1700 Ken/Akuma/Ryu Player Offering Coaching

[sweet grove]

if you heavy demon flip after

tech courtesy of @hardy parrot

[limber basin]

hmmm okok

[limber basin]

@sweet grovethe fucking blockstring and the ramifications are go fucking useful

jumpin into TC and then FB or Tatsu is so so nice, and even in neutral if they do some dumb shit

[sweet grove]

let's go

[rapid comet]

@sweet grove got a vod uploaded on YouTube. I just started palying the game bronze 4 Ken. 10 hours in. Interested in giving a guy some tips? If you are I can link the vod

[sweet grove]

yeah for sure i can have a look

how much fighting game experience do you have?

[rapid comet]

Let’s just go with 0. The last time I took fgc seriously was like third strike and I was like 10 years old. We had a bunch of locals at the arcade. So that was like 15 years ago.

https://youtu.be/lDOyMZgDkzI?si=v5uNOZvxriLa--ju

I do have a competitive gaming back ground magic the gathering and league of legends. I do know how to vod review and practice game theory.

[sweet grove]

Np, I only ask because I just want to get an idea of where you're at. I have a few other preliminary questions:

What do you know about frame data? What does frame data mean to you?

How familiar are you with common fighting game notations? (Like, Cr.MP, 5MK, etc)

How familiar are you with some common fighting game concepts? Like, frame traps, whiff punishing, special cancelling, hit confirming, etc

[rapid comet]

I have a basic understanding of hit confirm. Like I know you can do CR MK into Tatsu/fireball.

I’ve can do CR MK. In L Tatsu into M DP in the practice tool.

I can do DI into into Dp cancel into lvl 3. Not consistent on the DP. But I can do DI into lvl 3.

Frame data I have a very basic understanding. Like I knows move that is -3 on block is safe to just throw out.

Whiff punishing is when they throw out CR MK whiff and you respond with 5 HP if your spacing is good? I think. Or they just throw out a random DP and you have a lot of frames to do whatever you want.

[sweet grove]

Hrm, okay I think we might have a few terms mixed up, or there might be some misunderstandings to what some of these things mean - and that's okay! Just wanted to get an idea. I do want to clarify some of these terms though since they will be useful for us going forward:

Hit-Confirm is when you visually see that a move hits (rather than being blocked) and you follow through with something else, usually in the form of cancelling into a special move (such as hadouken). Some moves have a larger cancel window than others, which allows you more time to react and hit confirm. One good example of a hit confirm you can try for yourself, is St. MK. If you see that it hits, you press St. MK again followed by St. HP (St. MK > St.MK > St. HP is a target combo). If the first St. MK instead gets blocked, you don't follow it up with the rest.

Special-Cancel is when you cancel a move early into a special move. In our previous example, you can cancel St. MK into hadouken. Not all moves can be special cancelled.

Whiff Punish is when you see that an opponent whiffs a move (as in, they press the move and it isn't close enough to hit you or for you to block it) and, you catch the tail end of their move with your own move. If you play other games like league of legends, then what I want you to imagine is Volibear missing his ultimate, and then you hitting him when he whiffs.

For now, I don't think it's important for you to focus on whiff punishes or difficult hit confirms. Instead, I think we'll work with tools that are strong and that work both on hit and on block.

What I'd like for you to do, is to check out the pinned messages

have a read through those and take a look at those videos

i think the easiest way to start playing/understanding fighting games

is to have a solid/strong gameplan

[rapid comet]

The more advance stuff like jinrai loops. Run Tatsu/DP. Omega lost. I’m not sure how to use drive rush

[sweet grove]

try to incorporate those things into your gameplan for now

and if you have questions about them, let me know

[rapid comet]

Yea like if we could do a flow chart style gameplay that would be good. That’s what I’m used to for league

[sweet grove]

yeah for sure

check out this threads pinned messages

[rapid comet]

@sweet grove when you say “st” you mean standing?

[sweet grove]

yep!

[rapid comet]

Is throwing out a heavy dragon lash in neutral safe on block?

What do you think about throwing out a fireball and running in behind it

[main anvil]

standing block is +1, crouching block is +2
So if you jab after you are minimally faster on standing, but trade chance is there), on crouch you have some advantage

not jot, but thought i give you a fast reply since i just saw it

[sweet grove]

yeah harmy has the right idea

basically, just know that generally speaking

a jab is the fastest thing in this game

(4f)

so if you heavy dragonlash, not only is it safe but it puts you in either a +1 or +2 situation

at +1 your jabs will beat their jabs everytime assuming you time it right. this is because it effectively shaves off 1f from your startup, making your 4f jab now a 3f jab

at +2 your 5f moves like st.mp will come out before their jabs because it shaves 2f off making it a 3f st.mp

so the idea is to just follow up heavy dragon lash with 3 jabs

and if you see the jabs hit and combo, then you cancel the last jab into light kick jinrai

[sweet grove]

a good idea! follow a light fireball with either run kick, or a drive rush st.hp

[main anvil]

Something that i also like to do.
Fireball and running behind it if i have an enemy without fireballs or rarely spamming fireballs
If they have fireballs, an EX(/OD) fireball can be nice to clear the way.

A OD fireball beats every normal fireball, and two colliding OD fireballs will just vanish together

[clear creek]

ive truly hit rock bottom

played some ken after akuma today and it just feels like hes so limited in what he can actually do

🫠

its joever for me, boys

[clever reef]

While ken might feel limited in what he can do he still remains really good and covers much more than akuma. They're just played so differently that when switching it feels worse than it actually is

I get so confused when switching between them too especially with the walk speed

Akuma is so fast

[main anvil]

I mean, switching between two characters that have different muscle memory and different combos and are not played the same, there will be some sucking after switching back and forth

Has nothing to say about skill LUL

[clear creek]

Still just struggling to fight Akuma’s air fireball alone

And like yeah it’s really good and there are some angles/ranges where you can’t actually DP him for it

I guess you’ve gotta be on TOP of the reaction and DI?

[clever reef]

DI works but i find it kinda unreliable sometimes, if the spacing is good you can try to go for a forward jump for a big punish

[sweet grove]

i'm saying this from a place of trying to be an Akuma main but, I personally don't mind the air fireball in the mirror and, if I was playing Ken I don't think I would mind either. I find that anti-airing it is very similar to anti airing a jump with DP and, often times even if I get clipped it doesn't lead to much.

as opposed to lets say, cammy instant air divekick

[sweet grove]

also this, if ur really looking for it

u can call him out and land a full jump in combo

[main anvil]

my fav solution is either neutral jump and down kick (should they want to rush), or ex fireball, break their fireball, hit them when they land (if they neutral jumped)

[clear creek]

Idk man sometimes it feels actually impossible to do anything about if you’re like already maybe walking back for a sec or sitting there. Like if he doesn’t throw a bad one that’s him right on top of you it requires a good bit

At least usually I just see people DP through it and at least when I go for it he’s never actually close enough to hit, sadly

[sweet grove]

Again, I've only mainly been playing the mirror but, when I do, I anti air it with DP pretty consistently

but other suggestions in this thread by harmy and carrot man are good too

not downplaying its usefulness but i personally would rather deal with air fireball

than cammy divekick anyday

or checking drive rush

[clear creek]

Cammy divekick requires a degree to stop often tbf

[sweet grove]

not too sure what u mean by this

[clear creek]

At least it feels like it with how fast it comes out

Or I’m just really bad at it.

[sweet grove]

no, im in agreement that its hard to check

[clear creek]

Maybe I’m just dooming for no reason tho

[sweet grove]

i just dont actually know what u meant

u said requires a degree

a degree of what

[clear creek]

Feels like you need a college degree to be ready for it often

[sweet grove]

o

[clear creek]

It was dumb dw

[sweet grove]

i feel like its a bit of a non sequitor but i get the sentiment haha

yeah in short, its tough

[clear creek]

It’s the early morning and I’m just sayin shit On my way to work lol

This sucks cuz I refused to play Akuma at combo breaker till I was out of bracket so I could work on him a lot

Then after I pretty much only played Akuma, now my Akuma is okay but I think I need to play only Ken again to get him back up lol

[sweet grove]

ya thats kinda how it goes with fighting games unless ur experienced with playing multiple characters lol

im the same way

[clear creek]

Yeeeea

[sweet grove]

except im sticking with akuma

i personally think it would take me too long and take too much mental power to play both

so just trying to rewire my ken brain

almost there

[clear creek]

I guess that makes sense. Ken is just my favorite SF character and I refuse to drop him

[main anvil]

Just my overall thoughts in this scenario, or different reactions I have to the air fireball

I either:
Neutral jump + down kick
OD fireball

Block the fireball, and hand out a good poke to stop their momentum -> even just a jab works well depending on their follow up, if they do the overhead, just blocking, waiting for their push and punishing with a jab works phenomenal for me

Just hold block and wait for what they want to do.

