Archer Changes

[snow bear]

this isn't always necessarily true

some players won't shoot you until you drop the block

[hushed dagger]

The easiest counter to archers is just tell them "no". A simple "no" killed @twilit kraken's connection yesterday.

Im not entirely sure if that's constructive but over the last week's I got a little more active in fighting archers and I guess my raw kd purely when fighting archers might be 10/1 so the counter is possible. But to be fair some maps have just ridiculous desertion zones and far too much open field... On the other side the open field is mostly in the early stages of the game, so it balances out over the course of the whole map. One more thing I also find a little over the top is the crossbows headshot dmg vs knights and the warbows overall dmg vs knights. + I'm a high lvl TO sweat so kd might not be very representative

[thorn robin]

Just dodge

[worn marsh]

It's not worth explaining that honestly.

He keep repeating Archers are able to make mistakes, not be punished and it's all a 1v1 vacuum where Melee is a victim even up close.

[thorn robin]

Archers can make mistakes, it’s called missing

[snow bear]

well if an archer misses they don't lose any stamina, and they usually don't lose any health unless they could have killed a low-hp enemy closing the distance

there is validity to both perspectives

[paper zephyr]

More cover?! Give archers walls

[thorn robin]

Throw a rock at em then

[pliant trail]

I meant cover for the MELEES because the argument seems to always be it's not fun to counter archer and people don't wanna pick shield so more cover on the approach should make things a bit more okay

[lost hill]

its not necessarily that people dont want to pick shields

its that shields have issues on their own, and break pretty quick in TO

[snow bear]

do shields really need to break?

I mean, if TB decided to remove shields' feature of breaking, would anyone dislike it?

[lapis cipher]

it'd be annoying to fight someone who turtles behind it since shields reduce the stamina damage you take by 75%

so they'd want to lower that if they made shields unbreakable

[snow bear]

I mean

you could just like

press f

[lost hill]

kicks are risky. having shields not break would require a stamina nerf for shields

[snow bear]

but turtling causes massive stamina loss

I've never seen anyone do it effectively

[fathom aurora]

As they are right now? Yes that'd be broken as fuck.

You could just riposte everything and never worry.

[lost hill]

(bias, i play skirmisher, and jab alot with shield).

shields breaking, especially as easy as they do, makes them virtually useless in a 1vX for more than a a few seconds, theyre good for buying time, but you HAVE to get rid of it before it breaks otherwise, you die

[fathom aurora]

They're a weird item rn. They help you survive 1vx a bit longer until they kill you, but they will defend against arrows so long as you're using your very limited block time correctly.

Also they become full projectile protection as a backpack

[rocky perch]

you can't rely on shield if you're constantly blocking, but if you can consistently counter, it's very good for the occasional riposte, defence against archer and throwables, and saving some stam if you miss time a counter

[fathom aurora]

That's a good point, they do really buff players that can counter a lot.

[snow bear]

the real reason to use a shield is:
A. Jabbing an enemy to death
B. throwing it at an enemy they picking it back up again

[rocky perch]

shield is essentially a reserve stamina bar

it's more of a shield for your stamina than for your hp

[fathom aurora]

Though they are mostly limited to weapons with short counter windows

[lost hill]

shields overall just break too easy. 200/300/400 doesnt last long when the average weapon hitting it is ~50 damage

counters block the shield from taking damage, but they also dont take stamina, making the shield effectively null as it doesnt factor into taking damage, or giving a bonus to stamina

the BIG issue, is that WHEN shield breaks. you eat a free hit. meaning its an extra layer of something you have to keep a MENTAL note on, since there isnt any meter to show how much more your shield can take

shields are liabilities as much as they are bonuses, and when being limited to 1 handed weapons while using a shield. most players are going to take the 2 handed option due to the limitations of shields.

[rocky perch]

300/400 is quite alot for people that can consistently counter, you're not meant to riposte infinitely with shields, it's there as a backup for miss timing a counter or saving stamina from ripostes to win stamina fights. yes you take a free hit if your shield break, but so does getting disarmed, which is what shields prevent from happening

it's useful in 1vX too if your shield has most of its hp since you can riposte more, giving you more choice in timing and target switching

also, you can still make an estimate of your shield's hp by looking at how damaged it is

honestly, if you could repair shields, MAA and/or guardian would probably be the meta for duels

or atleast people would use them way more

[lapis cipher]

I just wish I could replenish a shield at a supply crate. Shouldn't have to die or scavenge the battlefield for something that's a part of my class.

[snow bear]

it truly is annoying that restoring a shield is sometimes only possible through suicide

[pliant trail]

Hey I just saw this, wanted to answer with "Yeah but people keep complaining about the fact they have to pick shield to counter arrows saying it gimps weapon choices, I'm honestly for making shields actually detect when they should and maybe giving them a health buff but probably not making them unbreakable cuz it could lead to unexpected fuckery in how they work with melee"

[pliant trail]

I agree with that, if the shield is finite it should be replenished with the crates

[rocky perch]

replenishing shields might be a bit strong for TO, but would be nice for duel servers just for convenience, and adding a visible shield hp bar to the HUD would be great too

[vagrant eagle]

they should add spiked shields, that way the shield never breaks

[worn marsh]

Spiked shields is something I have asked for, would make for some fun for shield boys.

Would also help with their health.

[lost hill]

the thing about shields is that:

you cant repair it

the passive block for projectiles isnt consistent enough to rely on

again, 300/400 health isnt much, a single duel can break a shield from full hp (if youre good at counters, youre getting less value from the shield, to a point there is no reason taking it)

when the shield breaks. its the same as running out of stamina, you get stunned when you drop it and youre now open to a free hit

if the ONLY tradeoff to bringing a shield was less range on your weapons.. i think a lot more people would bring one...

but notice how many MAA and guardian players that end up with their shield on their back to make sure its not a liability until they need it

[past elm]

Less range?

[lost hill]

using shield limits your to 1 handed weapons. the only 2 weapons that you can use with one had and still have comparable reach to a 2handed, are the spears. which have their own limitations

TLDR: taking a shield requires you to give something else up

[past elm]

Okay so not less range, just different weapons. Thought you meant something else

[lost hill]

1 handed weapons... have less reach than 2 handed weapons...?

taking a shield, limits to your the reach disadvantage. of those 1 handed weapons.

only 2 weapons have comparable reach, and they have issues of their own

[strange kelp]

Sword and especially Cav sword can outrange a bunch of 2-h weapons

[past elm]

You were saying less range like having the shield out gave artificially less range compared to not having it out. That's where the confusion came from.

[lost hill]

calv sword is a niche case. as i believe it to have a hitbox longer than the weapon itself

i was more refering to the one handed spears

[past elm]

Shields themselves don't give less range. 1h weapons as a whole have less range (on average)

1h spear, heavy calvary sword and whatnot notwithstanding

[wraith magnet]

I'd argue shields technically kinda sorta give you less range by virtue of movement debuff, though this really only affects guardians (because giving beneficial class perks to knights is a meme) and non shield classes, and isn't strictly the same thing as actually having less pixels to hit with. But it is pretty noticeable in gameplay if you're rocking something like whammer with vs without a shield. I do find myself curious if attack lunge distance has anything to do with mobility or debuffs though.

[lost hill]

there isnt a movement debuff, thats been disproven

but shields breaking as easily as they do, thats an issue

[carmine zenith]

DON'T TAKE MY AXE

[hollow steppe]

Archer are okay

I've heard they have like crazy aim assist on controller though

[thorn robin]

Archers are evil

[fathom aurora]

Just for those that say "bring a shield" and "position the enemy between you". Cos it works so damn well https://clips.twitch.tv/PlumpFrigidKathyM4xHeh-j-Q1nIgx_4ystO2E

[atomic stratus]

You’re positioning was pretty trash imo. Why are you even solo flanking and challenging 2 melees and an archer? I would’ve just left

[fathom aurora]

He was just leaving the objective. and two melees isnt an issue tbh

even for me and ziggy is much, much better than I am

And once again the advice is "just don't be there" as a way to deal with archers 👏

[atomic stratus]

Yeah, he’s really skilled but the problem is the fact that an archer was there. I don’t doubt he would’ve rolled those two players but he leaves himself exposed to archers when he attacks. Which is why I said he should’ve just left, or at least waited for an ally

[worn marsh]

Classic example of why Archer haters are so easily ignored

• over extended
• trying to 1v3
• easily escapable situation but doesn’t
• swings (2 times) literally exposing himself to the only way the archer can damage him
• Dies and blames the Archer not their horrible choices

God the videos in this thread have been perfect examples of failed talking points.

[fathom aurora]

the problem is the fact that an archer was there
Yup, doesn't even need to be at risk

Your argument is "you can't fight the archer just leave" it's amazing you dont see the issue with that

[atomic stratus]

You can fight the archer, you just gotta be smart about it

[fathom aurora]

The fact is with a high level of skill that 1v3 is winnable even with no health. IT requires perfect play but it's possible. One of those players is now an archer standing 5m away and suddenly there's zero chance but to run away, which you can't because there's two melee that will also catch you.

It turns a bad situation that is survivable with skill and thought into "lol, you die now" because... why? Why is that justifiable?

[worn marsh]

You mean swinging at the melee two times instead of walking backwards wasn’t a good idea?

Almost like the Archer couldn’t have hit him if he didn’t do exactly that?

Nah it’s the Archers fault

[worn marsh]

You can’t use the “high level of skill” argument here when the clip shows a guy dropping his shield to swing towards the archer holding a shot.

That’s the complete opposite of your claim.

He died because he over extended.

[fathom aurora]

Of course the shield draining all his stamina super quick, meaning the block hold wouldn't have worked has NOTHING to do with it. If he went to counter, guess what? The archer shoots

[atomic stratus]

Yeah, just leave the shield on your back and turn around and move that melee fight somewhere else. Nothing the archer can do about it

[worn marsh]

Yup but that would require not tunnel visioning the 2 melee

[fathom aurora]

chase mechanic says no

[worn marsh]

Over extended doesn’t mean you can blame other stuff for you failure. It was his fault

[atomic stratus]

Dawg, he had an ally show up right after he died, he just had to stall and retreat

[fathom aurora]

so just runaway, ignore the archers, not a problem la-la-la-la-la-la-la

[worn marsh]

No you would do as you claim and play with skill that would tell you not to over extend and take a 1v3 vs an Archer.

But blaming poor choices and their consequences on Archers seems to be what you want to do instead.

This is why they will remain a problem to you and that streamer.

[fathom aurora]

"just don't fight the archer" is skill now

[worn marsh]

Where did I say that? Quote it

[fathom aurora]

play with skill that would tell you not to over extend and take a 1v3 vs an Archer.

[worn marsh]

That says play with skill and not 1v3, you can fight the archer still. You just don’t do it in that absolutely horrible way.

[atomic stratus]

Yes run, why are trynna play in the enemy back line anyway. Go play the objective. Unless the archer is like a toptier archer and his very existence is swaying the battle, just ignore em

[fathom aurora]

just ignore them

okay

[worn marsh]

Nah swing at the air like he did, don’t ignore him and use that example to model your play after, let us know which nets you better games.

[atomic stratus]

Yeah, there archers. They play distance. You’d have more value on the battlefield at the frontline then trynna solo flank the enemy archers

Most archers are at an average lvl anyway. Not good, not bad, they just exist. I don’t know why you’re so fixated on trynna fight them

[wise kraken]

lol hes at the objective in the vid

[wise kraken]

the archer showed up very late and all he did was shoot an arrow as he turned the corner

[inner pecan]

From what i seen it worked well till he swung and never kept them in between the archer

[fathom aurora]

worked until he stopped holding block at the archer while being attacked by two others, it makes for super fun gameplay

[worn marsh]

Lol no he swung 2 times after seeing the Archer. Stop the cap

He also was behind the and to the right of the objective. Flanking solo towards the spawn

[wise kraken]

hes just to the right of it, not behind it

[worn marsh]

And he was swinging , literally the only thing he can do to allow the archer to hit him correct? He did it 2 times lol.

[wise kraken]

wow he swung at some bad guys

[inner pecan]

He didnt need to hold block at all since the archers view was blocked. You should know this if you dont need to block you dont do it.

He was burning stamina when he didnt need too

[worn marsh]

So he

• over extended solo

• tried to 1v2

• seen the archer and didn’t LOS or retreat

• swing his weapon getting rid of his only defense since he didn’t LOS

• gets his bud to post here to gaslight about archers

At no point are they admitting he just played bad and made absolute horrible choices

[wise kraken]

🤓

[worn marsh]

By all means you guys keep posting stuff like this, it just helps the “Archers are a common sense problem not a skill problem” argument

[wise kraken]

archers be wildin

[inner pecan]

I wouldnt even say he over extended he could of easily won that 1 v 2. If anything he could of used that archer to help him too

[worn marsh]

Ya it’s wild he literally positioned himself to be a perfect target and then engages not once but twice lol

[inner pecan]

Well im saying he didnt over extend i decided to go the video where they clipped it and he was doing objective but retreated when people started noticing him. Only 2 chased him and then the archer showed up but he could of easily won that fight. He actually did what we said to do was keep people in between him and the archer till the end which he swung for no reason.

[wise kraken]

keeper a broken record ngl

[inner pecan]

But also it was weird he was burning his stamina when it was clear the archer was being blocked by his teammtes which made no sense.

[vagrant eagle]

Whats the issue here im confused

[worn marsh]

He does that a lot, I think he gets overwhelmed.

[inner pecan]

#1110814303692537856 message just replying to their video

[worn marsh]

A guy tried to flank, engages a 1v3 with a shield. Dies to an archer because he wildly swung and blames the Archer class and #savechivalry

[vagrant eagle]

Ziggy isnt gonna be the perfect player 24/7, he swung at the wrong time wrong place

[worn marsh]

100% correct but that death was his fault not because archers are (… I can’t keep up with what the current excuses is).

