sage haven
you need to desimate before you make visemes
#avatar-optimization
lavish prairie
Does adding a new object and creating a new material for it for a animation, counts as an extra material on your avatar?
vague hearth
@lavish prairie what kind of animation you want to create? if just appearing object by animation i think that better to merge objects and do appearing with shape keys
and yes each object and material counts, but not in render when object disabled i think 🤔
lavish prairie
Having a sphere appear with some particles and play music.
distant forge
Sounds like only needs two materials so should be no problem given most avatars only need a few
lavish prairie
Thanks to the both of you for responding.
harsh ether
@paper elm it's normal
Just make a new avatar as normal and the console error goes away next time you update the avatar
oblique wind
Does having the model in two seperate meshes create more drawcalls if each mesh is a different material?
like mesh 1 has only material 1, mesh 2 has only material 2
vs one mesh with material 1 and 2
polar bolt
Same in terms of draw calls, but if meshes are skinned, merge them as multiple meshes perform worse
brittle abyss
Atlasing stuff is very much worth it. This is what I've done so far with one of my public avatars from my world to reduce an immense amount, and still working on the rest.
Atlased normal maps, metallics and roughness
https://i.imgur.com/7NjXR0C.png
Though, I've got a question. Do VRChat people that verify worlds look at animations of avatars as well in terms of performance regarding skinned meshes? For example, this one makes a minigun appear with a gesture that has 3 meshes and 2 materials that are required for animation, will it still pass?
strong perch
Hi, would be nice, if the new SDK could block upload when someone doesn't use the Dynamic Bone Distant disable for a Distance of maybe 20 (the Number requires testing/feedback).
velvet spoke
The distance disable is forced in vrchat, also dont ping the admins.
@strong perch
Just like the update rate is forced to 60
strong perch
Didn't know that it is forced because I was always using that from the Start. 😛
strong perch
Yes, I read that.
velvet spoke
Then why would you ping him.
strong perch
Forgot it, read it now again.
marsh trail
Yeesh, guess no more pinging for pins then, did people ping them that much? .-.
surreal topaz
Svelsien got kicked for pinging the mods when there was fighting going on so don't expect much from the moderation
marsh trail
Seriously?
surreal topaz
Basically yeah
marsh trail
Sheesh... alright then
gloomy dagger
I havn't been on vr chat in about 3 months. I saw we need a new version of unity. Has the poly limit increased from 20k? have there been any other changes?
gloomy dagger
ok, thanks
surreal topaz
It will be increased to 70k though @gloomy dagger
gloomy dagger
Thanks for the info. Do you know when?
surreal topaz
Nope, next open beta which should be "soon"
still perch
but actual soon not soon(tm) 
surreal topaz
You never know
mint kernel
yes i saw the new Performance Ranking System .. it is very offensive, generalizing, degrading, and only serves to discriminate other players
well done vrchat
versed nest
🤔
karmic condor
Does it though
thorn ginkgo
Imo the system looks pretty good, a little harsh on dynbones but they do have a significant impact on performance. Remember that the system and values are still subject to change, be sure to join the open beta when it's available so you can post on the canny with your feedback.
karmic condor
If anything some content creators will wine
lean relic
how connect 2 hand with my avatar
mint kernel
this system is not good
it is too generalizing
The presence of an animator is bad without the system taking into account what it is actually good for
versed nest
Well yeah, a couple of the categories are questionable, but that doesn't make the whole system bad
The best part is that they actually tell us how they rank these, the trust system however 
mint kernel
people will block other people because the system will portray these people as bad ..
mint kernel
reminds me of the time when colored people were portrayed as bad
versed nest
Wewlad
patent leaf
lol
mint kernel
it is also nice that the system uses a star to mark the people
i am from germany, i can remember .. we also marked people with stars
wary relic
@mint kernel you ok?
mint kernel
I am not okay, I feel discriminated against by such systems, I apologize if I get a bit sarcastic at the same time .. but here a line is crossed that forces me to go to either .. after several thousand hours ..
lean relic
i need help how connect 2 hand with avatar. how do that
wary relic
You do recall this is a game right?
