VGC Rates

[wild sinew]

Main issue is that it's unviable rn

[austere wasp]

The only thing id use lum is prankster twave shenanigans, because like wow usually can be koed easily, and u have farig

[wild sinew]

One thing I've caught on though is that you're new to VGC? Would recommend pre existing teams to get better and understand the format before building

[digital sierra]

other than that its good?

[austere wasp]

Yeah

If ur afraid of spore go goggles

[digital sierra]

im afraid of wisp

[mossy arrow]

Ive already made it to master ball tier with a rental. I wanna win with a team of my guys, and get a ribbon for them.

[wild sinew]

Well firstly, hazards, and subsequently boots, have 0 relevance in vgc

You do for options like Tera Blast Flying when Roaring Moon gets access to Acrobatics

Most of the members lack synergy

As in you have dominant speed control in Tailwind and Trick Room backed up by Icy Wind/T wave, but you don't have enough things to adjust this

[mossy arrow]

Hm. I see, so a change in items for ninetales, or just change them overall? As for the tera blast, it's supported by the users stronger attacking stat right? And I have scarf on roaring to outspeed sweep if I can't get the job done on others. But yea I can see the lack of coverage, but I don't know what could supplement them, as I center the team around keeping dirge alive and in charge for as long as possible.

[wild sinew]

Acrobatics is physical which is Moon's higher attacking stat

To summarise it; you're using too much support in an attempt to support an already passive pokemon

[digital sierra]

im pretty sure acrobatics has a higher BP after consuming a booster energy too

[wild sinew]

Sorry if I sound rude

[mossy arrow]

Ohhh!!

Nah nah if you didn't say I wouldn't have noticed. Thanks!

What are some changes I could do

[wild sinew]

Oh my bad
Forgot about Acro being 55, but you could go Booster speed and have it be 110 yeah

[mossy arrow]

I could, but scarf keeps it at 55.

[wild sinew]

I'm generally not sure how to make skelidirge not seem like a burden but your best bet is to stick to an already strong core along with skelidirge

So you could have like Tornadus, Chien pao, Ogerpon
or Cresselia, Ursaluna, Iron Hands

[mossy arrow]

Luna physical or special

[wild sinew]

Physical ideally

[mossy arrow]

Yea thought so too.

Hmm.

Thing with trick room teams is if the team can't kill in 5 turns, it turns into burden. I guess it's counterintuitive for skeledirge who gets stronger the longer he's on the field.

[wild sinew]

You could do screen structures if you want to go for it as one of the sweepers

[mossy arrow]

Welp, of you have any mons with sets you can share, please HMU. Imma rearrange some stuff based on your advice. Thanks!

[wild sinew]

Good luck

[mossy arrow]

Right! Screens could work!

[wild sinew]

You can look at Alolan Ninetales teams on victoryroadvgc.com

[mossy arrow]

It's so weird how there's rarely any brick break these days huh, but I guess not since flutter mane is so present all the time.

[digital sierra]

the only issue is that ogerpon and urshifu easily ruin screen strats, but if you build around them you should be fine

ive also seen examples of some harc variants (specifically AV) run psychic fangs, so thats also something to account for

[mossy arrow]

Does the rank reset every month?

[digital sierra]

i think it resets every couple of months

[wild sinew]

Just too weak of a move for most pokemon to run it

And it's only good vs screens which isn't that popular

[mossy arrow]

Fair.

Ok. I'll give screens a shot.

[uneven fog]

is this channel also for team building?

i havent played for a good while and have an outdated team

[wild sinew]

Unfortunately not, you can get help updating it in other servers or one of the competitive general channels.

[uneven fog]

thank you

didnt want to spam

[near smelt]

https://pokepast.es/960b77b1826deeb1 One of the first competitive teams I'm building for an upcoming tournament - would appreciate any advice (especially for spreads I'm not sure) ^^ thanks!

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[distant stump]

I think the team itself is fine honestly, I could see regular Ursaluna filling the slot of Ursablood moon as it has good synergy with cresselia, better under tr and helps with the amoon match up

but its fine as it is

Some small things like I woulden't run willo on harc but thats minor stuff

biggest problem is the ev's

they aren't optimized at all, especially hands and cress

https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/formats/vgc24-regulation-e/ The spreads here are a good place to start but I think you can make some of them on your own

I have a fet sets I can send if you want

[near smelt]

awesome thanks for the first impression.. so yeah I had E Speed on Arcanine before but wasnt using it much so I wanted to try out something else. And yess sorry hahah when it comes to EVs i'm still quite the noob, never sure in which direction to go, where to start with... ://

[distant stump]

I think you could run head smash on the harc

[near smelt]

great thanks a lot i'll check those out asap, but if you have some sets you'd recommend I won't say no to that either, feel free to drop a dm ^^

[distant stump]

thats what I run at least, its a good last slot

[distant stump]

Sure

I'll send you what I use

[mossy arrow]

please check my team. trying for a sun team maybe. still want the dirge around tho, but i am flexible to whatever build helps it win. https://pokepast.es/f79a3dbc2bc707c3

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[distant stump]

Theres a few problems here

Biggest one though is that the team has a ton of negative synergy

Chi and Tales both really want sun to go up, and are extremely reliant on their abilities

Skeledirge and oger water also really want thier abilities

While moon and weezing directly go against stat, and removes beads of ruin and drought which are super important

I think you should pick 1 side and stick with it

Sun or weezing

[untold estuary]

Heyo so now that I've practiced a lot in this format ik what I'm doing I finally decided to build my own team using mons I love currently it's going amazing so far! Despite how it looks glaceon can 1 shot almost everything lol just thought I'd share it to see if any tweaks can be made if possible I'd like to keep Delphox and Glaceon yet if I have too I'm open to letting ONE of them go

[distant stump]

First, whats procing the WP on Delphox?

[untold estuary]

Well either the opponent or I will hit delphox with a super effective move which triggers the WP I will then tera fairy and sweep and cause fox doesn't have the WP anymore magician will steal the opponents item! Tho sometimes it's a bit bugged on showdown I'm guess it's cause she uses spread moves idk-

It works a lot for me in singles so I thought the same would work here it kinda does from the limited matches I used her in

[distant stump]

Im honestly surprised

that delphox can tank a super effective hit

with those stas

[distant stump]

Theres a ton of minor problems with the team honestly

First, I reccomend cutting Delphox (Sorry :< )

WP is just not very good, its stats are not great, its weak to a lot of stuff and there are simply better options

For fire and psychic attackers

Then, I see no protect on any of your mons other than oger wellspring

Protect is a vgc staple, I highly reccomend adding it

TheresSome of the move choices are sus, like harc does not want fire fang

If I had to replace fox, I'd add another speed control methood

Maybe torn

[untold estuary]

Oki and sad yet I get to keep Glaceon so that's nice :)

[distant stump]

I think glaceon could maybe work

But you need to support it

[untold estuary]

Could lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9vgc2023regulatione-1970510182

Anyways is this better?

Ah shit forgot gonna place protect on flutter mane too

[proud seal]

I tried building a trick Room team but I'm having a lot of trouble getting it to work I don't know what to change

https://pokepast.es/6985b78c80602211

[woven rose]

Indeedee F is better because its bulkier. Don’t run fake out on it because it will fail because of psychic terrain. Mostly always want to run follow me, protect, trick room and moonblast/psychic

Different Ability on Snorlax, probably gluttony if you’re running recycle. Could maybe run heal pulse on indeedee to support snorlax.

A lot of your pokemon are super fast. Could run 1 or 2 fast pokemon in the case you don’t run trick room but a lot of your team does not threaten offense under trickroom

[proud seal]

Does this look better?

https://pokepast.es/cf4c18e2e08ec470

[mossy arrow]

@distant stump I would say sun, but I dunno which Pokémon to use to supplement the slots I got. Probably something to counter water mons and ursaluna (Bloodmoon or otherwise)

Should I just go the route of torkoal?

[fresh flicker]

AV blocks Protect. I would recommend you have Blitz > Crash and Tera Blast fairy.

[fresh flicker]

But please use pre existing teams. Some sets are questionable or some mons are just unviable.

https://pokepast.es/48ee021e08665b68

Use this team to get an idea of the meta.

But note that I haven't played VGC in a while so take this team with a grain of salt.

@untold estuary

[untold estuary]

Ah I've had been playing with that team previously just slightly edited and yes ik I was dumb and didn't realize that AV protect until I got home lol

Not a fan of chein-pao way to squishy for my taste

No offense!

[fresh flicker]

If that's the case then Bax should be as strong and decently fast and bulkier.

[untold estuary]

hmm I think I can force glaceon on there

[fresh flicker]

That won't work.

Glace is too weak and slow.

The idea is to abuse Tailwind.

While putting as much offensive pressure as possible.

Glace fails to do that while Bax does it and while having better typing.

And playing with your favorites sometimes NEVER works. Unless if it's a good mon.

Glace in a competitive stance has too many flaws.

Especially with that pure ice typing.

@untold estuary

[untold estuary]

with all do respect watch the replay of her in action and then tell me shes weak https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9vgc2023regulatione-1970844767

ik I might've played a bit tooo safe at the beginning yet I thought it was gonna be a perish trap and I wasnt completely sure what to do

yet that end shows that glaceon can indeed be a strong sweeper

[fresh flicker]

That's not the case.