[vagrant eagle]

I crouch archers shooting at me personally, 1/2 body missing less chance of being hit, like 1/3 if people are on me

[lapis cipher]

He didn't swing for no reason. He swung to hit the vanguard in front of him, probably assuming the terrain would keep him safe in absence of the shield, which it evidently did not.

[vagrant eagle]

Archer got a normal shot on ziggys left side due to ziggy trying to slash the enemy, its basic fighting here nothing bad

[lapis cipher]

Still clearly not the right choice in that situation though. He should have focused more on defense until he could put the building between him and the archer

[vagrant eagle]

Yeah thats my point, he thought it wouldnt occur like that, got shot, simple as

[inner pecan]

The reason why i said he swung for no reason is cause he didnt need too. He swung after the vanguard missed his jab.

[lapis cipher]

Hitting people, at least people who are paying attention, is a decent way to temper their aggression. Maybe he wanted to sneak in a hit to give himself a safer retreat.

After all, the vanguard missing could have been a free damage opportunity in another scenario.

[inner pecan]

Yeah that was the thing since he was already retreating he had the advantage to do that after that vanguard missed but instead went offensive and if you watch closely he moves up to hit around him which opened him up to get hit by that archer

What bugs me the most is he burns his stamina blocking for no reason when the archer couldnt hit him cause of that knight

[lapis cipher]

its hard for me to tell if you think I'm saying that slash was the right move, and it's really bothering me

[inner pecan]

No i understand what you were trying to say and i aint saying you were saying that was the right move.

[lapis cipher]

Okay cool.

Benefit of the doubt, maybe holding block was in case the archer wisened up and strafed to a position where he could take a shot while being barely in view. Of course, if this was the active thought process, he wouldn't have swung at the vanguard since he would be primarily worried about the archer.

[inner pecan]

@fathom aurora I dont understand tho cause that video actually proves what we said works till you stop doing it like it shows. Its just weird he burned out his stamina when he didnt need too and then opened himself up like that.

[inner pecan]

Thats when you go back into blocking to adjust yourself back. Like my top weapon is Maul and no weapon comes close to the amount of time i played with Maul. Im saying he could of won that fight easily especially since he had that shield with him.

[lost hill]

the thing being, is he had a shield.. has the archer on the left side, maximizing the oppoturnity for a passive block. and STILL got hit

there would be no winning that situation in the slightest because blocking the arrows would mean that you CANT attack

[inner pecan]

archer was on his right not left look at the video again.

[lapis cipher]

The archer is mostly to the front right. It's hard to get a feel for the positions of people because the clip is so short.

it took me a bit to spot where the archer actually was

[inner pecan]

If you go to the clip it will show where click here for full video and you can see the whole stream clip

It will bring you to the time stamp of where it was clipped

[lost hill]

my bad, i was looking behind the barricades. yeah he was on the right

but the point still stands, when an archer is looking at your. you take a risk every time you attack

[lapis cipher]

Which is an issue I have. It takes too much energy for me, personally, to keep track of any archer I'm in view of and what they're doing to defend myself in the optimal way. I can manage with most melee encounters, but keeping focus on archers is just too much for me. People can call it skill issue all the want, but it simply makes the game less enjoyable for me.

[vagrant eagle]

i have no clue why this is being talked for 30 minutes

[lapis cipher]

old archer thread got revived

[lost hill]

hail hydra, there is a good chunk of the community that dislikes the current state of archers

[inner pecan]

But the point was he didnt need to swing and he pulled himself out of position while swinging. You pay attention to the video he played it great by keeping that knight in between himself and that archer. But then he burned his stamina for no reason and then pulled himself out of position to swing when he didnt need too. This video actually proves what we been saying works

[lapis cipher]

but the discussion seems a bit more productive and less asinine bickering this time

[inner pecan]

As long as ziggy and keeper stay out then it stays productive lol

[vagrant eagle]

i fine archers mostly fine, i just dont like that some warbow users range far, so far the community seems to see archers bad in all directions but i dont see it besides aim assist being annoying from newb ps+ archers spamming 1 second draws

[lost hill]

even if he didnt "need" to swing.. he could have been punished weather he riposted

being out of stam has nothing to do with blocking an arrow with a shield.

[lapis cipher]

most of the bickering I scrolled through was keeper and anyone who disagreed with him

but that's off topic

[inner pecan]

That was the other issue i pointed out he burnt his stamina for no reason. He was blocking when the archer was behnd the knight

[vagrant eagle]

most of the suggestions for archer nerfs are too unreasonable in my opinion

[lost hill]

because that archer can slip in a shot at any time. he knows how much of the archer HE can see, but he doesnt know how much the archer can see

[inner pecan]

I just think the archers are fine where they at i disagree for a nerf or a buff

[lost hill]

a rework is more what a lot of us are pushing for

[lapis cipher]

Burning his stamina wasn't what got him killed though. Obviously not optimal play and a mistake, but not the cause of the death. Would have made the subsequent 1v2 harder had he not died there.

[vagrant eagle]

you shouldn't be nerfing archers over all, just finding a counter for the better archer uses abusing the very long range or aim assist if u hate it that much.

[lapis cipher]

tbh I don't think anything ever can be done about my personal gripes with archers, which is why I tend to stay out of these

[inner pecan]

He cant slip in a shot if the knight is between them or he be hitting the knight that

[lost hill]

how long has the game been out?

and people still complain about archers, almost seems like people arent able to find a "counter"

[vagrant eagle]

keeper is good for example ranging far af and killing people without likely dying because he sits near his spawn, encourge him to just leave that area and get closer for a reason is my point

[lost hill]

an opening can appear at any time. also jump shots

[lapis cipher]

since my method would effectively be "I don't like projectiles therefore remove all" which is obviously selfish of me to ask

[inner pecan]

There were actually good complaints tho which is why they got nerfed especially the crossbow. That did need a nerf

[lost hill]

nerfing the class isnt introducing counterplay. its only reducing the effectiveness of the class, its a bandaid for a much bigger issue

[vagrant eagle]

i would just say the best nerfs you can throw in against archers is reduce spam draw time or reduce aim assist, add a overall auto balance system so good archer players dont change from defense to attackers

not only archers but all over us in general

[inner pecan]

He risks again hitting the knight. Again watch the video he did not need to block. You can paint what ever picture you want about that position, he had it and was doing it right till he burned his stamina and opened himself up

[lapis cipher]

I was a huge fan of pre nerf crossbow headshots.

[vagrant eagle]

heavy crossbow wont be a thing cuz community will destroy tornbanner in a witch hunt

[inner pecan]

The team switching actually someone posted that showing people all switching to mason side just cause its more preferable to be on that side in TO.

[lapis cipher]

poor map design, or an inherit flaw of TO game modes if you ask me

[lost hill]

too many people look at a situation and say "you could have done X, you should have done Y"

but the point stands, he had a shield. and was still able to be hit by arrows

ziggy is a good player can could have won that 1v2. but the archer devalued his skill by hitting him with something that he cant active parry

he even had the shields. but as pointed out, he burned through his stamina holding block to make sure he didnt get it... proving that shields only DELAY getting shot , because you cant risk getting too low on stamina in the middle of a fight

[inner pecan]

Yeah there is a lot of issues

[vagrant eagle]

didnt that arrow hit his arm in a swing animation

[lapis cipher]

it'd tell you if I were on desktop and allowed to change the playback speed

thanks twitch

[vagrant eagle]

u can

not on twitch but u can download it, in his swing it hits his swinging weapon arm,, and hits his elbow

oh nvm u can on twitch actually too

[lapis cipher]

I'm not using my phone's storage space for something like that

[lost hill]

this is my point. people are going frame by frame trying to justify the "mistatkes"

the mistake was playing chiv 2 when the devs wont look at the issue that is archery and how it devalues skill

[inner pecan]

Again its his play style and how he played was the cause of him getting hit. The video shows ( on repeat now ) he played it right by putting someone in between him and the archer. Your just at this point saying " He had a shield and died to an archer " but not looking into the video see why he died to that archer. Others are here saying the same thing he just messed up and it was working fine till he opened himself up to that. You say he didnt have stamina to reposite but the vanguard missed and he then decided to strike. Also he would of had stamina if he didnt burn it up. You say he burned it up so the archer wouldnt hit him yet the archer was behind the knight which he couldnt shoot at him. If anything this video proves that what we been saying works till you stop doing it.

[inner pecan]

shows it hit his right hand

[lost hill]

thats the thing.. it works.. till it doesnt.

the knight was between them. okay, yeah that keeps him from getting hit.. but that knight can dodge at ANY TIME.. and he's open to being shot again

the archer could move AT ANY TIME

when someone can find a counter that doesnt require your opponents cooperation. THEN we might have a better understanding

[vagrant eagle]

factor in ping and its not really too off, or aim assist. either way without either issue it wouldve hit ziggys other arm, could not shield that in any way

servers are breaky as recently

[inner pecan]

My guy its called moving with the movement idk why your still trying to paint another picture. It does work and it never stopped working till you stop doing it lol. I use Maul a 2 handed weapon and im telling you excatly how to do it / how i do it. I never have issues and im more open to being hit since i have no shield. People that actually look at the video will say he plays it right besides burning his stamina and opening himself up like that.

im not going on repeat with this lol

even others are saying the same thing

[lost hill]

moving with the movement? as in, matching the opponents movement in order to keep the knight between you and the archer?

have you ever heard of this thing called "positioning" because its JUST AS IMPORTANT in melee fights

if that was another melee player, he would have had a better chance of the 1v3, but notice that only 2 opponents were in range, the archer was safe behind his teammates. under no threat

the biggest issue that i personally have with archer IS HOW FUCKING SAFE an archer is, especially in 32v32... a single person between you and that archer, and youre not killing the archer alone

not only can archers hit through a held block, but you cant hit them back

[vagrant eagle]

im convinced this guy really hates archers after one tbagged him or something

[lost hill]

and im convinced that people who think archer is fine are just gaslighting and dont actually understand the depth of the gameplay

[lapis cipher]

I'm convinced that this is going to go nowhere for the next 2 hours.

[atomic stratus]

Archer is fine tho

[brazen olive]

Archers killed my entire family and kicked my puppy

[lost hill]

it never will until people understand theres an issue

the first step to fixing something. is admitting that something is wrong

[vagrant eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/karma-dog-kick-fall-gif-4929124

a puny archer couldnt kick a dog

[lost hill]

look, i'll admit archers are fine, when someone can give me proof that they found a way to kill every archer they see, without dying in the process

[atomic stratus]

Why are you trying to kill every archer you see tho?

[lapis cipher]

I installed cheat engine and can now fly :)

[vagrant eagle]

bros admitting that he's never killed an archer 😅

[lost hill]

because if you dont kill them. they kill everything else.

thats... thats how the game works, if you dont kill your opponent theyre going to kill you

[vagrant eagle]

maybe dont run straight in a line if they are far

[lost hill]

bros admitting that he cant do it.

[vagrant eagle]

bro i have a yt of clips of me killing multiple archers just flanking them or using a throwing knife or throwing anything, even dodging

[atomic stratus]

How good are the archers you’re going up against? The archers I’ve played with/against don’t do shit, they’re just there in the back line

[lost hill]

this is the issue. too many people gaslight because they refuse to admit they too have issues with archers

[worn marsh]

Only reason I moved so far back was because they took away 40% of the Warbow ammo.

Now they made it where ammo isn’t an issue and you can still range fine.

It’s a perfect example of making a problem worse by asking melee mains how to balance something.

[vagrant eagle]

if ur a fan of ziggy urself you can see ziggy killing archers too, they arent imposssible to kill like u imagine

[lost hill]

ive played against good archers, and bad archers

even if they only land 1 out of 10 shots.. thats damage that they werent in risk of taking in return. and it was unblockable without a shield

[lost hill]

you do realize that the warbow and longbow are only a single arrow off of actual balance.. right?

[vagrant eagle]

if u fight a really good archer that can tell from ur footstep sounds, then ur at this point gonna be both meleeing, if you lose thats ur own fault

[worn marsh]

You don’t know what you are talking about please stop.

[atomic stratus]

Yes, and now that you’re being shot at, you retreat, heal, and push up with your team again

[lost hill]

cool, you pushed with your team. and ran into THEIR team

i can say anything to make it look balanced on paper.. do that in practice and itll be a different story

[vagrant eagle]

https://youtu.be/9IDsNgN079c video starts off with me killing archers btw

[lost hill]

its math keeper. try doing some

all you have to calculate is the max damage per ammo capacity. warbow would need 1 more arrow, or longbow would need 1 less in order to do as close to even damage

[atomic stratus]

I mean, archers lose immense value when there frontline is getting crushed. If you can’t even take their frontline, you shouldn’t complain about archers

[lost hill]

the entire team loses immense value when the frontline gets crushed

now.. what happens when their frontline is just as good. or worse.. even better?

[lapis cipher]

I'm pretty sure everyone loses immense value when their frontline is getting crushed

[vagrant eagle]

2nd clip shows me doing a funni to an archer tho

[worn marsh]

Again read what I said and why they made Warbow ammo irrelevant.

Stop rushing to correct someone when you aren’t even understanding the damn context.

[lapis cipher]

considering you're either part of the backline who needs the frontline to survive, or you're the frontline

[brazen olive]

Nah you can 1vx huge amounts of players as a melee class

[vagrant eagle]

can confirm, ayla usually dies in swarms of players

[brazen olive]

There's a reason archers are more often played on offense

[lost hill]

im 20 seconds in. and "yOuRe OuT oF PoSiTiOn"

notice that youre having to fight alot of enemies alone

[vagrant eagle]

ok and?

you think an archers gonna be 4ft from you?

[lapis cipher]

You can, most of the rest of your team probably can't

[lost hill]

so... you agree that you have to put yourself in great risk.. in order to kill and archer.

