#avatar-optimization | VRChat | Page 36

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 4:59 PM

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its one thing that drops the rating which is absurd

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unless its extremely low it shouldnt be dragging the whole rating down

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:00 PM

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Lots of people want a weighted system but that feels much more contrived rank labels are just artificial and kind of meaningless at that point

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:00 PM

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because on average its not that laggy

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no they are more accurate

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having a lot of bad properties is not the same as having one

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:00 PM

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You would no longer be meeting a specification

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:00 PM

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yea but thats not the point

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the limits arent what cause lag

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the combination of all them is

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if u rank low on all avatars and they lag more then me then why should my performance rank the same for having only one of those categories being low

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:02 PM

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As the rankings are at the moment, they don't state your actual avatars' qualifications but instead if your avatar meets all the standards at the same time for any given specification

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:02 PM

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A weighted system doesn’t change lag either getting. Making a weighted system so a laggy avatar can be rated medium instead of poor doesn’t make it less laggy

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:02 PM

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its obvious that the other user has a much less performant avatar

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no thats not the point

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it wont be rated medium

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im saying say you have excellent everywhere

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but poor dynamic bones

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u should be dropped to good or at least med

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because overall the character is ok

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obviously if u misuse dynamic bones then u should go to poor/verypoor bc of how over the limit the value is

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but again to be ranked the same lag-wise as someone who has an even worse avatar

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is what im saying this avoids

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:03 PM

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Diminishing returns system essentially

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:03 PM

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yea each value has a punish value

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instead of it being like a minimum value

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the lower the score the more punish it has to the overall

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:04 PM

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Dynamic bones are the biggest problem with performance in the game as far as uploaded content is concerned. Your basically asking if you optimize all the stuff with far less real impact if you can get away with being more heavy on the worst thing possible and get away with a better rating? No...

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:04 PM

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no that makes absolutely no sense

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because it would still rank the avatar as poor

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the lower the score the more punish it has to the overall

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so if u go crazy on one property it will hurt u

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but just because its a little lower ranked doesnt mean the entire avatar is

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:05 PM

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Obviously dynamic bones would have further impact in terms of value weight

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:05 PM

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yea but the idea is that a combination of low scores should make them much lower than they are now

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:05 PM

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Getting excellent in everything except dynamic bones does not make your avatar any less laggy. Lag only cares about your worst category

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:05 PM

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and a few low scores should reduce optimizatoin impact

karmic condor Dec 27, 2018, 5:05 PM

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Does lowering the refresh rate up dB performance

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:05 PM

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and no it doesnt

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obviously having several poor properties

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is much worse than having 1 or 2

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which is my point

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and obviously having very very poor things still impact performance significantly

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also my point

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which is what i was talking about and how it could satisfy both issues

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:07 PM

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If an avatar is laggy then they went over the limitations established to such a degree that a diminishing returns system could land them in poor/very poor even if everything else is excellent

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:07 PM

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^^^

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:07 PM

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If dynamic dynamic bones are bottlenecking your frame rate it doesn’t matter if you have 1 material or 500. They aren’t the bottleneck.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:07 PM

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thats not what were talking about [2]

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If an avatar is laggy then they went over the limitations established to such a degree that a diminishing returns system could land them in poor/very poor even if everything else is excellent

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but if its not that low then obviously its not that laggy and it shouldnt punish them that far

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and also again what this prevents is people doing the minimum possible

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to make all categorys medium so they can be medium

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when in this system they will rank as poor or lower for that

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the point were making is the more something lags the more punish it has to the overall score

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its not that each item is an individual decider

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:09 PM

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Nobody is asking for laggy avatars to be accepted, just for a better and more accurate rating system that works in a weighted manner instead of absolutes of 1's and 0's

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:10 PM

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so the more laggy categories you have the more punishment your overall rating gets

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and the more lag in that category that punishment is multiplied

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:10 PM

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If you have a certain number of dynamic bones you will be rated poor or very poor. It doesn’t matter how well optimized any other aspect of your avatar is. Each limit was chosen in isolation. Being good at one thing doesn’t earn brownie points to get away with worse in another aspect. Lag is lag.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:10 PM

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yes but again

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that makes no sense that argument makes no sense

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and it is completely irrelevant bc as we already stated

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if its that laggy then their score will be lowered anyways

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the point of this system is to make sure that people who have laggier sets of components and more of them get far more punished then people with a lot less lag

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it has nothing to do with 'oh ok theyre only bad here so give them excellent'

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it depends on how bad

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and how many bad

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:12 PM

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Dynamic bones = bad

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:12 PM

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yea lol

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:12 PM

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Dynamic bone collider = also bad

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:12 PM

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Preddy much

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:12 PM

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but the argument we making is that with new system its more accurate at measuring lag / optimization

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:13 PM

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It can't measure lag, because it's not dynamic and it's not relative to your PC specs anyway

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:13 PM

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ik that

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but it measures optimization better than currently

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:13 PM

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The values may change, but the way they are set now is an indicator of where they'll be set to if they were to change

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:14 PM

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i get that but read the above points we made

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:14 PM

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There's reasons for all these values, they weren't chosen randomly

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:14 PM

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i get that [2] but read our points

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there is no 1 deciding factor in the optimization anymore

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its a collection of punishments

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:14 PM

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Yeah, because they add up too

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:14 PM

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the more punishments the lower the score obv and the stronger the punishment the lower the score again

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yea but my avatars sometimes get poor just because of one or two poor properties

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and got the same rank as someone with almost everything in the red

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:15 PM

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That's how it works

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:15 PM

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Personally i'd prefer a weighted system like such myself as it seems fairly reliable and fair for the end user

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:15 PM

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so why would i be ranked the same

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when clearly my avatar is much better optimized

karmic condor Dec 27, 2018, 5:15 PM

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Me and my friends were playing with a specific laggy avatar last night. It was fun but we all agreed it didn’t have a place in a public instance

calm spade Dec 27, 2018, 5:16 PM

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Because dynamic bones are bad, if it has dynamic bones it isn't really performant

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Regardless of optimization

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If you want to keep them then you need to understand that they're not performant, you can have a version with and one without

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:17 PM

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here an example

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https://i.gyazo.com/2f3e10441241c42cff87ed0e736a6865.png

karmic condor Dec 27, 2018, 5:17 PM

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Some clever weight painting can reduce your dynamic bone count drastically

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:18 PM

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medium/poor for second to last

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bc that way people who get a low score on less categories arent punished as bad as people who get low scores on more categories or people who get lower scores on fewer

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cloth and dynamic bones being weighted more than the other components

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its not just about dynamic bones thats not my issue

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i just dont like how it slumps people into undeserving categories

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when this is a more accurate estimation

reef plinth Dec 27, 2018, 5:21 PM

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If DB is a problem for now and the future, why not changing for Graphics.Blit Scripts or something else instead of continuing using the DB ?

https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/graphicsblit-scripts

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:22 PM

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like everything on an avatar of mine for example is good or excellent and 1 thing is medium with another poor, should be at least medium right

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:22 PM

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Sorry but your system seems less intuitive Wulfe. It feels arbitrary

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:22 PM

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wym

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its designed to punish users who make less optimized avatars not users who rank like one of their properties low but not significantly enough to cause that much lag if any

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:24 PM

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Each category of the ranking system was chosen in isolation. For example when they decided that 50 dynamic bones was medium, it was done under the assumption that every other aspect of the avatar was excellent. 50 dyn bones alone makes it medium.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:24 PM

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yea but then why would cumulative low scores not put people lower than someone who has very few

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:25 PM

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compared to dynamic bones any other optimization is already negligible

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:25 PM

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yea but thats not my point

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u can still weight cloth and dynamic bones respectively to offer more punishment

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but if someone has way too many materials way too many DB, way too many cloth verts (all low but not very poor)

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i dont see why they arent ranked as low as possible

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and why im on that same level

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:26 PM

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If dynamic bones were rated poor with everything else excellent, it would be worse than dynamic bones being rated medium with all other things also medium. What you are saying would eliminate any drive to improve the avatar

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:26 PM

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when clearly its not as laggy

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no thats not the point at all

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:27 PM

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Imagine that an avatar literally doesn't have dynamic bones, got a single value categorized as poor, whereas everything else is excellent, they're automatically considered poor

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:27 PM

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^^

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:27 PM

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People would just play the min/max game and keep their laggy dynamic bones

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:27 PM

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Imagine that an avatar literally doesn't have dynamic bones

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excuse me

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also why would an avatar with poor everything be as bad as an avatar with poor in one category

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doesnt add up

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also as u said 'they were chosen individually'

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:28 PM

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And that's why it's based upon diminishing returns, no amount of minmaxing would let you have a laggy avatar due to db

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:28 PM

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so that means medium in another category is also actual medium

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so unless the developers had no idea how much lag things caused in retrospect

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poor should lag nearly as hard as another poor

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otherwise i dont really see the point in them having the same rank value

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i mean u could always just set up control avatars

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where u increase everything to its limits until it lags as much as another property

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individually

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:31 PM

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Dynamic bones is being used as the crux of the argument whereas it'd obviously be weighted the most and of course have the largest diminishing returns

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:31 PM

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it will still function as its supposed to

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but the thing here is

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medium isnt going to be a medium punishment

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the punishment for medium is actually lower than medium

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which is why it can rank users to poor and very poor for having terrible ratings

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even if none of them are in that rank

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 5:33 PM

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Wait wait, how does this rank thing work again?

