they don't care about the false positives
#avatar-optimization
minor wren
minor wren
they care what their friends think or want
heady smelt
Just do hidden meshes
minor wren
the general userbase? nope, just noise
heady smelt
I mean... from personal experience, I can tell the avatar creator communities are turning into erp groups
😔
Now that's unoptimized
Look at all those dy bone colliders
minor wren
great, now you can disable those if they are over a limit that you can set
heady smelt
Just use them as a separate mesh w hinge joints
Wanna go to a private world and see my excessive bine jiggle?
No bone jiggle is excessive when it comes to private worlds
Should I invite tupper to come to a private world and look at my physics?
upbeat mural
Honestly, I want to know HOW they test for performance issues. I'm sure that MANY people would like to know how flawed it is.
heady smelt
Just ask floppiii
Hes the one guy with lightning
Carefull tho
Things gonna go boom
shut sequoia
i mean they've shown the unity profiler before
i rarely see anyone here use that for a basis for anything but worlds
queen hedge
What is the limit number of bones can we put in PC avatars?
heady smelt
there's no limit but you bet you're getting autohidden asap next patch if you use a ton of bones
you only ever need more than 50 or so bones unless you're using dynamic bones anyway
for a humanoid of course
if you have something like 400 bones and have dynamic bones on those and then colliders too, you're the reason this channel exists. you alone will drop people from 90 to 30 fps
queen hedge
Ty
scarlet locust
How much does the amount of your materials affect other players? is there like a fine line where you will actually start to notice it? Also, is it "easy" to mash together materials to not have as many?
graceful vine
Each material = 1 Drawcall
woeful ember
"it depends" there is no linear result
learn to atlas your materials down to each unique shader that is necessary to create a desired effect
graceful vine
There is no fine line, you should be optimising this stuff outright
woeful ember
^
buoyant holly
that's pretty much the point of having texture maps for smoothness and metallic so you can combine different materials together on the same map
supple reef
amber hemlock
Disabled gameobjects are counted for a very simple reason: people were disabling large parts of their avatars and making them always visible via animation to get around polygon limits
At least that’s one reason I can think of
solid smelt
Yeah the only problem with it is that now it will be counting all the small props like guns and such. I would be more on board if they just counted polys of the disabled objects as a lot of people are going to have a ton of meshes and skinned meshes that are disabled but still count
heady smelt
bounding box basically doesn't do anything other than tell other people when you're supposed to be visible
those bounds sizes won't have an impact in the performance rating system in the next patch so that should tell you it doesn't matter (but really it should at large enough sizes...)
personally i like that disabled game objects will count. that means crashers or other spammy shit will be rightfully marked as very poor and can be auto-hidden without hiding an entire trust rank's shaders/lights/particles etc
it's a -bit- silly that having a writing avatar will mean 'poor' on quest though so it'll be autohidden by default
minor wren
crashers? very poor? how?
heady smelt
it would make more sense to hide by component like we were inching towards with the ability to do dynamic bone limitations client side, but this is better than hiding by trust rank
i'd expect 'customizable performance ranks' in the future to extend this
pine flame
there are much better ways to detect what's normally shown on an avatar than a blanket scan all disabled objects. for instance, the avatar scanner could run periodically to get the avatar's current performance
heady smelt
it'd have to scan every frame to catch people causing problems
this system feels more 'honest' even if it's not great
solid smelt
Ranking disabled stuff is just another instance of people going overboard making everything worse in a sense. Its going to be harder to gauge the actual performance of an avatar since it will be counting stuff that's not actually there. Does that guy have 10 skinned meshes because he's poorly optimized or just a lot of disabled props?
heady smelt
you'd figure that out interacting a little bit with em, you keep medium ranking all the way til 8 skinned meshes
minor wren
updating every x seconds would be fine
you don't have to do it per frame
heady smelt
and you can get 16 up through poor
solid smelt
Updating the lists at all seems like a bad idea, we are already using way too many miliseconds to hit 90 half the time, the last thing I want is more processing going on.
I just hope they fix final IK soon so that we can actually move the guns from our back to our hands instead of enabling a second gun in the hands and disabling the back, but that's a whole other problem.
heady smelt
if i deicmated my fingers too far, so now when they curl in the joints are basically missing and they kinda break down, like this:
what's the best way to go about fixing that
visual tinsel
Don't decimate your fingers usually.
heady smelt
camera clipped into my wrist a bit there but you can see on the far right finger it makes like a v, collapsing in the center
visual tinsel
They're the things you probably look at the most.
heady smelt
well, this is for the quest version, and i don't have a quest
i needed to decimate to get some poly headroom but missed that i was breaking the joint areas
i avoided breaking the joints for the knee and elbow areas
i suppose i can split an edge and kinda work from there?
surreal topaz
Yeah public worlds have no optimization enforcements anymore
Other than moderation emails or if you happen to be on vrg lmao
minor wren
don't decimate, dissolve edge loops instead if you can
what to do now with the fingers: revert from an earlier save and start over
heady smelt
At least the other stats are optimized
eh i hardly consider 16 materials optimized but they're certainly not as egregious
Well at least he’s not using dynamic bones or colliders so he’s optimized in my book
heady smelt
Throw your spelling book out 🙂
still perch
throws Bully out
keen wagon
I love the av scores, makes everyone try harder to get a higher outcome
surreal topaz
Not really
heady smelt
Or try harder to get higher numbers
surreal topaz
Yeah lmao
I've seen people stretch their mesh particle polys so far that they end up in the negatives instead (excellent territory lmfao)
heady smelt
It’s why they don’t keep breathalyzers in bars
surreal topaz
Maybe I should do that too
heady smelt
People will compete for higher numbers
heady smelt
I wonder what world has the highest ratio of drunk to sober people
heady smelt
I want to say the pug but not sure
surreal topaz
Nah it's
shut sequoia
Probably room of rain Hangouts and unpublished maps with groups of friendd
surreal topaz
The ducky roulette
If we're going by numbers, it might be void club because that Y Bot Discord always gets fucking hammered there.
shut sequoia
Yeah for publics I'd say void
surreal topaz
If we're going by ratios it's definitely Lag-Free Doofenshmirtz as I don't think I have ever seen a non-drunk person visit that world.
misty knot
20K Limit = "20K isn't enough; no reason we shouldn't have 65K"
70K Limit = "70K isn't enough; no reason we shouldn't have 2 million"
surreal topaz
Well I agree with the first one. Raising the poly limit to 70k was a good move
But it shouldn't be any higher than that
The current poly limit clearly fits neatly into Oculus' estimates on how many tris a scene should have
misty knot
There's always that MMD that's just over whatever the limit is, which means the limit should be raised right? 🙃
surreal topaz
Honestly I rarely see MMD's over 70k
It's usually those damn modern game rips
PS4 game protagonists are like 170k polys
Kratos is insane
minor wren
stuff in the millions of tris on avatars is usually something sculpted by the avatar creator, or an insanely high detail sphere/donut like a ring
surreal topaz
Man, I've seen a 100k poly lollipop. That was fucking insanity.
