Increase Heavy's resistance to movement-imparing effects

[wind rose]

I feel like Heavy (despite his 75% innate knockback immunity) still gets knocked around too easily and can't hold a position well. I think giving him more resistance to movement-imparing effects would help his "position holder" role.

Perhaps give him airblast resistance? More of both when revved?

What do y'all think?

[storm plinth]

Heavy does have knockback resistance iirc

[wind rose]

ik, it's in the description

[wind rose]

read up and we can talk

[storm plinth]

Including airblast resistance iirc

I dont think making him much more immune to knockback would be very fair

[wind rose]

would it? heavy is still slow as balls. a good flanker whoops his russian ass either way

[storm plinth]

Heavy may be slow but he’s still exceptionally powerful

[wind rose]

he simply doesn't have the movement to counter all the knocking around

[storm plinth]

He has the big ass gun to kill enemies to keep people from getting in knockback distance

[wind rose]

scouts have speed and double jumps, soldiers and demos can rjump away, spy has cloak

heavy on the other hand, is a sitting duck

[storm plinth]

Unless he is revved or has a shotgun

[dusty sable]

I mean tbf to do meaningful knockback you need to be physically close to him, and if you dont instantly get deleted when that close to a heavy its more of the heavy's fault than anything

[wind rose]

but others have movement to avoid exposure to his big ass gun, or burst damage to poke him from a corner, and he still dies in seconds if focused

[dusty sable]

if you can run up and airblast a heavy and not get punished as a pyro, thats a skill issue on the heavy's part imo

[wind rose]

he eats every stray bullet

my change doesn't affect any of this

it just makes him better at holding points, the thing he was designed to do

maybe just give him extra kb and ab res while revved for a second, the same way his dmg ramps up

heavy is already good as dead if caught mid-rev

[storm plinth]

Yes, thats why as a heavy, revving is an intentional decision and you control areas instead of trying to solo the enemy team without any other advantage

[storm plinth]

Which is why the shotgun is such a powerful tool

[wind rose]

yeah let's see ya pull it out in time. I've already given ya an extra serving of buckshot

[storm plinth]

Which is why you always have your shotgun out

Having your minigun out should be a conscious decision and not your default

[wind rose]

I think adding all that only while revved for a second is still a decent idea. it makes him serve a role he's supposed to be good at better while still having plenty of counterplay

[storm plinth]

I mean he is good at his role

You just have to be good at him

Heavy is a harder class than people think he is

[wind rose]

it's kind of a "stand or die" situation

[wind rose]

ik m8

[wind rose]

sorry, stand AND die

[storm plinth]

Yeah thats your punishment for committing when you shouldn’t have

You put yourself in a bad position so you died

[wind rose]

you think heavy, you think "big fat meat shield with big fat gun". I believe he's lacking in the "shield" department

[tidal river]

he has 300 health

even more with a medic

[wind rose]

I'm not trying to mitigate bad positioning, I'm trying to make him better at keeping GOOD positioning

[storm plinth]

I mean respectfully if you had good positioning this wouldnt really be an issue

[wind rose]

which in a high dmg, high movement env like tf2 gets depleted in a fraction of a second

[wind rose]

either way, he has to tank all the crossfire

[wind rose]

my idea here is to make him better at eating bullets

it's not really for 1v1s or micro fights, it's for objectives and against cocky pyros and sentry nests

[storm plinth]

If you have poor positioning yes

[wind rose]

those things bounce him around like a ping pong ball, with no way to counter it

[wind rose]

well except hoping your minigun kills them first

[storm plinth]

They dont though

Unless you’re jumping around for some reason, sentries arent going to be able to do anything to you

[wind rose]

alright but still he can't close the distance

[storm plinth]

Uh, yes he can?

Even while revved he can do that

Because he has a really high knockback resistance

As for Pyros airblast, yeah, that does still knock him around a little bit, but much less than other classes. Even so, you shouldn't be letting a Pyro get that close to you if you can help it.

Which isn't really much of a problem with the shotgun, but if you're relying on your minigun you should be able to easily mow them down before they get into airblasting range so long as you maintain good awareness of your surroundings

It's not "hoping your minigun kills them first" its "looking at them for like 2 seconds before they get to you"

[wind rose]

that won't help you if all guns are pointed at you

[storm plinth]

If all guns are pointed at you you are dead.

Unless you're ubered, in which case, yes it will.

Heavy's minigun is about commitment.

[wind rose]

I'm thinking of very intense cases here

[wind rose]

that's what I'm going at here! if you're gonna die either way, at least you can hold off an objective for a second while doing it

[storm plinth]

So am I. While learning how to play heavy, there were plenty of times where I made a bad call or committed to something I shouldn't have and ended up in those intense situations and died as a a result.

