Archer Changes

[late forum]

By the time it comes the game will be dead

[deep viper]

I need heavy.

[lost hill]

yes. it is my most played class. specializing in the skirmisher subclass

so to give you a skillset list, i am proficient in BOTH ranged and melee

[late forum]

based

[tall heron]

Heavy crossbow will kill this game but hey it’s doing that on its own

[late forum]

It’s going to happen

[brazen olive]

Ehh if it's anything like chiv1 the reload will be brutal

[lost hill]

theyre already in game.. theyre mounted on most maps. called "ballistas"

[deep viper]

The game is too niche to be "live".

[tall heron]

I’ll hope for Mord on console before then

[late forum]

I’m talking about the mobile one

[deep viper]

AoC, C:MW, Mordhau, C2. They all too niche.

[lost hill]

yeah... lets not bring that here..

the slasher genre in general is niche

[late forum]

Comes in a package saying “heavy siege crossbow, take me wherever”

[tepid hinge]

have you actually used the bow?

[fathom aurora]

it is?

[late forum]

true

[lost hill]

yes... i have used all archer weapons, the minimum weapon level is at least 10.

[tall heron]

It was announced last September I heard they did a console test not to long ago

For Xbox insiders in EU

[fathom aurora]

oh, I knew it was supposed to be last year. not surprised they failed at that

[late forum]

get ready for the i have more hours aiming and shooting then you so your opinions don’t matter

[fathom aurora]

but it's not skill based so it doesn't matter

[lost hill]

all the ranged weapons are over 10.. im talking things like hatchet are closer to 10.. idk why the hatchet just feels.. bad to me.

[late forum]

Try telling that to a archer main or someone that believes archers are okay

[fathom aurora]

it's like 3mm long

where KC

[lost hill]

so is the knife. but atleast the knife feels better lol

[fathom aurora]

actually I haven't used hatchet in ages

[late forum]

Hatchets you have to be closer range i believe and are easier to time the counter and active parry will deflect them

and hatchet in melee yeah doesn’t feel too good

[brazen olive]

Archers are stronger in mordhau tho?

Also I'm pretty sure it's too late to revitalize that game

[tall heron]

I’ve played mord on pc no way near as oppressive

[fathom aurora]

you could deflect with parry and I think they travelled slower so you could react

[late forum]

They feel better to deal with

[brazen olive]

With a timed parry ya, no different than countering arrows

[fathom aurora]

very

[tall heron]

Lack of desertion zones on mord also helps

You can actually flank

[brazen olive]

The faster projectile speed and high dmg made archer feel much easier in that game to me

I think they flinch you out of swings still too?

[fathom aurora]

you could actually read them in mord, idr if it was the speed or animations, but it was readable. Also being one button means it's quicker to input

[brazen olive]

Well hey I'd gladly take mordhau's archers over this game's lol

Community is just dogshit

[worn marsh]

You haven’t meet the top archers in Mord clearly

[lost hill]

vocal minority not allowing changes to be made to get it improved..

[worn marsh]

You know you are the voice of a vocal minority right?

[brazen olive]

Wdym?

[tall heron]

It’s a curse among melee slashers

[brazen olive]

You mean in mordhau or this game?

[fathom aurora]

noo, it's not just disagreement in mord, lol. Well, disagreements on like... eugenics :S

[worn marsh]

Mord top Archers are wild in game and out. They would be timed out faster than me responding to personal insults when I don’t say anything against the rules.

[lost hill]

people who will argue to their grave that the class is fine. even if you present them with a 2 hour long video essay with visual examples of the issues that arise and how the counter-arguements only work on paper

[brazen olive]

OH I'm well aware, I think that goes for everyone that still plays mordhau though lmao

[late forum]

Amazes me people have so many hours playing a class and still don’t understand it

[worn marsh]

A 2 hour long video presented by a level 47 Archer talking about the balance or impact of a class is wild. You are still learning the game at that level.

[brazen olive]

I dunno, the anti archer hate seems much more mild in that game

[lost hill]

i meant in this community

[brazen olive]

They'll just murder you for playing archer instead of complaining

[worn marsh]

That’s because they can be placated by PvE and Customization

[late forum]

you don’t need to be level 10 to understand archer

[lost hill]

ah. well you see. im older than you, so i know more than you

thats the logic youre using.

[late forum]

hell you don’t need to 10 years old to understand it

[brazen olive]

What are you referencing?

[worn marsh]

Of course knowing point and shoot is simple to understand the same as melee being simple

[deep viper]

I still haven't figured out the ballistics of arrows and bolts.

[worn marsh]

The guy making all the claims here. That is his archer level apparently.

[tall heron]

Just riposte overhead sheez

Still harder than shooting arrows

[late forum]

point and shoot with accuracy

[deep viper]

But the balista is still the funniest.

[fathom aurora]

there it issss

[lost hill]

keeper just has an elitest mentality of "if you dont have 6k hours in the game on a single weapon, youre not allowed to understand it

im sorry it took you 500 levels and youre still not understanding. i was able to figure it out in about 20.

[late forum]

no logic

[worn marsh]

I’m sorry I have no trust in a level accomplished in a week when it comes to class balance

[worn marsh]

lol it’s literally 1-1

[late forum]

my archers is level 40

[worn marsh]

Nice man, good for you.

[lost hill]

ive been alive longer than you right. your brain is still developing. so how can you possibly learn a game?

[late forum]

but i have accuracy

so level doesn’t matter

[fathom aurora]

now my comment calling it is too far up

[late forum]

if we were talking about melee level may play a factor hear

[lost hill]

as soon as he asked what my archer level is EVERYONE saw it coming.

[worn marsh]

How does your age (18+) impact your ability to intelligently talk about a class in game outside?

[late forum]

i just don’t under him

understand

[fathom aurora]

nvm I went and fished it out

[worn marsh]

How many one ways are on Rudhelm for Archers? What’s the best shot to kill the left wall? When is a Fire Arrow a good option?

[lost hill]

whats your knight level?

[tall heron]

Archer lvl is so dumb because at the core of the issue is dying to archers that get every benefit from range doesn’t feel satisfying at all

[late forum]

i see low knight i shoot

[worn marsh]

Lol muh fun isn’t an argument

[fathom aurora]

I don't care how the chef made the shit sandwich, I don't want to eat the shit sandwich

[late forum]

then teammates help in melee which i probably won’t need

[lost hill]

im curious of what your other class levels are.

[fathom aurora]

stop arguing for the double decker shit sandwich

[worn marsh]

You not knowing is a perfect examples of why level would make a difference , you learn these things with time.

The same with triple feints, toe drags and ground candles on melee.

[late forum]

and crossbow has the one handed axe? crazy

[fathom aurora]

just because you like shit sandwiches

[late forum]

all irrelevant

[worn marsh]

Your inability to discern the difference is your fault, it’s not irrelevant you are just ignorant

[lost hill]

have you ever worked at a job where the higher ups make really confusing changes that dont make sense? because they dont know how to do the job theyre making changes to?

i feel thats very similar situation. youve spent all your time PLAYING archer, but not much time PLAYING AGAINST it as a melee

[fathom aurora]

you knowing the best spots to dish out free damage does not make the free damage any more skillful

[late forum]

all you need to do is aim and shoot and accuracy seeing as if i don’t mention it joker won’t understand

accuracy isn’t something i would consider skill when you have 20 chances

20 arrows 20 chances

[worn marsh]

I’m out, this is pointless. I leave you level 40 archers to talk about nerfing a class you started playing 2 weeks ago.

Good luck!

[lost hill]

i would argue slightly. being harder to punish is a skill

how many new archers do you see standing 2 foot from their frontline and die to swipe spam

[fathom aurora]

bye

[late forum]

and i’m already crushing lobby’s!

[lost hill]

well i mean, at least we're not trying to buff one of the most oppressive classes in game due to our EXTREME BIAS because thats all we play...

[late forum]

come back after another 700 levels see if you know anything at all about archers

[lost hill]

if he hasnt learn yet. something tells me even if it smacked him in the face. he would say it was a skill issue and youre playing the class wrong

[late forum]

Even if this gets no where i still feel this went will as it hold have.

could*

[fathom aurora]

he won't learn, ziggy literally told you at the start

[late forum]

I had a lot of fun

[fathom aurora]

the occasional good discussions were nice, and so was the rest of this zoo

[late forum]

i like talking to people that have no self awareness, keeps you on your toes!

[lost hill]

keeper is the equivalent of that "one friend"... that always picked oddjob in goldeneye for the n64...

they dont seem to realize how much of an advantage they have, but theyre always eager to tell you how much better of a player they are.

[brazen olive]

Guys we were doing so well despite disagreeing don't break my heart 😭

[late forum]

Doesn’t matter if you don’t when or what to shoot or when to use fire arrows or where to stand. That has nothing to do with the counter plays to archers and in the end all archer is aim and shoot and stay aware

know*

[fathom aurora]

or anime teleport around the map apparently

[lost hill]

nah, just tell them "hey archer, i see you. you cant shoot me now"..

and use your "be aware of the archer"

[late forum]

I think i’ve done pretty well i had to deal with mr joker and his side kick keeper

[lost hill]

you got that backwards. joker is the sidekick

keeper is the main boss to anyone who is capable of teaching.

[fathom aurora]

no I like boy wonder keepr

[late forum]

Figured as much i don’t usually take part in discord but i was bored tonight and wanted to share my thoughts

[lost hill]

i'll do what i can to get some rough footage together, i'll actually do a "video essay" with live commentary of archer gameplay. and melee gameplay with the intent to kill archers.

[late forum]

You’d have to force them to watch it though lol they can’t face the facts

[sharp root]

See this is why the archers shoot you

Because you are choosing to find archers

[late forum]

This is for research purposes only.

[fathom aurora]

@sharp root you can leave the corners, it's okay, the arrows aren't real

[lost hill]

if you dont choose to find archers, archers to freely shoot whoever they want.

i understand your point. but what youre seeming to miss is that theyre shooting me, because im posing a threat

any melee is going to fight people who are swinging at them, because if they dont. they die.. same with archers.

[late forum]

You can play hide and seek with killing and bandaging but i mean they shouldn’t be able to get alway with free damage with few counter plays

[tall heron]

Avoiding them altogether is not good gameplay

[late forum]

Sadly it’s the only really viable way

Now that i took part in this thread am i deemed a “anti archer”

or archer hater

[tall heron]

You already have tight enough desertion zones, along with don’t go within an archers sight line zones

[lost hill]

nah, everyone except keeper understands that you just want healthier gameplay for all involved.

[sharp root]

My agatha vanguard's customisation is the most brightly coloured thing you can possibly make

[fathom aurora]

desertion zones are another issue but they can be a problem. dark forest is particularly bad for this

[sharp root]

And I still don't have a problem with archers

[late forum]

Not asking for much

[fathom aurora]

in your corner

[late forum]

you said you were OCE right?

[sharp root]

Yes

[late forum]

The games not dead there yet?

[lost hill]

if youre playing vanguard. and not having issues with archers...

either youre playing against bad archers, or youre playing behind cover to a point youre effectively just an afk with extra steps.

[tall heron]

Like shit if I wanted to have to grab a shield, dodge, worry about a projectile taking 50% + of my health there are better bullet hell games than Chivalry 2

[sharp root]

You want me in the corner to be outside of your bubble

I get it now

[fathom aurora]

you're in the corner already

[tall heron]

It’s the Wild West out here

[fathom aurora]

idk what's going on it's 5am im tired af

[late forum]

12:30am

[fathom aurora]

weird

[lost hill]

the ocean is secretly a time machine....

[fathom aurora]

you cant fool me, ocean man

[late forum]

That’s what they want you to believe

[lost hill]

its true though. airplanes are also time machines. you can take a flight to yesterday...

[tall heron]

Put me in a region that respects the archer limit

[lost hill]

put me in a region where archers cant aim and arent a threat to melee players.. i'd be the best archer theyve ever seen!

[late forum]

OCE apparently they don’t use archers or there free

Here we have archer mains

[late forum]

it’s okay to be a threat to melee players but give us counter plays that doesn’t completely change your class and play style

[final orbit]

nerfing controller aimbot at close range within 10-15 meters would be a good change, to make it more viable using well timed crouches and footwork to evade shots while closing the distance

[late forum]

agree

[lost hill]

i proposed making archer take increased damage from all thrown items aswell as arrows, giving them a faster weapon swap to their secondary..

every class can throw a weapon. and 11/12 classes have secondaries to fall back on (if they choose to throw their primary)

doing heavy damage to an archer (a 2 handed weapon that is thrown will down an archer) would give melee focused classes a chance to remove the threat of the arrow, weather that be from downing the archer, or force them to pull out their secondary in order to block

classes like skirmisher/ambusher/crusader would be GREAT choices, as they have multiple throwing weapons. footman would be the only class that would have uncounter-able issues with archers at that point. but they also have spike traps, and blockades (for field engineer) that are great tools for giving yourself cover (spike traps require you to crouch)

[vagrant eagle]

Only thing i remember how they nerfed archers on a game was that they were far slower with the range equipment

Unable to really run away, but again the archer issue wont be solved since theres not enough good archers

And good ones tend to usually join attackers

[late forum]

at that point i’d just leave archers the way they are already

[late forum]

real

[unreal patrol]

I think my ideas are the best ideas. :)

[brazen olive]

Seems unbiased

[unreal patrol]

I saw keeper going 38 - 4 in TO, I don't think he's getting that KD to 8 anytime soon.