Quite frankly the opponent simply had a bad team due to the lack of direction.

My point still stands.

I don't know what they were doing there.

[untold estuary]

I have other replays of glaceon sweep too

this is just the most recent one

[wild sinew]

If it's fun go ahead, but if you come to this channel you'll probably get competitive advice. Glaceon won't work at a higher level and hence won't be recommended

[untold estuary]

ah sorry if I came across rude lol

[fresh flicker]

Unfortunately Ice type is best as a fast hard hitting sweeper.

[untold estuary]

im really attacted to some mons and being able to compete with em makes me happy and let me have fun when playing competitive dont get me wrong the competitly viable teams are good dont get me wrong yet its not as fun yk??

[fresh flicker]

Unfortunately Metagames aren't forgiving.

[untold estuary]

they can be meta is always evolving expect that trickroom aroruge I just went against that never again god please

idk how to spell its name uhh cannon person

[fresh flicker]

Armarouge.

[untold estuary]

yes

[fresh flicker]

Look. If you wanna be a fun based player who doesn't care about losing then go ahead and use a bad team whilst having a blast. However this is a competitive channel and we are usually against using gimmicks.

[untold estuary]

gimmicks?? Like shedninjas whole existances?

[fresh flicker]

As in gimmicky strats. Like Sunny Day charizard in Gen 3 OU.

[untold estuary]

hmm a werid pick yet I can see it done if rarely

wait torkoal came out gen3 right??

if so then why not use that or drought ninetales??

[fresh flicker]

They didn't have it then.

[untold estuary]

ah

[fresh flicker]

Not until gen 5 and 7 respectively.

[untold estuary]

okay yeah then it makes sense to run sunny day on a mon

if anything charizard is a good pick cause he gets solar beam

imo never played gen3

[fresh flicker]

I don't think beam existed yet or it just didn't get it.

[untold estuary]

yeah it doesnt just checked for ya

[fresh flicker]

Anyways let's put this convo someplace else.

[untold estuary]

so yeah probably a very useless pick for sunny day-

ah sorry!

[mossy arrow]

rate my team again. thank you. please give alternatives if possible

https://pokepast.es/650cd06e0a3a6376

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[distant stump]

I really don’t recommend oranguru, it’s way too easy to stop it from setting up tr and in general it’s quite a bad Pokémon

I think farig is just better there

If you want you can use skele, though idk if I would recommend it

If you add farig you’re committing more to a tail room style (which is totally fine), if you do that you might want to consider adding faster options

Then the move choises are kinda suspect

I think you want shadow ball and recover on skele instead of hex and yawn

Oranguru Doesent want quash as it’s gonna be in tr anyways, then I don’t see why you would run trailblazer ursa

SD is better

[mossy arrow]

hm, hm

gotcha

ill tryi it out w those changes

pretty good changes overall

still hard to deal with the fu bear tho

[distant stump]

Yeah

I'd kinda assume so

I think Rilla instead of hands would do good ther

or use oger water to redirect attacks for iron hands to clean uo

[mossy arrow]

whats a good support set for ogerwater? im just cud horn follow and spike, standard stuff. i dont have any prio on my team, so thinking of swapping spiky for grassy?

[distant stump]

nah

[distant stump]

i think that set is good

you just need more investment

[mossy arrow]

investment into which stat? oger is 252 atak speed

crud, i dont have rillaboom on my copy of scarlet

[distant stump]

defenses, hp

https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/formats/vgc24-regulation-e/

I reccomend taking a set from here

[mossy arrow]

ohhh cool

i didnt know about this. thanks!

[sand minnow]

https://pokepast.es/0aac4d22615dfcc2
any tips on improving this team?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[woven rose]

If you’re running Maus-Ape, mais needs beat up, thats its whole purpose

Cetitan is just bad

This is a very old team. Would be good in Reg A but now its just bad. People have other ways of powering up rage fist

[fresh flicker]

Use a team for Reg E in victory road. Use one of those teams and get the meta from there after some games.

[digital raven]

so I wanted to do a more basic team than I've been trying

https://pokepast.es/b5416997fb8cf6dd

specifically not a hard trick room team

I like specs dragapult, ik it normally goes physical in vgc but it outspeeds non-booster fluttermane and ohko's it, and it's cool into ogerpon

[wanton niche]

Been working on this team making minor adjustments, tho this is my first time using a rain team and I haven't gone against too many at all to give me a good information if this is alright or not
https://pokepast.es/e1f01da88ab013d0

[north tree]

Dragonite does particularly fit onto this team, there is no chien-pao to boost it's damage nor do you have the level of support needed to make dragon dance work. Iron hands is another good physical attacker which does much better into chien pao, one of dragapult's main counters.
Heatran can be replaced for Chi-yu if you really want to make special dragapult work. Air Balloon heatran in general is not the most ideal set and chi yu allows draco meteor to power up to crazy levels.
Dragapult should still have Clear body even if it is special. The immunity to icy wind speed drops comes in handy in many situations.
Spiky shield over helping hand on ogerpon, the team has like no protects.

Sludge Bomb torn doesn't really hit anything that bleakwind doesn't, I'd recommend protect with a tera ghost set rather than tera flying to avoid fake out. Sunny day/icy wind over protect is also a good shout.

[north tree]

Tera steel/fairy on dragapult over tera ghost, you don't need tera to one shot flutter anymore, tera steel can one shot tera fairy flutter with tera blast while tera fairy is better defensively and you can potentially run will o wisp into certain teams (completely breaks paonite) over hydro pump.

[distant stump]

Eh I still think you can run tera ghost on drag

The damage is super useful

steel isen't particularly great offensivley and chien isen't that common

[wild sinew]

Gholdengo is generally preferred over Scizor, bringing more to the table with its Nasty Plot set. The main seller being another Spore immunity, Amoonguss can be a problem for rain comps

Tornadus/Pelipper should be replaced, they pretty much do the same thing and using both is a hindrance, Chien Pao, Hisuian Arcanine, Landorus, Amoonguss, and Rillaboom can all be strong in this slot

Grass STAB is more valuable than knock off on Ogerpon, the utility is nice but doesn't matter enough in short games to justify it over stab. You also probably want to go with more defensive EVs

Iron Hands gets more value from moving the hp into spd, as it has such a high hp stat, the extra hp is less significant. This also maximises value from Assault Vest.

If you don't choose Landorus, this team looks like it would appreciate Scarf Urshifu's speed, rain making up for the power.

[north tree]

True I just overcooked here

[soft isle]

im really bad at making pokemon teams and ive built one and want as much feadback as possible as i want to be able to make pokemon teams without just guessing and moving iv sliders lol Ogerpon-Hearthflame @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 56 HP / 160 Atk / 76 Def / 16 SpA / 108 SpD / 92 Spe

• Ivy Cudgel
• Spiky Shield
• Wood Hammer
• Knock Off

Gholdengo @ Life Orb
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 68 HP / 76 Def / 144 SpA / 48 SpD / 172 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk

• Make It Rain
• Nasty Plot
• Shadow Ball
• Protect

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Expert Belt
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 96 HP / 128 Atk / 72 Def / 48 SpA / 112 SpD / 52 Spe

• Surging Strikes
• Bulk Up
• Drain Punch
• Ice Spinner

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 104 HP / 52 Atk / 104 Def / 64 SpA / 112 SpD / 72 Spe

• Stomping Tantrum
• Fissure
• Stealth Rock
• Protect

Baxcalibur @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 120 HP / 116 Atk / 84 Def / 44 SpA / 84 SpD / 60 Spe

• Ice Beam
• Earthquake
• Crunch
• Glaive Rush

Meowscarada @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 72 HP / 84 Atk / 84 Def / 92 SpA / 64 SpD / 112 Spe

• Flower Trick
• Sucker Punch
• Chilling Water
• Trailblaze

[distant stump]

Alright so first of all

[soft isle]

heres the link btw finally got it

https://pokepast.es/99160fc4cac7d4fc

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[distant stump]

thats what I wanted to say first lol

use pokepast links its so much easier

[soft isle]

yeah just found out how to get them

[distant stump]

The team is a big hodgepodge of random stuff

A few mons that are kinda bad like meow and tingly

The sets are super weird, like meowscarada really wants to be a physical attack but has chilling water and spa attack investemnt

[soft isle]

ik im terrible at building teams and thrown a random team i dont mind critisim hopefully i can learn and acctually make a good team

[distant stump]

Too be honest

I assume your new to vgc

[soft isle]

yup wanted to get into it and thought i need to know/have a good team to start

[distant stump]

I think you should start with a rental team

[soft isle]

rental?

[distant stump]

Teambuilding is a super complicated and hard skill

Starting with a rental (Basically pre made team)

is better so you have a good base for learning the game

once you know the meta game, roles of mons, and just get beter

you can start dipping your toes into making your own stuff

[soft isle]

alright

how do i get a rental team?