[storm plinth]

You can already do that.

Thats why he has so much health.

Generally the knockback from being shot at by 12 different people isn't Heavy's issue

It's the fact that 12 different people are all shooting him at once.

Which means he's dead.

You're not going to be able to hold any objective for any amount of time if that's the case.

No matter how much knockback resistance you have.

[wind rose]

movement is a lot more important than health, and making heavy faster is disasterous

[wind rose]

I'm thinking of an alternative to that

[wind rose]

and you won't be able to hold it AT ALL if you're bonked away from it

[storm plinth]

Okay but like you're not being bonked away from it

Not unless you let a pyro or fishwhacker sniper get close

Which is honestly on you

You're dying before that can happen

[wind rose]

I don't play heavy that much, if that's what you're getting at. I have no sentimental stake here

[wind rose]

like, a good uber will smole him either way

[storm plinth]

Yes because it's uber

[wind rose]

it's for those edge cases where a lot of people switch to him

[storm plinth]

In the edge cases where a lot of people are playing Heavy, I think a good kritz soldier or demo is usually the best counter to that

[wind rose]

good luck coordinating that in a pub

[storm plinth]

I mean its usually as simple as going kritz medic

You don't really need to coordinate much of anything

[wind rose]

I'm thinking of extreme pub shenanigans, like a bunch of engies building sentries on the balcony on ctf_2fort

[storm plinth]

One dynamite and those are all gone

[wind rose]

hard to break through that, even while ubered

[storm plinth]

Plus some pills for good measure

[wind rose]

pff, easier said than done

[storm plinth]

I mean I've done it that way plenty of times lol

[wind rose]

this getting repaired in an instant

you need a big sticky pile at least

[storm plinth]

Not really, the dynamite plus pills usually lends towards sentry nests dying very quickly

[gray lichen]

this is a silly, the heavy is fine as he is

[wind rose]

besides, this isn't for demo, who's already good at that

[storm plinth]

Regardless, I prescribe more heavy gameplay and not trying to buff him to be viable against 12 sentry guns shooting him at once

Because doing that is a great way to make him feel absolutely awful to fight against in regular gameplay

[wind rose]

think about it m8. he still dies to flankers, still very vulnerable during downtime, still slow af, still has a fat hitbox catching everything

[wind rose]

I'm not trying to uber buff him

[zenith vessel]

Omg, finally someone who sees value in the shotgun besides me (Even in live tf2)

[wind rose]

that's why I want these thing only when revved for a good moment, i.e, when you've already fully committed

[strong crater]

doesn’t need more buffs

[storm plinth]

Only if you lack awareness, run the shotgun, run the shotgun, stop trying to solo the entire enemy team

[zenith vessel]

That's not heavy's role tho

That's his strongsuit

Heavy's role is closer to a Defense class (Wayyyy more than demo or engi could wish for)

all of heavy's weakness can be covered by having either good defense or gamesense

[wind rose]

yes but that role works well mostly on last points on pl or 5cp, when he has nowhere to be pushed to

[zenith vessel]

and that's okay

[gray lichen]

no, it works well in many places

[zenith vessel]

not every class needs to be viable in 6's

[wind rose]

I don't play 6s m8. comp is not a concern for me

[gray lichen]

the heavy is not a bad class

[zenith vessel]

(ik it sound dumb to bring 6's, but that's the impression your argument gives)

[wind rose]

never said he was

[storm plinth]

This may come as a shock but heavy is actually a really strong class if you're good at him but all your reasoning comes off like you're not

[wind rose]

I just think one of his class roles is lacking and very niche

[wind rose]

sorry if I sounded like that

[wind rose]

I just want him to hold objectives that aren't last

[zenith vessel]

that's a very insightful non-aggressive way to say "Skill Issue"

[storm plinth]

He absolutely can

[zenith vessel]

By that logic, every class is strong if you actually understand it

Even spy

[gray lichen]

in tf2, defense is already stronger than offense to a significant degree, in part because the heavy exists. i do not think the balance needs to be changed personally, but if it is changed, it should definitely be in the other direction

[hardy river]

Heavy is already powerful ever since the minigun revert changes he doesn't need to be more stronger

[zenith vessel]

Wich fair, understanding what you play is part of tf2's game design

[zenith vessel]

Is jump-reving penalty still in tf2c?