I remade the same lollipop with 440 tris instead
minor wren
and while it's bad to have those in public worlds, the ability to look at your stuff in vr before decimation and normal mapping is a nice to have
just keep it out of public maps and avatars
pure bridge
also consider that MMDs are made around the idea that they are pre-rendered before being used in a video, whereas a videogame is rendered live
most mmds or kitbashes tend to end up being slightly or way over 70k cuz their model artists dont have to worry about performance when the final product is a screenshot or video using their model 99% of the time
a game is pretty different tho
heady smelt
polycount is whatever, i just wish the same copypaste sameface slut fox girl with 450 bones and 4000 dynamic bone collision checks, particles, ugly shaders with glowing tattoos, etc would just go away forever
those are often uploaded by modified sdk nerds too
i have no idea how anyone finds that base interesting or cool at all
pure bridge
cuz tda base is popular
it was convenient snd easy to edit / add on to
so a lot of people made assets for it
minor wren
thank you for teaching us your objectively better taste
pure bridge
ur prob thinking about either miko base or "kancolle" base
loli fox girl or ship girl
heady smelt
nah it's not miko either... it was the one hannah quinn used
minor wren
"slut fox" is probably a tda edit
heady smelt
not on hand, let me look through some mmd stuff and see if i can spot it
misty knot
"slut fox" starter kit:
☑ Scrolling Emission Tattoos
☑ Breast & Thigh Physics
☑ Finger Trails
☑ Skimpy Outfit
☑ Wings, Horns, and Tail
☑ Collar / Ball Gag / Blindfold gesture
☑ Lewd Faces
☑ Bright Nail Polish
☑ Cloth Physics for Skirt
☑ Lewd Sound Effects
☑ World With Mirror
☑ Complain about lag
coming soon to a Box near you
heady smelt
Cloth physics eww
pure bridge
ahhhhhh. they look like dolls ew
misty knot
They do serve as useful markers of people with nothing interesting to say.
pure bridge
those arms actually look like tubes tho
heady smelt
i'm excited to autohide every single one of those by hiding very poor performance avatars
pure bridge
same
misty knot
with disabled game objects being counted, you'll soon be blocking a lot more than just TDA mirror girls.
heady smelt
i'm not a big fan of screen shaking, loud, particle hell can't-see-my-menu-or-block-this-idiot-whos-doing-it effects either
if you're a serious animation guy you should be able to get within the Poor range
some guy came into a world i was in last night and spawned "yeah about 50 ships and threy're all at least 1 million polys" "when will they go away?" "they won't"
surreal topaz
@minor wren this ain't really about taste, the biggest issue is that these people continuously are allowed to upload their rule breaking avatars and worlds because nothing stops them
I know the one he means, it's the one larens and krogenit use
heady smelt
yes exactly
surreal topaz
Which could easily be prevented if the game actually had a bot checking avatar optimization in public worlds, but sadly that is too much to ask for.
heady smelt
Surprised larens is still making the same avatars
i doubt they are
prolly been up for over a year
Actually I’m not surprised at all
minor wren
nah, it sounded more of a "my taste is better, look at these disgusting avatars" kind of rant aimed at tda based avatars with glowy tattoos and kemono ears
I hear that a lot lately
surreal topaz
I'm not really one to criticize taste, but I know what he means
It's just another fad
The glowing tattoos in particular
And in some cases they're applied in the most unoptimized way possible, which is duplicating the body's polys and just slapping the tattoo texture on there and putting cutout on the rest
Beforehand we had all the wolf boys (which I still stick with), and before that we had kanna's and mikos
¯_(ツ)_/¯
minor wren
you can have that style staying under the old public world limits (rip) and get the same hate
surreal topaz
Almost any model will get some sort of hate
minor wren
next will be boothcats
surreal topaz
Some of my more recent models make some people wary that I might be a crasher
Even though I don't have any obnoxious shader stuff going on
As for the booth stuff, that's indeed a new trend. I gotta say that people who spend money on premade booth models are better off saving that money for commissions instead.
heady smelt
What’s your model look like that to have it deemed as a crasher lul
minor wren
still better than paying avatar world makers for uploads
surreal topaz
It's that one model made by Filn that was favored by crashers for a bit (and still is on occasion) @heady smelt
EN
Also happens to be the one that subcom ripped off several times lol
First literally and then metaphorically
heady smelt
Eww that model gives me subcom flashbacks
surreal topaz
Yeah
This is the model that subcom first stole, then ended up 1:1 remaking after they got taken down several times
They also tried selling it lol
Unfortunately, that incident didn't really make the MMD community view VRChat in a favorable way
heady smelt
Has it ever really
surreal topaz
But anyway, this model is associated with "crashers" so I get my avatar hidden sometimes as a precaution. It happens
Even if I don't have any rimlights, weird shaders, or tacky backpacks/weapons
People have different tastes and some people can be dicks about it
minor wren
"that looks like a crash avatar" is something I hear often about someone else's avatars
surreal topaz
I have to admit, I have told people that on occasion
minor wren
(it's not)
surreal topaz
Because it's true
In the sense that sometimes an avatar does look like one
Even though I trust that it isn't malicious
keen wagon
some girl with a wolf/fox girl tda base came up to me and called MY avatar ugly because "it didn't look like anything I'd seen before" and I was looking at her like, yeah I bet you haven't seen a lot, honestly
surreal topaz
In case anyone knows Jawbones, he often has avatars that look exactly like crashers even though they never are
It happens
heady smelt
Jawbones is one the few avatar creators I actually respect
amber hemlock
I only intend to block VERY poor.
And only until I get something better than a GTX 970
It doesn’t take much to lag me
heady smelt
im on a laptop 1070 and will be blocking very poors for that same reason
misty knot
Pretty sure I'll be going from green (!) Very Poor after the next update when disabled objects are counted because of a single light that's on about 0.1% of the time local-only in a gesture: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/507942319794814986/588349858272903174/unknown.png
sweet mason
Blocking shader really give you your fps back
minor wren
not for me
dynbone limiter at 1000 checks does it for me
that, and disabling custom animations
misty knot
The #1 thing I can do to get frames is to hide name tags.
heady smelt
name tags are down to 1 draw call i think after last patch
yeah just double checked, 1 realtime light is just gonna drop you to Poor @misty knot
minor wren
(citation needed)
misty knot
that's nice if so. Haven't logged in a lot recently. motivation's kinda sapped at the moment.
heady smelt
https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/avatar-performance-ranking-system useful reminder
some of these numbers are quite hard to exceed for normal use
sweet mason
I use empty object to move stuff around so I dont really have to care about where the origine is. But I often leave it there.
misty knot
Hmm, I thought I've seen someone with one light show up as the super-red in avatar stats. May be misremembering.
heady smelt
even dynamic bone collision checks go up to 256 for poor
sweet mason
Set collider was anoying. But I dont use dyna that much anymore in area that would cause cliping
misty knot
However, that light I linked is short range, lowish angle, heavily culled, no shadows, etc. And is treated the same as a light with a 9999 range, soft shadows, affecting everything that is always on.
heady smelt
instead of using more dynamic bones i started assigning some things to nearby vertex groups to give the illusion that they were moving ontheir own
heady smelt
it's unfortunate that the settings are so 'coarse' but it's better than blocking by trust ranking imo eremite
minor wren
you can already do that tho
heady smelt
yeah, it just doesn't make much sense
misty knot
What'd be neat is if there were some kind of sandbox environment avatars could be loaded into to assign a real performance rank based on actual performance. not adding up the number of things.
a logistics nightmare, but I can dream.
heady smelt
only problem there is that it would depend on other factors but yeah
my question is
can you do 'show avatar' on someone even when they're above your performance rating setting and still see them
(like you can now with safety settings, you can select 'show' 'use safety' and 'hide)
misty knot
I'd assume so, but it doesn't work with the bone limiter so I guess we'll see.
heady smelt
the whole dynamic bone limiter thing was silly. needing to edit a config file? please
sweet mason
The upcoming update allow you to block auto by opty rank. But If you are red because of one thing. Bye bye
minor wren
Those laggy trail renderers must go!
heady smelt
upvoted @misty knot
similar suggestion if you're interested: https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/quest-avatar-limits
sweet mason
If I go down to good because dynamic bone. Why should I limit the other value in excellent like less poly. Thats how it make me feel.
minor wren
So if the only reason an avatar is very poor is the dynamic bone amount, but I use the limiter to disable it, the avatar will be hidden regardless?
misty knot
^ This. I think the current system kinda encourages that mentality. Like, if you have say, a General Grievous avatar with 4 arms and are using Rigidbodies, you're already Very Poor. At that point, why optimize the rest of the stuff; you're already at the worst ranking.
