So now I don't hide rank anymore
#avatar-optimization
surreal topaz
visual tinsel
You're Rokk in game yeah?
surreal topaz
Yes
visual tinsel
I think i've only seen your avatar(s?) around.
heady smelt
are you premptively blocking him now? đ
surreal topaz
Lmao
visual tinsel
ha ha ha. shit
worn lantern
Lol
mossy solar
nuked right down to 57 bones =_=
shut sequoia
đŹ congrats
i knocked my old avatar's hair down to like 40, but figuring out this weight painting skirt shit is driving me crazy
i'm so close to using cloth but, but now I just want to figure this out out of pure spite
mossy solar
I only have the basic skeleton on the model
outside the jawbone which mmd models don't have
even removed the tongue bones
surreal topaz
I have not bothered removing "unused" bones, I doubt it has that much of an impact
I rarely have too many extra bones anyway, usually just something like an unused sleeve bone or whatever
gleaming yacht
So the unused bones are never ever calculated?
mossy solar
they are in a sense
gleaming yacht
If they are calculated they have an impact
polar bolt
They are
worn lantern
I should probably mix around the bones and weights in Project Mirai models then
Even for 3DS models, those things are super complicated
mossy solar
but you have to have a crapton of those type of bones for it to be an issue
like 300
surreal topaz
MMD models can probably hit 300 easily lmao
gleaming yacht
I see, so if 3 people have 100 there is a crap ton extra.
Or 12 with 25
surreal topaz
One of mine had 140 bones in the dress alone
worn lantern
Are you proposing that it has to be like 300 twist bones in the arm or a specific part of the body or 300 bones in general
surreal topaz
And they used to all be dynamic
300 twist bones sounds like an average valve rig alright
worn lantern
LOL
That's an example I'm proposing I'm not actually serious
Im just saying
To what extreme would it really be too much
mossy solar
the source engine is optimized AF though
worn lantern
Meanwhile Unity is Unity
visual tinsel
Unused bones are still skinned IIRC.
polar bolt
Needs isolated performance profiling as this is all guesswork. Theoretically, it does bog down perfomance, but it's still empty words without actual timing numbers
worn lantern
Doesn't help that the content created for VRChat is user-created
visual tinsel
So in theory it does have a performance hit.
worn lantern
As in, nothing in this game blends together, nothing in this game is inherently "meant" for this game
mossy solar
the devs probably could've used UE4 but it's harder for the average joe to make stuff for it and the devs have to have the game on the epic launcher for it to be free
but then it would be harder to set it up for mulitple vr setups
worn lantern
How long ago did we step over the line for #general-media territory?
visual tinsel
Ruuubick hasn't noticed yet, so we good until then. đ
worn lantern
Lmao
amber hemlock
A few people who are still learning will get blocked for having unoptimized avatars sure but they can always make a new account once they get better for a fresh start.
/s
lean kindle
people rag on unity too much
worn lantern
The thing is Adeon
When people make enough friends on one account, it's already too late
ancient willow
Just dont make friends
heady smelt
Lol
amber hemlock
I am generally being cynical, sarcastic, and unhelpful to the conversation, donât worry eevee
amber hemlock
What color star do you get for the most optimized avatar
heady smelt
I gotta optimize alot if my avatars though
heady smelt
Lowest?
worn lantern
Red star
amber hemlock
Aka best
worn lantern
For lowest
heady smelt
Middle?
worn lantern
Idk
amber hemlock
Oh dang I want a red star
heady smelt
I want a Black Star
amber hemlock
How many verts do I have to add to get red star
heady smelt
Really why?
amber hemlock
Itâs my fav color
mossy solar
if you got a single collider you get smacked to red
amber hemlock
Cool cool
heady smelt
One of my models has like 15 so lol
worn lantern
Audio is apparently one of the things that will count toward the avatar optimization thing to yell at you
heady smelt
Really?
wicked void
Colliders literally double the amount of checks every pass if i rememeber right, so it should do that, lol
mossy solar
audio is kinda like draw calls too
worn lantern
"Kinda"
visual tinsel
You're limited to 3 audio sources playing at a time anyway.
heady smelt
Never knew that
amber hemlock
I have micro optimized my avatar to be efficient at everything except polycount . No colliders, 1 texture, no sounds etc . Still getting slapped with red tho
worn lantern
But my question still stands
Does it count as a call only on awake
Or does it persist
heady smelt
Hmmm?mmmm
mossy solar
very good on everything on this avatar I set up
worn lantern
Actually nvm it should persist I remember a friend of mine with an avatar with literally 500 sources
And it continues to lag
heady smelt
I got like 220 models and gotta optimize like 140 of them
gleaming yacht
That's still a lot of stuff to block/prevent from playing
heady smelt
Yikes most are in my avatar world
worn lantern
which got taken down
heady smelt
And I do want my world to be public so
amber hemlock
Just gonna delete everything that is considered poor and start fresh
heady smelt
I gotta optimize
worn lantern
If I did that Adeon I would have so many to look through
amber hemlock
I wish we had avatar folders
worn lantern
And delete
heady smelt
Yeah
worn lantern
Also I would probably fill up a lot of slots on my account again when I delete a bunch
With like
amber hemlock
So people who favorited stuff donât get sad face
heady smelt
I have like all of the jojo models in existence in which when you RIP the models from the game files usually come with 4 meshes right
heady smelt
Back then when I made most of my avatars I didn't combine the meshes
Cause just in case I wanted to fix weight painting
Now that screwed me in the long run
worn lantern
At least you aren't a CK in denial
heady smelt
Lol I still love ck
shut sequoia
unless these numbers change im just gonna ride out on the redstar too
maybe make a little meme avatar, been meaning to make a new dress texture
heady smelt
Don't want people blocking my avatars so
shut sequoia
understandable. my shader fallback doesn't work properly so i already look weird to people. i dont mind them not seeing me lol
polar bolt
*Looks at avatars' fallback texture with sad smiley and 'Shaders disabled' written*
visual tinsel
I used to have a mesh showing if you disabled my shaders, it said "Blocking shaders is bad and you should feel bad"
lean relic
why can't move fingers on animation
worn lantern
I have an audio clip that's just Miku telling you to enable my animations if you disable them for my trust rank
"If you can hear this, you have LoneEevee' s animations disabled. Please turn them on now, you big gay."