And that stars aren't just a German thing? Or grouping people (look at companies)
versed nest
But feel free to leave your feedback at hello@vrchat.com or on the canny at vrchat.canny.io
sweet mason
new player are more susceptible to make very poor optimise avatar. like I've done. So if the trust system goes with that . its a good thing
wary relic
Thing is- The system does not help a lot (if at all) with optimazation
mossy solar
I'm not thrilled our nameplates are gonna have even more draw calls...
and it's gonna force people to use bland and boring avatars with nothing special
surreal topaz
Yeah lmao, make the game laggier in the process of shaming people to optimize
mint kernel
I like to build an avatar of this system is classified as super bad, and dosent lag
also i can build one that fits all that rules and laggs as hell
karmic condor
If the name plates aren’t already set up this way they should be set up as a spritesheet
verbal orchid
You can do that. The numbers are just a guideline.. Tell them better ones if you want
mint kernel
publicly portray people as bad although it is not really clear if that is true is unworthy
verbal orchid
I guess so, yeah. But modifying an avatar to be "good" or "very good" takes a few minutes
With the exception of colliders which currently seem to be judged harshly
versed nest
You can check the actual numbers in game I believe
That being said, I doubt the average person would do that 
wary relic
@mint kernel Have an highly optimized avatar and just make it 70001 polygons
Tada instant very poor optimized rank
versed nest
One poor score and your whole avatar is deemed poor
shut sequoia
I mean the numbers could change, pretty sure we weren't supposed to see those notes anyway
they likely will change
mossy solar
the models in doom 2016 are like 40k-90k
versed nest
Im gonna make a hobo with poor performance rating
mossy solar
and my PC with a 1070 pushes 120 fps shrugs
versed nest
Spare optimization, spare optimization pls
verbal orchid
Doom might actually use a decent engine though
shut sequoia
You can't compare VRChat with a normal game. It's not a possibility.
verbal orchid
50 VRChat avatars with above 70k polygons might actually drag down FPS
mossy solar
yeah Unity is crap but what other engine can we do all this stuff with for free
mossy solar
I was fine with 30k limit
karmic condor
70k limit is quite the blessing.
shut sequoia
the thing that kills us in big rooms is the IK
but maybe this IK update will fix some of those issues, we just had a sound related one that seemed to help
wary relic
New Ik calculating tho
versed nest
Now that, that I'm excited for 👀
mint kernel
adding very unoptimised nameplates that have more drawcalls than the most avatars is okay, but if an avatar ....
u know what i mean
shut sequoia
Basically.
mint kernel
why the system dont calculate the drawcalls of an avatar to rate it .. why the amount of animators or particle systems
karmic condor
Sibling bones animate the same so you can combine sibling bones without quality loss
verbal orchid
Drawcalls is basically meshes+materials, probably more for transparent materials?
Another way would be to calculate the frame time for ever avatar. Like live profiling
versed nest
Dissolve bone is okay, but use the merge bone in the cats tool
That'll probably do what you want
Should be around where the translate button is I think
fleet stone
Hey can anyone help out, i did the automatic atlasing on my model as followed by the optimization tutorial video for materials, and now after i inserted it into unity i can't edit the shader for my material because it's grayed out. Anyone know how to change it so i can edit this?
