Smogon Doubles Rates

[teal acorn]

https://pokepast.es/01ddfc563a3e0e07

heres the latest iteration

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[teal acorn]

would be nice if i can improve it more

[rose juniper]

there is quite a lot going on here

the pokemon don't really fit together and the sets also aren't optimal

are these just the pokemon you like and wanna keep using or do you want to build a competitive team?

@teal acorn

[teal acorn]

Hmm tbh I found that the Pokemons create many synergies, helping in countering many play styles.
Tho yeh, the stat dists r not optimal

Am just a beginner afterall ig

[rose juniper]

I see, so I assume you want a competitive team then?

[teal acorn]

No am trying to create a competitively viable team (tho I want it to be fun to use)

[rose juniper]

I understand

[teal acorn]

Lol

[rose juniper]

can I be brutally honest then?

[teal acorn]

Yeh sure lol

[rose juniper]

those mons just don't fit together at all, perhaps you might think that they have synergy and counter many play styles but thats prob just the garbage you found on low ladder that is barely a playstyle to begin with

[teal acorn]

Hmm

[rose juniper]

the mons are all over the place with strange speed tiers combined and nothing to take advantage of the speed

ill be honest, id just pick 1 or 2 mons you like from that team and scrap the rest

and start from there with some help from here (the RMT section)

[teal acorn]

Lol ok

Wut do u think bout the wheezing building specifically btw

I think am going to keep wheezing and incin

[rose juniper]

I just don't understand why its on the team to begin with tbh, its more of a hindrance id say then anything else

[rose juniper]

thats fine, incin is very versitile and can be used on most teams

[teal acorn]

Hmm

[rose juniper]

weezing is also fine but that requires a team that takes advantage of its ability

[teal acorn]

Ohh

[rose juniper]

atm its not really usable imo unless you are running a cheese strat with it

but if you like it we can ofcourse keep it

but if you are looking for strong fairy and or posion attackers there are better mons

[teal acorn]

Ye I mean... It's kinda fun to use

[rose juniper]

but we now got 2 support mons

so we still need to decide on what type of attackers we want

do you prefer fast or bulky attackers?

[teal acorn]

I don't rly have a preference

Can go with whatever fits in the meta best

[rose juniper]

both fit in the meta, it just depends on how you execute it

any offensive mons you like/wanna use?

[teal acorn]

I kinda wanted to use red card mimikyu but ig it's dumb to

[rose juniper]

Its not good, but if you like it and wanna use it we can

Then id say you are best of using slow bulky mons and going with a trickroom team

Mimikyu learns trickroom so thats good

And on your original team you had porygon 2 who also learns that so we can also use pory2 with trickroom

That leaves us 2 slots to fill

Which we wanna use for attacking focused mons

Stuff thats very strong and bulky fits best here

So think of an Iron hands or an ursaluna (bloodmoon)

Just look for stuff which is below like 60 or 70 base speed with an attack or special attack stat of 110ish+

If you are struggling with sets you can always ask here or check the smogon dex for sets

But remember to check for the dou sets and not the ou sets

[teal acorn]

Hmm

[teal acorn]

Ow didn't knew that lol

[teal acorn]

Okkkk

Thanks bro 🙏

[lost bough]

https://pokepast.es/8499e8613a30f992
yo been playing around with quaquaval and upperhand in general, is there any replacement for my bulky hariyama?

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[rose juniper]

my first thought would be hands

but what are you looking for?

[lost bough]

also for a-9 tails im using timid max speed and spa

honestly im looking for more of a bulky offense

[rose juniper]

so just a stronger hariyama?

[lost bough]

i mean i guess?

i wanted to run 2 upperhand was my thought

a bulky upperhand user

[rose juniper]

then iron hands seems the logical option to me

kinda same in the sp def/hp department but considerably better bulk and is also stronger

[lost bough]

ic

[rose juniper]

while keeping fake out and the fighting type on your team

[lost bough]

should i use the booster energy item?

or do i run AV

[rose juniper]

no I wouldn't recommend booster, I prefer clear amulet with a swords dance set but if AV is also fine

[lost bough]

i see

do you have a set for AV iron hand

[peak crypt]

AV Hands is superior to Swords Dance Hands in the majority of situations

[rose juniper]

I do

[peak crypt]

Fake Out / Wild Charge / your choice of Drain Punch or Close Combat / your choice of Heavy Slam, Ice Punch, or Volt Switch

max Attack max SpD will cut it but there are some more complex spreads that do slightly different things

[rose juniper]

its not my set so don't ask me the exact reasons for the EVs but here it is

Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 112 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Fake Out
• Wild Charge
• Close Combat
• Heavy Slam

otherwise I think the smogon dex should also have one if you don't like this one

[lost bough]

alr thx for the help

[rose juniper]

👍

[round wind]

https://pokepast.es/7a5c7621eeaf2d6f first time teambuilding, want to know if there's anything I can do to change it. I really like having Diance/Urslaluna as they're two of my fav pokemon

[torpid moat]

would you be against ursaluna-blood-moon? It requires less support and its damage is more stable overall. You should also run grass tera diancie for ground/grass/water resist, and dark tera sinistcha

tinkaton is the weakest mon here, it could be a walking wake or something else with a positive lando-i matchup

[round wind]

i tested both and found more success with normal ursaluna, felt like i got a lot more output with him especially with torkoal and diancie leaning more on special attacking. i like ur ideas for teras and ill implement them in my team.

i also will implement ur walking wake suggestion

should i just run meta ivs/evs/nature or is there a better suggestion

[torpid moat]

make sure you actually set your speed IVs to 0

oh also sinistcha itself should be running tr

over shadow ball probably

diancie can potentially run different items than wp too

[round wind]

mkay will do 🙂

[round wind]

ty for this suggestion, lets my team be flexible and walking wake + torkoal does sm damage

[hot zinc]

https://pokepast.es/37392d63bd551b38

does this look decent?

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[hot zinc]

i usually lead with incineroar and sinistcha and fakeout to setup a safe tr and parting shot into snorlax

while rage powdering

[brittle spade]

the team started well and ended in shambles

you have an archaludon and no way to set rain

you have a choice scarf cresselia which is a bad choice to support setup snorlax

just take the sample cresselia set like you did for the first three mons

and get rid of archaludon

for like, landorus, so you can hit incineroar

[hot zinc]

trick choice scarf cresselia stays

cresselia is bulky enough to take one hit to use trick, and then you can just lunar blessing the hp back

archaludon hits incineroar pretty well but landorus could be better ill try it out

[brittle spade]

there are many scenarios where you just can't trick and end up having to use trick room with a scarf mon and switch out, when you would rather have it stay in and click lunar blessing.
scarf cresselia is particularly bad when paired with a belly drum mon for that reason. if you're determined to keep using it then this is as far as we can help you

[peak crypt]

I agree that the Archaludon doesn’t belong here

I also think Amoonguss Sinistcha is redundant; while double redirect with something like Snorlax isn’t bad, double Rage Powder is

You will struggle against Grass types or anything with Safety Goggles, and even Tera Grass will cause some difficulties

Swapping one of those two for an Ogerpon will probably work out better in the long run if you want to keep double redirect

It helps Snorlax a bit less but it covers more opponents and makes the team a little more consistent overall

Archaludon could pretty easily just be a Raging Bolt—you could even run Calm Mind rather than Assault Vest, which works well with double redirection

And my last suggestion

okay actually second to last

Run a neutral speed nature on Cresselia and run 108 EVs in Speed

If you’re going to run Trick Scarf you better be fast enough to actually make it matter

And 108 means you hit 349 with Scarf, one point faster than Alolan Ninetales

So you can Trick it a Scarf as it clicks Aurora Veil and force it to switch out

Which gives you the opportunities to set up that you’re trying to create with Trick Scarf anyway

Also make it Tera Dark so Tornadus doesn’t just click Prankster Taunt and ruin your whole evening

My actual last suggestion is “Snorlax is about as viable as sandpaper in your socks and the whole team would be improved by removing it” but we’re working with what we have

[peak crypt]

@hot zinc

[torpid moat]

you can try belly drum iron hands btw if you're gonna drum, it's even more fun to use and requires less support

[hot zinc]

ill try it out

ty

[stable gyro]

Any way to improve this Power Of Alchemy + Dancer team?
https://pokepast.es/386cf50fe3092bd5

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[tight spire]

Dancer teams like this aren't particularly viable, but if anything I kind of feel the Slowbro G is just there without much reason

[stable gyro]

What would you replace G Slowbro with then?

