1700 Ken/Akuma/Ryu Player Offering Coaching

[main anvil]

Akuma also looks really dope, if i just abandon ken for him, will you teach me also in akuma? :DD

[main anvil]

and to keep you up to date with my own training-planning.
I will update the Training Circuits to include the safe jump (also Neutral to Corner hp xx dr xx etc. to safe jump loop)and i will figure something out for the wakeup if I'm in that situation.

Today I will also go through the circuits for the first time properly. And if it gets too easy i will just put it for myself on a time trial and try to beat that time 😄

My inputs got a bit sloppy and more mash-y, so it's quite necessary right now.

Also, i will keep an eye on the frame meter for the meaties :)))

I also started to do some stupid shit for some reason, so i really have to readjust myself to the gameplan 😄
Idk why but i started doing the first combos i learned again, like cr lp, st lp, st lp, h shoryuken

[sweet grove]

honestly, you wouldn't even want me to teach you akuma when he drops cuz it takes me awhile to learn/lab new characters lmao

but at some point if i get proficiennt ya id be down

but i think for your own learning, it might be good to stick with Ken until you hit a proficient level

and use him to teach you the fundamentals of this game

which you're doing quite well

also, there's nothing wrong with that combo you talked about

it's good to mix in light combos when you can

it's just that it's hard to use it as a meaty since it doesn't have a lot of active frames

so you need to have precise timing

the best application of that string is to use it after heavy dragonlash

i think the next thing you should understand is that heavy dragonlash is +1 on block

which means that anything you do will come out 1 frame before your opponent

so if you use a 5f move, like st. mp it will trade if your opponent presses a 4f move (like a st. lp)

so the best thing to do in that scenario is usually to do a jab string, like the one you mentioned, since you'll be +1 and your 4f jab will instead come out in 3f, meaning there's nothing faster that your opponent could press to beat it

also, you should know that if you do any jinrai and end it with the low attack (the one where he kicks their shin), it's -5 on block

so if they block the whole thing, you're at a disadvantage and i wouldn't continue pressing buttons

[main anvil]

funny enough, i just thought about that 😄

[warm shoal]

Hello! Im seeking for some Ken/sf-essentials coaching. This is the only FG I have played. Right now I'm plat 5 and I feel I have reach a hardstuck. I see other kens online doing stuff y just cant do and I also feel like my basics are really underdevelopment. More than just winning games, I want to learn how to practice in the lab effectively.

I'm prone to drop medium-long jinrai combos, so I just go with the safest options. But also get really crushed in footsies and wiff punishes.
My CFN for checking my rematchs is: Kanin Dani

[sweet grove]

Ya for sure we can definitely talk some fundamentals and labbing scenarios.

I think the best place to start is with a replay review: please find 2 replays and send me their replay IDs. One of them should represent what your ideal gameplay/gameplan looks like. The other replay should be one where you struggled to employ your gameplan; one where you felt like you were "crushed in footsies and whiff punishes".

[warm shoal]

Thanks Jot! I will dm you soon as possible!

[main anvil]

@sweet grove what kinda Controller u play with?
I have a 16 Button leverless and thinking about rebinding the top button on the right half (not using that one currently) and/or the bottom right one.

Like moving throw to one of them and just use throw and jump with my right thumb

[sweet grove]

mine is custom

[main anvil]

I'm currently just thinking if I can utilize some buttons a bit more/better

[sweet grove]

i only have a di and parry button

i just do manual grab (lp + lk)

[main anvil]

That's an interesting pad, what to you have on all the extra buttons and far right?

[sweet grove]

i just made sure to use all the buttons i could with the zero fighting pi board but, essentially the 2 rows of 3 white buttons are my normals

light, medium and heavy kicks and punches

i bound parry to the top right, 4th white button

and bottom right 4th white button is empty

i have di bound to the white button where my left thumb would go

and the white button where my left pinky would go is empty

just additional options if i want to rebind at some point

[main anvil]

And the top white bottons on the left?

[sweet grove]

start select

[main anvil]

Ahh

[sweet grove]

ya i specifically wanted this layout because i like jump with my right thumb

and i customized the button layout for my hands

to feel comfortable/ergonomic

[main anvil]

I went with a 16 button just so I have a button for each thumb, and just for more options 😄

[sweet grove]

ya thats good, i dont like traditional hitbox layout

too cramed

cramped*

and not enough options

[main anvil]

Did you get the custom pad for SF6 or another fighting game?

[sweet grove]

specifically for sf6 but, now that i have it ive used it for other games too, including ones that arent fighting games

i was previously a keyboard player in sfv

and before that fightstick for sfiv

ya idk what the norm is but, if u like doing hitbox socd inputs like the one for dp

i prefer right thumb for jump

otherwise the rest of the binds are more preference

[main anvil]

Which non fighting game is good to play with a hitbox? 😄

Although, some rogue likes come to mind

[sweet grove]

ive tried maplestory, dead cells, blaz blue entropy, tevi

all work pretty well

and really fun

[main anvil]

I think using right thumb to jump just takes me out of keyboard autopilot

Oh yeah, dead cells is a good idea

[sweet grove]

ya any 2d kinda game

super fun

and with steam controller configs

u can make layers for your bindings

to allow for more flexibility

[main anvil]

True, will try it sometime

[main anvil]

btw, 7540lp, silver 4, should be above my Modern peak :)))

[main anvil]

T78YWKMJB

@sweet grove Would be curious about feedback, have no idea what i was supposed to do lmao

maybe a modern luke is just too fast lmao

[sweet grove]

whooo lets go!

ill take a look at this replay

[main anvil]

Oh, update, 8050 😄
Started today with 6200 I think

[sweet grove]

this was really a treat to watch @main anvil

I can really see the fruits of your labour in this replay

and how you're using all the tools we talked about

one sec, i'm writing detailed notes now

[main anvil]

Little correction, 8230, so yeah, about 2k today 😄

Also, here is another treat 😄 for you

The fruits of our labor!

• my fav punish-comeback of the day lmao

Sorry for the Vid Spam while you're giving feedback 😄

I'm stepping away from the pc now, so i will read the feedback later and properly integrate and answer it tomorrow :))

[sweet grove]

I really like how after you got hit once Luke's cr.mk > st. hp target combo the first time (round 1), you had a feeling it was minus and so, you blocked it and then punished it with st. lp, st. lp xx shoryuken. Do this more! If you ever feel like your opponent is doing something unsafe on block or minus on block, challenge with your fastest normal attacks (like st. lp and cr. lp). Make sure however, that you are confirming the light attacks into shoryuken! If this is too hard, what I do is actually commit to a special cancel without really confirming - st. lp, st. lp xx light jinrai. Most people let you get away with this because they don't actually know that light jinrai is punishable after the first hit.

One thing you could takeaway from this match as "Luke matchup knowledge" is Luke's st. lp target combo - it's st.lp > st.mp > st. hp. While st. lp is safe on block, it gets progressively more unsafe on block as he commits to this target combo and so, what a lot of Luke players will do is they will either try to confirm the first 2 hits, and if they get blocked, they will finish the entire target combo then cancel it into sand blast. However, in the case of this particular Luke player, he was ending his target combo at st. mp, which is actually punishable.

I really like how you've started adding heavy dragonlash to your gameplay and following it up with st. lp, st. lp xx shoryu! This is so awesome 🙂 However, let's really make sure we are actually hit confirming it! H. Dlash usually puts you at point blank range and so, you can usually do 3 lights as opposed to 2. Next time you do HLash, try doing cr.lp, cr.lp st.lp xx shoryu instead - this gives you 3 light attacks to hit confirm! This will really improve your gameplay because, you followed through with shoryuken a few times on block (at least 2) which gave him a free punish for lots of damage.

Round 3, GREAT pressure with st. mp target combo xx jinrai! If your opponennt doesn't show you they know how to deal with it, keep going! That was awesome! Just remember though, if they block the final hit, you're minus so, it's a good idea to end your pressure there!

Another thing you could add/modify to your gameplay to level up is to change your follow up attack after a DR. So up until now, we discussed following a fireball with DR xx St. HP right? Or to just do that in neutral and to follow it up with st. mp target combo. However, there will be instances where you're a little to far away from them for st. mp target combo to connect. What you could try doing is identifying whether or not you are too far for it to connect, and instead following up your DR xx St. HP with Cr. MK xx medium jinrai.

Otherwise, this is great stuff! You played this well! Only other thing I would say to work on is maybe more anti air practice!

[sweet grove]

np at all, take your time and go at your pace, there is no rush

[main anvil]

The Cr Mk xx med jinrai is a good idea, because sometimes i had the thing that HP connected, but next attack was a bit too far away, i'll integrate it tomorrow into the Fireball dr :))

and much appreciated coach ❤️

Other stuff will be looked at when I'm playing next time

[main anvil]

And the cut is just the cherry on top

Btw, sometimes when I have someone who only blocks but doesn't spam DI I sometimes go with Med Jinrai, Med follow up for the overhead mixup, and then into target combo lmao

[sweet grove]

yes! if they are just holding down back

overhead is good idea

you can also just stop after the first hit of jinrai

and walk up and grab

[main anvil]

Ohhh, that's good

I'll have to put these in my notes
Because if someone is good at blocking the combo a few times they figure me out, it's a good way to. Keep them on their toes 😄

[sweet grove]

yep! good introspection and reflection

those are the kind of questions you want to ask as you improve

you start with simple tools

and as you start to improve with them

you ask why they aren't working sometimes

and how you can modify it

to get better

and then you add more

eventually, you can even stop at the first hit of jinrai, walk up to pretend to grab

but then walk back (shimmy)

bait out the grab

and punish

[main anvil]

I mean, today is a good example how the progress lately went 😄

I think I also had 2 or 3, 4-5 win streaks today
I don't even wanna know how many matches I played 😂

[main anvil]

That's like the big brain stuff 😄 I think this will be necessary sometime beyond Gold/Plat or smthing 😄

[sweet grove]

yep! and i'll be here to answer your questions about that when we cross that bridge

but for now, good shit man

ur climbing

[main anvil]

Much appreciated 🙂 the additional ways to deal with the Dr xx hp, will be fun 😄 I will also keep an eye on hitconfirms, and then I'll climb further in no time :))

[main anvil]

"st. mp target combo xx jinrai! If your opponennt doesn't show you they know how to deal with it, keep going! That was awesome! Just remember though, if they block the final hit, you're minus so, it's a good idea to end your pressure there!"