[distant stump]

https://victoryroadvgc.com/sv-rental-teams/

This is a good site

there are some teams from tournaments on the site

[soft isle]

ty

[distant stump]

but they dont have evs

https://www.youtube.com/@CybertronVGC

This channel also has some great stuff you can try, and I reccomend watching Cybertrons videos in general to learn the game

[soft isle]

ty i just imported the team into ps

[distant stump]

good luck!

[soft isle]

i lost lol

[distant stump]

it happens

lol

[soft isle]

i won to a forfeit

[soft isle]

ive changed teams now im doing pretty good

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/a1ca53b2e7891c83 any advice to improve this team would be great

[north tree]

Not too sure about both the hisuian arcanine and the roaring moon on this team. Will o wisp and howl with 0 bulk feels A) way too slow for a tailwind team, you'd rather attack and B) Amoonguss and speed control alone is not enough setup and C) you have 0 bulk, hisuian arcanine isn't lasting long enough to get value.
Roaring moon is for a similar reason. Not many opportunities to set up dragon dance nor reasons (I guess punishing protects on the last turn of tailwind is an option but quite a rare case).
I would like to know why exactly the two pokemon are on the team, neither are low quality but they seem out of place on this team.

[fresh flicker]

Harc is better as a offensive mon.

If you want to use a support Arc use the Kanto one.

[wanton abyss]

H-Arc is better than K-Arc in almost every conceivable way in this format

I will say Roaring Mid on this team feels off

[north tree]

^^^^

[fresh flicker]

Even tho their roles are spreads are different.

[north tree]

Hisuian arc winning sacramento:

[wanton abyss]

I see where you’re coming from, but no they do the same things and H-Arc is in a position to do them better

[north tree]

^

Wish this channel had reactions

[digital sierra]

https://pokepast.es/b2b387ab4a15eb8a so far urshifu has been dead weight on this team, so does anybody have any idea for replacements?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Try giving it a Choice Scarf

[digital sierra]

ive tried scarf, and it didnt go well

plus its kinda useless if it has to come in under trick room

could bundle work well?

[hot monolith]

RM is there bc I absolutely love that thing and wanna use it, no actual reasoning lmao

[fresh flicker]

Go to the analysis and look for the Regulation E moon set.

Because it's seen a bit of usage because of pon.

[wanton abyss]

Honestly, the mons aren’t the problem. The team’s well built in terms of synergy. Urshifu is a mon that benefits from the space a Pokémon like Rillaboom creates

[digital sierra]

good to know

[wanton abyss]

Urshifu/Rilla lead can apply a lot of pressure to quite a few leads

[pulsar trout]

https://pokepast.es/d53c8ed57eab2cd4 i feel like i'd need to replace chiyu and chienpoo

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

They seem just fine?

[fresh flicker]

They seem just fine.

[austere wasp]

They seem fine yeah but if u wanna replace id suggest replacing pao with lando

Or ogerpon water

[fresh flicker]

Lando provides Intimidate which is great.

Helps hands a lot.

[wild sinew]

Yh Lando is probably way to go
I think I'd suggest Rillaboom if anything

[pulsar trout]

so lando > rilla

[fresh flicker]

Yea Hands and rillaboom both provide fake out. Which somewhat overlaps.

So Lando > rilla to provide Intimidate.

And Pao helps Landorus-Therian, Iron hands with Damage output because Sword of ruin.

[digital sierra]

https://pokepast.es/8457e4966deb9ff7 is this team good enough to make it to master ball on the in-game ladder?

[fresh flicker]

@winter gulch

[winter gulch]

yes

[distant stump]

I think pretty much any team can make master ball tier

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/d0c8058e7ba7d918 2nd itteration on this team, thoughts?

[winter gulch]

that team specifically I think is pretty solid

[fresh flicker]

You may want ST > WH. Allows for more coverage.

[hot monolith]

is Grassy Glide good enough for grass coverage?

[fresh flicker]

Wait a sec..

Oh yea you're running Weezing.

[hot monolith]

yea

[fresh flicker]

Hands instead. It isn't affected by gas all that much.

Boom relies heavily on its ability.

[hot monolith]

that's fair

[distant stump]

For sure

It’s pretty good

[fathom token]

https://pokepast.es/8193715c94c1e2ec
bax + chandelure spice with a bit of an uncommon bulky flutter mane ;))

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[fathom token]

(I'm probably about to get cursed by 7 million different ppl for using poison jab instead of sucker punch on urshifu, but that's just how it is)

[umbral valve]

How is this team I want to know how to use it against different types of teams https://pokepast.es/a3261b21cca46e57

[toxic socket]

what is pjab even for

oger...?

or you just want a third stab for tera

[sand minnow]

I love VGC

mark my words I'm going to play VGC @toxic socket

[toxic socket]

what

[sand minnow]

yep

I know it might seem surprising cause you have to be intelligent and be able to think of multiple stuff at once

but I think I have what it takes

[toxic socket]

who are you

Carl Peanut Butter

[fathom token]

its for both of those and fairy types

I really thin kits ueseful

[toxic socket]

and you dont want tera steel because

[fathom token]

*useful

[toxic socket]

of fire ofer?

*oger

[fathom token]

wdym?

tera type steel would only make em even weaker to fire oger

[toxic socket]

thats what im asking

[winter gulch]

we are in fact going to question poison jab lol

[toxic socket]

i assume you dont want tera steel iron head becuase of fire oger

[winter gulch]

80x2=160, 75* 1.5 *1.5 = 168.75

[fathom token]

oh, yeah that's it

[winter gulch]

even on a fairy you might as well just wicked blow lol

bc the only one is neutral without tera :)

[fathom token]

hmm...

[toxic socket]

atales

idt iron head even kills through screen

[winter gulch]

Urshifu isn't doing anything with snow boost anyways

[fathom token]

but as @toxic socket said, its also pretty useful with oger

[winter gulch]

also that flutter is too passive

[toxic socket]

252+ Atk Urshifu Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 112-133 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

ok

[fathom token]

that's why I said the 'extra especial flutter mane' :>

its a tanky flutter mane

weirdly tanky flutter mane

it actually carried some games, ngl

sub trolls a lot sucker punch users

and calm mind just makes it broken

[wild sinew]

I'd say screens Dragapult is bad and you should use Ninetales, but your team is a Hyper offensive Tailwind one that does not need the bulk from screens, a fake out pivot like Rillaboom or Iron Hands is preferable in the slot.

Sash Ogerpon is questionable, making it a Choice Band set or moving onto Wellspring is best depending on what you want it to do

Psychic over Hyper Voice / Dazziling Gleam, you don't need two spread attacks. There's also no reason to waste EVs, you can invest more in spd and make it Modest to gain maximum value from the nature

Glastrier is bad and you have no reason for Icy Wind, Ursaluna, Hisuian Arcanine, Landorus, or Gholdengo all work better in that slot

[sand minnow]

https://pokepast.es/cae2718d557aa050
What changes should I do to the speed tier it is about 110 before modifiers
Movesets and Tera

[wild sinew]

Rillaboom and Scarf Urshifu are preferable over Okidogi and Mamoswine

They're just not that good rn, Okidogi fits on screen styles and your team doesn't have the support to support a set up sweeper let alone two of them. Scarf Urshifu and Rillaboom are great pokemon that can ease the pressure on Gholdengo and let it set up freely.

Replace Nasty Plot or imprison with Dazzling Gleam/Hyper Voice, single attack Farigiraf is generally not worth it, doesn't benefit as much from Nasty Plot or Imprison

Consider Tera Dragon Regidrago if you're not going to use Tera Blast but if Steel is your preference, it's fine for now

Focus Blast is bad on Tornadus, Protect to preserve your Tera vs fake out and rain dance to help half your team and itself are fantastic options.

[digital sierra]

https://pokepast.es/a793c091b078ea00 ive been making a lot of tweaks to this team, could this work well?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[digital sierra]

i figured glimmora could be good for surprise factor

[austere wasp]

I'd suggest sludge bomb somewhere

[wild sinew]

Firstly, you want more attack and spd on Iron Hands

The sample spread of 4/156/4/0/252/92 is fine as it is

[austere wasp]

I like the hands bundle lando with the tea

[wild sinew]

And yh Lando wants Max spe in favour of 8 spd
You're actually wasting evs this way as they only add by 8 after the first 4 at level 50

I think Glimmora works better as a Chi-Yu or Ogerpon-Hearthflame

[proud seal]

https://pokepast.es/c5825ed542792767

[fresh flicker]

This team is beyond saving for me.

@winter gulch

Help here.

[winter gulch]

yeah I'm very lost, can you tell us a bit about why certain mons are there?

[fresh flicker]

@proud seal

[proud seal]

I tried building a team of my favorite mons Tornadus is mainly there for tailwind set up. Regidraco, Kilowattarl, and Arcanine are just there for offensive threats. Amoongus is just for support. Wydear is just there to spam psyshied bash to increase it's defense and high horse power since it a strong attacking move

[fresh flicker]

Unfortunately if you want to win then going with your favorites most of the time isn't the route to go.

However, we can go with Tailwind as that's the direction your going for.

@winter gulch we got the explanation my friend.