[tight spire]

I can't say given the team, maybe a smeargle or something if you really wanna do the whole Muk thing (despite Minimize being banned in DOU)

I would say that liligant could use sleep powder over synthesis

[stable gyro]

Ooo good idea

[peak crypt]

The issue with this team is that all of the required Pokémon for the strategy are pretty terrible

Muk and Oricorio are awful, Lilligant is good on exactly one team archetype, and Flamigo is never as good as anyone actually wants it to be

Kommo-o is fine and Clang Soul being a dance move is funny, but that means your last slot has to be a really good Pokémon to try to make up for the rest of the team being pretty weak

To that end I’d probably suggest either Chien-Pao to just rip some holes or one of the big Fake Out users—Rillaboom, Incineroar, or Iron Hands

An Ogerpon or Sinistcha to provide redirection should the partner strats fail (and they will fail) can’t hurt either

redirection and Fake Out both buy you free turns to click your setup moves

[marble jasper]

First time making an actual competitive team, I am sorry if this is the wrong channel, but heres my team.
Please critique it to the maximum, I want to perfect this team
This is a Doubles Over Used Team.

my thought process is to have Dragonite and Grimmsnarl first

Dragonite changes his Teratype to normal and goes dragondance,
Grimmsnarl goes in and lays up some screens then after done throws a parting shot

then I kinda switch to whoever i think would be a good pick (Tyranitar if i want throw some sand in, or switch to tornadus if i need speed)

then games goes idk

[torpid moat]

This is the right place! In the future though, try to use the "upload to pokepaste" button at the bottom of your team instead of linking an image.

In terms of team comp, the screens side makes sense, but then you've got a ton of priority and only ttar who truly takes advantage of tailwind. If you want to try to go for both tw + screens, you may want more role compression and faster mons, like maybe running alolatales alone instead of grimm, and then a follow me user like ogerpon-hearthflame instead to keep up offensive pressure. In this kind of team you would also usually run sheer force landorus-i instead of ttar.

For dnite, inner focus is far better than multiscale, especially if you're going for normal tera. Inner focus gives both fake out and intimidate immunity, which completely flips dnite's matchup against mons like incineroar and rilla. Choice band espeed is the most common set for this. It's also usually paired with chien-pao to further boost espeed damage. Note that pao+nite teams tend to clash pretty hard with screens though because pao is so frail and dnite cares about immediate power + prio.

Calm mind raging bolt wouldn't want to run draco meteor and lose its boosts, it'd rather have just dragon pulse/thunderclap/calm mind/protect. It also wants to invest in hp, not speed, it's not outspeeding much anyways.

If you're going the screens direction, take a look at sd kingambit and clear amulet iron hands, both are very strong on their own and take great advantage of the extra bulk.

[marble jasper]

thanks for the pokepaste tip

So i took ur ideas into consideration, what do you think about this?

https://pokepast.es/dced64591de0576f

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[marble jasper]

(dont mind kingambit's ability, forgor change it to supreme overlord)

[night edge]

for DOU it should be Defiant

for Intim guys like Incin

[marble jasper]

gotcha

[torpid moat]

sorry, I wasn't clear as I could be here
What I meant was that screens, dnite, and tailwind can't properly coexist, you ideally want to commit to just 1, but 2 is possible if you build your team in a specific way. Here, your tailwind is completely useless, as you only have priority and slow attackers that would prefer trick room support instead.

Also, I suggested hands and gambit as replacements for mons under screens, not additions. If you use them together here, your team becomes incredibly weak to lando-i and opposing iron hands because everything loses to the same stuff

paonite and veil(screens) are both valid team comps on their own, which are you more interested in building?

here are some examples of each: https://pokepast.es/5405d24e80cb3310
https://pokepast.es/12c58dcfc1aaa293

If you really really want both screens + paonite, try a 6 like ninetales-a/chien pao/dnite/iron hands/blood moon/sinistcha

[marble jasper]

i really want to keep tyranitar and dragonite, everyone else i could care less about lol

how do I make that work with your suggestions?

[torpid moat]

ah, then you don't actually care about screens then

[marble jasper]

yeeee lol

i just thought tyranitar with tailwind + screens will make it super stronk

tyranitar being my favorite, and dragonite being up there i just wanted to prop them up

but if there is a better way to do this i am open to it

[torpid moat]

in that case try just a generic pao offense build with nonsash pao/dnite/ttar/torn/ogerpon-hearthflame/lando-i

waterpon over firepon also an option

[marble jasper]

hmmm okay! I will build something and show ya

[marble jasper]

https://pokepast.es/393afd884a0a2e7c

Idk i feel weird with these movesets/items, thoughts?

[marble jasper]

it's getting very late here, i am going to bed, lookng forward to your response when i wake up

thanks you so much for your help!!

🙂

[torpid moat]

try rock slide over eq on ttar, cb rock slide will be the move you click like 60% of the time

you want that lando set with sandsear or substitute over psychic, except on landorus-incarnate, the faster one with sheer force

landorus-therian is a physical focused mon that leans more towards bulk with intimidate

make your waterpon jolly, and give it follow me or encore over swords dance

Ogerpon (Ogerpon-Wellspring) (F) @ Wellspring Mask  
Ability: Water Absorb  
Tera Type: Water  
EVs: 148 HP / 108 Atk / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Ivy Cudgel  
- Horn Leech  
- Follow Me  
- Spiky Shield

for teras, try ghost on ttar + pao to avoid fake out/fighting moves, torn can have steel for general bulk, lando can have poison for boosting sludge bomb or steel

[marble jasper]

alright looks like i followed it well, I am going to now test it in the game

https://pokepast.es/d7d7815c95395bb3

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[marble jasper]

thanks! here it is again if u wanted to check if i did everything right

[torpid moat]

landorus-incarnate, not therian

the one with sheer force

on builder it looks like just landorus

also you would prob want stomping tantrum outrage (or dragon claw or scale shot) dnite over eq + fire punch

[marble jasper]

ohhhh my bad

fixing this one asap

https://pokepast.es/4ce7d3b4d3b10af1

arlight should be fixed!