- Hatsune Miku, 2018
lean relic
help why can't move fingers on animation
polar bolt
James, you need to animate muscle values instead of the bones themselves. Also that cahnnel
worn lantern
I think he's having trouble with Muscle Animation Editor probably
The version that's been passed around is outdated
Is that correct, James?
Or am I completely wrong
lean relic
yes
worn lantern
Uh am I right?
surreal topaz
@worn lantern lmao
Playing audio if animations are disabled
What if they disable audio though
surreal topaz
I have a capsule around my avatar that tells you to unblock shaders if you wanna see it since it looks weird otherwise
worn lantern
I'll have a mesh now that I think about it
lean relic
i have update Muscle Animation Editor
worn lantern
@surreal topaz My idea now that I think about it, if people block animations, audio, if they block audio AND animations, a mesh will appear which is just text.
surreal topaz
Lol
worn lantern
Asking why you have Trusted users blocked so harshly
surreal topaz
Yeah, there's always ways to do that stuff
worn lantern
Oh I have the idea
tough warren
if you set up the standard shader on your avatar before moving on to cubed/whatever shader you plan on using it should look normal
surreal topaz
That's a good idea lol but I don't think you can base something on the presence of audio
lean relic
i have reinstall Muscle Animation Editor
worn lantern
Did you buy the asset?
lean relic
no
lean relic
i know
ok just delete Muscle Animation Editor file
huh. why not move fingers
????
surreal topaz
You need to add the animator properties, you cannot rotate finger bones directly
You have to Add Property->Animator->Left Index finger stretch etc.
lean relic
i think unity is bugging
that why
i move the fingers
why preview is on
how preview turn off
amber hemlock
If you did blended toon shaders rename it to standard to avoid it falling back to unlit
And rename the ramp parameter to something without ramp in its name so it doesnât deduce itâs a toon shader
(Really standard should be the fallback for blended toon, more than unlit)
tired badger
37k tris, 8 Dynamic bone transforms, subsurface scattering, micropores, translucency mapping, iris rendering. no colliders.
should rank as GOOD but it has 4 dynamic bone script components cause hair/chest/left and right leg
sadboihours
amber hemlock
Yeah it should have a weighted score
Bad in only one category should not make it bad
Collider/material should have more weight
lean relic
@amber hemlock help why i click recording and but preview is turn on?
amber hemlock
That would cause people to min/max their avatars but still lead to less laggy avatars overall
@lean relic I donât know sorry
tired badger
oh ya it's 4 material.
wicked void
I dont think that should be how it works. If you want custom content in the game, then those uploading should be responsible for the optimization of every aspect of the content they upload. Different aspects are judged by different numbers, and those numbers are fairly leaniant. If the whole avatar is super optimized except material count, that avatar should not get the star saying its optimized, becasue the material count contradicts that. By judging the model by the lowest score, you ensure that people are trying to optimize every aspect, and not just skipping the ones that dont carry as much weight.
tough warren
optimization isn't even hard, the documentation they wrote is pretty easy to follow
wicked void
^
tough warren
i could understand the salt if you own an avatar worlds and you had previously made hundreds of unoptimized avatars that now have to be reworked though
wicked void
Yeah, but tbh its for the greater good. Its a change that may hurt a tad initially, but help loads more in the long run.
tough warren
it had gotten to the point where i couldn't even go in public lobbies because of all the lag
wicked void
It will help educate your average joe on what really impacts performance as well.
tough warren
low framerates are one thing on desktop but in vr they make things horrible
heady smelt
in vr low framerates literally make you sick/get headaches after a couple of minutes
differs per person but that's why people are extra focused on avoiding it
queen zinc
Yeah, I mean with CATS there's really no excuse to not optimize
smoky lantern
All the interesting or unique avatars will rank "poor" because they're taking advantage of systems in clever ways. VRC will say that it's unoptimized.
There's a way to do one thing or another that's optimal and a way to do those same things that isn't. For example, the blendshape shader requires a light source, even if it's 0 across all settings. That'd make that user the lowest level? Stifling.
Just one example.
Toggle props.
Toggling ongoing animations.
tender sundial
in contrast you could totally make an avatar without even a skinned mesh renderer and with no dynamic stuff other than one very badly-performing shader
smoky lantern
IK magic.
tender sundial
immediate best performance rating
smoky lantern
It's going to be like cameras; you need to add anyone that you want to show something interesting to.
Tough days to be an innovator.
shut sequoia
I mean they can just hit "Show Avatar"
proud tulip
smoky lantern
Unless they have to change their settings every time like the trust system.
Can't just inspect>show shader or inspect>show particles.
amber hemlock
The current logic counts you by your worst category. Great, highly optimized avatars that fail a singe category are bad, and if you are bad, you might as well use all the features and not optimize, you wonât be rated any worse for it.
Itâs not conductive to encouraging optimization
Red is red
tough warren
so what you are saying is each category should be given a numerical value based on how much it effects performance and then the average of those gives you your score?
worn lantern
Same here
My trainer avatar is 12 materials luhmaou
Even if I atlas, he's gonna be 4
Because of the eyes
And the fact that I still need materials for the eyes to blink
tough warren
4 is still 3 times better than 12
amber hemlock
You can atlas the whole avatar and still have it blink, you just increase the texture memory by making 4 more textures of your entire atlas
but VRC will say it's better so... do it.