[brazen olive]

An absolutely pitiful KD, pls buff archer 😔

[thorn robin]

Just play Archer

[lost hill]

yeah, theyre super weak.. they die to catapults... i know, its tragic, they need more then buffs, they need a full on miracle

[worn marsh]

You happen to know the math on 38-4? Is it above 8?

Thanks for watching bud, always nice to hear from a fan. But maybe head to bed.

[unreal patrol]

I meant 38 takedowns. :)

Besides, I wasn't watching you. You were just there. ;)

[hushed dagger]

don't know if anyone suggested that.

Im not bothered by longshots or medium range shots who get me... They are often deserved and make the battlefield more dangerous to traverse, which is fun and should not be changed.

Im bothered by the melee range archers, Can just be my personal feeling but they get my head every time.

So my suggestion. Make arrows blockable on really close range(like 5m or sth). This should drain a lot of stamina and the archer would have time to pull out their melee weapon.

In my Mind this would incentive the archer to use their melee weapon and the attacker would have lost a lot of stamina for blocking and the fight is not as opressive for the archer.

[worn marsh]

Nah it was

69-34-04 right when the last point started.

Thanks for the shout outs in his chat also.

PS: Nobody stream snipes in this game lol

[brazen olive]

Why are you bothered by the ones that actually position in a place that you can rush them? Archers that sit way in the back are much more aggravating imo, they just miss more shots.

[candid pulsar]

Nerf Aim Assist. It’s literally aimbot sometimes and also incredibly frustrating for a skilled player because the game doesn’t want to let you aim where you want only because somebody ran past your crosshair.

[hushed dagger]

might be my playstyle. Like running around like a maniac

[shrewd hemlock]

dude bosco plays this game?

nothing wrong with front line archering. thats the trade off of getting "easier" targets is putting yourself closer to the danger

[worn marsh]

Absolutely no problem with playing any class the way you like.

I would just recommend Longbow for front line so you aren’t stamina starved like you would be with the Warbow.

Not sure who Bosco is but we had a few good 1v1’s. He was always quick to commend.

[shrewd hemlock]

bosco is a helper bot for when you play solo in drg

agree about warbow

[glass path]

I agree.

A noob should experience defeats commensurate with their technique. No mechanical assistance should be allowed to rob them of that experience.

[unreal patrol]

Warbow main who sits in the back recommends Longbow in the front to new player

Surely there are no alterior motives to this recommendation

[worn marsh]

Helping others with what I actually know about and not just spreading misinformation is what I am great at.

Also accurately recalling a persons score even when it shows I was accidently praising them.

69-34-04 : )

[tall heron]

Like you playing starship troopers and shooting bugs that have little to no counter play archers really just playin a PVE game. Their KD reflects as such

[lost hill]

can someone explain to me how a longbow "stamina starves" you? are you holding your shot while zoomed in for 3 years?

which causes inaccuracy, once you get lower on stamina, the shot has variance. firing with the proper timing has a fairly minor stamina drain overall.

[brazen olive]

He said that about the warbow, not the longbow

[lost hill]

even the warbow doesnt drain your stamina to a point that youd be "stamina starved" unless you hold your arrow back for too long, the crosshair is effectively a timer, the side bars will close in on the center dot

once they close in, they start widening again, which shows that your shot will not be as accurate as it would have been with the bars closer to the crosshair

ever felt like your shot didnt go where you were aiming, that could be the reason (firing at half draw has the same effect)

[brazen olive]

I know lol

[lost hill]

but does he...?

and any newer archers that read that, something that isnt really explained in the gameplay unless youre paying attention to it

[worn marsh]

You would be stamina starved on a Warbow since you can finish off people with Jump/Drag shots to get over the front line as a Longbow. This is the optimal playstyle unless you are flanking for last shots.

If you do the same shot with a Warbow you will lose 1/2 your Stamina with more than 1 shot. Which now puts you at a massively disadvantaged state and essential stamina starved because if you do 1 more you now are just in regen mode. Where a single flanker can disarm you if you have to block and you are dead. Hence the term "Stamina Starved" .

This is basic Archer stuff. I get why you are confused.

[lost hill]

edit: i see what he's refering too, yeah. totally. you cant get highground in the backlines..

and "drag shots"... keeper is such a god at archer, he figured out how to curve arrows

[worn marsh]

Why do you just lie all the time? At no point did I say at melee range lmao.

[lost hill]

hey IMAX, yeah, you cant read it seems.

[worn marsh]

You edited when I pressed send because you can’t read Lmao.

[lost hill]

i mean. point still stands, youre telling me that you cant find any highground, on a class that can CREATE highground... while standing safely in the backlines?

[worn marsh]

If you use your spike to create high ground at the front line you are a massive target for everything.

I honestly don’t see why you talk about Archer so much when you have absolutely no idea how it’s played.

[lost hill]

to be fair, using your full loadout is a bit above the basics. you havnt gotten that far

[lost hill]

did i say to use the spike in the front line?

why do you always need to lie because you cant read.

[worn marsh]

How are you going to get a high ground on the front line?

[lost hill]

yeah. what prescription are your glasses? i think you need to get that updated..

and if you think archers belong in the frontline... and you claim that i know nothing about archer

... one of us is CLEARLY wrong about our points, we can let a jury decide.

[worn marsh]

I wish I could lie like you. But I was raised with integrity

[lost hill]

nice deflection and projection..

now again, WHY would you play archer in the frontline and completely ignore the strength of the class being that it can damage FROM RANGE..?

[inner pecan]

here we go again

[lost hill]

its going to get good, i'll make sure.

bring unsalted popcorn though. keeper has you in supply of all you'll ever need... for life.

[worn marsh]

Two words you understand as well as the Archer class.

Longbow(the default) archer class is close range and not optimal for long distance.

Why are you pretending to know about a class you don’t play?

It’s why you see Knight Archers use it because it eliminates the biggest downside. Health

[lost hill]

and what do you refer to as "close range" with a bow?

from my experience, 20m or so is about the closest an archer is going to get to fight that is even, or not your favor.

[worn marsh]

10- 20m Long Bow

20-40 Crossbow

40-100 Warbow

Again this is basic and I mean extremely basic understanding of the Archer class

[lost hill]

can you show me the source on this information please?

[worn marsh]

Can you show me yours? I have the stats and results to back me up.

You have what? A profile you won’t even share?

[lost hill]

im not asking for your stats or levels silly

im asking for the paper source of where youre claiming this "factual and definite" information from

or are you pulling it from your ass, claiming it for fact?

[worn marsh]

That’s how I know you lost lmao

[lost hill]

thats how i know this "source" is what you claim. and you claim it to be fact

youre saying that you are the only correct source of information for an archer

yet, you dont compete, you dont coach.. you have what, 30 subscribers on your youtube, and most people in this game dont know who you are

[worn marsh]

Go ask any Archer main

They will back that up

Its not often I get to hand out so many L’s in a row but man you two took them

[lost hill]

but... you are always 100% correct and the best archer..

with stats that youve yet to show me where youre getting the information from

[worn marsh]

Those who can’t coach , never has that been more true than right now.

[lost hill]

well, i asked myself. and i disagree. so clearly is not universally agreed on

and saying youre "handing out Ls"... makes you sounds like youre 12, but.. you were raised with integrity

chill out imax, youre contradicting yourself too much for me to keep up with at this point

[worn marsh]

I’m out, enjoy the free knowledge and credit me when you use it in the future.

[lost hill]

do you have a 3rd party source that can back your claims about your k/d and being the #1 archer?

[lost hill]

yeah... thats what i thought. you always stop talking to me when i ask you to back up what youre saying..

stay golden imax, youre the best jester ive seen

[inner pecan]

He did show stats in last thread and he is listed as ranked 7 Archer

[lost hill]

what source though?

[inner pecan]

https://chivstats.xyz/ExperienceArcher/ And his stats are from his progression page that he did post from last thread

[lost hill]

thats experience, am i missing a k/d tab?

[inner pecan]

The experience is from Kills/Assists in order to get his KDR is from his progression page that he shown last thread

[worn marsh]

Also #2 Warbow even with taking a 5 month break.

[lost hill]

so what im gathering, is that if i spend all my free-time playing archer, playing safe in the backline. only playing on the winning team.

THEN imax will respect what i say?

[lost hill]

sounds like there isnt much competition then... which devalues your accomplishment

nice L you handed our there.

[worn marsh]

Whatever helps you cope man

[inner pecan]

I mean the top 3 players on that page i linked are all front line Archers

Dogdevwaters is Javdouche He top Jav user

yeah and keeper is number 2 for warbow spot

[lost hill]

so.. youre saying that not playing in the back is better than sitting back?

hey imax, you taking notes?

[worn marsh]

Their play style backs up what I have said for each range and play style for weapons bud.

[inner pecan]

Im not inclining any of this as im not getting involved im just showing you his facts just to push this argument along lol.

[lost hill]

but i'll be the first to admit, achers that play closer, take most risks and have opportunities for higher reward (more consistent headshots)

where archers that sit back. get moderate reward for minimal risk.

[worn marsh]

What’s your archer rank?

2000 pages you have to be on one bud

[inner pecan]

If his name is Random then he ranked 78

[lost hill]

whats your IQ?

[worn marsh]

He has never said, I don’t assume it’s the same. It’s why I asked for his profile screenshot. So it’s not up to debate.

Not sure why he won’t do it

[lost hill]

i also find it amusing that all the "melee mains" do not fear you. and often laugh at your attempts to claim glory...

meaning, youre not enough of a threat to them

[worn marsh]

Cool man, anyways post your profile so I can check and we can continue.

[lost hill]

because youve already proven that youre going to try and use it as a leverage point because its all you have going....

TIME PLAYED=/=KNOWLEDGE OR SKILL

since you cant understand THAT.. i doubt you are going to actually understand anything i try and tell you

[worn marsh]

Not a picture, let me know when you do.

I’m out

[lost hill]

how old are you? honestly, im asking...

because im 99% sure ive been debating with an actual child.

and using your own logic... i know more than you do about EVERYTHING. because i am older.

[fathom aurora]

ha

[tepid hinge]

You sound like a child with that comment.

[sharp root]

The worst part of it all is that no one actually is

[lost hill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKNLRnQ3GVI

finally decided to clip the issue with archers. this video shows some of the biggest issues that melee classes face against archers (especially on defense)

[brazen olive]

I don't really think this is the best example to use, your decision making wasn't great here

First you use up all of your throwing axes, one of your main tools to combat archers, and don't back up to use quiver or resupply despite seeing that the crossbowman is obviously singling you out. Then you decide to take on a 1v3 with your back to the archer that was staring at you, which could have at least been workable if you put your shield on your back but you didn't.

In this scenario I think you should have retreated to either use quiver/resupply or at least back up so you're in a position where you are facing both the archer and the enemies in melee, so your shield is out in front of you, the enemies are in the way of the archer's shot, and you can take advantage of the counter windows while fighting them to lessen the chance of being shot.

I understand the frustration in experiencing what is often unavoidable damage, but I think there are far better examples than this lil clip.

[lost hill]

this was just an example, imagine playing something like a guardian or raider

not every class has great tools to deal with archers, but the "bring a shield" is out the window, and this is proof

i understand that i could have played that situation better, but overall. i would have to hit 2 throwing axes, doesnt matter if i used javs or not. still would have to land 2.

if the "counter play" is to make it "more difficult" for the archer, its not counterplay. its just your best option

as for the "you should have retreated".. that only shows the power that archer has over positioning that their mere EXISTANCE is enough to dictate how far you can push. this completely invalidate classes like ambusher who's core gameplay IS to be behind the melee players, making use of the backstab passive

again, thats not an end all-be all example. but that does throw out A LOT of the counterpoints people have tried to make saying that archer is in an okay spot

[brazen olive]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the class is perfect, I just think you could find better examples of the frustration they create.

I think the problem is that the counters to archers aren't really mechanical (aside from throwing shit at them), they are positioning/decision making-based and they also depend on what's available in your toolkit. I think changes to the maps to avoid huge open spaces and allow more flank routes would help a ton, as well as reducing the desertion zones a whole lot.

Personally I don't really care about the "unavoidable damage" aspect much aside from when it's via absurd aim assist. I'm also not a level 1000 god that never dies in melee though. I think Torn Banner heavily caters this game to casual players and as such I feel that they intend for even noob archers to be able to take out high level players given enough time. There's a clash between casual gamers that don't invest much time into the game and just want to shoot shit without putting much effort in and players that dunk on everyone and know the mechanics in and out.

[lost hill]

i agree that map design is a core part of what make archers so strong. but there are A LOT of things that torn banner could do in order to make it healthier

like armor actually being worth something.. (less damage from arrows, hint hint)

i dont mind it being unblockable with weapons, but even a shield is almost useless unless your holding block

or.. make the passive block of the shield what the active block is now.. make it work taking

[worn marsh]

Lmao you are over extended as an Archer and get killed.

This does show the biggest problem with Archers. They punish over extending players who lack awareness lol.

This has to be trolling.

[lost hill]

my point, it didnt matter what class i was playing, i couldnt touch that archer in melee...

ya know. where archer is weakest..

youre just upset that you cant argue against the facts at hand

[worn marsh]

Facts

1. Overextended
2. Trying to spawn camp as weakest class in Melee
3. Stare at the archer
4. Die

At no point did you pose a threat to the Archer free firing from that hill at all.