Does that mean i'm plus when i stop after first Med-Jinrai?

This is right now my focus points.
Got anything to add/correct that i'm missing right now? @sweet grove

[main anvil]

thats def a new one

[sweet grove]

So, the whole philosophy behind jinrai is that it's kind of like a mixup tool

generally speaking, most attacks (normals, specials, etc) are + on hit

meaning that if they land (not blocked) they will leave you advantageous

and in some cases they are + enough that you can string them together (this is how we get combos)

so if the first hit of jinrai connects it leaves you + but it also cancels into the the low ender to get a true combo

if the first hit is blocked but the ender isnt,

it leaves you +, but not + enough that you can combo afterwards

but since it leaves you + it means ur in an advantageous position to keep pressuring (keep pressing)

so if your opponent doesnt attempt to DI, block or parry

and keeps getting hit by jinrai

then just keep doing it

now on block, even if they block the first hit of jinrai, the low ender is a "frame trap"

meaning they cant press anything fast enough to beat it

so i would keep spamming the low ender until they show you that they know how to defend against it

hope that makes sense and clarifies

[sweet grove]

yeah looks good!

also idk what the screenshot is supposed to be

[sweet grove]

unless u just mean double perfect

[main anvil]

Yeeeess

[main anvil]

Yeee, that makes sense!

[cursive wren]

I think I did less of the unsafe stuff than normal, at least not so many heavy kicks and shoyus that wiff
but I feel like if they hadnt tried to zone and wait so much I would have lost
V6MFF35C6, HYTSHCN95

[sweet grove]

yeah nice man, you're definitely doing less unsafe things which is overall a lot better

but i'd say you still have a habit of doing it under pressure

and you still don't really have intentionn behind your buttons

for example, i've watched you do heavy dragonlash followed by hadouken more than once (which is not a real combo and not safe)

and i see you often pressing cr.mk without any follow up

or jumping in and not knowing what combo/buttons to press

you really need to just practice a few tools, i'm telling you

just isolate and simplify your gameplay to a few tools that you know REALLY well

we need to add more safe/strong setplay

setplay that you can be really confident in

that way it becomes a sort of "baseline" for your gameplay

and you can modify it depending on how your opponent's react and as you learn more about the game

if you just press buttons without purpose or any idea why you're doing them

then you're not going to know how to adjust

let's start by just adding these to our tools in neutral

i just want to see you trying them

you need to formulate a gameplan

all these options are ways to give you free pressure

these, hadoukens, and the run kicks you're already doing

let's make these our main neutral tools

• anti airs

trust me, this is plenty

at this rank, even if you master using just these tools you can climb

[main anvil]

if i might add, that's the gameplan he started me out with like a few weeks ago, and since then i went from 5k lp to 9.2k (Silver 1 -> Gold 1) and still climbing 😄

[shadow swan]

Hey are you still taking students? @sweet grove

[sweet grove]

haha idk if i would call it taking students but, yeah im still offering coaching

@shadow swan

[shadow swan]

ok thank you
I’ve been an Aki player for a while, but now i think i’m settled down on ken, i’ve been sitting around the 1420ish MR range and i feel like my gameplay is a big lacking. I tried Vod Reviewing myself but i still not understand ken enough to make it valuable to his fullest potential.

HFJ3UHNEW (Ken vs Ken)
W5D8XA63E (Ken vs Ryu)
XS4XPDTBB (Ken vs Chun)

I have these 3 vods to share and it’ll be awesome if you could take a look at them (lemme know if you prefer me recording them and posting).
The issues I found myself are :
-Giving up too much space in neutral, sometimes I just walk back for no reason
-Antiairs are still a bit of an hit or miss, i don’t AA some easy jumps
-there is a certain range (like right outside stHK range) where i feel very awkward and often jump for no reason
-My defense is lacking

Thank you so much for your help, we’ll try to make it work with the big time difference!

[sweet grove]

Replay IDs are totally fine! I'm watching them now and I'll make you some detailed notes

and tag you when I'm done

[shadow swan]

thank you so much!

[sweet grove]

We actually play pretty similar tbh! To preface, while I did hit 1723, with the current rank reset and everyone being equalized, I've been hovering 1600-1650. Ultimately, I think the differences between your gameplay and mine are going to be very small, but when you add up those small details, they become a bit more significant.

So I'm going start by asking you a few questions about your gameplay (this is so we can do some reflection/introspection - not an attack or criticism):

When someone is close to you/walking towards you, I notice you have a habit of pressing cr. lp, cr. lk and st.lk. Why?

When you're in the corner, you sometimes have the habit of pressing cr. lp on wakeup or when they walk up to pressure you. Why?

Why are you "walking back for no reason"? What is going through your mind as you make the decision to walk back?

What is going through your mind when you parry a fireball?

What is your idea of neutral? (what tools do you use? how do you approach it?)

What are your oki setups/flowchart/BnBcombos?

@shadow swan

[shadow swan]

Ok i'm gonna split this up giving a number to each question:

1. I usually press trying to check either their walk forward or stuff a button they press, but honestly there's nothing more to that, i'm currently not converting any of those hits into bigger punishes, the only positive outcome is that as far as i have noticed people will just get confused i hit them and sometimes i can get a throw off it, it's already getting a lot less common and that might be something i should work on, i know st.lk is a good tool to check stuff in neutral.
   2)This one in particular is what i'm putting most of my attention on right now because most of the damage i take imo comes from me mashing in wakeup. The origin of this might lay in my diamond days with aki because a lot of people there have a suboptimal oki game and a lot of times you can just CH them because they miss the timing, but i understand that the more i climb, the more people will get "clean" on their oki game
2. Now this one is a good question, because i notice the habit but i never tried to ask myself why. I think this habit comes down to me looking for a big stHK whiff punish, and i try to walk back overexagerating tho. Other times my brain goes into the "you have to throw out a fireball" and i start to giveup a lot of space to throw one. Fireball timings is something i still need to understand properly.

4)The whole fireball parry is a big part of the game that i lack, usually my main thought is "well done you parried it" ignoring completely all the advantages that come from a PP option select.
5)This is an interesting question, neutral in my opinion is a gamestate that creates itself when both you and the opponent are dancing in a space trying to A) control space and push the other one to the corner B)play the triangle of poke/counterpoke/whiff punish to start the offense. Now my approach to neutral is really passive, i'm waiting my opponent to make a mistake and punish it, which is extremely efficient in lower elos, but now (especially when i get paired with 1600ish players) i'm noticing people can abuse this passive behaviour to corner me. When i walk forward tho i try to use st.lk as much as possible trying to buffer behind it a tatsu or drive rush if i go willingly for a whiff punish. In the end my main neutral plan is very whiff punish oriented.
6)Now for BnBs i usually go for (cr.lp), st.mp, st.hp xx run tatsu mid screen, when I get a cr.mk now i autopilot to DRC cr.mp, st.mp, st.hp, i'm trying to get the cr.hp run cancel combos in my muscle memory. On st.HP PC i'm trying to get the crmk DRC followup if i can confirm it, when i can't i just go into drive rush or run shoryu if i don't wanna spend meter. For Lights BnBs i'm tryin to get in my muscle memory the cr.lp, st.lk xx shoryu but mostly i'm going just 3x st.LP into H Shoryu in game. I have some Jinray loops down but i don't go for them in game tbh

Regarding oki i go for double dash into cr.lk, crlp that i can confirm into LTatsu, MShoryu or throw, i do jab into run overhead or jab into run cancel to bait a reversal or go low. After throw i usually just dash up or DR st.hp, same goes for run Shoryu. I don't have the correct oki for PC sweep down.
Speaking of Flowcharts i don't have one, i religiously follow - right now i'm trying to get a Throw after my first knockdown as suggested by ChrisT in one of his coaching session uploaded on youtube, becvause the reaction to a first KD throw can tell you a lot about the player, if he's willing to take the throw or not.

[shadow swan]

sorry for the wall of text but the more i can explain the easier it is for both of us imo

[sweet grove]

No problems at all, the wall of text is awesome!

1. Yeah so, I think if you're going to make the commitment to check with a fast button for them walking forward, then you might as well do it with the intention of converting, at least until they show you they're willing to block it or space themselves against it. The way I like to personally think about spacing in neutral is using the Cr. MK range as my baseline. If they aren't doing Cr. MK and I'm instead in a range inside of it where we're challenging each other with faster buttons, I personally like to commit to an option that will convert or give me pressure - like Cr. MP xx DR, Cr. MP xx Hadouken, Cr. MP xx jinrai. I think just pressing st. lk to check them for little damage won't really dissuade them from walking up on you all the time.

2)Yeah I would say try not to mash but, if you're going to commit to a button on wakeup, you should do it with a bit more intention to convert - so in your case with cr. lp, you're probably subconsciously thinking about it's conversion on counter hit into cr. mk (which I've seen you do a few times). If you're going to commit to this, you might as well practice the timing so that you can properly link it on counter hit and get you a side swap. Otherwise, you should think about why you're pressing on wakeup - like if you want to beat shimmy, you might as well commit to a button that will reach them when they walk back like cr. mk.