Block the fireball and neutral jump after to disrupt any thought they have in their head and land with either hp down or a throw

Depending on situations ->

If you have a good distance, and they have the tendency to do air fireball, jump more often with them for air to air, hk is awesome for that
Usually hits them before their fireball can hit you and the ball vanishes

If they are very combo happy, block fireball, di for their rush in.
Block fireball and ex DP

If they just poke around with fireball
Block fireball and ex fireball for any follow up ball and give pressure

Ex fireball, dlash throw is also great, cuz if they see your fireball they usually land blocking, and if they don't have a good reason to do otherwise, the block is often crouching, so you're plus 2 and ez throw 🙂

Dash back few steps and reset

Jump backwards and poke

Or, the greatest, perfect parry fireball, and go to offense cuz they expect you to stay in the same place
Just following with a running tatsu, or running shoryuken is extremely high risk, but funny af.

If you don't know how they play, block, check what their follow up is, and either continue to block or punish gaps etc

[clear creek]

Most the time I end up blocking the air fireball, he’s either plus and close enough to do something about it, or plus for a drive rush and I get clipped. Really stressful

That move is juiced, it like ties the whole of Akuma together.

I’m definitely gonna have to just sit down and go through all that though, cuz right now I just try to DP, block it, or jump at him and hope he did throw it

[sweet grove]

yeah if u have trouble dping then it will for sure make it difficult

try to call it out once or twice with a counter jump

make them think twice about doing it again

key for any hard reaction tho, is u have to be looking for it

meaning you use a lot of your mental stack

but your opponent doesn't know that

[limber basin]

@sweet grove anything more optimal I can do out of 2MK drc 2LP ? I wanna get smthn that leads into a safejump/good oki

right now I got (...) 2LP 2HP light tatsu and sweep

[sweet grove]

I prefer 2MK DRC 2MP

into 5MP TC

but if you wanna do 2LP

to keep it tight

and prevent a reversal

it's +9 on hit

and +3 on block

[limber basin]

i remembered that just as I wrote my msg lol

[sweet grove]

so you can go into a lot of things

after that

it's just that it's a tight link

hard to hit confirm

[limber basin]

yeah

rn I kinda wanna set dummy on random block

and just react if it's a block or a hit

[sweet grove]

yeah setting dummy to random block is best way to practice hit confirms

but just fyi, it's not actually possible to hit confirm Cr. MK DRC

you're hit confirming the entire Cr. MK DRC Cr. LP

still harder than Cr. MK DRC Cr. MP but still doable

i would only start doing the former if your opponent is reversaling your Cr. MK DRC tho

[limber basin]

Ya I think Ill start doing 2mk drc 2mp as a focus

[limber basin]

@sweet grove so in some matches I think I started to get a feeling for the airfireballs angles

and also doing driverush something after doing it, if the spacing allowed me to do so

thoughts?

I also did a bit of the commandgrab after the opponents was parrying my fireballs

[sweet grove]

yeah so, 100% it's a good idea to know when to drive rush after a fireball

but it's extremely variable on

what fireball you use

and what distance you are from the opponent

the heavier the air fireball you use

the less + frames you'll have if they block it

[limber basin]

yeah I figured that out for the standing fireball

[sweet grove]

but heavier fireballs also catch them from trying to air to air you sometimes

[limber basin]

no idea for the air ones

i was doing air fireball, probably the light one, when I was a bit further than the screen start distance?

cant remember too well

[sweet grove]

yeah i would say, screen start from training mode is a good range to setup an light/medium air fireball

if you input it as fast as it is possible,

you can drive rush jab to make it a true block string

heavy air fireball is more for catching them trying to anti air or air to air

since it travels further and faster

I personally have been going for F. HP target combo after a medium air fireball from that range

[limber basin]

yeah I figured out how good light air fireball was for pressure

[limber basin]

oooo

[sweet grove]

easy to hit confirm the medium air fireball

and the first hit

of F. HP

[limber basin]

ill try it out in the lab

[sweet grove]

it's also a true blockstring from that range

[limber basin]

gotcha

[sweet grove]

if you do air fireball instant

[limber basin]

ill note it down what you said

[sweet grove]

but honestly, in my experience people just walk back if they're not ready to anti air or air to air

in which case, it sort of messes with your setups

but that's fine

because if they walk back

you are winning the spacing in neutral

they are going to the corner

[limber basin]

unrelated, but how reliable is command grab for punishing people parrying my fireballs? obviously not across the screen, but one square or smthn like that more distant than screen start?

[sweet grove]

the one that works more often than not is neutral jump OD air fireball

[limber basin]

yeah thats why I like DR after it

makes me safe

[sweet grove]

this is more of a callout/reaction check

if you notice they are just holding down back

maybe waiting for DI

or a whiff punish

you can decide if they're going to be able to react to it

[limber basin]

right, right, I forgot you can do that

[limber basin]

gotcha, yeah

like, idk, varying my approach with air fireball felt good

since using 5HK, 6HP or making them do smthn with fireball

is good, yeah, but idk

[sweet grove]

yeah these are great observations that you've found

it's part of his strength for sure

but yeah it's a bit variable

[limber basin]

also slowly trying to do 2MP after 2MK DRC

[sweet grove]

since they can also walk back

[limber basin]

my AAs felt very good in those matches

very proud of those

[sweet grove]

nice man 😄 awesome to hear

[limber basin]

but my confirms and poking, yeah, that's the next step

[sweet grove]

underrated poking tool

6MK

[limber basin]

i realized that sometimes in matches

I've begun thinking what they will do upon me throwing fireballs

not much but it's smthn ig

[limber basin]

ya by poking I meant stuff like, idk, neutral, already pressing shit after a normal

when to use them, approaching and safe offense with those

etc etc

[sweet grove]

akuma mainly wins neutral by poking with fireballs, poking with some of his longer range normals, and most importantly is threatening space with his really great movement speed

which he can whiff punish with a lot of tools

[main anvil]

"in those matches" he says, after just playing 30 sets with me

[sweet grove]

and then once you are dominating neutral

you can get in their head with some of his other tools

like demon flip

and air fireball

and command grab

[limber basin]

yeah I kinda think I get it

Im not doing raw demonflip yet, tho

maybe in the corner off 5MP TC but even then

gotta practice to get in the distance for 5MP

[sweet grove]

ooo didn't realize you guys just got done playing 30 sets lol

nice

you guys are leveling up

[limber basin]

he was ahead of me by like

8 wins at some point

brought it back to almost 50-50

[main anvil]

I have enough excuses, don't hurt me 😦

[main anvil]

Hahaha, ye, we played for like 80 minutes

[main anvil]

In a week I'm gonna smoke u

[limber basin]

i hope so

[main anvil]

[gusty schooner]

@sweet grove Hi Jot, thank you for the thread regarding coaching. I've just came back to the game after playing it for a few hours on release but not really enjoying any of the characters. With Akuma's release i'm now back into it and managed to get to plat 4 so far but i want to level up more. Is the coaching via this thread or do you do spectating or sets to help give feedback as well?

[sweet grove]

Nice great to hear! So largely, people just send replays/replay IDs for me to review, and then I writeup what I observe about your gameplay and what we can change/remove/ add to it.

I do offer playing sets sometimes but replay review is where we usually start

I might also ask some preliminary questions but seeing as you are plat, I'm going to assume you know a few things about fighting games

[gusty schooner]

Thanks Jot.

I'll play some games today and send across a few losses to see what i'm doing wrong. I do have a rough idea in terms of what i'm doing wrong but i'm always confused on how to address them efficiently.

[sweet grove]

Yeah no worries! Maybe start by sending 2 replays: 1 where you felt like things went according to your gameplan, and 1 where you felt like you struggled.

[sweet grove]

for those of u interested in akuma tech

something ive been sometimes doing recently, is if u noticed your f.mk whiff punishes

and lands a punish counter

if ur in range u can confirm into sweep

[rapid comet]

@sweet grove if opp blocks H dragon lash. But I’m able to catch them with a 5LP what are some options I can route into?

[sweet grove]

few things you can do!

iirc, can't really confirm just the 5LP or any jab by itself, maybe if it's a counter hit confirm but, if it is possible it's very difficult

so you might as well buffer a few jabs and then make it a multiple hit confirm

for example, you might do like 3 x 5LP, then cancel into shoryuken or light jinrai from the last 5LP

if you see that they hit

you can also do 2LP, 5MP TC

because if 2LP hits, it puts them in 5f of blockstun

allowing it to combo into 5MP

but if they block 2LP, they can interrupt you if you try to press 5MP after

but largely, you buffer more than 1 jab and make it a multiple hit confirm

[rapid comet]

Ok ive been just poking with the 3x 5LP but wasn’t sure if there was anything more I could do off it.

