you can test it pretty easily
#JP Discussion and Help
grim lion
I can't test until I finish work
I saw Brian F do it in his recent tns run and it looked like it was a combo
On yeah if it hits meaty it does work
+3 on hit normally
Make it +4 and 2LP works
grim lion
Am I dumb about the numbers though? SA3 is +44. Forward dash is 22f, 6MK is 22f, so it hits on the first active frame and isn't meaty enough to combo?
shy vine
you're close
but you're off by 1
after you dash you're still +22
overhead is 22f, so it hits on frame 22
but on frame 22, the opponent isn't up yet
the first active frame whiffs
grim lion
Can you elaborate why you hit on frame 45 when you're only +44?
past panther
because if the first active frame hits then you re only +3
second one has to be the one hitting to be +4
grim lion
I get why you want to, but I'm asking why it doesn't hit
shy vine
you're +22
that means the opponent is down for another 22 frames
right
that means the first frame they are up is on frame 23
since they are still on the ground for another 22
grim lion
Cool, I was thinking normal combo rules where you want to use a move equal to or less than the advantage
Is there a low meaty that combos out of sa3?
shy vine
i mean you can combo out of cr lk normally
grim lion
Auto timed?
shy vine
i usually use portals or just do dash whif crr lk throw
you could do dash whiff cr lk into another cr lk as well
past panther
i saw brian F do dash b.mp or something
stolen from bananaken
i forget exactly what it was
grim lion
Not a combo but ghost can high/low after dash and it's just as safe?
past panther
wym?
past panther
wonder if you can fake ghost throw
shy vine
you'd be in range of 4f
you're getting punished if you fake ghost and they wake up mashing
grim lion
Can ghost trade?
shy vine
yes
grim lion
4f and ghost would hit together
shy vine
you might be a cool trade combo depending on the spacing
grim lion
It's 50f recovery and +6, there could be some options
That's a lot of recovery being canceled
And only 4f would trade in this scenario so it's predictable
It also beats every level 1 wakeup
Fastest is Luke's at 6f right?
past panther
did you lab?
grim lion
Yeah
past panther
bet
past panther
even light ghost gets punish countered
so it s too fast
grim lion
medium and heavy ghost get counter hit also
grim lion
I think dash 2LP 2MK should hit meaty but I'm not sure
I can't make it +4
oh I suck at mental math that's why
it's 46f including that frame kill, not 44
grim lion
i saw brian F do dash b.mp or something
does not connect
past panther
i gotta see the vid again
grim lion
I think the best options are really dash overhead or portal
grim lion
loses to jab
past panther
yea he was saying that
who s crazy enough to mash there
anyways good option to know
shy vine
not against super
shy vine
the situation of the opponent being knocked down must be delaying the speed of the point blank ghost
grim lion
It does beat Guile SA1
fluid juniper
do OD dp's work against ghosts?
grim lion
easily
They are full immune and for the dash forward ghost, you're right in their face
fluid juniper
got you, also I noticed some top JP's using command grab on thier opponents wakeup. Is this just a attempt to get more dmg or does it beat a option grab doesn't? It loks way more reactable
past panther
it s actually pretty hard to react to
and beats parry and block obv
lots of people love wakeup parry vs JP
fluid juniper
mental stack is a issue of course but I find it hard to imagine it being hard to see coming since the frame data is the same as in neutral which is rather reactable
probably a "o shit he did that" moment tho
grim lion
Just for reference, this is the exact HP the bnb SA3 kills
it's 22 HP overkill technically
BNB without SA3 kills here
Ending with OD spike + spike instead of standard spike ending
Why does OD ghost, spike do less damage than regular ghost, spike?
past panther
od ghost deals less damage than regular ghost
xd
it s that simple
but OD Ghost goes into sa1
which is still not helpful cause that combo deals about as much as normal ghost, od spike, spike
grim lion
When do you go for OD ghost?
portal snipe, 5HP xx OD ghost, spike maybe?
I haven't labbed options out of that so I don't know too much about it
grim lion
sure but 5HP is way more reliable
past panther
yes but way less reward
grim lion
Reliable isn't the right word, easier to confirm
grim lion
@shy vine can you explain why you use the options you suggest in the document? I'm going through it now
shy vine
which ones
grim lion
Original note:
After SA2 connects
Side Switch combo: 5HP Jump over H Portal, 5HP xx anything
Your note:
(i use cr MK here because it gives you time for more options, such as getting a fuzzy setup with OD portal with SA2, cr mk, jump over HP portal, dash HP xx spike, OD portal jump HK fuzzy) you can also do the double DI combo from here or f HK instead of the 2nd DI
shy vine
oh cause people get hit by the fuzzy
grim lion
Where does the 2MK go in? is that the Anything piece or replacing the 5HP?
shy vine
replaces the initial hp
if you use hp, you don't have enough time to do jump over, portal, dash HP
if you use cr MK instead (or another medium), you can jump over, portal, dash HP xx spike, OD portal, safe jump into fuzzy
st MK makes this work from 2 lights xx level 2
but cr MK moves you a bit forward so i use cr mk for heavy/medium starters
which is what i'm doing the vast majority of the time
shy vine
yes
grim lion
Safe jump just means it is a safe jump, not you're setting up a safe jump and then doing one?
so after OD portal, jump HK is a safe jump?
like no 2MP xx M spin
shy vine
yeah the OD portal doesn't pop
since you just set it up
so you do the safe jump
then you do fuzzy jump LK or a low
and then the portals pop and you get a f HK juggle
grim lion
Which low do you do with fuzzy?
shy vine
i would do cr MK
shy vine
yeah OD portal pops and yuo get a f HK juggle
grim lion
You're in the air though
shy vine
well you land
grim lion
so you have time to land and do 6HK?
shy vine
due to simulated gravity
grim lion
What do you do out of either 6HK?
grim lion
I really need an artist for this
What if you don't have the resources for oD ghost?