Or am i just missing some dumb button somwhere haha
Oh wow there
Thanks a ton! 😁
Got it
👍
wary relic
Im far from sure but cant you only merge two bones at the same time 👀 ?
versed nest
Nah, should be able to do as many
It merges to parented, not connected, so that shouldn't be an issue
Check out the pinned tutorial if you haven't already
worn lantern
@safe swift Almost looks familiar to me. What Blender theme are you using?
shut sequoia
and can i have
safe swift
that's EXSGT theme, he sent me it months and months and months ago, so if you want it - try asking him
amber hemlock
70K is more than justifiable very surprised. Wonder what the SDK will want your material count under
worn lantern
It'll probably scream at you for having 4 or over
I also wonder if it'll prevent you from uploading at a certain amount
sweet mason
Hehe. Am curious to see how bad those mmd with weird shader are
worn lantern
@sweet mason You mean the ones with the rim light shader that people stereotype as crashers?
sudden jewel
Nothing about MMDs are inherently optimized/unoptimized. It is 100% on the user to optimize models, no matter the source.
If a model is unoptimized, it is the fault of the avatar author. Nobody else
sudden jewel
Please, correct me 😃
mint kernel
i dont think u realy want to learn somthing about optimization .. i ask myself what kind of user u realy want in vrchat, .. those people that spend thousend of hours here, or only some steam users that are nice for some statistics , there come and go , but the content dosent make sense
safe swift
uhhh.. okay
sudden jewel
I... am unsure that answers any kind of questions I had.
What info in our optimization guide is incorrect? @mint kernel
safe swift
I was about to prepare some popcorn, but... 😦
my question is though, does going above 70k limit turns you red when submitting public ava world?
sweet mason
I should try to make one too.
safe swift
i think it would only make sense to be like that 🤷
karmic condor
Going over that would require a modified sdk right. That would probably be a big red flag.
safe swift
seen models 200-300k that are still yellow
mint kernel
it is far too generalized, many of these values do not really say anything about the respective avatar, but the labeling makes it look like this .. I am very sure that it is easy to create an avatar according to your criteria (good) and there lag. And that you can produce avatars that are classified as "Very Poor" and cause no problem with any lag
sudden jewel
Yep, we're fully aware of that. There's a reason why, in two places in our docs, we state that the ranking is not an end-all, be-all ranking.
Runtime impact analysis is not possible in Unity. You can't point at an asset and ask Unity "How much CPU/GPU is that using?"
The Rank system is intended as a way to get a general, ten-mile up view of what might not be great on your avatar.
Not a "YOU ARE RED STAR YOU ARE BAD BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK" system.
If a user wants to do that... well, that's on them. It is their experience, after all, not yours.
mint kernel
why is it necessary to denounce people and label them as "bad" or "good"?
sudden jewel
Because some creators have yet to learn proper optimization techniques and that is a vital part of content creation.
mint kernel
it looks like something we did 40 years ago
shut sequoia
I'm actually worried about "Shame Olympics" for once, which normally isn't something that seems like it would happen but now it's like "oh you're lagging me" when people probably aren't the source of lag, they just have one collider for their two ear bones
sudden jewel
So.. like this? 🤔
safe swift
@mint kernel because people DO NOT CARE about optimization and about overall performance , just look at public avatar world submissions
yesterday or two days ago, I saw 2 ppl with 200mesh+200 materials
I'm only glad to see people with their 400 dynamic bones and block them
sudden jewel
Because I have full PBR on my avatar, reflections, metallic, subsurface scattering, normals, and etc. And my avatar is more performant than someone with a bunch of cubes on bones with 30 DynamicBones.
shut sequoia
If there's creators that aren't fully aware of what they're doing, imagine what the masses who don't even know about blender or unity will think.
karmic condor
that list was funny at first but now its scary to see people still not trying to optimize
mint kernel
but 200 meshes with 200 materials are more of an exception than the rule
sudden jewel
@shut sequoia Think of the Perf Rank as a seed that grows into "how can I optimize my avatar?" and causes people to start looking into it. That's all this is intended to work.
@mint kernel No.
They are not.
Trust me.
safe swift
@mint kernel haha.. no
shut sequoia
Do you not browse the public world list? I do. A lot. It's scary. 200 is somewhat uncommon but not an exception.
worn lantern
@shut sequoia I talked to someone I knew for a bit and I asked him why he doesn't optimize his avatar when I saw he had 7 meshes, he said "Well if I don't lag, it's not my problem."