Ironically, you can get around that specific problem by using LimbIK instead of RigidBodies. It's also more accurate because it calculates the update more often. thonking_emoji.png
heady smelt
have to admit i could git 32k polys but i have no reason to go down from 61k because my dynamic bones take me to medium anyway
misty knot
Calculates more often... More CPU? Higher performance ranking. Yes. OK.
minor wren
There should be an sdk component to make multi arm avatars more optimized
Especially fingers
misty knot
I just use the LimbIK from FinalIK and animate the fingers in the gesture overrides.
sweet mason
We need to buy to 99 addon soo yeah
misty knot
gotta catch it on sale. ;p
minor wren
Gesture overrides for fingers will be good once we have left and right hand seperation
sweet mason
Its separete for the fingers at least.
amber hemlock
@misty knot if it really is local only the uploader will say you are bad and the in game will say you are bad but others not local will strip away the light and not see you as very poor
shut sequoia
have to admit i could git 32k polys but i have no reason to go down from 61k because my dynamic bones take me to medium anyway yeah this is why better weighting for the performance system would be nice.
Instead of just hitting bounding box
amber hemlock
Getting medium for dynamic bones and most people have them blocked anyway
If my client strips away dyn bones I think I should rate it as if those dyn bones did not exist since they are not lagging me
surreal topaz
@amber hemlock I agree
The performance system could benefit from adjusting its calculations anyway
Because right now, the main reason why disabled objects count is to prevent people from enabling stuff later on
But if it occasionally re-ran every minute or so that wouldn't be possible
amber hemlock
Yup that’s how another game did it. Client just profiled everything every 3 minutes or so
minor wren
Simply running the scan on the avatar running all it's idle animations would catch most attempts
Sure you could use gestures and inventory system to get around that, but as a baseline it's a good estimate
surreal topaz
Or just re-running it a minute later
heady smelt
No
peak coral
so why is it greyed out
heady smelt
It’s just telling you what can be optimized
peak coral
the Build & Publish button
heady smelt
Does your console have any red errors
peak coral
oh, one
heady smelt
Remove the component is my guess
peak coral
no i clicked on the uh
avatar to do that so no
i cant edit the screen that shows where you name your avatar
heady smelt
unpause it at the top
peak coral
ohh
misty knot
@amber hemlock RE: local objects not counting against ranking
First, all GameObjects and Components are now counted in the Avatar Performance Rank calculation, including disabled GameObjects or Components. For example, if you have many disabled components for use in an animation, you may find that your Avatar Performance Rank will drop.
https://medium.com/@vrchat/avatar-performance-stats-and-rank-blocking-1ae0feddc775
thick thorn
Can someone help me, I'm using Unity to have my custom avatar but the entire model is pink, anything I need to do about that?
Yeah, my model ingame is completely pink, did I do something wrong?
heady smelt
Use a different shader for your materials
Why my shaders pink Haven't heard that one in a while lmao
thick thorn
I'll see what I can do
Any recommendations on shaders, @heady smelt ?
Because I do have the Cubed Shaders
heady smelt
Poiyomi
rapid wagon
marsh trail
Thou be crazy, one poly is too many, zero pollies is the bare minimum, and that's already pushing it
heady smelt
lookin good
sweet mason
Extra thiccc
fading terrace
So I have hair on an avatar, what's the ideal update rate?
still perch
test it out, the lower the better calculation wise, most stuff looks just as fine at 30, sometimes even at 15
fading terrace
Alright, I'll try 15 - 30
heady smelt
it gets capped at 60 even though you can run at 90
which is why dynamic bones always look jumpy if you move fast, it's really ugly
pine flame
I think 30 or 45 would be better than 60
heady smelt
disable "Error Pause" down in the bottom in unity
heady smelt
next to "Clear" "Collapse" "Clear on Play" etc
i get that error on every upload so the only solution was to not pause the upload on errors
dense crow
ok ok thank you
mild osprey
when you have to reoptimise all your avatars in your world because they make a change to count material slots instead of unique materials https://i.imgur.com/Czko884.png
heady smelt
mild osprey
is there a new limit on material slots or is it still counted as the same for avatar world uploads
fathom mason
everytime you think they cant fuck it up even more... well surprise
mild osprey
its becoming really hard for a content creator to keep up when there's huge changes to the performance system like this. imagine a change where you have to update 20-50 avatars because the metrics change from unique material's to slots when the materials are the same. would probably make a load of people want to stop making content
pallid abyss
@mild osprey There are no more hard and fast rules other than the 70k poly limiy
There are only ranks
mild osprey
thats much better to know
fathom mason
i made a avatar that can transform in a few different versions of itself... it counts 164 matierial slots. even tho there are never more active at once than are needed for medium
pallid abyss
Thats why they are letting the user block the poor models
mild osprey
a huge relief i guess. least i aint going to get infractions on my account for unoptimised avatars
pallid abyss
instead of forcing you to make it not poor.
mild osprey
its a shame though that this one update has turned 90% of avatars into very poor perfornance rank though
fathom mason
my way less optimized avaratars are now rated better than my optimized ones because they can do less huehue
pallid abyss
Also on PC no1 is auto blocking poor avatars. that is quest only.
So theres litterally no issue
I mean though you want to optimize best you can tho. its a good thing.
mild osprey
you would be surprised when you are in a world with a few people and your medium rank avatar thats now very poor gets blocked by half the room because they are looking for users that lag everyone.
becomes a bit of a witch hunt sometimes
pallid abyss
At any rate this isn't new information
and if players choose to block, they are allowed to do so.
I don't understand why it;'s hard o.o
mild osprey
technically its not performance related though because they are unique materials lol but i guess we will go with it
pallid abyss
It's litterally automatically done for you
unless you mean dynamic bones. which idk at this point you may not even wanna use.
mild osprey
unless the material slots actually count towards poor performance but from what i know once they are gpu instanced they only use the amount of unique materials not 54 materials vs 10
pallid abyss
Atlas your model then?
or combine similiar materials, thats also automated now.
one click. done
I spent over 50 hours optimizing my models and deleted over 100 models from my world because the optimization thing to start.
mild osprey
is combine similar materials automated in unity? atlassing causeing issues with the same material for me or has done in the past. where you just have a large atlass with duplicated materials. and when its scaled up it becomes a lot worse quality
pallid abyss
and that was months ago when it was manditory
its not unity, its blender.
its in the "fix" button
combine same material 1st then atlas
mild osprey
yeah thats never worked properly for me then lol
pallid abyss
Manually do it?
I do it manually.
5 shirt mats. tab, select x5. click mat 1, to apply it to it.
mild osprey
doing it manually gives me the same issue where i atlass it i get a 4k texture with 5 4k textures inside it. which ruins quality
surreal topaz
It's even harder for content creators to keep up when they use certain features like IK solvers or walk animations, only for them to break
Manual atlasing is fine
mild osprey
maybe my version is out of date. but i have never seen it merge duplicated material slots properly
pallid abyss
For materials, they said all materials not unique materials in the optimization sheet
and only the old ranking system said unique
So..... :/
Not reading that
mild osprey
not to mention how the performance system counts the root bone for dymanic bone scripts which it shouldnt. always counts 1 extra bone for each dynamic bone script i have. not to mention the incorrect dynamic bone transforms count. always seems to add an extra quarter on top or so. seems like the numbers are a bit bugged. i have an avatar that has 3 skinned mesh renderes and 1 mesh renderer and its upped the skinned mesh renderers to 14 and the mesh renderers are now on 10 :/ it would be nice if the sdk actually told you a breakdown of where its getting the numbers from
strong vigil
Someone can help me in undoing my avatar, like when I put the avatar on humanoide, the tail stays ahead looking like ..... cough, well, glue can help to make the trunk of his tail and foot stay in shape normal
sudden jewel
@mild osprey The root bone is not counted. Transform count comes directly from the Dynamic Bone script and gives the number of particles in the particle simulation-- there's really no more accurate/precise method by which to do it.