6HK xx M spin, 5HP xx spike or xx portal?
shy vine
yeah
grim lion
What if OD ghost, spike doesn't kill?
grim lion
yeah lol
shy vine
you can LP spin or level 1 there
shy vine
the fuzzies are really good
cause you have a lot of different ways you can get into them
grim lion
Might need a fuzzie section
shy vine
shy vine
it's not a fuzzy high low
since the high and the low hit within like 2 frames
rather than being a mix the point is being an unblockable
you're not doing a fuzzy in that situation
grim lion
You can just write that instead of your note
shy vine
i'm probably not going back in there
grim lion
Your comment was a replacement
shy vine
yeah because it seemed to be moderated
so i wanted to leave it up to whoever else to make the replacement
shy vine
yeah but it appears i didn't
grim lion
I really need to figure out a good design for this
cus word document sucks
It does not work well
It's not a linear series of ideas
I'm a shitty programmer but I'm thinking just translating it into python methods that have print statements for sections would be a better structure for understanding it, if entirely unreadable
fluid juniper
Should the title of the thread be changed to something like "JP character discussion"? I didn't realize this was here for a while because of the deceptive name
grim lion
It's been upgraded
grim lion
I vote we call it JPeers
fluid juniper
whats your preferred 12f punish? I was looking into st.hp PDR sthp > H spin but it does like 100 more dmg then just st.hp H spin and costs 1 bar
fluid juniper
ooo
grim lion
Just fixed the error that I forgot to update from the notes I think Lemon gave
Yeah def lemon, it's his video
past panther
maybe we should add the PC 5HP sideswitch combo
PC 5hp xx LH portal, stmk xx portal activation, walk under, f.hk xx m spin, spike
cobalt plume
I've been using this recently since I've been seeing BananaKen doing it almost all the time
Was so close to Master last night but kept coming up against this Luke player who I just could not beat
and it was like 3am so I kept getting matched with him
past panther
PP sandblast and punish
cobalt plume
Guy hardly used it, just rushed me down constantly
That Rashid flowchart thing is awesome, would definitely be worth trying to get one done for JP
grim lion
https://medal.tv/games/street-fighter-6/clips/1DzBuKUN-yjyPI/d1337jOSNN9a?invite...
Already in
shy vine
https://medal.tv/games/street-fighter-6/clips/1DzBuKUN-yjyPI/d1337jOSNN9a?invite...
it's crazy how you spend the 2 bars and you come out barely behind compared to just a back throw
past panther
yeah but the potential to go into corner mix is the valuable part here
grim lion
Also it's not just PP to get into that combo
shy vine
Kakeru has shown back throw into raw level 2 jump cr mk is nuts too
But yeah given the choice to st hp, you can do a juggle into the portal unblockable too
Which should be way better
past panther
ok so @grim lion i finally got to testing the post sa3 shit
indeed the best option seems to be f.mk since it beats jab and hits late enough to be +4 on hit and get a light combo
but ghosts have way bigger reward
they link into b.mp on hit
instead of just crlp
also you have the option of a low
so it s a risk that you take basically saying they will surely block
shy vine
best path i can find out of the unblockable
obviously at the end you can spend on OD ghost or set up portal or level 1 etc
it only does slightly more than just popping portal instead of doing the spike thing though
which is much easier
grim lion
So you need portal active going into sa2 for that one?
shy vine
yeah
grim lion
What's the unblockable start?
shy vine
what do you mean
grim lion
HP xx portal juggle, does that mean portal activate?
shy vine
no the juggle HP xx portal
you can start it on any portal though
like you could do a juggle HP xx OD ghost, spike, portal, b MP xx b MP xx level 2
and go from there
grim lion
Juggle with HP, start portal, then when they get up 5HP juggle, 5HK tc HP xx SA2?
shy vine
when they get up just do HK xx HP
grim lion
Is it just you need to be hitting them on block with SA2?
shy vine
the only requirement is they're blocking sa2 activation
and also you have a portal up that doesn't pop before you pop it
grim lion
Does portal duration reset on SA2 start?
shy vine
no
grim lion
What makes it unblockable?
Is it that 2LP xx portal activate, 2MK is timed perfectly for a high to hit at the same time?
grim lion
My math says 2MK hits at frame 55, but my research says the high projectile should hit at 66f
What am I wrong about?
grim lion
SA2 is a magic button pros use to win games
shy vine
sa2 should keep going during button hitstop i would think
just looking at the video though
it's clearly visible that the cr mk and overhead ghost hit very close together
grim lion
2LP = 6F
Portal Activate = 19 startup, 21 recovery (total 40f)
2MK = 9f startup
HIts on 6 + 40 + 9 = 55f
shy vine
cr lp hitstop as well
also are you counting the level 2 recovery
let me try to find a game i used it in and check the frames
grim lion
SA2 recovery is 7F
that makes it much closer, hits at 62 (low) and 66 (high) if I did it right
ok so 5HK tc HP xx SA2 is +13 on hit, and 5HK is 12f startup which is why that works.
grim lion
just trying to understand a different combo
shy vine
ahh
grim lion
The one I know better
grim lion
So what's wrong with my original math?
shy vine
hitstun probably
grim lion
That shouldn't matter?
shy vine
sorry
grim lion
It doesn't increase plus frames or anything, it just increases real time
shy vine
hitstop
grim lion
Unless I misunderstand hitstop?
shy vine
projectiles don't stop during hitstop
grim lion
really?
shy vine
yea
grim lion
Why?
shy vine
what do you mean why
grim lion
That seems weird
shy vine
imagine how stupid that would look
pretend a sonic boom is coming
and i hit you with a jump HK
and the sonic boom also freezes midair
grim lion
The whole game freezes though
shy vine
no it doesn't
grim lion
I definitely don't understand hitstop then
shy vine
i think you get the general idea
grim lion
I'm not convinced
grim lion
I mean I don't think I know the general idea of hitstop
shy vine
you have the generally right idea about the "game freezing"
but obviously some things don't freeze right
you an continue to charge charge moves etc
just test it with fireball
grim lion
I'm trying to understand it so I can figure out what might also work for unblockable setups that doesn't require a portal
shy vine
throw a super slow fireball, then dash past it and do some heavies on block and check if the fireball stops moving
grim lion
Hitstop isn't universal right?