You played poorly and the result is your death. That is your fault not the balance of anything. That death was 100% your poor choices.

[lost hill]

you can troll all you want, i was aware of the archer

-couldnt get to the archer due to the deserter zone.

-couldnt hold up my shield to block due to stamina drain

and even if i chose to use quiver, i was going to eat an arrow.

it takes (at least) 2 thrown weapons to kill an archer, and thats hoping you KILL them, not downing them.

i could have played it better, but regardless. archer is too safe of a class in order to have the power that it does.

[lost hill]

hey keeper, did you think that i stared at the archer, BECUASE THATS LITTERALLY ALL I COULD DO??

if you notice, which i doubt you did, because again. it shows that your debate points hold 0 weight and youre just a fanboy scared he might actually have to learn how to play the game.

[worn marsh]

All of this is solved by using your head and not playing in their spawn.

Class balance isn’t decided by your absolutely horrible gameplay choices here.

This isn’t the example you think it is and it is honestly hilarious

[lost hill]

you would see, i stepped into the deserter area, and realized pretty quick, theres no way im getting to that archer, killing them. and getting out of deserter before i die.. its plausible but VERY unlikely

[worn marsh]

Again you’re over extended and playing poorly.

That isn’t a class balance thing that’s a your poor choices.

[lost hill]

read. you didnt read the description of the video..

you didnt read what i typed...

so read this. because as someone who complains that people dont read what you type, you do it A SHIT TON

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT CLASS I WAS PLAYING, THE ISSUES ARE STILL EASILY NOTICABLE BY ANYONE WITH AN IQ OVER 3<<<<

[worn marsh]

He wouldn’t be free firing if you weren’t in his spawn would he?

❌

[lost hill]

okay, keeper. tell me, how could i have killed that archer without throwing weapons

please enlighten me oh guru of archers

[worn marsh]

You don’t play there, it’s a horrible choice. You aren’t adding anything at all besides special meter.

[lost hill]

that didnt kill the archer, try again.

if i didnt play there, they would have just shot someone else.

[worn marsh]

Again you assume you deserve to kill him.

You don’t have the right class picked, flank, or even anything there to try to blame anything but yourself.

[lost hill]

how could i flank someone outside of the boundaries that im allowed to play?

[lost hill]

also, thats not telling me how to kill the archer

so... again... try again, you keep dodging like always

[worn marsh]

You are in an open field where you are safe from their archers on the objective with cover.

You passed all that to go into an open field.

Again that’s your horrible choice

You can’t balance classes around bad choices

[lost hill]

thats not killing the archer that was playing in the open

try again

[worn marsh]

Lmao I love that you think you have something here besides an Top 10 how to not play clip here

[lost hill]

you keep blaming it on my gameplay. but no one.. and i repeat NO ONE

could have done better there, because all the results end up the same

you either TRY and kill subclass that can put up MOBILE COVER.. with throwing weapons

or you just dont be there.

[lost hill]

keep dodging the question kiddo

youre #1 at dodging

[worn marsh]

Because nobody is trying to stop an Archer that has 0 impact on the 2 objectives on the hill.

This clip could been avoided by playing with your team.

[lost hill]

because you know the class you play takes about 3 braincell and you dont even have to be good at aiming, YOU ARE PROOF OF THAT.

and you can roll the lobby

[worn marsh]

You proved that isn’t correct

[lost hill]

watch the clip again... if you look,, i was playing with my team.

but oh wait.. you didnt see that because it would require paying attention to something that isnt your own ego

[worn marsh]

I did they are on Cats, you are pushing the spawn.

Again you are proving Archers are fine

[lost hill]

they were on cats?... the guys fighting to my right... were on cats?

so the whole mason team just decided they were going to stop there and have a dance party?... is that it?

[worn marsh]

You played Archer

Died as Archer

OMG ARCHERS ARE BROKEN

[lost hill]

omg... its almost like someone who plays the class... understands that its broken and needs to be changed

ya know whats awesome about that....

you dont even have to play archer much to realize its broken and needs changed.

[worn marsh]

You played poorly and were countered by your own class.

[lost hill]

hey keeper, you consider yourself to be an expert on archers, right?

[worn marsh]

I’m not near as good as you since you are older and know better as you have claimed

[lost hill]

so answer this... and try not to dodge it...

why does skirmisher take extra damage from archer... but doesnt get any bonuses AGAINST them...?

[worn marsh]

Because they are Anti-Melee Archers. Not Anti-Archer archers, pretty common sense.

Still kill in a Headshot though

[lost hill]

a class with 100% blockable damage... is anti-melee?

and i mean, i die to a warbow body shot.. so... one of us needs skill.. the other just needs to click warbow.

[worn marsh]

You are upset you died as an Archer as an Archer.

I suggest you pick a class that lets you eat more arrows while you feed on the flank.

Work on your awareness bud , I got to go!

[lost hill]

and, if archer is anti-archer... doesnt that just make them EVEN MORE BROKEN.. because theyre the only class that can kill one of the stronger classes in casual TO?

[lost hill]

see. you sit here an personally attack me because you cant face the facts.

there was nothing i could do to that archer... but the archer was the only one to damage me.

typical children. talking like they actually know what the fuck theyre talking about.

i honestly dont even care how old you are.. i could show you something plain as day and you'd still say it doesnt exist

youre and egotistical, narcissistic child. that doesnt know SHIT about the game.

[worn marsh]

Are you trying to insult me for pointing out you died from poor gameplay?

That is sad man.

[lost hill]

the proof is in the video, even if i was playing guardian. there isnt a single thing i could have done to that archer

i see why you play the class now, youre too scared to die

[worn marsh]

You would have ran to the objective and lived as a Knight.

With probably 50-75% life

[lost hill]

btw, you say that the "counter" to archer is positioning, decision making etc

that works to a degree, but sadly. most of the maps tend to force people to standing in the open, while offering high ground for archers to play that is virtually untouchable by melee classes, as they have to run through spawn in order to get to the archer

IF we choose to keep archer in the same state, we need to reduce how many you can have, even further. a team of 32 should should only have 2-3, instead of the 6, all it takes is 3 archer hitting the same person and there isnt ANYTHING they can do, thats enough to kill most classes

longbow-great and just pumping in damage, softening targets or finishing off lower health players

warbow-the only anti-archer weapon in game, but still does 70 to everyone else on a body shot

crossbow-does extra damage to armor, has mobile cover, making them extremely safe against ballista/thrown/warbows/etc

and then there is skirmisher, which ive yet to hear a single player have a legit complaint about, since the damage it blockable, its slow, and require the skirmisher to be within a reasonable range (long range throws are 20-30m)

[lost hill]

didnt kill the archer, try again.

[worn marsh]

You don’t have to kill an Archer to win.

You seem to be stuck on that, this isn’t 1v1 bud.

Go play with your team not feeding and making bad clips.

[lost hill]

didnt kill the archer... try again

ya know.. im starting to think that you dont know how i could have killed the archer there.

[worn marsh]

Didn’t play the objective … try again

If this was TDM your clip may be worth talking about.

It’s not

[lost hill]

didnt kill the archer... try again

btw. in order for me to play the objective, i need to be alive. thats hard to do when im taking unblockable damage from a source that i cant do anything to

so.. please. continue on digging your hole

[worn marsh]

It isn’t TDM

Its TO

The objective is behind you

[lost hill]

didnt kill the archer

try.... again...

[worn marsh]

Is it TDM?

[lost hill]

does killing the enemy make playing the objective easier

didnt kill the archer, try again kiddo

[worn marsh]

Didn’t answer

Is it TDM?

[lost hill]

and youve yet to answer...

so ... didnt kill the archer, try again...

if your only way to talk yourself out of this is to change the subject, youre shit at debating.

[worn marsh]

Because it’s TO and not TDM

The maps are made to be pushed forward not backwards

Learning this will help you bud!

[lost hill]

does killing the enemy make playing the objective easier

didnt kill the archer, try again kiddo

im just going to start copy-pasting, it'll save me some typing.

[worn marsh]

If they are on the point or shooting it.

This archer wasn’t doing that and just sitting in his spawn with 0% impact on the game.

[lost hill]

does killing the enemy make playing the objective easier

didnt kill the archer, try again kiddo

[worn marsh]

I did answer this. I’m sorry you don’t understand, just copy and paste that again if I am right.

[lost hill]

you see, we keep going in circles because you dont have a counter-point, you didnt answer

your logic is "your not on point, so that archer doesnt matter"

my counterpoint-

if that archer comes up and start hitting the defending players for free, they take damage. and die, thus, letting the offense complete the objective.

[worn marsh]

This would be a great counter point if

1. The Archer could shoot the objective

2. You were on the objective

But you have neither 1 or 2.

You going back to the objective and not playing TDM would have helped your team.

That’s the point of TO

[lost hill]

if i was on the objective, where would the archer be?

thats correct mr genius keeper!.. he would be firing arrows onto the defenders who... are on the objective!

wow, so much changed in that scenario. how dare i be so foolish to see that NOT A DAMN THING CHANGES

[worn marsh]

From that hill he can only shoot the back of the 1 cat and that will be more than likely Team Damage.

He was standing there clearing his spawn, what he is supposed to do.

Again your poor choice isn’t showcasing Archer being broken, if anything your poor choice shows how easy it is to counter the class.

Thanks man, I am going back to Diablo.

Good luck!

[lost hill]

look keeper, i have have 10+ years in competitve gaming, and something that you dont seem to understand in the slightest

is space control, in order to complete the objective, you need to be AT the objective, therefore its not only logical, its actually much more effective to fight IN FRONT of the objective, and not on it.

this is due to multiple factors, but mostly controlling natural chokepoints and being able to leverage out multiple fights before they threaten the objective (lets say you die at your first hold, you still have at least 1 more chance to have a spawn wave catch them before they get to the objective)

now, with the current deserter zones being how they are. the closer the offense gets, the further the defense spawns, meaning... again... you want to PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING CLOSE TO THE OBJECTIVE, in order to have spawns that are closer to the objective in order to setup a proper defense in the case that your initial defense fails

thus, controlling the flank prevent players from being able to get around your initial hold. leaving your frontline in a really bad spot due to being caught on both sides, which is effectively a death sentence

as you can see in my clip, thats what im doing, me and a few of my teammates. are controlling the flank preventing a rather large force, from looping behind use, making defending the catapults MUCH more difficult

unfortunate for me, i caught the eye of an archer who was outside of the area i was allowed to play in. and i couldnt afford to hold up my shield for as long as he could hold up a crossbow (which is forever, in case you didnt realize)

my options:

-run, and get shot as i ran away

-try throwing things at the archer, which i was using throwing axes, that dont exactly fly far. and require 2 to kill. and have ~2 second recovery, meaning im open to a return shot for more damage

-try and be mobile making it difficult to hit, which didnt work. as they hit me twice without missing a shot

tldr: the archer showing up, made the flank defense, null. since no matter how well we defend it, we cannot take out the threat of unblockable damage

[unreal patrol]

Glad to see you havent learned your lesson yet Random.

Keep going, you might convince him by next year.

[lost hill]

at this point, shouldnt i have a degree in it?

but its fun to expose how little he knows

[unreal patrol]

If you say so.

[lost hill]

to be fair.. he's trying to preach "dont kill the archer" so he can try and convince people not to kill archers... then brag about having a 7 k/d..

[unreal patrol]

Yeah no shit.

Everyone who's talked to this guy for more than 10 minutes is aware of him and knows what kind of person he is.

[lost hill]

sadly, he's not the only person with that mentality. he's just the VOCAL minority.

[brazen olive]

😔

I would like for everyone to have an enjoyable time

[lost hill]

the only way to make it where everyone has fun, is if everything had counterplay. and required actual input.

if i die to someone in melee, especially in a 1v1, 2v2, etc (small groups) i know that i got outplayed, it was my fault. and i can learn from it.

if i die because someone got a flank, i can learn from it

dying from an archer, especially when youre in the middle of a melee fight. just feels like you got robbed.

in order for the game to be enjoyable. it needs to feel fair.. games like darksouls are notoriously difficult. but theyre fair. and people praise that series to a point it has spawned a "souls-like" genre

[vernal fjord]

well life aint fair

archer=gay

peace

[brazen olive]

And how exactly do you prevent that without making all arrows blockable?

[lost hill]

make the shields passive block have the same effectiveness against arrows as the active block

the whole point of shields in actual combat is that they offer passive protection, similar to armor,

making arrows now do as much damage to armor would also help, which is a subtle buff to the crossbow making it more impactful in its niche

[inner pecan]

Honestly idk what to tell you here as this was just really bad choices on your part.

[lost hill]

youre right, i made the choice to play within the line of sight of an archer

[inner pecan]

It was more then that

[lost hill]

again, i understand that i didnt play it ideally, but overall. the same issue stands, what else could i have done? throwing everything i had at the archer was my best bet. and throwing axes have such poor range that i'd have to throw them at a 45* angle in order to have a chance to hit that range..

and ignoring the 2 seconds it takes to be able to block again. meaning even if i HIT the archer, i take a shot in return

[inner pecan]

Well the issue is you created a bad situation yourself and continued to create it even more in the video you provided. You playing on defense side and left objective/team even going past enemy team which makes no sense, thrown all your throwing weapons away, never recovered using your special, you stopped backing up when you could of walked away from that situation easily with probably half health and never had to fight. Like this is a terrible video to use.

