress away from the watchface anyway
urban solstice
One feature I personally would appreciate - synchronising reminders to the Google Tasks calendar; or, alternatively, a separate "task" reminder that explicitly does this
Setting reminders requires that you know that at a given future time, you will be wearing your watch and be conscious to acknowledge it (or, have notifications set to never timeout, and be consistently diligent about checking through them)
I find that tricky to keep up consistently. With tasks/reminders I set via Google Assistant, I can rely on the notification staying in my phone's drawer and/or in my calendar until dismissed, snoozed, or marked complete, but reminders set via Bobby are quite ephemeral 😅
Having tried to interact with G's reminders (before it became Tasks) programmatically in the past I know it's painful. I can only hope that Tasks is better; but one obvious roadblock is that the Pebble app does not see the Google Tasks "calendar" as a calendar that could be synchronised...
karmic lion
That's fair. I don't know how interested I am in digging into it, though - at the moment Bobby has no possible way to do any of this because it's just JavaScript on your phone, so it's a big lift.
But timeline reminders are pretty meh, I feel.
They are the Pebble Thing
urban solstice
Mmm. One thing I had considered was extending Timeline via a third-party "also copy any custom pins to a calendar" task, but the (publicly visible, at least) API does not allow pulling, just pushing.
I reckon just that alone would alleviate my user story
karmic lion
Technically the pulling API is just as public as the pushing one if you can get a bearer token
urban solstice
Just a case of getting the token and capturing the API call, right
karmic lion
pypkjs has an implementation (that polls every ten seconds or something; please don't do that)
It is quite simple: https://github.com/pebble/pypkjs/blob/master/pypkjs/timeline/websync.py
urban solstice
I realise this is quicky getting out of scope of this thread; but you're the right person to ask, so:
Can I create a JS-only app that could make these (authenticated) API calls via the phone app on some cadence/trigger?
I'm also perfectly happy with a "just for me and anyone who cares enough to capture their auth token" solution, but releasing it on the store would be pretty sick
karmic lion
There's no good way to run periodically
Nothing stops you other than that, I think.
(you can set wake-up timers, but they actually launch the app on the watch and so are disruptive)
urban solstice
Unfortunate 😊
The phone JS context otherwise has access to the user's token?
karmic lion
Not the correct one; they'd have to extract it and you'd need to make it configurable
I misread your message again, I think
Oh well
urban solstice
Hueh; either way I think that puts us firmly in the realm of "off-store solution dressed up as well as it can be" if I want to have it shareable. Thanks for saving me some RnD time 😛
celest pulsar
personal opinion: daytrading stocks is like gambling for the vast majority of people, who have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do it profitably. so easy, non-expert onroads to frequently buying/selling stocks (like keeping track of price fluctuations) are a trap. it's an anti-feature....not that people realize that before they lose most of the money they put in...
on the topic of tasks, I'd prefer a solution that hooks into android's task system, rather than the google backend. there are people who keep tasks in other backends (caldav/nextcloud/outlook/whatever), that are usually left out when solutions focus on google services
sick apex
Unless people have interesting suggestions it's basically a finished product
I think the biggest thing would be having Bobby talk back to you on the new Core watches but obviously that'd have to wait until they come out and the implementation for the speakers is known
edgy flame
i'd be more than happy with the watch not talking to me
do u actually want that, or is it just a thing voice assistants are supposed to do?
wooden wedge
I would love to see l10n and text size settings applying to bobby, which I don't think it does right now?
I would also love more integrations with things like home assistant, but that seems impossible
sick apex
do u actually want that, or is it just a thing voice assistants are supposed to ...
I kind of want it, it can be convenient when I'm on the move
Obviously it should have a toggle in Bobby settings if it does materialize
but like if I'm driving or bicycling, stopping to read about Gavrilo Princip is unsafe, you know?
better to hear it be spoken aloud
wooden wedge
how do you operate bobby if you are driving or cycling
that seems concerning enough for either
sick apex
quick launch
wooden wedge
you still need to click a button
karmic lion
Pressing physical buttons is pretty feasible
I'm pretty excited to make it talk, but only if i don't have to pay the memory cost for the audio
Hopefully I can just send it some audio from PebbleKit JS.
karmic lion
personal opinion: daytrading stocks is like gambling for the vast majority of pe...