Thanks for your patience

and help

[torpid moat]

physical basc-f is still better than special, the only reason to use basc is for last respects

archaludon prefers assault vest so it can switch moves, locking into electro shot can be very bad

also it usually runs electro/dragon/steel/body press on av

[lament cargo]

I use it for surf spam which seems to work well

[peak crypt]

Dark Pulse doesn’t really hit anything your other moves can’t hit, but Flash Cannon does hit Fairy types and is stronger against neutral targets

[torpid moat]

gouging fire doesn't fit on rain at all, you would want something like landorus to kill opposing arch for you

[torpid moat]

kingdra is better at this with muddy water, or even ludicolo

but also surf spam is very easy to wall in the current format because of mons like waterpon and rilla

kingdra gets hurricane for grasses and doesn't hit allies

[upper valve]

Anyone wanna rate my OU doubles team

I have 2, one is a sample team I saw that performs well

but the other is a gimmicky team that I think could be funny to use or even good

https://pokepast.es/825023bd76d8ce7b

general premise is setup veil, then get anyone with ally switch and necrozma, and swap around to be funny

I thought of using follow me as well

Follow me seems like an overall better move

[peak crypt]

Follow Me is in fact a better move

[upper valve]

I figured as much

[peak crypt]

Ally Switch is on the same counter as Protect and can fail when used repeatedly

[upper valve]

What about wide guard?

[peak crypt]

Wide Guard increments the counter but will always succeed

[upper valve]

I see. And lastly, Rage powder. (amooooongusssss)

[peak crypt]

So like if you use Wide Guard then Ally Switch, your Ally Switch can fail

fungo

Ogerpon is generally a better fit than Amoonguss on snow teams

[upper valve]

yeah I had both as insurance but now that you mention follow me is better

I'll just have follow me as main, then wide guard as insurance

cutting ally switch

Ill replace meow for inciniroar I think

[peak crypt]

You could instead do like

Indeedee-F over Meowscarada and run Calm Mind Necrozma instead

[upper valve]

That's true actually

[peak crypt]

You get Expanding Force

[upper valve]

I'll change the paste gimmie 2 minutes, and if you could lmk what else to change

btw do all the ogerpon variants know follow me?

[peak crypt]

Yep

[upper valve]

would you say the water one is the best one to use here

[peak crypt]

Yes

It’s good into Incineroar and a lot of the things that beat snow

[upper valve]

good to know

there's two indeeded f builds

eject button or terrain extender

I presume extender is the one I want

[peak crypt]

Ehh I’d actually recommend Safety Goggles or Sitrus Berry

I think both offer a little more utility overall than Button or Extender

[upper valve]

what is safety goggles good for really

I thought the psychic terrain protects you from status effects?

or maybe am I mistaken

https://pokepast.es/70ed7bbdffd723d5

there

I'm a little uncertain about what moves I wanted on indeedee

i might run dragon dance

over calm mind

[peak crypt]

well the idea is you're running fully special Necrozma and using Expanding Force

EForce / CM / Earth Power / Protect

[upper valve]

on necrozma

good to know

been using photon geyser

[peak crypt]

Photon Geyser is a cool move but Expanding Force sweeps teams

[upper valve]

whats the advantage of earth power over earthquake

oh spa

[plush otter]

https://pokepast.es/98bf3a5d2a8200cb

anything i can improve on?

[daring blade]

calm mind physical necrozma?

cant u use protect or something better?

[halcyon panther]

Photon Geyser (Gen 9)

This move becomes a physical attack if the user's Attack is greater than its Special Attack, including stat stage changes. This move and its effects ignore the Abilities of other Pokemon.

Type

Psychic

Category

Special

Power

100

Accuracy

100

PP

5 (8)

Priority

0

Target

Any adjacent

Flags

• Blocked by protection moves.
• Can be copied by Mirror Move.

[daring blade]

it special attack

[torpid moat]

make sure your torkoal is quiet, also run ghost tera lilligant to dodge fake out without terrain

I don't think you have the support necessary for SD luna, try headlong rush over it so you're more flexible in EQing through grassy terrain and wide guard and without hitting allies

I'd also consider a different indeedee item or tera like sitrus and dark or dragon/fire

indeedee can usually survive most individual hits, and sitrus can help prevent it getting 2hkod

which makes sash less useful, especially because you're so reliant on terrain + tr in your team

as a side note, armarouge is not optimal for this kind of team, and neither is such a heavy focus on both sun and psy terrain, but to change that would mean basically making a new team

[marble jasper]

https://pokepast.es/b817d21b63428ad0

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[marble jasper]

I feel like I am doing something wrong with this trick room team

Any thoughts? I got 5 pokemon, idk if i should get another special attack slow boi or a support mon like amoooooooongus

[torpid moat]

full trick room is an inherently hyper offensive team archetype

the game plan is to set tr as reliably as possible, then overwhelm your opponent with offense during your limited number of tr turns

you can run defensive mons like amoonguss on tr, but only for the purpose of making the trick room set safer using rage powder

your team rn is way too defensive, ting lu is very weak offensively and slowbro and cress are both very defensive

you're allowed to have bulky mons on tr, but it has to be for the purpose of easing tr set

[marble jasper]

I mean they set up the trick room no? Shouldn't i want them to live as long as possible? or is there a better way to do it?

[torpid moat]

you want to have support mons to make trick room easier to set

for example fake out iron hands would be way stronger than ting lu

you can also run offensive trick room setters like diancie if you have enough support on your team through role overlap

[marble jasper]

should i replace slowbro for diancie?

[torpid moat]

the most important aids for setting tr are fake out, follow me, and priority blocking

it's not so much about replacement as it is building a better team to start with

you want to plan ahead what your mix of tr setter, attacker, and disruption will be, and what mons can overlap in multiple roles

indeedee is another great example of role overlap, it's a tr setter on its own, but it also provides great disruption with follow me and priority blocking psychic terrain

priority blocking meaning blocking fake out and prankster taunt

there are teams out there with diancie and torkoal, but what's more important is that you learn the planning process so you can make your own teams

[marble jasper]

hmmmm i see

I will start replanning then haha, thank you for the ideas i should be considering

in building a team

[torpid moat]

this one is from the dwcop dump, it's a bit nontraditional and weighs harder on the offense side: https://pokepast.es/3ce39bd614287230

it runs 2 offensive setters and only 1 disruption/defensive setter in indeedee

as a result it has more unbalanced matchups than normal and will have a worse time against mons like gholdengo and chi yu

this is a very popular snow tr team style inspired by fangame10: https://pokepast.es/225860dbc3782cae

it also has flexibility with ninetales and sinistcha does a lot of the heavy lifting on the support side

[marble jasper]

ahh these are very interesting takes on how to build the teams

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-spongebob-squarepants-wow-mindblown-gif-13169052

DAMN

these are really cool

[cosmic pasture]

https://pokepast.es/d125eb20c666bebf

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[cosmic pasture]

Im not good enough to really make something goofy like mirror herb swagger torn to work lol

[tardy dragon]

https://pokepast.es/a1bf53a63d1cb130

I want advice please

Main mon is greninja he is the focus of the team.

[cosmic pasture]

Fly isnt a good move run brave bird

Id recommend replacing corv pex and valiant altogether

You want more spread moves bc its a doubles format

[cosmic pasture]

Try a greninja archaludon pelipper rillaboom core

[brittle spade]

try this https://pokepast.es/c94b8fba045492d5

[cosmic pasture]

You really have every archetype huh

Thankss

Own tempo swagger man

[brittle spade]

pls refrain from commenting on other teams though, otherwise we need to reread what you wrote

even if what you wrote is correct

[cosmic pasture]

K mb

[brittle spade]

not really, i just remembered you want own tempo with self swagger, its been done before

[brittle spade]

you need to use mons from DOU, not OU, otherwise you will unnecessarily struggle on the ladder

don't expect greninja to do much in dou though

you could try something like this maybe https://pokepast.es/85e575a047792aa4

youd have great synergy with archaludon

passive pokemon like corviknight and toxapex are very bad in dou compared to stuff that reacts more dynamically to whats currently on the field, like incineroar and amoonguss

[tardy dragon]

Alright

@cosmic pasture my first team I made that I consider actually ok and has won me a few battles has greninja pelipper arch and a few others

I'm gonna try your suggestion ofc but I wanna show my first team

Hold on

https://pokepast.es/29dc98236961a609

First one I made

[tardy dragon]

https://pokepast.es/c72dda81eae3da8b

[peak crypt]

Kyogre is not legal in DOU

Neither is Urshifu. If this is a VGC team you should use the VGC Rates channel instead

[tardy dragon]

Ok

[tardy dragon]

Wb this team?