[hardy river]

No

The whole nerfs to the miniguns were reverted

Hell, it even spins up and down much faster

And also has less spread

[wind rose]

my line of thinking is simply "if I rev up and push through all the crossfire, than I shouldn't be knocked back in place"

[wind rose]

uber doesn't change that

[zenith vessel]

why are you jumping 3 enemies that can push you around chaotically?

[gray lichen]

wait what are we even talking about, knockback resistance would make the heavy better at attacking, not at defending

[wind rose]

but if the damage and spread nerfs were reverted, I understand why it would be too op

[gray lichen]

it would make zero difference in terms of the heavy being able to defend ground

[zenith vessel]

knockback shouldn't affect heavy's aim that much

[hardy river]

The minigun was reverted to the 2010 iteration of the minigun

[zenith vessel]

if at all

[wind rose]

to be honest, I made this thread just to have something to yap about and hear everyone else's thoughts

[zenith vessel]

In it's current state i mean

[hardy river]

You can already shred everyone mid to close range

[wind rose]

it appears i sparked a good flame here. a lot of insights I otherwise wouldn't have considered

[zenith vessel]

if you want to understand class design in a way that's explain certian choices, there's wayy too many videos overanalizing these things

but tf2 is a game where most if all of the choices from relase to 2011 we're very deliberate

[hardy river]

But also fun lol

[zenith vessel]

everything that was in or out had 3 revisions and loads of playtesting before getting in

wich is a major component of not only "retro era tf2", but also classified's design choices

[hardy river]

2010-2011 were the famous era of unbalanced weapons

And not limited to item set bonuses

[zenith vessel]

every game based on matchups is doomed to busted balancing tho

i can't say it was perfect ofc

but it's way better than the current game balance left in this Ghoulslop era of live TF2

[wind rose]

I know, but I wanted to share this passion with others

[wind rose]

plus, a lot of these videos talk about the same problems and the same solutions to them, without thinking of the consequences of these design choices

[wind rose]

especially tf2 ones. there's like a billion videos how laser scopes or ammo reduction would "fix" sniper, and never elaborate how and why

so thank you gentlemen, for this pleasant afternoon

[gray lichen]

i have not seen these videos. back when i watched content talking about tf2s balance, there was a lot of variance in opinion between different creators

[wind rose]

yeah, and then everyone else parotted these opinions, without knowing why they hold them, or worse, holding them as fact

but I don't just want to think about it. I want to TALK about it

[wind rose]

I don't know many people IRL that hold such interests

[wind rose]

so I take refuge in the dark corners of the web

P.S: WTF 163 comments? I lit quite a big spark, didn't I?

[storm plinth]

Yeah

That's how that works

Knowing how to play a class makes you good at that class

[green void]

I agree that heavy is very easy to bully right now and Pyro is actually a good example. Yes, Logically Heavy should pretty much blend him given the minigun revert+spread reduction. But afterburn and "totally not Force O Nature" make that a bad matchup for Big Man. Being rev'd does already help a great deal with knockback abundance and I'm sure I'll get fact-checked by someone who knows better but I vaguely remember knockback is in some way effected by movement speed.

I can't really suggest a safe solution since any and all possible tweak would be just a net buff but I'm confident the myriad of (admittedly over-tuned to hell and back) workshop items possibly considered for potential updates will likely have a more fitting and less spiraling solution than anything a hotfix would do.

[wind rose]

good thinking

[sharp topaz]

Heavy post-(shotgun)meatshot is still tankier than an unshot soldier

[green void]

Animation lock is a thing. He was pointing out that swapping in that hypothetical is just eating extra damage and there's no instance in any recorded history of TF2 and Heavy eating JUST a singular meatshot. Still durable, yes, but even Soldiers die pretty fast if they have to swap off of their funny boomstick.

[wind rose]

yeah my change is to make him better at holding or breaking into positions without affecting anything else

right now, heavy needs a lot of support to stay in one place, and sometimes even that doesn't help him

[wind rose]

don't overthink my decision

I saw a simple problem, gave a simple solution

[storm plinth]

Again thats why you have your shotgun out by default

Not your minigun

[green void]

Right, except I personally prefer the sandvich. As stated in general. So being able to defend myself with heavies primary weapon seems more sensible instead of swapping to melee. So the extra knockback resist while un-rev'ed would be amazing. But also as stated in my response to this thread, that's not such an easy adjustment despite how welcomed it would be. Some Heavies just don't run the shotgun. It's a playstyle choice and "just use shotgun" inhibits my preference. Every heavy WILL have a minigun (-esque thing), not all Heavies will have a shotgun.

[vague wren]

yeah when u use the sandvich ur supposed to be trading off reliable self defense thats kind of the point

its what makes choosing between it and the shotgun interesting

[wind rose]

yes and the enemy would still get in 1-2 good shots before you can start attacking

[storm plinth]

No?