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:33 PM

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The established one or the one we're talking about?

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 5:34 PM

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The established version

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:35 PM

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If any variable goes over a treshold you get automatically placed in such regardless of any other optimized sections

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I.e. Excellent everything and Poor polycount as an example lands you on the Poor category

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:36 PM

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Because it’s less of a rating and more of a specification

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Perhaps the problem is the name

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:36 PM

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no thats not the issue

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the issue is that it is a specification

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and not an actual rating of who is more optimized than who

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:37 PM

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You understand what meeting a standard means right

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:37 PM

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yes but again that is not the point

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ur clearly missing the fact that there is way too much innacuracy

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and like the majority of avatars currently in vrchat are poor and medium just because of this issue

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when in reality a lot less of them are

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its just the system thats not that great

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:38 PM

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Essentially you are asking to overall, make the rating of the avatars fall

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:38 PM

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no

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again completely missing the point

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:38 PM

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Because that’s all that would happen with your changes

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:38 PM

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The problem is that people are seeing it as a rating whereas it's actually meeting a standard, which makes many users annoyed or even relunctant about others' avatars even if they're in a general sense very well optimized i suppose

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:38 PM

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no it wont

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the point is to make ratings more accurate

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 5:39 PM

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So wait hold on, depending on the type of unoptimization on a person, does that mean you get demoted in a way?

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:39 PM

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literally no argument u stated is relevant to the solution

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no basically

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the lower the categorys in total the stronger the punishment

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and that punishment is multiplied by how low the category is

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current its like like a standard

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its not set up like this

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so having everything low gives you an awful rating

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having a few things low gives you a less than great rating

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and having like one thing low doesnt take off too much

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:40 PM

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If this is for meeting standards i'd say keep the "rating" for the user not the public, so they know their "rating" as it stands it's essentially a ranking system that anybody can flip out over

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:40 PM

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because its true that avatar is pretty well optimized

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compared to others that might share the rank with the current system

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 5:41 PM

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Oof. Atlasing

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:41 PM

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yea but that wouldnt be necessary if it was more accurate

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also if there was a way to judge how much performance an avatar uses up that would be super cool

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but i dont think things can be measured like that

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all avatars load their properties synchronously so

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:42 PM

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That'd be pretty neat yeah

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:42 PM

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u could also set something up like if someone uses a gesture and it lags it could show in a log

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or someone loads and it lags

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:43 PM

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I’d personally like to know the stats of any avatar I wear, as well as those in the same world as me worn by others. Rating ain’t important to me@but I do want the stats

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:43 PM

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actually a log would be a great idea

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a log of like particles when they are enabled

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:43 PM

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I'm all up for statistics, but this is essentially a be-all end-all rating system, if it's for meeting standards, keep it to the user

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:43 PM

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and objects

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:43 PM

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We currently have that.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:44 PM

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that shows up in the game

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:44 PM

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Yes

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:44 PM

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for vr users also

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:44 PM

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I can deduce rank from stats anyway.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:44 PM

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yea but i mean like

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a log where particles, sounds, objects, and their owners are all logged so u can

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see who is lagging the game

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or who is spawning all those particles

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and click on the perosn to block them

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:45 PM

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Sounds like overhead and a cause of drama :x

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:45 PM

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or to see their menu

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:45 PM

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Yes you can, but at that point it's the user deducing it, not a system selectively stating it out loud

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:45 PM

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not really u can just listen to the events locally its not that much overhead

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and also it would be easier to find crashers

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and u could also make it report avatar cloning

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in case people clone an avatar u blocked

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or if it could block it automatically like in the feature req

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:46 PM

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Oof I don’t like the direction this is going. The more stuff you add like this the more drama there is and people stop having fun and just start going meta talking about stuff like this in game

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:46 PM

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what

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none of these should have a negative impact really

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possibly the rating system but not the other suggestions

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im sure a lot of people would like a log to help fight lag, spam, and crashers and avatar blocking to prevent cloning from ruining the game

echo snow Dec 27, 2018, 5:48 PM

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People are getting butt hurt about a system designed to help them optimize their development work. After release of it my personal avatar passes for excellent now and loads from blue man in less than a second. So the system is doing the intended job by helping.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:50 PM

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yea i get that but

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were not saying the system is bad

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were saying its inaccurate

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if u have an excellent avatar good 4 u but

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:51 PM

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Does the system require other users to be aware of what the end user needs to know (the ranking), aside the avatar statistics for such?
Other than the ranking i'm all up for optimization and avatar information

echo snow Dec 27, 2018, 5:52 PM

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I don't really think it is inaccurate. There is no accuracy to be had since it has to take in account all computer types. Beefy CPU with wimpy GPU? Wimpy CPU with beefy GPU? Number of polygons will affect those differently.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:52 PM

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yea but thats not what i mean

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talking about multiple low scores

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vs few if any

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the ranking system says a lot of these similar cases have the same performance ratings

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when obviously the former is much worse than the latter

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when u look at stats urself

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ur using the same process were talking about

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how ur weighting categories and checking how many are low

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:54 PM

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As the ranking establishes standards to meet i think in my honest opinion that the end user should be the only ones seeing it, as it causes drama over something that can be easily explained and passed over by looking at the actual statistics

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:54 PM

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independent of the avatars actual ranking

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and ur like 'oh ok this avatars actually not that bad'

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that process is a more accurate estimation

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 5:55 PM

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Gonna be honest if the rank wasn’t public I wouldn’t have optimized. I wanted my green star and I wanted everyone to see it

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:55 PM

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If it was to establish a visible ranking then one would expect it to be actually reasonable in terms of acertaining the actual values

echo snow Dec 27, 2018, 5:55 PM

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I like having the icons pop up over player's name plates. Teleporting into a room and seeing the world start to jitter I can immediately find the culprit to disable their avatar.

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:55 PM

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well having a green star kinda sucks tho bc it means theres not a lot in the avatar

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if u rlly wanna make it look good the rating system typically slops you into poor

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but again thats bc of all the cool things u put on it

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which is somewhat reasonable=

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only if the majority of the properties are low or any very low tho

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 5:56 PM

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And then you see very poor avatars that literally cause no lag over a single variable, bam blocked

ancient crystal Dec 27, 2018, 5:57 PM

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yea dude this tank was ranked poor but their cannon

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instant 4 fps

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mine is ranked poor

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buuuut is it really..?

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:01 PM

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I optimized a single avatar i use just to avoid witch hunting and people losing it whilst my avatar never caused any issues to anyone, even in a nigh full room, that is the only reason i did it fear, over criticism and possible accusations

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That's what the system has brought upon me

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Not to have a shiny green badge or be seen as a person that optimizes avatars, the old ranking system still hates me to this day even though i never went over the polycount before and after its inception, and caused nobody any distress, so i inherently dislike this system aswell, another label to tag me, i'm honestly getting tired of trying to be optimization friendly as it keeps feeling like it doesn't even matter anymore

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 6:10 PM

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I mean... promoting the concept of optimizing your avatar is a great idea for it helps with performance on lower end pcs and overall performance for everyone. Question is if it was a good idea to use this system to “motivate” people to optimize their models

echo snow Dec 27, 2018, 6:10 PM

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For some, yes. For the trolls on a certain avatar website... It has the opposite effect.

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:11 PM

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Guess i'm not one or the other there

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I'm all up for optimization and helping people in that regard, especially promoting it with methods that retain a models' original concepts in mind, i however, am not in favor over this system at all, and if anything, it demotivates me more than it informs me

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:23 PM

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My avatar looks identical to before the rank came out, but now it’s rated excellent instead of poor. I had a ton of hidden geometry, I was using custom animators instead of idle override, my bounding box was huge, and my avatar was split into like 12 skinned mesh renders for no reason. So yes this system helps people who have no idea what they were doing and had no idea they were unoptimized.

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Finally:

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📎 image0.png

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:24 PM

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its literally inaccurate

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id be glad to show you

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:25 PM

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Are you saying there are ways to make the count be inaccurate?