Wyt

Ik it's legal already bc I have used it

[peak crypt]

Neither Cinderace nor Landorus-T are particularly good right now, and some of your sets are a little awkward

Archaludon should never use Earthquake, Greninja’s set does nothing, Glimmora has Meteor Beam without Power Herb, and Pelipper looks like it’s trying to do something a Pelipper shouldn’t be doing

[tardy dragon]

Greninja does something

Water shuriken into arch for stamina

It's priority so hard to ko gren fast enough

[peak crypt]

If you’re building around Greninja, why is that its role?

[tardy dragon]

Oh for that team I was using him as support to arch

[peak crypt]

You could accomplish that just as easily with a Beat Up user

[tardy dragon]

Bc I saw it on youtube

And wanted to do it

[peak crypt]

being on YouTube doesn’t make something good

In fact Greninja is probably the worst side Arch hitter—you only get three hits and Stamina doesn’t reduce the damage from Water Shuriken

DOU games also typically don’t switch as much, so a support oriented Greninja running Spikes isn’t as effective as it might be in singles

[tardy dragon]

Ok

Just found out in vgc they banned battle bond greninja for some reason

We live in a world where urshifu gets to run free while greninja is being nerfed a crap ton and then partially banned in the same gen

I say partially banned because battle bond is like his only stand out thing

Because meowscarada beats em in the protean department

I was already devastated but this is just too much 😭

If only I was able to play comp back in sun and moon

[peak crypt]

Battle Bond is only available through the demo for Sun and Moon

That’s why it is banned in VGC

[tardy dragon]

But aren't mythical pokemon unbanned?

[peak crypt]

Not in VGC

VGC and Doubles OU are not the same format

[tardy dragon]

And wasn't ash greninja allowed back in gen 7

In vgc

Or was he banned there too

[peak crypt]

It might have been allowed because the SM demo was freely available

But now you can no longer get it

[tardy dragon]

😭

I saw battle bond in a yt vid so I thought it was usable

Back to the yt vid logic ik

[peak crypt]

It is legal in Doubles OU, which is, again, a different format

Make sure you’re playing the one you want to play

[tardy dragon]

But I was hoping to use em in scarlet and violet to reach master rank

[tardy dragon]

Why Poison Tera Sludge wave gren?

Also sorry I somehow missed everything you said entirely until now.

[peak crypt]

Then you should ask for help in the VGC Rates channel, because Battle Stadium uses VGC rules

[tardy dragon]

I can't use em in scarlet and violet

Well I can

But it's literally just gonna be worse to do so

Over meowscarada

I'm just gonna do a dou team

For gren

[tardy dragon]

Tried the team out and I won only bc of luck on my first battle

I didn't even check most of the teams stuff

2nd battle I destroyed them

Greninja helped a lot too

I understand Poison Tera now btw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2274412920-x8fsyfa3jsvtsmzh1keiez5ivn7pk3lpw

I think Protect on the sus mushroom could help though

Due to all the self inflicted damage I was doing

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2274418960

3 won 0 lost

Dang

I'm now registered as elgatocat

I used to be gyronitro but no more

I wanna put Protect on amoongus but after finding out what pollen puff does geez

Idk man

[torpid moat]

spore/rp/puff/protect is fairly common

[tardy dragon]

Ok

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2274437881

Changes I'm considering are pelipper Wide Guard for protect and amoongus getting protect

In that battle I would have won if greninja didn't also murder my team

Clear smog gone for protect

I'm also having issues with no ice beam

On greninja

Or no Fairy types

Having no dragon checks besides arch is a issue

Arch is a mild dragon check too

Tbh though I'm not quite sure what to do

So far the team is at 5 wins 2 loses btw

Better then 0 wins 😭

@brittle spade hey do you got any ideas for adding a more dedicated dragon check?

Besides arch

[brittle spade]

you can put tera fairy on archaludon

you also dont have to repeatedly click sludge wave

you have two other moves

i put sludge wave because of the coverage issue greninja has but there are other options

[tardy dragon]

I figured it was strongest bc the Poison typing

Also thanks for looking at the replay to help.

[brittle spade]

it's the same base power as dark pulse

[tardy dragon]

But he is a poison type when he teras

[brittle spade]

yeah but you don't lose the dmg on dark pulse

you just gain dmg on sludge wave

greninja ordinarily has 1.5 times more dmg on dark and water moves

if you tera you gain that on poison type moves as well

[tardy dragon]

Ok

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2274453771

I did the smort

[tardy dragon]

@brittle spade hey thanks for the help! So far I'm at 8 wins 2 losses

This is prlly the best I have done in showdown ever

[brittle spade]

good job

[brittle spade]

you should try sample teams or stuff on the bazaar next if you enjoy the tier

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-sample-teams.3710876/

[peak lichen]

heres my team. im quite new to the format so any tips would be appreciated

Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Ivy Cudgel
• Power Whip
• Low Kick
• Swords Dance

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 140 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Electroweb
• Hydro Pump
• Volt Switch
• Trick

Sneasler @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Dire Claw
• Acrobatics
• Close Combat
• Fake Out

Volcarona @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 84 SpA / 84 SpD / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Heat Wave
• Quiver Dance
• Protect
• Rage Powder

Chien-Pao @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Icicle Crash
• Protect
• Sucker Punch
• Sacred Sword

Rillaboom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature

• Grassy Glide
• Fake Out
• U-turn
• Body Press

[tardy dragon]

Look up pokepaste rq

It's a website that let's you paste this stuff in and turn it into a link that's way smaller and comes with images n stuff to display your team

[tardy dragon]

Alright

https://pokepast.es/e3641f1398f7d56e

I found this team

What do you guys think about it?

It's in the archived sample teams so idk if maybe something is banned or what

[torpid moat]

it's outdated, this was made pre-dlc while flutter mane was still legal

palafin is pretty much unviable now because of waterpon

and because flutter is no longer an important jet punch target

and basc-f is a lot worse due to very high chien-pao usage

[tardy dragon]

Alright

So don't use the archived sample teams

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2274453771

This team is working now but I can't stop having thoughts about making it better somehow

I guess I just need to fight better players to find more weaknesses in the team build to improve more 🤷‍♂️

[torpid moat]

torn is probably unnecessary here, and incin could be an iron hands

[torpid moat]

biggest issues here are that rotom-wash is just too frail and low bst for this format, if you want trick specs look into gholdengo

the volcarona set doesn't really make sense, quiver dance and rage powder have completely opposite purposes

did you mean to run giga drain instead of rage powder?

overall, the team is also very frail

also also, ogerpon is a redirector itself

you don't have sufficient support to really pull off the sd rockpon

and sneasler is more of a vgc thing where you don't have to bring it every game and unburden isn't lost too much on switches

this is a different team comp, but maybe consider something like specs ghold/fm or sd firepon/rilla/pao/tw tornadus offense?