Is there a better button I can press than 5LP

[sweet grove]

and when you see all 3, or even 2 of them land, you can decide how you want to combo

all the jabs are samey, just depends on what routes you want to do or what distances you want to cover

#1227912851637927946 message

if you watch this video

the first thing I do is a situation after dragonlash

i basically just buffer 3 x 5LP

and then on the last one I cancel it into light jinrai

if you want to simplify, you could do this for now

and if you want to practice hit confirms after a dragonlash you can try this:

at the same time you can practice reacting to DI

[rapid comet]

That’s a good one.

[sweet grove]

and to make sure your timing is tight, unlike the video, you could set one of the slots for block reversal to be a 5LP

so that the dummy will interupt you if you didnt' time it right

[rapid comet]

Can you go into the chinbuster run dragonlash ex DP from this?

[sweet grove]

yeah 5MP TC = 5MP Target Combo = Chin Buster

so because 2LP links into 5MP,

you can do 2LP into chin buster

into whatever you want

[sweet grove]

Thought I'd share some corner tech I've been labbing:

After any relatively point blank OD Hadouken that hits you're +55 so if you frame kill with st.lp, you can get a safe jump.

After any OD Adamant Flame, if you do Cr. HP xx Heavy Adamant Flame, you're +41 for another safe jump to OD DPs.

i fked up the combo at the end but you can do l. dp xx level 3

imo this is pretty practical scenario for 100 - 0

since u have 2 safe jumps in this sequence

[sweet grove]

I rescind the first part, doing the st. lp frame kill - i didn't realize you could juggle after OD Hadouken LOL

it's strictly better to just follow up OD hadouken with medium tatsu

for more damage

and +41

easier to do too

[rapid comet]

Is the Ken VS DJ MU horrendous? I’m watching daigo play the Ken side and it looks like he is struggling to get an opening.

[sweet grove]

uhhh, personally I find DJ tough yeah since his fireballs have 2 hits

he has a lot of mixups to look out for

i personally choose one to hard call out and focus on that

so if i find out he likes to sway after a certain button

or from a certain range

then ill wait for that

and try to whiff punish

but yeah its hard

if u can get a read on where he likes to sonic boom

try to EX hadouken

[rapid comet]

Yea I went 0-4 against it last night. I think I only took one round of each one. Went to check out how daigo plays it. Like you said the best he could do was try to get whiff punishes.

2 MK which is a button I like alot just seems absolutely useless against DJ.

[sweet grove]

yeah it's tough

i think you need to try to be proactive against him so he can't set fireball pressure

or know the ranges in which you can safely just parry/block his fireballs

and still be able to check his DR

not easy

but DeeJay players

can't resist DR St. LP

so if you know ur range to check it

and ur ready

u can blow him up

@rapid comet

[sweet grove]

found another setup in the corner:

OD Adamant Flame, B. HK xx Demon Flip (Any), Kick Ender (Dive Kick)

gives real safe jump +42

at the cost of some damage

so if your opponent knows the first setup from +41 loses to 5f dp

then you can just do this one

[cursive wren]

aLOT of akumas do that command grab as Im standing up after knockdown. Is there a way to avoid that?

And that double spin kick, is that not blockable while crouched? (I thought I was blocking but not really sure)

[sweet grove]

yeah it's like any other command grab, you can just jump

and assuming they didn't time it meaty, which is not likely

you can just interupt them

[cursive wren]

so I need to be holding to jump back as my standup animation starts?

[sweet grove]

if you mean his St. HK, if you crouch you can make him whiff

[sweet grove]

yeah exactly

or if he didn't time it meaty

u can just mash to interrupt

[safe ruin]

hey not sure if coaching is still being offered. Currently on my last wits struggling in plat 5. Been working on frame data, BnBs, etc and I've taken a plummet to the bottom of plat 5 from almost making it to diamond 1.

[sweet grove]

yeah 100%

if you have replays to share, let's start there

let's pick 2

1 where you felt like things went accordingt o plan

and another where you felt like you were struggling a lot

and that those struggles are things that you'd like to address

[safe ruin]

First off, appretiate the reply. Akuma main. Right now I'm going to have to hit the hay but I'll watch some tomorrow so I can give you some good ones instead of just randomish ones.

[sweet grove]

sounds good!

[covert bison]

Hey man, would you be willing to teach me ken from the ground up? I don't really know anything about him and just switched to a new controller, so learning a new char would go well with that

[woven valley]

If you're willing to start Ken, i'm available this evening to start with the basics

[covert bison]

aight, I'm going to the gym from 6 to 9 MESZ

when do you have time?

[woven valley]

Should be there after 9

[covert bison]

aight perfect

[umbral plinth]

Silver Ken looking for some help!

[mystic sedge]

Do you know top of mind which chars win against a +41 setup?

Also, i noticed that sometimes my jHP doesn't connect on a +41, does it require a specific timing to press the button after jumping?

[shy comet]

anyone help a 1400 mr Ken getting smoked as soon as he got into masters

[stone tiger]

Hello, I'm new to fighting games and I started a few months ago with SF6 and I'm loving it, I currently play with a leverless and I got used to it and I started with Zangief and I'm loving it, but now I wanted to start playing Ken and I wanted some kind of help with the basics because I tried to play with it and I didn't know what to do 😅

[woven valley]

Same for Sijebi, I can find some time to train you with Ken

[stone tiger]

Nice! Can you sen me a message with your availability? Thanks a lot!

[woven valley]

dm'ed

[hardy parrot]

Anyone with a 5f light dp

[mystic sedge]

Åh.
So like ryu L DP hits, but M/H/OD are blocked

[hardy parrot]

Yes

In the s2 patch they made most light dp's 5f

[mystic sedge]

Aha

[finite goblet]

Hello, I just started sf6 as a newbie and am looking foward to learn Ken from the ground up. Currently in Bronze as him and still struggling to get the flow of the button

[hardy parrot]

@sweet grove i believe is a bit busy lately so come by the sf_coaching channel for questions to start out. Jot's a great resource once he's around again though!

[sweet grove]

Hey all!

Sorry for the radio silence - summers are usually busy with a lot of work for me as a gigging musician so I haven't had a lot of downtime. This upcoming week is a lot slower so I'll have time to respond to those of you who have reached out to me, either through direct message or through a tag. Sorry about that - I'll respond to you soon!

[spare aspen]

Hey, I'm somewhat new to sf6 as well, despite owning the game since launch, I havent played much and only started playing more the past few weeks. I decided on Ken and somehow made my way into plat 1. Would love any help I can get forming a proper strategy and plan to stop getting bodied by friends(and in my ranked matches as well).

[woven valley]

in the abscence of Jot, I can take care of the players who wants to learn Ken

so either DM me with replay code or post them here

[spare aspen]

here are some of my losses, not sure if i should find some close wins too if that matters. V4RJ98DLY 8EXWRU9XC HLFVQV9KW

[woven valley]

I'll take a look at it asap

[spare aspen]

thanks!

[sweet grove]

Yeah so as @hardy parrot mentioned, it will 100% lose to 5f air invulnerable or 5f invulnerable moves

as for getting the J. HP to connect, yeah it's 100% a timing thing

but yeah like 99% of people don't know it's 41f lol

if they do, u can sacrifice damage from an OD adamant flame with B. HK xx Demon Flip xx Dive Kick ender to get a true 42f safe jump

[sweet grove]

ya for sure! if uve already been working with Zagreus I definitely recommend you continue as he has a great Ken but, I am also here for second opinions/more coaching if you need!

[sweet grove]

Yeah I can help 100%! What you are struggling with/what you are looking for help with?

[sweet grove]

Is there anything specific you want to address in your gameplay? If it's more general, I recommend you send 2 replays, 1 where you feel like things went according to plan, and 1 where everything went wrong.

[sweet grove]

ya for sure! if uve already been working with Zagreus I definitely recommend you continue as he has a great Ken but, I am also here for second opinions/more coaching if you need!

[sweet grove]

ya for sure! if uve already been working with Zagreus I definitely recommend you continue as he has a great Ken but, I am also here for second opinions/more coaching if you need!

