#The sandman

226 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

verbal marsh
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White stats:
1)Alt-fire: launch a ball that moves at 1600 h units per second with an arc
2)Once launched wait for 15 seconds to launch again or pick the ball up
3)The ball can be reflected back by you or an opponent if ball is hit with a melee
4)Does a base damage of 50 but damage increases by +15 for every reflect

Negatives:
1)-50% slower firing speed
2)Reflected ball can damage you

135px-Backpack_Sandman.png
dull flint
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So I lose half my melee for a faster weaker brick...

verbal marsh
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You barely even use your melee as the scout

verbal marsh
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Because it already has almost no purpose

dull flint
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Its fun to run at people with bat.

verbal marsh
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It would be fun to play this little sandman-minigame with your opponent

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the more the reflects means more the risk

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but pottenitaly do more damage to your opponent as well.

verbal marsh
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If you want to take the hit then do so, but if you want to take a risk and potentially do more damage to the opponent but also potentially do more damage to yourself, you would reflect. That's the main idea here.

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So I don't see your "it will be less fun" point here.

dull flint
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Scout can already throw stuff. While the game is fun. It kinda feels that every other class is getting the ability to reflect stuff and that scout doesn't get anything new.

verbal marsh
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Scout gets the potential to do a lot of damage to the opponent if he's skilled with his reflects if the opponent decides to engage with the minigame but also have a chance to lose if he messes up or his opponent is better with reflects. It adds a whole new layer to this weapon concept. I don't see the point your making here and most importantly of all it would be pretty fun and fair for both sides.

dull flint
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And just how many people can pull out a melee and hit the baseball and why would you want them to. Most of the time you would try to surprise the enemy rather than risk the 50% chance of hitting yourself.

verbal marsh
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And its not '50%'

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the chance of you losing depends on both you and your opponent's skill.

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Again

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People can just treat it like any other projectile

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or take a risk and reflect it.

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That's what adds another interesting and fun layer to this weapon.

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That's what it differentiates it from "just another projectile weapon".

dull flint
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Point 1: straight up better than bat cuz theres no downsides unless they can hit back or you need a melee to duel another scout.
Point 2: scout loses the run at people with a bat tactic and gains 'another' recharge projectile tactic.
Point 3: do you have any idea how hard it is to react (0.25 seconds), pull out a melee (0.5 seconds) and swing (about 0.35 seconds) in the middle of combat.
Point 4: competitive/tryhard/lockedin/notfriendly scouts want to actively avoid the 'fun' of people throwing your stuff back.

verbal marsh
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Counterpoint2: "Running at people with a bat tactic" isn't even a tactic. It's the most braindead thing you can do.

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Counterpoint3: Again reflecting it is a CHOICE and not mandatory. If the scout launches the ball from a distance then it would be realistic to reflect it back at him but not if in close range. Scout would most probably throw this from a distance because he has more affective close range weapons (scattergun).

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Counterpoint4: We've already seen the consequences of trying to balance both casual enviornments like community servers and competitve enviornments before, not only in TF2 but also other games as well. I don't think TF2C should be repeating that same mistake.

stone mauve
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The whole reflect thing is never actually going to do much

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So in the end just brick but a melee

verbal marsh
stone mauve
verbal marsh
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I think I already said this in counter point 3

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have you read that?

stone mauve
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My guy it literally is just a brick

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The reflecting even at long range would be extremely rare to see

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Because if you have enough time to see the small ball flying at 2000 hu and switch to melee and then hit it, you would have enough time to just dodge

verbal marsh
stone mauve
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Or just shoot him with your primary

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That does 90 dmg on average

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And is likely easier to hit

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And it's faster

verbal marsh
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Damage falloff would apply again since scout would probably hit this from mid to long range.

stone mauve
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You are actually just coping at this point

verbal marsh
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Would that be better?

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It would give more time for reflect

stone mauve
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I mean thats gonna be fine ig

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Still doubt people would actually do that to "counter" it

verbal marsh
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probaby also make it have a longer cooldown as it would deal more damage.

verbal marsh
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The sandman
White stats:
1)Alt-fire: launch a ball that moves at 1600 h units per second with an arc
2)Once launched wait for 15 seconds to launch again or pick the ball up
3)The ball can be reflected back by you or an opponent if ball is hit with a melee
4)Does a base damage of 50 but damage increases by +15 for every reflect

Negatives:
1)-50% slower firing speed
2)Reflected ball can damage you

verbal marsh
dull flint
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How about: baseball increases in damage the longer its in the air (so incentivises long range hits), has a splash radius which gets larger the further it's travelled from last person to hit it (up to a maxium) but has a slightly annoying passive downside like 20% slower switch speed on all the wearers weapons.