Also why use throwing axes? Javlins are way better in chucking

[lost hill]

it shows the flaws of archer doesnt it?.. its not some super highlight reel

cool, i could have use quiver.. gotten 6 throwing axes back... and have to land 2 of them on the archer to kill them..

or i could have just "walked away".. because THAT FIXED THE PROBLEM... he's no longer shooting at me.. and now shooting at my teammates, congrats. that solved so much of the issue that is archers and i should praise you for that INSIGHTFUL information that doesnt change anything

an archer is going to shoot someone, doesnt matter if its me.. or a teammate, the issue stands the same. and that clip proves to show the limitations of the counterplay we're provided

and this point, im ready to say make all arrow blockable, even with active parry. because the sheer SAFETY of archers.

longbowman gets spiketrap and crossbow gets a pavise, both arrowbased subclasses have portable cover that they can setup to make returning projectiles a null threat.

[lost hill]

i was just wanting to break the norm. yeah. javs are better in every way, range/damage/melee... but with axes.. you get 6!.. whoo.. 6!

[inner pecan]

Honestly this only shows the flaw of poor decision making. Again your on defense rushing the enemy spawn which is why you couldnt go after him cause you ( on Defense ) Rushed the enemy Spawn ( Attackers ). You even had a shield that you could of thrown on your back to passive block the arrows while you run away. You never needed to kill that archer as his position was not even in a threatening spot at all towards objective. Your complaining it would take 2 hits to kill that archer when your playing archer yourself and it still takes 2 hits to kill you with that crossbow. Like im sorry i dont see the argument here, especially when you created such a terrible position for yourself in the first place. Developers dont change things if players are making the mistakes themselves.

[inner pecan]

Stick to Javs till they buff throwing axes lol

[lost hill]

we didnt rush the enemy spawn. we just lost the objective prior and that was in the transition

every issue i pointed out still stands regardless, the deserter zone prevented me from being able to get in melee range (something a guardian or maa would have to do)

the only legit option i had, was to play longbow/warbow/crossbow myself, in order to match his range and damage.. which again, if the only viable counterplay to the mechanic, is the mechanic itself.. then its not healthy.
especially in a game where youre able to fight someone with a shield and your fist if you understand the mechanics

and the devs dont change things regardless. people have been pointing out the issues with archer SINCE BETA. yet they havnt really done anything productive in making them feel more fair to play against

regardless of "youre out of position, you could have done X you could have done Y. i could have won that despite having to go out of bound, past most of the enemy team. killed the archer, gotten out and had a steak dinner to celebrate because im the best player!!!"

the issues stand the same. the only counterplay i could have had there, is

1. dont be there any ignore the problem, hoping that he doesnt shoot at me... (aka, nothing gets fixed, you just swept it under the rug)

2. thrown my axes at him in hopes of killing him, possibly success, but in that situation, i would have to use my special in a situation that i was likely to die regardless

there is a reason ive been pushing so hard for throwing weapons to do bonus damage against archers, its something simple to implement that would give most subclasses suitable counterplay

[inner pecan]

If you just lost the objective then why you still pushing up instead of falling back like you normally do to defend the next objective. Again the archer was in no threatening position then since like you said they already taken the objective, so now desertion moved up to where the now mason spawn is meaning there is no point of even going after that archer since objectives have changed sites which you should have been moving too as defender. Instead of falling back you choose to try to rush an archer in his newly formed spawn which again ( Feel like a broken record at this point ) had no threating position of the " New " Objective. The issue to your argument is your trying to kill someone in their spawn and you cant kill them cause of desertion which is what the developers put in to try to prevent players from spawn killing. This is implemented in every game you can think of when it comes to a attacker/defender mode. You play defense and opponents take your objective. What do you do? You fall back to the next objective or desertion zone kills you cause you are now in the attackers new spawn.

Like you show people this video, everyone is gonna say the same thing is you put yourself in a bad position and its the reason why you got killed

[lost hill]

i pointed this out earlier in the "space control" section of the explanation i typed up

also, with the chase mechanics in game. even if i turned to run away. someone could have just caught up to me. and i would have been forced into the same situation

and that archer is in range to be a threat to the new objective. its like 30m from him to the closer catapult

even IF i backed up.. the archer is still safe in his backline. has access to self deployed mobile cover... and gets to plink away at whoever they see fit

stop focusing on the clip and focus the concept

archers... get unblockable damage... while being virtually impossible to kill by melee.... and have access to negate most range threats...

the SAFETY of the archer is a lot of why theyre so annoying to play against. yes its unblockable damage. but its damage you CANT RETURN, unless the map gives you a catapult. a ballista, or you play archer

and there are a ton of archer spots that ballista physically cannot hit, due to the projectile size connecting with cover in from of the archer, you either aim too high, or your bolt hits terrain

[inner pecan]

" stop focusing on the clip and focus the concept " Thats your issue right there. You post a clip and say this is the reason why this, this and this is bad. But when you look at the video they see nothing wrong with this, this and this cause the player played poorly. Im going off the evidence you decided to use and which you tell people this is the reality but then tell people to stop focusing on the clip cause they only see you at fault, then you already lost your case. Im focusing on the clip cause that is what i was replying too as i stated this is a terrible video to use. Just like you guys did with Keeper you used his videos against him. Like everything you typing right now to explain why you did this, this and this i can tell you its what you did wrong since i see it. Like you say chase mechanic people will catch up, the first 10 seconds of the video no one was focusing you besides that archer and thats an ez amount of time to get out of that situation without a chase since you still had teammates fighting behind you. That archer was not a threat to that objective i looked at it multiple times, he would have had major issues shooting from where he was standing. His backline was down a hill if your team kept the objective so he had no way of plinking at who ever he felt like. Archers technically dont have unblockable damage since there are ways to block them lol. The safety of the archer is annoying but there really isnt anything you can do about it while not making it completely unfair towards archers and thats every game. Even if someone were to bring history into it then it even shows then just how a pain in the ass they were back then which is why they invented the marvelous shields to counter them. The Ballista part ive seen videos of people shooting those through the embrasure's of the castle parts of the game i dont see the issue with that either. I can link a video to show you what i mean.

Im heading to bed so any replies you have ill see later

[lost hill]

then youve mistook 90% of what ive been saying the entire time. im not going to read the novel, because honestly, we're not even in the same book, let alone on the same page

ive been pointing out the issue, and the clip is to SHOWCASE some of the issue in play. its to give a visual example

its not for everyone and their mother to say how much better of a player they are. im not great at the game, i know this..

but after over 10 years of playing games at a competitive level, several of those being in trophy brackets.. ive learned a bit about how to understand the mechanics of a game

an archer on offense. has a much easier time than an archer on defense, because they never have to turn their back in order to reposition.. they never have to deal with the chase mechanic

an archer on offense also has a lot more room to play with, generally not being stuck into an objective area in order to remain effective, as long as they can see the area (which most objectives are in the open) then they have impact on that fight, without every having to be in range to be danger of it

the defense, in order to deal with said archer, has to use an archer of their own, or extremely overextend to kill an archer, who will respawn quickly. be back in position quickly. while the defense member dies to the next spawn wave

idk about you, but i dont exactly control my teammates like a puppet, i cant force them to swap. i cant force them to focus on the enemy archers.

the LACK OF COUNTERPLAY by anything that isnt another archer, is abysmal... its null to a point it doesnt viably exist

as for your point of

" Even if someone were to bring history into it then it even shows then just how a pain in the ass they were back then which is why they invented the marvelous shields to counter them."

armor... armor was a thing, and it was generally enough to stop an arrow, hence why bodkin tips were invented, and why crossbows got an insane upgrade to full metal limbs, and mechanisms to pull back an extremely strong bow. (war crossbows were in the 1000lbs of draw area)

the way the crossbow in game is drawn, its probably in the 100lbs ish range... thats 1/10 what was used to get through armor

and oh, i also recommended that the armored classes take less arrow damage aswell... hmm, almost like i put thought into my suggestions

[inner pecan]

#1110814303692537856 message This is the book you decided to publish and this is what im reading lol. I read your description and you used a poor example to show it because of how misplaced you were in combat. I dont see how i mistook you 90% of this whole argument when this is what i was talking about the entire time. I mistook you when i just answered all your replies to this video? Makes sense? You trying to use this video as a lack of counter play when your position is way past what it should be as a defender. You play poorly, you used all your throwing weapons that could of easily killed that archer and you never refilled. You never disengaged when you should of/ could of in the first place. Your other issue is your talking about an offense/defense mode which goes only 1 way meaning offense will never have to deal with someone from behind when they shouldnt be since thats where their spawn is lol. If you played over 10 years of comp level game play then i dont understand why i need to explain this to you since you would already know you dont go as defender to leave objective to spawn kill. You stick to the objective and you dont push attacker spawn since there is already a desertion zone that kills you. There is even some games that even prevent you from even getting into the spawn instead of a desertion zone. Every game any offensive team is gonna have more room, more ways to flank and much more safer positioning then defensive team since they dont need to be static like defense. They get to choose where they want to be but defense needs to placed where objective is so they can defend it from what ever angle the attacker decided to go. Im not even saying your a bad player either. A good player can make mistakes and be out of position because they just got way into the zone. Even if say the top player of this game used this example they would get the same feedback, poor game play.

" idk about you, but i dont exactly control my teammates like a puppet, i cant force them to swap. i cant force them to focus on the enemy archers. " This is the same issue for every game, every mode, you name it. You play public lobby, people gonna play how they wanna play. You play Comp then you will see more people picking counters to classes.

" the LACK OF COUNTERPLAY by anything that isnt another archer, is abysmal... its null to a point it doesnt viably exist " It does exist but people just dont use it or dont use it correctly.

[worn marsh]

I would love to see your actual competitive gameplay videos or a full gameplay one in Chiv because the decision making in this clip may be doing you an injustice.

[lost hill]

as you post on my youtube.. and i quote..

" I think him pretending to be a comp player at any game is neat. It’s clear he has the awareness of a blind person and completely freezes when he sees the Archer.

Then he decides to run towards a melee engagement instead of running back to point/cover. While doing this he puts his back towards the Archer…. Who then shoots him and he dies.

At no point has he admitted he

1. Overextended
2. Played horrible
3. Admitted Competitive Bejeweled isn’t a thing"

you know nothing of me, yet you claim to know everything, that seems to be a trend of yours...

have you ever won money in a formal tourney, in game or in real life.

the difference between me and you.. i put logic and thought behind what i say. you just talk down to people because youre scared of them.

what i love most about your post.. "he should have turn and ran away, instead he turned and got shot"

hmm, almost like that outcome was going to happen regardless of what i chose

[worn marsh]

Great story and still going with this pro angle, Amazing.

[lost hill]

great attempt at dodging the fact you contradicted yourself and validated my point!

[worn marsh]

At no point did I contradict myself or validate any of your tangents.

[lost hill]

"Then he decides to run towards a melee engagement instead of running back to point/cover. While doing this he puts his back towards the Archer…. Who then shoots him and he dies."

it doesnt matter if you choose to comprehend it. but this is a contradiction

[worn marsh]

How is that a contradiction….?

1. You gave up on the archer despite having a special to reload

2. You instead go for 1 melee towards the archer and then turn away with your back towards the Archer. You get shot once and change nothing, instead position yourself even easier for him.

3. You didn’t use his teammate as a shield, you didn’t kite him back to safety, you just decided to keep fighting and turn yourself to where you couldn’t even see the arrows coming in.

Everything you did here expect kill the guy who was 1 hit was the worst decision possible.

This was your fault and you had all the tool to live. You just didn’t have the ability to use them.

You need to google contradiction because it’s clear you don’t understand it.

[lost hill]

"you shouldnt have turned away, you should have turned away"

1. the odds of me getting out of that situation while being outnumbered were low, therefore it would have been a waste to use my special there is HOPES of killing the archer

2. i was effectively forced to go for that melee due to the deserter zone preventing me from going for the archer themselves.

3. oh yeah, i forget you cant shoot past teammates so you think that is the perfect counter..

im playing skirmisher, i only have 70 stamina and a quite weak shield. why would i even try to kite back into a 1vX scenario

its really.. .really.. easy to put something on paper and expect it to work. you sounds like a damn politician. you have 0 clue what youre actually talking about , but youre make really opinionated posts about it

but i want you to notice something that you seem to CONSTANTLY IGNORE because it suits your agenda..

me living. doesnt do anything to that archer.. that archer is free to just take shots at whoever they see fit, for free. with no risk of death except from other archers...

or if a catapult user want to kill a single archer with the 10 seconds it took to load the catapult. in which the archer would have already respawned by the time you reloaded

i dont need to good contradiction because i can tell you the origin of the word.

youre telling me "you shouldnt have dont X. you should have done X"

youre opposing what you said to be the correct move, by saying its also the incorrect move.

[tepid hinge]

Lmao you are blaming a class because your horrible play style lol. Of course you gonna get hit with arrows and die you like 20 feet from the archer lol.

[worn marsh]

A lot of words to say “I played bad and my gameplay I submitted wasn’t a good example of what I what to convey, I will find something better instead of trying to pretend it is good”

[lost hill]

thank you joker for this incite. now if you would have actually paid attention. you would have realized the issue

[lost hill]

that a short paragraph that doesnt say

"wow random, youre right. i do talk out of my ass a lot and i did contradict myself"

you can talk down to me all you want, but one thing is evident... you arent above ANYONE.

[worn marsh]

Where did I say what you quoted? Is this another one of your made up lies?