I don't day trade stocks, but I do get paid in them, and so have a significant interest. Also I enjoy pointing and laughing when Tesla goes down (which sadly it does not do very much).
wooden wedge
poi map that no longer exists should display the compass direction in your current position
I found a reason for compass in bobby
karmic lion
I have come to the conclusion that I could put the maps back in, but it would be the last feature
In general there is space for about one more feature
I don't think it's the correct last feature
After that all new features will be Core Time 2 exclusive
(because 128k of memory is much more generous)
(or maybe someone will get XIP working and it'll stop mattering)
Localisation is probably a good idea
wooden wedge
you mean l10n?
karmic lion
I'll write whole words if I want to
It's actually easier when using swipe typing
Internationalisation is, too
wooden wedge
l10n and i17n are the least readable shortcuts
karmic lion
you lost a letter there
wooden wedge
god damn it
barren raptor
kubernetes isn't even that long, I'm not sure why k8s is neccesary
wooden wedge
k8s is just stupid
wooden wedge
ok, I hate that more
barren raptor
saving 3 sylabbles is not worth kates
karmic lion
Also it's easier to explain than the pronunciation of Kubernetes
(ku-ber-net-ease? ku-ber-neets?)
(it's the former)
wooden wedge
I have heard so many pronunciations
karmic lion
The real question is how you pronounce kubectl
wooden wedge
ku ber nay tees is my fave because it's just mad
barren raptor
Also it's easier to explain than the pronunciation of Kubernetes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w6kXdHXxAA let SUSE do it
karmic lion
(koob cuttle? cube kuttle? koob control? cube control?)
barren raptor
The real question is how you pronounce kubectl
cube c-t-l is how i'd pronounce it
karmic lion
(there is no consensus)
wooden wedge
cube see tea el
karmic lion
cube c-t-l is how i'd pronounce it
There is consensus that it's not that
barren raptor
lmao
wooden wedge
that's disappointing
chilly moat
i pronounce it "kuh-beck-tull"
karmic lion
Alas
chilly moat
this isn't a joke btw i've had coworkers get mad at me for this
karmic lion
As they should
Actually I have heard that but generally as a deliberately contrarian option
rough cliff
Sequel vs S-Q-L, cube control vs koob cuttle
The IT version of "potato, po-tah-to"
karmic lion
But it's been over five years now since I worked on Kubernetes so maybe everyone changed their mind
In retrospect a career mistake, they were giving me multiple trophies a year
https://www.cncf.io/announcements/2019/11/20/cloud-native-computing-foundation-announces-2019-community-awards-winners/ IIRC the embed for this has a really terrible photo of me in it
Yup
(weirdly, it's not in the actual article)
wooden wedge
none of the people in the picture look happy to be there
karmic lion
I think it's because we were all just presented a log
wooden wedge
is that what that is
karmic lion
They told us we were getting this award in advance and comped our tickets
Then dragged us on stage and gave us a log in a bucket
Chop wood, carry water
wooden wedge
I can't believe y'all were not eternally thankful to cncf for the log and bucket
severance tier award
karmic lion
rough cliff
That's odd
karmic lion
I have many feelings on the CNCF and by extension the Linux Foundation
They aren't positive
Also they drilled a hole in bottom of the bucket so they could bolt the wood to it
Which feels like a message of some sort
rough cliff
Not carrying much water with that bucket
edgy flame
chop wood, carry water...?
wooden wedge
chop no wood, carry no water
karmic lion
Google's prizes were better.
rough cliff
It would also be slightly difficult to chop that wood
sick apex
my dad got awarded a chunk of coal encased in a resin cube once
for his work at the refinery he works at
karmic lion
You can pull the cube apart, it's in a few pieces
edgy flame
that is a cool cube
karmic lion
The G runs straight through vertically and the rest stack on top
Makes great sounds while you do it too
rough cliff
That's cool
karmic lion
Absurd degree of resonance