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:25 PM

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known since closed beta

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:25 PM

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Because it’s not measuring lag

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:25 PM

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or podsibly earlier

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its shown wrong numbers plenty

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:26 PM

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If you know enough to intentionally trick the system then you at least know your rating is false. You are aware your avatar isn’t suddenly optimized and less laggy just because toy tricked it. So the system isn’t really for you.

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:26 PM

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peopl are doing it on accident

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:26 PM

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Then that’s a bug

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:27 PM

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yes. its inaccurate.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:27 PM

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I think inaccurate is different to a bug

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:28 PM

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its inaccuratedue to bugs...

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extra mats being read is another ive heard of. no particles, nothing hidden. read 13 and not 6 if i remember right

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:30 PM

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Oh right that happens when a user reuses mats and it tries to count the total mats at times and at times the actual used mats

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I've had it jumping between 2 and 6 on my model

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:32 PM

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basically why i dislike the ranks, besides the lack of weighting. its broken

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big bounds due to pen but excellent everywhere else? very poor

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most users dont undertand what the numbers and stats mean. they see icon and react

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:34 PM

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SDK or client? Or both? The SDK being super inaccurate is known

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:34 PM

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both

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:34 PM

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Yep das on both

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Also varies between external user and client

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:35 PM

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i was refrring to ingame though. for this convo. forgot the sdk had one since its worthless

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ah that too. i believe in some cases the other users see the "true" or corrct stats, but not all the time

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:36 PM

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Yep

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At times the bounds also vary

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Oddly enough

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:37 PM

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one spoof was undetected in testing we did while others worked clientside only

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:39 PM

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I just have a feeling this system is going to be used to test the general public consensus on avatar optimization and build a new system based on such that blocks values over the norm

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It's guidelines for now but that may change in the future

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:40 PM

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well the patchnotes say that

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somewhat in the polycount part

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but its probably more just to help with awareness. i hear a lot of "wait tht number matters?"

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especially db script stuff

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:47 PM

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I mean atleast it does good in that front, but i still would much rather see avatar details indepth rather than the current system, that sort of encourages blocking of users without much of a second thought, and that's not even that far of a stretch

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Only thing i don't like about the system?
The ratings, that's about it

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Avatar details are a complete a-ok for me

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:49 PM

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Devils advocate: if someone blocks for such silly reasons would they really have been worth interacting with

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:50 PM

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Yes actually, many people have that kneejerk reaction as they may have had many previous bad instances with bad users

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And may be completely civil people

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:50 PM

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And I’ve had someone say they will block excellent for being boring. You can’t counter crazy

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:51 PM

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Never heard of that one before, but everybody's different to an extent, so it's not entirely surprising

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:51 PM

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Different is a nice way to put it :p

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 6:52 PM

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Eh, true

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But do keep in mind i completely understand the system, i would just prefer it be implemented in a better manner, or one that wouldn't encourage such behavior from users that either don't want issues from avatars from past incidents or even from warnings from fellow users

#

It's just my personal opinion on the matter anyway

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:54 PM

#

Well I have no preference. I wouldn’t wine if the public rank went away and it doesn’t bother me. If someone wants to block poor avatars they will be very lonely

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:54 PM

#

its not a sily reason to them, theyre told tht theyre being lagged

#

by the description andd everything. to a less knowledgebble user its a good reason to block

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

Well what I am saying is they will be blocking like 70% of users

#

Let them be dumb x)

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

uhhhh or yknow

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

Most people have common sense

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

fix the issue thats misinforming users

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:58 PM

#

Well I suppose. I just wonder if this is a lot of worry over something that just isn’t happening

#

I’m just not hearing people saying they are getting blocked

#

I’m not hearing any complaining about rank

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 6:59 PM

#

any spread of misinformation is bad, and yes, people complained here

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 6:59 PM

#

Or even discussion about it outside of this discord

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:00 PM

#

youre blind and deaf or isolated lol

#

i hear it in publics and friends+

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:00 PM

#

Not every user that's been blocked is going to start talking about it, especially when the system is being so vehemently protected

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:01 PM

#

Plenty of discussion about it in the creator communities. You wouldn’t care if you weren’t part of those

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:02 PM

#

I do think the system should be dynamic. For example if a prop would make you poor but it’s inactive, don’t count it unless it’s inspected while active

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:02 PM

#

Don’t really agree with that either

#

Shouldn’t be dynamic in many cases

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:02 PM

#

im not even part of any and i hear itout of discord plenty

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

That’s the point you only hear it on discord

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

You don’t tho

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

"out of discord"

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

It’s worrying over a thing that isn’t gaping

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

They just said they hear it out of discord plenty

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

stop, please. youre literally just wrong.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

Well alright then I just don’t hear it I spend a bunch of time in public

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

How skilled are you at making avatars

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

How do they even know their avatar is being hidden

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

its a topic i hear almost nothing good about. its inaccrate and misinforms.

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

^

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

Well, there's 2 kinds of block i suppose, the avatar sense, and the literal sense

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

I hear plenty about it in worlds, vrc canny, reddit, and discord

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

I mean I would expect people to drag their feet wanting to optimize and hate the system

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

the potential for it to be good is the nly positive thing i hear

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

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It’s like being told to clean your room

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

I understand the need for optimization but it literally doesnt measure optimization

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

Of course no one likes it

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

That’s the problem

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:06 PM

#

Please stop playing devil's advocate with such poor points

#

People dislike it because it's inaccurate. People dislike it because it's misinforming. People dislike it because it's poorly weighted.

#

Yes, there are people who just don't want to optimize but not everyone with a Poor or Very Poor avatar is a world maker with 2500 collisions

#

some are mutes with markers, or people with otherwise very performant avatars but too much of something that's not even significant

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:08 PM

#

It limits creativity by misinforming people who don’t understand that the guidelines aren’t reflective of actual optimization

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:08 PM

#

Well everyone I work with is just all “I’m not getting rid of my colliders”

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:08 PM

#

To correct your analogy. it's more like people being told to clean their rooms because it's filthy, but some people only have a few socks laying around while others are sitting on week old food

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:08 PM

#

“Wtf why did you Atlas this”

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

You haven't been working with all that many favorable people then

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

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No they are great

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

I still think, renaming the ranks (along with better weighting) would help the situation...

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

Theeen...

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

More people are simply uninformed.

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

It just needs weighting

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

They just don’t know anything about optimization and are mad they can’t get their stuff in a public world pedistals

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

Oh that's a world issue then

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

I've ran into SO many people who just don't know and never knew that dynamic bones were such a big cause of lag. WHy do yo uthink this is?

#

Oh, so they're uninformed cool

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

They are informed they just don’t care

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

I don’t think you understand the legitimate issues people have with the system adeon

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

"they don't know anything about optimization" so they're uninformed

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

They are taking about making clonable alts to just stand here where the pedistals would be

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:11 PM

#

That's either a meme or they're stupid.

#

You'd need 10 clients open minimum.

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:11 PM

#

Well then

#

Hold my water

#

But no seriously, that's really... ehhh

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:12 PM

#

10 clients, all connected tothe game at once, eating up your bandwidth and PC resources

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:12 PM

#

If they’re that dedicated to an idiotic idea then let them

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:12 PM

#

So your PC is now rendering a dozen or more ybots (assuming they've got at least that much brains to block avatars), on top of any users that join 10 times

#

so you're rendering 120 ybots, the world itself (lighting, mats, etc) 12 times

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:13 PM

#

Well that is my main brush with those who hate the ranking system

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:13 PM

#

If someone has the resources to do that then tbh more power to them. the 99% of people do not.

#

Stupid, uninformed people? You did nothing but prove my point.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:13 PM

#

How do you suggest to improve it

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:13 PM

#

The ranking system should exist but it needs weighting

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

The same way everyone has been saying. Weight the system properly and make sure it scans correclty.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

I don’t see how weighting helps

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

....

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

Because ur misinformed

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

^

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

If it's weighted properly, and applies the diminishing returns system wulfe recommended it should make alll the difference

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

Will the laggy avatar be rated better

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

No

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

"laggy avatar" stop

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

Nope, they wouldn't

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

Then what does it change

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

You're proving our point. you equate Rank to Lag

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

Infact, they'd be rated more accurately

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

Very Poor = / = Lag

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

The point is that some avatars that aren’t laggy get marked as poor performance

#

With weighting that would stop

#

Mostly

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

For the most part yeah

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

Let’s be real the majority of poor avatars are due to insane dynamic checks

#

If not that then materials

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

True

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

So is that an argument against a properly functioning system?