3. Yeah this is tough and something I struggle with too - I would say that, if you're in the habit of whiff punishing like I am, then you should at least see what they're tendencies are before you start trying to whiff punish. Personally, I try to keep my mental stack on my opponent's neutral skip options until they show me they're willing to actually play footsies. If you establish they play footsies, maybe try to get a read on their tendencies of what they press and what ranges. I usually start with cr. mk range. You don't always have to test this range by walking back for a whiff punish - you could try blocking it and then doing drive reversal/OD reversal to get an advantage on drive gauge. You could also just hold the pressure. But you just want to get a feel first of how they play neutral before you start trying to whiff punish. If you try to whiff punish from the get-go and just walk back, you make yourself predictable. Alternatively, if you notice your opponent walking forward to try to catch your feet while walking back, you can try to preemptively catch their walk forward with your own cr. mk.

4. Yeah I would say, try to at least attempt the perfect parry option select on their fireballs, so you can either get a punish or pressure, and show them that you know how to do it and you're willing to do it.

5)Yeah this seems good and this is how I play too. I think the pitfall of this style of playing we both have, is that you can become predictable with walk back if you're only trying to whiff punish so, it's good to move in and out of the range rather than only walk back, and to challenge the space a bit more. Another option you might consider is perfect parry option select within cr. mk range. But yeah I think largely, ken's neutral is trying to convert off a whiff punish or a random hit in neutral into corner carry.

6. I think you could have some better conversions/setups to mix up your offense! I'll link some videos of me doing some setups shortly. I like the advice about throw after the first knockdown - I never considered that!

Also, all of this is obviously easier said than done and, I think the higher we get the more nuanced and detailed the path to improvement becomes

but hopefully this gives you another perspective

After any run tatsu, cr. lk + forward dash gives you meaty cr. mp that is +2 oB and +5 oH. This allows you to combo into st. mp target combo, or you can link it into cr. lp, st. lk. Linking into cr. lp, st.lk oB creates a spacing trap for cr. mk whiff punish

Any time you do st. mp target combo xx light jinrai, heavy ender, medium shoryuken, you can do cr. lk, st. lp to get a frame kill for another meaty cr. mp that is +2 oB and +5 oH

@shadow swan

[shadow swan]

oh wait is it light jinray? Damn i always went for the medium one

Thank you so much for the setups btw never seen this

[sweet grove]

yeah I personally don't go for medium, I don't like dropping combos and and the light jinrai is way easier and auto timed

[shadow swan]

i'll try to lab a bit of PP fireballs OS and actively thinking about not giving up space and working forward

[shadow swan]

yeah i drop it a lot, really helpful

[sweet grove]

np if you have any questions lmk 😄

[fast rock]

any tips in the guile matchup? ive been struggling so much once i close the distance but havent gotten a knockdown yet

feels like he jsut pokes me out with his normals then if im out of range he booms, if i try to jump the boom it recovers before i get a punish and he just blocks or flash kicks

[sweet grove]

man I hate Guile lmao

sooo

usually my answer to this matchup is to show I can PP OS it

even if I show him just once

so he's a bit more scared of throwing booms

also, to look for when he walks forward to jump

since he won't have charge for flash kick

otherwise, things you probably already do like EX hadouken followed by DR

i also try to find the range at which he feels uncomfortable throwing a boom

and instead throwing a normal

and look for the whiff punish

i also make sure to do a few pure reaction checks with DR jab

keep him on his toes

but yeah this is hard, sometimes u just have to be patient for the right opening

as long as you're not taking too much drive gauge damage

it's okay if you parry/block a few booms

get a feel for his rhythm

he's not dealing damage to you

one piece of advice someone gave me is to also get a feel for the ranges at which he can actually do fire ball + DR

and to know when it isn't a real/tight string

a lot of Guile's autopilot boom + DR

and if you can check their DR with an OD reversal

even just once

it'll live in their head for the rest of the match

that you're willing to do that

[fast rock]

by pp os do you mean when you PP the boom and DR?

[sweet grove]

exactly

and to follow it with a jb

jab*

since it's quick

can either get a punish or he usually can't react to check it

then bam you're in

and you gotta make it count

haha

[fast rock]

i think i do need to do raw DR more in generall i always hear people complain aobut it but i dont do it myself

[sweet grove]

yeah RAW DR jab is this game's version of dash in SFV

whether to react to jump or dash

except raw DR is way better

so u gotta keep their mental stack

[fast rock]

oh shit i didnt think about that thats genius

[sweet grove]

thinking about that option

[fast rock]

ill try to add these next time i see a guile, thanks

[alpine ridge]

hi, im new to sf (only about 30hrs) and fighting games, am hovering around iron5 at the moment, using leverless with classic controls, is there anything general i should be doing for now before i get more individual advice?

i am struggling with people who jump(especially cross-ups) a lot, projectiles, as well as unfamiliarity with other characters. is there any recommended shortcuts for dp if u use leverless? i have been using 2HP

currently only use the lab to practice my bnb combo, looking for form a routine that helps me improve gradually and understand other characters more but im unsure of how to start, dont mind putting in massive hours into the lab, i love labbing

also feel like my general gameplan is to use sweeps and throws, as well as punish into my bnb, i am learning tekken as well and even though sf seems to have a lot more guides but the starting direction is a little more confusing to me, especially because idk how to use the lab well

i also dont really use the drive mechanics except countering DI, not sure when is the optimal time to use them and i felt like it was better to get a feel for the game before abusing drive rushes, since people at my rank dont use it either

[sweet grove]

@alpine ridge yeah 100% i can help you out!

how familiar are you with frame data

what does that word mean to you

also how familiar are you with written notation for fighting games

just want to preface those things to get an idea of ur understanding

[alpine ridge]

quite id say

for a beginner at least

[alpine ridge]

very

the stuff i dont quite understand about frame data are like how safejumps work and certain framekill setups

but i assume its not that important for me at this lvl

thanks btw! appreciate it a lot

[sweet grove]

awesome that's great! that gives us a really good baseline to work with

so if i were to describe a move as having a 5f startup

3 active frames

and maybe idk 13 recovery frames

would you understand what im saying

and what that translates to if you were to try to visual the move

additionally, if i said a move has + frame advantage

or - frame advantage

would you understand what that means?

[alpine ridge]

i understand active, recovery, and advantage by itself, but i dont fully get the math that links them together

[sweet grove]

okay, when you say "the math that links them together" do you mean you don't understand why certain things combo?

sorry if this seems like a big interrogation haha, i just want to really understand where you're coming from

[alpine ridge]

i understand combos i think, its either links or cancels

[sweet grove]

before we begin

[alpine ridge]

nah no worries

i meant i dont fully understand how a move has an advantage based on its startup and recovery

not sure if there is a math behind that

i was looking for a vid to understand it bc i like understanding everything theoretically but cant find one

[sweet grove]

Yeah exactly! So if a move has enough + frames on hit, a link would be when you input another move that has the same amount of frames or less startup, as the amount of frame advantage.

So for example, I think Ryu's St. MP is something like +6 on hit, and has 6f startup. This means, that you can actually link the move into itself to get a 2 hit combo.

A cancel, is when you actually cancel the move early into another move (usually a special, like hadouken) meaning it doesn't fully enact the full amount of recovery frames.

Does this make sense to you so far?

[alpine ridge]

for example, if a move has multiple active frames, why would the advantage always be the same on hit/block? if i hit him earlier on my active frames wouldnt it be different

[alpine ridge]

yup

i think i understand most of the basic level frame data stuff

hopefully

[sweet grove]

actually, you are right to question this because, in some scenarios, if you hit someone starting from a later point in the move's active frames, you can make it have more frame advantage on hit and on block!

but this is advanced and we can skip this for now

Okay good you have a really good understanding then!

[alpine ridge]

oh yea i think i heard abt it in meaties or safejumps smth like that

ok nice!

[sweet grove]

Last thing I want to ask

do you know what a punish is?

what does a punish mean to you

[alpine ridge]

yup, when a move is unsafe

-4 or more

if i rmb correctly

[sweet grove]

yeah exactly! and it's -4 or more because, the fastest thing you can input in this game (with few exceptions) is 4f startup!

[alpine ridge]

though the pushback in this game messes w my knowledge more

in tekken there usually isnt any pushback so i can just punish according to the frame data

[sweet grove]

Okay great so, do you want to send me a replay of your playing and build off what you're already doing or would you like to just start by talking about a gameplan?

Also, I'm assuminng you play Ken if you're in this thread

[alpine ridge]

yup i play ken

[sweet grove]

I might be able to help you with other characters but, only so much

[alpine ridge]

could i have a general gameplan first?

maybe i could try implementing it later

im also generally worse on the execution side and prefer being better at game sense when i look at how i play other games, so i read a lot of guides/vids, if u have any resource u think might help thatd be good too

[sweet grove]

Yeah for sure! So there are like 4 main "dimensions" or areas of playing street fighter that I'd like to define for us:

Neutral - This is when you are midscreen with your opponent and you are both sort of feeling each other out and poking each other.

Air - The air is just another dimension besides moving horizontally and, can happen from neutral, from the corner or from a wakeup.

Corner - At the sides of the stage in street fighter, there is an edge/boundary, in which the character cannot move anymore. We call this a corner. In general, you don't want to be cornered and you want to instead corner your opponent.

Offense and Defense on wakeup - A lot of this game revolves around trying to land a knockdown on your opponent or getting knocked down yourself. When someone is knocked down, the opponent is free to move for many frames before they can get up and so, there is a dichotomy between what the aggressor (the person that knocked them down) does and what the defender (the person knocked down) does.