[lost hill]

which quote, because i have to paraphrase in order for you to be able to see through your own bullshit. its that thick

[worn marsh]

Anything you claimed I said

Paraphrase you mean where you get upset multiple people all laughed at your example so instead of asking yourself why…. you lie about the people pointing it out?

[tepid hinge]

The only issue here is your horrible play style. You in horrible position. You are literally in view of an archer and only like 20 feet. You literally have a target on you.

[worn marsh]

Don’t forget he has a special to reload and doesn’t

He also turned his back to the Archer

[lost hill]

LOLOLOL KIDD. NO YOU DIDNT

you deleted your comment, and then said where did you quote it

[worn marsh]

I didn’t delete anything bud

[lost hill]

LOLOL get out, youre fucking done

[tepid hinge]

You also got the archers attention that definitely was a bad thing to do.

[lost hill]

oh, so... existing. i gotcha, thank joker

[worn marsh]

Maybe you will work on your game and give us some better Archer gameplay so we can see how broken it is

[lost hill]

we can look at yours. you miss 2/3 your shots AND STILL are able to get 40+ kills

almost like... the class isnt hard to play..

[tepid hinge]

No by being aware of archers and adjusting play style so you dont get killed by archers.

[worn marsh]

The 61-1 gameplay?.

Can you upload your full game?

[lost hill]

i was aware of the archer.. thats VERY CLEAR in the clip

and effectively what this boils down to is..

youre telling me that because IM not dying, that my teammates arent getting shot and the problem doesnt exist anymore

[tepid hinge]

You were aware of the archer but that only part of adjusting to the archer is the other part like getting out of the view of the archer instead of getting shot and dying. What do you mean by the last sentence.

[lost hill]

see. you keep trying to compare youself to me... thats how i know that youre just an egotistical, narcissitic child

i did the math, you had an accuracy of ~30%, i cant remember the exact number..

thats NOT EVEN a full 1/3 arrows landing, but you were able to get the kills that you did.. because you were on the winning team and the only 4 melee players came in contact with you

3 of them you had teammates to help you with.. the 1 that you didnt, is where your 1 death came from

so if a full default footman with a halberd, is able to beat "the best archer" in melee, that tells me that youre not a good player. youre just a "good" archer

which in turn, shows that the class doesnt require you to be very skilled in order to play well. its a point and click adventure. even if you miss 2/3 of your shots, you can get a ton of value

[worn marsh]

I tell you what I have $50 you can’t get a 60-1 gameplay playing solo in 64 Man to in a week.

You claim the class is Easy and I am not good , prove it. Beat me and upload the full game.

Put up or shut up

[worn marsh]

You can be the witness to this

[lost hill]

some objectives, that works. most, it doesnt. there isnt exactly a ton of cover in an open field, that allows you to still contest objectives

and what i mean by the last sentence, is that even if the archer isnt shooting at me. if theyre alive. theyre MORE THAN LIKELY shooting at SOMEONE..

thats not dealing with the problem, thats just saying "its not my problem anymore" and passing the archer's damage onto my teammates

[lost hill]

have i once. ANYWHERE. claimed to be a good player?

oh wait. again. youre comparing yourself to me.

youre so fucking stuck on being better than me. that youre willing to show the fact that you dont know shit.

[worn marsh]

You claimed to be a professional for 10+ years

That I am bad

That I don’t know the class

That you know what you are talking about

Prove it. You have 6 days 23 hours 55 minutes remaining

[lost hill]

congrats keeper, youre better than me.

you can aim pixels better than i can in chiv 2.

can i have your autograph??

[lost hill]

did i claim to be professional??

dude, where the fuck are you getting these lies from, honestly?

[worn marsh]

No you have a week to prove it and when you fail tag me.

Post your best gameplay.

Then we can talk

Until then. Stay Free I’m headed to Diablo

[lost hill]

running away again??

you cant do this every time someone points out that youre litterally a fucking child.

youre making up lies. i even admitted it, sure. you can be better than me. i dont give a fuck

because as the end of the day. its all the same. the archer class needs changes in order to feel more fun to play against.

god damn the mods of this community are fucking lazy

how the FUCK have you not been banned after you 21 career timeouts

[tepid hinge]

Actually its not that hard to avoid arrow of course you will get hit by one or two but if you have good aware of where the archers on the battlefield you will have no issues. Your teammates getting hit by arrow isnt your problem its theirs for not being aware as well. TO might be a team battle but if your teammates not adjusting to the battle that their own fault.

[lost hill]

thats just circling the issue

i understand that i can play better around the archer. but that isnt solving anything, its not fixing the issue that is the state of archer

in competitve tf2, the sniper and medic are the two most important members of your team, because one is able to kill anyone as long as they have line of sight. the other keeps you alive

but the oppressive factor of the sniper, is that they force you to stay in cover and not to peek them in order to not risk instantly dying

archer isnt THAT extreme, but the same concept applies, yes you can play around cover/shields/human shields...

but unless you can get rid of the threat, its not so much youre playing against them. but youre hiding from the danger.

also, when facing a skilled opponent, you really cant afford to spread much of your attention off of them, it doesnt take long to end up as a corpse if you miss a counter/parry/block

the more skilled your opponent, the more value archer gets, because skilled players are difficult to kill in melee (active parry being the main reason) so having that source of unblockable damage that is able to just bypass any countermeasures the player could have attempted

until a threat is removed, it remains a threat, therefore the archer would need to die for that skilled player to 1vX all day and win

which is where a lot of the issues of archer comes in, is the SAFETY. how difficult it is to get to the archer, let alone killing them (yes archer is weaker in melee, but with counters, the stamina deficit is negated, proper defense means the health disadvantage is harder to punish

and in most situations, all the archer has to do is survive and their teammates will assist with peeling the melee player off of the archer,

there been numerous occasions where someone has been able to close the gap and get close to me, but all i have to do is stay alive. and my teammates are able to either kill them, or attack them and allow me to back up and pull my bow back out. and shoot the player who was attacking me

[ruby cipher]

Congrats you have been wasting your time discussing this over a week now.

[snow bear]

we're gamers. our entire lives are wasted

[shrewd hemlock]

i would give you a super reaction but i'm all out 😦

[thorn robin]

Fact of the matter is, the average player is terrible

Including myself

[worn marsh]

Yup but the good thing about Chiv is the skill floor is low enough where you can still make an impact even when you are new.

[tall hound]

Actually very true

[lilac jacinth]

Burn them all

[feral trellis]

I think that archers should be given a little more speed in movement. It looks very strange when a heavy knight with a two-handed sword approaches an archer and the archer has no way to retreat because of his speed. It turns out that the knight runs faster than the archer.

[shrewd hemlock]

for balance though this would be awful

Archer would constantly kite the knight

[fathom aurora]

That's just chase mechanic. And bows slow you acceleration I believe.

[snow bear]

while I'd appreciate a rework of Archer to include higher speed and/or stamina, Knights don't actually run faster than archers unless thet have already built up full sprint speed.

[lost hill]

chase mechanics make any class able to catch any class.

archer having higher movespeed would logically make sense, but thats map design and derserter zones are the main reasons archers are as safe as they are

[snow bear]

yeah it's a real problem when archers camp near their team's spawn zones. It's tough to think of solution because part of the appeal of Chiv II is the constant uh... "frontline" of chaos which is constantly maintained by the close group respawns

[snow bear]

it's definitely not going to happen, but perhaps telegraphing the reinforcement waves by having non-player controlled AI spawn a few seconds before the players themselves take control of them would enable players to know exactly when to leave the spawn zones

in other words, you'd see the player models running from a greater distance before they become controlable

as an archer hunter that might give you enough warning to fight an archer then leave safely

of course, it would only be useful in areas which lack choke points and allow easy flanking

but think of this... if all archers had better melee stats but worse bow stats and ammo, they would be less of a nuisance even if they could run away quicker because they'd be dealing less base dps

and many of them would be more likely to stand and fight rather than retreating

[fathom aurora]

That is just removing archers though, and forcing them into melee, which I don't think is needed to make them a less opressive class to fight.

And despite the claims, is not something I actually want

[snow bear]

they'd still be ranged though

but they'd be more like mordhau's version of archers

in mordhau, bows don't magically turn you into a leg day-skipping antichad who somehow moves slower, tires quicker, and dies quicke than a guy wearing chainmail and a greathelmr. They just reduce your ability to have armor and good melee weapons

[fathom aurora]

This isn't mordhau though, it's a class based game, and archers have room to be the ranged suppression and area denial without reducing that ranged capability, and ALSO not feel like total shit to play against.

[snow bear]

they also feel like shit to play as a melee class

because they are completely designed and balanced around having a powerful primary weapon

because of this, the game has no true light class.

[lost hill]

sadly, those both arent currently being met, only the ranged suppression

i also feel like making players run further before they can be controlled end up being a double edged sword, as it would also give archers MUCH easier targets

i think giving shields a better chance to passively block would do a good bit of at least giving players ways to actually negate that range threat, trading it off for reach with most weapons

perhaps we could explore options of designating subclasses to be the "counter archer" such as skirmisher and ambusher,

[thorn robin]

just dodge

[amber warren]

Nerfing archers further isn't going to fix shit but shakey egos.

[lost hill]

then dont nerf archer, just buff shields so their passive block is actually worth something

[amber warren]

Or actually use the shield properly.

[lost hill]

that is using the shield properly... the issue being, is that you cannot attack and consistently block arrows at the same time. if you hold block in order to block and arrow, not only are you draining your stamina, youre also risking getting kicked and taking a free hit. or just having your shield takes a ton of damage which leads to it breaking... and you taking a free hit

and if it breaks. you have no way to defend yourself at the archer at that point.

[vagrant eagle]

I thought shield buff would be nice but not anymore realizing its only heavy weapons really breaking that up faster, if you can solve it to not be extremely op vs small weapons thatll be nice.

[hushed dagger]

Maybe instead of changing numbers... there has to be more cover on the maps to approach more safely. But what really grinds my gears is when i try to flank wide, that i always have top worry about deserting

[vagrant eagle]

Nah this wont solve anything and just buff attackers which are usually already at an advantage in some forms

[hushed dagger]

Yeah, but they could at least change desertion zones for defenders. Plus desertion should not start immediately when losing an objective. Or for example like in Breach of Baudwyn(how ever it's written) randomly when the carts get pushed.

[lost hill]

shields break faster with most smaller weapons,

the shields have 200/300/400 hp depending on size, and take base weapon damage with no modifiers, bashes and kicks also do damage to shields, so a fast weapon with a decent base damage (knife overhead for example) can tear through shields quickly

if you just make the PASSIVE block actually work really well against arrows.. i feel that could be a very solid way to give shields a boost vs archers, but not changing the way they function in melee

[thorn robin]

Man archers really do be that controversial

[fathom aurora]

Having a class that gets to do free damage in a heavily skill based game be like that.

[thorn robin]

"skill"

[fathom aurora]

huh

[worn marsh]

“Free”

[sharp root]

It’s not like you have to aim or anything

[worn marsh]

• It’s auto aim on controller

• PS+ Archers are free kills

I can’t remember what button I’m supposed to push here

[fathom aurora]

Sorry I forgot you can block arrows with any weapon, like melee

[worn marsh]

Fun fact : you can!

Fun fact: it’s hard!

https://chivalry2.com/2022/03/24/advanced-combat-twitch-stream-recap/#:~:text=Did you know that you,but it can be done!

[pliant trail]

I don't mind the idea of passive-blocking being fixed I just dont want people to pull a mordhau and make the solution to archer "Hold right click to counter archer if you have eyes in your skull and can see the white line crawling towards you" also even if you don't block it just holding right click reduces the damage so you know theres that too

[worn marsh]

If you can hold block to negate all archer damage then it needs to drain stamina based on draw strength you blocked.

Full Draw = Same as Heavy
Partial = same as Light

If not then you would need to drastically increase Ammo count or delete the class.

[pliant trail]

No I'm literally saying I DONT want taht cuz it would make archer actually useless unless they literally abandon aim for spam-fire to drain stam

[sharp root]

Ahh but they want it to be useless

[fathom aurora]

Ah yes, the counter that you can't reliably land haven't heard that one before

[sharp root]

You can reliably land it

[pliant trail]

I like never said that?

[worn marsh]

But it allows all Melee to negate 100% of archer damage correct?

[fathom aurora]

Uh huh

[sharp root]

If it hits you

Obviously you mistimed it

[fathom aurora]

Sure bud

[sharp root]

Show me otherwise

[worn marsh]

Does it block 100% of damage or not?

[fathom aurora]

Show me you reliably hitting counter arrows

[worn marsh]

Not answering

[sharp root]

What do you mean by reliably here as I think we got two different definitions of the word

[worn marsh]

I’m willing to bet he hasn’t practiced it but wants another mechanic to do what that does he also won’t use

[fathom aurora]

As in, you can read the arrow releasing and hitting the counter on that reaction, like you can any other melee attack

[sharp root]

Archers I’m charging down I can do it more often than not

Cos they generally panic

And shoot at the same time as every other archer

[fathom aurora]

So not the attack, it's a guess

a hope

a dream

[worn marsh]

So they can delay their attacks like Melee?

[sharp root]

The only guess part is guessing they’re not going to hold their bow

This is at close range

At longer range it’s not a guess at all

[fathom aurora]

honestly what I want is for the archer to interact with the combat system instead of bypass it. So without a major rework, archer being less frustrating just wont happen

[sharp root]

Which means blockable arrows just by right clicking?