[woven valley]

i'm starting the review

[woven valley]

Ok so after the three games you've sent I have noted several thing :

• You're focusing on the neutral/footsies which is a good point
• You need to spend some time in training mode to practice your confirm combo, you did a lot of partial combo without and ender
• When you hit midscreen on target combo, go for run up tatsumaki instead of shoryuken / hadoken, this will lead your opponent in the corner, where you want him to be.
• Normal shoryuken are not invincible on wakeup, if you want this "get of me" button, use the OD version
• You're using st.mk too much and a lot from an unsafe distance, you're opponent doesn't seems to know but on higher lvl you can be hard punish on this move.
• Your general gameplay, dumbly speaking, is to bring you opponent in the corner with TC run up tatsu, and then Ken is shining, grabs, jinrai, strike, you can mix the shit out of 'em

On the plus side :

• Good use of the jinrai kicks
• you have good reaction on random opponent DI
• Good AA for a platinum but try to be more consistant especially on zangief

• Youre spacing is good, minus the use of st.MK

on the video you can see the corner carry you gain plus after 2 dashes you have an auto time meaty/grab

and here, 2 meterless combo I like very much the first one is a safe jump combo : Target combo xx medium jinrai jump in
and the second one is a confirm for crouch light which is common : cr.lp cr.lp xx light tatsu medium shoryu

[spare aspen]

thanks for the quick response, do you have any practice drills u go for to practice combos? im able to do combos somewhat consistently in training mode by my head kinda goes blank whenever i land something in a match

[woven valley]

Practice and play I'd say

there is no real secret (at least for me)

even with drills my dumbass need to practice in real life situation

i'd say the first focus should be the target combo into run tatsu

[umbral plinth]

I want to play neutral and convert stray hits and punishes a little better. Also I’d really like to better learn the Akuma match up. I think 50% of my matches are against Akuma right now and that’s not an exaggeration

[sweet grove]

Awesome, we can totally work on those things! I won't be home til later but, to start it would be great if you could answer these questions:

How familiar are you with fighting game notations?

What do you know about frame data? What does frame data mean to you?

[spare aspen]

ill work on this. otherwise, between target combo xx medium jinrai safe jump or target combo into run dp, which one would you prioritize?

[umbral plinth]

Yes and yes. I'm more natural with st/cr and mp/hp vs keybaord notation, but both are fine. Frame data I understand and use. That online FAT tool is my hero. Any time I get wrecked by a move in ranked I'll go there and look at what move was kicking my ass to see how real/fake it is on hit and block

[woven valley]

There is no really prioritize, you have to mix them, run shoryu is more damage and can cancel into lvl3 (work on that too) and safe jump can lead to a punish counter, so it depends on the situation but in a full neutral state you can use one or another

If you see your opponent mashing a lot on wake-up you can use safejump more

[sweet grove]

This is great! That means we have a really great foundation to work with and we have the means to communicate to each other.

Next, I'd like for you to send 2 replays one where things went according to plan, and one where everything went wrong. Then, I'd like you to describe your gameplan as best as you can.

Then later tonight I will review it!

[umbral plinth]

Hmmm, okay I'll look through my matches and see what I can find. Do you want them as CFN replay codes or uploaded?

[sweet grove]

it would make my life easier if u upload but replay id works too!

either way i have to review it lter tonight

when i am back from work

[umbral plinth]

Okay. What do people upload to usually?

[sweet grove]

hrmmm i think youtube? whatever is easiest for you

[umbral plinth]

Okay I'll see what I can do

[sweet grove]

if u have nitro, it accepts larger video files too

[umbral plinth]

ah, no I don't have nitro

do people just straight record their matches with nvidia software(or whatever capture software)? a ft2 would take up like GBs then no?

[sweet grove]

probably like OBS or something ya

any screen capture

[umbral plinth]

kk sounds good. ill figure it out

[umbral plinth]

Sent both videos your way. I could do a little write up on what I see of the replays if you want as well, I'm definitely aware of some of my shortcomings

[main anvil]

a recommendation:
i do it with the Built in Nvidia tool, and my fav fast upload is "Streamable" you don't even need an account and can upload up to 250mb/10minute videos

[sweet grove]

I just realized I didn't respond to this! Yeah I can most definitely help you! Good place to start is to ask you a few preliminary questions:

How familiar are you with fighting game notations?

What do you know about frame data? What does frame data mean to you?

[warped thunder]

New to the discord and would love coaching for Ken, hovering around 1500-1550 MR. I think I have a little trouble structuring and maintaining my offense as Ken, as well as focusing too much on whiff punishes when I really should just play my game and adapt as I go. I find myself avoiding throwing fireballs because I'm afraid of jumps, neither do I go for reversals very often. Hope this paints a decent picture and let me know what you'd like from me, thanks! (edit: I've the other shotos at master but mostly hop between Luke and Ken, though I enjoy Ryu the most and Akuma the least)

[sweet grove]

Yeah for sure I can give you a second perspective! I should preface though, that my while I have reached 1700 with Ken the last 2 seasons, I'm really out of practice due to a break I took recently, and also due to the fact that when Akuma released I basically dropped Ken. That being said, while I can't execute as well as I used to, I definitely still remember my BnBs and my "flowchart" when I was playing Ken.

I think a good place to start is for you to send me 2 replays - 1 where you felt like everything went according to plan, and another where you felt like things went wrong. It would be great if you could give me a summary of your gameplan too.

[warped thunder]

Hey, thanks for the response! Would you like it with like a YT upload or would replay code be ok?

[sweet grove]

YT uploads are always welcome because it will make my life much easier but replay IDs are totally fine too

[finite goblet]

I'm somewhat familiar with the fighting game notations, my only problem is doing the input properly. Frame data I don't know much about, mainly I'm learning through what move is safe and unsafe on block

[sweet grove]

Cool! This gives me a good idea of where you're at

I think a good place to start if you're in bronze and still kind of figuring the game out

is to check the pinned messages of this thread

we want to formulate a baseline/gameplan

to work off of

the first pin you should see describes "4 dimensions" of fighting games

and we want to have tools to deal with each of them

the following pins will describe how we will approach each dimension

if you have any questions lmk

i recommend actually jumping to the comment within this thread

there should be a tiny "jump" button to the top right

of each pinned comment

[finite goblet]

sounds good, I'm currently doing anti-air training now. Is the down+hp is a better option for anti-air along with dp?

[sweet grove]

so generally speaking, if you can get good at using DP to anti air, that should be your go to

it has air invulnerability on frame 1, which means that you can't be hit by air moves the moment that the DP comes out

which allows you to react later

but it is also harder to execute, especially depending on what controller you use

so if you can't do that, or if you find it too hard

the alternative is Cr. HP

(still good)

but requires more timing

[finite goblet]

I'll keep that in mind

[sweet grove]

awesome, if you have any other questions about the pinned comments, or just any questions in general, don't hesitate to ask!

[stone tiger]

Thanks! Yes I already have 1 session with him and was great!!!

[warped thunder]

@sweet grove https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdgr0PqFZGM

i was mad struggling figuring out how to get these replays on YT, lost this one (first game) but managed to take the set 2-1. i would defs say that i had lucky interactions here, and had predictable jump-ins and dropped tons of combos but this was an ok game for me. i defs lost the neutral game imo.

[sweet grove]

Np! Thanks for uploading them onto Youtube, makes my life a lot easier haha.

Yeah so, I won't go over obvious things like dropping combos or missing counter hit confirms, which did a few times, I'm sure these are things that you are working on and I'm sure that you know the importance of fixing them because they can change the tide of battle.

I like that you have a very proactive approach to neutral! You seem to have a lot of intention behind your buttons so far:

• Fishing for counter hit with Run Kick and St. MK to get the St. LK confirm into shoryu
• Lots of raw DR and DRC
• Fishing for whiff punish with St. HK
• Some tight strings with jabs

Let's go into more game philosophy things and some considerations/second perspectives on the game state:

Round 1:

• at 0:41 seconds in the youtube clip, you have him in the corner and he's 1 hit away from death. While you did win this round, I would say it's a bit of a gamble wasting all your DR on one more guess. It could be argued that it's worth it becuase it's guess for game but, I think given he had so little HP left, you could have kept your drive gauge and just kept him in the corner. One hadouken, one stray normal hit, pretty much anything will kill and so, if you keep him in this uncomfortable situation in the corner where he has to guess so many things for game, he will eventually crack. In these situations, the main thing you want to look for is DI, Normal DRC, Raw DR, and Jump In. You can't look for all of them obviously but, you can make some educated guesses based off the MR/rank you're plyaing in and also what his tendencies have been so far. I personally don't have to use mental stack for jump because my anti-air DPs are automatic so, I instead look for RAW DR and Normal DRC, while letting my opponent get DIs through. Instead, to counter DI, I just focus on not using any DI unsafe moves. If they raw DR, you check it, if they normal DRC, you OD Shoryu/Drive reversal to be up on gauge and in this specific instance, you kill them if you OD Shoryu.

• at 1:11, you go for raw DR Cr. MK xx MK Jinrai. So normally, I'd say this is fine because DR Cr. MK isn't + oB and it's hard to hit confirm BUT, shortly after you do St. HP DRC and put yourself close to burnout. If you were going to do this anyways and you want the offensive pressure that bad, you might as well have just originally spent all your meter off the DR Cr. MK into a DRC, into corner carry.