shy vine
but also i know hitstop impacts level 2 cause of some other combos i was testing previously
yeah it's different for different strenghts
grim lion
Do projectiles apply hitstop?
shy vine
i don't believe so
grim lion
Is hitstop in FAT?
shy vine
i don't know
grim lion
I can't find it
I'm a bit salty everyone has told me hitstop doesn't matter and I found the case it does
shy vine
haha
i have a good one if you want to test actually
one sec let me check
i'll just test it and tell you
grim lion
Funny enough, to count hitstop you have to use replays or videos
can't see it in training mode
Well, can't track it in raw training mode
You could record the video and go frame by frame
shy vine
oh i got another great example
of hitstop mattering
you can't safejump honda with a heavy jump in but you can do it with a light
on his armor headbutt
grim lion
I don't understand
shy vine
which part
grim lion
All of it? Is Honda a projectile?
shy vine
no
he has armor
armor arbsorb causes the histop
but the headbutt startup continues during hitstop
so if you do a jump heavy
you have more hitstop
and you land later
grim lion
So he is a projectile?
grim lion
But he moves during hitstop
shy vine
but did i say only projectiles move during hitstop
birds can fly
doesn't mean airplanes are birds
grim lion
What else moves during hitstop?
shy vine
here's a video showing how projectiles keep moving during hitstop
if it stopped moving you would minimally see a little stutter
charge counter continues during hitstop, i suspect timers for stuff like juri SA2 probably continue to go down
hitstop only really impacts the character connecting with a move and a character who is blocking or getting hit by it
grim lion
9/11/13 for L/M/H according to the FAT discord
Which makes the math worse
Now it's
7 (sa2 recovery)
6 (2LP)
9 (2LP hitstop)
40 (portal activate)
9 (2MK)
Total = 71F
shy vine
cr lp is 4f
grim lion
No, it's 4F startup, 2F active, and then canceled
So we skip the recovery frames but the startup and active are still there
shy vine
lol
the 1st active frame and the 4th startup frame are the same frame
the 2nd active frame doesn't exist
it's cancelled
the last startup frame and the 1st active frame always refer to the same frame
of the overall move
grim lion
Yup yup, so now we're down to 69 frames, when it should be 68
shy vine
if you cancel a move immediately, subsequent actives and recovery are cancelled
well
when you do cr LP
the 1st active frame makes contact right
the engine might handle it by expanding that 1 frame into 9 frames of hitstop
You could test this easily by doing the thing I did with guile and Jamie in a real replay
And checking how many total frames cr mk has including hitstop
Alternately, there's a chance the overhead might hit later against crouching opponents
Or it could be both plus there's something else wrong lol
grim lion
Is pushback a concern in SA2 block strings?
shy vine
Yes midscreen for sure it can be
grim lion
Hmm, I think 5HK tc HP, 2MP should be 1f perfect setup
shy vine
None of those hit low or high?
grim lion
sorry 2MK
grim lion
Wait no I'm wrong, was looking at the wrong row
shy vine
I know that one has a decent gap
grim lion
16F = 2LP (blocked)
8F = 2LP hitstop
28F = 2MK (blocked)
10F = 2MK hitstop
9F = 2MK startup
Total 71
5f after 66f high projectile
shy vine
Try replacing the 2nd move with cr mp instead of cr mk
shy vine
For which, cr lp cr mk cr mk?
grim lion
2MK is 9F startup, not 7f, that's why
5f gap
Is that right?
Do you know the real gap I guess
shy vine
Sounds about right
I never tested it
Just gauge it by eye
Do you happen to have a video of it
So I can see it and visually confirm ballpark
grim lion
16F = 2LP (blocked)
8F = 2LP hitstop
24F = 2MP (blocked)
10F = 2MP hitstop
9F = 2MK startup
Total 67
1f after 66f high projectile
If we're right about how it's calculated
no video, just mathing
If that's true, that's the superior setup by far
shy vine
The issue though
grim lion
I have to go to bed lol
grim lion
shoulda showered an hour ago
shy vine
Let me know how it goes
shy vine
I try not to use it on block too much
I will do the cr lp cr mk though against players who I don't think can block it lol
Or I'll just do the
Light into hk xx hp xx high/low tc
Not expecting the hit but for the massive drive damage it does along with level 2
I neutral jump after activating level 2 a lot too
past panther
always thought about this idea
this particular one seems shit cause whiff in crouch
i wonder if there's some other way that works vs crouch
past panther
i ve seen it on the jp channel in sf6 resources
cobalt plume
https://youtu.be/2YFy-wiJgBg?list=PLh3HYRICstXfqXHc0mbuzeMzADPlo2IWR&t=440 i only found this vid the other day but its in here
but im not sure if this is a re-uploaded vid cause im sure half of these combos werent known in July
but who knows
grim lion
Think we can request a permanent channel when we break 5k messages?
grim lion
Can you rename it? Now that we've hit our goals and the purpose of this thread has changed, it's probably best described as "JP discussion" or something
Not sure if you have the power to rename it or not
grim lion
Sweet, and in 4-6 business months I'll have the miro diagram ready
shy vine
lol
grim lion
@shy vine looks like the 2LP, 2MP, 2MK pushes them out of range of the overhead ghost?
grim lion
sometimes though, not always
shy vine
probably depends on how close you are immediately after activation
grim lion
seems like it
It's like the closer I am, the pushback grows exponentially or something?