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Damage starts at 10 and increases by 15 every 0.5 seconds.

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This way, the more time they have to react, the more punishing it is if they don't.

subtle shoal
quaint cairn
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Just bring back the stun if you want the sandman, or do something unique with it. Give it some sort of status effect. Making it a damage dealer won’t work. It’s a combo weapon at its core.

stone mauve
quaint cairn
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The stun is fine

stone mauve
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you WHAT

quaint cairn
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It’s impossible to have an honest discussion about the Sabdman anymore because people have this specific knee jerk reaction

stone mauve
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stun is annoying it's not that deep

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just straight up free stun is not a good idea

quaint cairn
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It’s incredibly immature and most people just go “stuns don’t belong in video games” because their favorite YouTuber said it

stone mauve
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???

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i think stun being unfun is pretty reasonable

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unless it's something akin to holliday punch i see no reason to ever add stun

quaint cairn
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Yeah and I disagree. I think the stun was fine

stone mauve
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HOW

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you are literally unable to play the game for being hit by a really fast projectile

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like what is the counterplay

quaint cairn
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Yeah the same thing happens with dying I don’t really mind it.

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The counterplay is getting one hit point blank by rockets as scout, it’s incredibly difficult to play

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My problem with the sandman was that it always fostered “bitch scouts” that would just never engage unless they hit their ball, and then they’d immediately die

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I think that was the actual problem with the sandman, the scout wouldn’t be punished if he missed his ball and he could just… runaway.

stone mauve
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but that like 80% of the playerbase hate stun really doesn't make it a good idea to add now does it

quaint cairn
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The holiday punch you brought up is balanced because heavy just dies if he misses his punch. The scout CAN just die, but he can also just runaway.

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I think for the stun to work, scout himself just be momentarily stunned if he loses, or marked for death, with an accompanying loud sound effect to let the would be victim “hey this dork missed his ball on you, fuck him up because he was going to stun you”

stone mauve
quaint cairn
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90% of the player base thinks a lot of stupid crap so I don’t care

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People are highly susceptible to social trends that influence already held sentiments. People for a long time have FELT sniper was a little overpowered, but the “nerf sniper” discourse was largely shaped and influenced by multiple YouTubers who helped give form to that sentiment. The anti-stun mechanic trend was also influenced by community members, and likewise could be shaped again.

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TF2 is a game of trends and fads. I pay no mind to what the player base thinks, because it can change on a dime. Which is fine, that’s how tight knit communities like TF2 works. But to use it as an argument against an idea is pointless.

stone mauve
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are you a conspiracy theorist or what

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sniper is op that isn't even an opinion

quaint cairn
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You’re missing what I’m saying. My point isn’t that sniper is op was made by a cabal of YouTubers, but that the specific trend the sentiment eventually formed was influenced by community members.

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Think about it like this. Everyone at a restaurant thinks a certain dish tastes bad. Everyone goes “yeah I don’t like this…” and “this doesn’t taste right”. But one guy goes “This dish tastes like ROTTEN EGGS”, and then everyone goes “yeah, this tastes like rotten eggs!” And “rotten eggs don’t belong in my food!” Everyone already agreed that the dish tastes bad, but the form the objections and protests took were shaped by one guy.

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That’s what happened with the sandman. People rightfully recognized that the sandman wasn’t the most balanced item.

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But instead of having a balance discussion, the discussion shifted to removing the stun. Which I believe was the wrong direction to take the weapon.

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Does that make sense?

stone mauve
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but even with everything you said there are things that will always be annoying and stun is one of them. no matter how it was ballanced i would always be annoyed by stun that is basically free. that one guy started the discourse doesn't mean everyone was hypnotised by it. they each had the opinion themselves and when seeing that big youtuber talk about it makes it easier to continue the discourse of the subject.

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even if sandman literally did 0 damage and had a minute of recharge it would still be annoying. it has nothing to do with ballance. Its the effect

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just like food could look good but still taste bad because there is shit inside of it

quaint cairn
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And I simply don’t think the effect is that bad. Being stunned isn’t really a big deal. You can move around, stick with your team, and in general I think the ball is hard enough to hit that a few seconds of vulnerability isn’t that big of a deal. The ball is a slow moving extremely bright projectile that arcs and has an incredibly small hitbox, and in effective combat range basically does 1 second of stun.