• at 1:21, you went for Run Kick into delay sweep. I personally think this is a risk you don't really have to take here. If you mainly just want to cover yourself after minus frames, you can just delay jab instead. Instead, you get clipped by his Cr. MK and eat a DR combo. In situations where you are minus, definitely look for people to do Normal DRC as a response - most people want to get out of offensive pressure as soon as they can and flip it into their own offense. If you know when they are going to DRC, you can just OD Shoryu/Drive Reversal.

• at 2:06, you challenged with Cr. MK here - if you aren't already familiar with them, you should look into spacing traps. If you already know about them, he was definitely space trapping you here. He did jab and then looked to see if you would delay tech, then used the Cr. MP for the pushback on block to allow him to walk back out of your Cr. MK range. In cases where you think they are going to spacing trap you, you can try walking forward and THEN pressing Cr. MK, or challenging with a button that reaches further like St. HK or St. MK.

• In general in this last round, he is looking for you to whiff a button and trying to whiff punish you. Generally speaking, most people can't both look for the whiff punish AND check DR. It takes experience/time to get a read on what your opponent is looking for but, I definitely think this particular moment he was looking for whiff punish and so you should challenge with DR or forward dash.

Otherwise, a lot of what you're doing is fine

you took a few gambles guesses with parry/OD DP

but sometimes you have to guess

it's really just small things like drive gauge management and revolving your plays around it

but if you combine all these little things with tightening up your execution

makes a big difference

[rapid comet]

Was messing around in the lab discovered 5MP M Jinrai is frame trap. Is this real? is it actually useful?

[mystic sedge]

@sweet grove do you have some frame/spacing traps for akuma?

[sweet grove]

the main one i like to use is St .MP, Cr. LP, St. LK in the corner

on hit, it all combos

on block it frame traps from st. mp to cr. lp

and people are unlikely to press after cr. lp

and if they do you can always just adjust the string to catch them mashing

if they block the whole thing

you're out of range of cr. mk

but i revovle most of my corner pressure around safe jumps on akuma

[mystic sedge]

Hmm gotcha.

I'm trying to learn more whiff punishing. So I'm thinking of starting with some set ups

Where i can fish for the whiff, instead of trying on a more random situation

Like Jamie has a bunch

[sweet grove]

i think in neutral it's a bit difficult to get spacing traps since there's always the variable of you moving and your opponent moving but yeah, i personally only really know the one in the corner

[mystic sedge]

Yeah, that's why I'm trying to find stuff in the corner

[sweet grove]

i've watched automattock use a lot of adamant flame in neutral to catch people mashing jab and space trapping them that way

[mystic sedge]

One that's more of a frame trap rather than spacing is light strings b.HK OD hadou

If it hits you combo off the juggle.
If not still plus 2

Åh yeah. 3x jabs xx H adamant also frametraps

[sweet grove]

ooooooo i actually didn't know about the light string b.hk one

thank you for sharing that

[mystic sedge]

Yeah, it catches mashing and jumping out

Or, maybe not mashing but delay jab 🤔🤔

Need to lab it tomorrow to come with definitive answer. But it has been working

[sweet grove]

this is the route i was talking about earlier

in case you wanted to see it in action

[sweet grove]

good to know im gonna try that right now actually

but yeah i don't know too many other spacing traps

i have a few frame kill setups

that lead to some nice frame traps

[mystic sedge]

I'll practice this one! And fish for the crMKs.

Thanks!

[sweet grove]

no worries! thanks for sharing the other one too, i'm labbing it right now and i can see the potential

[sweet grove]

you mean a true blockstring right?

there's no gap between cr. mp and mk jinrai

[mystic sedge]

Yeah.
I also swapped to doing dash bHK OD hadou after throw instead of crHP hadou

[sweet grove]

and yes there is definitely utility in using true blockstrings

[mystic sedge]

Higher juggle does a bit more reward

[sweet grove]

oooo

this is smart

i've been doing Cr. MP TC xx OD Hado

but you're right B. HK gives way more damage

if it hits

[mystic sedge]

Yeah.
It's just a bit annoying to confirm the hadou to charge or not

[sweet grove]

Btw, just thought i'd show you a frame kill I use after I land that initial Cr. MP, Cr. LP, St. LK xx Shoryu frametrap/spacing trap

the Cr. MP becomes +1 oB after the frame kill

and meaty enough to link into Cr. HP on hit

and then +41 safe jump after

[mystic sedge]

Åh nice!
I have been compiling frame kills

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DqtiuqbK4eYxzLMQcfvR9OYxtuky7ZljvovBQIxs8yQ/edit

[sweet grove]

oooooooo

im looking at this rn

this is beautiful

[mystic sedge]

So, in that setup, you can do crMP framekill, bHK OD fireball

Or straight OD fireball

[sweet grove]

you're right, just tried it!

very cool

[mystic sedge]

H DP framekills are easier.
Tatsu are a mess, because the juggle height affects the KD

[sweet grove]

yeahhh i generally don't do tatsu knockdown

unless i absolutely need the damage

[rapid comet]

I have the computer setup to input a 5LP on block reversal. If I start a 5MP the jinrai is a counter hit.

If I do 2MP the Jab doesn’t come out.

[sweet grove]

yep

so basically, whenever you can link 2 moves together in such a way

that your opponent is in blockstun the entire time

meaning, there is no gap

we call that a true blockstring

a frame trap is when, there is still a gap

but it's so small that

there's nothing they could really input

that would come out before your move

other than something like OD DP

any kind of invincible reversal

so the utility in true blockstrings is exactly what you discovered

which is that there's no gap, meaning you can safely do it everytime

and not worry about them pressing

however in this particular blockstring you've found

Ken's Cr. MP has pretty short range

so if they block the whole thing, the light kick ender of jinrai is -5 oB

they will likely be in range to punish it

but that only matters if your opponent knows that

and knows how to punish it

you can also achieve the same thing with St. HP xx MK jinrai

but St. HP has longer range

both can have their uses

[rapid comet]

Thanks for the explanation. Very useful

[sweet grove]

np!

[mystic sedge]

So, it works for mash or delay?

[sweet grove]

which one?

[mystic sedge]

The lights on block, bHK

[sweet grove]

there's a big gap if you go from a light to B. HK but, I think if you do something like 2 lights -> B. HK, your opponent probalby isn't expecting you to do something fake in the middle of a light string so you could get away with it

i'll see if it loses to delay jab

yeah i think it loses to both mash and delay

cause the gap is about 10f or so

still good tho

cuz the reward is + frames oB

and big reward on hit

[mystic sedge]

Yeah!

[sweet grove]

To everyone in this thread and to any future readers, I'm taking a break from Street Fighter so it's likely that I won't get back to you about anything coaching related. Between coaching, grinding and playing in online/local tourneys, I'm completely burnt out. That being said, I'll still tie up any loose ends/provide feedback to anyone that previously has been waiting but, going forward please don't expect much coaching from me. I can't say for certain when I'll return but, I just need a break from the competitive sphere in general. Thank you!

[shadow swan]

thank you so much for everything you’ve done to the community Jot!

[main anvil]

You're one of the biggest coaches on this server, and in my heart the absolute #1.
You're the guy that guided my way into Street Fighter and fighting games, and helped me to enjoy this game with all my heart ❤️

Much love to you, and I hope you're doing well, I will continue to grind and make you proud when I hit master ❤️

[sweet grove]

sorry to jumpscare everyone with a necro but, just want to say im reviving this thread if anyone is looking for coaching

[clever wigeon]

My Ken is still in silver and mostly just use the target combo into DP. Would appreciate some coaching if you’ve got the time.

[woven valley]

If Jot is unavailable, I can take care of this

[sweet grove]

Ya I got you! Sorry was out of the house. To start, could you detail the moves/tools you use the most, and explain what you think your gameplan is?

Also try to explain to me what you think your weaknesses are and what you think you need coaching on.

And if you have any replay IDs or videos to share that would be helpful

@clever wigeon

[clever wigeon]

In neutral I try to use st.hp or cr.mk into mk.jinrai and light ender (i actually got this from the pins in this channel). I find this loses to DI so in these scenarios I would just cr.mk and wait to respond to DI. I tried to use TC into run tatsu or run dp but I struggle with the run dp input i just don’t find it natural.

I know with Ken the gameplan is to get them in the corner with run tatsu. But I’m not sure how to keep them there and what to do on oki. In midscreen I DR st.hp or grab on oki, but in the corner I’m not sure what to do.

For PC i simply do st.hp xx h.dp as I’m not sure what else combo I should be going for.

My weakness is definitely defence as when I get knocked or stuck in corner i find it hard to recover. And AA, I’m very inconsistent with DP for AA and rely on cr.hp instead.

I’m not home now but i can send some replays later today.