heady smelt
some wording suggestion for the notes
"Very Poor avatars will never show on Quest" but it also says "You can bypass this for individual users by using Show Avatar"
sudden jewel
As far as mesh counts go, dunno about that. Would have to see the avatar myself. Easy way to see it is type t:SkinnedMeshRenderer and t:MeshRenderer in your editor
heady smelt
may want to clarify that there's no override for quest users to see very poor avatars
sudden jewel
it is clarified as its own bullet point
surreal topaz
The root bone is also a "particle" in the simulation
Hence why it gets a white sphere gizmo when you increase the radius
Not sure if it's counted in the "particles" property
sudden jewel
Oh right I got implementations mixed up-- either way, the count as it is in-app (and in the newest SDK) is as precise/accurate as it can possibly be, as we're reading out the info from the DB script itself
heady smelt
was there any significant but not yet used functionality in this unity upgrade
surreal topaz
If it counts the root bone for collisions then it's not entirely accurate, as the root bone doesn't respond to collisions. This gives inconsistent results depending on how many different bone chains you have (i.e. having several chains is penalized extra heavily)
sudden jewel
This is the wrong channel, nab
surreal topaz
The root bone particle is actually skipped in calculations too if I'm reading this code right
heady smelt
you're right i'll post it in a ded channel without anyone important to see it my dude
mild osprey
cheers @sudden jewel for the information ill try typing those to see. is there a list of these commands somewhere cause thats new to me
minor wren
(that's not how conversations work btw)
surreal topaz
The transform count has been made more accurate since they now also made the ranks read out the "particles"
Not just the limiter
But that was a while back I think
sudden jewel
Its in the heirarchy search bar documentation for Unity
we don't document Unity's basic functionality (thank god)
mild osprey
yeah lucky you dont have to
surreal topaz
Anyway from what I can see, the root bone in dynamic bone is "skipped" for all intents and purposes. This includes for collisions.
The "Dynamic bone transforms" stat should actually be Total transforms - Component count. Right now an unfair "advantage" is given to setups that have n dynamic bones in the same chain.
As opposed to having the same bones in different chains
The latter is more optimized in terms of raw transforms that are iterated over
But maybe the logic is that every component has some update logic of its own, so whatever.
sudden jewel
would have to take a much closer peek, but you can minimize that issue (if it exists) by re-parenting your chains
AFAIK each component runs its own set of routines, so it is a non-zero cost to have 8 different chains vs one re-parented group of 8 chains
fathom mason
this whole system shouldnt even be called performance ranking anymore. since it doesnt shows the actual performance what is currently shown on the avatar. it just counts everything that isnt even active and even counts some things wrong. very missleading
graceful vine
Potential performance ranking system* ?
sudden jewel
There is no (current) way to check the stats performantly in real-time (or even intermittently), so to avoid people abusing animations/other tricks to raise their rank, we have to count all disabled objects.
mild osprey
i feel bad for a few people cause they do skin swaps. so they have a toggle emote that switchs them from angel to demon but now it counts it all against their performance when only one of the meshs is rendered at one time but its probably next to impossible to tell the difference between things that are enabled on an animator at runtime and one that is toggled
surreal topaz
It seems dynamic bone does indeed run some code before it actually starts getting to the transforms themselves, but I feel that should be covered by the "dynamic bone" ranking itself (the component count ranking, not the transforms ranking)
fathom mason
that doesnt stop them from abusing
fathom mason
people who are doing this stuff to annoy others, will do it anyways
heady smelt
how do my 2 components on my 2 breasticles end up in 6 transforms
surreal topaz
You mentioned there were issues with re-checking performance intermittently, do you know what kind of issues those were? I know that getting components is expensive, but you could cache the obtained components in a list after load
sudden jewel
2 components with 3 transforms within them as total
fathom mason
its only punishing for people who just want to be creative and work hard on still having it optimized
heady smelt
but each has 2 transforms
sudden jewel
@surreal topaz Nope, I don't know the details-- just that people smarter than me told me "this is the best way we can do it right now"
root is likely counted, then
heady smelt
meanwhile it's skipping my colliders, maybe a mis-assignment
because i do have 2 colliders
mild osprey
on mine its telling me i have 4 colliders when i have 2 lol
graceful vine
Its not like people cant just keep uploading the same avatar, and ignore the ranking system.
surreal topaz
From what I can tell the SDK might not show colliders properly. If I had to guess, VRChat is on an "older" dynamic bone version that doesn't have the ColliderBase class nor the plane collider
So if your dynamic bone is up to date from the asset store it will show 0 colliders
graceful vine
The update doesnt change anything except a little icon above the name (that people already ignore)
sudden jewel
BlueASIS' point is also correct-- by default, the minimum rank is disabled. If someone chooses to block imperformant avatars, its like someone turning off shadows or post-processing effects in Overwatch or something. You aren't really "allowed" to force someone to run certain performance settings, it is their choice
heady smelt
i never had the sdk showing any stats besides poylgon, materials, bones anyway, so at least i can see something now
sudden jewel
What's your avatar ID? I can check it by hand and ensure the count is correct. @mild osprey
mild osprey
ill grab it when i get chance just popping out for lunch
fathom mason
you can even report people for bad avatar performance. that is really calming when i know that the counting system is absolute bonkers
mild osprey
would proabably be worth removing that option now that this ranking system is in
sudden jewel
Nah, we still want people to report stuff that's obnoxiously bad
heady smelt
it's the only relevant option to use when someone's using a modified sdk
fathom mason
how would you know? its not accurate
heady smelt
actually yeah it's possible to have avatars over 70k now that got grandfathered in with legit SDKs
sudden jewel
If someone has 15,000 dynamic bone transforms, I want someone to report them
heady smelt
what about 2000
graceful vine
It clearly is accurate if its now counting everything
sudden jewel
2000 is pretty obnoxious and would likely be set to private (if public)
fathom mason
i have a avatar with multiple bodyswaps/animators/animations/effects etc. that goes never over medium rank with whats currently active. but the new system will show me as one of the most horrible avatar that ever existed
heady smelt
i saw someone with more dynamic bone transforms than they had bones earlier
toxic olive
so! question! the new vr chat sdk says i'm using 11 material slots, but i'm using 5 as far as I can tell. how come? O:
heady smelt
additional objects like props hobb?
sudden jewel
Material slots are the sum total number of slots available on all meshes on your avatar
you must reduce material slots, not unique materials
toxic olive
the only mesh in the project is the body for the avatar
surreal topaz
So far the ingame report system still seems as useless as ever, both for avatars and worlds though.
Moderation emails are far more effective
sudden jewel
yes
graceful vine
I assume both are useful, the thing with in game report is the lack of feedback
sudden jewel
speaking as someone who digs through avatar/world reports fairly often, they are not useless-- they just have no feedback
graceful vine
So youll never know if your report got followed up
sudden jewel
exactly
toxic olive
and i just realized that nekkid body might look bad, it's an animal so it's okay xD
heady smelt
yeah i unironically reported like a dozen worlds with 10+ terrible high dynamic bone collison count, terrigle polygon count avatars, but none got taken down 😦
graceful vine
Twitter has a system to let you know when your reports are acted upon, could be nice to implement a system similar to that
graceful vine
Oh ya oh ya
heady smelt
i just hope that this system doesn't slow down the moderation efforts with the excuse that it can be hidden automatically
graceful vine
i think just letting people know that the system does work and you saying that you personally go through them is convincing enough for now 😉
sudden jewel
several people go through them, i'm just one of them
i kinda do it as a space-filler
sudden jewel
thank you for sending them 😄
graceful vine
i just want the bad guys to leave, like everyone else
minor wren
how should we report worlds for non vr friendly shaders
performance?
graceful vine
like every other video game - shoot the baddies except with reports
heady smelt
there will be some collateral damage but i hope this encourages them to go
surreal topaz
Actually speaking of which, ages ago I reported a world through email for trying to circumvent the public perf guidelines by putting their stuff in portals. They uploaded empty worlds in these portals and when their world exited labs, they would replace these with laggy avatar worlds again. The world was never taken down.
I just looked and the world is still there. There are avatars in there with 1800 collision checks and 30 material slots.
heady smelt
is it the one rokk
surreal topaz
I'm in it right now lol
sudden jewel
@minor wren Probably environment-performance
surreal topaz
minor wren
kk
heady smelt
why havent you friended me rokk
surreal topaz
I didn't?
heady smelt
i'm gonna go say hello to you
surreal topaz
But yeah, if both world and moderation reports are looked at, why is Sci Fi Complex still up?