What we are going to do is try to formulate a basic gameplan that uses few tools to help us cover each dimension of our gameplay

[alpine ridge]

sounds good man

[sweet grove]

Sorry if this takes a little while but, I'm going to be sending some videos in the next few minutes that will cover each of these options and then I'll talk about how we're using them all together

[alpine ridge]

nah u dont have to apologise at all, i am taking up ur time as well

[sweet grove]

Neutral:

Air:

Defending against air (anti-air):

Continuing pressure off of a knockdown, and continuing our pressure in the corner:

Defending against pressure (guess grab, or block):

Defending against pressure but don't want to guess (careful, punishable):

For now, I think these will be the main tools that we use

your plan is to play neutral by poking your opponent with hadoukens, poking them with cr. mk or st. hp cancelled into medium kick jinrai, and also by advancing forward quickly with heavy kick dragonlash

you can also get in by jumping and going for the combo I went for

and you can defend other people's jumps by using cr. hp

when you land a knockdown with your jumping combo, you can continue your pressure as i demonstrated in the video

[alpine ridge]

are light buttons not good in this game for neutral?

[sweet grove]

and eventually when you get them in the corner, i want you to continue to hold forward jump and go for the same jump in combo again

as demonstrated in the video

and when you defend, i want you to either guess block or grab, or dont guess and take a risk with OD shoryuken

[sweet grove]

light buttons are good but, they are hard to confirm from, especially if you're new. its more practical application is to use them once you've already gotten close to them but, we can add that later I think

[alpine ridge]

is delay tech better? ive been thinking of learning it

[sweet grove]

yes it is! if you think you're up for the challenge you can try delay tech - do you know what it is or how to do it?

[alpine ridge]

i know what it is, but i tried it in practice and i didnt understand the timing at all

[alpine ridge]

u mean confirming off multiple lights right? i tried hit confirming off single 2lp and could kind of do it though it wasnt consistent, and dont think it would be consistent with mental stack at all for me

[sweet grove]

Yeah so basically, you can break a throw within a 9f window (might have to fact check this) and so, as you rise on your wake up, you are holding down back (to block) while inputting throw at the latest possible timing within that window. what this does is it allows you to block anyone that times their "meaty" attack to hit on the earlier frames, while still within the window to break the throw if they went for a throw.

in this way, you cover both options

i recommend learning it if you're up for it

i can also show you how you can practice it

[alpine ridge]

sure! is there something better than the built-in practice?

[sweet grove]

the built in practice is perfect for this! the "throw escape" practice

you just need to get used to the timing

what you can do is, after getting knocked down, default to just holding down back

then all you have to do is focus on inputting throw late

[alpine ridge]

i also realised u used half circle instead qcf for hadoken, i should do that right? to prevent dps from coming out sometimes

is there a general idea on when i can press my next hadoken too? since the speeds are different and i cant have two on the screen, sometimes i end up doing a normal

[sweet grove]

what can also help with this is, you can go to "screen display settings" and turn on the "Action timing display" which shows you when you are actually able to input on your wakeup. additionally, you can also go to "environment settings" to set the game speed to a slower speed

[sweet grove]

yes, I personally use a half circle forward to avoid inputting dp accidentally

[alpine ridge]

as for AA, should i try to learn DP as soon as possible? especially for cross ups, i lose many games to them

[sweet grove]

as for fireballs, it's best to throw another one shortly after seeing that the first one you inputted hits your opponent (either block, or actual hit), or if the fireball is off of the screen

[sweet grove]

if you think you are up for it, light punch DP is definitely Ken's best anti air to learn! iirc, you said you're on hitbox, so if you are up to learn the SOCD input for dp, i would try to learn it ASAP

anti airs at lower ranks are super important

u can probably climb to gold just using anti airs

[alpine ridge]

is the ones at the wall safejumps? i cant tell what jump is a safejump yet, and there is a timing i would need so that i can meaty them with the jump-in right?

[alpine ridge]

sorry whats shorty?

[alpine ridge]

yes pls, i saw multiple recommended shortcuts for standing/crouching dps on leverless, what are ur personal recommendations?

[sweet grove]

yeah so, safe jumps aren't too complicated! basically, after some knockdowns, there is exactly enough frames advantage so that you can time your jump so that it can't be beaten by anything (other than perfect parry and zangief CA). in our case, this is st. mp > st. hp target combo xx medium jinrai. right as soon as you input medium jinrai, you immediately just hold up + forward. the only hard part will be timing your jumping hp, while also holding down back. then, either on hit or on block, you immediately follow it up with another st. mp > st. hp target combo xx medium jinrai

[sweet grove]

sorry, I meant shortly!

[alpine ridge]

ok thanks ill try that later

[sweet grove]

this is how you input the SOCD shortcut for a light DP

you basically plink (press very quickly one after the other, in succession) forward then down, then you hold both of them

then you follow it immediately with up + punch

[alpine ridge]

oh nice that was what i was using too

what do u use for crouching?

[sweet grove]

i also use this for crouching! for me, it's an automatic reaction that whenever i see someone leave the ground, i stop what im doing and input this

[alpine ridge]

ohh ok nice that makes it easier

what abt cross cuts? do u use the normal half circle back thing?

im not sure how to lab anti airs though, the recordings in game dont seem to add any mental stack, if i know only the jump is coming its a lot easier

[sweet grove]

for cross cut, i just wait for them to go to the other side and then immediately input the SOCD shorcut for that side

or sometimes, if you're lucky, you'll input it on the same side

and it auto corrects

i personally don't do half circle cross cut

[sweet grove]

this is tough, i would recommend recording a dummy doing different things, OR, to just try spending a few casual matches ONLY trying to anti air your opponent, without the intention of playing regularly or playing to win

also, here is the application of safe jump!:

[alpine ridge]

and for punishment, u didnt specify any but would it be good to use chin buster run x tatsu? ive been mostly using it and oki setup of 5LP run overhead, and tried the double dash too but it was tough

[sweet grove]

Yeah so, if you are up for the challenge, it's 100% better to get a punish that ends in run xx tatsu so that you get the corner carry!

I'm basically just trying to keep your tools simple while you're learning

but if you find any of it too basic

[alpine ridge]

ahh ok

[sweet grove]

feel free to modify it

😄

[alpine ridge]

ok nice! but if its a non point blank 4f punish i hv no idea what to use

since starting with 2LP would need to be point blank

[sweet grove]

yeah so, if you're already familiar with the frame data of some moves, and you've recognized that it's too far to punish even though it's -4, then it's just spaced too far

there are some moves that while minus to be punished, can't actually be punished due to spacing

[alpine ridge]

damn alright

[sweet grove]

for now though, getting really tight punishes might be too difficult

i would focus on trying to punish really big punishes

[alpine ridge]

ok sure

[sweet grove]

like someone doing sweep

if you block it, you can generally punish with your own sweep

or if someone does OD shoryuken on wakeup

[alpine ridge]

yeah ive been abusing that haha

havent been using supers much though, didnt know which combo to learn into it

[sweet grove]

Yeeah so, basically let's make this your "gameplan" for now! if you have any additional questions about how to practice it, how to input it, anything, don't hesitate to ask!

[alpine ridge]

theres so many combos in this game bc of the gauge

most times i just save my lvl 3 and use DI into it

[sweet grove]

Additionally, I don't know how willing he would be to chime in but, I basically set up @main anvil on this same gameplan, and he has risen from Silver to Gold 3 and has a pretty solid practice regimen

so he might be able to share with you how he has practiced these same tools

[alpine ridge]

ohh wow thats sick

[sweet grove]

and basically as you get better, we will modify and add to your gameplan

until eventually it becomes more optimal

[alpine ridge]

alright sounds good

ill get in the lab first to get used to the new moves, and after that when i have games ill send them here

thanks again man! hv a nice day

[sweet grove]

yeah for sure! whenever you have questions or want a replay review, just send them here

For supers, let's use this route for now! Be careful of trying to do SA3/CA3 from midscreen, it will not combo

[main anvil]

can highly recommend 🙂
If you want some thoughts from a beginner perspective, lmk 🙂
(SF6 is my first fighting game, i played with modern ken to silver 3, switched to classic, dropped to silver 1, and with Jot's support quickly rose again :))
Had some good days where i made 3k+ LP in a day 😄

[alpine ridge]

thanks! its my second fg after tekken 8 but i only started tekken a month earlier, do u have any daily training routine?

[main anvil]

not really daily, primarily going through whats lacking
sooo, a big starting point i had with jot was my neutral combo

And i just made sure that i can do that from both sides, with somewhat clean inputs regularly
So i just hopped in the lab, and checked that I can do that kind of on autopilot without much thinking
And then added up on that

Pretty much just seeing what inputs are important for me, and how confident can i do them, especially in a combo
What helped me too, (to have the difference from still dummy to moving player) was to put the dummy on a low level (2 or 3) and just do my best to do the combos against it

so, my "routine" primarily is around increasing the quality of my inputs, and for that i just use combos that build upon another

[alpine ridge]

ohh nice! whats the neutral combo u noted down? curious if we hv the same

[main anvil]

What is important for me for my routine:

1. Doesn't bore me out of my mind

My first idea for a routine was to do clean fireballs multiple times, and then go to the next part of the combo, and I realized quickly that I would go through like 20 fireballs before doing any other input.
So I resorted to doing the full combo, and just tried again until it was clean. So I stopped when I started mashing. And let me tell you, feeling the right timing, doing the exact amount of inputs you need, absolutely amazing 😄

Also, the combos that Jot teached me, overwhelm a majority of players without a neutral plan.
When I really studied all the combos, and understood them, I think I went in one day from 5k elo to 8.5k elo, additionally, I went yesterday from 9.2 to 10.6 (Gold 1 - > Gold 3)

[alpine ridge]

btw which region are u frm? im frm asia, would be nice if i somehow reach a rank close to urs and we hv games

[main anvil]

I'm Europe (Germany/EUW)
It depends on your location in Asia, tried playing with a guy from Japan and not really possible, but with Jot (who's like NA region) it's "only" 120 ping but absolutely smooth

[alpine ridge]

u seemed to hv improved really quick, how long hv u been playing after getting jots advice?