tough warren
texture memory is practically free on modern gpus
worn lantern
Adeon knows I'm about the audio too
tough warren
but drawcalls are not free
lean kindle
yeah a bigger texture isn't gonna do that much
worn lantern
My trainer Elio will instantly be red
The giant thunderclap in the Dance Moves emote
13 audio sources
tough warren
hold up i have a thought
amber hemlock
I just sit here and think... I'm "Very good" on every category except Polygons... which is at "poor" that makes my entire avatar poor... might as well use more features, since it can't get any worse
tough warren
what if you combined all your audio clips into one big one and made the animation start and stop it at certain times
amber hemlock
I don't believe an animation can play a certain part of a sound clip
worn lantern
Nope
amber hemlock
If it can that's new to me
tough warren
it could be done with scripting but we can't do that =/
karmic condor
That would require scripting, or Wwise
tough warren
just write a script that changes the audio player settings
timber blaze
tall avatars will be marked as poor
đ¤
timber blaze
what about really fat ones
amber hemlock
people over 4 meters wide...
timber blaze
yes
amber hemlock
Wait no, 5 meters wide.
timber blaze
one thicc triangle to steal everyones frames
amber hemlock
Banned for laggy
timber blaze
banned for having triangle too big
tough warren
i don't understand the big avatars being bad thing
maybe it's because they screw with occlusion culling? idk
still perch
well, they also mostly just dont fit the enviroment / game.
tough warren
depends, they are fine in big outdoor scenes
amber hemlock
I think there should be a distinction between unoptimized avatars and socially annoying avatars.
Shouldn't be using the same system used to encourage well-made avatars to also discourage spam
tough warren
i mean if you are being annoying people are gonna block you anyway
amber hemlock
if there's a framerate reason to discourage large avatars, it's fine. I have no stake in the matter i have no huge avatars.
tough warren
i pretty much insta-block anyone as soon as i hear bass-boosted music
worn lantern
@tough warren might wanna block me then
It's on only one avatar but I still bring it out sometimes
karmic condor
Idk why anyone would block loneeevee, he is a upstanding person
candid sedge
what if they are a digimon person
tough warren
i guess i'm just grumpy
wicked void
@amber hemlock It has to do with the bounding box of the model, which if I had to guess is marked poorly for being too big, because it makes it less likely to be culled.
distant forge
There's also just the matter of fill. Bigger avatar means more pixels drawn to the screen in your average not too big scale pug type world
Also given that too large objects kind of break z sorting so many polys will be rendered over again. Still probably not too big effect in terms of performance unless it's alpha blended and multiple layers
somber beacon
My main concern with this proposed system is that it could unfairly change players' perception of other players. It's framed fundamentally differently than trust rank, in an unfavorable way.
Instead of a Newbie > Seasoned indicator, it is quite clearly a Good > Bad indicator. I'm unsure of whether or not this was what was intended, but that's how it is and will be perceived. Regardless of context, labeling players as good or bad for any reason will alter how others see them. The more abstract the label, the more pronounced this effect will be, as human beings at a subconscious level tend to fill gaps irrationally.
Best case scenario, no one cares about the system and disengages from it, rendering it pointless anyway. Worst case, it becomes a new vector for harassment, as players target other players with this "bad" rating purely because of the rating itself, without these players understanding WHY they have it, and the target might not know HOW to fix it.
candid sedge
myself i dont plan on using it if i cant see the numbers and even then it would only be to find what unholy avatar joined the map that dropped me 15 fps
worn lantern
The thing I don't like about this system, I've iterated many times before, along with Adeon and Rokk, the system just has too much on it and has no leniance at all to anyone.
It labels an avatar as bad solely off of one thing going off the chart, and for me it'd be all the audio I put on my avatars
And being rated as bad will mean users who have no idea how any of this works
They will see the red star
somber beacon
Using mechanics or systems in an online experience to turn players against eachother - even if only built for the purpose of social pressure -WILL facilitate harassment.
somber beacon
Oh I'm talking about something far worse
I'm talking about users singling out other users with bad ratings JUST because of that
worn lantern
Shaming, harassment, yea yea
But I'm throwing in my side too
Just to throw it in
Yours is a good argument too
somber beacon
There needs to be an indication to the user themselves - AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE - explaining why they have a bad rating
somber beacon
Can you click on yourself and see them?
worn lantern
I assume?
candid sedge
thats all i wanted from it
worn lantern
But people will be ignorant and not pay attention to that
somber beacon
Relying on others to tell you is, once again, open to harassment
worn lantern
So it's still kinda pointless
somber beacon
We already have a pseudo-caste system with trust, that I've seen grief caused by numerous times
And that wasn't even intended to be negative
This is
Never underestimate a person's capacity to take something crafted in good intentions, and use it for evil
worn lantern
One of Rokk's main complaints about this thing too is actually the nameplates
It's up to 21 drawcalls now because of this
- For a single nameplate. Imagine a full pug or something.
somber beacon
I always disable nameplates because of how horribly unoptimized they are
Can nameplates themselves get a bad rating?
đ
worn lantern
This is so sad can we get more nameplate materials
somber beacon
But yeah, long story short
I just think this has WAY too much potential for user-on-user abuse
worn lantern
We all know the devs won't remove this
Just wait for the feature to come out I guess and we'll see how much hate people get for it
somber beacon
People will join, grab a cool avatar, get called a ****** ****** *** ******** for wearing it, and then quit
Without knowing why that happened
It's impenetrable to new users, in the brief time VRChat has to make a first impression
If the first thing that happens is that they get harassed for a label they don't know why they have... They'll leave
worn lantern
Inb4 Nikei is actually not "Very good "
candid sedge
well some people are rude af even if you are just asking a question that are in this discord and ive never seen anyone go after them for it other than maybe the mods saying cut it out
and this update as it is needs changes but
it could be used for events to have people change to a good avatar or an event hosted one
for very large rooms
not so much public
as even i can run public jsut fine in vr on my potato
somber beacon
Also... Where's my per-avatar VRAM metric?
That was my biggest problem back when I was doing VR on a 4GB card
worn lantern
Anyway I'm gonna go
somber beacon
People with super-high-def textures
worn lantern
Good night
candid sedge
and its not like the people who lets the trusted user thing get inside there head did not get blocked by people around them just for how poorly they acted
do you really want to know someone like that in the first place?
somber beacon
People only get blocked for being jerks AFTER they've been a jerk
IE, after someone's already been hurt
The damage would already be done by then
mossy solar
1 collider OH NO YOUR AVATAR IS POORLY OPTIMIZED!
marsh trail
2 colliders Ban'd
woeful crescent
What have i done wrong??
why is my camera like 100% wrong
This is a new model
someone help please??