Another weakness is hit confirming, i find it hard to track and just spam the combos which gets me punished

[sweet grove]

I like a lot of what I'm seeing here! The first thing I noticed, is that you're paying attention to the weaknesses of your gameplan (jinrai being weak to DI) and trying to find solutions to mitigate/solve these weaknesses. Reflection and problem solving are essential skills you need at all levels of play in order to improve.

For PC combos, that is totally fine, keep it simple for now! In fact, depending on what I seen in your replay, I mostly want to simplify your gameplay to a few tools, while expanding on or keeping some of the tools you already use.

For defence, I think an important skill you can learn in the silver-plat range, is delay grab tech or delay grab OS. Have you heard of this before?

As for AA, specifically DP AA, I might have some tips for you depending on what kind of controller you use.

[sweet grove]

Yeah we can work on this too, we'll keep our hit confirms to really simple ones

But yeah this gives me an idea of how you think about the game and what you think you're doing

I'd like to confirm it through replays next

and then we'll take it from there

so you lmk when you're ready with the replays

[clever wigeon]

I just got home, I’ll share a few replays shortly.

[clever wigeon]

I got a ps5 edge controller. I map the back buttons to throw and run

[sweet grove]

ya np no rush

[sweet grove]

okay my tip for DP is mainly for leverless

not so sure about for pad

so unfortunately for anti air dps i dont have any real tips for u other than to practice it

anti air training

wait r u classic or modern

[clever wigeon]

Classic

Here are two replays against cammy.
D93SKLF4A
9DUP6A8MG

[gusty schooner]

Hey Jot, I could use a replay or two for review. I’m out at the moment but I’ll ping them across tomorrow

[sweet grove]

D93SKLF4A:

Round 1:

You go for a lot of Cr. MK here, which is good but, you end up commiting to hadouken/jinrai out of Cr. MK and the St. HP. This would normally be fine but, because this Cammy DIs a lot, you should try to poke with those buttons (Cr.MK, St. HP) without cancelling/commiting to anything, and instead focusing on being ready to counter DI. Or, don't even press buttons and wait for the DI to counter it.

Round 2:

More or less the same thing here, you're commiting too much to the jinrais when the Cammy gets away with DI. I really like the anti air attempt near the end of the round with Cr. HP, I think you just have to work on the timing.

If you are going to commit to Jinrai, I recommend doing it more from the St. HP, since it's a true blockstring. This means they can't mash DI between St. HP and the initial first hit of Medium Jinrai. They can only DI before the St. HP (lucky DI) or between the Jinrai and the ender. For the latter, as long as you end in the light kick ender, you'll always be able to counter DI back.

9DUP6A8MG:

Round 1:

Good hit confirm at 61 seeconds! Just need to practice the whole string so you convert properly. Nice anti air at 47 seconds too!

You adapted well here, opting more for the St. HP xx MK Jinrai, which is exactly what I mentioned for the previous replay. I think you just need to get in the habit of blocking low after the LK ender and observing what they do. This Cammy almost always sweeped (Cr. HK) after you finished your Jinrai and, if you didnt' know, you can punish almost all sweeps in this game with your own sweep (and eventually you can get better conversions too).

Round 2:

Second time I've seen you mess up your conversion after successfully landing a DI. That's okay, just gotta drill it more.

You commit to a lot of jinrais here and even from burnout. It's getting you smoked by DI.

Round 3:

Nice counter DI at 91 seconds and nice awareness to cash out to level 3!

Main takeaways:

Gotta anti-air a LOT more. Cammy probably jumped on you almost 20 times between both replays and, you maybe anti aired like twice. Her main strategy was jumping in on you to get pressure, and walking forward and pressing DI. If you notice your opponent plays like this you can't afford to commit to your BnB strings/pokes, and instead focus on anti-air and counter DI.

@clever wigeon

if you have any questions about any of this feedback or otherwise, don't hesitate to ask!

[clever wigeon]

Yeah i agree with you, my anti air is not the best and i need to drill it. I mostly get caught with DI when going the crMK route, I’ll try using stHP route more.

In terms of bnbs I’ve been using, do you suggest any changes or should i stick to what I’ve been doing?

[sweet grove]

In terms of BnBs, I think what you're doing is already fine. I didn't see many hadoukens but, in a match where your opponent only jumps you don't want to throw many fireballs anyways. I think you could afford to use more dragonlash, so that you can force a situation where you're + but, other than that, I like the tools you're using. Just need to drilll them more and don't commit to jinrai too much in neutral so you can counter DI

[clever wigeon]

OK thanks!

[arctic umbra]

Hey @sweet grove, nice to meet you man, I just got diamond, so the journey to master is getting closer, but one thing that I feel that I struggle a lot is against Juri's strings and Ryu's cross-ups. Do you have any advice to deal with them consistently?

[sweet grove]

Hrm, for Juri it really depends but, it could help to try to identify her main blockstrings/frametraps

for Ryu, I'm not too sure what you mean

his crossups shouldn't be much different from any other "standard" character's crossups

unless you have a specific example

[arctic umbra]

Ah yes, I mean because Ryu players are the ones that goes for cross-ups all the time

[sweet grove]

yeah this will really depend on the player and recognizing their habits for when they decide to go for a crossup

[arctic umbra]

It's not that I'm not good at anti-airs, is just that I kinda panic when people keep jumping around me

[sweet grove]

but for me personally, i have decent crosscuts so it's usually not a problem for me if they go for too many crossups

ah okay if you struggle with anti air dp then crosscuts might be out of the picture

if they are going for multiple crossups in a row you kind of have to actively be looking for that

you can walk under

then punish their landing

[arctic umbra]

I usually get good anti-air when people jump straight to me, or they do a dive kick. But sometimes I got in the corner and they neutral jump or in the middle of the screen they keep jumping around me .-.

[sweet grove]

yeah it's really just about recognizing when they decide to go for it

and maybe trying to mitigate their chances to go for crossups

as in, maintain spacings in which you have favourable anti airs

and you maintain that spacing by threatening with buttons

and taking up that space

[arctic umbra]

Ok, gonna try that, thanks 😄

[sweet grove]

👍

but if you come across this

send the replay

and i can be more specific

[arctic umbra]

I found one from today about the cross-ups: QBNFL3VDK, I feel dumb when this happens

[arctic umbra]

Thanks a lot man, I'm gonna work on this ASAP

[sweet grove]

👍

[small harbor]

Anyone fancy a ft10 tonight and giving me some pointers on my Ken to help me improve? Id like to take him to 1600mr but don't play him too much, and what I learnt about him I quickly forget when I pick up a new character.

[clever wigeon]

@sweet grove hey Jot, an update on my progress, I’ve just made it to Gold! Just wanted to let you know what you’ve shared with me has been helpful!

[sweet grove]

let's goooo

congrats man

if you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask

[sweet grove]

i'd be down at some time tomorrow if you're around

I'm available before 2pm EST and after 9pm EST

[small harbor]

Thanks for the reply, that would be really great. I'm going to Cyprus for two weeks on holiday tomorrow so have to pack tonight, but would be really appreciative of some help, could we do some sets when I get back? I'm in the UK, so hopefully lag woulnt be too bad?

[sweet grove]

ya man u lmk when ur back ill be here

[pallid bobcat]

Hey, sorry if this has been asked somewhere already but I have an input related question. im trying to do run cancel dragonlash but instead its just giving me the heavy kick cancel. am I inputting it too slow or fast? appreciate the help <3

[woven valley]

you're missing the ↘️ part 🙂

[pallid bobcat]

Ahhh I see. thank you :D

[sweet grove]

1700 Ken/Akuma/Ryu Player Offering Coaching

[hardy parrot]

Shoto player might be shorter LOL

[sweet grove]

oh true LOL

but I don't play Luke or Terry

maybe now I have to, so I can say I'm the hardstuck 1700 shoto main

[gusty schooner]

Me asking for coaching

https://tenor.com/view/hasbulla-hasbulla-nono-hasbulla-hesitate-hasbulla-no-thanks-gif-2097128249366006794

[sweet grove]

ya i got u man what's up

[gusty schooner]

I feel like my neutral and corner pressure is pretty mid. I do hear and get told a lot that st.hp and f.hp are goated moves but i think i probably have some spacing issues and stuff etc...