[alpine ridge]

ahh i see nvm

[main anvil]

I just checked the videos he send for you, and it really shows how good Jot is with building upon an existing plan.

I have a very similar plan, I just have the inclusion of Drive Rushes, and I really understand that the current combos are a good starting point, especially because the drive rushes are very easy to implement as soon as you're comfortable (please don't deviate from your plan with Jot because it's easy to implement, he's a smart player and coach, follow his advice :))

[alpine ridge]

ahh i see, yeah i think my plan is already more than enough for me now, can see myself having a gameplan at least, rn i dont have a good one in neutral

are u comfortable w DPs as anti airs at ur rank already?

i rly want to be btr at them, its what i hate the most

[main anvil]

My standard combo is
Fireball xx Dr xx HP xx Target combo xx Mid Jinrai (+ on block light Jinrai)

And you have the fireball on neutral, plus the jumping in with the target combo plus Jinrai
Or the cr Mk + target combo (I have cr Mk Dr Target Combo)

What are you playing on?

[alpine ridge]

leverless

[main anvil]

Cuz I play on a leverless, and I feel like on anything else that motion would be a nightmare for me

Do you know the shortcut?

[alpine ridge]

yup

u use the same shortcuts regardless whether u are standing or crouching like jot right?

i guess im just not used to doing dps yet, been relying on my 2HP

[main anvil]

Most of the time, I think so, yes 😄
I'm still trying out quite a bit regarding the shortcuts

[alpine ridge]

nice, how do u deal with cross ups personally? there is cross cut dps but they are tough

[main anvil]

Just to be on the same page, for DP what I do is
(all holding) forward then down then up + p

I also have to say, I'm not that good often with Anti airs, I often forget them until mid game 😄

[alpine ridge]

oh yup

same method

[main anvil]

Uhm, hahaha funny enough I recently had a guy that like only did cross ups and it confused me so much, and I saw a good video from Brian f (I think) but don't know yet if Jot would also use that method
For people that do cross Ups a lot, jump and I think mid kick is an option to deal with it

[main anvil]

I got quite comfortable with doing that somewhat reliably over the time.

But also, I've been a keyboard player in other video games for forever, doing such inputs is somewhat easy for me

https://youtube.com/shorts/dzYfBOrBoME?si=C4xXd2gMMsF1RztO

Also, just to be sure, on ANY topic in this Jot > My word!

[main anvil]

I realized I forgot to answer that one.

Lemme check for a precise answer

I currently have 73 hours. I think at around 30/35 I switched to Classic, got my ass whooped and with around 35-40 hours I started with Jot
So around 35-40 hours

I think I've been with him for a month now

this is a more accurate depiction of my playtime 😄
And i would say about half of ranked is since jot
2/3 of practice since jot
and 100% of Custom matches since jot

So, around 32h of 50 hours under Jots guidance and Gold 3 is the current result or 8 Upranks and 5.8k LP or more than double the LP since i started 🙂
(I'm also on a 6 winstreak or smthing and made gold 1-> Gold 3 yesterday :D)

And a recommendation I can give, find pleasure and excitement in good combos you did, but also amazement in getting properly beat down by a knowledgeable enemy. Or find a good laugh when you get beat down by a mashing enemy that overwhelms you 🙂

I think an approach that helps me is that I am so amazed in fighting games how much there is to know and learn.
I am GOOD at fps/shooters, and when I switched to Fighting games I knew nothing, could do nothing, and I enjoy sucking at the games (relatively speaking) because there is soooo much to learn.

I currently (with Jots help) found more joy in 60h of SF6 than I can remember in 4k hours of Counter strike, it's an amazing journey

[alpine ridge]

wow thats really quick

[alpine ridge]

yeah same, i came from mobas and card games so its very different, dont have the reaction time for it

hoping i can get more comfortable w the game soon too, thanks for the help too!

[sweet grove]

man i love this haha

if you guys end up having good latency (hopefully) u could end up being like sparring partners

with the same gameplan

[sweet grove]

yeah if at any point ur unsure how to practice these things lmk

we could even hop in a call and i can show u 1-on-1

[main anvil]

Where in Asia are you from?
Maybe we have a bit of luck with the latency?

[alpine ridge]

singapore

[alpine ridge]

alright thanks! i havent been able to practice but i tried searching for slightly more optimal routes and watching ur vids to see the moves, and i didnt understand how did the H dragonlash kick link into 2LP

i saw online it was +3 on hit, but saw somewhere too that it hits crouching opponent 1f later and hence becomes +4 or smth, quite confused why it even works like that

[alpine ridge]

we could definitely try regardless though, once im a little higher ranked haha

[sweet grove]

yeah so, only reason I have you going for jabs after Hlash is because it's +1 on block, so it's your only option that frame traps. if they din't block you get a combo anyways. at lower ranks u can basically just autopilot this

but u r right it's only +3 so it doesnt true combo unless they get counter hit or punish counter hit

but if they r crouching it's +4 so it will normal combo yes

but because lights are non commital and only really lose to perfect parry or invincible reversal, its usually safe to just go for

[alpine ridge]

ohh i see, is there any website i can use to see frame data for punish counters/counter hit too? on the official website it doesnt show i think

[sweet grove]

counter hit is extra +2

PC is extra +4

iirc

[alpine ridge]

and for the 2mk combo, wont it be unsafe since its not hit confirmable? i know 5hp is but i heard 2mk isnt

ohh ok nice

[sweet grove]

yes u r technically right, its also not a true blockstring so it is suscptible to DI

but at lower ranks u probably dont need to worry about hit confirm as much as stopping your opponent from jumping and doing random DI and OD shoryu on wakeup haha

5HP xx medium jinrai is a true blockstring tho

and unless they did DI before you inputted 5HP, u can always counter DI

since DI won't come out til after the first hit of jinrai, on account of it being a true blockstring

but also, most people are more worried about cr.mk xx drive rush in this game

doing a DI after a cr.mk is so risky as you get higher up

[alpine ridge]

ohh i meant punishable as in its -11 on block(?) if they just block the entire thing which is very unsafe

[alpine ridge]

thats true too, sry i think im a little too focused on how higher ranked players play but that may be too much for me now

[sweet grove]

are you cancelling into light or medium jinrai?

if you cancel into medium, the first hit is only -7 on block

and it's a true block string if you follow it up with the low ender

[alpine ridge]

yeah i meant the low ender

not the kick itself sry

only -5, i read wrong

[sweet grove]

yep only -5 but, it is punishable if you are too close (although i don't think anyone is going to block and punish this until you get higher up)

but yeah this is a huge knowledge check at lower ranks

and still useful at higher ranks

most people at lower ranks will just start mashing DI when they get hit by it over and over again

since on hit it leaves you + so you can just go for it again

[alpine ridge]

wait how does on hit being + stop that from mashing DI? tbh im not very familiar with how DI works other than some moves cant cancel into it so i need to be careful using them, but im not sure of the window my opponent has to use it, like im sure they cant spam it whenever but idk when

[sweet grove]

oh it doesn't stop them, sorry i should clarify

what i meant is, since the low ender leaves you + if it hits

you can kind of like "vortex" your opponent

by continually doing st. mp target combo xx jinrai

but eventually they will likely mash DI

so yeah you want to make sure you know at what points your combo/string is susceptible to DI

and how to end your pressure short if you anticipate it

as long as your opponent is left a gap to input

as in, not a true combo or blockstring

they can mash DI

[alpine ridge]

ahh that makes sense

thanks man im learning so much, its really interesting to me

[sweet grove]

yeah np! it's my pleasure!

[alpine ridge]

btw just curious, what are ur bindings and what leverless are u guys using? @sweet grove @main anvil i assume u both have 12 button layouts

[sweet grove]

X > LB punches

A > LT kicks

RB = Parry

R3 = DI

L3 = Empty

RT = KK

[main anvil]

I have a Haute42 T16
Don't know how readable that is 😄

i never really use the 2k button, so pretty much just the DI as additional button

[alpine ridge]

ohh i see

[alpine ridge]

im using the same haha

[sweet grove]

yeah my hitbox is custom haha

so might not be applicable per se to your layout

but if you have haute42 then it kinda is

[fast rock]

how simple was it to make? ive been wanting to make one with keyboard movement keys but a regular hitbox jump button and arcade attack buttons for a while

[sweet grove]

honestly, assembling everything with the buttons and the board is the easy part!

it's actually getting a hitbox to the layout you need that's the hard part

cuz you either have to drop a alot of money to get the enclosure custom made

or you gotta make it urself

in my case, i was super lucky in that my friend does woodworking and made it for free

[fast rock]

i wish i had my old xbox 360 right about now

[sweet grove]

but actually connecting the buttons to the wires

is super super ez

[fast rock]

did you just draw out your layout on a peice of paper to make sure you had the dimensions right?

[sweet grove]

yeah so, I used this specific program that I have absolutely no business using and no credentials for

called LibreCad

I think it's mainly for like

architects

or floor planning

and blueprinting

but it allows you to draw and measure precisely

is how i'd descrbie it?

and i ended up making this:

[fast rock]

oh i think my brother knows something like that could prolly ask him about it

[sweet grove]

'

then i sent that to my woodworking friend

and he made the enclosure using those dimensions

but i started off by envisioning what i wanted my layout to be

and then drawing it on a piece of paer

paper*

how i would want it to fit my hands

then i measured the distance between the buttons

and inputted it all into the program

[fast rock]

interesting, sounds a lot more simple than i thought in my head

[sweet grove]

yeah it's not too bad and, if you're willing to pay someone to help you make a custom one

there are people that are really good at this stuff

so that you can just give them the general idea ur going for

and they do the rest

[fast rock]

you didnt need any souldering for wiring the buttons?