At mid range, it can sometimes hit, but hugging their face, it sometimes whiffs
probably help if I didn't have 8f gaps in my links
Is there a TAS I can use to write the inputs? I get a good test like 1 in 10
past panther
can you even do TAS combos in sf6?
grim lion
Look I suck at timing inputs
I just need it to hit the next button correctly so I can have a reliable test instead of random extra frames
past panther
ok i found some jap guy's twitter
full of weird tech
here's some of what i saved
@shy vine @oblique forum @grim lion
cobalt plume
- Men I Trust, nice 2. That backdash to bait the throw >_>>>>>
past panther
1. Men I Trust, nice 2. That backdash to bait the throw >_>>>>>
i didn't realise it would get my sound haha
yeah that's a good idea
past panther
whats best combo after amnesia back throw in corner? keep fluffing it
sthp xx anything u want
max damage sthp xx od ghost spike L spin
or just go into od portal loop
shy vine
some of this is cool some of it i want to scrub from my memory 
nah it's all good to know
past panther
some of this is cool some of it i want to scrub from my memory <:lul:43033667295...
haha
yeah
shy vine
giving up 1400 damage for a safe jump is too much though for me personally
past panther
a lot of his vids were whack or style points
past panther
giving up 1400 damage for a safe jump is too much though for me personally
i agree
shy vine
using 4 bars to activate level 2 on block for the mix is too much for me too
when you can get an unblockable with 0 bars
this one might be more reliable when they're not burned out maybe?
also in the corner i hate HP xx MK ghost xx level 3
cause it whiffs sometimes
it does more damage than spike or spin but i remember testing it and it just misses sometimes
i like the shimmy after OD amnesia
i don't know if i'll use it since a lot of players seem to be hitting buttons after that situation
but it's good to know
cobalt plume
WOOHOO
oblique forum
Congrats!
past panther
nice
oblique forum
whats best combo after amnesia back throw in corner? keep fluffing it
I like stHP m spin because that's a safe jump setup
fluid juniper
the safe jump after m spin in the corner needs to be manually timed right? I really need to learn it
shy vine
no you just jump
the st HP is manually timed
if you hit the st HP too high it's +43 instead of +42
you can tell though by how they juggle
fluid juniper
so you do st.hp, mspin buffer the jump hk and hold downback?
past panther
if you hit the st HP too high it's +43 instead of +42
M spin there is +42 - +44 and L spin is +41 to +43
if you hit high do L spin, if you hit low do M spin
past panther
so you do st.hp, mspin buffer the jump hk and hold downback?
yeah
fluid juniper
does that just always work when you get a m spin in the corner? Or only off of certain lead ins
shy vine
grounded MP spin is always a safe jump
if it juggles high is when it's gonna be more plus
but low st HP xx MP spin works
fluid juniper
gotcha, I will need to incorperate it into my gameplan. What is your thought process behind choosing to go for it over portal oki?
since it's pretty much always a choice between the safe jump and the spike > portal route no?
also, safejumps beat all wake-up options right? Like if they press anything thats not a reversal you hit them meaty and if they reversal or block?
shy vine
so
honda OD headbutt beats safe jumps unless you do a light safe jump
if you do the jump HK like we usually do, JP floats too long and eats the hb
since it has more blockstop
fluid juniper
OD amnesia "wins" agiainst safejumps but you are still hella minus, right?
shy vine
you're minus but invincible until you recover yeah
perfect parry a safejump makes the jumper -2
and lily enhanced DP beats safe jumps cause it's 4f
against zangief level 3 if you do a safe jump, you have to press up briefly as you're about to land
cause if you hold downback you'll land and get planted into the ground
fluid juniper
is that a read or can you os it?
also against PP the counter play is to just empty jump and throw right?
shy vine
you OS it
you do a safe jump, hold up briefly as he would land if it doesn't hit something, then let go of jump during the blocked jump-in
hold on i made a video for somebody a bit ago
fluid juniper
Neat
oblique forum
also, safejumps beat all wake-up options right? Like if they press anything that...
You can also Option select amnesia
You jump and when you're about to land you press kick and DD kk
If they block low or try to mash the jump hits. It they block high then nothing happens. If they try to OD reversal the amnesia goes
fluid juniper
Wild. And pursumably there is some 8k dmg combo you get off that
oblique forum
Yeah something like that
cobalt plume
You jump and when you're about to land you press kick and DD kk
If they block l...
Press kick and down down kick x2? What
oblique forum
You press kick to do jHK
And as you're about to land do the OD amnesia
Check my inputs on the video above
shy vine
if you guys use the dr cr MP, st HP xx spike after hp spin midscreen use HP spike cause it's +46 instead of +44 like medium
minor difference but it's just better
when close enough to the corner obviously getting f HK xx M spin into st HP is better though
also don't forget the nemo combo for meter build midscreen
hp spin, dr HP xx HK, HP xx spike
only useful for extra meter gain to get the kill with level 3 but
it is useful in that instance
oblique forum
HP xx HK?
shy vine
oh yeah
dr HP drc st HK
it's janky lookin
it spends a lot of drive guage for not much damage
but it does a chunk of meter build
super specific scenario combo
fluid juniper
https://discord.com/channels/195518118603390977/1198423356853194833
I made a new thread specifically for JP replay reviews, feel free to post any of your games in there!
fluid juniper
I was also practicing safe jumps and I am confused about how they work. I think there was some miscommunication here since pressing j.hk has to be manually timed on the way down from your jump. I am able to block the OD reversal but it's hard for me to tell if any given attempt would also have hit meaty. I have the bot doing 50/50 block/reversal but it doesnt really help cause if I press early and they block I wont know or if I press late and the reversal I wont know
shy vine
well there's 2 different things you're testing there @fluid juniper
1 is: am i hitting the button at the right time
2 is: am i timing the safe jump correctly to block
the good news is, if you do st MK xx MP spin, it's just hold up forward so you can't mess up the 2nd part
when you press the button doesn't impact when you can block when you land
so you might want to turn off the reversal and just practice hitting the button at the right time
fluid juniper
ah, so even if I mess up the meaty timing I can still block the reversal, thats good to know
is there a better/worse outcome if they block the jump in. Or is the only goal to get them to block on wake up?
rihgt now I always seem to be +11 no matter how I change up the timing
shy vine
yeah it's always gonna be +11
cause you hit them then you land the next frame
it doesn't matter which active frame you're hitting the mon
past panther
so sthk has a 1f gap for them to DP in
tbh it might be easier to just do it without the bot pressing shit first
and making sure you're getting a consistent +42
+41 is gonna be losing to 5f dp already if i'm not mistaken
btw @shy vine versus Lily can we still empty jump delay tech?