[winter gulch]

Regidrago is kinda mid and Kilowattrel isn't an offensive threat

[fresh flicker]

First up, let's fix your torn. This is the standard set.
Tornadus @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 116 SpA / 108 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Bleakwind Storm
• Tailwind
• Taunt
• Rain Dance

[winter gulch]

if you want an offensive Arcanine it would be H-Arcanine, regular arcanine is typically a support

[fresh flicker]

Arcanine-Hisui @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 52 HP / 196 Atk / 28 Def / 4 SpD / 228 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Flare Blitz
• Rock Slide
• Extreme Speed
• Tera Blast
  Standard set for H-Arcanine.

If you want to use a grass on Tailwind, Rillaboom is the way to go. It's fake outs are very helpful.

And we can also go with a Fire-Water-Grass Core while we are at it. So Urshifu-R is a great pick.

I'll be DMing you the standard sets for this Regulation.

Flutter Mane can help as its a strong fairy type that can beat the dragons that otherwise the team struggles against.

And lastly Chien-Pao is a great dragon counter that helps Rilla, Shifu, And H-Arc with damage output thanks to its ability, Sword of ruin.

[pulsar trout]

https://pokepast.es/ec26d01b60b9a8f8 i feel like i'd need to replace amoong for sistischa

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Honestly the pokemon Id replace are Kommo-o and Rillaboom, maybe for like Lando + Hands who this team prefers. If you do want to stick with them though, you could take inspiration from this team which utilises four of the pokemon you have https://pokepast.es/d6ca8c693326ae53, it is notably difficult to pilot as it uses uncommon pokemon

[pulsar trout]

what evs does the team have?

[pulsar trout]

also rq why howl arcanine

[wild sinew]

probably to boost TTar

you could use 252/252 or the sets on the dex for now

[pulsar trout]

alr thx

[wanton abyss]

You’re using a team that’s doubling up on both Fire Types and Grass types. Not bad in theory, but makes you extra vulnerable to everyone’s favorite fire frog Heatran. Waterpon also looks rather difficult for you to work around if you’re not positioned correctly.

[sterile cedar]

https://pokepast.es/d29b5ac6a81600b9
I’m more of a singles player but thought I’d dabble some vgc. Whatchu think?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[north tree]

Firstly, spore on amoonguss is better than stun spore. Protect or leaf storm over giga drain, the damage is more important than the recovery as you can recover anyway with regenerator.

[sterile cedar]

Oh and the Berry on torn is just me tryna stay alive without sash

[north tree]

Secondly, shadow ball over dazzling gleam on gholdengo. It's stab so it's more consistent and nasty plot over recover.

Third, ogerpon wellsrping is better over palafin, palafin takes a bit long to set up.

[sterile cedar]

I put on dazzling initially bc I already had Dark coverage on 2 mons and I was misssing some fairy damage. Actually has helped me in some ladder games

[north tree]

At this point have flutter mane over gholdengo

Specs dazzling gleam next to chiyu does stupid levels of damage

[sterile cedar]

That makes sense scarf and tailwind are a bit redundant

[north tree]

Scarf and tailwind isn't the redundant part it's having to set up palafin which requires at least two turns, half of your tailwind time

[sterile cedar]

Ok

And if I swap out gholdengo for specs fm I can put sash on torn

Wait I got mixed up nevermind

[north tree]

You can put sash on torn still

[tulip totem]

palafin is incredibly outclassed at this point in the meta, urshifu-r or oger-wellspring are much better

[north tree]

put specs on chiyu and booster flutter speed

[north tree]

I was gonna suggest ursh r but they have ursh s

[tulip totem]

ah

[north tree]

Which allows for sash torn

[sterile cedar]

Thanks

[umbral valve]

Thanks for the feedback the thing is I thought this team was more of a balance teams. Is there anything I could do to

[wild sinew]

You'd replace almost thy entire team that way

[umbral valve]

💀

Well then would dragapult be good If I don't use screens

[wild sinew]

It would work with a Choice band set yeah

[umbral valve]

Ok

Is it ok to use both urshifu and ogerpon water

[wild sinew]

Yes

[umbral valve]

Ok

Then is tornadus urshifu and ogerpon a core

[pulsar trout]

https://pokepast.es/169a952b2506a5fb updated the team

[cunning nexus]

https://pokepast.es/a7598f779a1f38f8
Reg E team ive made :D
It's a sun team

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Well

[wild sinew]

How long have you played vgc

[cunning nexus]

barely

anything at all

the only help i got from this was with the brute bonnet changing it from an attacker to a support unit (its a lot better now)

[wild sinew]

Main issues are that you miss some important things, in particular a lack of protects, and the meta is too cruel for Shiftry, and to an extent, Fezandipiti and Brute Bonnet. Your team just loses to pokemon like Hearthflame

[cunning nexus]

i see

shiftry is a pretty cool mon ngl

thanks for the tips im gonna make a sand team now

[cunning nexus]

https://pokepast.es/56a53e7d916525e4

i try really hard with this sand team but i cant seem to win. I had okidogi and gliscor before replacing them with breloom and h-arcanine but it didnt really matter cause i couldnt win that much

maybe sand archetype isnt that good or im just not doing it right

about 2 hours of testing

[distant stump]

I could ramble on about tiem choices, mon choices, abilties, moves, team comp etc but the problem here is just that trying to build a compotent team when your new to the game is really hard

[cunning nexus]

im not really new im just not that good

[distant stump]

Like, it easily takes hundreds to thousands of games to get good at this stuff for perspective

[cunning nexus]

ah

[distant stump]

If your not good I recommend a rental team, or using something already made

[cunning nexus]

my sun team was working pretty well

[distant stump]

ik its boring but like

[cunning nexus]

i like playing this one game called pokemon reborn

its pretty good

[distant stump]

I got no clue what that is :< sorry

[cunning nexus]

hard fan game

[distant stump]

I assume an emulator of sorts

oh right

I think using something already proven to be good

[cunning nexus]

is sand archetype good in gen 9?

[distant stump]

and then building knowledge of the meta game, strategies that work and dont work, synergies between mons, and just practicing

then you can dip your toes into that stuff

[distant stump]

Not really

its pretty shit

[cunning nexus]

aight

i should search up good archetypes and build off of that

[distant stump]

Yeah sure

I can send you some places to start if you want

[cunning nexus]

sure

[distant stump]

If you want to try sand

there was a sand team that just won a regional and I think the strategy itself is pretty neat

[cunning nexus]

really?

[distant stump]

https://pokepast.es/d6ca8c693326ae53

You'll have to fill in the evs but 252/252 and stuff from smogon should do fine

I think the idea is howl with harc

so ttar doesen't have to dragon dance

or something like that

[cunning nexus]

oooh

thats cool

i just saw some guy use howl earlier

ill keep these in mind, thanks man

[distant stump]

np

[distant stump]

theres a bunch of cool teams on victory road and on the tournament pages, I think picking one of them that appeals to you would be good

https://victoryroadvgc.com/2024-sacramento/

heres the sacramento page

[cunning nexus]

hmm so a lot of these seems to be built around certain pokemon

and i saw that flutter mane with 55% usage rate in all the vgc teams so thats interesting

[distant stump]

yeah

[slate echo]

https://pokepast.es/0ff0f91602f74d31

Hey can I get some help with this team

It just feels clunky

I like rilla, but have been contemplating ogerpon water

Also I don’t really bring flutter it just feels wrong

Basically the whole team feels off

[wild sinew]

Well you're doubling on terrain

And are mixing two very opposite styles making it feel weird

Flutter RillaShifu is usually paired with pokemon like Tornadus and Harcanine
ArmaDD Ursaluna is usually paired with Lilikoal

[slate echo]

Yeah, ok

Originally I was making a team with blaze tauros which worked well. But then I decided to try armaDD as I have never used them

It was working alright around 1450-1550

But then decided to try and focus if armaDD as it just seemed to win games

So is there any armaDD teams you could recommend

?

[wild sinew]

Yeah give me a second

https://pokepast.es/f07ee508e2dae355
Most teams use Liligant over Gallade as it's easier to pilot

[slate echo]

Ok cool

[slate echo]

Thanks a bunch

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/92cdd6b634fde0f3 would Lando-T be better for intimidate on this team?

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Yes

would suggest a bulkier Swords Dance Hearthflame and Icy Wind Flutter Mane

remember to change Hands Tera

[hot monolith]

yea

[tulip totem]

if two of my stats are the same, special attack and speed, would booster energy give quark drive speed or special attack?

nvm found it on bulbapedia

[fresh flicker]

I think it relies on nature.

[tulip totem]

it has a set priority order, apparently

[wanton abyss]

I don't hate Gyarados on this kind of team from a synergy standpoint. Now, right now, Gyarados really struggles getting damage off with wellspring pon everywhere, so you'd probably have to drop t wave or taunt for a secondary damaging move

you also don't need double grass stab on ogerpon! a lot of other moves you can run on it are swords dance, taunt, and the ever-interesting follow me, as well as coverage like tantrum or knock off

seeing as you're DD moon, I could recommend something like Taunt or Tantrum in that last Oger move slot.

[wanton abyss]

I believe it's the same order as beast boost!

[hot monolith]

what spread and item would I go for icy wind FM then? standard 252/252?