[atomic stratus]

If they’re frontline is worse, archers should be getting killed when/if you push through.
If they’re of equal skill lvl, it’s just a battle of which team can survive the longest.
If they’re better, good luck

[worn marsh]

You have to put yourself at risk to kill anyone lmao

[lapis cipher]

I could hold the attention of 4 people for maybe 10 seconds if I'm playing as well as I can. That could make a difference, but not when the rest of my team is eating more shit than I.

[vagrant eagle]

there will be risk attacking someone not at the front of an enemy, thats the point of being melee and an archer, ur argument is that they aren't literally at the frontline where they can be shot easier or meleed

be urself an archer and learn why they do that

[lost hill]

exactly, if the archers frontline is able to hold, the archer get to rain in arrows for free

very few maps have flank routes for you to close the gap. and spawn waves often get you killed, even if you manage to kill the archer

[vagrant eagle]

OH IM A LOW HP MAN WITH A WEAPON TO RANGE IM GONNA GET SUPER CLOSE WITH MY 1-2 SHOT HP

[worn marsh]

Like it’s a team based class game and you are depending on your team to play their classes to counter theirs?

[lost hill]

youre right...

its almost like i pointed that out earlier

archers are too safe, for their damage to not be blockable

[worn marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/you-keep-using-that-word-serious-what-you-think-it-means-gif-14679437

You keep saying “ Not blockable”

[vagrant eagle]

lol i wish i could see his point but i cant

[lapis cipher]

true he has no idea what "you're" means

[atomic stratus]

Yeah I feel that with all these specific 1 to 1 scenarios with archers, ppl are forgetting it’s a team game. No one needs to make it their personal mission to take out archers who are probably not even doing that good

[lost hill]

holy shit. i found the issue

you all are focused on the bad, default archers that have no clue what game theyre playing. let alone how to play it well

play against someone who can also fight in melee, and that becomes HELL to try to take them out

[worn marsh]

Ya a big thing they mix up is they are treating every right in a 32v32 as a 1v1 and expect a fair chance to win.

I don’t think they get that it isn’t supposed to favor you all the time or with all classes and that’s why their are options.

[worn marsh]

Goblin has killed me multiple times he knows what he is talking about

[lost hill]

no. im actually doing the opponent. an archer is weakest in a 1v1. (still capable though)

the issue comes with how many of that archers teammates you have to be able to get past. in order to even be a threat to them.

[brazen olive]

Goblin sucks one time I killed him from behind when he wasn't looking

[lost hill]

i said "play against someone who can also fight in melee"

that wasnt refering to you

[worn marsh]

Bless your heart, you think you are a measure of skill and class balance now?

[lost hill]

bless youre heart. youre still dodging the point because you cant handle the fact that youre playing the tutorial while everyone else is playing the game

[vagrant eagle]

you lured me witth ur claws

[worn marsh]

I am ranked like top 10 in cudgel kills bud, you are ranked top 10 in only anti archer post

[vagrant eagle]

nah gotta be #1

[lost hill]

oh i see. we're using a 3rd party website as fact. and using it as a "i know what im talking about" point.

[worn marsh]

#7 guys not playing melee at all

[lost hill]

whats next. "youre not a high enough level to have an opinion"?

[brazen olive]

The weapon stats seem accurate to me

[vagrant eagle]

wdym third party website as fact, its using stats directly from the games files lol'

[atomic stratus]

I mean, you could beat them at their own game. Swap to archer and diff them

[worn marsh]

It pulls from the game itself lol.

Damn man you can’t accept anything

[lapis cipher]

I'm so glad I was correct

[brazen olive]

It's an archer thread, of course

[vagrant eagle]

its not something third party besides the page hosting it, the stats are live and update from ourselves and from the developers design

[brazen olive]

You just have to treat it as good entertainment

[lost hill]

sometimes i do. but personally, i find bow/crossbow archer to be REALLY BORING. because there is no challenge to it

sit back. shoot arrows

[vagrant eagle]

gee what did archers do irl

[atomic stratus]

You don’t need to sit back tho. You could play frontline archer like me. Much more dynamic, and pisses ppl off even more lmao

[lost hill]

gee, what did armor do irl?

[lapis cipher]

according to the last hollywood movie I watched, nothing

[vagrant eagle]

not the point dude 🙂 point is what they are doing is what they are doing. melee people irl fought with weapons, archers fought with ranged weapons at a distance

[worn marsh]

People aren’t peeing or wiping poop on blades to kill from infection if they lost also. Muh realism

[vagrant eagle]

if u want armor as realistic then arcchers wont exist at all

[brazen olive]

New field engineer punji sticks

[lost hill]

why does it piss people off?

because as long as that archer has a teammate between their target and them.. theyre safe from most threats

[vagrant eagle]

i wish siege engineer at least became a class when game released

[lapis cipher]

I wish siege engineers could load flaming ammo into catapults

[worn marsh]

Wait a damn minute.

If a person is using his team to help him do better it is a bad thing?

[lost hill]

wait.. you brought up realism... now youre devaluing realism because it no longer helps your point...

hmmm

[vagrant eagle]

no i brought their point of existance

an archer shoots

[atomic stratus]

Imagine an archer with a warbow just walks up to you in the middle of a fight, and blasts your head and walks over your corpse

[worn marsh]

If you want to bring up realism Knights would die in the Mud and wouldn’t be running for 30 minutes

[vagrant eagle]

you brought in something that isnt done anywhere at all in any game not even kingdom come does it good

[lapis cipher]

idk kingdom come seems to do it pretty well for the npcs

doesn't do shit for me though

[worn marsh]

I think when games have magic horns and magic banners you can’t entertain the realism angle ever.

[vagrant eagle]

kingdom come has done it the best, but it still in terms of realism is pretty weak armor

[lapis cipher]

yeah fuck realism, we should be able to block arrows with the hafts of our halberds

[vagrant eagle]

if we wanted realism, our armor will be gross tight looking too

[lost hill]

i mean.. you can block a javelin..

[worn marsh]

You can reduce their damage by flexing bro

[lapis cipher]

doesn't sound like a block to me

[brazen olive]

A thrown javelin isn't flying nearly as fast as an arrow from a huge ass warbow tho

But this is irrelevant

[vagrant eagle]

archer has low hp, range weapon, far, random: GRRRR WHY ARENT THEY NEXT TO ME WTF, UNBALANCED AF

[brazen olive]

Archers after jumping twice: 🥴

[worn marsh]

PUNY PERSON HAS RANGED WEAPON

WHY DOES MY BIG SWORD NOT REACH

[lost hill]

in order to feel the issues with archer a bit more, i suggest playing skirmisher

you take bonus damage. and cant 1 shot without hitting them in the head with a javelin.

you have the weakest shield in game.. have the same health, and the lowest stamina of all melee/hybrid classes

[vagrant eagle]

archers after one 1 hit

[worn marsh]

Isn’t the best FFA player a skirmisher?

[lost hill]

ah sorry. i thought we were talking about TO. not FFA

[worn marsh]

So it isn’t able to do the same thing there?

[brazen olive]

Skirmisher can't even really be lumped in with the other archer subclasses, also light shield is cracked

[lost hill]

no. its not, the reason is good in FFA. is because it can steal kills easily... in a game mode that is 100% based on kills

[vagrant eagle]

i always loot a light shield and have it unequipped because its for whatever reason a magnet and blocks things that s hould be headshotting you

[brazen olive]

I still desperately want a light shield to go with my rapier

[worn marsh]

So you can’t steal kills in TO? Weird because you can.

I see skirmisher do fine all the time, I guess it’s like what you claimed with Goblin. You just haven’t played with any good ones.

[vagrant eagle]

ill approve only if they add a buckler skin

[brazen olive]

That's what I want... Still, anything is better than rapier with a fucking kite shield, heinous crimes against drip

[vagrant eagle]

i always drop the shield

[lost hill]

what benefit does stealing kills give you in TO?

im consistently top 5 on my team with skirmisher.

but taking bonus damage from archers, without getting any bonus damage of my own. really makes you feel the issue of archers a bit more

[vagrant eagle]

i like the light sshield on my side for fashion purpose and retreating protection

[worn marsh]

TO is TDM with objectives to push the pace, the team with more kills will win the majority of the time until the last unbalanced point.

You kill them in 1 headshot, work on your aim.

[vagrant eagle]

just hitting them in general stuns them

i stun archers all the time throwing knives at them

[brazen olive]

Definitely feel like skirmisher vs other archers is a good matchup provided you aren't across the map

Shield, easy to interrupt their nocking, and superior melee and stamina

[lost hill]

stealing a kill in FFA. puts YOU better off

stealing a kill from your teammates in TO. just means that you got the credit and they didnt.

sure, i can kill an archer with a single headshot.. they can also take warbow and 1 shot me in the chest while im throwing at them

[worn marsh]

What , you finish kills to push the pace. If you can speed up a kill and free them up you do it. Because this will lead to you having an advantage.

It’s pretty clear you want an advantage over archers at all ranges. Because 2/3 isn’t enough for you.

[lost hill]

if it wasnt a full 2 seconds between throwing a javelin and being able to block again.. i would agree

and for the most part, i would say that skirm is probably one of the better classes to pressure an archer, but without headshots. you have to hit them twice with javs,

hitting them isnt an issue. its being able to finish them off since its only 85 damage

[lost hill]

youre a warbow archer.. right?

i mean, surely you understand that you can kill a skirmisher in a single shot. from a much further range... right??

[brazen olive]

Idk, with light shield the moment you get into throwing distance you're forcing them to switch to melee and as such they forfeit all their advantages

[worn marsh]

Yes that would be the 1/3 range where they have the advantage.

You understand in Mid and Short you have the advantage correct?

[lost hill]

to a degree. but with skirmisher, you dont have the stamina to 1vX. meaning you tend to have to keep your distance aswell to avoid getting singled out from melee players

[worn marsh]

So free damage and using your teammates to engage them? Weird

[lost hill]

do i though?

because even a cudgel can block 100% of the damage of a javelin..

[brazen olive]

Tbh I think skirmisher (and all archer classes) should have reduced stamina cost for dodging, they have the least armor of anyone...

You would still have to nail your counters but you could more easily position in 1vx

[lost hill]

i tossed out that idea. or give skirm the MAA passive of 50% reduced dodge cooldown.

[lost hill]

but.. i thought earlier we discussed that i have to keep an enemy between me and the archer to avoid getting shot

but now i have to position to 1vX while i do that too?

[vagrant eagle]

a few people have agreed on buffing skirmisher because it is a lil weak, but not crazy changes. either way ur class is just ur class, if u go forward and try to kill a long range archer and get pushed by his teammates ur class is already a class that wants to avoid melee somewhat

[brazen olive]

Huh? I wasn't even really active here earlier

Ideally you keep the archer and any melee players targetting you at the same angle, dodge buffs would help with that

[lost hill]

i have a thread about the issues i see with skirm and what changes could be fitting to solve some of those issues

being a hybrid class that wants to avoid melee (at least keeping it to 1v1-1v2)... without having the range pressure that a warbow archer has ... the pressure is good, but the issue comes from skirm's damage being 100% blockable, even by active parry

[vagrant eagle]

you drain more stam in a block hit tho

[lost hill]

health damage>stam damage

[vagrant eagle]

well thats if you let them get near you and kill you, thats the point of a range weapon

you have ammo for a reason

if they see you and block you, they block you, thats a counter

would suck if they couldnt and just get heavily damaged

[lost hill]

as a skirm. you have SOME ammo.. 5 javs and 6 axes isnt much and for some objectives. you have to play close to a resupply if you want to lean into that ranged playstyle

[lost hill]

this.. this right here is the issue with archer

this is why you dont see many complaints about skirmisher, but you see a lot of archer complaints

[vagrant eagle]

its ammo regardless and strong ones, if u want more ammo go as an archer then, the downside is that u wont be as close and damage as high

or go ambusher if u perfer knife/combat

[worn marsh]

He wants his class to be the 1 for all. Not the 2/3

[vagrant eagle]

they are likely to miss vs you who are up close to crowds of people though

[lost hill]

being close is a negative, not a positive, (at least for a 90 hp class)

an arrow archer is going to get a lot more value out of just sitting back and lobbing in shots, even if theyre not landing killing blows. theyre putting in damage that isnt easily returned, nor is easy to intentionally block

[vagrant eagle]

then go further, im sure ur javelins will hit "something"

throwing is close range, bow is the overall range weapon

[lost hill]

while i understand your point. i find it to be null. as an archer can just pump damage in

and i do sit back and just lob javs on some objectives. but with only 5, i have to position near a resupply

[vagrant eagle]

and a archer will have to also be near a resupply or go back to one when ammo is running low, ur point just isnt there as a skirmmisher class, you need buffs but it will always remain the same of your class vs a bow class being far from each other

at that point u wanna just join or be cautious to not be targeted by an archer

if u wanna counter archers more likely you gotta go a class that will do better flanking or killing them back

[lost hill]

the way i see archer, is similar to the "DPS" role of most mmos

your frontline is your tank, your job as an archer, is to just pump out damage, get kills where you can. but just removing health from enemies is going to be valuable

if you notice a problem player (someone good in 1vX) then you can just completely devalue their skill by pumping damage into them that they cant return, nor can they easily avoid

[vagrant eagle]

"dps"

[lost hill]

to counter archers, you need to be another archer

the maps are quite limited to flank routes, and deserter zones really hurt that playstyle.. and in 32v32. its rare to have an open path to the archer, even if you take the flanks

[vagrant eagle]

the amount of times ive seen keeper in matches he is 1sst or 2nd place but never more kills or takedowns vs anyone because melee players are hitting more than 1-4 people at a time, keeper is hitting one

[brazen olive]

Still think archers are more akin to supports, you will never thrive as an archer if your frontline is getting shit on

They tip the scales for melee that are already fighting

You will have a bigger impact on a weaker team as a melee player

[lost hill]

melee damage is blockable, arrows require a set of circumstances to avoid the damage

thats the tradeoff... also, that melee player who is hitting 1-4 people.. is able to be hit by at least 2 of those in return.