[sweet grove]

nope! the board I bought is "Zero Fighting Pi" from Brooks

everything is like

plug and connect

no soldering or anything

u just need to make sure you get all the required parts/pieces

the actual assembling isn't bad

it's the prep work before that that takes more effort

[fast rock]

sick, thank you!

[sweet grove]

if you want to know more and get maybe some more in depth answers

or talk to some vendors

i recommend this channel:

https://discord.gg/KvReeEH8

if ur curious, heres my hitbox

@fast rock

[main anvil]

Same pad or layout, or both? 😄

[alpine ridge]

same pad, different layout, i have my normals on the 6 buttons closest to the right

[main anvil]

ahh alright

if you want, we can check with latency rn 😄 if you have time

@alpine ridge

[alpine ridge]

sure man

what am i supposed to do?

also, do u use the same shortcuts for dragonlash as DP? or just the normal 623 motion

[main anvil]

whats your cfn name?

[main anvil]

yes

i use shortcut for: Dragonlash, DP, Fireball, and P2 sided qcf
And raw Jinrai sometimes

[alpine ridge]

where can i find that? forgot what i put

[main anvil]

in the menu, top right

[alpine ridge]

chopper

i assume its just my in game name

[main anvil]

yeah

i invited you

I guess 200 ping V] §

[alpine ridge]

yea v laggy

[main anvil]

Oh damn

That's more slideshow vibes 😄

[alpine ridge]

haha yea

ggs anyway

[main anvil]

GGS 😄

Why is a good ping halfway across the world difficult? 😦

[alpine ridge]

i heard japan to canada was fine

i think 2 is playable sometimes, but ours is 1 bar lol\

[alpine ridge]

@sweet grove hi, jump-in attacks can be at different timings right? then how do u know when to DP? i saw a video teaching to do the max 1320dmg DP late but would that cause me to get hit sometimes?

[sweet grove]

so basically, all of Ken's DPs have what is called "air invincibility" starting on frame 1, and then continuing for a few frames

this means you are able to DP very late, which is good because it gives you more time to react

but essentially, you can pretty much just DP as soon as you see them leave the ground, assuming it's a regular jump

i recommend using the light version of DP

u just gotta get familiar with the range at which you can actually anti air them with a DP

if they are way too far (like full screen) there's no point if even trying to anti air because their jump is nowhere near you

if they are too close, you have to be aware of crossup

[clever reef]

Any particular reason to go for the light DP? I mostly use medium as a holdover from sf5, is it only because it's faster?

[shadow swan]

also better air invul, 1-14 on L Dp

[clever reef]

Ah ok, I'll try using it more then.

[sweet grove]

also less susceptible to cross ups

[clever reef]

Good to know, cross ups are the bane of my existence sometimes so that'll help a bit

[sweet grove]

word of warning, u can still definitely get crossed up and whiff light DP

it just covers more closer angles than medium or heavy

[clever reef]

Do cross cut DPs still work well in 6? I used to be able to do them fairly consistently but I've unlearned it over the years

[sweet grove]

ya ppl still do crosscut for sure

i personally tho, wait until they cross over to the other side and do the socd hitbox shortcut for that side

i dont do the hcf thing

[clever reef]

I'm on stick so I don't how applicable that is to me. Either way I'll put it on the list of things to practice, might as well improve my anti airs while I'm at it

[fast rock]

If you time it right you can just input dp normally and hit punch after they cross you up and it auto corrects. Pretty hard to do for me at least with no practice

[alpine ridge]

sorry whats the (1) and (2) im seeing in combo notations? for example, 214LK(2) and 236HK(1)

[sweet grove]

oh interesting

tbh im not actually sure

can you link me the combo resource you're using @alpine ridge

[alpine ridge]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wuC-rzl3caOXpUt6uiv8tVxv4ceNqFfW1JXOwIVcpLA/edit?usp=sharing

under combos

[sweet grove]

well i took one of their examples,

2HP > 236HK(1) > 623KK > 623HP

and i'm guessing the 1 in the brackets just means one hit of the jinrai?

without the ender

oh yeah i think it's how many hits

this one for example

5LK > 214LK(2), 623MP

it 214LK is tatsu

if you're too far you only get 1 hit

and you won't get the juggle for 623MP (shoryu)

[alpine ridge]

ohh ok i see, thanks

[alpine ridge]

is there a way to save my recordings of the dummy in training? everytime i exit it resets

tried the save training settings but idk why it doesnt work

[sweet grove]

if ur using the shortcuts to record

then im not too sure

but if ur manually going to the recording settings

and recording into a slot

it should save

[alpine ridge]

can i ask how do we know if a cancelled move can lead into another move? so if my first move is blocked it can never guarantee a hit on the second, but if the first move(for example 2mk) hits, how do u know it can cancel into medium but not heavy jinrai? is it based on the recovery frames of 2mk and startup of the second move?

[fast rock]

if im understanding that right hten its based on the ammount of hitstun 2mk puts the enemy in and how much startup medium/heavy jinrai has

so just as a random example, if 2mk has 15 frames of hitstun but heavy jinrai has 16 frames of startup it wont work

[alpine ridge]

ohh i see, do u know which part of the frame meter is the hitstun? is it the dark blue one

[fast rock]

im not in it rn but i think its on the second part of the frame meter below in yellow or something

yea i looked it up, green is startup, red is active frames, blue is recovery, and the yellow is hitstun/blockstun

[alpine ridge]

ohh ok thanks!

[sweet grove]

yeah to add/clarify to honk's answer, a move that is special cancellable only cancels from the active frames

so i believe if you take the active frame you cancelled from and the hitstun frames they are put into, that should give you the window of frames in which you can cancel into a special

so there are 25 frames of hitstun from St. HP

and heavy jinrai has 25f of startup

but because i cancel from the first active frame

it shaves off 1 frame

and it can't combo

you'll also see that, i can cancel a bit later into this St. HP 's active frames

so when I cancel from the 3rd active frame

i lessen the window in which the cancel window can be a true combo

so you'll see a larger gap between the hitstun from st. hp and the heavy jinrai

@alpine ridge

[alpine ridge]

ohh, so in this case this can never be a true combo right?

does it work the same for DRC as well? or does DRC shave off some frames due to its input as well?

[sweet grove]

yeah exactly under normal circumstances this can never combo. But if this hits as a counter or a punish counter then you get extra hitstun so it will combo.

[sweet grove]

yes it works the same in that you cancel from an active frame. The difference is that instead of cancelling into special move with a set amount of start up, you cancel into drive rush which has a variable amount of startup depending on what normal you press during rush and when you press it

[hardy parrot]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JncPFer0RELkKvA9boqHzZ7SqvqTNiX9QLOy9QKzEOM/edit#gid=1894537793

Unsure how this’ll be updated but it has hcspcancel window (hit confirm special cancel) in the frame data here

[sweet grove]

godlike ty!

@alpine ridge

[alpine ridge]

thanks!

is there something i can do without drive rush for midscreen oki? the video u recorded includes drive rush and i wanted to learn smth without drive rush first so that it can be used everytime

@sweet grove

i keep doing sweeps but they feel high risk for minimal reward

[sweet grove]

yeah so, it depends on what combo you're doing. if you're sticking to the gameplan with st.mp target combo xx jinrai, you get 42f of advantage

im not at my pc right now but, u should probably be able to get 2 dash forwards

u also might be able to jump forward for a safe jump (part of our plan in the corner) but im not sure if it hits backrise

[sweet grove]

ya thats why i didnt include sweep in our gameplan

technically speaking, it gives decent reward since it knocksdown

but its risky if they punish with more than their own sweep

however, at lower ranks its not likely they will punish

still dont recommend making it a habit

[alpine ridge]

i see, i havent implemented this into my gameplan, doing it step by step. currently punishing with target combo xx run tatsu/dragonlash/dp and doing some jump-ins into that combo as well, trying to get used to my normals’ range more first

[alpine ridge]

yeah ive been using it less, but still punishing them with a sweep when they sweep me first at a good range(not sure if there is a better punish bc 2MK doesnt feel like it will reach sometimes), so i end up knocking them down but not sure how to capitalise on it

aside from combos, thats how i get my knockdowns from now i think

[sweet grove]

ya cool stuff

for sweep, u can punish with ur own sweep as u kno

but sometimes if they are close enough

and if their sweep is minus enough

u can get bigger punishes

but ya feel free to send a replay if u want me to take look at ur combo routes/neutral decisions

[alpine ridge]

ok thanks, is there anything i can follow up with after punishing them with sweep?

[alpine ridge]

just reached bronze, most sets go 2-0 or 1-2 at worst, honestly still trying to get used to controls because im trying to use the jump-socd method to do fireballs and other qcf motions too

once im over the hump of getting used to the motions and my normals ill add in the dragonlash/jinrai and get some replays

[sweet grove]

so if u mean after you sweep them, u should be able to get some form of oki

if u punished their sweep, itll be punish counter and a hard knockdown

so definitely in that case

not at my pc so i cant check exactly

[sweet grove]

do u mean jump socd for dp?

[alpine ridge]

oh oops

[sweet grove]

ya no worries, just putting it out there if u want more detailed advice

[alpine ridge]

nope i meant qcf too

[sweet grove]

cuz we can talk about these things in a vacuum but its easier to improve when we look at more specific things that ur doing

[alpine ridge]

so hold down, hold forward then press up and button at the same time

its about the same as the dp one

[sweet grove]

ahhhh

[alpine ridge]

i decided to try this out because i had trouble with consistent qcbs

[sweet grove]

i personally just do the motion or hcf to prevent dp

but thats cool

never tried that

[alpine ridge]

its a little unintuitive but its faster than the normal motion

do u always do hcf for fireballs? or do u see if u moved forward

[sweet grove]

i personally just always do it

not much harder for me than qcf

and i guarantee no accidental dps

same with jinrai from neutral

in combos i just do qcf tho

[alpine ridge]

ohh ok yea that makes sense

[shadow swan]

hey @sweet grove what are some good ken spacing traps?