The guy has had their world taken down several times over this now in the past
But after a certain point it just stopped
30 materials can't be okay
mild osprey
yeah the skinned meshs i have 9 and its counting 14 and for mesh renderers its counting 10 instead of 5. just realised i had a few more than i expected because of a few shaders for connecting rings via shaders i have on the avatar
surreal topaz
There's a portal to another world in here, let's take a look
minor wren
10 colliders per dynamic bone is also going overboard
mild osprey
surreal topaz
Oh lord
Reminder that I reported this world and if I go by Tupper's word, someone personally looked at this world and decided that this is okay.
mild osprey
also 2 dymanic bone coliders and its counting 4
minor wren
maybe body switching/mmd dances?
surreal topaz
So is this misinformation or just poor moderation?
The stats were just as bad before
mild osprey
looks like its counting each collider twice to me
heady smelt
my collider count doubled too
minor wren
idk, just guessing
the tri count is too much, probably multiple copies
surreal topaz
It definitely doesn't seem like world reports are taken seriously if this shit can remain up
mild osprey
from what i was told today by lily they no longer count a load of this towards the worlds avatar performance limit
they only count polygons now from what they said
surreal topaz
Well material slots surely still count
And if polys still count then this one is way over, at 500k
rotund totem
i doubt anyone even looks at reports just wait till the next update
surreal topaz
Well Tupper just said that they look at reports, clearly that either doesn't happen and we're being fed misinformation, or isn't happening well enough.
mild osprey
time to load up canny
minor wren
remember that each trail renderer counts as a material slot too
mild osprey
lol
surreal topaz
Yeah these have 10 trail renderers
heady smelt
if an avatar has 10 trail renderers...
surreal topaz
But he said "2000 would get it set to private" which this world definitely meets lmao
Of course getting set to private means nothing since it's been done before
They'll put it back
Apparently nobody on the team gives even the slightest shit about these people since they have been doing it for half a year
¯_(ツ)_/¯
I sent a mod email about it when it was in labs and that worked (even though they were supposed to have their world uploads suspended)
But when they got out of labs they never responded
Reminder that 37 materials and 1800 collision checks is allowed to be public
All the work people like me and Kareeda put into optimizing their avatars to go below 50 transforms, and ultimately the rules just get revoked anyway.
I appreciate the hostility
You too bb
For what it's worth I think counting disabled objects is an extremely bad idea, just because I was finishing a rant from earlier doesn't mean you immediately have to act like a dick.
1800 dynamic bones is gonna lag people
And public avatars should absolutely adhere to a particular standard
That's not a fringe, that's about 20% of the avatars that I see in public these days.
It's a bit of a weird issue because I think the performance ranks are very unhealthy, while the old public avatar world limits were good.
heady smelt
@sudden jewel quest users saying they can still see very poor avatars
surreal topaz
Well yeah the rank never mattered lol
radiant shadow
Oh i see those all the time, there's one near me with 9.3m poly
surreal topaz
I'm very poor because of a mesh particle that's 5001 polys
sudden jewel
@surreal topaz That is not really what I said, so that isn't really "my word"
heady smelt
both their own and others'
mild osprey
i opened a canny article. seeing as it does seem like the check for colliders is doubling the figure
minor wren
very poor indeed
sudden jewel
Can you link it, please? Did you include an avatar ID?
sudden jewel
Please attach an example avatar ID there, would be very helpful
minor wren
(not complaining, but still don't get the train renderer thing)
surreal topaz
Well from my point of view I reported, say, 10 worlds from ingame that were clearly rule-breaking, and all 10 of them were still up. That's a pretty high failure rate. From my perspective that means the system failed 100% of the time.
mild osprey
ill include the avatar id shortly.
heady smelt
alert alert there's quest avatars that are visible but outside the poor range for quest
aka all quest avatars
surreal topaz
And that's why I suggested moderation emails as those don't slip through as easily, but apparently sci fi complex is proof that an email can be ignored just as easily.
The sheer volume of reports makes ingame reports in almost any game feel useless unless they have people dedicated to sifting through them
If they don't then there's no point
sudden jewel
We get through as many as we can. I know for a fact that world has been removed before, but its likely it just got put up again
surreal topaz
Yeah, I reported it before and it got removed back then
But it keeps getting put back up untouched, sometimes they put it back up with "empty" portals and pedestals (or rather, the worlds where the portals lead to are empty)
And are then later updated to be filled again with unoptimized avatars
surreal topaz
Is that one of your own avatars?
proper blaze
@surreal topaz just a Cube with some Hiddn Objects
surreal topaz
That doesn't surprise me. This is one instance where I would say that they got something right for once.
proper blaze
99:99999% will never be visible ingame
heady smelt
32 bit int max particles
nice avatar bro
yes
your shitty terrible modified SDK avatars are finally gonna be gone
i can't wait. some asshole in your world DDoS'd me for hiding one just the other day
good riddance
imagine litterally putting 32 bit int max particles on an avatar
mint kernel
so now, the complete perfomance statistic is meanigless, becaus the system freaks out with objekts that are hidden, dont cost anything, and are not bindet, so they cannot be startet
heady smelt
and being angry that it's gonna be hidden
surreal topaz
Unfortunately they can do lasting damage to you since IP's are expected to be public info and trust ranks can also be dropped
heady smelt
3 2 b i t m a x i n t p a r t i c l e s
glacial notch
should have thought so I forgot I had a sword on this avatar with those lights
what about the cloth though how much worse is it than dynamic bones?
as you can tell i'm a noob to this
storm basin
now with the new update of the system, the avatars with clones inside themselves to make animations, will have twice polygons, my questions is this will not cause confusion among the people to report the players by modified sdks?
heady smelt
F
solid smelt
Cant really use the performance system to judge avatars since you don't know what's actual there or what's hidden
storm basin
now that counts all the polygons even those that are disabled is an instant block if you have activated the option.
solid smelt
If you use the new blocking system you should just assume you will not see any intricate animations as most of them will go over some limit. The only avatars that aren't effected negatively by this update are the ones with no hidden stuff
vestal steeple
Can anyone explain material slots?
fathom mason
@storm basin not only polys.... everything now gets counted from the clone.... bones, material slots, meshes, etc.
pallid abyss
@vestal steeple Material slots, the term to defentiate between unique materials and materials. Meaning all materials count, even if they are the same. So 5 copies of the same material is 5 now, when before counted as 1.
rugged peak
So...I dunno where I should be saying this, but one of my models is a good 50K-ish polys, but the new sdk is saying its got 99k
I double checked blender, thinking i might have forgotten to decimate something, but that is not the case
And the rest of my models are fine, its just this one specific model :/
Nvm actually -.-
I fixed it
heady smelt
Did they Optimize the removal of Non-Skinned Meshes where they dissappear or something?
lethal surge
fuck the new update
solid bobcat
it even mess my perfectly self optimized avatar up -.-" im with you Lib, screw the update.... that is aweful as hell
heady smelt
fuck the new update.
lethal surge
I spent so many hours working on my avatars
ytring to keep things as optimized as possible by using hand gestures and other tricks
boom
solid bobcat
but what we expect... vr chat devs dont listen to us anymore since half year, they god we are peasants... so they do whatever they want
lethal surge
now they're all blocked by default
vrchat has just lost something of what made it so great
heady smelt
Same I went from "Good" to Very poor on all avatars due to toggleable objects lmao
Lets just sit in front of mirrors and jerk off
solid bobcat
Im much more active again in Second Live than in VR Chat >.<"
lethal surge
they should have let it as it was
solid bobcat
yeah definitly, or better first fix all the things slowly part for part
lethal surge
if someone is "smart" enough to hide their shit with gestures rather than leaving it all as idle 'mode' then surely they care enough about the game to optimize their avatars
still perch
If users wouldn't exploit everything there would not have been a need
solid bobcat
before adding new stupid game breaking features
still perch
And if users cared about optimization without any limitations
still perch
Also, isn't it only default enabled on quest 
solid bobcat
no need? stop being ridicolous, we allways tried to negociate with the devs and we allways get kicked in the backs since a half year
lethal surge
I have a flashlight in one of my avatars, I only use it when exploring really dark maps, it's rarely on
how the fuck does that affect your performance
solid bobcat
if i try to follow the guidelines of the avatar optimation thing from vr chat it is not possible anymore making a avatar that doesnt look like a pile of shit
lethal surge
it was possible by toggling your stuff with hand gestures up to a certain point before this patch
but right now
creativity is dead
lethal surge
vrchat has just lost one of the things it made it so great
still perch
Except that it isn't.