since Lily mains know they beat safejumps they might be tempted to do it
shy vine
tested and found something interesting
played this game, afterwards i was thinking "could i have killed if i spent 2 bars on the last combo"
tested it afterwards, turns out no, it doesn't kill (barely)
it's like 30 damage short
but the right way to approach the situation like this is actually not spending super, and using it later to chip them out
using the safe jump to start a true string
cause guess what? turns out level 1 does more chip damage than fully scaled damage, 700 chip vs 600 damage
this is a super specific scenario, but the general case is that if the opponent is burned out, it might be better to actually set up a chipout sequence instead of maximize combo damage
even when the combo can kill with super 1, sometimes you can probably get the kill guaranteed with a chipout meterless
even if you have to spend super, the blockstring builds you more of a meter differential for next round
since moves on hit give you opponent 70% of the meter you gain, but moves on block give only 50%
you can see the meter gain differential
shy vine
no
other than in the beginning when i do cr mp
the only gap in that string is b mp b mp xx od ghost
and that's a projectile so it will body level 1s
the string against jamie is a true string completely
HK xx HP xx OD ghost is a true string
OD ghost HP spin is a true string
HP spin b MP is a true string
shy vine
https://medal.tv/games/street-fighter-6/clips/1QLtsUh0sts0vT/d1337gkPQv0O?invite...
probably needs to be a single loop into level 1 in this specific situation
since the opponent will have more drive here since the safe jump is a jump HK in a real game
shy vine
wait the level 1 does 500 not 700 for chip my bad lol
oblique forum
@shy vine what blockstrings do you use for when they're not yet on burnout but no sa2 available yet?
shy vine
@oblique forum depends on the situation and what i'm trying to do
like if i'm trying to do drive damage, HK xx HP is really good for that
st HP xx ghost is great
LP ghost being a little faster
oblique forum
So nothing as long as those in the video or that other chars have?
shy vine
what kind of strings are you thinking about
oblique forum
So, i get them on the corner.
I usually am stuck if they block strings like these or tech my throw and then I'm not quite sure what to do, if i try to go close to hit a button they either jump or get a CH , IF i go back in Aa range then my pokes don't reach.
But chars like ken cammy and Jamie i feel like they can keep pressing buttons fishing for a mistake of the blocker for a longer time
Even if some of the stuff are fake
shy vine
how did you get them in the corner
most of the time when i get opponents in the corner
i also have an opportunity for a portal situation
as i get them in
oblique forum
Yeah, something like i knocked them down with a spike and set portal.
I go for a meaty HK, they block and i do the TC and then the portal pops
Now I'm far to hit, no portal and awkward space
shy vine
huh
if you're close enough to do HK target combo
after the portal pops you are super plus close to them
also you can end the TC in a high/low ghost that combos into portal for a f HK pickup
target combo moves you close and the portal gives you the plus frames
oblique forum
ร h so Ghost knockdown gives a safe portal? I haven't been using this
Only full screen against the juris of the world
shy vine
well high low ghost don't knock down grounded
in the situation you gave you you have a portal set up in the corner then the opponent blocks HK xx HP
if they get hit by high low ghost here the portal picks them up
grim lion
It's kinda crazy, this channel is more active than the entire JP discord
oblique forum
It's a smaller group ๐
cobalt plume
Think most people in the JP Discord got bored lol
Tell you what, playing in Master is so different, people do some crazy shit
DI from midscreen? Here you go
The game felt more fun in D4/D5
grim lion
What's our forced knockdown combo?
Such as stuffing Kim elbow drop or JP portal or Ken dragonlash?
past panther
stlp (juggles) sthp xx spike or ghost
for dhalsim too
for kim elbow drop you just cr.hp
past panther
also bro
for kim it's really common for her to bait crhp with early elbow drop
that's why in that MU you gotta AA with sthk at those angles
grim lion
I'm used to it
I played Cammy first, they love baiting DP
If you do get the forced knockdown with 2HP, do you just H spin after?
past panther
yea
grim lion
man that's so much damage I've been leaving on the table
I stop JP teleport with 2HP almost every time
and then do nothing
past panther
ah yea that s a free launch
oblique forum
@shy vine and others, is there any frame kill to help get the OD amnesia first ghost or does it need to be manually timed?
I either go too early or late
grim lion
What's the goal you're going for? Ghost hits just before bomb?
oblique forum
I will record
grim lion
Because amnesia has 17f recovery in success, and it's 59f bomb startup so 42 frames there
shy vine
You delay the portal but you do everything else as fast as possible
You hit cr mp or st mk or whatever, then you do hp portal just before the first bomb pops, then you do everything else as soon as your character can
cobalt plume
Yeh literally do everything as fast as possible
with the latter, I do the portal once JP's kicking leg is almost back to neutral
oblique forum
I want to do the m ghost spike m ghost spike sa3 at the end
But the ghost hits at all times that doesn't make the second ghost connect or whiffs entirely
This is the combo in the doc
OD Amnesia against Throw combo:
2MP, H Portal, M Ghost, H Spike, M Ghost, H Spike (SA3 potential)
(side topic, i just won a round perfect ending with the safe jump OD amnesia, that felt good)
past panther
youโre doing portal way too early
gotta do H portal just before the first bomb explodes
itโs not a cancel
cobalt plume
Does one of you guys wanna pin the guide link? Could be handy
oblique forum
Can't on threads ๐ฅฒ๐ญ
shy vine
past panther
based lemon
past panther
well lemon is a mod and I created the discussion
so that's probably why you couldn't
oblique forum
Aah
cobalt plume
thx geeze
ionic stone
still available for this?
past panther
yep
grim lion
@ionic stone If you want, you can also look at the pinned document for the notes we've gathered here
It's not the best organized, I'm planning to rewrite it but that'll take a long time
ionic stone
<@714537941824962691> If you want, you can also look at the pinned document for ...
what does blender stand for?
past panther
blender in fighting games means a situation where you have to guess a lot
so JP's blender means the opponent has to guess high/low/throw/shimmy and also some instant overhead layers
grim lion
what does blender stand for?