I dont understand whats wrong with my camera
granite junco
@woeful crescent Your screenshot doesn't really share a lot of information as to what could be an issue, honestly.
By "camera" do you mean your viewpoint? also, do you use VR?
granite junco
So, what do you mean by Camera then
granite junco
that's just a screenshot
woeful crescent
Thats what i see
granite junco
Yes, but from What. do you mean the Ingame camera you can use in VR?
woeful crescent
when i load that model thats the view i have
granite junco
or do you mean your viewpoint
granite junco
okay that's what I was asking
granite junco
I'm not sure, your screenshot doesn't show much information regarding your viewpoint
as far as the unity sc goes.
woeful crescent
Do you not see the model in the mirror? its fliped
granite junco
That's not what i'm talking about
i'm talking about in unity
Take a look at your viewpoint settings in unity
woeful crescent
Like, when i move my mouse around everything is inverted, i posted the unity one hoping someone can help me fix it
granite junco
What I am saying is that the unity screenshot doesn't show me anything relating to the issue.
Things like the avatar descriptor are what we want to look at.
granite junco
Yes, that was not in the original sc
woeful crescent
All i did was tinker with my camera trying to change to angle in unity that shouldnt effect my ingam viewpoint should it?
granite junco
Which camera in unity?
granite junco
That's just a normal camera, presumably the camera tied to your play mode
so no.
What happens when you move around ingame? is everything still flipped. just curious
granite junco
Is the issue persisting when you use a different model?
woeful crescent
Im not sure how to change models...i cant touch my menu
granite junco
worst case you could just remove the avatar from your account and thus you won't be able to load into it
granite junco
I don't see anything that looks off from the screenshot of unity.
perhaps try to simply re-upload it and see if it was just an issue when it was uploaded
other than the fact that
the Z axis on the avatar descriptor might be the issue
so just double check to make sure the view point is near where it should be
inside your models head
woeful crescent
Everything is inverted, and i cant change models
harsh ether
One thing I noticed is big avatars = poor avatar quality 
granite junco
then re-upload it and confirm the viewpoint position
you want it in your head
if it isn't
harsh ether
Makes me want to try to see a 2k poly model will affect performance
granite junco
I can't see the view point in your screen shot, so i'm not sure if it Is or isn't in your head
but at .2 i'd assume it isn't
harsh ether
If I make the avatar big
woeful crescent
Now what about the Z?
granite junco
@harsh ether what do you mean by poor avatar quality btw?
@woeful crescent .2 is probably not in your head and is likely the issue
woeful crescent
granite junco
so confirm where the viewpoint is, and edit it till it's in your head
granite junco
you want it inside yeah
solid bane
looks good
solid bane
may i ask why the avatar is on a z offset?
granite junco
^that's also odd
solid bane
blender đ issue đ
woeful crescent
But i didnt do that...it was always like that, i have a second version that is the exact same but no broken camera
solid bane
might be sinking into the ground a bit then
woeful crescent
it was always offset
solid bane
pay close attention
granite junco
Either way
solid bane
anyways
granite junco
sinking into the ground / = camera issues, that's just something you either want to fix or not
in this case
pretty sure
you had the view point WAY too far
away from your face
i'd do .02 for you. .05 is barely in the head
woeful crescent
Why would it being infront of my face make it show the wrong direction?? on unity previous i put them on the nose bridge and it was fine
woeful crescent
But it didnt break the camera
woeful crescent
ok
solid bane
bounding box possibly 
granite junco
then it may ahve just been an uploading error too
or something On the model
like added mesh that is conflicting with it
woeful crescent
I added shades..but my friend did the exact same with one he modded for me and it worked so its not the shades
granite junco
Either way
woeful crescent
same shades too
granite junco
upload it again
woeful crescent
i am
solid bane
shades wouldnt break it
woeful crescent
its not a fast process
solid bane
theyre attached to the head so theyll be ignored
granite junco
Unless it's on something Not attached to the head
granite junco
yeah, I mean other things we might not be able to see
solid bane
tru
full hierarchy would be lit
but thats a bit hard to pull off with that many bones
granite junco
the other question
not that I think it'd cause this issue honestly
but is the rig set up properly?
woeful crescent
Yes, I got it from VRC mods, my friend modded one for me and sent it my way of the same model and i uploaded it perfectly fine...i took the same model, added glasses just like he did but with one less clothing item and it did this
granite junco
That site. oof.
woeful crescent
i cant build models my self, im not a mesh maker
solid bane
maybe you just got unlucky and the upload was screwed up
yes but dont talk bout that site here
granite junco
Don't have to be, I guarantee the person that uploaded that didn't make it either
solid bane
its not welcome
granite junco
as far as the mesh goes
woeful crescent
Well i know of 0 other websites with working models that ready for vrchat
candid sedge
Is your char not rotated the wrong way in unity? Put a prefab with that blue man and make sure char is rotated like him and remove any camera that is under your character when you hit the little drop down arrow
I cant see well on this phone so im not sure
But try that
granite junco
Well it IS an sdk, so it's not in my opinion meant to be one of those things like steam workshop or something like that where there are simply ready to go resources prebuilt, for that we have ingame avatar worlds and the basic list of avatars to choose from. there are a few websites with payed models that are unity/vrchat ready however.
candid sedge
Its nearly impossible for me to read whats on your hierarchy atm
granite junco
@candid sedge the rotation on his model is all normal as far as I can see
candid sedge
I think i see lamp so you might also have a camera under char?