solid bobcat
well your wrojng Paul
heady smelt
clearly
solid bobcat
if we dont follow there are many people who report the user with those model
lethal surge
t. tda sameface with no props that does nothing but stare at a mirror
solid bobcat
and what we get? a timed bann
lethal surge
tell me
what do people do about snail markers now
I made my own optimized snail marker
that's only active when yuo're drawing
boom
solid bobcat
happened to my friends alot what makes public rooms not enjoyable anymore
lethal surge
now it's very poor
heady smelt
What about props? Guns? Anything?
still perch
70k is more than Enogh for 3 whole avatars. So one with a lot of props is no issue
solid bobcat
with heavy decimating on the quality
lethal surge
it's not just props
you clearly haven't made any shit with your avatars so you don't understand
heady smelt
word
still perch
Ofc if you just dump every mmd you find without any work it'll not be good but that is because it isn't good.
20-30k fits nearly any avatar, yes even complex ones. If you know what you are doing at least
solid bobcat
i build my own avatar tbh., just saying im the creator of Axion if u know that name and that avatar was pretty good optimized i rework on that months
cause any update fucked it up over and over
heady smelt
If you think polys are the only thing that make up vrchat than you clearly spend all day long in front of a mirror
solid bobcat
polygons arent the issue Paul
even a 1 mill polygon avatar can run perfect if the creator optimized it right + with dynamic bones etc.
thats an fact
lethal surge
no point in discussing with this guy lol
still perch
One does. Yes... But that isn't the point 
lethal surge
I'm making a canny
solid bobcat
forget it paul, ur like a brick wall right now
reminds me of vr chat devs few months ago, no chance to negociate with them
heady smelt
Just another yes man that sucked up his way all the way to mod
still perch
The reason disabled stuff counts now is because it got heavily exploited to circumvent limits.
And that's in the players
heady smelt
with no clear understanding of avatar optimisation
still perch
Oh ofc. That's why I'm not complaining and have no issue to stick within limits?
Just think about your sentence. @heady smelt
Doesn't make sense.
hasty jewel
So we get the shaft because of malicious creators.
solid bobcat
yep chief
still perch
That's unfortunately common in game development
solid bobcat
others do shit and we game
still perch
It just strikes way harder here
solid bobcat
thats ridicolous paul
and i work with devs
that was a not nessesarry action u guys did
hasty jewel
80 plus avatars in my world and now they're gonna be labeled as crap. hardly seems fair
solid bobcat
well i will stop trying to negociate too
i wonder how long vr chat can survive...
heady smelt
oh it will survive
but it will evolve into a less primitive community than it was before, remembering the good old creative 2017 - mid 2018 days
solid bobcat
2017 best ever...
heady smelt
sure it was laggier but the creativity was just bursting
now we got sleep worlds all over the place
solid bobcat
well im out for now, have some stuff todo
heady smelt
It was an honour creating with you, gentlemen
hasty jewel
goodbye alot of public avatar worlds
solid bobcat
same i go back creating stuff in Second Live
heady smelt
Lol funny thought in head; feel free to steal the idea from me --- So there's this VR Quester that says "Did you do it?" And then VRChat with Thanos Body is like.. "Yes"... and the VR Quester says.. "How much did it cost?" ... VRChat with Thanos is like... "Everything"
Make sure to put the VRChat Logo on Thanos Head and.. Oculus Quest Logo on the Small Girl thing
lethal surge
woeful ember
not the place for feature requests
it also isn't the end of the world incase anyone is wondering
fathom mason
Killing creativity in a game where all is about creativity and being social is one hell of a self destructrive and very not smart move
woeful ember
"killing" would be an exaggeration as it's a limit that is essentially turned off by default
nor does it eliminate the ability to show unoptimized avatars for the sake of "creativity"
hasty jewel
Im sure they are trying to improve overall performance for all users. But i think they should give each user the tools to fine tune what they see. An avatar with effects and animations if only bad when the user is not using them with some kind of regard for others.
woeful ember
i don't agree with counting the hidden objects but it's kinda necessary but they probably need to differentiate skinned polys from prop polys
heady smelt
I like how people talk about creativity and bash Knuckles.. but I'm not a Knuckles anymore.. I'm a Kermit.. and things gone uphill since I became a Kermit; we fight and thrive on the land.
fathom mason
it is killing if you punish everyone for making something that can do a little bit more than just staying around. i spent a shit ton of time in making my more creative avatars still omptimized. like bodyswaps, animations, toggle systems, effects etc. all managed and put together in a way so it doesnt is above medium at any active point. but now it just counts absolutely everything that isnt even active and throws good avatar instantly into very bad. hell even prevents me from uploading with the new sdk because of body swaps. because it counts all the stuff that is only shown when other stuff is disabled and says to many polys... you can report users for having bad optimized avatars, and now it just shows every avatar as absolutely horrible that has a little more functions than being a dull puppet.
when people use the feature to block "bad" avatars you are instantly one of them if you put a bit effort in your avatar even tho it never is worse than medium at any displayed state. sure for the basic avatars that are just there and cant do anything more this doesnt change so much.
but they stab the people in the back that make content for the game. i am aware that there are some bad apples that abused the ability to toggle hidden objects, but they will continue doing it anyways. the only people that get punished are the honest creative avatar makers. this update is one of the biggest garbage dumps i have ever seen
i am a bit tired of repeating myself about how bad this update is... so here is also a lot of good explanations why this update just sucks https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/counting-hidden-objects-when-calculating-performance-rank-is-a-terrible-idea
also calling it "performance rank" is missleading. since it doesnt show the actualy perfomance but just everything that is on it and will most likely never be activated all at once
woeful ember
yeah i've already read it and it still isn't "killing" sure it's probably very saddening to see work that you optimized and put work into being hidden
regardless you gotta understand that the system is basically off by default
fathom mason
did you even read what i said and what i wrote in the canny? there are enough examples why it is horrible even with nobody having the performance rank blocking enabled
woeful ember
last time i checked you didn't "write" that canny unless you're raccoon in disguise
and yeah i've read it and my point still stands
fathom mason
scroll down, i was one of the first that commented
well there we have different opinions^^
woeful ember
well yeah the poly shit for non modified sdk is pretty bullshit
stuck moat
Since the update my avatars are showing more dynamic bone transforms than before. (from 16 to 22 on one, I only have 16 animated bones on my character though). I don't have any hidden objects on them. Anyone else having the same issue? Do I need to reupload the avatars with the new unity version maybe?
woeful ember
hence why i did comment earlier that they need to differentiate skinned polys from props
fathom mason
@stuck moat do you have offsets in your dynamic bone settings? it counts that too now
stuck moat
@fathom mason That could be. Must have overlooked that in the patchnotes. Thank you very much 🐣
fathom mason
good luck, i hope its only that^^
stuck moat
Will try as soon as the new unity version finishes installing.
rigid ridge
https://gyazo.com/899353965fd9177ed347699e44988038 imagine optimalized avatars in vrchat
Great update just keep up the good work👌 👌 👌
marsh trail
Has the system been incorrectly counting things?