It's a distinct section in the document
With notes on your options and how you can go for damage, oki, sa2, resets
past panther
@grim lion just noticed the shorthand notes lack a description for what "spin" is like the others do
grim lion
Huh, I thought I got them all
past panther
i don't see 236p
past panther
i will get on the doc tomorrow and add all the post- OD Portal options
ionic stone
the drive rush 2mp after heavy spin was giving me trouble for time, after i cleaned up my drive rush and followed the instructions in the doc, it was a breeze
grim lion
Yeah it's so tough for me
Never hit it in a game
I'm gonna get masters and be able to do only a quarter of the document lol
shy vine
Do you have st hp xx od ghost, spike into normal portal in there
grim lion
Nope
past panther
Do you have st hp xx od ghost, spike into normal portal in there
same as sthp xx OD spike into normal portal no?
isn't the only thing that opens the possibility of a throw thay juggles?
seems hardly more useful than od portal but i suppose variance is importnat
shy vine
The combo does more damage
grim lion
400 hundred more damagee by the looks of it
shy vine
And the conversion after throw is just as good so I usually go for this when I want to go for throw
I didn't know people were doing od spike into portal
grim lion
That seems less optimal
grim lion
update, lost 6 in a row
past panther
any thoughts here?
hmm, maybe say 5lp/2lp since both work, and maybe we add corner route for full burnout? but that can be tricky cause it's pretty spacing dependent so maybe not for now
grim lion
I actually input 4LP but it's the equivilent to 5LP and has the direction ahead of time for the 4MP
past panther
honestly i think you're getting better stuff from going into a sa2 combo from b.mp mp into a corner route into sa1 but im not sure. I remember numbers looking better than just normal combo into sa3 for some res. @shy vine do you know for sure?
past panther
I actually input 4LP but it's the equivilent to 5LP and has the direction ahead ...
im starting to believe 2lp is a bit more lenient for some reason, so i ve been using that
cobalt plume
any thoughts here?
As an "old school" player, reading these hurt my head so much
Hate the keyboard writing
grim lion
numpad format
cobalt plume
Ye whatever it is
This the Akuma guide I learnt from from 3rd Strike
That's one of the best guides to ever exist
past panther
ah, well an actual old school player would say low forward instead of 2mk/cr.mk
jab - lp
strong-mp
fierce - hp
short-lk
forward-mk
roundhouse-hk
highkey doubt a gamespot guide is one of the best to ever exist
but seems very detailed
looks sort of like a slightly more in depth version of what sestze did for every sfv character
cobalt plume
ah, well an actual old school player would say low forward instead of 2mk/cr.mk
...
The guides I used to read for SF2 were pictures in a handbook you bought from a computer shop. Once Internet came it was notepad and drawing the motions with --p or --k then it got more readable when people realised it was easier to write cr. or st.
shy vine
honestly i think you're getting better stuff from going into a sa2 combo from b....
what's the question?
past panther
what's the question?
if lights DRC b.mp mp xx sa2 combo into corner stuff into SA1 is more damage than lights DRC bmp mp DRC crhp xx H spin M ghost H spike xx sa3
shy vine
no way
past panther
interesting
i remember the optimal sa2 combos getting pretty high damage
but then again scaling on sa1 is ass
deals like 600 dmg
shy vine
you mean 600
when the opponent is burned out ending the cmobo and going for chip is better a lot of the time too
cobalt plume
UK magazine in 96 showed the combos like this
cobalt plume
if lights DRC b.mp mp xx sa2 combo into corner stuff into SA1 is more damage tha...
Bananaken uses this a lot and a lot of times he'll take the sa2 with a combo to set up a fuzzy to get the sa1 without scaling
@shy vine is the punish counter St.hp xx OD Portal, st.mk, snap, f.dash, f. hk xx h.swipe in the guide? Can't open it on mobile
shy vine
for what, side switch? MP spin after f HK
cobalt plume
Ye
ah yeah it is
just got home and labbing before bed at 3am
for funsies you can also do PC 5HP xx OD (L+H) Portal, 2MK xx MP spin, forward dash x2, 5HP xx OD Ghost xx OD Spike, Spike, SA3
6160 damage
grim lion
There's no file type there
cobalt plume
Yeh I know
I've had a few beers 
lol @ at my framerate going to 49 on the SA3
on a 4090
ah well bed time gnight guys
grim lion
Why does portal spike always fucking miss?
I just had it whiff 4 times in a row on a jumping opponent
past panther
huh?
past panther
what game was lagging super hard cause they were rendering every individual tooth? i remember sm like that
ionic stone
why 
fluid juniper
Ikr!
past panther
actually really enjoyed watching it
reminded me of the days of Oro VT optimisation videos
fluid juniper
I'm so glad optimizations like these are in the game. the situational awareness and tech skill to actually pull off even a reasonable version of this combo is crazy
past panther
no bro you're just boosted cause you play jp
in all reality, I fight so many clueless JPs in high diamond and low master with all of these climbs that it's not even funny bruh, this char do be boosting some people. But I'm glad he has all of this insane potential and fun stuff, which means that even after a nerf next patch he will still be fun to play
fluid juniper
Oh yeah, I do agree that a lot of online jps are clueless. But that's more a issue with the general player base not knowing how to run at jp. If people were good at rushing him down they wouldn't be "carried". Also I don't have a reason to care about if other ppls ranks are "legitimate"
ionic stone
8FQVKCCRL - First game
5WW6UQCRU - Second game
JP vs Marisa
@past panther
past panther
so, i will type as im looking at the replay
first game:
1- round start ghost is a VERY bad idea because of...well what happened in this match haha. usually at round start you want to either chill, backdash, or do DR cr.mk/jab. round start ghost will lose to DR, a bunch of different skip specials (dragonlash/spin knuckle types) and forward jumps
2- didn't check the DI, happens. know that if you are hit mid air with marisa stmp mp, it will always air reset you, so there you should have been more ready to block or challenge.