I know i press a lot on - which is something i'm trying to do less, as i'm trying to steal turns back

i also feel like i have ZERO spacing traps but i constantly get caught by them xD

[sweet grove]

okay, can u send a replay where u feel like u struggled with these things

and can u describe to me what your general gameplan is

and what tools/bnbs u use the most

[gusty schooner]

Yeah bare with, i played a really long set with a friend the other day so my whole entire match history for replays are all lobby matches so need to have a look through them

Replay ID: XB9HFT4KX & 3PAGBULGY

[sweet grove]

and can u describe to me what your general gameplan is
and what tools/bnbs u use the most

[gusty schooner]

Yeah i would say i try to use fmk and fireball to control space and play neutral

I'm trying to use fhp and sthp more but i really need to work on my spacing on it

and buffer behind it with fireball and confirm into drive rush for some corner carry

I probably overuse DR MP, MP target combo into OD FB for +2 or knockdown and follow up with a demon flip for OKI

i don't really work too much on my strike throw i think as i seem in these replays to be doing quite the same flowchart in most now watching it back

and then in the corner i go for st.hp and try to confirm into adamant for big damage and end with htatsu for oki and meaty or throw loop

I also feel like i just crack under pressure in the corner and really need to work on my defense

[sweet grove]

Round 1:

93 seconds, nice awareness to punish the quick burn but, you did not have to spend 2 bars here for OD hadouken, should have done a meterless punish. This is more of a hindsight thing but, it could be an insight into how you manage your meter - you may need to pay more attention to your resources. You nearly put yourself in burnout here.

69 seconds, your friend uses Cr. MK DRC to put himself into burnout here. So far he's 2/2 cancelling Cr. MK into DRC so, this is something you should begin to look out for. OD DP OS and Drive Reversal will allow you to get him off you and to win a meter exchange.

61 seconds, again, you didn't have to spend 3 meters, nearly putting yourself in burnout, to extend your pressure from St. HP. He's in burnout so I think a more patient approach would have been better here.

Overall, nothing too egregious IMO but, definitely an over reliance on setplay/neutral skips in the form of demonflip, air fireball, light fireball followed by drive rush. i think playing a more grounded game would help you a lot here as well as getting to know the ranges of your buttons better.

Round 2:

Nothing particularly bad about this round either. I think you just need to have more intention with your buttons. You use a lot of St. HP, F. HP, F. MK and fireballs to take up space, but it doesn't really accomplish much especially if you aren't converting into DRC for pressure (which you shouldn't overuse but need to threaten with). I think after you take up space with a button, you need to observe more how your opponent reacts - do they immediately try to take their turn back? Do they walk forward? Do they jump? Do they drive rush? In a lot of instances, I think your friend is eager to take that space back with big buttons and you need to be ready to whiff punish.

[sweet grove]

run me through all the defensive options you use

[gusty schooner]

Block, delay tech (probably this one too much), crlp when i think i the string isn't true, demon flip to escape the corner

[sweet grove]

okay i think we have to expand this. i'm in a similar boat to you where i default a lot to the same defensive options but, there are so many more to try

delay jump forward, block a button then jump forward to get out of the corner

kinda like delay tech but with forward jump

beats tick throw

and shimmy sometimes

delay jab, beats shimmy and meaty

more perfect parry attempts (although arguably worse of an option now that you need to guess high or low)

drive reversal

[gusty schooner]

Gotcha

yeah i feel like i probably auto pilot a lot tbh

[gusty schooner]

Yeah that makes sense for sure

[sweet grove]

ya and that's normal, part of getting good at this game is developping muscle memory so that you can autopilot

but u have to be a bit more active in the match thinking about what your opponent is doing

it's a thin line and i struggle with it too

but the more you can catalogue information about your opponent's habits

the more you can make informed decisions

also, i saw very little raw drive rush if none

you need to sprinkle these in

raw drive rush into jab

reaction check and keep your opponent on his toes

[gusty schooner]

yeah probably none to be honest haha, i need to do the instant drive rush more and practice that

as my drive rush in neutral is often telegraphed by me doing the slower version

[sweet grove]

yeah u get it, just another tool to add to your repertoire

getting higher in master is just about rounding out all aspects of your gameplay

each optimization you make, might be small by itself but, the sum of those things makes a difference

so optimizing your toolset (using more tools)

and more active thinking about what your opponent is doing

if you have any questions about any of this lmk

[gusty schooner]

Thanks Jot! i'll put this into practice, appreciate your time

[sweet grove]

[limber basin]

could someone here help me out reviewing a replay real quick? I play akuma and am lower plat rn

[gusty schooner]

I can try and help if Jots asleep right now but I don’t have access to the game so would need to be an upload

@limber basin

[limber basin]

yeah tyt im askin since

i wrote it in coaching but nobody answered

9LKDMS4TQ

my main issue are the 2 close-up jumps they did that crossed me up, idk how to react to stuff like that

[gusty schooner]

You have the ability to upload the replay, sorry not at my computer right now so can’t check until much later

If it’s an upload here I can look now

[gusty schooner]

In short though, you can do a few options here:

block
crosscut DP which is kinda hard
Jump back lp

[limber basin]

cant rn sorry

[limber basin]

might try jumpback lp

[gusty schooner]

Good thing about jump back light punch is in the corner it also lets you keep the corner

If I’m cornered I’ll take a crosscut dp to the face to escape the corner any day

But the jump back light punch can be a real nuisance

[sweet grove]

i could take a look if u want

but pretty much what rusty said

when it comes to opponents jumping out of the corner

[limber basin]

oh it wasn't

in the corner

[sweet grove]

oh so just like midscreen

[limber basin]

yeah

i'm not afraid of normal jumpins, maybe i'm not perfect but im practicing and improving

[sweet grove]

yeah crossups are tricky, it really depends on what you were doing when they jumped and the spacing they chose to jump at

there will be some ranges where, u just have to hold the crossup

i probably don't have the best advice for crossups, because I do crosscut

[limber basin]

they were plat so in all likelyhood

[sweet grove]

and that's my only answer

[limber basin]

it shouldn't be that hard......

[sweet grove]

i'll watch the replay though

i think generally speaking, you should be controlling space

in such a way that they can't cross you up

[limber basin]

i'd practice those but i feel like i shouldn't since i haven't mastered AAs for my skill level

[sweet grove]

ya if ur struggling with regular anti airs

[limber basin]

yeah not sure if i was doing that

[sweet grove]

don't work on crosscuts for now

[limber basin]

mhm rn i'm working on the strive reps for AAs and DIs, plus

[sweet grove]

i'm watching your replay right now, right off the bat, great anti air

on the dive kick

[limber basin]

doing a training where i make the dummy do jHP on block in the corner, and try to proc that with fireballs

then throw a second one and AA them

[limber basin]

yeah i feel like those shallow jumpins made me tilt because otherwise idk

[sweet grove]

this is a really shallow example but, basically, you're getting crossed up because you allow cammy to walk up on you

and then she jumps from a much closer range

allowing her to go over you

if you take up space with buttons

she can't walk up for free

ideally you use buttons that are DI cancellable

so like St. HP

Cr. MK

but F. MK is a good button too

cause it reaches far

and by maintaining that space

you'll always be in range to dp anti air

yeah just finished the 2nd round too

u just need to be more active in neutral

ur doing a lot of waiting

and holding down back

don't let her walk up for free

if u find urself reacting late to her walking up on you and she closes the distance

use faster buttons

st. lk

cr. mp

if u have any other questions @limber basin lmk

but this is the #1 takeaway from this replay

[limber basin]

i appreciate the help but my reactions aren't that good 😭 , i can try 5HP and such tho

[sweet grove]

wym reactions

[limber basin]

yeah i gotta get used to use that button more, it makes me afraid of DI but hm

[sweet grove]

i'm talking about using those buttons to control that space

[limber basin]

canceling 2MK into DI on reaction

[sweet grove]

OH

well it's still better to throw out a cancellable normal than one that you can't cancel

so that you can take up space and still have the chance to counter DI

[limber basin]

i think i was trying to observe them and see their patterns, it's something i wanna get better at lately since it's a thing thats holding me back

[sweet grove]

that's fine

but i think after like

3 instances of her walking up and crossing you up

[limber basin]

nah thats useful, i am prone to get walked down ngl

[sweet grove]

u can safely assume that's how they play

at least on the first layer

of their strategy

if they even have more layers

so you start by countering that first layer

[limber basin]

hmmm gotcha, i'll try to use them more so at the very least i get used to the spacing

[limber basin]

yeah for now i think

reading their first layer is what i need

when they jump, when they DI, etc

[sweet grove]

👍

if u have any other questions don't hesitate to ask

[shadow swan]

Jot are you back

[sweet grove]

yessir!

at least for now

[shadow swan]

i'll defo send some vods here sometimes i went from aki to ken

[sweet grove]

I'm so sorry I have to admit that I don't quite remember your name

But yes feel free to drop vods!

[shadow swan]

oh i dont think we interacted much tbh, i just lurked here a lot

actual tag is Barca

[sweet grove]

OH

okay I didn't realize it was you Barca haha

wait ur giving up the Aki?

aren't you a 1700 beast on AKI

[shadow swan]

ye but i switched to ken

i really don’t like her playstyle and i wanna play shotos

[sweet grove]

dammmn okok

still Ken tho, even after the nerfs?