Thats an incredibly slow reaction speed

Unless they get you from behind ig but that goes for any class

[wind rose]

keep in mind during that time the enemy is probably constantly moving, most likely up close

making it harder to deal significant damage

[storm plinth]

Is it that hard to shoot a moving target with a shotgun?

[wind rose]

yeah if it's right in your face, yes

[storm plinth]

Skill issue

[wind rose]

cool

[storm plinth]

Like I’m gonna be real

You’re making it sound like shooting someone with a shotgun is difficult

[wind rose]

those things are not what I'm trying to prevent

if you get caught before you commit, you're dead. that's good

I'm just trying to make staying in one play easier once you commit

[surreal stag]

Heavy already has 50% knockback resistance, I do wonder why would you desire more

[wind rose]

I desire more when revved for a good while

75% resistance doesn't matter that much when you move at snails pace

[surreal stag]

for what

like, what is this that is currently dealing knockback

when you're revving

only thing that comes to my head is RPG

[wind rose]

pyros and sentries, mostly

[surreal stag]

sentries?

[wind rose]

and overall pub chaos

[surreal stag]

when revved up they barely move you

[surreal stag]

all that pub chaos does no knockback

[wind rose]

lots of sentries in fact

focus fire locks you in in one place

[surreal stag]

your medic should be running in front of the sentry btw

[wind rose]

even uber doesn't stop that much

[wind rose]

yeah, and he'll be knocked behind you

try breaking a suicide nest on 2fort and turbine

[green void]

Sick critisim. I can see your response was well considered and researched before posting. Firstly, Minigun actually has less spread than a shotgun, sure. But it doesn't change the fact that something moving 1-2 feet from your camera can be behind you VERY quickly making the minigun harder to connect in that situation and being knocked around like a ball means lining up the bullet laser is kinda hard. Second, the burst from the shotgun isn't THAT strong even with random pattern disabled getting similar damage to Heavy's spray fire funny enough.. Lastly, as he already reiterated. He's looking for staying power and being able to push into rocket spam and massive sentry holds. Not dealing with specifically scouts and pyros rushing him down.

[storm plinth]

Shotgun doesnt have rev time.

In the time it takes you to rev, you can get around 2 shots off.

[green void]

You're right, but I see this fairly rarely in pubs admittedly, but even when I try to do it myself I often see the heavy in question try to "mann mode" the robotic hoard himself. Sadly unspoken coordination isn't as common in my personal experience.

[storm plinth]

The burst is plenty strong and Heavys high health means he can take out most classes at close range.

[surreal stag]

what does a suicide nest mean

[storm plinth]

And Heavy shouldn't be pushing into chokes and sentry nests alone when he's being flanked.

Instead he should do that when he's ubered, because if he doesn't he will get shredded.

Which, again, is not a knockback issue.

[wind rose]

uber doesn't do shit against kb

[wind rose]

that's the point

[storm plinth]

It literally does

[wind rose]

other clases mitigate this by being able to actually move efficiently

heavy can't do that

[green void]

Glad to see you ignoring the rest of the post. Once more, I don't run a shotgun and I'm not alonein doing so. Also, AGAIN in the scenarios OP is suggesting it's not a 1v1. it's pushes and holds of the average game, meaning shotgun gets diminishing returns when you cease existing because 300hp's really not that much in the teamfights of TF2.

[storm plinth]

Other classes literally cannot mitigate the knockback

What's a scout going to do against sentry knockback? Jump?

Congrats, there goes your scout

There have been multiple times where I, as an ubered Pyro, cannot push into a sentry nest due to the knockback

[storm plinth]

I literally answered the rest of the post.

[wind rose]

he's the scout m8. he's supposed to pick his fights. he's for 1v1s. heavies are for big pub pushes and/or holding said pushes.

[storm plinth]

Yes. Which is why they are good at that.

Again, you're trying to up his knockback resistance so that he can push massive sentry nests that do not exist outside of incredibly fringe cases.

[green void]

And even then, Sentry pushes usually mean a Soldier or Demo get's the Uber because heavy struggles in that scene.

[wind rose]

or pushing through big chokes overall

[storm plinth]

Heavy is great in that scene?

As well as pushing through big chokes

Demo and Soldier are also good but usually if the nest is right there, Heavy is going to be my pick

[wind rose]

you don't want to uber a heavy because he can't get into position

[storm plinth]

He can though?