[fresh flicker]

Nope.

Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy
Level: 50
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 28 HP / 212 Def / 132 SpA / 4 SpD / 132 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Fairy
Timid Nature

• Moonblast
• Shadow Ball
• Icy Wind
• Protect

[hot monolith]

ok but my booster is on Moon

[fresh flicker]

Then specs.
Flutter Mane @ Choice Specs
Level: 50
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 28 HP / 212 Def / 132 SpA / 4 SpD / 132 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Fairy
Timid Nature

• Moonblast
• Shadow Ball
• Dazzling Gleam
• Icy Wind

[thorn root]

https://pokepast.es/337bb8341be74350

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

One thing you wouldn't want is Boots Harc, as hazards aren't relevant rn

[thorn root]

yeah honestly i didn't know what to give it

[wild sinew]

Sitrus probably

[thorn root]

that makes sense yeah

[wild sinew]

I do think you want to replace Harc tho

[tulip totem]

top 10 items on harc by usage

[fresh flicker]

Ye stacking ground weakness.

[wild sinew]

Cress

[fresh flicker]

You don't want to be destroyed by EQ or ST.

Even EP for crying out loud.

[thorn root]

what in god's name are they doing with loaded dice harc

[wild sinew]

Make Chi Yu choice specs and give Flutter Mane a bulkier spread with Icy Wind

Give Torkoal the Charcoal

This way you can run the more valuable Sitrus Amoon

You'd rather Max out the spd than Max out the hp every time for Iron Hands

[tulip totem]

rock blast probably, ig that's why it's below 1% lmao

[thorn root]

i didn't even know harc learned rock blast

[tulip totem]

at that point just run rock slide or head smash, instead of using your item slot for one move

[thorn root]

head smash is better for single target and rock slide is rock slide

[broken tusk]

Please rate my team. I have had a lot of success on showdown but think it can be better. I had a hard time against bulk up okidogi teams. https://pokepast.es/9cd2e4441140cd6c

[fresh flicker]

First off, 2 mons from this team are very underwhelming. They are more of a liability then anything. Thise 2 being Goodra and Fezandippiti.

[thorn root]

fez doesn't have much use other than fishing for poisons and goodra is goodra

[fresh flicker]

More like Goodra is badra.

[thorn root]

honestly hgoodra is pretty good

but base form goodra will always be a shitmon

[fresh flicker]

It's hisuian form is much better. But pretty underwhelming as both the opponents pokemon can double into it.

[thorn root]

it's defensive typing is indredible but there's not too much else going for it

[fresh flicker]

It's only real but poorly done niche, is walling Pon but to its defense stat is done poorly.

[thorn root]

actually not incredible because of how meta iron hands is right now

[winter gulch]

hoodra is overated but it'll always have its niche

[thorn root]

but only being weak to ground and fighting is good

[fresh flicker]

@winter gulch

[tulip totem]

it just sucks that two of the best pokemon in the format right now are ground and fighting respectively

[winter gulch]

everything except the sinistcha confuses me

[thorn root]

yeah if they weren't then hoodra would be a good wall

[fresh flicker]

Tell us, what were you trying to accomplish here? What was your rating when you tried the team?

[wild sinew]

It's less about specific pokemon

The team is just far too passive

[fresh flicker]

Yeah,

[broken tusk]

Thanks for the feedback. I have to agree that goodra was underwhelming. I was trying to build the team using the shiny pokemon I found. Fezendipiti spreads poison and speed control. H arcanine and flutter usually sweep. Cresellia keeps everything alive and sinsetsha heals and matcha gotcha.

[fresh flicker]

Was the Arc Shiny?

[broken tusk]

Yes

I have everything but fezendipti shiny

[fresh flicker]

Because 1, it's a good shiny, and 2, H-Arc is very good on the format.

[broken tusk]

I like h arcanine and flutter they usually do the most damage and fez wears it down with toxic. Won a lot of games with toxic chain and lunar blessing/ally switch

[fresh flicker]

With H-Arcanine and Flutter Mane we can try make a tailwind team.

[broken tusk]

I agree goodra is weak and maybe too repetitive having cress and sinsehca

[winter gulch]

oh yeah we finally got some viability rankings

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-2024-regulation-e-viability-rankings.3730152/

[broken tusk]

Is fezendipti that bad? Toxic chain spread pretty good

[winter gulch]

they are a little bit scuffed but its mostly correct imo

its pretty mid

[fresh flicker]

For starters. With Urshifu-R and Rillaboom, we can make a solid core.

[broken tusk]

I also just got a kingambit, snorkax, annilape, and maus caught

[fresh flicker]

And with Flutter Mane, most of the offense is already in place.

[broken tusk]

Ok I have both of those moms already but not EV trained or nature

That’s great. Maybe heatran for defense with assault vest flash fire?

Or a galarian moltres?

[winter gulch]

I'd say everything A and above is accurate for those VRs

[fresh flicker]

Torn for tailwind support, which should allow for some speed control and Taunt to shut down most Trick Room setters.

[broken tusk]

Thanks everyone for all the tips this is a good start for changed

[fresh flicker]

The last slot is up to you. RM, Pao, Farigiraf are all solid choices.

[broken tusk]

What about king gambit?

[fresh flicker]

Lando, and Gambit are good in this too.

[broken tusk]

Ok cool any changes to evs I should do?

[fresh flicker]

Note if you want to go gambit then Lando is a great partner instead of torn.

[broken tusk]

What is the strategy to use

Gambit

[pulsar trout]

https://pokepast.es/799c687798a54abd im trying to build this team in game is there any improvements i could do?

[fresh flicker]

E-Speed>Wil-O-Wisp, H-Arcanine prefers to be an offensive mon.

Also Amoonguss has fallen off to better grass types in the tier.

@wild sinew

[pulsar trout]

on the vr it says its top 7

[winter gulch]

the VR isn't ordered in tiers btw

like Amoonguss is first in that tier bc its first in the alphabet

[pulsar trout]

aw

its still in a tier tho

[wild sinew]

Give Rillaboom Wood Hammer, ideally over U Turn to keep a playable Gholdengo matchup

Pretty solid 6 though

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/9bd9e3578b64a155 what should be the last mon? I don't currently have a counter to Tornadus but idk what would be best

[pulsar trout]

does iron hands run tera water

over tera fire

[winter gulch]

FWG are all used, depends on what you need

[pulsar trout]

also i feel like the hands ev spreads wonky

[winter gulch]

you could run anything and it could work tbh

[pulsar trout]

i see

[pulsar trout]

is everything else all good?

[wild sinew]

Yeah

[pulsar trout]

alr thx

[distant stump]

Give roaring moon tailwind is probably 1 answer

That team looks like it would fit weezing very well but that’s kinda niche and hard to use

[hot monolith]

now you see

[distant stump]

?

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/fcf15bfbb222bc7d

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[hot monolith]

this is another iteration of this team

[distant stump]

I see

[hot monolith]

tho psyshock isn't supposed to be on FM

[distant stump]

The other team looks like it benefits much more from weezing than this one

Urshifu and harc really appreciate their abilities

If you don’t want to use it

[hot monolith]

yea ik

[distant stump]

Maybe amoonguss on the last slot

[hot monolith]

on the Ushi Harc team?

[distant stump]

Nah the first one

You sent

Or Chi yu

Both look good if you won’t run weezing

But add tw on moon

I think you can afford more speed and less bulk on hands and flutter

[hot monolith]

I actually changed my FM spread but I didn't update it on the showdown team

should I drop Weezing on the Urshifu team for a redirection mon?

[distant stump]

That team looks weird, harc and urshifu have little synergy there

They want a different team

[distant stump]

Depends how much do you want to change it

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/9f27ae64d3bacd74 how does this look?

[distant stump]

Looks pretty good

[distant stump]

Big things are

Back sorry

Run Tera dragon/water on weezing

And remove cloak for sitrus

Fake outs will be targeted on the moon or oger water slots normally

You can optimize the evs a bit

Buts mostly fine

[hot monolith]

which EVs specifcally

[distant stump]

Hands wants more speed and spedef maybe instead of that much hp

Kinda wasting evs there

I assume you changed flutters, it will be out speed by all others with that set

I don’t know if that moon is speed booster or not

But I think you want more bulk

[hot monolith]

moon is atk

[distant stump]

You want speed on a set like that

Well I’m pretty sure not so caught up on the weezing meta

[winter gulch]

I know some people are running Gunk Shot so you OHKO Flutter

[distant stump]

80% hit rate is rough

[winter gulch]

you definitely sacrifice some consistency

but OHKOing Flutter is strong and the expected value of Gunk Shot i'd say is higher

[hot monolith]

is specing to outspeed max speed torn worth it? do ppl run that super often?

[distant stump]

Does sludge bomb miss out on ko barley or miss out by a lot

[hot monolith]

it's pretty far off iirc

[distant stump]

If it’s by a lot I get gunk shot

[distant stump]

Only focus sash sets

Ev to outspeed 172 I think

[hot monolith]

what's more important for FM

outspeeding opposing FM or living a hit from Chien-Pao?

[distant stump]

I think you can lower spa attack

[hot monolith]

what speed should I target then?