3- didnt react to her whiffing her route and got thrown
4- went for safejump route but jumped waaay too late, plus safejumps aren't as valuable against marisa because she has no DP to use anyways and her OD scutum beats safejumps, so just go for sthp xx portal and go for meaty sthk into high/low
5- messed up conversion from stmk, happens
6- messed up corner stun combo
that was round 1
for round 2:
1- exactly the same thing happened as round 1, went for round start ghost, got f-ed for it
2- when you anti air with cr.hp, make sure to cancel it into high/low ghost for a free poke
3- didn't punish marisa f.mp mp target combo properly, but it s a matchup experience thing so it s fine, at least you got some damage in
and the rest of the round was won without too many errors and a slight scramble
round 3:
1- stuff happened, missed the check on superman punch
2- you were pressing medium punch while blocking a light string for some reason and got counterhit and knocked down for it
3- messed up your delay tech and got combo-ed for it
4- good sa3 there, but that setup with command grab is usually pretty damn bad versus burnout because the command grab can just whiff, and doing it in a situation like that versus a high damage dealing char like marisa is a big risk, so just go for the high/low
5- got baited to anti air outside of crhp range and ate sa3. lesson to start using f.hk to anti air at those ranges
this was game 1 as I saw it
it looks like there s a bunch of stuff that you have to lab to get more consistent
cause it s costing you games
lemme take a look at game 2
round 1:
1- round start DI on reaction to DR, sometimes works but usually doesn't. it's a slight misconception that marisa DR is weak to DI, since the risk reward is so much still in her favor if she counters it.
2- woke up mashing light punch, happened to work fine but almost always a bad idea unless you got a callout on a shimmy
3- i notice in these games you are very much afraid to get up close and personal. you think too much like a zoner and don't use some of your best tools (crmk, sthp, stmp, crmp). you should be trying to get all up in his face too and taking your pressure, not just waiting full screen and hoping he messes up on the way to you.
4- rest of the round was relatively fine. what cost you the round was not really using the proper punish or extending your combo on her stance overhead, and not anti airing her there at the end. You tend to just not anti air if it s not in crhp range and it s allowing your opponents to get very close for free. start using f.hk and practice the extension from it. you get crazy reward from an AA.
round 2:
actually my internet got extremely cooked and it kicked me out of SF, but this should be enough to go on so far. let me know whatever is unclear and we ca talk about it
shy vine
i managed to antiair a jump with JP level 3 for the first time
past panther
had to be a pretty far jump-in and hit sa3 like peak of jump xd
shy vine
It was pretty close but yea I got the peak
ionic stone
@past panther Thanks for the write up, made a list from this of things to work on from this, things to start doing in matches immediately like 2HP xx low or high ghost, what to lab (punishes for things I let slide, drills for DI, and delay teching) and what to focus on in the match against Marisa and general opponents.
I wanted to ask about the high low ghost mix in the corner, 214HP -> Meaty 5HK into low or high ghost. What drill can I run to practice this? For post level 3 oki, what is the best thing to go for? And for F.HK is it better to spend 3 bars DRC or no bars for a spike, what is the best conversion for the amount of meter? Thank you.
past panther
<@181487530661773312> Thanks for the write up, made a list from this of things t...
Iโll answer all of those in a sec
past panther
so, for the corner mix I mentioned I can send you a video of a couple of examples of possibilities there in a sec.
for post level 3 oki, you have the following options:
- dash f.mk (will be +4 on hit since it hits meaty so you can confirm into crlp)
- dash M/H Ghost (has a low option, will link into b.mp on hit for a bigger combo than f.mk, but it loses to mashing unlike f.mk)
- M H portal route into command grab tick throw that you already know (this one is bad versus burnout because you have to delay the command grab since you will be too plus, and you end up in their face so if they mash you lose out and you also spend a lot of meter)
- M H portal route into PDR b.mp mp xx M or H ghost (this is a high/low mix) and the followup if it hits is DR f.hk xx H spin into corner stuff
im sending a recording now
of all the stuff
shy vine
i like dash whiff cr LK into throw
past panther
uu that s nice
im thinking there s no real threat after dash if they just walk back tho
which is a pity
i guess u gotta commit to low ghost
but i like the safety of f.mk
past panther
oh nice
past panther
i managed to antiair a jump with JP level 3 for the first time
did this today too but
marisa did forward jump on oki, i did wakeup sa3
my sa3 went backwards and hit her and won me the round
past panther
@keen valve sup
keen valve
yo
past panther
was looking for a game but hopped on BG3 after all
this is the jp discussion with the doc in the pins
past panther
@grim lion i looked through the whole doc and made a bunch of changes. let me know what you think
past panther
ok done
added a title and everything so it looks a bit more organized
removed some repeating or redundant stuff, added some missed routes, cleared up some wordy parts, added context to some options, etc
grim lion
yeah that's a lot of notes
past panther
take a look when you have time, no hurry obv
I just went over them cause I realised I didnโt contribute directly so I thought I should lend a hand
past panther
boys, do you think we can get together today or so and finish the last details on the doc so far so we can get it in a more widely shareable format? or at least make the link View Only and maintain suggestion priviledges to those of us here or something?
Iโd like to share it around but donโt want @grim lion to get his email spammed with random ppl suggesting stuff that may or may not be true
oblique forum
i'm travelling for work this week, so won't have time ๐ฆ
fluid juniper
does 5hp xx spike into portal not work here? Is there a reason to jsut summon portal without the spike?
does 5HP xx ghost always lose to lvl 3? Or can you fake ghost to make it safe?
oblique forum
Is there a reason to jsut summon portal without the spike?
If I'm low on meter and don't want to do the OD portal, then I do this
because 5HP xx portal is safe, but 5HP xx spike portal isn't
fluid juniper
oh right mb, it's early lol
also I have been seeing a lot of JP's use PDR b.mp in neutral. It seems like a powerful option since you can tick throw, or frametrap on block
I also might be missing something else about the move that makes it a good option
oblique forum
yeah, I see ppl using it but didn't get it either
past panther
does 5hp xx spike into portal not work here? Is there a reason to jsut summon po...
spike and then portal leaves you pretty minus there
past panther
also I have been seeing a lot of JP's use PDR b.mp in neutral. It seems like a p...
yea itโs cool, also easy to confirm, leaves you closer, has a pretty good hitbox, etc
past panther
does 5HP xx ghost always lose to lvl 3? Or can you fake ghost to make it safe?