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

Weighting will change nothing people will still hate it

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

We don't know the true stats, but it sounds reasonable to assume such

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

EXCEPT WEIGHTING IS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS

#

You can't see the forest for the trees dude

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

Talk of bounding boxes and such is not why people hate it. That’s an edge case that will make YOU and a few other people happy

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

Me? It does'nt affect me whatsover nice try though

#

MY bounding boxes are always Excellent. Lots of people use pens etc

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

Most agree that the system should exist. We just argue that it should be accurate. And it’s happened to many avatar creators

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

You're willfully being ignorant and doing nothing but proving our point.

#

Open your eyes. If things are properly weighted then the people with otherwise performant avatars won't be ranked as poor/very poor.

versed stump Dec 27, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

vrpill

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

And it's supposedly getting a weighted upgrade in V2...

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:18 PM

#

V2? VRCHAT 2

#

Electric Boogaloo

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:18 PM

#

The main reason people dislike the system is because

It's weighted improperly.
It's inaccurate
Or it exposes their unoptimized avatars with 2000 collision and 50 colliders.

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:18 PM

#

You could have the best optimized avatar and 1 marker on it making your Avatar very poor performance. That is an issue

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

People arguing against the system just don’t understand how avatars work

karmic condor Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

Saw a avatar where every loose part was it’s own skinned mesh. That’s the stuff that needs to stop. And 300+ dynamic bones with colliders

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

Same goes for people with 1 poly avatars and tesselation shaders on them that lag entire lobbys

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

People will just do the minimum needed to min/max. The system is strict right now, weighting will be far too lenient. If you tell me I can make my avatar slightly more laggy and stay excellent of course I’m gonna min-max as much as possible

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

Oh my god

#

proper weighting is what will prevent you from doing that

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

Bruh u just don’t understand how avatars work

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

Go for it I guess

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

You don't understand how numbers work.

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

Ur proving ur ignorance

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

You say it’s more accurate I don’t think so but if I am wrong and it’s more accurate than yes it’s better.

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

Diminishing Returns, if something goes way too over the limit the system will amass the weight into the negative zone, so a laggy avatar will still be considered poor or very poor

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

Your reasoning as to why it's inaccurate has concrete proof to being wrong.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:21 PM

#

Ok last attempt

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:21 PM

#

Just to be clear adeon... The first day it launched, tupper and aev were saying that it was planned to be weighted, but it will be implemented later. So it's not an invalid point to ask for weighted when the devs themselves want it like that

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:21 PM

#

Honestly maybe it should just measure draw calls

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:21 PM

#

Look, I pose a simple question to you.

Are you telling me that you believe Very Poor Bounding and 256 Dynamic bone collision count are equal in the performance hit?

#

I'd like a simple yes or no, there's really no other answer to the question.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

This isn’t about what your avatar is rated. It’s about how laggy you can make your avatar and still get a given rating. Right now the system may be inaccurate; but it’s inaccurate on the side of being overly STRICT. What will making the system less strict do? Make the average avatar less optimized.

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

What...

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

Wat

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

????

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

Alright, one more time here

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

That was my last attempt.

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

From the very start we've been talking about the rating system

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

I found an amazing way around the system. I just optimize and it never catches me.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

I’m tired of trying

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

I've got 10 avatars. They're all ranked very poor. All for different reasons.

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

You can't succeed Adeon because you aren't correct.

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

Weighting is implemented, and suddenly some are good, some are Very Poor, some are Medium. How are any of those avatars more or less laggy

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

You can be optimized and still have the very poor rank tho.... that’s our argument

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

You can't even seem to define "laggy" when also arguing your point.

#

That's because the system isn't finished yet. Which is why weighting and other things need taken into account.

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

Exactly

#

This guy argues against weighting....

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

He argues against proper accuracy of "lag" detection because he thinks it will magically makes avatars more laggy

#

Right now next to no one is trying because no matter what you do, one point can just drag you into the shitter.

#

Excellent avatar but you have a snail pen? Very Poor. Good avatar but you've got a snail pen? Very poor. Medium avatar but you've got a snail pen? Very Poor.

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:26 PM

#

It's like lets say I make a really amazing map that renders in benchmarks amazingly well. However it runs bad when being used cause everyone cast shadows and the world renders twice due to being in VR per lens.

#

you can "detect" it's lag but it's inaccurate

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:27 PM

#

Proper weighting and you'll probably hit Medium or Good assuming no other factors, and with proper weighting those "other factors" will be accounted for.

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:27 PM

#

It’ll be a more accurate comparison of lag between avatars

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:28 PM

#

I’m not arguing against weighting. I’m arguing against more relaxed requirements for a given rank.

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:28 PM

#

You're arguing against accuracy.

#

You're literally arguing against fair rankings.

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

Mic

#

Adeon doesnt understand what you mean

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

If you weight in a way that does not let you make an avatar with excellent everything except dyn bones suddenly get a better rating than I don’t care.

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

If your avatar still ends up being "very poor" due to the weighting, it'll still be "very poor"

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

These people are not asking for less strict requirements

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

@amber hemlock then you aren’t arguing with anyone here

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

That....that's what weighting is my guy

#

Weighting is literally "Dynamic bones mean more than polys"

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:30 PM

#

I am interpreting weight as in “weighted average” right now, it’s just a floor round

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:30 PM

#

It's giving things a certain value in terms of "weight" in which they are accounted for "dynamically" which makes it more fair as you actualy get accurate values

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

Right now excellent except for all but one very poor is very poorly. That very poor counts with 100% weight. You are saying it should be less than 100% weight

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

Several people are typing....

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

Try and "cheat" by being excellent in every category but go overboard wtih dynamic bones? DB would be weighted higher on the scale than everything else to begin with, meaning your avatar will be ranked accordingly

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

wait .. we weren't talking about weight painting?
🤔

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

lol

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

Lol

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

We weren't?

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

🤔

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

And the fact you're Excellent in every category BUT DB means you're not as bad as you could've been, even if it does still hit you to Very Poor

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

Right now your worst category counts as 100% weight! In a weighted system, it would be less!

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

We could switch how we are discussing this. Lets say every bone causes another 1ms of render time for arguements sake. an avatar with 200 bones wil render at 200ms vs a 65 bone avatar at 65ms. If every dynamic bone causes 10ms per transform it effects. So if you have 5 dynamic bones on both those avatars. one will equal 115 ms the other 250.

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

@amber hemlock they are not asking for a less strict system. They want the categories within the system to have a more accurate weighting to them depending on how much the individual categories affect your avatars performance. So say you have only 2 categories, polygon count and dynamic bone count, the influence of the amount of dynamic bones should be “weighted” higher, compared to a slightly higher amout of polygons. Overall this doesnt make the rating system more strict or less strict but it makes the individual categories more accurrately “punishing” depending on how much potential influence they have.

#

Also, please correct me if i got something wrong*

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:33 PM

#

Sounds about right to me, just want accurate rating based on the total weighted value of every category

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:34 PM

#

Well there u go thanks EXS 😃

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:34 PM

#

Instead of a 1 decides all sort of deal

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:34 PM

#

Yeah, if anything that would cause people to optimize better because you won't just be hitting Very Poor for something stupid like your pen and just giving up

#

Really, why bother if my pen puts me to Very Poor? I may as well go ham on my DB and stuff.

#

Or my poly, or anything else

#

PEn just being the main example I use since it's the most relevant one due to the amount of people using them.

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:34 PM

#

Hoping my rigid body arm avatar gets a rank above very poor lol since it’s very well optimized but uses to rigid bodies not affected by gravity

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:34 PM

#

I understand that but how is that not more relaxed in the case of dynamic bones? It just lets you get a bit more dynamic bones in because other things nudged your rank up

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

just put a keyboard on your forearm and point at the damn letters 😄

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

Does the bounding box size really make a noticeable impact?

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

Yes, the "lag" you cause is stil lequal....

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

bounding box size prevents your avatar from culling

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

It does in some cases, yes. It's culling related.

tired badger Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

so it renders no matter where you are facing

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

Yeah i know that...

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

So if you're perfect in every regard but bounding it's no big deal

#

But if you've got a pen and 500 DB, you're never not culling those DB unless they're 20meters away (or 12.5 Tups as I discussed a while back)

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:36 PM

#

It can cause some issues if there's alot to render constantly, but that's about it iirc

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:36 PM

#

If you think it’s possible to make an artificial weighted system that fairly represents lag impact sure but I think a system like that is far too arbitrary to be fair and too complex to explain why people got the rank they did

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:37 PM

#

It's actually the proper way to do this system and they even know that and plan on implementing it afaik

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:37 PM

#

But everyone disagrees with me so I’m probably wrong

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:37 PM

#

Essentially it comes down to what rank you want.

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:38 PM

#

Yeah, I'd rather have people trying to optimize, even through min-maxing, than no one trying because something shitty puts them at V ery Poor

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:38 PM

#

But at the moment its pointless to optimize because if you want f.e. a simple marker, you immediately get very poor even if all other categories are well optimized.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:38 PM

#

Yeah I agree that sucks

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:38 PM

#

See.