[distant stump]

I like speed

But it’s preference

[distant stump]

188 usually

189 or 190

188 outspeeds adamant pao and 190 most flutters

172 or 180 outspeeds oger

[hot monolith]

Flutter Mane @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Level: 50
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 100 HP / 204 Def / 68 SpA / 4 SpD / 132 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Dazzling Gleam
• Shadow Ball
• Moonblast
• Icy Wind

this look decent?

lives a hit from pao and hits 189 speed

[distant stump]

Yeah sure

Most flutters run less defense but you might get some sneaky lives with that set

Most are 28/228

[hot monolith]

ppl do not expect the flutter mane to live ice spinner

[distant stump]

Yeah

[hot monolith]

chien-pao is ohko'd by moonblast unless it tera-resists fairy

[distant stump]

Right

Wb your hands calcs

Do you kill it with Tera fairy?

I run booster so I’m not so sure

[hot monolith]

uhh

max spdef with av i assume

but what hp do most run?

[distant stump]

Yeah

52 or 0

One of the 2

Some are 52/172 or something but it’s not that common

[hot monolith]

moonblast 12.5% ohko

on 0 hp

[distant stump]

Hmm

If you want the kill

[hot monolith]

6.3 with 52

[distant stump]

Invest more into spa attack and less into defense

If you don’t then keep the set

I mean

[hot monolith]

hmm

[distant stump]

You can always hit hands with the partner

[hot monolith]

maybe I change it to live sucker punch instead of ice spinner

no clue how much different it'll make

are most pao ada or jolly?

[distant stump]

Like 15-20% less bp

Adamant

[hot monolith]

oh wait

28/204 live the spinner

forgot the 100/204 is to live a crash

[distant stump]

Yeah

[hot monolith]

still can't guarentee the ohko

Flutter Mane @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Level: 50
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 28 HP / 204 Def / 132 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Dazzling Gleam
• Shadow Ball
• Moonblast
• Icy Wind

probably gonna go with this tho

[distant stump]

Alright sure

Looks good I think

[hot monolith]

lives spinner and outspeeds most flutters

[distant stump]

Nice

[hot monolith]

should I use the standard spread on smogon for hands?

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Level: 50
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 52 HP / 76 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 124 Spe
Tera Type: Fire
Adamant Nature

• Wild Charge
• Drain Punch
• Heavy Slam
• Fake Out

i'd imagine this probably still ohko's flutter with heavy slam

[distant stump]

I have a different set

I don’t think any flutter

Can even dream of living heavy

[hot monolith]

what is a good speed stat to hit with hands?

[distant stump]

84 minimum imo

[hot monolith]

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Level: 50
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 124 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Fake Out
• Drain Punch
• Wild Charge
• Heavy Slam

86 spd

[distant stump]

Sure

52/172/4/0/172/108 is my set

[hot monolith]

hmm

that actually seems interesting

I might steal that

[distant stump]

Sure lmao

[thorn root]

https://pokepast.es/e9c4969ea87efac4

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[north tree]

-Spiky shield > encore on ogerpon-wellspring, a lot more consistent.
-Fix the teras.
-U-turn over protect on scarf landorus
-Not too sure about icy wind booster speed flutter on this team, iron hands and heatran don't really benefit from it and lando doesn't particularly either.
-Consider bulky wiki berry ninetales instead of light clay, this looks like a team that's fine with 5 turns of screens.

[thorn root]

the protect on lando t was a mistake lol

what should i swap for flutter

[wild sinew]

Gholdengo is an option
You could also run Sub Heatran + Specs Flutter

[thorn root]

ok i was thinking dhengo

[glacial badge]

https://pokepast.es/cd12ceeba3b820e6 - adaptation of andrew dings team from sacramento.. doesnt feel complete somehow, like it's missing something

[quaint phoenix]

yoo sent help pls

https://pokepast.es/46b5698a1de015f8

Originally had ogr wellspring

Was hella useless

Iron treads is basicly a scarf lando which is faster + its has prot

Clefairy and Volcarona are insane btw

I think lando is swapable with treads

wait

https://pokepast.es/e1babea37efce271

I think this might be rly good

[wild sinew]

Making Ogerpon a three attacks set, giving Urshifu a Choice Scarf, and making the Landorus a Chien Pao or Hisuian Arcanine sounds ideal

[glacial badge]

Why should I change them though? What's the benefit?

[wild sinew]

Volcorona would prefer Tera Dragon rn, you have plenty of answers to Flutter Mane and Chien Pao.

Thunder Wave is bad on Clefairy, teams run a lot of immunities and Volcorona doesn't desperately need counter speed control. Life Dew / Heal Pulse, Encore, Fake Tears etc would bring more value

Swords Dance Ogerpon Wellspring is just better here, doesn't need a focus Sash and appreciates the boost and the water stab. Also creates a FWG core to make switching easier

Don't run Jolly Lando, outspeeding other Lando isn't worth 6 points in attack, actually, it's sub optimal because they always get the slower U Turn.

Otherwise, it's petty solid and can work well

[wild sinew]

Sorry, missed this

You don't have enough support to be able to get off a Swords Dance so Wood Hammer or Horn Leech are overall more valuable. You're running a HO team afterall

Urshifu and Lando generally don't like being on the same team because both are strongest with Scarf, your team is fine into Wellspring with Rillaboom so you can afford to drop Landorus for Hisuian Arcanine or Chien Pao who handle Ogerpon Hearthflame and Amoonguss just as well for your team.

[winter gulch]

While we are on HO, can you rate this
https://pokepast.es/1eab821563f8012f

[wild sinew]

Probably want Arma over Chi (can't believe I'm saying this)

Earth Power on Torkoal is ideal, want to apply as much pressure into Heatran

I prefer Gleam on InDD to hit Pao, otherwise you can't reliably remove it if it's on the field. Ice Spinner and Dark stab if they run it can be scary.

Liligant without sleep powder is best Liligant, fine but consider Tera Ghost

Idk how many opportunities you'll find but follow me Indd probably makes it worthwhile.

[winter gulch]

yeah idek what this team is

[glacial badge]

I can give it a shot. I have limited time before a tourney, do you have suggested sets at all? Thanks for all the help

[wild sinew]

This should be reliable
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/formats/vgc24-regulation-e/

[glacial badge]

I struggle with these because it doesn't explain the sets, just gives you it. So I wouldn't be 100 percent sure how to make most use of it etc

[wild sinew]

Feel free to dm me then

I'll explain what each numbers do

[thorn root]

https://pokepast.es/c7c450d18f4974b1

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[fresh flicker]

Removing gloves is ideal on shifu, it won't hit through protect with those gloves, Mystic Water is better.

Tera Dark Pao. It's not taking hits anyways.

[thorn root]

i didn’t even know that was how unseen fist worked i just wanted to avoid rocky helmet damage and boost surging strikes

[fresh flicker]

Unseen Fist works with contact moves.

[thorn root]

makes sense now that i think about it

[fresh flicker]

Punching Gloves remove the contact aspect of SS and CC

[tulip totem]

if you really wanted to avoid contact damage from helmet, the protective pads work as well, but there's no damage boost to surging strikes

[balmy valley]

kung pao chicken (Chien-Pao) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Level: 50
Tera Type: Fairy -> Ghost

dumb wit it (Urshifu-Rapid-Strike) @ Punching Glove -> Mystic Water

gooblord (Chi-Yu) @ Life Orb -> Safety Goggles / Choice Specs

i actually dont like chiyu here

prefer harcanine

[wild sinew]

Solid

Consider Protect Tornadus if you want more of them, having next to none can be uncomfortable

Would recommend Ghost/Dark Chien Pao, with the focus sash, you're not really worried about having a good defensive typing

Urshifu is better with a Scarf here

Replace Chi-Yu with Flutter Mane, you'd prefer it as a Ghost on this team.

Make Dragonite Inner Focus, you have limited protects and intimidate is very common

[chilly jasper]

Trying so hard to build a team around dancer and I am genuinely unsure if there is possible to make it viable, even after the double quiver dance turn one, oricorio just doesn't have staying power even with other pokemon supporting it, I tried using kommo-o since clangorous soul is a dance move and that boosts physical defense but oricorio just dies, any ideas? Or should I abandon this
https://pokepast.es/a58cf8354f3b3f42

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

In short, dancer is just not viable enough to be worth it

Very Gimmicky, not on the vr, doesn't have any results

[chilly jasper]

Honestly what I was thinking, I just don't think it would be possible to set up on anyone who is remotely familiar with the game

Thanks anyway, back to the drawing board

[ivory yacht]

https://pokepast.es/d55dff60e65e28c4 this is my first time building a VGC team, so let me know what i can improve and what to look out for..