[tardy dragon]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2274718691

I lost this time

Not quite sure what to improve on the team though

[torpid moat]

you have too few reliable attackers

[tardy dragon]

Maybe I just played bad

[torpid moat]

if arch dies the team falls flat

iron hands over incin would've saved you there

[tardy dragon]

Ok

Wb greninja

Greninja has swept before

[torpid moat]

you're aware it's not very good though right?

[tardy dragon]

If I had specs on greninja greninja would have prlly did a double ko at the end

[peak crypt]

realistically Greninja is the worst Pokemon on the team

and it's not particularly close

if you want to keep Greninja we physically can't stop you, but its presence on your team is in fact holding the rest of the team back from success

so you'll have to decide if you want to win as much as possible or if you want to use Greninja and be content with only winning sometimes

[peak crypt]

Greninja would not have pulled a double KO at the end because Roaring Moon used Knock Off on it

using Tera Poison actually ended up being a hindrance because you took extra damage off Knock Off and had to eat a Parting Shot later

[tardy dragon]

I'll just quit altogether then. 😐

[peak crypt]

we can't magically make you the perfect Greninja team, because fast frail attackers are typically pretty weak in doubles formats

they're either completely busted or on the weaker side; their low defenses mean they can get blown over by a lot of stray spread attacks or can be easily focused down by two Pokemon at once, and they usually only avoid this by doing so much damage that they avoid these situations

see things like Chien-Pao and the now banned Deoxys-Attack

Cinderace, Iron Valiant, Infernape, and other similarly built Pokemon are going to have the same problem

[tardy dragon]

Right cool thanks I'll leave

If that's what makes everyone feel better

[cosmic pasture]

https://pokepast.es/d14fe8f67bce7f9f

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[cosmic pasture]

Wanted to try my hand at snow bc i have nothing to do

Im not a fan of bax should i use adamant?

[cosmic pasture]

It’s a noob trap reason #50 we should ban it

[tight spire]

I like seeing a howl bax team, your a9 is a bit vulnerable without protect however, you could tera ghost (but sun teams are harder now) or drop encore maybe, I also think Blizzard may be overall better than freeze dry if you wanna fish for freezes potentially but thats up to you, freeze dry is still really good and hard stomps pelipper and such. cool team though

[cosmic pasture]

Thanks any advice for a hardroom matchup?

Though ig ill just run taunt lando

[torpid moat]

I also think dice bax is unnecessary compared to clam

agree on lack of protect, something like tw + chi yu can blow through this

[cosmic pasture]

Should i run icy wind or smthing?

Any way you can see to fit wide guard?

I just realised clicking buttons wrecks that

[tardy dragon]

I made this replacement iron hands did nothing and I got easily beaten

I'm on a lose streak but I guess you gotta play with your team a bunch or something

So I'll play more matches with the team I guess

Maybe I'm just not good enough to make a uu mon work in ou

https://pokepast.es/80747d382948cb0c

The team currently

Also I have the iron hands stuff still if anyone wants to see how bad I am at cooking stuff

[cosmic pasture]

Its not even duu its below that

[cosmic pasture]

Run 252 spa 252+ spe on torn suggested nature is bs

[torpid moat]

the torn spread is fine

make your greninja timid I guess, modest loses important speed tiers

it also shouldn't be running so many ally-hitting moves

[tardy dragon]

I put Protect on a lot of the mons because of the fact greninja murders everything

If he gets the chance

Including allies

But what move could I even use instead

I won't use hydro pump

I don't like the accuracy

[tardy dragon]

Oh right he is a dru ain't he?

[peak crypt]

Doubles RU doesn’t technically exist so it is Doubles NU

(DUU is our lowest ladder)

[tardy dragon]

Ok

Sucks I like doubles more then singles man.

[peak crypt]

double battles are in fact Just Better

[tardy dragon]

Anyone know how to counter indede?

I think I remember trying taunt one match and it failed I forgot why tho

And only torn has taunt

[torpid moat]

psychic terrain blocks priority moves targeting grounded pokemon, including moves boosted by prankster

you either kill the indeedee or build a team more suited to surviving trick room

[tardy dragon]

I want to swap a support mon out for a 3rd attacker

That can hopefully kill indede

Cause due to battle bond not working with switching out

Greninja is best suited as a late game sweeper

Once I'm certain nothing will be able to tank a hit and ko em

So that just leaves arch

The support mons can mostly do damage still but it's not much

Indeedee needs to die

[torpid moat]

try waterpon over amoong, hands over incin then

or landorus over incin, or lando over torn

[tardy dragon]

Alright

The question is what of the 3 provides support the best and should not be swapped

Incin amoong or torn

I think torn has a good bit of use still

He has a bit of offense for sure and I have gotten a few kills with em although rare

And he has prankster tail wind

Which is great for my frail greninja

I think I would prlly be better off keeping him

[torpid moat]

torn is the most crucial

[tardy dragon]

Amoong us healing is not really too good for greninja however there's potential with arch but normally arch is with pelipper

[torpid moat]

hands and waterpon still provide similar support with fake out and follow me

[tardy dragon]

But amoong us has spore

And rage powder

[torpid moat]

the trick room matchup will still be reasonable with hands and arch

[tardy dragon]

Incin can do some cool swap pivots and stuff which has benefited arch and could help gren too

Thanks to willo wisp chip

And knock off

But a attacker could replace him and provide a equal level of support maybe

[tardy dragon]

Wanna see the hands I made? 😭

Iron Hands @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Fake Out
• Supercell Slam
• Detect
• Belly Drum

My only excuse is that I have not slept in awhile

[torpid moat]

there's your problem

[tardy dragon]

Bc I'm doing the thing where you stay up all night and fall asleep at 8 pm to reset sleep schedule

[torpid moat]

try assault vest fake out/close combat/wild charge/filler

[tardy dragon]

Yeah its silly but I saw belly drum and was thinking ooo

Imagine if that worked

Max attack booster attack belly drum sweep

[torpid moat]

bd hands can work sometimes, it just needs significant support

also it runs sitrus berry

[tardy dragon]

So for my team it won't work

I understand how that can be

[tardy dragon]

Arch is vested

[torpid moat]

no item clause

[tardy dragon]

Oh there aint?

Alright

[tardy dragon]

Wb the Tera Type

Earthquake ice punch or drain punch

[torpid moat]

ice punch

volt switch is the other common choice

grass and dragon tera are pretty common

[tardy dragon]

I don't feel good about wasting the ability tbh

[torpid moat]

it's not a waste, trust me

booster is a waste of an item slot

[tardy dragon]

But the ability

That's a good ability

Just not being used

I'm fine using vest

It's the idea of a electric terrain set up

That I'm pondering

[torpid moat]

quark drive is not a good ability

or rather it's only particularly good on fast mons that care about booster speed, or when miraidon or tapu koko are legal

[tardy dragon]

Wb the ev spread and nature?

It's a max speed bc Tailwind and max attack

Nature is adamant

[torpid moat]

252 atk 252 spdef ada

[tardy dragon]

Anything else you would recommend I change on my team?

Like about natures evs teras etc

Also wait what Tera type

I got flying rn

[torpid moat]

flying is fine, dragon grass water good too

what's the team look like right now?

[tardy dragon]

I'll poke paste it rq

[torpid moat]

use the "upload to pokepaste" button at the bottom of your team and send that link instead

[ruby patio]

Oh, right, my bad

[torpid moat]

I will say that it seems like you only have a single trick room setter, which is not a good idea at all for full trick room

[tardy dragon]

https://pokepast.es/e305cdf3b6bfe339

[torpid moat]

you probably want indeedee or porygon2 over the glastrier

[tardy dragon]

I want to murder indeedee

[torpid moat]

make your greninja timid and give it protect over sludge bomb

[tardy dragon]

Only save and grace for my team once trick room is in play is the bulk and among us

By bulk I mean how a lot of my mons are bulky

[tardy dragon]

Ok

Is there any specific examples where timid out speeding is better then Modest damage increase?