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That’s not a big deal to me.

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And I think that there’s a lot of things that strip control from you and it’s fine. A movement shooter needs to have counter play to movement, lest we have a game dominated by rocket jumping soldiers.

stone mauve
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Yea if nothing happens when you are stunned it isn't a big deal but if then a soldier comes around the corner while you are stunned it feels undeserved and therefore frustrating

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thats why things that strip controll from you are bad when in this extreme

quaint cairn
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Sure. But there’s tons of frustrating things in the game. It’s a frustrating game. I hate being bounced up by rockets. It’s annoying as fuck. Do I want it removed? No.

stone mauve
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there you are able to fight back

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in stun you aren't

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that is your fault. not that you were under an effect that literally forced you to die

quaint cairn
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But are you really? Are you really hitting your pellets as a scout when you get bounced up? Are you revving your minigun ? The only thing that applies to are splash damage classes

stone mauve
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if you just start to rev up there you could have always jump revved or used a shotgun to make yourself less vulnerable to ambushes

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but the sandman? the fastest class shoots a fast projectile at you aaaaaand you loose

quaint cairn
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I just don’t think TF2 is a game of chess where you always need to be 100% in control and every matchup needs to have perfect counterplay. I don’t think pyro needs a good way to counter heavy or heavy needs an anti-backstab weapon. Sometimes you just die and there’s nothing you can do

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So what? You respawn in 30 seconds at worst, and keep playing.

stone mauve
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well if you can't deal with a heavy you can always fall back

subtle shoal
stone mauve
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so if we added a pyro flaregun that stunned for 2 seconds. yup you aren't in controll so was that fun that you literally could't do anything

subtle shoal
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In which people will right away assume you want just the old stun

subtle shoal
quaint cairn
subtle shoal
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The sole idea of punishing someone for missing

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Is kind of Bad design in itself

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Yes I think boston basher is badly designed

quaint cairn
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What does “bad design” even mean here? What objective standard are we appealing to?

subtle shoal
subtle shoal
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That bad design

quaint cairn
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Sure, but there sandman wouldn’t be that even with the proposed change.

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You still get one shot by meat shots and rockets.

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As someone who used to play with it regularly, it lowkey kind of fucking sucks even with the stun.

subtle shoal
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To fit that criteria

quaint cairn
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You get one kill against a sniper and die.

subtle shoal
stone mauve
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Only exception being direct hit on clase range

quaint cairn
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I don’t really know what you mean. Was that a gotcha or something saying I suck?

subtle shoal
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You will never die to 1 rocket unless you're hugging the soldier

stone mauve
subtle shoal
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Rockets deal 112 max dmg

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Meatshots deal 105 max dmg

quaint cairn
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In practical combat yes, yes you do. It doesn’t technically cross the thresholds but you practically do.

subtle shoal
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if you can deal 110 dmg you can deal 125

stone mauve
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You do know thats double the time to kill

subtle shoal
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It's crazy to think that's gonna be a Big difference for weapons like that

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There's 50000 better designed downsides than that

stone mauve
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Ngl i don't see the point in argueing anymore it's like talking to a wall

quaint cairn
subtle shoal
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And you're not gonna be at normal hp either as overheal exists lol

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That do be throwing the entire point away

quaint cairn
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Yeah it goes both ways sure lol, but I think minus health is way more punishing than you’re giving it credit for.

subtle shoal
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In this case it's not

stone mauve
subtle shoal
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And it was nothing compared to the huge ability to essentially leave someone defenseless with an extremely slowed movement speed

quaint cairn
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What would you consider a meaningful threshold for health then?

subtle shoal
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Because this game has damage falloff

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Why do you think tf2c devs toy with crit downsides more

quaint cairn
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I feel this is more of a theoretical discussion. I find myself agreeing with you in perfect, idealized scenarios that yeah, -15 doesn’t really cross any thresholds but in usual combat this problem just doesn’t come up.

subtle shoal
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15 padding for chip damage does nothing for scout

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Still

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Even if a better downside is found

quaint cairn
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It really does

subtle shoal
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... How can You actually defend the stun

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And I'm not saying this as

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"stun doesn't belong in games"

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But rather "the best 1v1 class doesn't need the ability to completely shut you down for hitting 1 projectile"

quaint cairn
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I don’t think being stunned for a few seconds is any worse than a lot of other interactions in the game, really. My problem with it was always that the scout doesn’t actually have to engage with you and can completely nullify the supposed downside to the weapon.