#

Thats their issue

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:39 PM

#

But they really do have a huge bounding box

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:39 PM

#

Of course its different depending on what rating you want

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:39 PM

#

Just like they made an artificial category called collision check, instead of bounds. They could have a more reasonable category to rank against

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:39 PM

#

But at the moment it doesnt matter what ranking you want or how well you optimize because 1 category thats bad, instantly gives you very poor like f.e. with a marker

#

They dont have artificial categories

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

One thing I don't quite get is why colliders matter if we have collision count to begin with

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

Bounds and collissions are 2 different things.

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

For example multiplying the bounds by some other aspect

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

Idk

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

But there may be a reason for that since DB is actually something I'm still learning new things about

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

A lightweight avatar with huge bounds is clearly not what was intended. Or perhaps; allow a better way to have markers

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:41 PM

#

Colliders woudl probably be weighted fairly low since the collision count,as far as I know, is what matters.

#

Only using colliders to touch your ears? Thenyou've only got like 6 collisions at best

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:41 PM

#

Here's an example of the material count being a bit on the nose, i have 2 materials reused on the entire model but it accounts the total ones

📎 unknown.png

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:41 PM

#

@amber hemlock if there was, people would use it

#

Huh? O.o

karmic condor Dec 27, 2018, 7:42 PM

#

IMO dB components doesn’t need to be counted. Unless there is something I don’t know about

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:43 PM

#

@amber hemlock even so, the fact for having a lightweight avatar with f.e. 9/10 categories on green should allow for at least some compensation on other categories

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:43 PM

#

Inspecting the avatar with a second client

📎 unknown.png

heady smelt Dec 27, 2018, 7:44 PM

#

Lol

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:44 PM

#

Yeah Components and Colliders seem redundant when there's Transforms and Collision Count, but hopefully Tupper swoops in on this one hint hint

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:46 PM

#

There's only 1 thing i miss from 5.6.3p1, the double jumping due to the tiny lag it incurred

#

It was neat

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

I think I get it. I was just seeing dynamic bones as the only real source of lag

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

They're the main source, as far as avatars go

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

With any average being a way to min max a little bit more in

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

I've heard IK scripts outside of the main game's IK can be bad too

#

but they're pretty uncommon

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

IK is bad in general

#

Causes more lag than most realize

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:51 PM

#

IK is the main source of lag from what i recall, but nothing can be necessarily done about that

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:52 PM

#

They said they’re improving it. They intended to do it in the last update

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:52 PM

#

Mhm, it kind of went south, but hopefully it'll get improved

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:52 PM

#

Their network couldn’t support the load

#

So they’re improving it

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:53 PM

#

Yeah I think it was IK, on top of chairs constantly moving, on top of this scan actually scanning every time an avatar loads and not "applied" to the avatar on upload

#

out of those three, IK was most likely the worst offender by miles

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:53 PM

#

Oh correction on my part, nothing can be done about that by the user

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:54 PM

#

Yes they can. Block full body users lol

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:54 PM

#

Pfft

#

I mean, you're not wrong xD

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:54 PM

#

feelsbadman

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:54 PM

#

Once the IK is fixed we can go back to like 20+ users with next to no IK related lag

#

I'm still under the impression that, until we get an in-house DB script, the IK fix on the network is gonna be the last significant performance boost we'll see for a long time

#

Since there's not much else to improve on as far as FPS goes on their side

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

True

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

I mean in general lag applies to a lack to resources to maintain what is currently happening, so if the IK gets improved, lag will dissipate exponentially, even with DB's that otherwise would increment it alot

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

Im most excited about it

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

Hopefully it'll land nicely

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

Yeah, I couldn't care less about chairs or ranks or whatever

#

the IK was what I was looking forward to the second I saw those patch notes

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:56 PM

#

Yep

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:56 PM

#

I was more looking forward to stats personally, as i like knowing what's going on with my avatar, but the IK was certainly up there on my list

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:56 PM

#

Then I was disappointed

#

Rip Russians with bad internet tho

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:57 PM

#

Until then, Pumkin's unity tool works fairly well

#

the scan actually works lol

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 7:58 PM

#

I tried it but my visemes got fucked

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:58 PM

#

I could've sworn that instances when created were essentially p2p, so the "host" gets transferred to another user, sharing that users' network speed, i always thought that was the case since users managed to stay in worlds talking with other users without connection to the VRChat servers, or atleast the repository for their items such as worlds and avatars

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

Some things are host related I think, like streamed content

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

Instances still linger for a bit after everyone leaves though, so some of it is server-side

real orchid Dec 27, 2018, 8:02 PM

#

Be nice if u could host instances on your computer so you can have worlds that can remember users for leveling and stuff

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 8:15 PM

#

Block knuckle controller users excessive IK use :p /s

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 8:16 PM

#

Hmm, would it be IK since it's not skeletal data? I'm guessing that'll be an option but i think it would jsut be animations

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 8:17 PM

#

The ik fix made you go cross eyed for everyone instead of just you btw

mortal violet Dec 27, 2018, 8:40 PM

#

What does "Could not load type 'Unity Engine .XR .XRNode' From assembly 'Unity Engine" mean?

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 9:04 PM

#

Yeah that's actually what I was suggesting even though I knew it was impossible due to their vacation hiatus

#

Just remove ranks for now, and leave the numbers. They're at least somewhat accurate.

#

Once they're actually accurate, leaving them in makes much more sense since they're not false representation of optimization after they're weighted

#

The fact is a lot of people don't understand what some of the numbers in the Stats are and why they matter, and to what degree they matter, so the symbol is somewhat important, if it's correct.

sudden jewel Dec 27, 2018, 10:42 PM

#

@shut sequoia Redundant/extra/unneeded components have a non-zero performance impact, so that count will likely remain

#

@mortal violet You're probably using the wrong version of Unity. You need 2017.4.15f1

mortal violet Dec 27, 2018, 10:42 PM

#

oh .-.

#

ok thanks

shut sequoia Dec 27, 2018, 10:46 PM

#

;_; muh scripts

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 10:49 PM

#

https://forum.unity.com/threads/multiple-scripts-vs-single-script-performance-purpose.164942/

Unity Forum

Multiple scripts VS Single script (performance, purpose...)

Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify something about scripts on a gameobject, maybe some of you can answer or at least give me some hints about the reason...

sudden jewel Dec 27, 2018, 10:54 PM

#

That is too general purpose. You have to look at the code for DB.

#

Generally speaking, splitting up scripts to separate objects isn't a huge deal, but with DB, the cost is higher than it is with some random C# script.

marsh trail Dec 27, 2018, 10:55 PM

#

Then tests need to be done in that regard to acertain such

karmic condor Dec 27, 2018, 11:16 PM

#

I’ll take a look at the code and see what I can gleen. I only know pseudo code atm so probably not much

amber hemlock Dec 27, 2018, 11:53 PM

#

I like my green star. Don’t take away my green star D:

shut sequoia Dec 28, 2018, 12:09 AM

#

My cute hair is worth the medium

mortal violet Dec 28, 2018, 12:14 AM

#

i cant find Unity 2017.4.15f1

marsh trail Dec 28, 2018, 12:24 AM

#

@mortal violet
Direct DL Url (64bit)
https://download.unity3d.com/download_unity/5d485b4897a7/Windows64EditorInstaller/UnitySetup64-2017.4.15f1.exe

surreal topaz Dec 28, 2018, 12:44 AM

#

Is it actually true that DB has significant overhead per extra script?

#

I'm looking at the scripts right now and I cannot see any expensive stuff outside of the "for each dynamic bone:" loop

#

Everything before that is just setup, and everything inside that loop will be done roughly the same number of times total anyway, when comparing one root bone or individual strands.

shut sequoia Dec 28, 2018, 12:46 AM

#

It's not significant, it's just non-zero

#

~~so low weights on it?~~

surreal topaz Dec 28, 2018, 12:47 AM

#

Well it's nonzero, but Tupper was saying earlier that DB had more overhead compared to most other scripts

#

The only "overhead" I can see is the script checking if it's time to update already yes/no

#

In case of lower update rates

#

Well, it has some overhead for gravity checks for some reason, but these are all pretty cheap operations and they're O(1)

#

So it's the same relatively low cost for every script

amber hemlock Dec 28, 2018, 2:06 AM

#

With two scripts, you'd have two loops going, wouldn't you? How expensive is each iteration of the loop?