Like mordhau

Where they’re useless

[worn marsh]

They interact in multiple ways

1. Blocked by shield
2. Blocked by Deflect
3. Reduced damage by 33% by holding block

[fathom aurora]

like stronger overall range if the attack isn't a free hit

[sharp root]

The hell does that mean?

[fathom aurora]

same as melee. Melee has higher damage output but they aren't guarunteed for their hit to land

[sharp root]

Put forward an actual change

[worn marsh]

No class is “guaranteed damage”

[fathom aurora]

but, with range mechanics

[fathom aurora]

I'm mulling it over tbh, again, it'd be a full rework

[sharp root]

There’s not many things you can even do for better or worse

There’s not many variables at play to change

[pliant trail]

So your solution to them "not interacting with combat" is to make them interact less as now they'd effectively be worthless to supporting teamfights? Also idk if you know but there isn't a guarantee every arrow will hit cuz you know things happen at a distance especially in teamfights I've literally had my teammates jump infront of my travelling arrows before and eat shit or even the person to see my arrow coming and press the dodge key. You're acting like arrows are guaranteed hits that always land no matter where you are but that's just silly.

[sharp root]

Most arrows miss

Not even keeper has 100% accuracy

[fathom aurora]

skill issue

[worn marsh]

Nope you have runs of 15 arrows no reg often , they just go straight through.

Biggest buff Archers will ever get is fixing hit detection in the game, then Archers may actually be oppressive.

[fathom aurora]

My wish is for archer to remain a strong ranged support class but to not be frustrating to play against unless you gimp your own weapon selection

[worn marsh]

Arrows aren’t even guaranteed to hit on AFK people currently

[pliant trail]

I wouldn't say most miss sure you can lead shots and maximize your chances but you also can't think for your team nor for the enemy.

Also that's the point if you refuse to a counterplay you can't really say that it isn't fair you're being poked. It'd be like me whining that I have 90hp and 50 stam and can't melee down 5 knights unless I'm a counter-god. Heck it's not even like you have no options you can still reduce damage by 33% for free, or counter my arrows out of the air, use throwing weapons to make it harder for me to aim, tell your local engineers to erect walls or even just make yourself a hard target.

If I'm frustrating somebody I'm doing my job right, you don't get mad when an ambusher backstabs you, or you get a dane-axe lobbed at you from behind, why do you get mad when I do my job? I know counters aren't reliable for arrows but it's certainly more room for error than my tiny ass HP pool allows for

That said I do think passive blocking does need to be sorted cuz that's just a bug that the shield doesn't register like that

[fathom aurora]

you don't get mad when an ambusher backstabs you, or you get a dane-axe lobbed at you from behind
Because if I see those I can fight them, I have tools to negate that damage and reward me for being on the ball. If I see the archer... well shit I guess I can run away, or wish I limited myself to a shield class, or hide in a corner, because there's no objective out there where I can do the objective and has decent cover against archers

[pliant trail]

That I agree on sightlines are neat but there does need to be more cover in em for bobbing and weaving into, but I don't think nerfing a class should be done ona map design error

[fathom aurora]

or use my jedi mind powers to predict when to put 400ms of arrow blocking in front of me

[pliant trail]

Also you don't have to run, many of the map objkectives literally have flank routes

[fathom aurora]

Again, I don't want to nerf archers, I want them to interact with the combat system better. If that means nerfing some areas but BUFFING others, then so be it

[pliant trail]

Yeah but the nerfs that people are sugegsting won't make them interact if anything it will do the exact opposite and just encourage spamming

[fathom aurora]

and most people just cry "nerf" when something annoys them. If archers were less awful to "fight" there'd be less calls for flat nerfs

not zero ofc. you can't please everyone. But most, I think

[pliant trail]

Honestly I think the better solution would be to add more cover and maybe ahve some areas in maps where there are small enclosed spaces like the later parts of Thayic

Cuz as an archer I could barely push into some areas without catching a messer or 5

Essentially areas that give melees a chance to really get along while archers are on backfoot and vice-versa

Cuz most maps rn are a bit open

That and maybe give more counter weapons to (as in against) archer like maybe giving skirmishers and vanguards new weapons to bully archers a bit more

Idk I'm spitballing

[lofty vapor]

Having javelins oneshot archers is a great idea

More dead archers and more achers fighting archers and less archers ruining the fun for melee players

[pliant trail]

Idk what archers you've had on your team but I don't think I ruin the fun by helping my meleebros rack up kills and countersniping other archers

[fathom aurora]

I would like to see longbow headshots and warbow body shots kill overhealed archers. For now

quick change, would be nice

even for other archers I think

[pliant trail]

I wouldn't actually mind that change

Though I would also like to see Jav kill archer cuz it's sad I can 1 tap them but they cant do the same either that or give skirmisher Melee class health and stamina

[lofty vapor]

your teamates prolly are having a blast but not the enemy team.

respectfully

[lost hill]

ya know its sad when they made a moderator out of someone who doesnt understand counterplay and why there isnt any when it comes to archer

there is no viable counterplay, that does not come with HEAVY downsides

[pliant trail]

True but it wouldn't have made a difference whether it was me prodding them as MAA or me bowing them to the enemy team not having a blast I mean

[sharp root]

Or more correctly there are things you have to do that you don't want to do.

[fathom aurora]

There's not play the objective, not play most of the weapons, and be a jedi

[sharp root]

Most of the damage you take isn't people outskilling you anyway

It's people coming up behind you

Or you getting ganked

[worn marsh]

“I want a counter, but not that one”

[sharp root]

Or a big rock hitting you

Or something

What's a few arrows on top of that?

[fathom aurora]

That's a skill issue. can't outskill just getting hit. Rocks and stuff aren't class specific and limited locations on the map

[worn marsh]

Technically archers are in limited areas on the map due to “out of bounds”

[fathom aurora]

Having weapon that just sits outside of the combat system is an issue, it's unsatisfying to play against

[sharp root]

Oh so winning against 7 people is a skill issue?

[fathom aurora]

yeah

[sharp root]

Not taking damage from someone who jumped down from above is a skill issue?

But taking damage from an arrow somehow isn't

[fathom aurora]

one of position,where melee has a limited area of attack, archer's area of attack is line of site

If I retreat into my team I'm now safe from being ganked, but I cannot attack as a result. The archer is both safe and can attack

[lost hill]

please elaborate, without needing to be much more skilled than your opponent, how do you deal with archers?

[sharp root]

Well how do you deal with all the other crap I listed

Team objective is one big mess

You can't deal with everything in the ways you want to

[lost hill]

but you can deal with MOST things in at least 1 way

[sharp root]

If you want fairness play duels

Yeah take a shield

And the archer will aim for the guy next to you

Rather than you

[fathom aurora]

just stop using most of the classes

[sharp root]

one of them

You vanguard scum

[lost hill]

so. who kills the archer?

[fathom aurora]

2/9 have shields

[sharp root]

Someone else kills the archer

Or maybe even you if the opportunity arises

[lost hill]

how do they do it?

[sharp root]

Hitting him with a sword probably

Death by metal object

Or do all archers end all their games with zero deaths?

[fathom aurora]

so they move out the way, into their own team, and continue shooting oyu with arrows while you 1v5 a spawn wave

[sharp root]

Well why are you running into their spawn wave?

[fathom aurora]

that's where the archers live

[lost hill]

most archers have less than 10 deaths per game.. and positive k/d.. with a large portion of takedowns.

[sharp root]

Why are you going to where the archers live?

Sounds like a bad idea

[lost hill]

well i mean, if you dont do anything to stop them firing arrows. theyre going to continue to fire arrows

[fathom aurora]

so then just don't deal with archers is how oyu deal with archers. top IQ moves

[lost hill]

giving the archer 0 deaths at the end of the round..

[sharp root]

You kill the archers when they make a mistake

Just like how you kill anyone else

[fathom aurora]

what mistake?

[sharp root]

Of not behind behind a spawn wave

[fathom aurora]

then can do all the want while standing in their own spawn waves

[lost hill]

thats funny, because the archer doesnt have to wait for you to make a mistake in order to kill you...

[sharp root]

Yet you keep making the mistake of rushing them from a distance

[fathom aurora]

Nope, just fighting on the objective

getting plugged by arrows

[sharp root]

Well then why are you bringing up this example of running way into their back lines if you're not doing it?

Is that just all theoretical?

[lost hill]

if someone doesnt deal with the archer... the archer gets to fire arrows for free

meaning, everyone on objective, gets turn into a porcupine

[fathom aurora]

worse than keeper i swear to christ

[sharp root]

And that's fine

[lost hill]

get out

get the fuck out. how the hell are you a mod

[fathom aurora]

when the mods are trolls

[sharp root]

It is not a requirement to dislike archers to be a mod

[lost hill]

having a brain isnt either it seems

[twilit kraken]

they're gonna run out of arrows eventually

[lapis cipher]

I don't think he's even here as a moderator. I think, right now, he's just a guy who's talking to you.

[sharp root]

That I am

[lost hill]

bro, im going to blow your mind with this

theres these things ... called "supply boxes"

[fathom aurora]

and he's being an asshole about it

[sharp root]

I have not once used the fact I'm a mod to try and further the discussion

[twilit kraken]

yooooo no way

[lost hill]

you havnt used logic either

youre saying "ignore the archer and take a shield so he shoots someone else" as your debate point of why archers dont need changes

[fathom aurora]

Now, to be fair, lemon spends the entire game hiding in a corner

so I guess archers aren't an issue when you aren't playing the game

[sharp root]

I don't know where this corner thing sprang from

[fathom aurora]

you talking about how you "counter" archers. By hiding away from the objective

I extrapolated on the corner

[sharp root]

I never said don't go away from the objective either

[fathom aurora]

doesn't have to be a corner. could be a hole

[lost hill]

he's playing field engineer in the corner too apparently.

[fathom aurora]

a ditch

An entire room, even

just not one near the objective

[lost hill]

someone correct me, but i dont think there is a single objective that has enough cover to be able to fight while staying on the objective

[sharp root]

The best cover is other people

Archers can't shoot through people to hit you

[lost hill]

so what happens when they die?

[fathom aurora]

maybe darkforest final area

[lost hill]

becuase THEY cant block the arrows either

[sharp root]

They get replaced

[lost hill]

talking about they castle?

[twilit kraken]

'but, but what happens when they die!!!'

[lost hill]

so, youre not in melee range of the enemy frontline, due to using a teammate as a shield. gotcha

[sharp root]

Plus as far as I'm concerend the both of you just straight up want archers removed

You don't want to get shot

at all

[fathom aurora]

The first pass of my thoughts

adding animations to arrow release
making the arrows blockable by parry
possibly with a narrower parrybox (Not sure how to address timing, but it should be possible to alter it imo)
arrows having at least normal stam damage
not allowing arrows to give riposte
having points awarded for an archer putting stam pressure on a player
longbow headshot and warbow bodyshot doing 100 damage to archers
upping longbow damage overall

[lost hill]

dude, i main archer

i dont want it removed, i want it changed so its actually fun to play as, and against.

[twilit kraken]

it's very fun to play as

[fathom aurora]

still working on it though

[sharp root]

So provide something of use or stop whining

[lost hill]

scroll up

all the way to the top, people have been spitballing ideas this entire thread

[sharp root]

If you're so confident I'm sure you can remember something somebody has said

[sharp root]

You've just turned archers into Mordhau archers

Where archers can't do jack shit to anybody with a pair of eyes and all archers are off in a corner playing their own game shooting each other and no one else

[lost hill]

well theres a huge list of them. but i'll give a few of the ones i remember

make all archer weapons 1 shot other archers

make archers take extra damage from thrown

map redesign in order to give cover and flank routes

make shields actually worth taking

[sharp root]

Ditto for you really

[fathom aurora]

my aim is to make archers interact with the combat while remaining a ranged class

[twilit kraken]

most archers I see are useless. I'm not sure what servers you lot are in where archers are going positive kd and less than 10 deaths...

[lost hill]

do people in TO complain about skirmisher?

i havnt seen very many... its almost like players like being able to block what is able to threaten them at range

[sharp root]

Yes that sentance sounds nice but isn't really practical

[fathom aurora]

it can better than "you take damage now"

[lost hill]

when you learn what names to look for. its actually pretty common to see

of course new players arent going to do this, because they dont understand much about the game in the slightest, archery/maps/melee/anything

[fathom aurora]

me, for one

[lost hill]

the counterplay to archer, use a full default armor set

you dont stick out very much making you less eye catching

thats it.

[worn marsh]

It’s a tired talking point

[twilit kraken]

I understand the archer hate from a melee perspective, it's just people want to nerf the class into the ground

[lost hill]

thats the issue, with the current interaction. its not going to feel fun to play against.

it needs to change mechanically

[fathom aurora]

Nope, I wanna make it more satisfying to play against

[worn marsh]

I can name 0 archers from the past 100 games I have been that have made an impact besides me.

These 2 just want to ditch having awareness and make Archers melee essentially

[lost hill]

i see that keeper is just downplaying other's viewpoints becuase he enjoys abusing the fact there isnt counterplay

[twilit kraken]

Well it's not going to feel fun playing against a good archer just like it ain't gonna feel fun playing against a sweaty melee main

by good archers I mean not many

[fathom aurora]

I played a pair last week that were on voice comms. It was awful trying to approach them. but kinda funny watching one spot me then the other also turn 😄

[worn marsh]

There isn’t counterplay to any class

[lost hill]

ah, but my dearest child... there is

[worn marsh]

Just ways to make them less effective

[lost hill]

counters, parries. feints and jabs/kicks!