[shadow swan]

ye ofc

i love ken

and i don’t mind the nerfs at all

better i like it more rn with the drive gauge play on lvl2

sthp ex jinrai lvl2 is 2.3 bars of drive

amazing tool to force burnout

[sweet grove]

that's true

and it's really just the jinrai loop that got nerfed

and throw loop

[shadow swan]

ye but imo throw loop is still a bit of a question mark

they haven’t really said which one of the 2 is gonna be his definitive one

but i’ve seen angrybird started doing dash oki on throws even tho it’s technically fake

[sweet grove]

yeah it's just harder to execute and for some reason esp if they backroll

even tho it should be the same??

[shadow swan]

afaik only cammy had this same thing on a divekick setup and it got patched

[shadow swan]

on backroll it’s a 1f window

[sweet grove]

omg lol

that's brutal

[shadow swan]

ye very

but in my head the actual one is the quickrise

cause the backroll thing is weird

[hardy parrot]

ye the 1f window is extremely brutal

honestly tho i've gotten mileage off people knowing its 1f and mashing 4f, and i go for st.hp

[shadow swan]

oh ye me too

people are mashing hard on ken corner now lmao

[sweet grove]

i gotta say the counterhit knockdown on jinrai low ender feels nice to face

i honestly don't mind getting knocked down

as opposed to him getting a conversion

[shadow swan]

ye he lost like 1200 damage if you mash on jinrai

which yes it’s big but the oki on that kd is pretty good afaik

[sweet grove]

yeah that's true but, i get an opportunity to guess again instead of just him converting to the corner or something

[shadow swan]

yeah true

it’s surely a nerf but imo ken is still extremely fine

final judgement will probably be if tokido sticks lol

[hardy parrot]

akuma got nerfed harder so i think he'll stick

[shadow swan]

ye but there’s always the ryu angle

[sweet grove]

THIS IS THE WAY

JOIN US

[shadow swan]

no i can’t play ryu

i hate command normal so much

and he has a bHP one too

also sorry but ken is way cooler

[sweet grove]

waaaaaaaaaat

they're both homeless bums

[gusty schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/akuma-sf6-gif-1682706543702075673

[sweet grove]

but Ryu is from glorious nippon

[sweet grove]

ya akuma is still coolest for me

but my frame kills got nerfed

so i can't do it anymore

LOL

[gusty schooner]

Legit with how good Ryu is... i legit don't think Akuma should be 9000 health anymore

put my boy to 9500 at least

[shadow swan]

akuma’s also cool af

i just don’t like ryu much tbh

[sweet grove]

ya that's fair

u gotta vibe with the character too

honestly the only reason i switched is cuz a friend convinced me that my playstyle would fit ryu better

i feel like i don't play akuma to his strengths

but i 100% like akuma better

in terms of aesthetic

[gusty schooner]

just a general question quick, if i'm walking forward, release forward and press parry+forward, will i get instant DR?

[sweet grove]

uhhhhhhhhhh good question i don't actually even know

ud proably have to test it

[gusty schooner]

yeah i'll see quickly

[shadow swan]

i don’t think so tbh

[gusty schooner]

nah you dont 😦

[sweet grove]

ya i feel like if it could work that way

so many people would get accidental DR

y do u ask? r u struggling with DR input?

[shadow swan]

also you’d get 17 million accidental dashes

[gusty schooner]

Nah not massively, just trying to put more into my game plan like we discussed the other day

[sweet grove]

what do u play on again

pad

leverless

stick

[gusty schooner]

leverless sadly 😦

[shadow swan]

also jot have you actually understood if ken jab changes make a difference with his dr jab

[sweet grove]

sadly??

leverless is the GOAT

[sweet grove]

you mean from a DRC?

the shimmy thing?

[shadow swan]

no i mean raw

like the patch says that his jab has more momentum

[sweet grove]

honestly no clue either

[shadow swan]

it in practice outside of the crmk dr thing does it change something

[sweet grove]

ya i only briefly tested it out of curiosity

and i didn't personally see any differences

[shadow swan]

ok nice

[sweet grove]

i personally like to piano the double dash input

like a quick double tap using my index and middle finger

[shadow swan]

i’m kinda studying dr jab on ken rn

[shadow swan]

i play on leverless without socd lmao

too lazy to learn it

[sweet grove]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

yo SOCD is like a hack tho

it's so OP

[shadow swan]

ye i really wanna learn socd dp especially

[sweet grove]

if u find anything interesting lmk

i'm assuming you know the input for SOCD DP already

[shadow swan]

yeye the one with up

[sweet grove]

okay yeah that one is so GOATed IMO

big recommend

[gusty schooner]

I think leverless is really good

but legit it's quite boring to play on

[shadow swan]

ye that shit is like 4f dp

[gusty schooner]

for me

i don't use SOCD either

[sweet grove]

i'm 100% biased but

i think SOCD is way too good not to do if you play leverless

like i'm so carried by it

[gusty schooner]

I don't even know them haha

[sweet grove]

nobody normal jumps on me

[gusty schooner]

i know the DP one kinda

hold down and just press the direction twice

[sweet grove]

that's one of them

the one we're talking about is

you sorta plink forward + down

[shadow swan]

i gotta learn it but it’s so hard to change muscle memory

[sweet grove]

and you hold both of them down

after pressing them

so forward + down quickly in succession, and holding them

followed by up + punch

it's just a really ergonomic input

feels like 1 fluid motion

and u can be in the middle of anythhing

and the moment you see a jump

you stop waht your'e doing

[gusty schooner]

Sorry i don't get that isn't that just the normal dp input?

[sweet grove]

and input that

[gusty schooner]

ow wait

up input

wtf

[sweet grove]

no cuz normal DP is forward down forward

ya

the up and the down cancel out

so what you get is another forward input

forward + down (plinked, and held down)

then because you're holding down both forward and down

when you input up + punch

up and down cancel out

so you just get forward + punch

and you use your right thumb to input punch

so that you separete the forward + down, and the up + punch

between your 2 hands

and it just feels really fluid and natural

[sweet grove]

ya that's fair

and honestly in matchups where they have ways to mix up their aerial approach

my muscle memory with SOCD DPs sometimes fucks me over

and i have to make an active effort not to do it

[gusty schooner]

Damn i can't get this to work in my head

[shadow swan]

ye but it makes cammy mu so much easier

like rn i’m doing angrybird tech against cammy

[sweet grove]

what's the tech?

and honestly, i fkin hate cammy LOL

[shadow swan]

which is omega delay do against her jumps

[sweet grove]

i have to 100% poor my entire being

[shadow swan]

so you block her dives and antiair the jumps

[sweet grove]

in order to react and anti air her dive kick

[shadow swan]

that’s what he does

[sweet grove]

wait

mega delay dp

so you like

input block

then delay DP afterwards?

[shadow swan]

ye you just dp very late

[sweet grove]

and you block the divekick but anti air the regular jump?

[shadow swan]

yes

[gusty schooner]

is this it?

[shadow swan]

it’s not easy to do

[sweet grove]

i feel like this loses to her baiting it out though

[shadow swan]

it does

[sweet grove]

with a fake dive kick

[shadow swan]

it’s not the best

[sweet grove]

yeah fk that character man

[shadow swan]

ye i hate her

[sweet grove]

lmao

permanent +1 mental stack

[shadow swan]

surely better on ken than on aki tho lmao

[sweet grove]

wait

what happens when you

input up + down

on your leverless

[gusty schooner]

N

[sweet grove]

okay so you must have just done it wrong

here one sec

[shadow swan]

you hold everything down rusty

[sweet grove]

plink this

and HOLD

both

you don't let go

[shadow swan]

it’s forward (hold) down (hold) up+punch

[gusty schooner]

what is plink?

like roll my hands

[sweet grove]

like

one after the other

really quick

like as quick as you can

almost simultaneous

but one after the other

[sweet grove]

at least if you want the fastest DP input

ya

then

while ur holding that

right after you input it

and hold it

you do up + punch

[gusty schooner]

?

[sweet grove]

i'm trying to remember what the input looks like when i do it

[shadow swan]

try doing it slowly to get the grasp of it

[sweet grove]

i don't think there should be a neutral in there

[shadow swan]

like press forward and hold it down

and never let it go until end of the dp

press down and never let it go till the end of the dp

and same thing with up and punch

you can just hold everything down until the dp is done

[shadow swan]

trust you’ll get a dp doing this

yeah

[sweet grove]

yes

[shadow swan]

that s a dp

[sweet grove]

and do it fast af

[shadow swan]

you can get semi constant 3f dps with this

which is CRAZY

[sweet grove]

once u go down this road tho

if u decide to learn a character without dp

it will be such a growing pain

to undo

[gusty schooner]

NAHHHH

this is fucking EASY on p2 for me

[shadow swan]

you saw how good this is

[gusty schooner]

wtfffff