[sweet grove]

my personal favourite, is anytime i can create a +1 or +2 meaty cr.mp, it links into cr.lp on hit, which links into st.lk on hit for a 3 hit combo

on block, these will all space out so that the opponent will whiff cr.mk afterwards

you can also do cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lk, which with an additional few frame of walking back, will also spacing trap SOME cr.mk but not all

is also susceptible to sweep

but the first one i described, u can just immediately hold down back after to block sweeps while simultaneously being spaced for cr.mk

i also like to test my opponent with max range st.hk

see how they respond to it

if they like to take their turn and whiff, u can whiff punish

if they like to take their turn with a slow button that reaches, u can probably immediately challenge with something like cr.mk

or try to parry their retaliation

[shadow swan]

tysm

[alpine ridge]

@sweet grove im around bronze 4 now but i am trying to implement fireballs/jump-ins/H dragonlash into my game but not sure how

i can probably spam H dragonlash and jump-ins against some weak opponents but that doesnt feel like a good habit to develop, so im wondering when is the time to use them in games

many opponents now can reliably anti-air if its too obvious too, realised there are quite a few gold-plat smurfs but they feel very beatable but im definitely not there yet

[sweet grove]

yooo congrats!

[sweet grove]

so h dragonlash and jumping are really strong tools, especially if your opponent doesn't check those options!

and while yes you're right, as you get higher in rank you probably don't want to rely on that

a big part of getting higher rank and getting better at fighting games

is honing in on what your opponent's tendencies and weaknesses are

but yeah for jump-ins, hdragonlash, and fireballs, this is when you're playing neutral and your opponent is staying grounded

if you find yourself unable to use these things it's probably because:

1. your opponent isn't staying grounded
2. your opponent is spamming in neutral with their own horizontal options or they're just literally spamming buttons to check you
3. your opponent is spamming DI

if it's the first reason, then you just focus on anti airing them

if it's the 2nd reason, you focus on which one of your options will beat their spam, such as fireballs from a further range or DI

3. you focus on using less of our tools in neutral, and more on countering their DI

if you have a replay, maybe we can see how it's been going

and talk about ways to adjust or add

[alpine ridge]

thanks!

i think my main issue is i can win against opponents who just kill themselves

but if they play reactively like me then im doing stuff like jump/dragonlash but i dont have a reason for doing it

im just doing it hoping it will work

so even if it somehow does work i have no idea why it did

dont mind losing for a while too, climbing isnt rly my priority

[sweet grove]

Yeah that's totally cool! If you would prefer to learn more defensive/reactive gameplay that focuses on punishing your opponent, we can totally alter your gameplan to be more tailored to that

[alpine ridge]

yea i faced some players who would squeeze a DI after some string which i thought would be unsafe

[sweet grove]

but yes, you will probably lose more

[alpine ridge]

not sure if im supposed to wait for the DI in those cases

[sweet grove]

when an opponent is spamming DI

or you have a read

that they will do it

the best thing to do is to not commit

to an unsafe string

such as using jabs

[sweet grove]

yeah so this is a bit harder to answer, along with adressing a more reactive playstyle

i really think we should start with a replay

[alpine ridge]

oh yeah i think i prefer that style to learn more about the game, but ur plan is pretty good too in giving me ways to initiate

[sweet grove]

where maybe you felt this happened

[alpine ridge]

its just that i have no idea how to implement them

ok sure let me get something before the end of this week

i just need to send u the replay name or smth like that?

[sweet grove]

cool! when you look for your replays, look for 2:

one where you felt like you couldn't implement our neutral gameplan
one where you felt like your opponent was playing reactively

yeah so every replay has a "replay ID"

if you go to your profile > history

and click on any of your match history entries

there should be a Replay ID on it

[alpine ridge]

ok nice

[alpine ridge]

tbh its still pretty hard for me to switch gears like from offensively to defensively so i might just try to have a replay where i focus more on initiating and another where i try to punish more

ill get bk to u soon, thanks man

[sweet grove]

np! we can address those things too!

[alpine ridge]

also will u be playing akuma? i started sf6 wanting to learn akuma eventually but i told myself id only do so after i get to masters with ken however long that takes me

akuma looks rly cool

[hardy parrot]

Jot b dropping ken for the angry man

But same tbh he looks sick

[sweet grove]

LOL

yeah i am dropping him as Ayer said @alpine ridge

but i can still teach ken while playing Akuma

[clear creek]

im probably just gonna play both

having a hard time learning akuma tho

[sweet grove]

for those of you interested, while my akuma isn't as optimal as my Ken, I was able to hit 1600 today and I'm starting to get a preliminary idea of how to play him

or at least how I play him

[sweet grove]

i just realized this looks like a weird flex LOL

i mention this if anyone needs some akuma tips

or another perspective on his gameplay

[clever reef]

@sweet grove I got a couple questions about Akuma, I've almost reached master and a bit unsure about somethings.

1. What are some good non corner combos? I mostly default going for the medium fire punch attack or light tatsu into shoryu/cr.hk. I feel like there are more optimal routes for some scenarios
2. What to use as meaty buttons? I seem to default to forward heavy punch because of sf5
3. How do I use the demon flips correctly. They feel a little awkward compared to 5 and I've been using them the same way as in 5.
   Thanks for the advice on ken too, I reached 1600mr with a bit of effort

Went right back down to 1500 but I got there!

[sweet grove]

Awesome to hear man! As for Akuma, take all of this with a grain of salt cause it's only day 4 Akuma but, I'll give you my perspective on these scenarios.

1. Depends on what your midscreen combo starters are. If you mean from a Cr.MK xx DR Cr. MP, I pretty much always go for St.MK xx light tatsu, Cr.HK, for oki, or if they are close enough to the corner, St.MK xx heavy tatsu. For meter dump from Cr. MK xx DR Cr. MP, I always do St.MK (to force stand) xx DR Forward.HP, Cr. HP xx light tatsu, Level 1 or Level 2 or heavy shoryu xx Level 3.

If you're looking for conversions from whiff punish, I only whiff punish from Cr. MK and Cr. MP into DR, in which case my combo structure is the same as previously mentioned. For St.HP, I buffer heavy adamant flame.

2. For meaty I always go for St. MP since it's +1 oB, frame traps and links into Cr.LP on hit, which then links into St.LK xx heavy shoryu. After a heavy shoryu ender (30f oki) you can frame kill with Cr.MP to get a +6 on hit and +3 on block St.MP so that it frame traps and link into itself.

3. Honestly, I currently don't use demon flip too much since instant air fireball is so broken. Only times I've used demon flip is to bait out DP.

[clever reef]

Thanks, I've only played ranked for 3 days so I thought I would get ahead of the curve a bit. I seem to have forgotten st.mk forces standing. No more whiffed light tatsu for me then.
I'll play around a bit with these in training later

[sweet grove]

st.hk also forces stand

but whiffs on blocking crouched opponents

[clever reef]

st.hk is real handy if I forget the last hit whiffs crouching opponents. Muscle memory is not quite there yet thanks to ken.
Overall Akuma is very fun to play if not a bit squishy

[sweet grove]

yeah, if u catch them stand blocking it leaves you + and on hit you get a fat combo

and yeah i totally agree, i really like akuma

u can also buffer st.hp into heavy adamant flame for free since it's only -2 oB

until they show u they interrupt or perfect parry

ez whiff punish and ez hit confirm for the second hit of adamant flame

[alpine ridge]

hi unfortunately i realised shotos arent for me and ive been playing zangief instead with a lot more success, i have some questions about general frame data and DRC:

why is it that when i sLK on block(-4) into DRC and cMK(9 frame startup), it trades with their fastest 4f on block reversal? im using gief’s move as reference

[sweet grove]

do you mean right after st. lk xx dr

your cr.mk from the dr trades

if they mash?

so block reversal from the st. lk xx dr

[alpine ridge]

yes, if they mash after blocking sLK

[hardy parrot]

All moves have their unique “frame advantage” from DRC, you just need to know what is what as there’s no consistent rule for lights. If you download the FAT app, you can click on the move and see frame data thats specifically for DRC on hit and DRC on block.

This lets you know after a DRC on block if its your turn or not and what moves would frametrap or not.

I use quotations because its an odd situation where you can cancel the DRC into a normal or special much earlier than you could choose to jump/block.

[sweet grove]

thank you! @hardy parrot

to add to this, i just labbed the hitstun from st. lk into cr.mk and, while it doesn't combo, it shouldn't leave a gap for them to challenge. on block there is exactly a 4f gap so it will trade

u probably want to DRC out of a st.lk into another light

that's generally how it goes

[alpine ridge]

oh wow

[alpine ridge]

ohh i see, that combo was given to me so idk

thanks! @hardy parrot @sweet grove

[main anvil]

thats a dope app, thank you!

[sweet grove]

1723 Master Ken/1650 Akuma Player Offering Coaching

[sweet grove]

1700 Ken/Akuma Player Offering Coaching

[rocky cliff]

Hey so I just picked up Ken and somehow my placement matches got me to silver with him but I feel like I'm stagnating now I can't even get a shoryuken in consistently, what's a good way to begin training Ken?

[sweet grove]

So, I'd say a good way to start with any character is to start with a very basic gameplan; really basic/easy to use tools that are also really strong.

And understanding why/how our tools work at a basic level - and how we can adapt them to what our opponents are doing.

But before that, it'd be great to get an idea of how you currently play Ken so, if you drop a replay ID for me to review, I think that would be a good place to start!