If one was not removed i dont see why the other would be gone
That camera needs to go
candid sedge
Might have 2 one sec ill go back inside
woeful crescent
Same model, just with a police ves
Camera fine
exact same model 100% minus the vest
now lets try the new one
Sucesss
granite junco
very likely an issue with the Viewpoint or a issue when uploading
candid sedge
are these chars uploaded in the past?
candid sedge
so before you had the problem?
woeful crescent
Well its fixed now
as you can see
Now...this may be a dumb reason...but could vrchat have been trying to load in VR mode without a vr headset and going dumb?
this time i also made sure to tell it desktop mode
granite junco
I don't recall how it acts, but I don't believe that even if you could load it in "vr mode" without a vr headset that it would cause this issue because in VR if you use your mouse, it still correctly moves your viewpoint as if you were in desktop
so, likely because your viewpoint was waaaaay off
or an upload bug.
woeful crescent
it cant be my viewpoint...how would being infront of me back it look behind me
woeful crescent
Well we also reuploaded it
granite junco
Yes, hence my statement
feel free to test it out and go back to how you had it
and see if it happens again
woeful crescent
ill pass xD
woeful crescent
BUT
woeful crescent
i have models with the viewpoint on the nose, that work fine with the cmaera
camera*
granite junco
.2 is Nowhere near your face
that's an issue
if .05 is Barely in your head
.2 is waaaaay farther
granite junco
but you said it was an inch or two from your face previously
woeful crescent
No i said a inch or two from being inside the head
granite junco
which is an issue lol
granite junco
yeah!
either way
w.e the issue was
100% recommend keeping it closer to 0
especiallyif you get VR eventually
otherwise your arms will look really short and it'll be very awkward
polar bolt
woeful crescent
@polar bolt tried there, couldnt upload the screenshots to get help
granite junco
I can't be bothered, i'll just end that here then considering it's resolved. glad you got it fixed~
woeful crescent
Thanks
polar bolt
@discord_mods maybe make the channel permissions consistent? I'm guessing an oversight since the optimization ones are new
surreal topaz
#world-development also has upload rights
floral plover
Hello, is there a way or an aset to reduce polygones of an avatar ? except manually erase polygones of course
velvet spoke
Decimation in Blender
floral plover
nothing in unity ?
solid bane
nope
surreal topaz
You always have to go into Blender or some sort of 3D modeling tool anyway
smoky lantern
There's ways to join meshes and auto atlas things in Unity. I wouldn't completely rule out a tool that simplifies a mesh. I haven't seen one, but it shouldn't be ruled out. đ
Well, the auto atlas works pretty much like shotariya's in that it seems more like texture stitching. Just automated and you don't have to open Blender. Probably handier for worlds than avatars.
ornate saffron
@floral plover Mantis LOD Editor will do what you want. http://www.mesh-online.net/products.html
thin cedar
Mantis LOD Editor does not do what he wants since he asked to be able to manually erase them.
ornate saffron
No he didn't ask for manually erasing them, reread his question.
floral plover
Thanks I'll try it out later and tell you if it works
sweet mason
What an avatar with 1 draw call would look like. Its even possible?
worn lantern
@sweet mason An avatar with one material and a good shader. That's literally it.
sweet mason
Cool. Basically all my avatar then
shut sequoia
at least you know about them. there's worlds getting a week suspension because they don't check the upload page lol
vague hearth
@smoky lantern i can make a script for shell autoatlasing but will still require blender files đ
heady smelt
Gimme
sweet mason
Does is change something if the file is an fbx or the blend file in the end for the performance ?
marsh trail
I think .blend files are far heavier (in terms of actual size) but i'm unsure if the end result varies when uploaded
karmic condor
Way heavier. I had to delete one moving to 2017 because of some glitches with blender.
dark storm
if you directly import the blend file you have less control over the conversion
it auto converts to an FBX internally in unity
so do it in blender and you can have all the export controls :)
worn lantern
@karmic condor Heavier yes, but when you upload to VRChat, the file is FBX anyway, at least I think it is
floral light
Is any one else having problems getting shades to work my cudeshader or even the shades that r ushly in unity will not come up for the textures can any one help?
karmic condor
check the materials tab, choose "external". Should be next to where you setup the rig
floral light
is there any way you can take a pic for me i am sorry but i cant find it
i think i found it i think XD
karmic condor
It usually takes some poking around to find it. No worries
sweet mason
its a new thing of that version i think you can edit the iport setthing like you want
amber hemlock
So on this Avatar Performance ranking thing, it says "1" animator is Very Good, and up to "4" is good. Does this count the one we are required to have, or does even one custom animation knock is to down to just Good?
Is there a way to reuse the required animator for custom animations so a second one is not needed?
fierce copper
Anyone know what to do if my avatars shirts isnt really moving with the body? Trying to keep it in unity if possible
worn lantern
Sorry buddy, no custom animators. Hackspanner said so.
vague hearth
@fierce copper you need to weight paint shirt via any model editors or have it as separate mesh and put the mesh inside of bone that will move the this mesh, in bones hierarchy at the Inspector unity tab
also be sure that you have bones with names that shirt are using or do a merge of weights to bone that you have (check if skirt fully weight painted to existed bone)
still perch
@amber hemlock it does count it, yep
shut sequoia
lol imagine wanting to move
but you cant because you want that Very Good avatar rating
still perch
The current numbers are stupid.
You'd expect to at least be able to get "medium" with what gets accepted for pedestrals
Everything else is stupid.
visual tinsel
medium isn't bad, but it feels like it is.
shut sequoia
Yeah, the maximum on pedestals should be the middle point for where grading starts
or else why are they letting users even upload "Very Poor" avatars to public worlds? lol
"your avatar is Very Poor. We've deemed it acceptable to be used by hundreds of people"
grim kiln
Gesture animations are still on the 1 Main Animator
So would assume it only counts as 1
shut sequoia
i've got 18 dynamic bone scripts and nothing will convince me not to have them
visual tinsel
@shut sequoia Because then they'd have to check it server side, also hard limiting is bad.
shut sequoia
That's where the check is on Upload in the beta though
visual tinsel
never trust the client
shut sequoia
What I'm saying is "Poor/Very Poor" which most world avatars, even basic ones, will be probably have for most avatars shouldn't even be allowed, nor is the list even good right now
One collider? Poor. Even if it's to touch your two ear bones, or some other gimmick. That's why the numbers need to change, which im guessing they will
fierce copper
@vague hearth all this can be done in unity?