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[winter gulch]

Looks kinda like an OU TR adapted for VGC

Luckily TR is good here so we can fix that up

I'm on mobile rn so its a bit tough but let me dee if I can find some recently well performing PsySpam/TR teams

You can also check Lille Regionald for some teams

[thorn root]

supreme overlord is pretty useless in vgc because you can only get to fallen 3 and even when you have fallen 3 you just get doubled and lose

[lone lynx]

and defiant is overall good against intimidate

[coral kayak]

looking for a 6th for this, also just general thoughts. I was going for the hard rain core with this.
https://pokepast.es/67df61633d97c4ec

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

We only rate completed teams unfortunately, you'll find help (probably from me lol) in one of the comp general channels

[coral kayak]

ah apologies, and thanks

[sand minnow]

This is my first time ever making a vgc team I would love some advice on how to make it better https://pokepast.es/121dc39ee9862882

[wild sinew]

It might sound frustrating but I'd recommend using pre existing teams to get a better idea of the meta and what is good and why before you attempt to make a team

Vgc is a cruel world and 4 of your pokemon are pretty bad / unviable, with your 5th one using a set I wouldn't suggest

[coral kayak]

got the full paste now https://pokepast.es/6ab6c4df15baa2fd

[wild sinew]

Life Orb Basculegion is preferable, Psychic Fangs doesn't really hit much you don't already delete with a higher BP Last Respects or rain boosted wave crash, on the other hand Protect brings you a lot of utility, especially if you rely on Pelipper speed control which may be inconsistent.

Amoonguss generally prefers Tera Steel/Water/Fire here, types that give it resistances it wants

Thundurus is simply not a good mon rn, doesn't do enough damage, and lacks the speed to justify its frailty this meta. Gholdengo is the best special attacker on rain as of now with its Nasty Plot set. Appreciates fire nerf, and the redirection + fake out support

While minor, move 4 spd into Def for Chien Pao to maximise chances of living Surging Strikes.

[coral kayak]

rip but i kinda expected it when i was testing thundurus just couldnt do much against the ocean of ogerpon+rillaboom

psychic fangs was more for screens but there's probably better answers

[wild sinew]

Having access to Pelipper is honestly enough

[coral kayak]

ill take your word for that then, thanks

[sand minnow]

What team would you suggest I use as a newcomer to vgc then

[lost phoenix]

dont hate on wo chien

[analog notch]

https://pokepast.es/6bcccbeaa843256a

Not that one, my bad

That was a monotype

https://pokepast.es/57a238552bc5bd34

That one

[sand minnow]

https://pokepast.es/d2f56b58e0ee68de
so i have this team in mind
@misty rose tried to fix this but i still want some advice

[lost phoenix]

dont use talonflame

tornadus is Just Better

anyways um @wild sinew r u up

[wanton abyss]

use talon if you’re okay with a weaker tailwind setter than can also burn 50% of the time

[lost phoenix]

i think all the offensive mons much prefer guaranteed tailwind

[wanton abyss]

It’s basically guaranteed! Not much outspeeds talon even without gale wings

Talon just can’t bleakwind storm tbings

So torn is better 99% of the time

[lost phoenix]

well not that talon also a lot of scarfers (specifically rapid strike) cant kill it and talon exerts way less pressure

and youre way worse into trick room

and this also kinda wants sunny day

u have 2 offensive fires and almost 0 ursh mu

[wanton abyss]

Urshifu isn’t real it can’t hurt you

just dodge

but yes just use Tornadus

[wild sinew]

You'd want Tornadus over Talonflame here, just outclasses it as of rn

Replacing one of ally switch or Helping Hand with psychic is recommended, you want single target stab with Farigiraf and it doesn't need either of those

U-turn is my preference but if you go ground coverage just go High Horsepower, the 20 BP is worth the drop in accuracy

Would suggest Harc over Specs Yu on this, intimidate is more valuable and idt your team wants to play in the way Chi Yu does

I'd say SD Hearthflame doesn't work as well here, Scarf Urshifu fits pretty well, creates one of the best FWG cores in the format and doesn't overlap as much with your team

[wild sinew]

Teams here would give you the most value
https://victoryroadvgc.com/2024-lille/

[wild sinew]

Do you want this rated?

[analog notch]

Yeah, sure. If you wouldn't mind

[wild sinew]

The issue is the gimmicks are all very sub optimal

Alolan Ninetales being the only good pokemon

Go ahead and have fun If you want, but it isn't something you want to use for more serious play

[analog notch]

Yeah, fair enough

Gimmicks are more of a joke than actual serious play

But it can throw some people off

With every gimmick

Some might be more unexpected than others

I've had some other teams that were significantly worse, like an assault vest dragonite with thunder wave

Major flaws that I didn't account for

Even dumb ones like that

[digital sierra]

thought id build a team that uses immunities/telepathy to let me use moves like earthquake/sludge wave with no consequences. the idea is probably really stupid, but i thought it could be funny https://pokepast.es/7ee832717004f159

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Consists of pretty bad pokemon yeah, feel free to have fun on ladder if you want to use it

[warm crane]

https://pokepast.es/0b24653a77c960cc is this a good build I switched the 100 attack to defense on heatran but other than that what are the thoughts?

[digital sierra]

iirc most people run cloak on torn, but other than that it looks pretty standard

[warm crane]

I meant to switch that thnx

[hollow fable]

you have 2 life orbs

is pao meant to be sash?

[wild sinew]

Yeah with focus Sash Pao this can work fine

Id suggest Hisuian Arcanine or Landorus over Heatran though

[distant stump]

Why does the heatran have attack investment

[wild sinew]

it was meant to be def investment I believe

[distant stump]

Prolly

I think you can get away with specs flutter there

[analog notch]

You forgot to give Zapdos ev's

[sand minnow]

https://pokepast.es/3fb404a35bb03c16
so i have this idea
arcanine to lower enemy attack and allow rillaboom to set up and sweep

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

We only rate competed teams unfortunately, wouldn't recommend the idea though

[sand minnow]

ah ok
i suck at building teams anyway
can you help me out a bit somewhere else

[warm crane]

Wrong input it is supposed to be in defense

[warm crane]

It’s supposed to lefties heatran and life orb pao

[warm crane]

Meant to be lefties heatran

[distant stump]

assumed so

[stoic fable]

Hey, I need help tweaking my team. I'm kind of at a standstill, and am having trouble improving (1200elo).

version a: https://pokepast.es/e5d63970b164abd6
version b: <https://pokepast.es/234cc9954a458fd8]

A was running Arcanine-Hisui, B is now running Chi-Yu. I feel as though Chi-Yu vibes more with the overall game plan, and Arcanine feels super vulnerable in this meta due to the prevalence of water. Hatterene is in there purely as a counterpick to TrickRoom.

[north tree]

For version B, replace psychic and tera blast on chi yu for overheat/fire blast and snarl and have tera ghost (run a bulkier set too). Flutter mane should have a bulky set with moonblast shadow ball dazzling gleam proect. Hatterene can be turned into a farigiraf with imprison trick room. Brute bonnet can convert to amoonguss and landorus therian with a choice scarf can replace roaring moon, giving you a reliable slow mode with lando amoonguss flutter mane/chi-yu and farigiraf.

[lost phoenix]

psychic is okay but definitely run overheat on chi yu

[winter gulch]

what does psychic do

[stoic fable]

Okidogis and whatnot

[lost phoenix]

hit urshifu rs and hands

[stoic fable]

okay so. I ended up going Farigiraf

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9vgc2023regulatione-1978861274

I like it a lot

and it ends up allowing counterplay to Dragonite Chien Pao

[stoic fable]

• Fluttermane: Yeah I feel like my Flutter dies a lot.
• Hatterene: I had the same thought and changed it
• Brute Bonnet, really? Even with fast spore? 107 x 2 = 214spe. regenerator is nice tho.
• Landorus therian > moon? even with band + sun?

[north tree]

Brute bonnets fast spores are a lot less useful if you consider amoonguss can live more than 2 hits due to a way better typing and therefore get more and better spores.

[north tree]

Lol I forgot to finish my sentence I must have accidentally pressed send

[warm crane]

https://pokepast.es/a3a400c03203a92d

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

This team looks plenty fine

Just remember to give Chien Pao a nature

[warm crane]

Okay will do

[wild sinew]

But nothing needs to be changed here, respectable 6, correct sets, good EVs
Good luck on ladder

[warm crane]

Thanks

[frosty wadi]

https://pokepast.es/8fbb5f17961cd467 my team for vgc swiss tour top 22, wanted to build dozo at some point so i decided to do it now, the dozo outsped ogerpon and ohkod amoong with tblast flying. The tatsugiri spread was just from pikalytics though it outsped base 135's (no booster or scarf) the flutter mane lived hyper voice from ursaluna-bm into +1 ursaluna bm hyper voice and also got speed booster. standard chien pao, slightly faster amoongus, and dnite outspeeds adamant chien Pao and modest flutter mane after an icy wind, I faced bage1 who is a very good player and I lost but I took a game off of them so I'm happy, also happy I made it this far, and btw veil setup spam is broken. AND YES IT VALIDATES

[wild sinew]

I do think Chi Yu/Ogerpon works better than Amoonguss here
Amoon works better on teams where it can freely switch, which Dozo teams don't like to do, why you'll see the successful ones be very HO. Ideally you want a Nuke with a decent speed tier, to benefit from Flutter Mane's Icy Wind, And I think the two I mentioned are best for the role

I also think Giga Impact is worse here, this type of team doesn't want to give up a turn with the recharge and you can lose so much momentum through it. Outrage, while harder to pilot at first, is incredible as a substitute for clean up