#

I thought it was the colliders that multiply the overhead, not the actual script

distant forge Dec 28, 2018, 3:09 AM

#

You can often put the db scripts one level up and exclude like 90% of the children like put it on head and exclude all the eyes ears etc

#

I'm able to keep the scripts down to 4 on most things I tried though on one or two I had to cut out a piece of clothing because it wasn't in the right part of the heirarchy

#

Also it wastes a transform because the head counts as a transform even though I don't intend it to move

sweet mason Dec 28, 2018, 3:36 AM

#

can we pin the link to the model chart ?

ancient crystal Dec 28, 2018, 4:12 AM

#

the colliders arent too much overhead

#

each dynamic bone script goes down the bone chain

#

calculates a few things based on colliders iteratively, stiffness, and radial distance

#

and also simulates spring forces

#

but if u have like

#

4 colliders

#

that means every bone in the chain is gonna handle 4 colliders

#

or at least check them

marsh trail Dec 28, 2018, 4:35 AM

#

I mean the same calculations are going to be done (to an extent) with multiple scripts (that is a script per root of chain not multiple scripts per chain), and will infact be far more reliable (aesthetically/functionally speaking) rather than a singular root as dynamics bones pivot based on the root bone, having a single one limits a users' freedom for using DB in general as they're mostly restricted to some set values as the single pivot can't deal with all of the possible angles the same way

#

Some actual testing between single root and multiple roots should be done to actually acertain if it actually causes any sort of reasonable frame dropoff to well, have such a bad fame of being done as it's adding more components into it

tired badger Dec 28, 2018, 7:10 AM

#

Started working on a new optimized Pen today. Works and uses way less vertices than a trail render. Issue is it required me to use a fixed joint/rigid body. Meaning my Excellent went to Medium but that's still better than the Snail Marker's Bounding box.

#

I have a few other ideas to play with and will see what comes out of it

echo snow Dec 28, 2018, 7:12 AM

#

Medium is still pretty decent for high end computers.

#

At least from my informal testing.

sweet mason Dec 28, 2018, 9:25 AM

#

Why more then a controler drop to good🤔

shut sequoia Dec 28, 2018, 10:00 AM

#

Medium is alright, Good is more of a goal while Excellent is a fancy little goldstar

heady smelt Dec 28, 2018, 11:07 AM

#

i cant make girl avatars so i will ask can somebody that want it make a girl avatar for me?

surreal topaz Dec 28, 2018, 2:03 PM

#

They should change medium's name/icon to be less harsh maybe lol

#

Since it seems to confuse a few people

calm spade Dec 28, 2018, 3:07 PM

#

@heady smelt If you have a budget, join the VRC Traders discord in #community-servers-old

#

No one here will make you anything for free

misty cypress Dec 28, 2018, 3:15 PM

#

I finally did an atlas! Now I'm optimized!

📎 unknown.png

heady smelt Dec 28, 2018, 5:29 PM

#

how do i go about combining these pesky skinned mesh renderers?

heady smelt Dec 28, 2018, 5:47 PM

#

ah nvm got it

tough warren Dec 28, 2018, 6:45 PM

#

i wish the CATS texture atlaser would atlas diffuse and normal maps at the same time

karmic condor Dec 28, 2018, 6:48 PM

#

I do too

surreal topaz Dec 28, 2018, 6:48 PM

#

@tough warren it does

#

🤔

#

You might wanna update

karmic condor Dec 28, 2018, 6:48 PM

#

Pmx files don’t use those kinds maps 😭

surreal topaz Dec 28, 2018, 6:48 PM

#

Update material combiner and Cats

tough warren Dec 28, 2018, 6:49 PM

#

cats supports xps and smd as well as mmd

#

its not just for weeb models

karmic condor Dec 28, 2018, 6:49 PM

#

I am a weeb though

tough warren Dec 28, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

@surreal topaz just updated, it definitely only combines the diffuse textures, to get normals you have to re-open the saved blend file and delete the diffuse and set normal maps to be diffuse

surreal topaz Dec 28, 2018, 6:58 PM

#

You might have to use material combiner itself rather than going through Cats

fervent lintel Dec 28, 2018, 7:41 PM

#

While it takes longer hand atlasing will usually give you a higher overall quality, especially around the eyes and such

#

Unless cats really overhauled their automatic atlasing recently

ancient crystal Dec 28, 2018, 8:31 PM

#

yea i got mad when the combiner did that too

#

but apparently all the images keep their resolution

#

so i could just copy and paste the normal maps into the atlas

#

and save a copy

#

but yea there need 2 be better way

sudden zodiac Dec 28, 2018, 9:59 PM

#

@fervent lintel Cats uses a new atlas tool now, it's so much better. You should try it out

fervent lintel Dec 28, 2018, 10:00 PM

#

Is it the equivalent of hand doing it now? I use cats for most stuff but I like the fine tunability of atlasing by hand

#

@sudden zodiac

sudden zodiac Dec 28, 2018, 10:00 PM

#

Pretty much equivalent

#

Some things can and will still improve

amber hemlock Dec 28, 2018, 10:08 PM

#

Cats automatic atlas is lossless iirc

#

Except for Textures that loop over their bounds or are very close to the edge of the Textere. They may bleed into the adjacent Texture

#

But technically they were already bleeding over to the other side of the texture

ancient crystal Dec 28, 2018, 10:45 PM

#

yea the current atlas tool is a lot different

#

the old atlas tool would bake all the diffuse to a texture

#

more reliable but u couldnt do it on a per material basis

#

the new atlas tool just maps all the uvs and images to different sections in a transparent texture

#

it also makes the uvs/textures neater than random unwrapped mess

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 1:16 AM

#

how transform are calculated ?

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 1:16 AM

#

In terms of dynamic bones?

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 1:16 AM

#

yes

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 1:16 AM

#

it's how many bones are animating due to dynamic bone scripts

#

if you put them low level, all their children will be animated and the count will go way up. put them only where needed and add exceptions for stuff that doesn't need to be animated to keep the effected amount of bones as low as needed.

#

Also, if a chain doesn't really need to move from it's parent, consider merging bones in blender.

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 1:18 AM

#

just look at the script for it

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 1:18 AM

#

not everyone can read C#

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 1:19 AM

#

yea but he asked how theyre calculated

#

its calculated in the script

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 1:19 AM

#

you can explain that in english

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 1:19 AM

#

yea but its spring physics and simulated forces/collision

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 1:20 AM

#

I'm fairly sure he was asking how the "dynamic bone effected transforms" category of the avatar ranking system is calculated

#

not how the DN bone script works 😛

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 1:45 AM

#

transforms are how many bones the script is considered to be affecting

#

https://puu.sh/CoyGo/4acb1e4b39.png

#

So if each color is one script, it (should?) work like this

#

Red is affecting 5 Bones, Blue is affected 4 Bones, and Green is affecting 3 Bones, so total you've got 12 transforms.

#

Lots of transforms = Bad since dynamic bones are the biggest influence players have on frames

short cave Dec 29, 2018, 2:02 AM

#

I made a video on fixing some texture issues and some other issues people may run into when merging textures https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGg3fd98T1k hope its helpful

YouTube

Kazari da editor

Fix weird texture colors and other issues | VRChat Avatars

YES I know there is some mic noises caused by my phone on the table. Sorry I was not about to rerecord a hour of work just for like 10 sec of bad audio

▶ Play video

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 2:12 AM

#

also actually it affects any bone with a following bone afaik

#

unless u use end length

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:27 AM

#

You're never gonna want a script on every bone though @shut sequoia

#

Only on the root bone, once

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:28 AM

#

why

#

i do it for my hair cause it looks nice

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:28 AM

#

Uhm

#

So you have a script for every bone?

#

As in

#

Every bone down?

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:28 AM

#

13 bones per pigtail, 1 per bone lol

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:29 AM

#

Wtf

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:29 AM

#

not something i use in public since its a billion transforms

#

lik 190 total for the avatar

#

but the hair is cute

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:29 AM

#

Use curves TupperHands

#

That's what they're made for

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:29 AM

#

:0 oh is that what that does

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:29 AM

#

If you have 13 bones per pigtail, you can get it down to 13-14 transforms total and keep the same effect

#

By just having one script

#

Yeah, curves can alter the dynamic bone values the further up/down you get

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:30 AM

#

oh well shit

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:30 AM

#

So in this case, I'm assuming you want less inert and less stiffness as it goes further down to get the same effect

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:30 AM

#

i couldve been doing that this whole time

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:30 AM

#

Yep lol

#

And curves don't matter for performance either

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:35 AM

#

oh damn, literally just make a line diagonally down and its the same

#

Oh wait maybe not, it's kinda weird

#

ohwell, i'll mess with that and test it in vr later

surreal topaz Dec 29, 2018, 2:39 AM

#

It might take some fiddling, and I'm willing to bet you also need to draw a line like that for elasticity

#

Starting at like 0.1 and going down to 0.01

#

You can right click a key in the curve editor to change the values more precisely

#

In case the editor freaks out or you need precision

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 2:43 AM

#

you can also right click

#

to separate both tangents

marsh trail Dec 29, 2018, 2:45 AM

#

Actually, curves are indeed effective for those general purposes, doing on a per-bone basis does give you far more control over the entire chain as a whole (as every value is editable without a varying curve that may or may not apply to them properly at any given time) but i consider that going a bit overkill

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:46 AM

#

yeah 26 bones with their own scripts is 100% overkill

marsh trail Dec 29, 2018, 2:46 AM

#

It can be used of course, just like everything, but it is indeed a bit over the top haha

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 2:47 AM

#

All I really do is put the inert in descending order from .9 to like .2, and the curve does that so i'm just uploading one as a test

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 2:50 AM

#

i almost never use curve tho

#

only for stiffness when doing stationary root jiggles

distant forge Dec 29, 2018, 3:00 AM

#

Also you can go at a higher level and exclude a lot of stuff but you can't exclude anything in the chain to get there. For example I put dynbone on head and exclude almost everything and it will count Head, Root_Hair and Hair_1 etc compared to putting it directly on the hair

#

However I never knew about curves. How do you set up curves?