With tail wind and battle bond greninja is not being out sped

[torpid moat]

you can't guarantee either of those happening

[tardy dragon]

Unless they have Tailwind and some set up too ofc

[tardy dragon]

True but tail wind is likely

I have pel and tor

[torpid moat]

a specific one you really want to outspeed is ogerpon

[ruby patio]

There we go:
https://pokepast.es/0d6d53e9aa7acf9c

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @strange sable, @night edge, @earnest junco, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @tardy ember, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[torpid moat]

who will otherwise one shot gren in neutral speed conditions

[tardy dragon]

Ok

[tardy dragon]

What is this for?

[torpid moat]

pings people to respond

[ruby patio]

That's what I'm wondering too

[peak crypt]

every time somebody posts a pokepaste link we get pinged

[ruby patio]

Oh okay, lol

[peak crypt]

so that we can respond to it

[torpid moat]

yeah as I said, you definitely need additional trick room setters

you can try sinistcha over the amoonguss at least

[ruby patio]

Ah, so that's why you want PokePaste links instead of screenshots of our teams

[torpid moat]

partly, also your formatting was awful and in 3 parts

[tardy dragon]

So what do I do to murder indeedee?

Before trick room

[ruby patio]

Sinistcha would be better than Amoongus in TR Teams?

[torpid moat]

sinistcha itself learns trick room while still handling some redirection duty

and healing

it has better role compression

[ruby patio]

Ah, so basically Sinistcha is a backup TR setter as well in case Diancie or another TR setter goes down?

[torpid moat]

yes, hard trick room needs 2-3 setters

the next thing I was gonna say is you may also want porygon2 or indeedee over gambit or glastrier

in addition to sinistcha

there's a little tension with indeedee because it blocks kingambit's priority, but blocking opposing fake out is also very important for tr

[ruby patio]

So I should have Indeedee over Kingambit then?

[torpid moat]

or any of the other options I listed, but yes that's a good one

you should also give glast clear amulet if you keep it

and remove the speed from iron hands

and remove the speed from glast

[ruby patio]

That could work

[tardy dragon]

Hey what do I do to kill sash indeedee most effectively

[torpid moat]

you realistically cannot against a properly made team

besides maybe gren lead

[tardy dragon]

So I must play trick room? 😭

Or maybe I could put trick room on my team to undo it?

[torpid moat]

you must play under trick room, damaging the indeedee/other setters so they can't set again

playing against tr is a learned skill

[tardy dragon]

I shall among us

Them

[torpid moat]

waterpon over amoong would be another way to kill indeedee, or you can spore non goggles/grass tera indeedee

[ruby patio]

Should the 252 EVs in Spd on Glastrier go to Atk or Def?

[torpid moat]

attack

[ruby patio]

So I swap the 16 Atk EVs on Glastrier with Def or SpD instead then?

[tardy dragon]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2275053314

First match with the new team tweaks

Sad that greninja failed to do much. I expected em to outspeed Liligant thanks to tailwind

I could have ice tera and maybe lived that

[torpid moat]

it doesn't particularly matter, spdef then

[ruby patio]

Ah, alright then

And should Indeedee also have Trick Room, or Heal Pulse?

[tardy dragon]

Anyone got thoughts on this replay and advice to give or anything?

[torpid moat]

trick room/psychic/follow me/protect with sitrus

[ruby patio]

Okay then

[tardy dragon]

What evs?

[cosmic pasture]

252 hp 252+ def 4 spd

Maybe thats suboptimal but it works

[tardy dragon]

Ok I did calcs

Oh

252 def

I don't think I calculated that

Hold on

[tardy dragon]

I feel like Iron Valiant might be better then Iron Hands.

On my team.

[tardy dragon]

I'm having arch issues

Because Stam plus defense bulk

A special fighting type would be better prlly I figured

[tardy dragon]

Oof I understand why Iron was suggested now

That base hp is really high

Oh and fake out

[cosmic pasture]

Val is duu for a reason

If u want to talk about the format more id suggest going to doucord

https://discord.gg/pQGXfnzS

[tardy dragon]

Thanks for the inv

My showdown account password didn't work

I think smogon account and showdown accounts might be separate idk

And apparently I need a account for 2 days

Wtf are these questions 😭

This ain't a tinder profile this is a pokemon profile

It's optional it seems and hopefully it really is that way.

[torpid moat]

do you not have a smogon account?

I thought you needed one for this server too

[peak crypt]

Most of the smaller servers require you to have a Smogon account and use it for verification because it makes it easier to keep problem users out across servers

Some people are uh… stubborn at best and actively malicious at worst

[tardy dragon]

I'll just have to wait a few days I guess

I'm having arch issues still

And raging bolt

Stupid thunderclap priority

@peak crypt yo do yk of any mons that can protect for the other teammate?

Maybe I could put ally swap on my team somehow

Or something

[peak crypt]

The moves you’re looking for are Follow Me and Rage Powder

There are no moves that are literally “Protect but for your ally”

Follow Me and Rage Powder have higher priority than Thunderclap and Sucker Punch too, so those moves will fail into Follow Me

[tardy dragon]

Rage powder works for a bit

Amoongus sadly can't target himself with the Heal move

So if he dies then that's that

[peak crypt]

But Amoonguss can switch out and heal with Regenerator

Remember that you don’t need any of your Pokémon at full health to win a game—as long as one of them is at 1 HP when your opponent’s last Pokémon faints, you still win

Knowing how much damage your Pokémon can take without falling over will allow you to play more aggressively and rely a little less on spamming Rage Powder or Follow Me

[tardy dragon]

I'm fighting a person with a hisuian decidueye arch pelipper raging bolt tandemouse and ursaluna team

And I went from barely winning to losing 3 times in a row

I forgot to save replay

And forgot what happened

I got brain fog and messy memory sadly

[peak crypt]

These things will stick a little better with repetition

Once you’ve seen your Archaludon take hits a lot you’ll start to remember “okay I know I can take this hit and I know I can’t take that hit”

[tardy dragon]

My arch is getting one shot usually and doesn't have enough time to get the defense needed to kill theirs

Mine used to be slower but I have developed a new ev formula that's quite simple

So I outspeed theirs now

Simply all my mons that have 0 speed now have 6 speed

Not much points but enough to beat 4 speed ev doppelgangers

[tardy dragon]

Ok

Also they have safety goggles

OH

That's why

I remember now

They have several safety goggles mons on their team now

I gotta replace among us when fighting em

I think clefairy prlly

Clefairy (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Friend Guard
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk

• Follow Me
• Endeavor
• Endure
• Heal Pulse

This is the clefairy I made

[peak crypt]

EVs only add actual stats in multiples of 4

So the last two EVs don’t actually make any difference

[peak crypt]

You’d be much better off with Wellspring Ogerpon than with Clefairy; Clefairy is mostly suited to supporting dedicated setup sweepers like Gholdengo and generally doesn’t provide enough to a team without such Pokémon

But I think Amoonguss is still a better choice than either of those—the combination of better bulk, a better Trick Room matchup, the Grass/Poison typing working well alongside Archaludon, and the threat of Spore make it better than any Follow Me user on this team comp

If you’re worried about this specific team beating you, there are a couple ways to adjust

[tardy dragon]

I thought it was 2

[peak crypt]

Option 1 is accept that they have a good matchup against you and move on—no team can have a good matchup into everything at any level of play