It also gives you more situations where you don't Tera, which is really good for Dondozo

[frosty wadi]

yeah was thinking abt just doing 2-2-2 (dozo giri, chi flutter, dnite pao) but wanted smth different, maybe ill replace dnite with lando, pult ogerpon or another phys attacker and put chi instead of oger

maybe later ill build dozo veils since then its p much the same as dozo glimm which i also built a team with and did p well with

thanks for the insight though

just realized youre the valiant person

just dont know what to replace dnite with, thinking between ursh, lando, pult, and ogerpon just idk which one would be best, hell even maybe arcanine-h

[wild sinew]

I think ursh or just keeping Dnite is your best bet for what the team wants but Pult and Ogerpon are to be experimented with imo, Harc and Lando not so much because you'd rather save Tera for Dondozo, and Intim is overall less beneficial for Hyper offensive teams like this

[frosty wadi]

yeah true

ogerpon is just fun, esp i could do base ogerpon for the speed boost

[warm crane]

https://pokepast.es/49d44fd44f5856ce does it need any changes

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Not as of now, it's fine

[warm crane]

what would you change later so i know

@wild sinew

[wild sinew]

Can't say

The meta may change later but rn the team is good

[warm crane]

okay

[plain nebula]

Tried to test with politoed and Ludicolo any things that I can fix?

https://pokepast.es/8fc8e732bfc49d39

[wild sinew]

Ludicolo is just not good, outclassed by Basculegion and Scarf Urshifu as a rain sweeper. You're not using Politoed for what it has, and more like a worse Peli/Torn

Gholdengo is good here but does not need Max speed and appreciates more bulk w Modest. Relevant for set up mons to live hits and it's 84 speed tier isn't outspeeding much you care about

Tornadus is unnecessary here, you'd rather a Grass type like Rillaboom/Amoonguss/Wellspring for a better Amoonguss matchup

I also don't like Landorus here, you already have an intimidator and it stacks weaknesses to the type you're buffing without bringing much you're interested in. You could make Politoed the better perish song set and use Gothitelle here (note, very hard to pilot), or if you didn't pick Rillaboom you could add Tera Grass Iron Hands to threaten opposing Water types and overall be a good bulky pokemon for the team

I'd recommend a Choice Band set for Hisuian Arcanine for the damage output, especially on your rock slides, while keeping intimidate utility. Clear Amulet doesn't benefit you that much when the two main intimidators do not want to go near your team

[plain nebula]

Should I replace Poli with peli then?

[wild sinew]

Assumed you wanted to keep poli

You can use Peli the same way but Goth isn't an option

[plain nebula]

I might make another team with Poli and goth

Not really at my best with perish trapping

[wild sinew]

It's not an easy archetype and it struggles rn

[round blade]

https://pokepast.es/e2db071c64cc208b

[wild sinew]

When the mon you built around is the weaklink of the team..

Harc is just really strong on the team

[round blade]

fun

[wild sinew]

Rilla prefers U Turn or HHP over Stantrum
And Torn gains more value from Dark/Steel/Flying as Tera types

[frosty wadi]

volc is usually ran on screens btw but also u seem weak to tr a bit

or with more setup

[wild sinew]

Trying to build Volc you'd Def go screens yeah

[round blade]

harcanine spread?

[distant stump]

44/204+/28/-/4/228

For band

Also yeah harc is just a bit better there :(

[hot monolith]

https://pokepast.es/847f8c7670aeebd2 would love some thoughts on this team, still trying to get RM to work as the focal point

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[wild sinew]

Your team would appreciate Tera Grass Iron Hands as a better mu into Amoonguss and Urshifu, with access to Roaring Moon and Landorus, Fire's ability to eat Hearthflame isn't needed.

I'd also recommend Ogerpon Wellspring / Amoonguss as the redirector, they generally have better synergy with your team and exist as Amoonguss + Urshifu switch in. Amoonguss can safely click Spore into 3/5 of your team and even safer w Tera, redirection is also still plenty threatening. Scarf Urshifu threats 4/5 of your other team members and Iron Hands can't switch in. Both are pretty Dire matchups and you want to dedicate the redirection slot to answering them

Would also suggest taking a look at Smogon Strategy Dex for EVs, not a fan of some of your current ones but if you're confident then they aren't major issues

[hot monolith]

Freind guard not enough value to warrant clefairy?

[frosty wadi]

doesn't do much except for that and the team doesn't fit it too much

[wild sinew]

It's enough to make the pokemon good, but your matchups into Urshifu and Amoonguss are pretty bad and you'd rather use the Grass type redirectors to make up for it

[hot monolith]

that makes sense

Ogerpon would make the team play at higher tempo than Amoongus right?

[wild sinew]

Yes

[umbral valve]

Can anyone give me some advice on this team. I want to know how to use it better. I also want my sixth Pokemon to be raging bolt although it's not out yet. I believe it's just a better hands. https://pokepast.es/8b77fe4453905500 I want this team to be an empoleon team

[drifting onyx]

New VGC RMT @normal stream, @wild sinew, @austere wasp, @hot wren, @wanton abyss. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[solemn shadow]

https://pokepast.es/71e1662e0619fda0
So I made this very SCUFFED regen team and I struggled a lot with choosing tera types.

[distant stump]

So your detirmed to use empoleon?

I think the biggest problem im seeing is a general lack of direction

Cresselia and empoleon to a lesser extent want to go trick room, wellspring and chi yu want to go more balance/ho and harcanine is there for not that much reason

there is also 0 form of speed control outside of trick room which most your team really doesen't want up

I think figure out a direction you want to go in and I'll try to think of something

[distant stump]

You are right in saying that team is very scuffed

Toxapex, mienshao, gliscore and thundurus therian are all basically unviable

Gholdengo and amoonguss are the best on the team but again dont really have much to suport them

[umbral valve]

Sorry for the late reply but yes

[distant stump]

I think assult vest is the best set as you have

honestly I have 0 idea what to build with empoleon

I think your best bet is running stuff like hands or harc

that either bate intimidate for empoleon or appreciate the defensive typing of steel/water

[umbral valve]

Yeah I was thinking about using hands or raging bolt when it comes out

[distant stump]

Hands is a good start

I think more balance with hands and harc with speed control from stuff like booster flutter

[umbral valve]

Yeah

So what should I do for speed control

[distant stump]

Sorry for the delay

I think speed booster flutter, moon or bundle with tailwind and icy are good starts

im leaning towards flutter there

[umbral valve]

Sorry whats moon

[wanton abyss]

Yeah speed control right now is in between tailwind setters like Torn and Moon, Icy Winders like Bundle, Flutter, AlolaTales, and random support mons, and trick room Pokémon like Cress, Oranguru, Armadeedee stuff even though TR armadeedee is throwing etc

Moon = Roaring Moon

[umbral valve]

Oh roaring moon

[distant stump]

Should have specified

[wanton abyss]

it’s not always about going fast, it’s about going first

[distant stump]

I dont think you really want torn on that team

[wanton abyss]

T Wave is also acceptable speed control! It just makes people hate you

[umbral valve]

That's good 😊

[wanton abyss]

this is a generalized list

[distant stump]

stacking electric weakness and not its main benefit is weather control and setting up fast

so your sweepers

im assuming you will play more bulky

so its not really needed

[umbral valve]

Yeah maybe

[distant stump]

moon has great support and damage in acrobatics, knock off and breakwind swipe

flutter has great coverage and fake out immunity

[wanton abyss]

I think Bulky Torn teams are fine, in general! I agree with Choruto here, you don’t need Torn here

[distant stump]

Yeah for sure

Just not with stuff like empo and hands

[umbral valve]

So what should I do?

[distant stump]

I think start with Empoleon, Iron hands, Roaring moon/flutter mane, and maybe lando t and amoonguss

balance stuff

[umbral valve]

Yeah

[wanton abyss]

oh wait this is an Empoleon team

I’m suddenly way more invested

[umbral valve]

Yeah kinda

[distant stump]

He wants to use empo

I think balance with av is the way to go

[umbral valve]

Yeah I was going for that

[wanton abyss]

If you’re using Empoleon, I think there are two ways to go

Bulky AV with Lando and balance, like you’ve done

or Yawn + STAB

either way I think it has to be run with an intimidator, and I think that intimidator should be Landorus-Therian

[umbral valve]

Can I ask what you mean as in stab

Is it for empo

[wanton abyss]

STAB = Same Type Attack Bonus

e.g. You get a damage boost for moves that are the same type as the user

[distant stump]

https://pokepast.es/2b92add9dfad43d8 Alright

very very rough

outline

[wanton abyss]

So for Empoleon, that’s Water and Steel moves

[distant stump]

well it looks fine I think

[umbral valve]

Yeah looks good

[wanton abyss]

double AV lol

[distant stump]

yeah I just like

[wanton abyss]

I think Amulet Hands or Sitrus Empoleon could be fjne here

[umbral valve]

Can you even do that

[distant stump]

threw together some sets

no

not in doubles

[wanton abyss]

God I wish

[umbral valve]

Ok

[distant stump]

Yeah sitrus is fine

[umbral valve]

Yeah same