[vagrant eagle]

they kinda screw the team honestly though if its a vip objective ngl most of the time unless big brain archer shooting argon in the head from a window

[vagrant eagle]

not quite a trade off if u have a shield

and thats the risk going without a shield in the front line in the first place

[lost hill]

a dps wont do well if theyre tank is dead...

[vagrant eagle]

i can say for sure more people throw shit at me and i die vs archers shooting me dead

[brazen olive]

Nor will the supports

[vagrant eagle]

ur just trying too go overboard and use anything to legitmitize archers are too overpowered

[lost hill]

if shields werent liabilities. i think more people would take them

theyre effectively an extra stamina bar. but WHEN they break. you take a free hit.. in a teamfight, that slight opening. could be your swift death.

[lost hill]

im not saying theyre overpowered. im saying theyre fucking cancer to play against.

[vagrant eagle]

my god what did i just read

[lost hill]

re-read it. because i feel youre going to tell me to "just counter" to save the shield's health

[worn marsh]

He is talking about where you called a shield a liability lol

[lost hill]

i mean. wouldnt you call something that youd have to be doing some wicked mental math to be able to tell when its going to break

and if youre off on your math, youre going to take damage because you got stunned?

[vagrant eagle]

i see shield that is nearly broken and cracked up

i throwit away, loot another shield

[thorn robin]

The issue is that he didn’t dodge the archer

[lost hill]

throw it, now archers can shoot you again

loot another shields from...?? your ass? because unless someone else took a shield and died with it still in good health. youre just back to square 1

[lost hill]

nah, we gotta use the "just dont try to kill the archer" line of thinking

[unreal patrol]

I'm here pretty late

what was I suppopsed to do in that clip, just keep holding block with no stamina?

[vagrant eagle]

ok buddy ur either 1. never played the damn game enough to realize half ur team has a shield or a quarter and die so often with one same with their team, 2. shield props all over, 3. ur shield isnt gonna fucking break by arrows at all often, its gonna break from melee which in most cases you will have a time to just dodge and throw it at ur enemy, if an archer is in the way either improvise or ur dead either way with a stun. the shield breaking stunning u is whatever, you are buffed with one in teh first place already. you arent forced to keep it till it breaks

[brazen olive]

Did you win?!

[unreal patrol]

Oh I won the comp matches yes

[brazen olive]

:D

[unreal patrol]

So what was I supposed to do in that clip?

[thorn robin]

Dodge

[unreal patrol]

no stamina, held block with my shield up

to keep my shield up

if i blocked the attack, id also be disarmed because I had no stamina

i also tried to keep myself behind the vanguard so i didnt get shot

the one moment i lowered my shield, i got shot

because I had to, really

[vagrant eagle]

conjure a dark servant from the dark lord (a twitch follower) to take the sacrifice of an arrow for his master

[unreal patrol]

and the archer wouldve chased me if I ran

[thorn robin]

Sounds like a lotta hooplah

[unreal patrol]

and the melee players likely wouldve thrown everything they had if i ran, if they didnt get chase mechanic

[vagrant eagle]

i wouldve dodged tho realistically

[unreal patrol]

the shield only protects the shield area if it was on my back

[lost hill]

sounds like all the "should have done X should have done Y" only works on paper

[unreal patrol]

so what im trying to figure out is what I did wrong there

[thorn robin]

Yeah dodging is really easy

[unreal patrol]

I mean, maybe someone here knows better than me

I just won two competitive matches and I have over 6000 hours in this game

and I'm the best rapier player in NA

but who knows, maybe I have something I can learn and do better

[vagrant eagle]

no ziggy u wouldve died eitehr way, u werent looking at the archer to duck properly, it was gg'd either way

[thorn robin]

But not the best dodger in NA

[unreal patrol]

um ackshually, according to my chivalry 2 ranked stat card, i am

🤓

[vagrant eagle]

ur stat card doesnt say ur married yet you mentioned you had a wife while fighting bugs

[unreal patrol]

this is the past

thats the future

[vagrant eagle]

archers turned into bugs, it is canonically written

[unreal patrol]

I'll be returning to the future on thursday to fight the bug menace

anyway back to my point, what should I have done there?

I know the real answer, it was "never play in that spot to begin with" or "get lucky"

Like, technically speaking, if I uninstalled the game, I wouldn't get shot by archers since I didnt show up

so thats a good anti-archer technique

[vagrant eagle]

idk man, wasnt me that questioned how u played, i just said u were in wrong place wrong time and just a simple shot in the arm

it was someone named ahhh and someone else

[unreal patrol]

maybe if I was born in September instead of August I wouldn't be playing Chivalry 2 so I wouldn't have gotten shot

though that clip gives some real benefit to the claim of my shield rework

if you could hold parry and lose less stamina with shields, itd be safer to "just keep my shield up"

I think it's very interesting watching Keeper, a guy who only plays archer, educate others on how to not get shot by archers

which the solution is pretty much always "don't play"

[wise kraken]

[brazen olive]

I don't think high lvl melee players will ever be satisfied with the existence of archer tbh, just a clash of playstyles and approaches to the game

[worn marsh]

Dude swings twice dropping his block and really ask “what was I supposed to do”.

You can’t help people who can’t admit their flaws

There is a reason he Que dodges I guess

[late forum]

I love when people down play archers

[worn marsh]

I love when people make them gods

[wise kraken]

just hold block 🤪

[fathom aurora]

Almost like archers can put in a lot more pressure for.... no reason?

[fathom aurora]

If it interacted with the melee system at all it'd be fine.

[inner pecan]

Archers are meant for range not melee 🤨.

[lost hill]

its not being in melee range. its that the archer gets to ignore core mechanics of the game like block and such

what badger is saying, is that when an archer is looking at you. you have to play differently. just the threat of being shot forces you to position a certain way. forces you to hold block and drain your stamina until you can get something to break line of sight. etc

[worn marsh]

They have to know core mechanics and archery mechanics….

Don’t you get to ignore Archer mechanics being a Melee main? Being a Jav main? The answer is yes.

When a Melee gets close to you , you also have to play differently. It’s wild watching you guys try to spin this so hard.

[worn marsh]

Don’t you get to ignore the Archer mechanics/system? Wait it’s only ok when one class gets to ignore mechanics!

[lost hill]

archer mechanics? you mean drop and travel time.. the same things that all thrown weapons also experience?? there isnt a mechanic exclusive to archery, holding an arrow is the same as holding block

when a melee GETS CLOSE. you have to play differently... thank you for once again. proving the point.

an archer LOOKING AT YOU changes how you play.. a melee GETTING CLOSE to you changes how an archer plays

its wild watching how hard youre trying to gaslight everyone.

[worn marsh]

It’s clear you don’t know Archer mechanics. Typical and to compare to thrown weapons? How hilarious.

It’s clear you are ok with ignoring a whole system of leading, drop, draw strength, pulls, knowing 1 ways, invisible walls (on every map) and optimal locations. It must be nice to only have to know 1/2 the game.

I haven’t gaslight anyone, I guarantee if we played 10 TO games with me being Melee and you Archer I would beat you 9/10 or 10/10.

That is because you have to know more than Archery mechanics to succeed.

All you know is mediocre melee and how to spam complaints about a class you can’t play well.

Imagine only learning half a game and getting upset. Lmao

“Holding an Arrow is the same as holding block” this is the GOAT of ignorant archer claims. Thank you

[lost hill]

would you care to explain how an arrow and a thrown weapon differ?.. or how the concept of holding a block compared to holding an arrow, since both drain stamina

1.leading, drop: thrown weapons have those too.
2. draw strength??... yeah thats just a basic damage rampup. not a hard concept to understand
3. pulls? like changing your aim last second?... yeah i totally dont have to do that to hit someone with a javelin. youre right, everyone just eats them because they feel bad for me
4. one ways effect throwing weapons too... and its not that difficult to understand 1ways. i utilize them without even realizing it half the time because its common sense to stand behind cover
5. invisable walls... also effect throwing weapons

its nice to see that you think youre doing something super special... when in reality. youre only using a base line knowledge. claiming it to be something MUCH more than what it truely is

and hmm.. you wouldnt duel me. but now youre giving out another challenge saying that you would beat me...

[worn marsh]

Again I gave you the roadmap to a duel, you have chose to ignore it and repeatedly just spread misinformation.

It has to get tiring with your failed actual gas lighting?

It’s Father’s Day, go spend it with your dad instead of complaining about a video game.

I’m done teaching you today son. Enjoy the rest of your day being irrationally angry.

[lost hill]

you didnt address the difference between thrown weapons and arrows

please. i would like to be educated from the best archer in the world.. no.. the UNIVERSE!

[fathom aurora]

Well thrown weapons can be blocked and used as melee, they interact a whole lot more with the combat system in this game than arrows that just... do damage.

@lost hill kibbles'n'bits needs his team to hide behind, that's why he won't duel you.

Also equating archery to half the game is frankly hilarious, and really radiates a total lack of understanding. Which is a bit sad considering your hours.

[lost hill]

i knew i had him cornered as soon as he said "im done teaching you today son"... running away from a lost arguement because he knows he cant talk himself out of it without blantantly ignoring the points made

typically kooper

[worn marsh]

The comparison I listed was what Melee ignores , I do forget I am talking to someone who can’t follow along well.

Projectiles vs Arrows are different as well. Let me help you understand what I mean inside the brackets.

• Trajectory (How you throw)
• Speed (How fast you throw)
• Range (How far you throw)
• hit box (How large of a hit box it has)
• effective distance (Ideal range to play effectively and not feed)
• Anti-Melee (this means it’s for killing non archers ideally)

I hope I did a good job of helping you understand son. As always, it’s been a pleasure helping a new player overcome his ignorance of a class, god bless.

[lost hill]

ah. so a warbow and a longbow cant be compared to each other either.. since they differ ni all those aspects too

arrows are meant to kill archers, because they are ment to do bonus damage.. but they also cant be blocked with a weapon like everything else in the game.. so theyre also anti melee

you litterally told me what i pointed out to you already. thanks dad

now i wish you were like my actual dad and in the forever box

[brazen olive]

Man, I can't believe this thread hasn't been closed... That's kinda messed up

On a side note, thx for reminding me it's Father's day!!

[worn marsh]

Warbow / Longbow can’t be compared? They both have the same mechanics lol. Which is clear you don’t understand.

You keep incorrectly saying “Arrows can’t be blocked” you either don’t understand that word or want to keep your failed gas lighting up. Do better son.

I’m sorry you want me dead, but I can’t help your immaturity.

[lost hill]

but hey differ in the following

1. trajectory
2. speed
3. range
4. effective distance
5. anti melee

5/6 of the points you made, are different between longbow and warbow

and keeper. .my dead daddy keeper... im glad i took mom's side for inteligence

ARROWS CANNOT BE BLOCKED WITH A WEAPONS.. you cannot disprove what its fact. im sorry, stop trying.

[fathom aurora]

Don't be silly Random, you can be a jedi with the force and predict when the archer will fire the unreadable arrow.

By, you know, looking into the future

[lost hill]

i actually found the issue

keeper doesnt know the difference between a block and a counter.

i mean. sounds bout right for a warbow main that stands 40m+ away

[fathom aurora]

He doesn't seem to realise that melee has a lot more mechanics than archery. Or what gaslighting means. So it tracks

[worn marsh]

Do you not understand what mechanics means? Don’t answer because it’s clear you don’t.

Longbow can be Anti-Archer and was until the Warbow was released, your ignorance is showing.

A shield is a weapon in this game since you can hit with it. A shield as a weapon is actually , it was made famous by this guy!

I’m sorry you are having trouble son.

[fathom aurora]

And shields are weapons now

[worn marsh]

Can you do damage with it?

[fathom aurora]

dung is also a weapon

can't block an arrow with it

nor a chicken

or a crate

[worn marsh]

Weird as always, the facts are on my side.

[fathom aurora]

or fists

or any two hander

[lost hill]

i understand what mechanics means. and i guess im about to have to bust out the crayons to draw you picture because you dont..

longbow WAS anti archer... until a better anti archer weapon was released

shields are not weapons.. you cannot slash/stab/overhead with a shield..

if youre a troll, props for holding up the charade for this long... if youre not trolling and you actually think youre right.. please for the love of god. you need help

[worn marsh]

All it takes is 1 weapon to prove him wrong. Which the shield does.

It was and still can be. ✅

Shields are weapons as provided by the definition ✅

You being wrong as always ✅

[lost hill]

oh i see. youre so desperate to talk yourself out of this.. that youre pulling up definitions. that dont even fit the mechanics of the game.

[fathom aurora]

picking out one bit of semantics and hinging an entire argument on it makes you look like a fucking idiot

[worn marsh]

Lmao did you just say I am using the definition because I am desperate? Lmao sorry for knowing what a weapon 💀💀💀💀💀

[lost hill]

is a castle a weapon?

[fathom aurora]

it does damage if you headbut it

[worn marsh]

As always boys, it’s fun to teach children. But correcting you is tiring.

I’m off to go enjoy my day of not being wrong, I suggest you do your best to do the same.

[fathom aurora]

so yes!

[worn marsh]

FYI (I left after correcting you)

[lost hill]

exactly. but everyone with a brain knows that a castle isnt a weapon..

[worn marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/captain-america-marvel-gif-26117245

[lost hill]

fyi, you left after NOT correcting me... you left because we pointed out. that you are showing your ingorance and running because you cant swallow your pride enough to admit when youre wrong

[worn marsh]

What’s captains weapon lmao

[fathom aurora]

you have to have very specific groupings for kobblebot 3000 to understand

he gets confused by normal conversations

throw out an idiom and he shits blood for a week

[worn marsh]

It has to suck trying to attack me in game and out of game and fail.