subtle shoal
subtle shoal
stone mauve
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Forget it vror he clearly isn't going to agree

quaint cairn
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Gotta admit you raise a pretty good point. But I don’t really think Scout being able to control other people’s movement at the cost of his 1v1 potential is bad. A scout that doesn’t follow up on his stun is going to be worse at a 1v1, and absolutely fucked if he doesn’t have it ready period. It’s a big investment that forces you to rely on it, and I think that does compromise your ability to actually fight. The problem is, and will always be when it comes to unlocks that make scout even more of a glass canon, is that he can just disengage as you said. This has always been a nightmare for a lot of items.

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It does make one understand why valve thought no double jump was a good downside on the launch of the weapon.

subtle shoal
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And it's a nightmare because people will cry the moment their unlock isn't undoubtly better than stock

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(or weaker but substantially easier to minmax)

quaint cairn
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I must admit I’m also guilty of this, I was extremely skeptical of the shock therapy for that exact reason

subtle shoal
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Yes

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And now people are complaining about the anchor being too punishing for using it

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When in reality the downside is a lot less impactful the better you are at strafing, but it's still always present

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This is also the reason why dynamite is loved

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It's such an inferior weapon than stickybombs, but it's so easy to use that I've seen so many say "it's actually a sidegrade!"

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Not that I'm complaining about dynamite just pointing out how people think

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The moment balance is not like their chungus wholesome live version they'll be worried

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But the issue with the sandman stun is that once again if a good player has it, there's nothing you can really do

quaint cairn
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I’ve always kind of dislike how people act like stock melee is completely useless when it very obviously has a very clear use case of high burst damage, as an aside

subtle shoal
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Well yes, they're just used to having better unlocks

quaint cairn
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Interestingly, I think specifically unlocks made stock melee MORE useful

subtle shoal
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There's a reason demo bottle is still relevant

quaint cairn
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Flaregun+fire axe is an extremely useful combo, as is gunboats and stock shovel

subtle shoal
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The answer is because nothing that was just full utility at the cost of nothing was added to demo

quaint cairn
subtle shoal
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I still say the whole idea of making the 1v1 class better at 1v1 is bad

quaint cairn
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I’d go with no double jumps, personally, I’ve always liked that original idea but couldn’t imagine myself ever sticking with it

subtle shoal
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And if you make them worse at 1v1

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It's still gonna be infuriating to deal with

quaint cairn
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I think making classes better at what they do, in principle, isn’t bad. Much like stock melee the problem is that unlocks that do this are almost always extremely boring (backburner)

subtle shoal
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Hm, I suppose I can agree with that first sentence

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Should probably say "the idea of making the 1v1 class better by allowing him to disable their enemy is not a good idea"

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Because a good scout is not only hard to deal with because he can Dodge lots

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Now there's a considerable chance you won't even be allowed to fire at him

quaint cairn
subtle shoal
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Still... Not sure how the idea of

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"instead of me having to get better at dodging, I need to get better at hitting this single projectile" is a good thing

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Scout is only fair because he doesn't deny you, he outplays you

quaint cairn
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I think it’s fun and would offer a new way to play scout

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That’s kind of a generic response let me elaborate

subtle shoal
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Is the issue here

quaint cairn
subtle shoal
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Not to sound like a douche but you get airshotted without double jump?

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It's a lot rarer than you might think

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And most splash is dodged through being on high ground

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Rather than double jumping

quaint cairn
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I can’t actually remember the last time I’ve been airshotted as scout, but I’ve always used double jumps to juke soldiers and demos

subtle shoal
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If anything this would encourage pussy scouts even more

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Only getting close when hitting you with the ball

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And staying away while in cooldown

quaint cairn
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I don’t know, hitting that ball would only really allow one good meatshot on you. I think it would encourage sandman scouts to pick their fights more rather than just use the ball as a default.

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Pussy scouts are problematic because they try and fail, not because they don’t engage at all.

subtle shoal
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Encouraging bad habits is not a good idea

quaint cairn
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A scout that doesn’t engage is a non issue. Giving scout a reason to make SURE he succeeds would probably be fine

subtle shoal
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It does create a very black/white situation

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Of

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"if he can't use ball on me, then he's weaker, if he can use ball on me, I'm unable to retaliate in any single way"

verbal marsh
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WHOLY 125 messages?