Unless the sentry nest is a good distance away, it's not that hard to move up and then uber around the corner

And before you go "well that can't happen in standard play, it takes too much coordination" it happens literally all the time

[wind rose]

during which you're locked in place

[storm plinth]

Maybe if there's three level 3 sentry guns focused on you at once

[wind rose]

ubering in is the easy part

[storm plinth]

But in most cases you are not locked in place

You can move forward while destroying the sentry pretty easy

[wind rose]

staying in position to do something useful is very bloody

[storm plinth]

It really isn't? Unless you're jumping but why are you jumping as an ubered heavy going against a sentry nest

[wind rose]

it's all a game of risk assement. sometimes you have to sacrifice yourself to save the game

[green void]

For the third time. I don't use shotgun, and I'm not the only one who uses sandvich. Shotgun doesn't give you aimbot when knocked about and per-pellet does similar damage to per-bullet of heav's minigun. Which you ignored and responded with "Shotgun doesn't have rev time.".

[wind rose]

other classes get a lot more for sacrifice plays. scouts and soldiers get a backcap. spies and snipers can rid a priority target. demos and pyros bruise up crowds, forcing them to retreat.

the former is the scenario I'm trying to mitigate

[storm plinth]

Right okay

Since both of you are so convinced heavy cannot move against a sentry

[green void]

First time I heard that term personally, but guessing by maps used it's when the one entrence to the intel is covered in sentries. Meaning no way to get in without getting shredded or a MASSIVE push with extra ubers.

[storm plinth]

I will make a map to show that both of you are wrong

[wind rose]

hmm

interesting approach

[storm plinth]

If you cant shoot an enemy that is within range, that is on you

[wind rose]

mate I play scout a lot

running and jumping around heavy's head is very effective

if there's a big Russian bear being a menace, this is the best way to put him down (other than sniper)

[green void]

In a pub some bum from France can work there too.

[storm plinth]

Two sentries in the same place knock you back, with one sentry you dont before you destroy it easy

The minigun kind of shreds sentry guns

[wind rose]

the former is the scenario I'm trying to mitigate

[green void]

So what you're telling me right there in the beginning is Alexx is right. Because this isn't a 1v1 with an engie. It's a push. Likely with multiple if not 1 sentry and some soldiers.

[storm plinth]

Even then, with two sentries, I'm able to easily destroy both before the uber would run out

[storm plinth]

No? I never said Heavy is immune to knockback, I said that generally speaking, his knockback resistance is enough.

[wind rose]

or in a defense scenario, some soldiers, scouts, demos and pyros with at least one uber

[storm plinth]

If they counter uber, yes, they are going to counter your uber.

[wind rose]

you should stay in that place and die for it

[green void]

This you?

[wind rose]

I'm just trying to make those sacrifice plays more worthwhile

[storm plinth]

Yes, and that's not me saying Heavy is immune to knockbacl

[green void]

Or at the very least feel less hopeless.

[wind rose]

that is the one thing I'm touching, and nothing else

[wind rose]

these couple of seconds when you're moving in, holding a control point or cart, mowing a guy down can make or break a game

if you're going to die to make a difference, at least you should feel that you could have actually made said difference

[green void]

Before I forget, I fact checked myself. Speed effects damage surfing not knockback. So brass Beast does albiet unintentionally, have slightly better staying power. but only cause he didn't fly off as fast.

[storm plinth]

I mean, the whole point of Heavy is that if you rev at the wrong time you are fucked.

Or if you unrev at the wrong time you are fucked.

I don't see how giving Heavy a metric fuck ton of knockback resistance including what he already has is going to somehow make it so that isn't the case

[wind rose]

maybe, but you can make your team less fucked at your expense

[storm plinth]

You really can't

Again, the issue is almost never that Heavy is being knocked away

It's that he's being outgunned

[wind rose]

do you know that a trade kill is?

[storm plinth]

I do know what a trade kill is. I don't see how increasing Heavy's knockback resistance will somehow make him better at getting trade kills.

All I see it doing is making him more annoying to fight outside of situations where he is, for some reason, trying to solo large groups of enemies without any backup.

The latter of which will not be significanty improved on his part because he will die just as fast as he usually would, knockback resistance or not.

[merry nebula]

Long text chain. I'll just respond to the original post.
Heavy is already arguably the best class in casual and has knockback resistance. I completely disagree with your original post where you said he "can't hold a position well". He is unmatched in his ability to hold a position. Pyro is already destroyed by heavy in the 1v1 let bro right click the heavy a few feet away as a desperate attempt to stay alive lol.

[wind rose]

hmm. If others could make a point so clearly, concisely and considerately as you just did, we could end a lot of conflicts

goodnight