[tardy dragon]

But specifically for fighting this person with several safety goggles

[peak crypt]

Option 2 is to just play way more aggressively: Tornadus becomes your pivotal support piece by repeatedly providing Tailwind for your attackers. Instead of relying on Amoonguss to do the heavy lifting in keeping your team alive, just go first and blow them up before they can blow you up

[tardy dragon]

Arc and raging bolt are massive threats though and will kill torn if I tailwind

And I have nothing to one shot arc or raging safely

[peak crypt]

Then Tera your Tornadus

[tardy dragon]

Ok

[peak crypt]

Tera isn’t something you dedicate to exactly one Pokemon every game

It’s a tool at your disposal for the whole team

If making sure your Tornadus doesn’t die to Raging Bolt is the key to winning a game, then you Tera the Tornadus

If it’s more important that you stop them from just casually clicking turn 1 Beat Up on their Archaludon, then perhaps it’s better to Tera your Arch to resist that Body Press

Or even leading Torn Pelipper and just going for a big Weather Ball on the Maushold

You can also disrupt them with Iron Hands

[tardy dragon]

They don't got beat up

It's a flying Tera too

Electro Shot Protect body press and I'm pretty sure earth quake

Idk about that last 1 tho

[peak crypt]

So your Archaludon hits it super effective with Electro Shot

[tardy dragon]

If they Tera

I forget about Tera a lot

[peak crypt]

You can look for opportunities to switch your Archaludon in on the Maushold’s Pop Bomb and get to +6 Defense yourself

You could even swap to Rocky Helmet Amoonguss and watch the Maushold die to Rocky Helmet

And if it isn’t using Pop Bomb either, you can take advantage of that and just pressure it with two attackers at once

What I mean to say is you have options

No option is 100% safe because that’s just not how Pokémon works, but you’re never out of the game on turn 0

[tardy dragon]

I am having massive issues with battle bond not letting me swap out

So once the safety goggles mons appear

It's kind of gg if I can't one shot

I lose greninja and there goes a great sweeper

I have Protect on em but if your ally is among us then stalling rlly doesn't cut it

Especially when they have Protect too

And can block a spore

I'll have to spend more time thinking each turn about everything I guess

Like teras swap ins etc

I have been just spending a few seconds then going back to what I was doing

So I play off of instinct most the time

[torpid moat]

this is the advantage of ogerpon-wellspring over amoong, grass types/goggles cannot ignore follow me

the other advantages are that waterpon has offensive presence, and that it heals from surf with water absorb

[tardy dragon]

I think I benefit from a constant way to defend teammates that doesn't require guessing games and let's me attack more

Why specifically wellspring?

Why not any of the other ones

I got water types already

Quite a few

[torpid moat]

waterpon traditionally takes the place of your greninja on rain

but because you're insisting on running surf gren, waterpon is the only one that you can surf next to with water absorb

and waterpon is still better because it gets the damage boost from rain

[tardy dragon]

Ohhh

This makes surf rlly strong

Healing my teammate and hurting enemies

Should I Tera water ice or poison gren and should I run ice beam or sludge wave?

Water could work well for pure power and with Follow Me ogerpon out to heal from surf too

I just don't know how well water is offensively in this meta game

Or rather if the pure power and benefits are worth the less offensive type

[torpid moat]

it's not particularly good because rilla and waterpon wall it

[tardy dragon]

So ice Tera or poison?

[torpid moat]

I'm gonna suggest ice mainly because gren doesn't have access to sludge bomb, only sludge wave

[tardy dragon]

Alright

[torpid moat]

sludge wave hits allies and deals reduced damage due to being a spread move

[tardy dragon]

I have been running ice recently

I feel with this though earthquake might be better or some other move over ice punch

[torpid moat]

no, ice punch is still better

otherwise hands cannot touch landorus-i

[tardy dragon]

Why can't greninja or arc or oger or tor fight em instead

The best out of those to fight em being greninja and oger ofc

[torpid moat]

the main reason is that earthquake is awful on hands

I've mentioned spread moves dealing reduced damage, do you understand the mechanic of that?

earthquake is also weakened by grassy terrain

you also want ice punch for hitting amoonguss and rillaboom

and dragonite

it's just that landorus is the most pressing concern

the only other reasonable choice for av hands here would be volt switch

maybe heavy slam for alolatales/diancie specifically

[tardy dragon]

Alright

I wish I could fit a good focus Blast or Aura Sphere on the team

Prlly Aura Sphere

[cosmic pasture]

You could run aura sphere over bp on arch

[tardy dragon]

Maybe

Didn't even know he learns that

That could work though

[cosmic pasture]

Probably not u might like tera fighting tera blast greninja

[tardy dragon]

I'm already running Tera ice ice Beam gren

So idk if the 10 less BP fighting type Tera Blast is worth it and if fighting is better offensively

Overall

[tardy dragon]

How do I get good at making my own teams?

[tardy dragon]

I'm putting everything on the gen 10 greninja buff

Greninja mega evo

[wide dragon]

Watch this video, the basic principles works for DOU as well

https://youtu.be/IdOrvB15zr4?si=XBCPnpKbRr0nOCj1

[peak crypt]

I don't really love using pinkacross for DOU but it's an okay start

the most important thing is really just experience and time

you're not going to be good at building overnight

knowing what makes a good Pokemon, move, or strategy; knowing what threats you need to cover; knowing how to take successful ideas and put your own spin on them

all of this stuff gets refined by experience

as long as you keep watching the things that do well too - don't dig yourself into a hole where you convince yourself the only good strategy is psyspam

[coarse abyss]

https://pokepast.es/781f6d50e2ee0d5d tyranitar sand team gen 6

[torpid moat]

You really shouldn't run so many rock/ground/steels
This is a common pitfall, only rocks get the 1.5x spdef, the sand chip damage is almost entirely irrelevant
A "sand team" should be ttar + exca and nothing else that cares about sand

having ttar exca already gives you a lot of weaknesses that you need to counter with the rest of your team slots, like lando t, conkeldurr, and amoonguss

you definitely need levitators of some kind to help with lando, especially scarf eq

so that means mons like thundurus, latios, volcanion

here's a mega mence sand, which is a different build, but see how it's focused on having strong matchups instead of direct sand synergy

https://pokepast.es/faba5ead7e0df1d2

though to be fair this is also running multiple goggles, but it's doing that on mons that want goggles anyways to better answer amoonguss

[coarse abyss]

I see

[tardy dragon]

I'm considering a 2nd follow me user on my team

Maybe even a 3rd

I want Follow Me tanks

If ogerpon dies I lose follow me support

Or if I have amoongus instead then when they die

[tardy dragon]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2277304861

Pretty sure he faked inactivity bc he didn't want to forfiet directly

[peak crypt]

a lot of people will just tab out of their current battle and start a new one when they think they’ve lost

there’s nothing really to be done about it so don’t get worked up over it

[tardy dragon]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2277309021

I ain't worked up that much man

[tardy dragon]

I feel I could have played better in this battle

So I would like advice

@peak crypt

Gtg

[peak crypt]

I’m at work pretty much all day anyway and can’t be of much help

[tardy dragon]

Ok

If anyone else can please do so

https://pokepast.es/277a45de539dab28

[halcyon panther]

New [Gen 9] Doubles OU RMT @torpid moat, @remote edge, @brittle spade, @dire flint, @rose juniper, @tight spire, @peak crypt, @scenic hamlet. I won't notify you again for at least 6 hours.