amber hemlock
Well, I spent all day getting my polygon from "Poor" (65K) down to what is considered "Very Good" (under 32K) but then i found out if I want "Very Good" I also need to remove my tail animation. So, no... no way. I'm undoing my decimation to the limits of "Good" (40K) instead. e_e
@still perch
solid bane
i guess its time to make a cube avatar
amber hemlock
Cube has like 12 polygons
amber hemlock
what a waste, only 1 is needed for a visual identity
amber hemlock
minimum of 2 tris, that's like 200% more than what's needed
solid bane
đ
but seriously, cool avatars wont go below good
unless you save on every corner
rain ivy
just make sure your cube avatar keeps its box collider so you can get medium optimisation status,
solid bane
heck yea
still perch
@amber hemlock and basically zero bones for movement 
And no collider for anything but poor
still perch
I hope that's a joke
still perch
One per hand. And that'll allready blow up the transforms
solid bane
preparation for knuckles
still perch
Optimize that thing
solid bane
nah 
still perch
It's absolutely ridiculous
solid bane
noone lagged because of it
still perch
yeah...
amber hemlock
I'm pretty sure I got my main avatar to "Good" status, unless some category I'm not paying attention to makes me worse
still perch
How many bones do they interact with.
amber hemlock
No "Very Good" avatar is going to be worth wearing imho...
solid bane
2
amber hemlock
I mean I'll make a super optimized one just for the star but i'll never wear it xD
still perch
Bones or roots (with child bones)
calm spade
My personal avatar is very good 
solid bane
well, you can use individual fingers to interact, not a clunky single collider in the entire hand
i could probably slim it down to 1 or 2 per finger
but thats it
still perch
Still 64 transforms with just 2 affected bones
solid bane
will only do dat if the performance analysis tells me its not ok
still perch
It is not okay
solid bane
the game gotta tell me dat 
solid bane
heh, i just dont want to adjust anything
amber hemlock
if so how
solid bane
hmm
amber hemlock
my custom animations play in unity play mode but not in-game
solid bane
idk how far the use of the animator is allowed
amber hemlock
the only play in vrchat when it's a secondary animator
solid bane
welp, no clue then đ
amber hemlock
you can string animations end to end with exit time but that's about it
maybe if i make it a different layer
vague hearth
@fierce copper only the part with putting already separated mesh inside of a bone that will cause just moving whole mesh with that bone, unity is not a modelling program and self weighting need a time and usually not an easy process
spare saffron
can you have light sources baked on your avatar?
And if so what if they are animated? to shrink and enlarge
Only asking because of optimization
vague hearth
@spare saffron as i remember that is occulision texture and you can use a shader that is not affect by light sources
spare saffron
wait what? O.o
vague hearth
@spare saffron occulision map is something like a Baked light, and unlit shaders aren't affect by lights
doesn't sure if there any unlit shaders with working occulision map without a light đ¤
spare saffron
hm okay
surreal topaz
@solid bane "nobody ever lagged"
I can guarantee they did lol, even if they don't know it was you
worn lantern
Why in the world
@solid bane I can tell you right now the colliders are always running calculations, even if they aren't hitting any bones. Even if it's only two bones, it adds up
solid bane
but shouldnt it only be calculated by me with the new update ?
worn lantern
The way you need to see colliders is actively doubling the amount of affected transforms for each collider
solid bane
like the coming one
still perch
No
worn lantern
No that's only for the IK system
velvet spoke
Whats your ingame name just so i can block @solid bane
worn lantern
You have 30 colliders, 15 for each hand
solid bane
dont try to convince me
still perch
So You like wasting colliders and calculations for something stupid as 32 finger colliders interacting with 2 bones
solid bane
its the same discussion like i the one i had about atlasing a few months ago
(before cats got updated)
worn lantern
So you effectively have 60 bones
velvet spoke
Atlasing before that took 20 minutes to do
If you did it manually
Not the tupper method
solid bane
and knew how to do it
but i dont want to use blender for longer than i have to
i hate that software
worn lantern
So you rather have an unoptimized avatar
velvet spoke
And lag everyone out
worn lantern
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
solid bane
hurts but accept it
velvet spoke
10/10 ignorance these people are the reason the game runs like shit
solid bane
still perch
You can't just stop a discussion about optimization...
velvet spoke
Deserves a straight up ban
solid bane
yes i can, by not responding anymore
worn lantern
Meanwhile I put a ton of effort into the rigs of avatars, sometimes even having to redo weighting
solid bane
i dont even play vrc actively anymore so it doesnt matter anyway
worn lantern
While we're on the topic of optimization actually, I need to start merging the twist bones of Pokemon models again.
The trainers rather
The Pokemon themselves surprisingly don't have them
amber hemlock
I think the only reason people are against atlassing is they don't know how pathetically easy CATS makes it now
it's literally push button receive better avatar
solid bane
yes, that i use
but i refuse to lose my colliders
just remembered pepe is forbidden
amber hemlock
Haven't been following conversation much, and not scrolling back. Colliders are laggy. 2 is fair imho. don't need more
solid bane
@amber hemlock you missunderstood XD
i have 30 for 2 bones đ
thats why i got barked at
amber hemlock
It's your avatar. If you didn't mod the SDK, no one has any right to tell you what to do
solid bane
yeppers
amber hemlock
But yeah it's terrible
solid bane
worn lantern
I mod my SDK for audio reasons mmm
surreal topaz
30 colliders for 2 bones?
That's equivalent to 60 dynbone transforms. That's way more than you could possibly need, considering how inaccurate dynbone colliders are. They're literally just spheres sliding off of other spheres. It's a mess.
But it's not as bad as having individual finger colliders for your skirt or hair or anything
Still, remind me to block your avatar lmao
If there's a root bone for those two bones then it's actually 90 transforms lol
still perch
I still don't know what 2 things you would want that perfect interacting with.