[worn marsh]

No there isn’t not what is your goal post you always go to “Lethal options”

[lost hill]

a kick is lethal.

[worn marsh]

You can do all that to archer along with negate all their damage 2 additional ways!

[lost hill]

you cant kick and archer if theyre 30m away..

you cant feint an archer to get them to open themselves up for attack...

[worn marsh]

Moving goal post lol

[twilit kraken]

get a bow and shoot them

[fathom aurora]

you can give up playing most of the games weapons, that is an option

[lost hill]

youre right. im moving them.. back to where the archers stand and youre still not getting close to a goal.

[worn marsh]

He just wants Archers deleted and he can’t form a viable alternative because his idea is he wants a bland 1 class counters all approach

[lost hill]

simple, just get a bow of your own. thats great counterplay to a toxic mechanic

right?.... RIGHT??/

[worn marsh]

For an archer main this problem is easy , almost like you aren’t one?

[twilit kraken]

yes? archers counter archers?

[fathom aurora]

yes, because archer live outside the combat system

[lost hill]

and archers counter vanguards, and any class without a shield...

[worn marsh]

I mean you don’t take an Archer to counter a Knight in Melee right?

[lost hill]

so.. uh... 1 class countering itself, when that 1 class ALSO counters other classes

[sharp root]

No class counters a class

[worn marsh]

No they don’t lol all those class can kill archers just as easy

[lost hill]

vangaurd is countered by archer. low hp, and no shield

[worn marsh]

Drop the whole “counter” argument because it has no merit

[worn marsh]

That isn’t a counter lol

[sharp root]

It's not a counter

[worn marsh]

…. Do you know what a counter is?

[fathom aurora]

every class can fight another class, except archers

[sharp root]

By that logic ambusher counters archers

[lost hill]

oh, im sorry. youre right. they only have all the tools they need to be able to beat them with ease

not a counter. just a counter.

[worn marsh]

I mean 10 years of competitive experience I would expect more

[lost hill]

by design, it would

by map design. it doesnt.

[worn marsh]

No class is lacking tools to kill another class

[lost hill]

but.. they are dippy

[worn marsh]

No they aren’t lol

[twilit kraken]

archers are balanced

[sharp root]

If you really want to make it your goal to stop an archer getting "free" hits you can

[lost hill]

how long is your spear? 60m?

[lost hill]

if thats how you want to word it.. sure

the goal is to make it not cancer to play against.

[worn marsh]

You are moving the goal post again

There isn’t a single class in this game that is incapable of killing another 1

[fathom aurora]

If you look at the scoreboard I think they are. My issue with them is that it sucks to play against, because you have no options to fight them with most weapons

[lost hill]

no. you said all classes have the tools to kill all classes

melee dont have the tools they need in order to reach an archer in the back of their spawn.

[worn marsh]

They do have the tools, you act like archers only exist at the out of bounds line.

From your gameplay alone we have seen they rush the opposing teams spawn and feed.

You proved your own argument wrong

[lost hill]

and a lot of that is due to only 1 subclass having a healing special

trumpet is a HUGE boost to points, pushing players that dont have them down the leaderboard

[worn marsh]

You even fought 2 people in Melee that had chances to kill you

Your own talking points fail in your own gameplay bud stop

[lost hill]

thats the thing though, if an archer chooses.. they can exist outside of the deserter range for the other team. making it ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the enemy team to get in melee range (without having to run away in order to not die)

[worn marsh]

So it isn’t black and white like you are portraying and the class can be played differently?

[lost hill]

did those 2 melee kill me?

nope, welp, looks like im a better archer than you

[worn marsh]

You went 2-1 I went 60-1

I also have full gameplay uploaded to address any claim I make.

I do enjoy that just using your own gameplay all of your talking points fail

[lost hill]

hmm. what made you changed your mind about that. because before.. you dont me "youre just playing archer wrong"

yeah. i didnt forget that

keeper contradiction counter:... 100000? i lost count.

[worn marsh]

You did play the class wrong and I stand by that, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do that

[lost hill]

so in your 60-1 gameplay.... you had 4 melee get in range of you

3 of them were killed with the assistance of your team

1 of them killed you

thank you for giving me the proof i need

[twilit kraken]

is the gameplay on YT? I'd like to see

[worn marsh]

That melee had a chance to kill me? Thanks for helping me again

[worn marsh]

Yup one sec

[lost hill]

make sure to laugh when he get FUCKING ROLLED by the default footman with the halberd

[twilit kraken]

I'll be looking for tips 😁

[lost hill]

4 of them were able to get in melee range... 3 of them your team helped/killed

you lost the only 1v1 you were in

[worn marsh]

https://youtube.com/@keeper5849

[lost hill]

this should show, that getting close to an archer, is a challenge enough, let alone actually beating one (assuming theyre not keeper, that kid is EZ mode in melee)

[worn marsh]

I rarely update though

Random you are just an angry person who doesn’t understand how to play his class effectively.

Instead of learning how to deal with archers rather through Sniping or making yourself a hard target you are trying to nerf them.

If you spent the same amount of time in game working on your gameplay instead of here trying to nerf the class in every single archer thread you could be great at the class you main

[twilit kraken]

he mains archer yet he is advocating so badly against them...?

[lost hill]

youre just an egotistical child that doesnt understand that youre playing an overtuned class that doesnt have healthy counterplay

if you spent as much time in game as you do here lying

you wouldnt get rolled by default footmen.

[fathom aurora]

You're also mistaking "changing to be less cancerous" for "nerfing"

[lost hill]

yes. i am. thats what most of the players who originally started this thread are... archer mains

but we understand that the class isnt fun to play AGAINST

[worn marsh]

Whatever helps you cope man, post some full gameplay so we can see your skill.

[lost hill]

LOL kid. go outside, touch grass.

notice that no one else vouches that youre a good player?

[worn marsh]

I’m back now what

[fathom aurora]

also like 50% is just probably anti-keeper

[worn marsh]

There isn’t a top TO player that thinks I’m a bad archer lmao

Cocky 100% but bad 0%

[lost hill]

what clan are you in?

[twilit kraken]

I mean, I'm watching his gameplay he's a good archer

[brazen olive]

He mains skirmisher, that's kind of not even comparable to other archers in terms of function

[lost hill]

no, he's just not threatened, any archer is going to look like a good archer if no one is attacking them...

[worn marsh]

Go ask any top TO player or my gameplay if you think I’m bad.

Hell go ask Ziggy I have out scored him anytime he wasn’t teaming up to kill me

[lost hill]

i also dont have people complaining about skirmisher. seems like what im playing isnt as cancerous

[brazen olive]

It's just disingenuous to say you main archer when you main skirmisher, most people will make the distinction

[worn marsh]

He was proud he had 3/4 of my score in games we were both archers lol

[lost hill]

so a player at the tier of ziggy couldnt outscore you

yet you lose in 1v1 melees....

yeah that confirms archer is too easy

[lost hill]

i main skirmisher, but holding an archer slot, i often swap off it in order to counter-archer

[twilit kraken]

going 60-1 is a good achievement

[worn marsh]

Every loses in melee sometimes even Top players bud. It happens sorry I died.

I have plenty of games I went 60 -70 with 0 deaths.

[lost hill]

check how hard his team was winning.. he's using warbow which is MUCH easier to get the last hit on players with

play more attention to takedown, since thats how many kills youve contributed to

[worn marsh]

I aim for as close to a 1-1 ratio with takendowns as I can get.

But the higher you get the better since you are helping your team with chip

[lost hill]

BECAUSE
ARCHER
IS
A
VERY
SAFE
CLASS
YOU
HAVE
0
DEATHS!

i see a lot of extremely skilled melee players that end up with a good handful of deaths... because they have to take risks in order to do their damage

[worn marsh]

I have a bunch of melee perfect lols

With Highlander, Greatsword and 2 hand Maul

[lost hill]

if youre such a good melee player too

why arent you in a clan?

and how did you manage to get stam'd out by a knight, 1v1d by a footman. and had to get bailed out by your teammates on 2 occasions?

sorry, 3 occasions. i forgot the knight got peeled off you

[brazen olive]

Clans are cringe ngl

[lost hill]

but theyre effectively the competitive scene for the game

if he was truely as skilled as says he is. he would be playing against other good players... and not pub stomping and bragging about his scores...

i mean, pubstomping and bragging about your scores thats "cringe ngl"

[worn marsh]

Schedule mostly For clan

I also just solo que and talk to the regulars there.

Like I said man, for the most part I melee to delay to play effectively.

The game needs a lot of changed for ranked to be serious.

You can look way back to the first few months, I have been asking for ranked TO since then.

[twilit kraken]

does NA not have 'chad' servers with lots of high levels?

[lost hill]

duel servers

[twilit kraken]

TO ones I mean.

[worn marsh]

Not really. East and West have the best duelers and TO on the central is the least stacking

East TO is full of racist trolls/massive stacks

West TO is full of Archer Teamkillers / less stacking

[twilit kraken]

shame. high level TO is really fun

[worn marsh]

Yup, I always like it when the games are even. I even won against the top knight with my PS+ army on defense a few weeks ago.

[lost hill]

thats why you posted a game where your team was what... over 150 kills over the other team?

because you like having balanced teams...?

[worn marsh]

Why are you still barking at me, stop begging for attention

[lost hill]

i see your also still claiming to that fame..

when he has a clip of you refusing to fight him and actively ran away from him

[lost hill]

mad that i called out your lie?

[worn marsh]

Not every game can be even bud

I played my class and won.

I’m sorry you are upset but you have to calm down.

[twilit kraken]

seems like you can't win...

team not good enough... your fault apparently

[worn marsh]

Nah he is a newer player that is wildly upset when people don’t agree with him.

I do hope I see him in game sometime.

[twilit kraken]

there are more pressing issues with this game like the stuttering rather than 'waa waa archer cancer'

[fathom aurora]

Yes, the game can have more than one issue

that's why there's threads, to sort them all

[lost hill]

but you see something... people have been pointing out the issues with archer.. SINCE BETA..

the stuttering is a newer issue

[twilit kraken]

and its been nerfed accordingly, but this is just excessive

[lost hill]

no it hasnt. otherwise there wouldnt be this much hate towards it still

it has been nerfed, but its no in a state that is fun to play against.

[worn marsh]

They actually introduced a whole new way of negating archer damage in deflecting/parry arrows. But it’s not easy and requires some work/muscle memory so they want more

[lost hill]

the issues with archer, isnt the damage.

its the mechanics of it. meaning it needs a REWORK

[fathom aurora]

it needs a significant change rather than lower damage

[worn marsh]

Also they added bracing which reduced archer damage 33% for just holding block!

[lost hill]

an yes. in a 1v1, when you can predict the arrow, that mechainc works to block a single arrow

when you fighting. youre not going to do that intentionally

[worn marsh]

Nobody duels with archers lol

[fathom aurora]

Even then, good luck predicting the insta releasing, instant hitting projectile

[twilit kraken]

you can predict it

[worn marsh]

Instant hitting lmao?

[lost hill]

exactly, so therefore. the "just counter the arrow" arguement is null

[fathom aurora]

you can't

[twilit kraken]

yes you can

[lost hill]

no you cant. not consistently

[worn marsh]

You didn’t think that though

How much practice have you done on it?

[fathom aurora]

an archer just has to hold it for half a second longer and it hits you

[worn marsh]

My favorite question fyi

[lost hill]

so youre telling me that you'll eat 10 hits from the person youre fighting....

to block that 1 arrow?

[worn marsh]

So it isn’t a 1v1 now? You need to stay on your talking points pup

Why wouldn’t you just rotate his teammate between you 2?

[lost hill]

if you could read and comprehend what youre reading... you would know that it was never a 1v1 to begin with

countering and arrow. only works in a 1v1.

[brazen olive]

Time to go get some wine and popcorn while I read this

[lost hill]

i recommend a nice dark red sweet wine, really nice for a relaxing drink

[fathom aurora]

It's always when I gotta go to bed

[brazen olive]

Agreed! My favorite type actually!

[worn marsh]

So archers have trails right?

Just rotate his teammate to eat his arrow since friendly hitboxes overrides enemy ones

Wait that is a an answer not a nerf

[fathom aurora]

I dispute that tbh

[pliant trail]

I recommend black cherry brandy, I got some the other day, it's pretty good

[brazen olive]

Ugh that sounds good too

[lost hill]

we have a brewery in our delivery area that makes a wonderful red wine called "black and bruised" it dies your tongue but damn its worth it

[worn marsh]

I’m about 1/2 way through my Pappy van winkle 😦 so good

[lost hill]

which aspect

[brazen olive]

At least we can be united in our alcoholism... Carry on now 🥰

[fathom aurora]

Beung able to read arrow release

You can't read early release, you can't read "slightly hold it". it just hits you

[lost hill]

yeah no. that only works on basic archers. youre not going to be able to react to it

so you have to be able to predict when an archer is going to loose the arrow. which... im sorry, but unless youre a mind reader. isnt going to be consistent

[worn marsh]

Arrow releases should be as confusing to read as people doing 2, 3 or 4 (RIP) feints.