it always loses
unless you can make it a true blockstring ig? not sure if L or OD ghost does that but i doubt it
fluid juniper
Also is 6hk PC, 5hk anything? it combos I just dont know about followups/ damage comparison
past panther
Also is 6hk PC, 5hk anything? it combos I just dont know about followups/ damage...
wym?
fluid juniper
is it ever worth going for instead of a different option
past panther
from PC 6hk?
fluid juniper
like yeah if your opponent is -12 should you punish with 6hk 5hk or just 5hp/2hp?
fluid juniper
okay gotcha
past panther
where is this? it s incorrect
fluid juniper
past panther
yeah, on counter it's the blender, on hit it doesn't lead to the juggle so that s wrong
i ll change it now
actually
it leads to 6hk on hit too
on hit it should be 6hk stuff, on counterhit it should be another 5hk
since it combos into itself
so i ll change that
okay done
anything else @fluid juniper ?
i ll hop ingame and test if it s worth to go for that 6hk stuff you mentioned
fluid juniper
anything else <@981672676475142175> ?
i'm still looking over it, this document is really coming together I am impressed ๐
past panther
yeah it s starting to look good
i wish we had some like
shortcuts on the left to get you to specific sections
idk how to do that though
fluid juniper
isnt "juggle 5hp" also just the blender again? More like this is just a route out of the blender that leads to a safejump
past panther
isnt "juggle 5hp" also just the blender again? More like this is just a route ou...
no it's not, it s from the blender
so 5hp juggle goes into blender, which is a loose term for all the options you have after
one of those options is M spin which gives a safejump
fluid juniper
I scrolled ahead and noticed m spin is listed in the blender section. so it's not really a mistake it's just listed in the doc twice.
past panther
oh lemme see that
hmm, well it s relevant
since it s under Blender and also under Safejumps
i think it s fine
fluid juniper
I feel like the safejump section could have a section about how it works. If I didn't know anything I am not sure how helpful that section would be. But if you dont want to just explain the basics of safejumps It does seem fine
past panther
so @fluid juniper i still don t get what you mean with the PC 6hk
past panther
I feel like the safejump section could have a section about how it works. If I d...
good idea, i ll add that
past panther
so <@981672676475142175> i still don t get what you mean with the PC 6hk
since it launches, where do you connect the 5hk?
you mean 6hk DRC 5HK 5HP?
fluid juniper
๐คฆโโ๏ธ i messed up the notion. it's supposed to be 5hk > 6hk
past panther
you mean 6hk DRC 5HK 5HP?
this is also possible and decent midscreen if you want to save a weird conversion
from an AA
okay look at these numbers @fluid juniper
fluid juniper
this is also possible and decent midscreen if you want to save a weird conversio...
thats kinda crazy XD. I need to work on my f.hk AA's I get grappler jumped all the time
past panther
thats kinda crazy XD. I need to work on my f.hk AA's I get grappler jumped all t...
one of the most valuable things here fr
here is damage comparison on PC options in the corner
you can see how insanely good 5HK 6HK is when u look at scaling and shit
seems like PC 5HP isn't the best in the corner
cause of scaling and shit
like, you get more damage METERLESS from that than with 3 bars from the others
@shy vine what do you use for corner punishes? I used to do 5hp but after this test it s clear to me that this is better if you re not doing a double OD portal combo
shy vine
St hk, f hk xx hp spin
Hp spin is better cause you get a forward dash
So you're closer for your oki
past panther
<@291275585131511808> what do you use for corner punishes? I used to do 5hp but ...
actually not even... the double OD portal route is the same damage
it s insane how much it scales
fluid juniper
what about midscreen? PC st hk, fhk xx something is also a option
fluid juniper
I think DRC/PDR st.hp h spin still works
past panther
lemme see
3722 with PC 5HK 6HK DRC 2HP xx H spin, M ghost H spike
2822 with PC 5HP PDR 2HP xx H spin etc..
3812 with PDR PC 5HK 5HK 2MP DRC 2HP xx H spin etc...
so it seems like PC 5HP scales the next attack to 80%
but PC 5HK does not
so you get 2 attacks at 100%
so there s big differences
@shy vine midscreen what do you use? this seems like the way tbh
unless you have time to do PDR PC 5hk
fluid juniper
Credit where it's due, I saw this in Remiri's punishing the cast series. which is really useful in general: https://www.youtube.com/@RemiriFGC
shy vine
Midscreen I just do cr hp xx hp spin
Starting with st hp immediately scales to 80%, but starting with cr hp doesn't
fluid juniper
Also for the BnB, is there a difference between xx 5hp, and xx 2hp? I saw banana ken doing 5hp so it's probably fine right?
past panther
that's 3120 damage but 3 less bars
shy vine
So cr hp xx hp spin, Dr cr mp st hp xx spike is great
past panther
Also for the BnB, is there a difference between xx 5hp, and xx 2hp? I saw banana...
same shit, same damage
shy vine
Yeah if it's already part of the combo
Cr hp is faster
So medium drc of course
You gotta go with that
past panther
So cr hp xx hp spin, Dr cr mp st hp xx spike is great
this is 3048 dmg
less damage but closer oki for 1 bar
shy vine
+46
past panther
im getting +44 on H spike from midscreen
shy vine
What spike do you use
shy vine
If it doesn't put them all the way in the corner, hp spike hits a bit late so you get more plus frames
past panther
since they re in the corner already
past panther
yea +46 if they re not close to corner
gettin it now
so i suppose just portal here, or OD portal into spike perhaps
shy vine
If they're in the corner, st hp xx portal or spending on od portal would be better for oki
Assuming you didn't path to f hk
shy vine
No
past panther
beats their DI
fluid juniper
Unless its further down or I missed it I do not see a section for corner combos. there are a few references to things that only work in the corner but I dont see specfially the max damage corner routes you have been discussing
shy vine
It's good to have though I think
I assume though it only works if they counter DI right
past panther
Unless its further down or I missed it I do not see a section for corner combos....
the blender is that
all corner options
shy vine
Otherwise it's just plus frames
past panther
I assume though it only works if they counter DI right
yeah
it beats their counter DI
it s DI bait
shy vine
Yeah idk
past panther
good to whip out
shy vine
It's good to have but other od portal options are so good