Please don't let it be the breasts...
worn lantern
Inb4 someone wants massively realistic breasts so they make bones for each vertex
Well maybe not that
3 bones that are split across different areas of each
still perch
Don't give stupid ideas that someone might try even if it's not going to be great at all
surreal topaz
@still perch I'm willing to bet it's ears in their case
@worn lantern someone already did that once
Svelsien sent me a screenshot of how a model's breast bones were laid out, ridiculous
turbid grove
it was needed
shut sequoia
ign so i can block?
also kareeda does that
and shonzo started after seeing him do it. the boob thing
12 per tit i think, or 6 maybe
oooh its the eevee tool, i had him blocked already
surreal topaz
Doesn't surprise me that Shonzo has unoptimized stuff
grim kiln
You can just avatar block instead of blocking the person
velvet spoke
Yeah but that person is being an ignorant cunt so theres no reason not to block the whole person.
floral plover
@ornate saffron ok Mantis LOD worked perfectly to decimate my meshes thanks a lot !
neon coral
When people whine about dynamic bones and colliders. And you still run the game at 90 fps. With 10 to 20 of these avatars. đ
velvet spoke
neon coral
Can doubt all you want.
still perch
@floral plover you will probably want to do more then just that tho
@neon coral with or without vr?
floral plover
@still perch why?
still perch
Atlasing textures (materials) . Possibly merging bones
floral plover
No I just make a avatar via a premades 3d creator. but the meshes renderer are to high. I just needed to lower the skin meshes and it turn allright.
still perch
How many materials does the model have
polar bolt
Add CPU hogging by vive wireless and performance is even more of a concern LambdaDelta
mint kernel
and again, tell all that the guy who made that ultra unoptimized nametags
heady smelt
How many people even own wireless
Not many
People who have 10+ colliders and 10+ materials will dramatically out weigh that
solid bane
@velvet spoke wow, thats so nice of you
why would i even want to interact with someone that toxic anyway
amber hemlock
@still perch there are 3 digits on each finger and you have 10 fingers. Thatâs 30. And two breasts. I can warrant a guess lol
When does the performance update enter beta testing? I really want to check my avatars
still perch
why not check it on unity 
amber hemlock
They build that into the STK? Mine only gives me polygons
amber hemlock
Thanks! Is this the same output that the official thing is going to judge with?
amber hemlock
I just have too much stuff to dig through and count, especially because some of them I didnât set up myself
still perch
the thing they implement will do the same
it doesnt do all but help with some things
things like how many animators and meshes and such is what you should be able to know your self easily
(im not sure what exactly it all lists, give it a try and see)
neon coral
Yeah.. no, in vr. Its the only way I play vrc.
safe swift
yeah, I don't rly believe you, it's really not possible to have 90 fps with 15 ppl when we have this IK and dynamic bones that tanks your CPU
surreal topaz
At least the remote IK should fix some of that
heady smelt
Hopefully
shut sequoia
I'm a tad late since I woke up late but
@surreal topaz @wary relic @velvet spoke @heady smelt @worn lantern thelist changed
heady smelt
Ooh
shut sequoia
Or you know, it was never set in stone
worn lantern
Hold up
shut sequoia
i have a screenshot of the old one for this exact moment so lemme find it to compare to Live
worn lantern
Bmbmmhmmhmh
heady smelt
Can we have a Collider without going into lowest rank? Lol
shut sequoia
Yeah, 1 puts you at medium up to 4
worn lantern
Still p bad
heady smelt
Ah ok
wary relic
Collider stuff is still dumb...
Its still poor rank or nothing
Even though it went from 2 to 4--
shut sequoia
That's Medium
tired badger
Well if they manage to weight it it'll be better
shut sequoia
and now it's already nOt SeT iN sToNe LiKe I sAiD
tired badger
like 1 collider on an avatar with 7 dynamic transforms verse one with 200 would probably be way different
shut sequoia
GoOoOoOoOoOsh
shut sequoia
Colliders went for 0 to 4, so it's Medium or Nothing.
wary relic
Hm? Ow i looked wrong then
shut sequoia
Still confused about some of the things, like Bounds or audio source, but baby steps really
oh wait no that changed also
wary relic
Bound size didnt?
shut sequoia
NOPE LOL
worn lantern
Audio didn't change either
polar bolt
Still no sign of IK components...
worn lantern
I'm gonna get so many of my avatars downranked because of audio
surreal topaz
Why don't they remove the collider limit?
They already count "Collider Affected Transforms", which does matter and they seem to have done that perfectly.
shut sequoia
Pretty sure colliders still do stuff even when not colliding is why
surreal topaz
They don't, I actually checked the code
A limit is fine but it should be pretty damn high
Colliders have absolutely no code being called on their own
They get called by the dynamic bone scripts listening to colliders
polar bolt
That â
tired badger
12 Tri Avatar Cube, 1 material, 1 bone, 4 dynamic colliders with nothing to collider with. Wonder what it'd rank
polar bolt
also no cameras in the list as a sign of getting them back
Though getting those there would still be useful for not silently lagging out friends đ¤
Nvm that's actually a good trolling idea to do with green star avatar đ
trail yarrow
yeah, I have 4 colliders on my avatar, one on each hand so I can bump my floppy ears, then one on each leg for the skirt
but under the old system, having those 2 on my hands would have put me in a bad spot, despite them not doing anything 95% of the time
oh nvm it still does put me in a bad spot
good times
karmic condor
You can get rid of the colliders on the skirt by weight painting the skirt to the legs. It works way better than colliders too
Get rid as in you wonât need them
trail yarrow
I'm not a blender guy tbh, I've been trying for months to get a better handle on it, but having spent so long in maya it just feels so broken and wrong
if there were a cats for maya I'd never touch blender again l0l
karmic condor
Is exporting between maya and unity through blender something possible
trail yarrow
eh, maya has big issues with mmd models and blendshapes
stuff doesn't export correctly
karmic condor
Got it
lean kindle
the collider still do calculations even if theyâre not doing anything afaik
karmic condor
I believe that is correct
trail yarrow
someone said earlier They don't, I actually checked the code A limit is fine but it should be pretty damn high Colliders have absolutely no code being called on their own They get called by the dynamic bone scripts listening to colliders
polar bolt
Thats about the collider component itself. If bone script has colliders assigned, then the bone script does do calculations with the colliders
sweet mason
activate the collider with a gesture i guess
polar bolt
Also I'm exporting from Maya fine, yeah it namespaces blendshapes, but they still work. I use blender only for stuff from cats and export back to Maya
And that system counts even inactive stuff from what i heard so far
sweet mason
3ds was fine
gleaming yacht
Do not talk about pirating assets in this discord.
cunning maple
amber hemlock
Hm, I see that polygons no longer influence rating past Good. Is this final?
distant forge
Let's say my avatar has a large skirt which currently is done with one sided polygons but I want to be able to see the inside faces as well. I see a few options here, and I'm curious what would have the best performance:
- Set the whole mesh to double sided (Cull Off) - this potentially increases fill if back vertices are drawn first.