[lost hill]

no. i was refering to his inability to read the english language... not arrow release timing. slight misunderstanding

[worn marsh]

You don’t deserve a QuickTime event saying “DO IT NOW BRO”

[brazen olive]

Lmaooo

[lost hill]

it... already is..

heres the difference, your opponent can feint to match you in order to get the counter

you cant feint to match the archer's release

thank you for proving the "archer needs a change" point stronger

[worn marsh]

That doesn’t prove anything lol, if you are standing in a field waiting on an arrow to counter you are playing horrible anyways.

[fathom aurora]

Triple feints you gotta read, but it is readable

[worn marsh]

You really need to work on how you try to flip stuff lol

[lost hill]

if youre trying to approach the archer, youre going to need to counter at least 1 arrow, or eat it. in order to close the gap

assuming the archer has eyes.

[worn marsh]

Or block it with a shield right?

So 3 options

[twilit kraken]

do you just run in a straight line or something?

[lost hill]

you really need to work on your "dont prove the opponent's point FOR them" skills

[worn marsh]

You just said you have 3 options and flanking wasn’t one of them

How is that proving any point you made lmao

[lost hill]

if time is of the essence, and you have to time the gap-close in between spawn waves... do you have enough time to dip and dodge in order to not get shot?

you got 2 choices, waste time. or counter/eat the arrow.

also, youre assuming the archer cant hit a moving target.

[worn marsh]

Also the Arrow will count/register

[lost hill]

melee has the same issue, thats just an overall issue

[pliant trail]

I mean you can see when an archer pulls their string so it IS actually readable the only thing is you can't tell when exactly they will loose

Tbf the whole point is that it should be difficult though. Just because it's possible doesn't mean you're supposed to never ever miss countering arrows. That being said as I said before I think the ways to make archer less unfun is to just maybe put more cover in maps and maybe have more enclosed spaces rather than massive open areas to mix up the flow of combat and give melees some ways shine.

That and maybe giving more flank toutes and giving maybe ambusher and skirm more anti-archer choices at the very least jav should 1 shot archers to incentivize skirmishers to slam archers into the wall

[worn marsh]

Melee doesn’t wait 5 second to aim a shot

Thanks for proving my points lol

[fathom aurora]

the only thing is you can't tell when exactly they will loose
What conversation are you reading?

[lost hill]

most players agree that better map design would really help with both helping ambusher (since its rare to see an ambusher in 64man) and give better counterplay to archers

[lost hill]

no he's saying "you can tell when theyre able to shoot, but you dont know WHEN theyll shoot"

the problem is... the WHEN is much more important to know

[fathom aurora]

And thus my point still stands

[pliant trail]

True but it also means you know that you can waste their stamina by making them wait or throwing shit at them to try and make them panic

[lost hill]

melee also doesnt take damage for missing a shot

thank you for proving my point

[lost hill]

thats IF its a bow.. crossbow dont care

[twilit kraken]

why should basically hitting arrows out of the air be easy?

[pliant trail]

true but with crossbow if they missed you're inside them anyways if they dont immediately run away

[lost hill]

why should armor not reduce the damage an arrow does?

[vagrant eagle]

Jesus this forum is nutty

[pliant trail]

It does literally hold right click and you get 33% reduction

[lost hill]

but crossbowman get axe... so.. if theyre actually good

they'll INVITE you to close that gap

[pliant trail]

ANd they have 50 stamina so just outlast them

[lost hill]

thats still a sizable chunk of damage.

[lost hill]

counter take 0 stamina

and an archer just needs to survive long enough for their teammates to help them.

[fathom aurora]

Why should deflecting a maul with a knife be possible? Because if it wasn't the maul would be ass to play against

[vagrant eagle]

Arrows hit in the air by blocking will be fine ngl as long as the bow is barely drawn so the archer isnt 1 ticking it

[lost hill]

archer in 20v20 feels a lot better, but thats because the maps actually ahve ROOM to get to the archer

in 32v32, there is an enemy just about everywhere you go

[pliant trail]

Saying they need to survive "Long enough for their teammates to help them" is literally penalizing them for not being stupid and trying to benefit from their teammates in a team game also yeah it's a chunk of damage but it's something but my point was you can get a reduction to damage flat out without a shield that can allow you to take a whole extra arrow menawhile unless I'ma counter god, if you close that gap I'm likely going to die unless I rely on my team

I have won some melees against people who've closed the gap and ironically have more kills with my Shortsword than both my bows but thats because I play archer hyper-aggressively to help my team and figured out that most people have a habit of spamming slash or repeating the same moves when they dont so I can counter pretty decent if I dodge away a couple times and watch what they do

[vagrant eagle]

What if

You decrease damage of an archer after a certain range?

But increase it closer

[fathom aurora]

Doesn't change it whole lot, unless it's extreme but then you're taking away the range aspect of the range class

[pliant trail]

Tbh I've seen people suggest that and that seems like the least oppressive change compared to massively gimping archer's already tiny stam pool or making arrows blockable by the basic right click for all weps which would just make this Mordhau and boy howdy did I not like that archery was basically worthless in that unless you were firing from behind or a different zip-code

[vagrant eagle]

That depends

It would still be far but closer, abd you can still range as far but ur a lil weaker

[worn marsh]

Because you would have 3 different drop off ranges now

Longbow / Crossbow / Wabow would all need new damage adjustments on top off Bracing .

So you could effectively reduce a direct hit by 50% by simply holding block. (33% Bracing - 17% drop off).

[vagrant eagle]

You can be closer and get that bonus damage

[worn marsh]

That would only apply to longbow , adding increased damage for Crossbow / Warbow is asking to feed

[fathom aurora]

It would encourage the closer range archer, which is more risk which is good. But still also sucks because they just hide behind the front line rather than the spawn wave.

[worn marsh]

There is no point in playing archer if you want to play close to do more damage. You would play skirmisher/longbow*

[vagrant eagle]

The point is to get an archer more close either way. Not all the way at their spawn

[worn marsh]

Give them more ammo so they don’t have to

[vagrant eagle]

That wont solve them from doing that at all

They'll just be buffed with more ammo

[worn marsh]

The Warbow going from 20 to 12 was the biggest change in my gameplay.

I went from being able to play Midrange with Warbow to being forced to go back

[pliant trail]

Honestly as I said map changes would be best, it would also be a silent buff to Ambusher and Skirmisher and their kinda flanky playstyles

[vagrant eagle]

Map changes how lol?

[pliant trail]

More cover, more flank-routes etc

[worn marsh]

Maps are the only thing that will change anything. Protected spawns being the biggest change.

[pliant trail]

Also I wanted to say I've seen alot of people talking about archers sitting in spawn. I've like literally never seen it so could somebody explain what they mean?

[worn marsh]

It’s just something they say to justify 1 of their 20 deaths

[vagrant eagle]

People that arent anywhere near the obj and range very far from the frontline

Close to their spawn

[worn marsh]

It’s mostly people over extending and forcing 1vX that push the claim

[vagrant eagle]

Makes ot impossible usually for a main flanker to even kill them

[vagrant eagle]

This isnt a care of ur kills or deaths its that theres really no counter at all even as a melee player trying to flank

Ur far and the team will respawn to aid you

[worn marsh]

I deal with flankers every game, they always make it to me.

Thats why this talking point is hard for me to follow

[vagrant eagle]

Its being a good archer but at the same time not counterable unless the other team has a archer too

[vagrant eagle]

And they fail 99% of the time

[worn marsh]

What is an acceptable % that wouldn’t make flankers upset?

[vagrant eagle]

Because ur too far and ur team respawns close to keep countering them

[pliant trail]

I mean they're kinda gimping their output doing that you'll get alot more consistency being at least close enough that you can be near the OBJ I'm usually only about like 20 meters out from Objective most times. Why would you be in the enemy spawn anyway, but other than that maybe just make the desertion zone a bit bigger to maybe push them atleast out of spawn bounds? Honestly penalizing an archer for doing long-range is silly

[lost hill]

yall do realize that there is already damage falloff in game... .right?

its almost like that doesnt fix the issue

number changes alone wont fix the issue

we need A REWORK

[vagrant eagle]

Everything is penalized, long ranging has no penalize at all and the reason spawn archers are the best in their kd ratio usually never dying or once in the game, some maps also have restriction zones before you reach them

[lost hill]

the warbow, even at max dropoff, is what. 50-60 damage?

[vagrant eagle]

If you want nothing to penalize, then offer a auto balance solution so people cant team switch to offensive most of the time as these archers are offensive favorites

[worn marsh]

There isn’t a rework that would make killing an archer a % you agreed with unless it was 51%+

[pliant trail]

What the fuck are you talking about? Have you ever PLAYED super long-range? Atlotta things can happen while your arrow is travelling unless you've been playing against bots. Also idk where you're getting those stats from

[lost hill]

how about a rework.. that makes it skill based for BOTH the archer and the melee...

i know, novel concept

[worn marsh]

One of the best Archers was a Knight Archer with a longbow who used a controller

[worn marsh]

It already is

[lost hill]

an archer killing a knight doesnt require much skill though.

[worn marsh]

If they are standing still nope

That goes both ways

[lost hill]

the archer can block anything a melee can do to them (that isnt picking up a bow)

melee cant block everything NEARLY as easy

countering arrows isnt a viable counterplay

[vagrant eagle]

Not if the frontline is static or newbs in general that are archers in the defense, inexperienced. I only see one good archer in defense a few times a week, thats awful as i see them in offense almost every game

[worn marsh]

You get close to an Archer you have a massive advantages.

You get away from an after you have a massive disadvantage

[vagrant eagle]

They play offensive because defenders arent likely to sally forward torwards them in most maps or restricted zones

[lost hill]

thats because most skilled players stack offense, and a compounding issue, as it highlights the issues with archer

[vagrant eagle]

Yes reason why auto balance should be done already

[lost hill]

hmmm. thats assuming you can beat the archer in melee combat

[vagrant eagle]

A very strong early auto balance

[lost hill]

its actually already in game.. it just doesnt work very often.

[worn marsh]

A knight main who can’t beat an Archer in Melee shouldn’t be playing Knight

[vagrant eagle]

31/31 system is flawed and not a auto balance at all

[lost hill]

youre right. they should be playing archer, because you dont need to be skilled to play archer.

[lost hill]

no, i mean it doesnt work as in... ive been in games where we're down 5+ players, and nothing happens

[vagrant eagle]

Auto balance selects dead players

[lost hill]

it selects them... rarely, when it feels like working.

[vagrant eagle]

Ive only ever seen it forced on death

[worn marsh]

So they can’t beat a class with a severe disadvantage they should play it?

You tried bud, good effort.

[lost hill]

ive only seen it forced on death aswell.. but what im saying it, that it doesnt happen when the teams are uneven.

[vagrant eagle]

It does

[lost hill]

no, if they cant beat an archer in melee, that means they need to play something that doesnt require skill to play

[worn marsh]

Your complaints are making sense now, along with your gameplay.

Were you a greatsword Knight?

[lost hill]

im a skirmisher player.... i dont know how i can say that any different to get it through your thick skull

[worn marsh]

But you were melee before and you died a lot so you went Skirmisher?

[lost hill]

do you know how many people ive beaten in melee as an archer, any subclass?

its enough to know that archers arent disadvantaged to a point theyre a free kill

[worn marsh]

No class is

That’s been my point among others , thanks for reinforcing it

[lost hill]

ive always been skirmisher

idk if youve ever played it.. its this class that ACTUALLY has the downsides of archer, without getting free damage

[worn marsh]

You can throw your weapons in peoples back right?

Isn’t that free?

[lost hill]

keeper, not all archer mains are shit in melee like you are. we dont get rolled or run away when someone gets close

[worn marsh]

Post a full gameplay then! Let’s see the Alpha dog in his glory

[lost hill]

see thats the thing, im not claiming to be an alpha dog

look, you want to prove something. come to a duel server. prove it there

[worn marsh]

You are saying you are good in melee prove it , post the gameplay in full.

A self proclaimed person with “10 years of professional experience “ should be a delight to see and watch your thought process.

Please share for us Archers who aren’t as good as you in melee

[lost hill]

im offering to prove it.. against you.

i'll let YOU record it.

why are you so scared?

[worn marsh]

Sorry bud, I need to see your full gameplay to see if you aren’t just a fake account.

I mean you won’t even post your overview!

[lost hill]

LOL fake account???

yall see keeper refusing to duel me... right?

[worn marsh]

No I clearly laid out the path

[lost hill]

im not going crazy seeing that he called me out for proof that im decent in melee... but wont fight me himself?

[worn marsh]

Sheesh this is hard to watch

[lost hill]

sheehs. imagine being THAT big of a bitch to call someone out.. and back down from your own challenge

look kid. im offering to show you. in person, AGAINST you.

[worn marsh]

I laid it out bud, you can do it or dodge it.

Your call bud, put up or shut up.

[lost hill]

i mean. youre dodging the 1v1 challenge. so i guess youre just a hypocrit again.

so your choice creeper. put up or bitch out.

[worn marsh]

I made it clear how to do it.

I will check tomorrow, have a good night bud!

[lost hill]

ah, i see youre choosing the bitch out option

[fathom aurora]

You love to see it

[lost hill]

i was looking forward to knocking his weapon out of his hand, letting him pick it back up. and just repeating that process

but. i mean, we're all used to keeper not replying anymore once he realizes that he got called out

[fathom aurora]

You put him in a situation where he'd have to work for his kills, and kipper can't keep up with that demand

[lost hill]

if you watch him gameplay, im not joking when i say, he tends to get stomped as an archer in melee