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 3:01 AM

#

click on the box beside

distant forge Dec 29, 2018, 3:03 AM

#

Omg how have I never seen that box. Gotta do some experimenting

swift crow Dec 29, 2018, 3:04 AM

#

im having an issue whit the spine and i dont know how to fix it

📎 unknown.png

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 3:05 AM

#

if you read in cats plugin when you apply full ik it tell you no not wory about the warning

swift crow Dec 29, 2018, 3:06 AM

#

ive uploaded this avatar before and i didnt have this issue with this avatar before the new unity update

safe swift Dec 29, 2018, 3:07 AM

#

@swift crow u can ignore the warning

swift crow Dec 29, 2018, 3:07 AM

#

it wont let me upload it.

safe swift Dec 29, 2018, 3:07 AM

#

that is not true, screenshot of your error, because you can 100% upload with spine = 0

swift crow Dec 29, 2018, 3:08 AM

#

📎 unknown.png

#

it wont let me click the button

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 3:09 AM

#

other error ?

safe swift Dec 29, 2018, 3:09 AM

#

aren't your legs connected to your hips? straight? and yes, what is the other error

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 3:09 AM

#

oh

#

update you sdk

swift crow Dec 29, 2018, 3:10 AM

#

oh...

#

thank you

last pollen Dec 29, 2018, 3:46 AM

#

is my model optimized enough? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/277632761496469516/528418350309834752/unknown.png

#

📎 unknown.png

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

yes

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

how do i refresh the sdk to show the proper amount of dynhamic bone components/

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

press arrow in top left

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

Hm, not working

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

idk if sdk can detect transforms and stuff

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 3:48 AM

#

https://i.imgur.com/tqytwZe.png

Imgur

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 3:48 AM

#

always doesnt show my dynamic bone counts

#

but basically

#

amount of bones in the chains is transforms

#

and checks is transforms * colliders per

#

but idk y it doesnt show

vestal lark Dec 29, 2018, 5:12 AM

#

can i get some help in 3d modeling please i need help with automatic weight painting

last pollen Dec 29, 2018, 5:21 AM

#

📎 autorig.gif

#

click on gif if it's messed up

tender sundial Dec 29, 2018, 7:29 AM

#

you can get zero poly

#

and of course dynamic bone counts show zero because https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/sdk-avatar-performance-reports-always-report-dynamic-bone-counts-as-0

sweet mason Dec 29, 2018, 10:26 AM

#

you can have o polygone

tough warren Dec 29, 2018, 2:54 PM

#

yeah it's called disabling the mesh renderer

echo snow Dec 29, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

555,000 triangles. 90 bones. Time to add Dynamic Bone on it. :O

tough warren Dec 29, 2018, 7:07 PM

#

Does the public world bot detect deactivated objects on an avatar? Because the optimization stats ingame dont

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

it does from what i've seen

vestal lark Dec 29, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

Okay so i did automatic weight paint for clothing i put on a model but parts of it are moving i dont want to move when the chest bones move. when i go to weight paint mode the entire piece of clothing is blue what the heck am i supposed to do?

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/283295739369619456/528662587722825731/unknown.png

#

come to think of it the entire model seems to be blue?

#

but it moves just fine in vrchat am i doing something wrong? am i supposed to select bones in weight paint mode? because i cant find a way to do so clicking wont work neither will shift clicking

#

?

#

anyone?

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 8:03 PM

#

i don't think bumping your post is going to bring in any more people who know. if someone reading knew, they would've answered...

vestal lark Dec 29, 2018, 8:03 PM

#

k i feel like it has before though ive done the same thing and someone answers

shut sequoia Dec 29, 2018, 8:05 PM

#

your best bet honestly is finding a weight painting guide on youtube

austere sand Dec 29, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

@vestal lark So.

#

Basically blender weight paints.

vestal lark Dec 29, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

i got it

austere sand Dec 29, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

K

vestal lark Dec 29, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

i coudlnt figure out how to select bones properly in weight paint mode

#

that was why everything was blue dopy dee dopy dye

austere sand Dec 29, 2018, 8:20 PM

#

Nice

#

The real fun begins when you have to fix bone structure in custom models 😃

last pollen Dec 29, 2018, 9:07 PM

#

is edge splitting models efficient? i have this bean can model im going to use and i gave it edge splits to make the normals more sharp, but i dont know if it's a good idea

📎 unknown.png

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 9:41 PM

#

Edge splits shouldn't be necessary, you can have hard edges even with a smooth UV

versed nest Dec 29, 2018, 9:41 PM

#

Can't you use the auto smooth and set a degree?

last pollen Dec 29, 2018, 9:41 PM

#

well i use auto smooth if it's 100% needed

#

if not, i manually do it

#

also, if i didnt use edge splits it would look like this, which imo looks ugly

📎 unknown.png

versed nest Dec 29, 2018, 9:43 PM

#

Hmm, in edit mode you can select some edge loops and ctrl e to mark sharp

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 9:43 PM

#

You can use split normals instead of a edge split modifier

#

avoids making extra edges

versed nest Dec 29, 2018, 9:44 PM

#

I believe it was alt click to select a loop

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 9:44 PM

#

the object will still have a seamless UV

last pollen Dec 29, 2018, 9:45 PM

#

no i dont edge split with the modifier i literally just click a group of faces and split them

amber hemlock Dec 29, 2018, 9:46 PM

#

Erm. I think if you remove doubles afterward the result is the same regardless

#

you just end up with split normals

versed nest Dec 29, 2018, 9:47 PM

#

Yeah, I think marking the edges as sharp would be a better option

#

But I think you have to have auto smooth on for it to show

last pollen Dec 29, 2018, 9:47 PM

#

thnk

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 10:00 PM

#

do not do auto weight paint for clothing

#

if there is skin

#

again use transfer weights

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:39 PM

#

hi, is the proper solution to be able to select Shaders when using an Atlas map to set the .fbx to external materials mode?

#

cause it just kinda makes it turn purple when I try to select a shader after that >_>

#

oh wow just realized after updating sdk and stuff all my textures are purple now... oof

#

are cubeds shaders busted?

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

they work fine

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

hmm all my models that use it are purple now

#

after upgrading

ancient crystal Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

restart unity if u didnt already

#

and try remapping textures

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

yeah I did, same

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

do you have cubed's shaders in your project?

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

yeah

#

i reimported it too

#

the latest

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

does the console give you compile errors?

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:44 PM

#

ah yep sure does

#

failed to open souce file hmmm

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:44 PM

#

I know it doesn't like the 'tests' folder of post processing stack v2

#

but cubed's shaders still work and compile fine in 2017

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:44 PM

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Shader error in 'CubedParadox/Flat Lit Toon Lite': failed to open source file: '..\CGIncludes\FlatLitToonShadows.cginc' at line 143 (on d3d11)

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guess ill try installing once again lol

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:44 PM

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yeah grab the latest version too https://github.com/cubedparadox/Cubeds-Unity-Shaders/releases

GitHub

cubedparadox/Cubeds-Unity-Shaders

A compilation of custom shaders for Unity3D. Contribute to cubedparadox/Cubeds-Unity-Shaders development by creating an account on GitHub.

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:45 PM

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yeah just did

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ill try

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hmmm no bueno

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:46 PM

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is the path to the cginclude inside cubed's shaders' folders?

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:46 PM

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doesnt appear to be

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i have the file but not in that heirarchy

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:48 PM

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ah, might be an older version of the shader floating around in your project

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:48 PM

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any way to force overwrite the package contents?