- Duplicate pretty much all the clothing (9000 vertices) and flip normals - this means 9000 more vertices to skin
- separate material for the clothing with double sided shader, one material for everything else.
I'm pretty sure 3. is really bad...so it's a tossup between 1. and 2. - trading off fill for extra polys/verts (which we are luckily allowed to do now with the higher limit) What do other people do in this situation?
distant forge
Thanks for the answer. It makes a lot of sense. In the past I saw quite a few tutorials advocating 2, so I used to do that.
though not with 9000 polys, usually it was way less. this is kind of an extreme case
still perch
3 I don't know. I heard that using the same texture is lighter then a completely different material with individual textures. But it don't know what would be better. I would Stil belive 1
marsh trail
1 is the best option IMO unless it somehow screws up with something else on the model, in which case i'd apply 3
ripe tulip
3
floral plover
hello, I watched some tutorials about lip sync models, and they all appeared to be doing it with blender.
I was wondering if taht was the only way or can I do a simple opening mouth animation with unity if I have a jaw bone ?
ripe tulip
blender has a addon called CATs , recommend you check that out , jaw bone is not actually used in VRchat for mouth animations , it used shape keys that are made in programs like blender
polar bolt
- if it doesn't mess the look on model (normally only a problem for transparent objects). But I'd still suggest profiling.
- in this case ain't a good solution as swaping shader programs is expensive, can in some cases be more expensive than some branching in the shader (but I only found that in simple GLSL shaders so don't take my word for it) We're not fillrate-limited here in most cases (Yes if somebody is oversampling a lot, but with more ppl, bottleneck still shifts to CPU)
ripe tulip
for CATs to work your model need at least 3 shape keys to generate all the other facial animations
marsh trail
So provided even a single criteria is not met a users' avatars are marked lower accordingly?
amber hemlock
Yes
If anything is above âpoorâ you get âvery poorâ
The values were altered I think the current ones are more fair, or at least, wonât have a sea of very poor everywhere
This puts medium in reach with minimal effort
marsh trail
I'll most likely get medium and stick with it then, unless it gets even sharper and i'll most likely be in the poor territory
amber hemlock
I was in poor before the fix but now Iâm good, very good if I ditch my custom animator đŚ
If they only want 1 animator, they need to let you play custom animations without adding a second one imho.
Custom anim donât seem to play when placed into the default animator
Everyone uses a separate one
Unless that was the idea
marsh trail
I personally would've preferred a summed account in terms of the labels stated, as that seems to be a more fair assessment than an end-all be-all perfect inbetween, but that's just my opinion
The criteria is definitively feasible don't get me wrong, it just sounds like it could be better with that in mind
amber hemlock
A lot of people wanted a weighted average / point system yeah but doing it this way makes the ratings feel more like meeting a specification
marsh trail
I just hope this doesn't turn into a witch hunt for people now, with more information also comes its drawbacks, unfortunatelly
amber hemlock
Avoids âlet me just get rid of my sounds so I can add more colliders...â
marsh trail
Well that could be easily fixed by actually accounting for such, the higher the increment, the lower the rating
amber hemlock
Itâll be a witch hunt the first few days Iâm sure, just like rank was. Then eventually no one will care
marsh trail
It's just easier to account for very specific specifications i 'spose
amber hemlock
Personally I want feedback on whatâs laggy and whatâs not, itâs hard to tell in game right now
How can you choose optimized avatars if you canât see the details
marsh trail
The addition of the avatar inspector will do wonders in that regard then haha
amber hemlock
Making it social may be annoying, but with clone avatar coming out people would be able to find out anyway if they had nât
marsh trail
I guess i could make a box, as optimized as can be eh
Personal for private, box for public
amber hemlock
Well giving up is always a valid option I guess x)
marsh trail
Atleast i'll void any warranty for plausible harrasment or certain blockin' y'know?
amber hemlock
Personally I find optimizing avatars to be a learning experience, it is work, but it feels rewarding
And you get to not be a box in public.
marsh trail
Oh i know mate, i personally manually decimated all me models under 20k
I always cared for optimization to an extent
amber hemlock
Itâs pretty easy to make optimized versions for public, with minimal to no visual change
Dynamic bones donât look good in a room full of avies at 5 fps anyway
marsh trail
I'd just rather avoid public outcries when i know my models are causing nobody not even a smudge of lag, nor would a room full of ehm
I did test it in the past aswell, so i do know such
Even though IK takes a huge toll in it
amber hemlock
Well. If you are the highest rated one you are the biggest contributor to lag I donât feel like itâs fair to deny that
IK? IK is the biggest source of lag, more than bone colliders
marsh trail
I'm not, as far as i'm aware that is, just stating that i know even medium rated ones will be sneered upon
That's why i said IK takes a huge toll in it man
But yeah, all i hope is that people try to avoid witch huntin' for people, it really won't make most of them want to optimize, if anything it might put them off entirely, which some would probably say "good riddance" towards, but oh well
amber hemlock
There will absolutely be witch hunting, at least in the start. Itâs pretty much a given, just like there was for rank and you deal with it the same way I dealt with people who mentioned rank, I just blocked him without announcing it, no response, just block and move on
And after a few days no one will care anymore
marsh trail
I mean yeah that is one way to deal with it, it's just a tad sad we can't be all civilised in that sense, i know i know, wishful thinking and all that, but y'know
amber hemlock
This is the internet itâs unreasonable to expect people to be civilized