[tardy dragon]

I want advice relating to this fight and if any of my other replays show any issues in the way I play please do tell but mainly this replay

and

I wanna add another follow me to the team I think

or maybe amoongus

idk

[torpid moat]

I'll check this out, but I'm gonna go over your team first because your alterations show some misunderstandings

[tardy dragon]

Alright sounds good!

[torpid moat]

so first off, unless you have a specific reason otherwise, you should invest in hp first before ever touching defenses

so waterpon would be objectively better off with all the def/spdef put in hp instead

however, iron hands is one of those special cases where you want to ev it differently

hands has very high hp and def stat, and a very low spdef stat

evs are more impactful on lower base stats, which is why hands usually runs 252 spdef

but hands' def stat is already high, it's really inefficient to run max def as well

that's why standard hands is 252 atk 252 spdef

does that make sense so far?

[tardy dragon]

Yes

What about earthquake though?

My hands survived one of those Im pretty sure

I think 252 attack instead of def would change that

[torpid moat]

technically yes, but if you wanted to run a super bulky hands in that way, it would still be more efficient to ev that in hp than def

[tardy dragon]

Ok

Also I understand ice punch now

it is cool

[torpid moat]

but also, your evs have very little further impact on hands's bulk after the 252 spdef

you care much more about maximizing damage

it's the difference between taking like 10% less physical damage and dealing 20% more

[tardy dragon]

What are the most common ou earthquake users?

[torpid moat]

there are no common earthquake users

earthquake is awful

[tardy dragon]

I am wondering if it would be optimal to ev enough hp to survive most common moves once

and then pour the rest into attack

[torpid moat]

because it hits allies, gets spread reduction(are you aware of this mechanic?), and is halved by grassy terrain

[tardy dragon]

I guess you do kind of have to build the team around it thus making it way worse

[tardy dragon]

Yeah

because building a team around a mon is pretty usual but around a specific move is a bit unusual

[torpid moat]

the common physical ground moves are horsepower and tantrum

it's never really worth using eq

as for calcing to live hits, yes that is a common methodology

[tardy dragon]

So what are some iron hands threats I could ev enough hp to survive hits from?

[torpid moat]

it's just that people have already done the cost/benefit check for hands

and figured out that attack is better anyways

hands will live pretty much any common physical attack

[tardy dragon]

Wouldnt keeping fake out pressure for later be better though?

especially for my frail mons

with 4x weaknesses

that can die rlly fast without support

[torpid moat]

it takes too many evs to further increase hands's physical bulk

it's not worth it

[tardy dragon]

Alright

[torpid moat]

like I said, it is naturally bulky, and evs for phys bulk are very inefficient

and the other thing, just make your evs multiples of 4 and use 508 of em

the 510 is pointless and just makes your evs confusing

252 252 4 or 248 8 252 are all easily parsed, putting the 250 in just obscures it

for other stuff, I'd say you want damp rock peli now that you have so much things dependent on rain

[tardy dragon]

Alright

Damp rock is not used often though is it?

[torpid moat]

it's not as common as eject no

but greninja isn't exactly common either

your team would be a lot stronger with lando i instead of gren

I'd also try giving your peli u turn and wide guard over protect and helping hand

[tardy dragon]

Is there a way I can build the team to benifit from greninja a bit more?

[torpid moat]

no, greninja provides no support or utility, it's just an attacker

a "stronger" greninja team could potentially be a non rain offense that replaced waterpon for greninja

and then you're not actually relying on gren for anything, it just becomes a slightly subpar attacker

have you seen this sample team before? https://pokepast.es/5d7770488bef1345

gren actually forces you away from a semiroom build that gets to take advantage of sinistcha + arch

while avoiding the awkwardness of torn + peli

as a side note, you should really replace swords dance on waterpon with horn leech

waterpon can't run sd and fm at the same time, they're completely opposite purposes

in the game itself, you clicked swords dance, way way too many times

and you seemed to not know how clodsire worked at all

a standard sd waterpon would have been able to horn leech the clod instead

but since you're using it for the follow me role, swords dance makes it not really perform either of them

you also clicked close combat on the clodsire

was that due to not recognizing the mon, misunderstanding type matchups, or a wild prediction?

and on the following turn waterpon should be killing armor instead of sding again

and same for the arch/gren turns

also in that game, your waterpon outsped an adamant gren, the exact reason why you want your gren to be timid

good so far @tardy dragon ?

[tardy dragon]

Im back

sorry about that

[tardy dragon]

I forgot and found out after using the water move

[tardy dragon]

expecting a swap in Im pretty sure

I think I was expecting a arch swap in

Also without sd I dont think I would have killed that electross

but with horn leech I might have killed it though idk

[torpid moat]

I mean afterwards, you sded again to +4

instead of just killing armor

but that's just an isolated case, I'm basically saying that you're misusing your follow me user

which is why you keep wanting to add an additional one

[tardy dragon]

I figured I could survive any hit from em and plus 4 attack would secure me the game

making sure the water hammer move (forgot its name) would one shot

[torpid moat]

ivy cudgel should already one shot

your opp is using weak mons

[tardy dragon]

ok

[torpid moat]

also, you seemed to misuse protect here

so this is a little more abstract, but the idea is that protect does no damage

if your opponent isn't targeting you or your mon isn't threatened , it's a complete waste of a turn

[tardy dragon]

yeah

I had a few bad protect reads and overall played safer instead of optimally

[torpid moat]

so the idea is that a successful protect either gives you a favorable trade, or it advances you to a better future position

[tardy dragon]

yeah

[torpid moat]

so it's not about reading so much as it is about understanding what's in front of you

and whether even in the case where an opp attacks into your protect, whether you will gain any advantage at all

so for example in the sequence from turns 2-4, you didn't gain any real advantage from the protect, tailwind, and switching

because you were outspeeding all their stuff anyways

[tardy dragon]

I gained benifit from not taking damage from thunderbolt and earthquake I feel like

even if resisted

its chip damage that can be avoided

and bc Im pretty sure electric resists water

[torpid moat]

so that's the part that where there's a misunderstanding

[tardy dragon]

and clodsire has water absorb

[torpid moat]

electric doesn't resist water

[tardy dragon]

ok

[torpid moat]

you need to have your type chart 100% down or you're literally just guessing

but also I meant

right now you're talking about waterpon protecting and blocking a thunderbolt right

that's an even trade, not an advantage gained

there needs to be an upside, something gained from protecting, or at least removing some option that the opponent had in a previous turn

[tardy dragon]

Well what is the minimum requirement for something to be gained from protect?

[torpid moat]

it's for your partner slot to be making progress

or reaching a better position

which is the opposite of what was happening in your game, because you switched in 2 flying types into the electric as your protected

if you were afraid of cudgel not killing eel (it does, especially if you get rain too), then you should spend your protect turn damaging eel with hands

[tardy dragon]

I determined that torn and pelipper were pretty expendable and that I should get my use out of them early Im pretty sure

[torpid moat]

so that cudgel becomes a kill and you never take the tbolt in the first place

[tardy dragon]

I say pretty sure bc I played this match hours ago

[torpid moat]

ok so expendable doesn't mean literally worthless right

you threw away both for basically nothing

[tardy dragon]

I think the play to do would have been swap pelipper in and water bonk electross

[torpid moat]

if something is expendable, you want to sacrifice them in exchange for something

[tardy dragon]

then Im just taking a earthquake and lose no mons

[tardy dragon]

true

[tardy dragon]

wyt?

pelipper wouldnt have taken any damage

[torpid moat]

yes, but apparently you didn't know that

I'm saying assuming that doesn't kill, the other play you could have done at the time with the knowledge you had, was to hit the eel with hands

[tardy dragon]

hand could kill?