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:48 PM

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pointing to a file that was moved in a newer version

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you can delete the folder

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and reimport

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:49 PM

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ah yeah that did the trick on the import window

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:49 PM

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but yoiu might have an older copy somewhere else in the project

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:49 PM

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lets try that

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do you know the answer to my previous question about the atlas mapping?

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nope that fixed it, thanks 😉

heady smelt Dec 29, 2018, 11:50 PM

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that should fix the first question too

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ah good

pseudo ridge Dec 29, 2018, 11:50 PM

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ok cool

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:07 AM

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does gravity on dynamic bones only affect the first joint?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:08 AM

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Use force instead of gravity, gravity seems to not function properly

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:09 AM

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i have some force as well

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only seems to bend the first bone

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:09 AM

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It should bend all of the bones in the chain

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Or well, the first bone, and then the rest follow suit

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:09 AM

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when i tilt the head forward the pony tails stills kinda stick out straight

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i can see the connecting bone of the ponytail flex down towards Y though

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:11 AM

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Try these values as a test http://prntscr.com/m168rr

Lightshot

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:11 AM

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ill give them a whack

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:11 AM

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Use it in play mode so it doesn't actually save it

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That way you don't need to revert everything

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:12 AM

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oof its a little too intense

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yeah i am thanks

main horizon Dec 30, 2018, 12:12 AM

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Oh hey, that's what I use for my ponytail too!

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:12 AM

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that pulls it down through the body

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my settings were pretty similar on another avatar heh

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to those ^

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:13 AM

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I'm using them for wires so they jump quite a bit

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May need quite a bit of tweakin, but will probably give you a good reference

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:14 AM

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hmmm

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tilt the head forward and the hair still kinda sticks out backwards

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maybe something i just have to live with

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:15 AM

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Huh

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Here's the wires

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https://gyazo.com/beaa04f0894825f32b87f161eacc2f6f

Gyazo

▶ Play video

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Not too sure why yours is sticking backwards, are you using a single root for it all perhaps?

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:27 AM

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single root?

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im using the head as root bone

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is there a way to make dynamic bone spheres link the space between ?

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like how colliders can be extended?

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so it cant clip through between spheres on arms and stuff?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:29 AM

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Dynamic bones is more of a simulation than an accurate collision based script, so collisions will for the most part always look choppy, even when multiple colliders are used (which they shouldn't, gotta say that before somebody drop kicks in)

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:30 AM

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i have a capsule collider on both arms

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and the long hair gets "stuck" on the arms and hangs over and it looks great

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but it can slip through the collider if the hair colliders have a gap between the spheres

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:31 AM

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Mhm

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:31 AM

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no way for it to simulate a collision space between the dynamic bones?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:31 AM

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Not that i know of, aside adding even more, in which there'll still be gaps between

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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ah nah, dont wanna do that to potato people lol

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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Eyup

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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so hey my arms are really long on my avatar and they are not bending all the way they wont go straight no matter what height setting i choose. how do i fix this?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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FullBody?

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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no

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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Just arms?

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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vinny i dont think you can if they arent proportionate?

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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just arms

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:32 AM

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i could be wrong

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:33 AM

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They need to be proportionally accurate to your own to bend properly

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:33 AM

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hmm that sucks .

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:33 AM

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If your arms are shorter, it'll bend even with your arms extended, if they're longer, it'll stretch them out even if you bend them

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:33 AM

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i get no errors when uploading either

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:33 AM

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That sorta deal

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:34 AM

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most miku models are pretty accurate

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but when you get into custom models things get hairy

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:34 AM

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this isnt mmd

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:34 AM

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Well you could try to shorten/lenghten the arms a bit to test

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 AM

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/283295739369619456/528732705207222272/unknown.png

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 AM

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Unless it's extremely detailed, you won't really notice much

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 AM

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how would i do that

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 AM

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Oh is that fran?

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 AM

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yeah i put her in a virgin killer sweater

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:35 AM

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Neat

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I think you can possibly just do that in pose mode in blender

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Then you can set the pose to be the resting pose

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Which makes it so that that's the original shape of the model

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:36 AM

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how would i shorten the arms ive had to edit in blender and reimport and re assign all dynamic bones over 6 times now

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do i have to go back to blender again

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:36 AM

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You do it in pose mode

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And yes

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:37 AM

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sorry i was busy typeing i didnt see the messages

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:37 AM

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it would look weird vinny

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if you do that

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:37 AM

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i figured that

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:37 AM

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It won't look like the greatest thing in the world that's for sure

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But it's a simple fix to an otherwise complex issue

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:38 AM

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i wish they would put fran in dissidia nt

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so we have a updated fran model

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:38 AM

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what is this new bounding box error in the build control panel

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:38 AM

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Pretty sure there's viera models out there... probably not fran specifically, but something you could probably setup

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:38 AM

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or someone completely remodel it and make a high poly version but no one that has done that before has released there model ive tired contacting them but they dont respond

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:39 AM

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why does it think my avatars bounding box is gigantic

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:40 AM

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Probably a broken shapekey

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:41 AM

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is that an issue?

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(that needs to be corrected) ?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:42 AM

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Yeah, otherwise your model won't react to light in maps all that well

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Especially if the shapekey is absolutely huge

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:42 AM

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hmmm wonder how to identify it

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:42 AM

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Since it'll try to apply lighting onto your model based on the location

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Which will be everywhere

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:43 AM

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haha

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:43 AM

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You just gotta go through it, one by one in either unity or blender

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:43 AM

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i mean how do i see the bounding size

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:43 AM

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Also, if your model has any spawnable items, in the sense of shapekeys, you'll need to check if they're in the middle of nowhere

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:43 AM

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nah no spawnables on this one

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:44 AM

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No hair changes, clothe swaps, glasses, hats y'know?

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Hell, even facial emotes could be anywhere but the head for whatever reason

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:45 AM

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the god damn shirt cuffs arent weight painted right >_<

vestal lark Dec 30, 2018, 12:45 AM

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dam ff xiv i have to wait till this summer to make my viera character

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:45 AM

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nah straight mmd model

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i decimated a few pieces but thats it

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:45 AM

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Hmm...

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You'll need to go ahead and check each shapekey one by one then

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If no shapekeys are causing it, which you can test by deleting them all, re-exporting, checking bounds, then it might be a stray mesh or bone

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:48 AM

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so slide the shape keys and see if it makes a huge uh

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thing

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?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:50 AM

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Mhm, for the most part that's how you find ehm

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:52 AM

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doesnt look like a shape key

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dont see a stray bone

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:53 AM

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Try deleting ehm all and re-export, if the bounds stay the same then it's something else

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If the bounds return to average values, get all the shapekeys back and literally start deleting and exporting in batches of 10 shapekeys

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When the bounds return to normal, you'll have found the batch of 10 possible bad shapekeys

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:54 AM

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yeah same error with zero shape keys

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:55 AM

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Then it's definitively something other than a shapekey, here's a way to sorta figure it out aswell

still perch Dec 30, 2018, 12:55 AM

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do you use a pen cirThink

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:55 AM

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Go into edit mode, and select everything you can actually see, start with meshes, and press H to hide everything you've selected

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:55 AM

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nah no attached items

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:56 AM

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After every mesh in view is hidden, press A to select everything and X to delete

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Everything that is hidden will be safe, and you can afterwards press alt+h to unhide it all

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:56 AM

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seperate meshes first?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:56 AM

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Shouldn't be necessary

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:56 AM

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that just hides everything

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since i cant individually select

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:56 AM

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You can

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:57 AM

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im using an Atlas

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would that cause it?

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:57 AM

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You go into edit mode, and then you either press C for the brush selection tool or B for a box selection tool

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And no, atlas' don't mess with bounds

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Then after selecting what you can see, press H to hide

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If anything is left in the center, keep repeating it

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When nothing else is visible, press A to select everything and press X to delete it

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Afterwards press alt+H to unhide everything again, and exit edit mode

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Export the model again, if it still has issues, do the same for the bones now

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This will guarantee that anything that you can't see, gets removed

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 12:59 AM

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ok i just have some bones left now

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 12:59 AM

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What do you mean?

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Oh nvm, you're seeing the bones whilst in edit mode on the mesh right?

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 1:00 AM

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oh was selecting meshes

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yeah

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 1:00 AM

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Aight, go ahead and follow my steps and it'll go through without issue

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This should get it all fixed up

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 1:00 AM

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delete is asking me for edges/faces/etc.

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 1:00 AM

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Edges

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Actually

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Vertices

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My bad

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 1:01 AM

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hmm looks like something may have been floating out in space

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or i missed something tiny lol

marsh trail Dec 30, 2018, 1:02 AM

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So the bounds are all fixed up?

pseudo ridge Dec 30, 2018, 1:02 AM

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that totally did it yeah