I've seen quite a few ridiculous values going along
still perch
50 avatars in one? 
woeful ember
maybe people just believe that their very poor avatars are optimized
i'd love to see a before and after rather than a dark red list of high numbers
still perch
i'd also want to see the unity file and anythign that can explain these madness of numbers
like, i get that you'd hide one or two things like a weapon or something
but... like... THAT is a whole different level.
marsh trail
417 material slots though... what in the blazes is using that much?
woeful ember
maybe they swap between 416 outfits
still perch
more like a ton of outfits and avatars in one
cus 26 skinned meshes doesnt come from nowhere
rigid ridge
Its a 3 min long animation on myavatar..
marsh trail
Do the objects that are unused get disabled mid-animation atleast?
I can see that as being a major lag hoarder otherwise
still perch
even if that is the case this must be a giant avatar file
if you actually want to call that optimized regardless of enabled or disabled you have a creative mind. 
woeful ember
most game animations are designed to be optimized and short for obvious reasons
patent leaf
Only use the avatar when you need it then
woeful ember
perhaps you should consider using a separate avatar without the animation** that would definitely be better for bandwidth and memory
marsh trail
I hate the hidden objects being accounted for like most people do, and if the model properly manages disabling/enabling things, then props and i feel sorry for the limitations that are being slowly set in stone for creators like yourself
woeful ember
yeah it sucks but alot people think it's okay to make animations and throw everything in the kitchen into a bowl of cereal
marsh trail
All of those things could be managed and be lagless is the situation here, although the numbers look absurd, complex animations really stack up the numbers, even if optimized to hell and back
So i really feel for these animators
woeful ember
yeah
rigid ridge
Like for real now if you want to keep your avatar stats atleast medium you literally cant add anything
patent leaf
Make a sperate avatar that doesn't have everything
rigid ridge
1 particle system with trail insta medium btw
marsh trail
I also recall messing around with disabling/enabling dynamic components to not always be on the enabled state, that's kinda null&void now tbh
hasty jewel
I wouldnt know how to get some of my avatars back to at least medium without starting them from scratch.
solid bronze
Even by mistake, how do you even manage to fill a single avatar with 400 materials?
rigid ridge
Particle systems
Meshes like sword etc
https://gyazo.com/027e78d3e3b2969f3f49c13c2cac1d52
but i have higher ones
woeful ember
108 skinned meshes yum
solid bronze
must be a whooping lot of particles then... I don't think I've ever had 400 materials in all my avatars, all my projects combined.
rigid ridge
Wenow just racing with other animators who have higher xd
solid bronze
Seriously though, is the avatar stats just counting all the particles as meshes and materials? It can't be just the avatar itself, i refuse to believe it.
marsh trail
Material swaps too i assume?
solid bronze
in what situations would you require 3 THousand materials for animations?
marsh trail
Ironically animation avatars get crazy amounts of values, even if when used they seemingly cause no issues
If everything had a material swap, i could see the mat count double or even triple
solid bronze
"why is everyone blocking my avatar" - in the next episode of dragon balls.... stay tuned
marsh trail
Sounds about right
rigid ridge
Imagine blocking every very poor avatar
marsh trail
Don't imagine it, just flip the autohide switch
solid bronze
yeah well.. if i see those stats, that's an insta avatar block.
rigid ridge
Lobbies like for some people just floating blocked avatars
marsh trail
And then there's people that do outfit swaps, even being optimized, das very poor
solid bronze
Or just upload multiple avatars, different outfits.
marsh trail
Dynamic bone colliders that are only enabled on gesture? Very poor
Different light sources (1 per gesture, no shadowcasting) Very poor
solid bronze
I'm still manually blocking some ridiculous avatars, since dynamic bones usually just sends any avatar into very poor
marsh trail
Animations that spawn something very far away? Look at dem very poor bounds
solid bronze
IMO dynamic bones don't cause that much lag. or maybe i don't notice much since I don't play on a 10 year old pc that most players do. no offence but jesus.
solid bronze
Well, if you use an OG nanachi like I do, it does send you up to 600 dynamic bone counts or what it was called
the entire nanachi community got screwed over btw.
marsh trail
Most people did
marsh trail
Usually quite a few rows for the back, one row for the tail, 2 for the ears
3-5 rows for the back iirc
solid bronze
a long time ago... when i still had the cape and a ton of materials
woeful ember
well you got 10 colliders there you go
marsh trail
Eyup
solid bronze
all of which made the ears and cape move beautifully. The front hair wouldn't move right if used on the Head dynamic bone script. same with the ears
the ears themselves wouldn't go down, but stay up and move to the sides only.
marsh trail
Oh yeah, single root dynamic bone setups are horrid imo
gleaming sand
@rigid ridge u nub
solid bronze
That is why I had a bunch of components. so it wouldn't clip around either.
But now... sigh... it's boring and ugly.
marsh trail
Gotta make those quest-worthy avatars on pc amirite?
limber vale
nah
solid bronze
quest was a nice idea. Until they removed that 30k limit down to... what is it now, 7.5k?
woeful ember
poly limits are necessary for a platform like quest
marsh trail
It's a glorified android as a headset
solid bronze
oh ok, 10k now then
limber vale
but it never had a 30k limit
solid bronze
It did, though.
limber vale
it never had a limit until they finally did it
solid bronze
or was it 35k? I uploaded a decimated quest counterpart nanachi so quest users would see it
And they did see it. People on quest commented on it
limber vale
the limit was undecided (if thats what ur talking about)
solid bronze
Well I heard from Rantis that it was like 30-35k some weeks ago
limber vale
nah
solid bronze
Anyways, now i'm not gonna bother with a quest counterpart because a 10k limit is as ridonkalus as it was in the far past, except twice as worse
limber vale
do u know why its 10k?
solid bronze
imagine playing on quest and just seeing blocked avatars. what a nice rec room experience
Yes, it's because quest uses potato components.
marsh trail
So they can stuff more users into a room without their headsets frying i suppose?
solid bronze
Hopefully the next quest uses component from this millenia though. sigh.
complainssss...
marsh trail
What's the max player slots in a world for quest?
limber vale
i think they recommend 10
marsh trail
Any upperlimit?
solid bronze
I've seen 16
marsh trail
If 10, that'd equate to exactly their poly limit, 10k, if 16, the max polycount to plausibly maintain all of it would have to be 6250
So if every avatar went above said threshhold, it'd definitively go over the 100k limit per device
The headset is actually worse than i thought... sheesh i didn't think that was possible
There's rifts being sold for cheaper than quest, even though they're sadly being retailed instead of shipped from oculus, did they flat-out discontinue the standard rift?
I heard it wasn't available... well, anywhere
woeful ember
yeah they don't sell it officially anymore
they did a buncha sales for rift and ran out of stock i assume to make way for rift S
marsh trail
That sucks... i heard that the rift S is a downgrade
still perch
actually it isnt too bad
many people just think it sucks due to going inside out but oculus does it way better then WMR
lean lance
thats.. probably one of the only real good things, besides it being more portable and what not
surreal topaz
The Rift S is a downgrade
It also doesn't have IPD adjustment
The cameras and tracking are a bit better than WMR but overall you're getting a worse deal than with a Rift or a WMR.
As such, if my current Oculus dies, I'm getting an Index.
solid bronze
We'll see how great the index will be. For now I'm just happy to get a new VR HMD that doesn't overheat 2 minutes after startup ahem ahem vive pro...
lean lance
TBH the problem with the index is from what i've herd.. atleast... 6 month backlog, but atleast the basic vives pretty good.. yea?
surreal topaz
The vive controllers are legitimately the worst you could have
And the vive in general is super overpriced
vestal steeple
So who knows how to remove the additional material slots? I have four materials I atlas but have 10 material nslots in vrchat.
marsh trail
Material slots are accounting for everything, including disabled objects, do you have additional objects on your avatar?
surreal topaz
Also, I believe particle systems count for two slots even without a renderer
vestal steeple
Only one object and that is one material so it shouldn't be more then 5
Do empty objects count?
Because I have two for sounds...
marsh trail
Perhaps your model has empty material slots?