[lost hill]

honsetly, i think the mods are getting to much entertainment out of it.. why else hasnt keeper been banned from the discord?

[lost hill]

i cant attack you in game. you wont duel me.

[fathom aurora]

lmao

[worn marsh]

If only I told you how

Maybe you understood that as well as what a weapon is

Makes sense

[lost hill]

ah. so i see, your ingorance is your weapon

[worn marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/the-princess-bride-inigo-montoya-meaning-are-you-sure-of-that-gif-7536490

[worn marsh]

Take a nap bud.

[lost hill]

disproven.... a shield is only considered a weapon, when used as a weapon... the game limits us from being able to attack with it, therfore it is not a weapon.

[worn marsh]

You can throw it which causes damage correct?

[lost hill]

nope, it can be blocked. which doesnt do damage

[worn marsh]

It can be blocked from causing damage?

[lost hill]

yes. it can.. with any WEAPON in game.

[worn marsh]

Thanks

[lost hill]

did you really not know that you can block thrown weapons?... yeah. im damn glad i took after mom's side then.

keeper talks about not knowing 1/2 the game.. but didnt know you could block thrown weapons

[worn marsh]

No it was to prove that they can do damage and that they are a weapon.

You said they could , so they qualify. Thanks man.

It was called a leading question

[lost hill]

actually. by your own logic.. since it has to be able to do damage...

an arrow is the BEST weapon in game. since it bypasses the most defenses out of any other weapon in game.. so it really should be nerfed.

[fathom aurora]

that sounds fair

[lost hill]

thank you for once again. proving that archer is problematic and should be changed.

[worn marsh]

I’m still amazed you didn’t realize I walked you into a shield being a weapon.

[fathom aurora]

oooo, hes so clever though. give him 5 hes gotta rub one out to his own reflection

[lost hill]

i still cant believe that your own point is a counterpoint against you.

[worn marsh]

At no point was anything I said a counterpoint to myself. You are just throwing out shower thoughts and thinking it’s relevant.

[lost hill]

no. you pointed out that in order for it to be a weapon, it needs to do damage

an arrow has the capacity to bypass core mechanics of the game, meaning its the most consistent damage source due to that bypass

meaning, that a bow firing an arrow, is the strongest weapon in game. since it has the ability to bypass all but 3 weapons in game.. and it can situationally bypass those 3.

[fathom aurora]

Once again kips has derailed the convo about the semantics of the word "shield" to completely cover up that he's wrong. A masterful piece of dumbassery, I have to say.

[lost hill]

meaning, there isnt a weapon in game that is as strong as an arrow.

[worn marsh]

Also by this logic the Catapult would be the best weapon in the game since it can kill the most in one shot and no defense.

#teachingmomment

Or fire pot

[fathom aurora]

Well if I could whip a catapult out my pocket and use it anywhere on the map I might want to defend that ability too

[lost hill]

it would be. but it cannot be carried. nor is it always avaliable, so those circumstances have to be met for it to be the best... the catapult. SITUATIONALLY is the best weapon in game

fire pot is the same. but with a much more limited range

[worn marsh]

He didn’t set the parameters on where or how. So by his logic it is.

#teaching

[lost hill]

so, out of all the consistently use weapons.. the bow is the strongest

[fathom aurora]

Both, are of course, very readable and you have the ability to defend against it (move)

[worn marsh]

Moving the goal post is embarrassing

[fathom aurora]

less so for an arrow at mach 3 that can be anywhere on the map

[lost hill]

and youre still able to show your face??

you litterally pull out a definition to try and prove a point that a shield is a weapon just to counter the point that a weapon cannot block an arrow

[worn marsh]

Sounds like you guys are trying to run from his claim.

Well that’s 3 arguments I shut down, that’s plenty for the day.

Call your dads or send him a prayer. God bless and try to be a better person and not so angry about a game boys.

[lost hill]

because we all know the truth

you know how strong archer is, and the limited counterplay... but you get yourself off by thinking youre actually good at the game by abusing poor balance

WE ALL CAN SEE IT

[fathom aurora]

He should know when goal posts are being moved as he is a professional goal post mover

[lost hill]

ah, but you havnt. you still havnt proven how thrown weapons are different than arrows... mechanics wise.

[fathom aurora]

pure delusion, it's sad tbh

[lost hill]

idk if im going to have to pay the mods to do their jobs or what. but someone who is THIS poor-faith'd about a discussion. shouldnt be able to partake in it.

[fathom aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/my-job-here-is-done-bye-done-gif-14879937

https://tenor.com/view/sailor-moon-but-you-didnt-do-anything-gif-15435282

kandahar thinking he's won an argument by picking on semantics and derailing a thread

https://tenor.com/view/nipple-sexy-horny-gif-15247398

[worn marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/rpx_syria-mic-drop-gif-19149907

• Google explaining what a real weapon is

#1110814303692537856 message

• shield being used a weapon

#😂︱chival-meme message

• Projectile difference

#1110814303692537856 message

• Melee vs Archer difference (additional mechanics Archers have to learn)

#1110814303692537856 message

[lost hill]

you explained the projectile difference. but that also applies between longbow/warbow/crossbow

you still need to explain to me the difference between them. a mechanical difference. not a usability difference.

[worn marsh]

Not chasing an additional tangent.

Have a good day son.

[lost hill]

also. there arently really. "additional mechanics archer have to learn".. that dont apply to EVERYONE.. they might need to be a bit better at it. but there isnt any additions for the mechanics required..

in fact. there is actually a reduction in mechanics required because you can bypass blocks, unless its a shield.

[vagrant eagle]

Just a reminder yall talked for 2 hours 👉👈

[lost hill]

okay. reminder than people are still gaslighting others into thinking archer is balanced doesnt need to be changed.

[fathom aurora]

this is also not gaslighting

[lost hill]

that is gaslighting. trying to convince someone that THEY are the issue in the situation. rather than something else being wrong is gaslighting.

[fathom aurora]

disagreeing isn't gaslighting. For all his awful qualities, Krabapple hasn't tried to make anyone question their own sanity. Well, except those that try to argue with him

[lost hill]

he is gaslighting... i promise you

[fathom aurora]

he's basically saying "skill issue", which isn't gaslighting, it's a disagreement

[lost hill]

yet the whole "i pointed that out, scroll up. no i wont link it".. thats fucking gaslighting.

keeper is scum. and the fact that the mods of this server are too god damn fuckign stupid to right click his name and click "ban".. proves that this entire fucking community is fucked. its fucked all way from the dev team.. to the mods.. to the community..

this game is FUCKED because people wont do their fucking job

[fathom aurora]

that part is true at least

[fathom aurora]

I might keep a closer watch then. Tbh I've mostly been replying to you replying to kopples

[lost hill]

@fathom aurora proof right here. click half of those links. and they wont take you to what he's claiming he addressed

[worn marsh]

@tall hound @brave arch @frail hedge if talked like this about anyone and especially the mods I would be timed out for a year. Why is it they just to keep throwing out all this with no involvement?

What happens to that claim “we don’t enforce the rules differently Keeper”?

[lost hill]

or.. he'll say something like "youre just bad, archer is fine".. and use that as "ive already addressed that part".. because his ego outweighs his intelligence and the ability to actually give a counterpoint.

[white osprey]

As a reminder, please block users you do not wish to engage with. Thank you.

[worn marsh]

Proving me right again in this thread. Thanks for that.

[fathom aurora]

Hmm, maybe they don't like you

[worn marsh]

They can be hypocrites, it just validates my claims about them in the past and makes theirs look hilarious.

[lost hill]

maybe. even they can see that keeper constantly baits people in order to pull some sematics in order to act like he's won the debate when he's just copying a definition. ... yet they wont BAN him to make sure its not a repeating issue.. and after however many time-outs keeper has had.. im pretty sure its a consistent issue that they wont just bite the bullet and do what needs to be done.

[worn marsh]

I guess I’m just held to a higher standard than you 2, makes sense.

[lost hill]

i mean. past criminals are often held to a higher standard to the law... so logically it makes sense.

[worn marsh]

They often take pity on those who can’t be expected to control themselves. That is why you 2 and Ziggy get away with more. It would just be rude to hold you accountable in your conditions and I sort of agree.

[lost hill]

or.. here me out

they find it amusing when we corner you into your own point.. and you run away like a bitch because you know that you lost and refuse to admit it

again.. you pointed out FOR me.. that the arrow is the strongest weapon in game that can be equipped and is always avaliable.

[fathom aurora]

I need a timer on how long it takes kapples to play victim again

after dishing out these deep wounding insults

[inner pecan]

I will admit mods tend to favorite people when it comes to the rules i've noticed.

[fathom aurora]

Contrary to popular belief they do have brains, they can see who causes issues

[worn marsh]

Which is hilarious because I called them out in the past and Shovel Girl and the dog mod claimed “we don’t enforce them differently” , but here we see that clearly isn’t true.

[inner pecan]

They see but dont do anything tho.

[worn marsh]

It’s like Reddit mods, they are ok with the rules being broke as long as they like the person.

[inner pecan]

I know they enforce differently it shows lol

[worn marsh]

As long as other people see how bad they are I am fine with them showing their hypocrisy when it comes to me.

[unreal patrol]

I don't know if you'd be able to kill me even once in a duel out of 10 fights. I know you'll jump to the "i perfect you in melee in to" but I think even an irrational man like yourself would understand that if you dont kill the archer in about 2 seconds, hes going to get help from his teammates and that means that you can run away into the crowd of assistance, which causes the melee player to have to make more rash decisions in those 2 seconds. Beating a player in melee without that 2 second time crunch is a significantly different story and honestly, I'm not sure if you could handle it, haha. But I know, you've been challenged before and you'll never step foot in a duel server, you'll say "meet me in to" and then run away if anyone ever gets close.

Kind of a shame that such a well endowed melee player and god tier archer like yourself wont ever go out of their way to prove to everyone how superior you are. 😉

[worn marsh]

Didn’t I perfect you multiple times in TO in Melee? When you missed the charge special to boot.

Embarrassing for Mr. 10,000 hours

I have seen you rage quit more times from me killing you then you have actually killed me in game.

Unblock me or stop tagging me

[fathom aurora]

it's like a chat bot

[worn marsh]

It’s like Ziggy echo

[fathom aurora]

More than one person can dislike you, you make it so easy

[worn marsh]

Go back to his discord and post about me more. At least there your lies don’t get called out.

[fathom aurora]

weird thing to know

[worn marsh]

Weird thing to do

[fathom aurora]

I just enjoy laughing at your antics

[worn marsh]

Ya that means a lot coming from a guy who lies about me a bunch

[fathom aurora]

where's that?

[worn marsh]

I’m not going to link post you will argue about, at least have the integrity to admit you do it.

[fathom aurora]

I don't need to make anything up to laugh at you

[worn marsh]

As expected you lack the integrity to admit it.

[fathom aurora]

lying again? This is unlike you buddy

[worn marsh]

At least like in game and out. Ziggy knows when to quit and run away.

Well expect in that gameplay you linked lol

[fathom aurora]

try that one again in english

[thorn robin]

Chiv playerbase when a medieval game has archers:

[worn marsh]

At least Ziggy knows when to quit and go somewhere else in game and out. This is talking about him quitting games where I kill him multiple times in Melee or Archery. Then when it is here, it is when his lies are questioned in his wall of text.

Where you just keep spamming no matter the amount of embarrassing corrections you get.

[fathom aurora]

what corrections? I don't think you've been correct once

[thorn robin]

I will say that archers in War of the Roses were pretty cool though

[worn marsh]

Your inability to comprehend them doesn’t prevent them from being corrections.

[fathom aurora]

I never got round to that one, a shame it seemed cool

[thorn robin]

Definitely the best archery system in a slasher game imo

[fathom aurora]

that's rich coming from klandestine over here

[thorn robin]

Archers

[worn marsh]

One time an Archer shot a melee player and they didn’t complain.

[fathom aurora]

the type to plant an alt in the server of someone you hate just so you can spy on all the people taking the piss out of you

[worn marsh]

I don’t have an alt there bud, people send me DM’s when you boys talk about me and make up lies lol.

[fathom aurora]

somehow worse

[thorn robin]

Listen folks. I don't play normal archer. Because skirmisher is dumber and therefore more fun for me. But I will say that no matter what archer hate will exist in history

[worn marsh]

I would think talking about me and it being a lie would be, but you go off king.

[fathom aurora]

the hate doesn't have to exist in a melee game though, range can be a part of the system, something actually interesting.

idk what lies you mean bud

[unreal patrol]

It's like I just recited a prophecy, you did exactly what I said you would.

[unreal patrol]

You have been confirmed to have alts, because when I got you banned for random votekicking me, you swapped to an alt to "accidentally shoot me" several times, then that one got banned too.

You are probably the least subtle person I've ever met.

Let's not forget that event happened, by the way. If I really have to, I can go dig up the logs from that event, but I think the idea that I'd be willing to is enough to justify my claims.

[worn marsh]

You haven’t confirmed I have a discord alt ever stop the cap. Also reading what I said will help you avoid that.

You just make up lies and get away with it because of your handicap and that’s wild. It’s the main reason I stopped insulting you, take the clue.

[lost hill]

i mean. you lie about being right.. but when we call you out on it.. we're "anti-archer melee mains"

[worn marsh]

I have covered/corrected your lies today in detail have the maturity to stop spamming me with more lies and misrepresentation.