[rocky cliff]

Cool, will do 🙏

Tbh I am trash and I don't even know how I placed silver, it was my first time playing Ken and I'm like bronze/iron with my "mains"

But my friend was saying my Ken was pretty good so I wanna pursue him

[sweet grove]

Yeah no worries man, everyone at NCH is at different skill levels but, we can all help each other learn and get better

In no time I'm sure you'll be styling on people with Ken

[rocky cliff]

47F5UKFR5

YRMBPLKKF

[sweet grove]

@rocky cliff I just watched your replays and I think I have good idea of how you play now! Before we begin, I just want to ask a few preliminary questions:

How much experience do you have with fighting games?

What do you know about "frame data"

[rocky cliff]

I started playing fighting games about 5 years ago

I have a basic understanding of what frame data means but Ive never like studied it and I don't know what that entails

[sweet grove]

And that's totally okay!

How about some fighting game notation?

Like if I said Cr. MP xx 236HP

or Cr. MP xx QCF HP

do those mean anything to you?

[rocky cliff]

Crouching medium punch (dunno) quarter circle forward heavy punch

The numbers are like directions on a nuumpad

[sweet grove]

Cool! Yeah exactly so, people either use like shorthand for words like "crouching" or "standing", or they use numpad notation.

the xx refers to cancelling

[rocky cliff]

Oh for sure

[sweet grove]

meaning, some moves can be cancelled into a special move

do you know what a cancel is?

(sorry if this is super nerdy and frontloaded, I just want to make sure we have the tools to communicate)

[rocky cliff]

I get the idea don't know how to apply it

[sweet grove]

no worries! as long as you know what it is that's fine

okay! I think we can probably start with a basic gameplan

it's up to you how much you want to follow it but, I will say I have given this gameplan to another person in this thread

and they climbed from silver to plat 2

so I definitely recommend sticking to it if you're relatively new

First I want to describe to you "4 dimensions" of fighting games that we want to cover

Neutral:

This is when you and your opponent are standing mid-screen and are feeling each other out (kind of like in boxing/fighting when both fighters are just sort of dancing around each other, not throwing anything too committal)

Air:

The air is a dimension that can be interacted with by jumping or by using special moves that take to the sky. We want to make sure we know how to deal with opponent air approaches and we want to have some air approaches of our own.

Corner:

When someone is in the corner, they are naturally at a disadvantage because they are susceptible to DI and they have no room to move backwards to avoid attacks. We want to make sure we know how to keep our pressure when our opponent is in the corner and we want to make sure we know how to defend against pressure in the corner.

Knockdown:

When someone is knocked down, they are placed in a "knockdown animation" while the aggressor is still standing and able to move around. This puts the aggressor at an "advantage" letting them throw an attack that lands right as they defender gets up. We want to know how to pressure our opponent when they are knocked down and we want to know how to defend against pressure when we are knocked down.

We'll be using a few simple tools to tackle all 4 of these dimensions

I'll be sending them here via video

[rocky cliff]

Thanks, sounds good

[sweet grove]

For now, I want our neutral to look something like this:

Heavy Dragonlash, St. LP, St. LP, St. LP xx Light Kick Jinrai xx Light Kick Ender
Cr. MK xx Medium Kick Jinrai xx Light Kick Ender
St. HP xx Medium Kick Jinrai xx Light Kick Ender
Hadouken (Light, Medium and Heavy)
Run xx Heavy Kick

Air (Defense):

Air (Offense):

Also included is how we extend our pressure when they are knocked down on hit. If you see that this jump-in combo hits and they get knocked down by your jinrai, you Drive Rush after them and time a St. HP to land right as they get up.

Once they are knocked down, I want you to keep doing this loop:

Corner:

Once in the corner, I want you to keep doing this combo, followed by a "safe jump". It's safe because, as long as you also hold down back while you input Heavy Punch in the air, you will block an OD DP on wakeup, but you will also hit them if they don't block.

@rocky cliff This is our full gameplan for now.

If you have any questions lmk!

[rocky cliff]

Thanks Jot, I'll start practicing this 🙏

[limber basin]

yeah so out of a 2MK DRC 2LP (hit) with Akuma I am trying to do 2HP > L Tatsu > Sweep

it does about 1.8k dmg

mostly since it leads to clean reliable oki and gives me some options, like safejumps, double dash or a single dash and walking back to bait a reversal

another one I know I can do is out of 5HP, which is 5HP DRC 6HP 2HP L Tatsu and sweep

but that one I never did since I dont do 5HP that often as a poke

[sweet grove]

you gotta be careful of this tho if you hit them crouching, the L tatsu won't connect unless you force stand with 5MK or 5HK

[limber basin]

I prefer 2MP, 2MK or 5LK (need to use this one more)

[limber basin]

yeahhhhh

wait

[sweet grove]

let me propose something else instead

[limber basin]

doesnt 2HP restand

yeah it does

[sweet grove]

actually you're right! wow i didn't know this myself lmao

thank you for telling me that

[limber basin]

i was told this too haha

idr if it was either sestsze or zagreus

[sweet grove]

okay well, in that case it's fine but how are you finding your execution of it

and also, what do you do

in the event that they block

[limber basin]

if they block 2LP I try to do one, two at most

and go for a grab

[sweet grove]

okay, let me propose something to you which is easier IMO and has more time to hit confirm

[limber basin]

also, I have yet to start trying to do it in a match

tried once today, failed

[sweet grove]

This is way easier to do, and does more damage than the one you told me

and you have a lot of time to hit confirm since you drive rush into 2MP

trying to visually hit confirm after a drive rush jab is not really possible IMO

so you sort of have to commit to your string

but if you do a drive rush into a medium button

you have much more time to figure out what you're going to do

this is my personal BnB from a 2MK xx DR if i'm not cashing out for damage

[limber basin]

ooooo, and I'm +3 on block

[sweet grove]

yes exactly

and if it gets blocked

since you're +3

you can just go for 5MP target combo

[limber basin]

and I can go for strike/throw

[sweet grove]

into medium hadouken

yeah

exactly

and 5MP TC xx medium hadouken

is a true blockstring

so i recommend that

for your strike option

[limber basin]

hmmm, plus I'm finding easier to also do 2HP after 2MP

[sweet grove]

yeah exactly you can go for HP there too

[limber basin]

I'm -4 tho

ah

wait

-6

[sweet grove]

if you do 5MP target combo (5MP > 5MP) xx medium hadouken

you're -6

but it's a true blockstring

and they are way too far

to punish

[limber basin]

i'm trying to do it while

upclose on ryu

and if he does 2LP he PCs me

ig I have to space it a minimum

[sweet grove]

uhhh

he shouldn't be able to

[limber basin]

ah

maybe its cause

he is in the corner

[sweet grove]

oh yeah it's a corner thing

you need the pushback from mid screen

in the corner you can do OD fireball

and be +2

or you can go into demon flip

[limber basin]

uuuuh

fuck this is demonic lmao

[sweet grove]

lol what is

[limber basin]

that true blockstring

into od fireball

and then demon flip

[sweet grove]

yeah akuma is cheap

LOL

[limber basin]

well not enough to make up for lack of fundamentals

haha

[sweet grove]

honestly you can cheese with akuma for sure

i doubt many players at your rank will deal with demon flip chop that well

hell even in master they can't AA it reliably

also his teleport command grab is super cheap

so if u want to get around fundamentals

and just play cheesy

you can if u want

but yeah if you add this Cr. MK xx DR route

and also add a jump-in combo

i think those alone will help you level up

[limber basin]

I can do 5MK/2HP into l tatsu and sweep

that should be enough

[limber basin]

nah I wanna get good

like no cheesy or gimmicks

maybe after I get good I can start using them as a knowledge check

but even then, idk

I find it more fun to learn the game properly

[sweet grove]

If I may, I recommend this jump-in route. it's similar to the 2MK xx DR route, gives you more time to hit confirm

[sweet grove]

yeah that's fine too

but eventually you want to be using all akuma's tools

[limber basin]

whats the oki after heavy tatsu?

[sweet grove]

if they are close enough the corner

you can dash up

[limber basin]

that's the long-therm goal!!

[sweet grove]

and then walk up

for oki

[limber basin]

eehhh, idk

[sweet grove]

it's really good and you get more damage

• the added benefit

of it being an easy hit confirm

here i'll show you the application of oki

[limber basin]

hmmm

what if I catch them crouching

from that jumpin

[sweet grove]

it still hits crouchers if you're close enough (which you need to be to land the 5MP TC)

[limber basin]

what about jMK?

[sweet grove]

yeah you can do it from J MK too

[limber basin]

kk

[sweet grove]

i just propose the 5MP TC cause the buffer lets you hit confirm better

[limber basin]

TC?

ah target combo

[sweet grove]

target combo

[limber basin]

yeye I getcha

and with the M FB I can be safe

[sweet grove]

yep!

you have the option to be safe oB

and you have a nice combo on hit

and its easy to hit confirm

[limber basin]

oh right with OD FB

[sweet grove]

yep!

so try adding those to your gameplay and im sure you'll start winning more

since you'll have better conversions

and if you have any other concerns or questions lmk

[limber basin]

yeah the TC blockstring midscreem

off a jumpin

is so nice

tho other than that idk when I can get in range to do 5MP

since it's so stubby

[sweet grove]

you're only really going to use it as a blockstring when you're up close from a jump in, demon flip, or drive rush

in neutral it's fireballs

st. hp fireball

st. hp adamant flame

whiff punishing

f. hp

st. hk

etc

[limber basin]

i never do those

ngl

but other than that, yeah, I getcha, I do 6HP into 2MP on block

sometimes it catches them mashing

[sweet grove]

big recommend

only -2 on block

on hit you get huge damage

and you can even get oki