Keep in mind, reusing material slots with the same material will still account for those slots being present
Or perhaps the system is being dumber than usual
vestal steeple
That what I am asking how do I remove them in blender.
marsh trail
Under the hierarchy you have a row of icons, select the model first and then you'll see an icon that looks like a checkerboard sphere, that's where your materials are, select the unused ones and press the - button to the right of it
vestal steeple
Yeah pretty sure there is only four. Will have to check later thanks Exsgt.
marsh trail
Keep in mind that if any material is being used, it'll attach that section of it to the material above, if no material is above it, it'll put that section on the material below it
I.e.
BodyMat
EyeMat
Removing EyeMat will make the eyes use the BodyMat, and viceversa since BodyMat has nothing above it
vestal steeple
What about rolleyesfromannoyance.mat? Lol this thing giving me a headache after I finally got my avatars to most good lol
amber hemlock
I don’t know what people are talking about with all these suddenly-Very-Poor avatars due to excessive “empty material slots” - none of my avatars have this issue; were people intentionally giving themselves more material slots for some reason?
mossy solar
much rather have a stat for what's showing all the time on avatars and another for what is hidden
heady smelt
y'all aint seen nothin til you see 2^31 -1 particles on a single avatar
imagine literally having so many particles that you hit the signed 32 bit integer cap, meaning you actually have more but the vrchat devs didn't use a data type big enough to show you in the menu
and then complaining that the new system sucks
@amber hemlock it just refers to all materials, not just unique ones
vestal steeple
@amber hemlock @limber vale doesn't mean that the issue isn't there. Like I said not sure why my atlas avatar which I got down to four materials is suddenly back to 10 which turned it into medium, I will give you the anchor I made is an added material but that would still be 5 and good, were the other 5 are coming from is beyond me, u less empty o jects count as a material. I have two of those for sound clips.
amber hemlock
Empties do not count. Basic shapes do
And yeah I’m guessing people have a higher material count set on their skinned mesh renders than they actually need
You can change material count from 1 to 100 and vrc will say you have 100 even if you don’t
mint kernel
VRChat Devs are funny people, .. i think they love it to read one and the same book over end over again .. 4 times 5 times and more .. and realy hope somthing inside the book will change ... .. so they buld a script that checks every avatar , everytime it get loadet and are hoping something changes .. instead of saving the result in a database and if you load in an avatar the results will also be loadet ... 😉
heady smelt
yeah that's a little silly
we have to load an avatar before the system can block them
because they don't just store the performance info
minor wren
store where
mint kernel
i have to read "Titanic" again .. maybe this time the Ship will survive 😉
@minor wren in the same database that stores the rest of your avatar informations
minor wren
server or local
mint kernel
server
minor wren
so they would load up the avatar server side and grade it?
amber hemlock
Cashing would require a server that otherwise has no need
amber ridge
That would make sense
mint kernel
you can set a flag (never loadet) or something you want, and the first guy who rated an avatar saved it automaticly
amber hemlock
Why involve a server where one is not necessary
heady smelt
they dont even need to -load- the avatar server side
amber hemlock
You are just making a point of failure where one does not need to exist
amber ridge
Because bandwidth from Amazon is expensive
minor wren
uhum. and what if you send in false info about that avatar?
amber ridge
That's why it's run on-server
minor wren
that requires lots of resources
mint kernel
it requires very more resources to check an avatar everytime it loads
vestal steeple
@amber hemlock how is that fixed then?
amber hemlock
The whole point of Crowd sourced performance means no one can trick it
amber ridge
All it requires is a single server instance to run a performance check
minor wren
however, making a local cache sounds better
heady smelt
there is a local cache and they did it all wrong
it stores shit sequentially and when large enough no longer functions
minor wren
but that checking every time is done by the client
heady smelt
which kinda.... ruins the point of a cache
minor wren
and they don't need to pay for that
amber ridge
Isn't that a problem within Unity?
heady smelt
no the vrchat cache itself
amber ridge
They pay for the bandwidth to download the Avatar
Which is essentially immediately not used
amber hemlock
I need to be real here I think this is a record so far for obscure things to complain about
Make a canny...
minor wren
we do have more pressing issues
amber ridge
Yeah like picking better statistics to actually block avatars for performance rather than everything
Polygons, mesh renderers, materials, yes block them as very poor
Particles? We have a particle limiter for that
amber ridge
Oh did they break it?
amber ridge
Lol that's insane
minor wren
i doubt that's ever enabled by any means
amber ridge
Yeah mesh particles at that level just shouldn't be in an avatar even if it's properly segregated in emotes
There's an efficiency problem there
heady smelt
especially since the real number of particles is higher, that's just the cap that vrchat displays in the menu
mint kernel
this is not a crasher, this is an inactive object not bindet to an animation .. only to show how stupid this system is
heady smelt
why is an inactive object that isn't used at all even being uploaded?
just remove it
mint kernel
to show that you cannot trust a statistik anymore
heady smelt
i can always unhide people who are cool
amber ridge
I mean if you have literally unused shit all over your Avatar I don't want to load it 🤔
mint kernel
that element dosent do anything with perfomance, it is nice, it sits on a "good" avatar
heady smelt
now i understand why random avatars take forever to load, even without music
amber ridge
True facts: statistics are for legitimate information, not necessarily illegitimate information like stuff that’s never used on the avatar but slapped onto it
If anything I’m glad it makes them very poor
amber hemlock
If you have unused stuff on your avatar it is poorly optimized so the negative rating is accurate
still perch
Im very glad to be able to now identify why avatar loading is so slow and so much ram used now
with madness like this
heady smelt
imagine needing 3700 different shaders
patent leaf
There was an avatar world that have two different version of the avatar, one all clean nothing in them and one with all the special effects and sounds. Do that if your avatar have a truck load of unused hidden objects
heady smelt
reminder: you only need a unique material per shader
amber hemlock
It’s entirely accurate. You are using it if you are displaying it or not
heady smelt
mesh read/write is also entirely used for hiding poly count
imagine being so embarassed about it that you hide it
patent leaf
They know what they're doing
mint kernel
mint kernel
and you know what, this avatar have 8000 Polygones 4 Materials .. the rest of the information is garbage
heady smelt
thats literally "i will always be rendered: the avatar"
amber ridge
Wtf that bounds size
heady smelt
then remove the shit that's making it garbage
mint kernel
it dosent count, the avatar dont load longer or thigs like that
minor wren
the problem with these statistics is that most people don't understand them, they just see large numbers and freak out.
mint kernel
it is "one" plane at 1+e30
heady smelt
why did you make that?
mint kernel
2 polys
amber ridge
2 polys and 1355 material slots?
mint kernel
1 mesh particle system (inactive) multiplicates all materials more and more
heady smelt
its almost like he thinks we don't know but he's actually the one that doesn't know
mint kernel
without that "one" inaktiv plane and particle system the avatar is rated "good" 😉
amber ridge
@ me when it's uploaded please
heady smelt
then remove your one inactive plane.
still perch
why not make the object at the avatar in low scale and put it away with an animation
shouldnt that work around the bounding box issue
heady smelt
bounding box changes actively ingame
mint kernel
you can also put every particle system to a max of 0 and animate it to 10.000.000
heady smelt
the screenshot shows that the plane was that far away when checked
mint kernel
but that showes more that the statistic is stupid
still perch
it shows that its still exploitable, not nesseseirly stupid
amber hemlock
Ok but why
I’m asking for the practical reason you are doing this
What function are you accomplishing
mint kernel
the biggest laggy thing at the moment is that script that everytime an avatar loads is checking it
it laggs more than every avatar you see
and that for an information that dosent realy help
amber hemlock
Thought so
amber ridge
Saying that avatars appear to load much faster now
mint kernel
one thing that can help, is to store that information that dosent change ..
so it can be loadet and the script dosent need to run every time an avatar is changed#
still perch
store it how, and where.
amber ridge
And yes I agree there should be a system that doesn't just assess on load
still perch
it would have to be calucalte on the server and submited bya trusted client
amber ridge
Maybe the master can assess and push it to everyone else
still perch
else people will once again just mod the fuck out of it