[fathom aurora]

@lost hill you're right this is gaslighting

[worn marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/spiderman-cap-my-cap-senses-are-tingling-spidey-senses-gif-25195050

[lost hill]

i was trying to tell you. he's actually extremely predictable. but i'll give him credit, he's starting to use gifs. so at least we're getting some flare

[fathom aurora]

He lying again

[lost hill]

i do have him blocked. but the only thing im begging from him. is to drop the act and help us get the game to a heathier. more fun state

[fathom aurora]

I can play archer so neither me or the enemy is having fun

[lost hill]

the main reason i dont play bow. isnt because its hard or whatever.... its because its boring as hell, offers little challenge. and feels like im being rewarded for beginner level plays

[lost hill]

the biggest issue is that keeper has spent too much time on 1 side of the interaction. not able to fully see the other side. leading to this incredible bias against changes being made

you want to feel how bad archer is. play skirmisher, you take extra damage from them

[lost hill]

still dodging the fact that you dont a counterpoint. keeper. not once have i said im a better player. not a single time

but i am atleast man enough to admit when im wrong. not argue semantics because i lost a debate.. and im not an egotistical lying baised as hell "archer main" that clings to any sort of success youve experienced..

we are different.

[tepid hinge]

What yall think bout this archer fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyYL0bgFwpY

[fathom aurora]

Decent countering but those guys all suck. They had you and backed off. You played the space well though

[tepid hinge]

Of course they sucked 3 of them tried to challenge me and got beat by an archer thats pretty funny. They didnt have anything the only player that got close was the one with the shield. Well when your an archer with low stamina and health you have to play smart.

[fathom aurora]

Yeah, a lot just get greedy vs archers. I admit I'm guilty of this until the archer does something to show that theyre decent at melee. Then you actually play their stamina + reach, though you're often only 10 seconds away from a spawn wave landing on your head

[flat pagoda]

i agree axe is busted on CBmen bc its all i run lol

[lost hill]

so lets break this down.. youre using one of the few weapons capable of 1 shotting an archer

your team is already winning the objective, as you notice the massive player advantage you had the entire time (i notice your on offense. hmm)

you killed a friendly archer. tyeah that dont count..

then you proceeded to go kill a bunch of defaul archers BEFORE DYING.. because you were out of positon.

congrats, you killed the archers. but you died for it, and you even had to run away from one of them because he noticed you and ran.

TLDR: youre killing newer players. and ended up dying for killing them.. also. only 1 of them shot at you. at all.

also. this is best case scenario. i noticed that you didnt record you killing the archers on the next objective, ya know. the bridge..
youre playing an objective that has A LOT of space and flank routes. and therese no telling how much damage those archers dished out before you killed them.

but once again. you think being able to do something once, means that its common place and happens all the time.

when i play archer. i get kills that i never planned on getting... when i play melee. i die to archers in areas where i didnt even know the archer was a threat.

stop stroking yourself. pull your head out of your ass. and look at things from the other side.... when you get a kill as an archer ask yourself. "what could they have done to save themself"... if the answer is "dont play chiv 2" youre not a good archer. youre just a bitch playing archer.

lets see some defensive gameplay from the losing team.. then it might hold weight.

im pointing out that youre using very "best case scenario" footage.

its almost like.. even when theyre bad... they can still kill good players because... ARCHER NEEDS TO BE CHANGED..

[strange kelp]

Keeper shoots a chandelier and expects a nobel prize. Riveting gameplay 💤😴

[lost hill]

well. i mean. by keepers logic

im a duel GOD. because when i play 1v1 arena. i win A LOT of the time (because my opponents are all lvl 50 or less)

i get kills AS an archer. becuase its easy.

and you didnt kill 6-7...

you cant even have that many on the same team.

oh wait.. you meant in the video.. yeah. i too would clip around shit i didnt want people to see... you skipped a WHOLE MINUTE.. why is that? did you die to an archer?

jav play?

also. im not the one trying to use footage as "skill issue"

youre showing a best case scenrio

i can show myself killing archers on the winning team all day

also. i want to point something out that YOU STILL FAIL TO ADDRESS

you dont have the tools to protect yourself from an arrow. those archers have the tools to protect themselves from your highlander sword..

again. youre just giving more evidence of why are should be changed.

[strange kelp]

Patch 2.93 : "Reporting all war bow accounts above level 150 to the FBI as no normal person enjoys pelting people who cant fight back for 8+ hrs a day"

[lost hill]

they had the tools. they just failed to use them because they were getting overran in the frontlines and had to divert attention off of you. .

all they had to do was rightclick with their secondary out and boom. no 1 shot

you did not have a shield. therefore. you did not have the tools to protect yourself. the archer that got away from you. was able to shoot you

and i noticed that you didnt counter the arrow? i thought you said that you could do that

[vagrant eagle]

This dude is impossible to please

[lost hill]

well i mean. if youre going to use best case scenario. at least show the next objective where they get to sit back beside a resupply and your flank routes are limited to 2 straight lines

die to archer "theres nothing i could have done to block that damage"

1 shot an archer "they let me through the flank"

the difference is that you weren't fighting 2 people with an archer aiming at you... same objective. 2 COMPLETELY different scanerios

[strange kelp]

"Gaslight" has officially reached meaningless status. You cant gaslight a class 😂.

Sure hope that inanimate concept wasnt hurt by all that "gaslighting" 🤣🤣

As always you think youre intelligent

Gonna cry about an apostrophe? 🤓

[lost hill]

you do realize ziggy was also on the flank... right?.. ofcourse you dont. because it doesnt fit your agenda

the difference being... the archer were shooting at him. maybe because hes known.. you had a single archer shoot at you the entire time

[strange kelp]

Cringe 🤣

"Stop gaslighting the archer class"
Links to a logical fallacy that doesnt apply
Continues to think cowardly archer is impressive

🤓

[lost hill]

so what im hearing is "i got lucky there was only 1 person on the flank. i didnt play the objective and the archers werent looking for me... then i died after killing them because i was in the enemy spawn and that archer will be back on their perch by the time i get back"

and you still skipped an entire minute of footage. with no explanation

what you posted is effectively a highlight reel

[atomic stratus]

I don’t see what’s wrong with Keepers video. Same map, same team, same objective. He successfully fought his way through to flank,l and killed a bunch of archers. If there was anything wrong with that clip, it’s that he jumped into a group of enemies and died but aside from that, he got the flank and he got the archers.

[lost hill]

completely different scenario though. he doesnt have archers shooting at him.

only 1 shot at him. and they hit him. he didnt counter it. he just had to eat the damage

he got a good flank, i'll give him that. but he's also using one of the few objectives with enough space to pull a flank off

it still stands that he didnt assist with the objective directly. which is the whole point of TO.

ziggy was fighting 2 players at the same time (on the flank) with an archer behind them. who was able to get a shot past hit teammates. past the shield (since passive blocking isnt strong enough) and kill ziggy, while he was trying to recoup stamina from holding block in order to not get shot in the first place

killing archers isnt difficult. getting to them is the hardest part..and notice that the one who shot him. got away alive. because keeper realized "if i chase that. i die" because he's behind enemy lines and cant afford to spend the extra time trying to get back to the archer

he still died for being out of position just due to the sheer number of players in the spawn wave (furthering the point that his team was winning heavily)

he's also using one of the few weapons of 1 shotting an archer, if he was using anything that didnt do 90+ damage in a single hit. the odds of him killing as many as he did. is a lot less.. which means that the counterplay is "you have to play with X if you want to kill them effectively"

which isnt good for the game because it forces certain weapons in order to do more against a single class

and again, he skipped a whole minute that he didnt show us (possible death by archer)... and he didnt show the next obj. which is where archers REALLY get to shine and just lob arrows into the fight with relative safety

[sharp root]

Pretty much every other weapon kills them in two hits

Since they swing faster we’re only talking another second or two fighting an archer

In said video he had greatly more time than that to fight each archer

Because as you saw

Almost none of them even bothered swapping to secondaries even when they saw him coming

[rocky perch]

honestly, only reason why archer isn't one of the best TO classes is because most archers don't know how to melee fight

atleast it's a big reason

[atomic stratus]

If he doesn’t have archers shooting at him, he’s doing something right.

Him countering would’ve killed his momentum, it’s fine to eat dmg if you can kill the enemy in return.

He’s using a good flanking map to flank, no problems there.

He may not be freeing the prisoners or standing on the frontline, if the enemy archers are a nuisance in his team winning the team fight, then flanking and killing them was correct.

Yes, ziggy misplayed in his clip. He took on a 1v2+1 archer when he was one shot on a flank that had no value the moment he was confronted.

Getting to archers is difficult, which is why you play smart and play with the team. And him not chasing the 1 archer was the smart move since he would’ve gotten stalled out and killed by a spawn wave.

Yes him dying was his own fault. He should’ve killed the archers and rejoined his teams frontline.

His weapon choice was correct. Tho he probably would’ve yielded the same results if he played with something that can 2 shot an archer since they were caught unaware. He would’ve had to just play more carefully if this was the case.

Yes it would’ve been nice to see the full match, but his clip was made to contrast the clip with ziggy. Since that’s what we’re doing rn, analyzing clips

[atomic stratus]

The amount of archers that refuse to pull out their secondaries is insane. They just hop around trynna escape and then get rolled

[strange kelp]

Camping your own spawn is a questionable playstyle. If the spawns weren't basically instant you could have time to counterattack archers. You can wipe an entire wave with 0 casualties and still have no chance to counterattack agaisnt archers without dying.

You have to suicide dive to kill archers or play Warbow.

[flat pagoda]

epic video. best way to get archers is to flank when they arent paying attention but i dont believe it wouldve been so smooth if you cant OHKO 🤔

[lost hill]

how much is he paying you?

ziggy didnt missplay in his clip.. it was a WHOLE DIFFERENT SITUATION.. different game. different players

if you look at keepers clip, look how many of his team outnumber the enemy. THAT is the reason he's able to keep the attention of himself. his team is pushing up as a massive group

and fun fact: archer on the losing team. is a lot harder to play. why do you think keeper doesnt play on the losing team?

[lost hill]

so what im reading is.. the reason that most people dont see the issue with archer.. is that they havnt played against one that knows how to play..

the class attracts newbs for a reason. might have something to do with the fact that you can ignore mechanics

[atomic stratus]

I’m an archer main. It’s only natural that I would defend my class.

Pretty sure solo flanking on like 10 health is a misplay. Taking the 1v3 fight on 10 health was also a misplay. Mans should have healed up before throwing hands or abandoned the flank altogether.

There was a minute left on the clock. Seems like the defending team was putting up a fight. Since we don’t have the full vid, I can’t say for certain that the enemy archers were a huge threat to the attacks, but his flanking surely contributed to his teams effort to push through.

What do you mean by “losing team”? Pretty sure playing any class on the losing team is difficult. If you’re teams getting rolled, then that’s a matchmaking problem and/or skill issue

[lost hill]

i too am an archer main... its only natural that i set aside my bias towards the class in order for the game as a whole to improve

flanking on 10 hp?.. notice that he didnt die to melee. that 10 hp. was 9 more than he needed

he didnt take a 1v3.. he took a 1v2 with an archer. he cannot fight the archer, thats a big part of the issue

and what i mean by the "losing team".. is when the teams get stacked. thats not a matchmaking or skill issue. thats a "torn banner wont just remove the manual team swapping"

you want proof that archer needs to be changed...

its not in the tutorial for a reason..

"heres how to block/riposte/counter.... but that only works against swords and such, if you see and archer and you dont have a shield.. you should avoid making any sudden movements that would catch their attention!"

because archer doesnt play by the same rules as the other classes. archery has its own ruleset..

[atomic stratus]

Nobody is being biased tho. Archer is literally a glass cannon (tho the cannon part is exaggerated). Shit health, even more shit stamina and weak melee game. For those, we got range as compensation. Archers don’t need buffs or nerfs.

He didn’t die to melee cuz he exposed himself while attacking in front of an archer while being in one shot range in terms of health. That whole situation was disadvantageous from the start, no matter how skilled he is.

So a 1v2+1? Gotcha, cuz even if he did make it past the two melee players, he would still need to throw hands with the final boss: the archer.

Damn, maybe we should start advocating for better matchmaking or no team swapping then instead of changing stuff about archers cuz their annoying 🤔

The archer isn’t in the tutorial cuz the bow doesn’t require riposte/counter/block. We have ADS instead. And I’m pretty sure you can block/counter arrows. And shields are pretty garbage anyway, better to just leave it on your back against an archer.

[fathom aurora]

You seriously cannot be suggesting balancing a class based off of the lowest skilled players. What an awful idea.

[fathom aurora]

I cut the video down to get to the point, but in the full thing he was retreating from the objective due to low health, followed by two melee, and then a single archer that can put insane pressure on a player due to their presence.

[fathom aurora]

Also, kount chocula is insanely biased towards archers. Being made of glass doesn't matter if no one can touch you.

And go into a match and try actually countering arrows. Seriously. Any archer that can hold the shot for .2 seconds longer immediately defeats that idea.

[formal citrus]

Make archers unavailable in duel servers

[atomic stratus]

If you can, can you link the full vod? I’d like to see the full thing myself if that’s the case.

You can touch archers tho. Again, if you’re sole purpose is to kill an archer, you’re doing something wrong. Play with the team when needed. If an opportunity arises to flank and attack the archer (like in keepers clip), feel free to take it. But by no means should a frontliner be saying: “I must kill these archers if it’s the last thing I do”, and then proceed to rush the archers recklessly.

Countering arrows is a thing I myself need more practice with but it’s definitely possible. Especially the closer you are, and the more aware you are of archer draw times and if you’re tracking their stamina.

And who is kount chocula? Lmao

[fathom aurora]

Will do later. And yeah, I can flank archers because a lot of them are tunnel visioned goldfish, that doesn't mean the class isn't an issue.

Countering on reaction is impossible unless at extreme ranges.. Again, if someone is braindead you can guess their timing which is why I prefaced that part with at least a 2iq archer.

I've also resorted to calling keeper silly names, it helps deal with how obnoxious he is

[thorn robin]

Sounds like a lotta skill issue

[sharp root]

About as awful as balancing around top tier archers

[fathom aurora]

So mid tier is best yes? Those that are at least partly spatially aware, can melee to a degree, and know how to slightly hold their shot vs someone trying to counter them?

[thorn robin]

That's almost as bad as not using the scope attachment for your longbow

[fathom aurora]

Koper working out that more than one person can hold an opinion.

Kouples therapy gets mad about being lied about, proceeds to lie about others. Classic kleenex

Self awareness of a teacup

[wise kraken]

keeper, keeper of the archer changes thread

[violet rover]

So. I play all classes and what can i say:

1. Warbow should always 1shot archers
2. Warbow should 1shot wanguard in head
3. Throwing knifes should knockdown archers with 2 shots
   4!!! All projectiles should fly into centre mark while playing 3rd person. Maybe higher or lower but not to right or left

[vagrant eagle]

i hope this is not real feedback

[past elm]

Throwing knives do bring archers down with 2 shots if you get 1 headshot

[inner pecan]

If you go to the link he provided, on the side it says go to full clip and it takes you to the streamed video he clipped it from

But yeah he wasnt out of position, he just did bad plays thats it.

[fickle yoke]

The only change I would recommend is fixing the dam projectiles so when you physically see a hit, you get a hit instead of relying on getting ghost hits. When they 'fixed' projectiles sometime around 6,8,10 months (I think maybe the Tenosia update?), it actually appeared that they made them worse since the only hits I got post that update are ghost hits (arrow flies a few feet to the side of the enemy but it still registers, but won't register when the projectile actually stops on the enemy's hitbox)

[lost hill]

how about balancing the class around the other classes? or what its capable of..

bad archer=bad vangard.. both are going to die quickly to a melee

good archer>good vanguard.. archer can hit through block. vangaurd cant.

and oh no.. worse stamina and health.. that is a legit skill issue. because countering fixes BOTH of those issues.. while its true there is less margin for error. there is a lot greater gain through range and hitting through weapon blocks.

[thorn robin]

Just duck

[lost hill]

dude stop.. you keep insisting that im acting like its always a 1v1.. im not

stop lying. stop trolling... the fact the mods allow you to do it so much should show you that theyre giving you a break

a vangaurd cannot bypass the opponents defense. an archer can

stop trying to protect the class that you abuse.

ignoring koopers attempt to demand my attention by lying..

lets look at the 2 newbie friendly classes

archer and knight. one is offensive, one is defensive

new players tend to gravitate towards knight because of the higher health pool giving them more margin for error. allowing them to take and extra hit or 2.

new players also gravitate to archer because they dont need to find a way past the opponents defense. the class does that for them..

please explain to me how that is a 1v1 example?... where in that did you infer that i was comparing them against each other in a 1v1?

im not though. and im honestly curious of how you came to that assumption

thats comparing them... yes

but YOU said a "1 V 1" as in.. they are fighting each other.

dude, make up your mind..

its is a 1v1 or a 1:1?

im comparing their effectiveness in ability to kill through standard gameplay against players who understand the mechanics.

no.. YOU have insisted that i dont.

there arent "super secret archer main only mechanics"... there isnt something that you only grasp the concept of after 1000 level of playing archer

name a single mechanic you think i dont understand.

so.. if i say the sky is green... the sky is green now.. right?

because that is litterally the same exact logic youre using.

[vagrant eagle]

I can see keeper and any other archer going down on bow changes, if anything keeper was literally neutralizing a lot of ur points, and you were trying to make it seem like you had just a tough time as a skirmisher being unable to counter an archer from a long distance but it was pretty obvious why you would die if u went for an archer and who had the long range advantage too

[lost hill]

i mean.. i could also have something to do with the fact that skirmisher takes extra damage from arrows. but doesnt get any way to do extra damage TO another archer.

[white osprey]

Let's keep this thread to it's original topic please. Take any personal issues to DMs, thank you.

[vagrant eagle]

and people have agreed that skirmisher needed buffs, you however kept going for archers overall which no one agrees to much on realistically

we hate archers but we never saw them as incrediblly difficult monsters like you did, you practically witch hunted them on every single mechanic of the game that we kept telling you that you have instead a skill issue

[lost hill]

archers still devalue a lot of the core mechanics of the game.

a melee player has the potentional to fight multiple other melee fighters at once. and never get it.

but a single archer added to that equation. instantly devalues that skill due to being able to hit past block/active parry

[vagrant eagle]

bro you got mad at archers for just shooting at a distance alone and it was difficult for you to come at them, we showed you videoes and you still got so mad and said it wasn't right because we are putting risk to go up to them, thats the point of a ranged class though, you can be a javelin user urself and sit behind infantry while someone goes for you as well

[lost hill]

the difference being.. a javelin is blockable. and is blocked by active parry.. and you get 5 of them before you have to resupply or find them and pick them back up

one has proper counterplay. an arrow doesnt.

[vagrant eagle]

ok then buff ur own class, don't witchhunt an entire class that isnt skirmisher

but the same is gonna be the same because their fucking bows and arrows

they shoot far

[unreal patrol]

I'm happy to go back to discussing this kind of archer talk with actual people who are interested in having a discussion

[unreal patrol]

So back to the actual stuff, archers oneshotting eachother, that sound good?

[vagrant eagle]

even by a foot shot?

[unreal patrol]

Id say just torso

[vagrant eagle]

couldnt that be a bit op if the archers release too early then vs a regular archer

[unreal patrol]

Well no cause thatd do less damage

Thats like saying warbow is underpowered because its supposed to oneshot but wont if you dont fully charge it.

[vagrant eagle]

im just saying from this games possible code that, if u buff a torso shot dmg to 1 shot, and someone releases it in a non full shot, itll still deal a lot more damage as before and faster

[unreal patrol]

To other archers

Archers have a unique damage modifier to arrows

70 goes to 94 on the warbow for example

[vagrant eagle]

i dont mind this change but i still think it may cause the pro attack archers to farm defense archers faster and target melee players more, esp galencourt

[unreal patrol]

If you made it so shooting an archer alone with a fully charged arrow goes from 45 to 90, but everyone else is the same, then its only changing the archer vs archer dynamic.

Plus, longbow requires you to be closer due to much slower projectile with heavier arrow drop

And this puts archers in more danger as a whole

It also allows archers to be more aggressive and it also makes counter achering not only encouraged but rewarded too

Plus, theres some archer issues if you arent using a warbow and shooting at other archers

You shoot a guy, he gets hit, hides in cover because hes far away

He heals and then peeks again, you shoot him, he goes back into cover

He can do this basically forever until you get a headshot or something changes.

Plus its not a nerf to archers, its just changing a dynamic

Good archers will benefit and weaker archers will be more at risk on a class without much of it.

This might seem scary to make weaker players weaker, but this is no different than the rest of the game.

You go into melee inexperienced and do damage and die a lot, this would follow the same dynamic, its not really worse.

[vagrant eagle]

ill support this if only they throw in a better balance system too though, i just dont see ever any good archers in defense that this may just hurt defenders more because its newb archers that get farmed and quit already today

[fathom aurora]

Being realistic about how far the devs are likely to change archer, I think this is the best approach

[vagrant eagle]

we need just in general good archers forced into defense

[unreal patrol]

This has nothing to do with archers

Archers dont really contribute to the front line often and if you are an archer, on defense, on a team thats losing, its admittedly pretty hard.

[fathom aurora]

you can alter the map so defense archer have better shooting positions. it's true for a few limited areas of the map already

[unreal patrol]

Youd see the same kind of "getting rolled" by playing say, ambusher

Ambusher on defense on a team thats losing

[vagrant eagle]

they already do, but as i said most of the good archers are attackers because they are far less worried being rushed by a melee, while defense its more probable and a big risk because good archers dominate the field with superior training

whatever ziggy wants will help defense archers a lot, if only they were good players tho, which is just a rare sight

[unreal patrol]

Well heres my question

Why would archers be rewarded for being newer/weaker when most of the game doesnt do that?

Its the only thing in the game (rivaled by a few things like dane axe and spear) that follows this

Unless its supposed to be a crutch, theres not really a reason to reward someone who doesnt know what theyre doing because thats why people crutch on it

If I play maul and eat shit and then swap to dane axe, mash, and get rewarded, im gonna play dane axe.

Archer is still gonna be easy to play and be effective, just with more risk.

And potentially more reward

[tall hound]

Similar to early Mordhau (with the huntsman perk) this does make a non-archer class who picks up a bow the superior choice for playing archer

Since back then you would do the bonus damage to archers with the bow without taking bonus damage from them

[vagrant eagle]

was it changed though

[tall hound]

Huntsman was changed from this yeah, I'm not 100% on what it was currently I just remember people being Big Mad when you would loot their bow and then one shot them due to the perk

[tepid hinge]

If a player wants to hide like that i find it really amusing to beat them with my side weapon lol

[fathom aurora]

I think it was changed to all bow holders take bonus damage

[unreal patrol]

This is another issue I find

I think the best solution would be similar to what Ambusher does with throwing knives

set the default bow ammo to be 5 or less arrows

then make it so archers have an increase themselves to bring it back to normal

so an archer has normal arrows and everyone else has reduced

[fathom aurora]

that'd be a good idea tbh

[vagrant eagle]

could always introduce a ammo weight system, in a mod i was a CM on the more ammo they had the heavier they were and couldnt run as fast unless they dropped it

[tall hound]

This is something I've wanted since launch yeah, giving non archers with bows a drastically reduced ammo count.

[vagrant eagle]

they also lost stam faster i think

[unreal patrol]

It'd be basically impossible for a knight with a bow or warbow to be really effective if their arrows are like

2 to 5 arrows max

they could still do it, but

theyd be entirely reliant on ammo kits

[vagrant eagle]

i feel like knight should be given 3 throwing axes ngl

that thing sucks compare to the throwing knife realistically on that class

[unreal patrol]

they can do a lot of instant damage

[tepid hinge]

TB already lowered the war bow count from 20 to 12 because anti-archer wouldn't stop crying. TB not lowering the count even more.

[tall hound]

I think it moves to a more situational thing rather than just straight up A Better Choice.

Defending stage 1 of Galencourt? Pickup the bow from the rack to shoot at incoming people before they break in. Good, cool. Seems like a good use of it. But seeing knights maining bow has always seemed silly

[vagrant eagle]

yeah but 2 shots, drops so hard, so slow

[unreal patrol]

You didn't read my message, but out of respect, I will try again

I am not suggesting archers get less arrows

I'm suggesting every other class gets less arrows with a bow they pick up

Please read my statements in full before telling me you don't agree. 🙏

[sharp root]

It is balanced around how it performs

[unreal patrol]

hes gone bro 😔

[sharp root]

Well prove me wrong

The scoreboard doens't lie

[unreal patrol]

No I meant he timeout

[tepid hinge]

That not how commented though maybe learn some grammar.

[sharp root]

Oh Random left

or timeout

[vagrant eagle]

time out me thinks

[brave arch]

latter

[sharp root]

My discord half the time shows me everyone with white names

as a bug

[vagrant eagle]

can we make lemonater47 a white name

[fathom aurora]

so an archer has normal arrows and everyone else has reduced

[inner pecan]

You usually see it cause they will have higher health so they can tank shots much better then an archer could.

In FFA you actually see it quite a bit

[tepid hinge]

Regular bow has 20 arrows and war bow has 12. what u talking bout.

[fathom aurora]

where ziggy pointed out what he meant

[tall hound]

Yeah, it's something that's always been around sadly. Reducing their ammo as Ziggy suggested is a good solution to this for sure.

[inner pecan]

He saying to decrease the amount other people get when they pick up a bow

[fathom aurora]

anyway, doesnt matter now

[vernal fjord]

by keepers logic a focking spoon is a weapon

[inner pecan]

Even reducing it idk if it will take it away tbh. Especially with the massive amount of ammo boxes that are located in safe areas.

[vernal fjord]

archer= weak

[inner pecan]

You will still see it but i would say they have to reload more

[tepid hinge]

I honestly dont care how many bows other class get when picking up regular bow is not that good. Majority of the other player that may pick up a regular bow are horrible with bow anyways.

[tall hound]

I'd like three arrows max for them, that still makes it useful for defence but less practical to run around with.

[tepid hinge]

i can say the same bout a lot swords man I face.

[vernal fjord]

at least they try not to play COD

[inner pecan]

if we do 3 arrows then yeah you might see a change. But i was thinking at least 5 for regular bow but take your suggestion with 3 arrows, do that to the War Bow

[tepid hinge]

what does that have to do with chivalry lol

[tepid hinge]

It would matter if other classes had 30 arrows they wouldnt land any arrows lol

[inner pecan]

But then you gotta figure out how much for crossbow which i would probably say 5 too

[tepid hinge]

Naw u just spam trolling.

[vernal fjord]

nah

[inner pecan]

I mean true yeah which is what i said that the average player isnt really good at all playing archer

but they just talking about reducing the arrows for other classes picking up cause then they actually have more of the advantage then the archer does. More health, more Stam and rock a nice secondary

[tall hound]

Specifically lowering ammo count for non archers is to help offset this.

[tepid hinge]

Not at all lol. Yeah other classes do have those advantages but their biggest disadvantage is that they have terrible accuracy.

[fathom aurora]

wut

[inner pecan]

Its dependent on the player not the class. You shoot the same way as an archer does but with no zoom in ability. Same accuracy there isnt any down falls on when another class picks up a bow/crossbow or hell even a javlin.

There is time when im footman with spear and shield i switch my spear for a javlin. I go nuts

Like for one i do agree a knight using a bow is way more deadlier then an archer using a bow

[unreal patrol]

It certainly reduces the potential

[tepid hinge]

Thats what I said a lot of players on here have terrible accuracy so if they are non archer class using a regular bow its not bad they not hitting anything anyways. I use archer during a match and a non archer picks up a regular bow they have better health, stamina and more bows but I have better accuracy and I am better combat I like my chances.

[fathom aurora]

that's a terrible way to balance something

[unreal patrol]

You don't have better accuracy and that matters way less with crossbow and longbow.

Warbow is pretty much the only bow that gets noticable benefit from archer zoom.

[inner pecan]

Well when Yurik stated he would reduce the max amount to 3 arrows then yes it would definitely reduce the potential especially for War Bow.

[unreal patrol]

I was thinking of a reduction by a percentage so it can be easily changed.

So like, reducing it by 75% or 80% for non-archer classes.

[tepid hinge]

Yeah if your using aim assist but if not accuracy does matter.

[unreal patrol]

Warbow goes from 12 to 3, Longbow goes from 25 to 7, something like that

It'd just need a set number.

Or you can set it manually and make it increased like how Ambusher goes from 4 throwing knives to 7.

[inner pecan]

Yeah thats pretty much what they would probably do

[unreal patrol]

Also just to be transparent, if I pick up a warbow and want to be a shithead, I just go into my options and set my fov to 60.

It's basically archer zoom without having to play archer.

It's definitely viable.

[inner pecan]

Honestly yeah i didnt think about that your 100% right on that lol

[fathom aurora]

unless you're someone that gets physically ill from low fov

[unreal patrol]

Third person will help

[fathom aurora]

not by much

[tepid hinge]

Only thing I doubt it would happen non archer class hardly ever pick bows.

[tall hound]

It's one of those things where like... You can have a mouse button that zooms in your monitor or something.

No different than monitors that can put a crosshair on your screen for those games where not having a crosshair is considered a feature.

[inner pecan]

Well no they still can just it just stops them from chilling with it instead of being in the front lines where they should be

[unreal patrol]

I saw Hunt Showdown has a cheater epidemic (much like all shooters) and one thing people do is use Reshade to create a crosshair-area zoom. This basically gives everyone a scope at anytime.

This can be added at a monitor level, yeah, which would make it undetectable.

[tepid hinge]

The lobbies I go into it rarely happens. There are so many toxic players in there complaining bout archer lol. These non archers world never pick up a bow.

[unreal patrol]

You've got games like Rust where people have scripts that automatically counter the recoil you'd have for shooting... Anything you add to be difficult can be circumvented besides literal options. Reducing ammo count for example can't really be compensated, it's a limiting factor. You'd be required to get ammo more often and if you have 3 arrows, you're basically glued to an ammo box.

Removing archer zoom doesn't stop anyone.

[inner pecan]

I guess it depends cause i know in FFA when we go to that one map i cant think at the top of my head of what it is. People normally go pick up a bow at the rack in the dungeons as a knight and chill on the bridge.

Cause then they dont have that stam issue that archers do and cant be 1 shot

Unless by my Maul 🙂

[tepid hinge]

On FFA really? I haven't been playing FFA lately because vk is still messed up. I have only seen one time in ffa lobby someone using the bow but they were rdmer.

[unreal patrol]

Honestly, if Longbow was one-shotting Archers to the torso, what does that really do? Archer vs Melee is the same, Archers are still putting out just as much damage, all it does is change the Archer vs Archer dynamic which makes Warbow less potent and less overpowering in the Archer matchup and Longbow is now more of a threat instead of a hinderance.

Archers become a threat to Archers even with Longbow, this lets Archers play Longbow without getting owned by Warbow as much, this lets people be closer to the fight which puts them at more risk.

[late forum]

Think he’s talking about legit FFA

[inner pecan]

Well FFA doesnt have VK unless you go to duels. Its actually pointless for FFA to have vote kick and when it was round it was abused a lot to the point where the leaders were constantly kicked.

[tepid hinge]

Okay your talking bout ffa not duel ffa okay. I haven't tried ffa yet only the duel ffa lobbies.

[fathom aurora]

on duels taking a bow would be a massive hinderance to any class

unless you're RDMing of course, but then, banned

[tepid hinge]

Not really a lot of archer have horrible accuracy unless that have aim assist.

[fathom aurora]

that's not why, but I think we agree

[fathom aurora]

either way I think most of us are talking about team objective

[inner pecan]

Honestly all i see is issues with making long bow 1 shot archers. Average players wouldnt be able to play any more as they can constantly 1 shot each other and then you get the pro players would just benefit even more out of this.

[unreal patrol]

They can also get more kills.

Not only this but let's compare it to melee

You spawn in with Longsword and fight a player with a lot of hours and he kicks your ass.

Why would Archer be different?

[tall hound]

Just bring a shield

[inner pecan]

Another issue you get with this is that pro players that play archer can now dominate the archers in the game. Like Mordhau has this to where bows 1 shot other archers and i seen the clips. The Average player base doesnt stand a chance against it and it destroys their chances to do anything but switching off of archer. From my understanding its a big issue in Mordhau cause of it.

[inner pecan]

Archers dont get shields unless they are skirmishers lol

[unreal patrol]

And in the same token, I have killed players in melee 5 times in a row and they swap to archer and target me for the rest of the game.

[inner pecan]

I honestly doubt people were switching off to target you.

[unreal patrol]

No, they were.

[late forum]

Good thing theres only a few good archers we’d have to worry about apparently

[unreal patrol]

And it's happened multiple times.

And not because im John Streamer Guy, probably, though that's happened too.

[inner pecan]

Which twitch video would i see this on your channel?

Im curious to see that

[unreal patrol]

It doesn't happen every day but I've also played this game for over 2 years.

I'd describe it as uncommon but not rare.

[inner pecan]

Im not saying that i just wanted to see if you have any of those times clipped

[unreal patrol]

I do not. I do have an archer only targeting me the entire match though as I had to save it for a report.

[inner pecan]

was it keeper? lol

[unreal patrol]

This user was watching the stream and they would intentionally only aim for me even in crowds. I don't think so, no.

I was using Katars at the time and that really made it impossible to play Katars.

[inner pecan]

Ahh the stream snipers i believe that

[unreal patrol]

I picked up a shield and they would just aim at me forever even while I had it.

Can't really play the game like that.

[inner pecan]

I have people that target me too in FFA but honestly i welcome it tbh

[unreal patrol]

Can't really deal with being targeted by archers as a non-archer.

If an Archer wanted to only shoot you the entire match of say, TO, you'd basically be forced to not do anything in a sightline

the Archer might not contribute to the game, but you can't stop him either.

[inner pecan]

If your getting targeted by something that you dislike then yeah its understandable to get angry about it

[unreal patrol]

Infact, one of the first competitive TO matches

A messer user that was generally disliked got targeted by a crossbow archer pre-nerf

and this messer user was basically not able to play, at all

they didn't get to do anything the entire match, they're helpless.

[inner pecan]

See the issue ive seen in TO when your looking for someone specific, its hard to find them especially if your fighting in a full server

[unreal patrol]

I thought this was pretty deserved because they were very pro-archer during the games development and were always intentionally contrarian to any of my archer problem points I would bring up

so seeing them get decimated by an archer felt pretty justified to me.

Anyway, your argument is that the Average Archer (average means they don't know how to pull their melee weapon out, since they are the 70 to 90% of archer population) would get killed by better players who are playing Archer. This argument doesn't work because Melee follows the same rules, and just like Melee there are more "average players" than good ones. There are very very very few Archers who would decimate new players. There are more good melee players than good archers, but there are also more melee players than archers.

Lets be generous and say that in a server of 64, there are 12 archer players and the class is full.

6 players per 32 people or 12 per 64 people (depending on if you wanna do it by team, doesn't matter) would mean that about 18.75% of the playerbase is playing Archer.

If you compare the good players playing Melee to the rest of the 81.25% melee playerbase, the number wouldn't be very high in comparison. The same applies to Archer in this case.

[inner pecan]

Well the issue is you cant compare melee classes to Archer classes when Archer is the lowest stat class there is. All the classes cant be 1 shot by overhead like archer does. People dont have stam issues as archer. In those classes you actually have a chance after being hit to retaliate or defend yourself, an archer hardly ever does since its already 1 shot to almost every weapon but now you want to make them even more 1 shot but by their own weapons.

The new player has a more better chance as a melee class then an archer class

[flat pagoda]

Guys it's not that serious

Just dodge lmao

[fathom aurora]

1 shot to almost every weapon
no

[unreal patrol]

Only one melee weapon can consistently kill Archers with an overhead.

There is a small phenomenon with Archers and Overheal. Archers get given overheal and get hit less by any source of damage, including team damage and random stray hits of any kind.

Because of this, they're almost always sitting at 100 health instead of 90, which often leads to the Greatsword heavy overhead not killing an Archer in one hit.

This means the only weapon killing an archer in one shot with an overhead would be the Highland Sword.

Conversely, Javelin can do 133 damage and oneshot a non-overhealed Vanguard and since melee classes are more often not at full health, you can warbow a Vangaurd for like 85% of their health bar, which could have been chewed up by just team damage.

Also, the reason I would say Archer should be more lethal to Archers is because that's how it was designed, which is why Archers do more damage to Archers with arrows already.

This is merely increasing the numbers of a thing they already put in the game, because Archers are supposed to counter other Archers, this is their class balance and while I don't agree with it conceptually, that's how it works. Archers should be aiming for other Archers because that's part of their job.

[hollow steppe]

🧙‍♂️

[unreal patrol]

Theres also the "but they have way less stamina than every other class" which conversely translates to "but they can deal damage farther than any other class that cannot be defended by normal means."

[inner pecan]

So your relying on them to have over heal the whole time?

[unreal patrol]

No, I'm only bringing up the problem with assuming they'll be oneshot.

If they're at 90 health, two weapons can oneshot them.

If theyre at 100, only one can.

Reliably, of course.

[inner pecan]

I think your missing a few weapons

[unreal patrol]

Theres special attacks, spear sprint attack, dane axe throw headshot and backstabs.

But you said overhead.

[fathom aurora]

only 5 can special for 100 damage

[unreal patrol]

There are only two weapons in the whole game, greatsword and highland sword, that can oneshot an archer with an overhead.

And one stops working with overheal.

[inner pecan]

im actually trying to look for the damage spread sheet cause im pretty sure battle axe and war axe can 1 shot them too

[unreal patrol]

Besides, this is all assuming melee range, something an Archer is going to be avoiding more often than not. Even if Archers do die, they respawn quickly as well as melee classes.

Battleaxe can only oneshot with a special and War axe can only with a special if theyre not overhealed.

[fathom aurora]

8 melee weapons can 1 hit an archer without overheal

[unreal patrol]

But that includes special attacks, right?

[fathom aurora]

yeah

[unreal patrol]

Slow, interruptable, easy to dodge and telegraphed with a high stam usage.

Not that it invalidates it.

Just worth mentioning.

[inner pecan]

Heavy overhead doesnt do it?

[unreal patrol]

No.

[inner pecan]

i thought it did

[unreal patrol]

Its close.

Battleaxe is the 3rd highest overhead damage in the game and it can't oneshot an archer.

Just keep that in mind.

This is also, again, assuming you even get an archer in melee to begin with. An archer who can defend themselves even mildly reliably isn't going to get hit by a heavy overhead.

[inner pecan]

I found it yeah so only 2.

[unreal patrol]

Keeper specifically uses Warbow and Cudgel and as much as I think he kind of sucks at melee because he does, his pick of the cudgel is no accident.

If you can ever even get in melee range, he is able to recover and if you use highland sword or greatsword, he will gamble you with the cudgel because its slower.

Cudgel is able to just mash and get away with some absolutely nasty hits.

[inner pecan]

My opinon hatchet and short sword are best picks but a lot of people do cudgel

[unreal patrol]

This forces you, as a melee player, to respect his attacks.

This means you are not going fast enough to kill him before a spawn wave saves him.

Shortsword and hatchet might be better weapons, if your intent is to fight.

His goal with the cudgel is rarely to ever kill.

[inner pecan]

Thats where stam comes into play cause again most archers dont even counter. They usually drained their stam out and you knock their weapon out with 1 swing

[unreal patrol]

I actually have this figured out too because ive done it for so long, but unfortunately no.

[pliant trail]

I like the cudgel mostly because it's funny when I see people assuming I have tunnel vision only to bonk them

[vagrant eagle]

everytime i use cudgel i feel like a officer of the law

[inner pecan]

Cudgel is great against knights

but vanguard you will be swinging at them all day

[pliant trail]

I just like it cuz it's funny but that is an upside

[unreal patrol]

If he is at full stam at the start of a fight, you will have to hit him with about 4 greatsword overheads to disarm him. Heavies would make it faster but unfortunately if you heavy a cudgel, they will just swing and interrupt you, which wastes more time and makes it take even longer.

[fathom aurora]

It's really easy to not be out of stamina as an archer

[unreal patrol]

Unfortunately yes.

[fathom aurora]

Things like canceling your draw give you most of your stamina back

[tall hound]

Especially since in most cases you don't need to win the fight as an archer, just stall until the next spawn wave.

[unreal patrol]

Which is why the cudgel works so well for Keepers "never fight in melee" playstyle

They are an amazing time waster and you simply do not have time.

Any desperation to try and kill faster can be punished.

And this is all assuming that they arent countering at all

[inner pecan]

Well you should know with the amount of time you have in the game that the average player base doesnt counter. Why? Idk but tutorial goes over it hard core which is what i brought up earlier in this discussion. People learning how to counter they basically just beat the game and are better then over 50% of the population that plays. Your average archer is actually part of that 50%, mostly cause people come straight in and play archer. Once they realize how hard it is to keep a constant kill streak with archer they tend to just switch to melee as its easier to just do that 1 swing and get 5 kills.

[unreal patrol]

I find the exact opposite.