I feel like a lot of people are like that
And it saddens me
shut sequoia
Yeah, that's where I'm like "Well, maybe these people do need to be shamed."
Because if you flat out don't care, you don't deserve to be seen imo, and you won't be if you're toting like 6 colliders for your 120 bone hair
safe swift
yes, people don't care, I didn't care either, because it was too much of a pain to atlas and then make any changes, but now it's extremely easy to optimize stuff
sudden jewel
Even manual atlasing takes very little time once you've done it once or twice
15-20min
shut sequoia
at the same time, I think the numbers are a bit strict but I'm hoping that changes since it's still in closed.
worn lantern
How2atlas
safe swift
well, imo the numbers are reasonable, at least public world ones
worn lantern
Honestly though I do need to incorporate that on my Pokemon trainers some time
heady smelt
I think it's a good incentive for people to start caring, just saying 'nobody cares' is over
karmic condor
most of my friends on this game don't have the best pcs. Its important to optimize because otherwise they can't play comfortably.
worn lantern
Atlases materials
shut sequoia
I mean do dynamic bone scripts matter that much? if anything they can help you keep transforms down, if used properly.
sudden jewel
@shut sequoia We're aware of that and I've already suggested we stop tracking component counts in favor of just tracking affected transforms
safe swift
world avatars are fine up until 15, I hope the ranking follows world avatar rules, so it kinda makes sense
sudden jewel
I also want to reiterate that "Very Good" rank is like a gold star
Good is perfectly fine
sweet mason
Yeah still not master atlasing. Sometime give up and end up with 2 materials
sudden jewel
Very Good is like a pat on the back
mint kernel
It has never been good to put people on the doorstep
sudden jewel
.. are you a markov chain bot
storm thistleBOT
shut sequoia
oh, for cloths being 0 1 1 1, does that just mean having 1 shoots you up to Poor? I'm kinda confused there
karmic condor
Something I've been putting off but I should make is a tutorial on how to fix and combine bad texturing on mmd models.
mint kernel
sooner or later something like that will just turn around and people will use the "bad" as a feature for "good" and avatars only like when they are bad, just to put themselves over the system
heady smelt
you misjudge the community
lean kindle
2 materials is still better than 20
karmic condor
everyone is tired of lag
sudden jewel
@mint kernel It honestly sounds like you're projecting quite a bit.
heady smelt
they will have their island of misfit toys and all will end well
shut sequoia
Remember when everyone was going to block everyone of a certain rank and the sky was going to fall when the trust system dropped?
Why do you have so many of these 👀
sudden jewel
i'm in 90+ discord servers and i have nitro
shut sequoia
oof
heady smelt
weird flex but ok 
mint kernel
sudden jewel
💪 
shut sequoia
Yeah, basically that's all I heard here. People freaked out about the trust system splitting everyone up, but basically it's just used to prevent being crashed now lol
heady smelt
shut sequoia
with a few people being jerks, but now they're exposed as beings jerks 👌
I'm hoping this just turns out similar. A lot of freaking out the first few weeks, then it just kinda dies down and becomes a thing. Plus they're giving us chairs probably. Panem et circus.
worn lantern
Hopefully at least
mint kernel
The trust system has stolen a lot of fun, because many spontaneous actions do not work anymore, and people have to beg until their animations or shaders are unlocked
heady smelt
people thought it was a merit badge, but it was security all along, heh
shut sequoia
"Do not work any more" That's false. People who want to see those things? They can always have it on. I, for one, don't care to see a lot of gimmicky things, so I usually choose not to.
lean kindle
yeah i loved getting spontaneously crashed
worn lantern
Again, this guy I asked he was like "I only care if I lag. Anything else is you having a bad PC"
shut sequoia
But if you want to, then keep it turned on. That's your prerogative.
lean kindle
yeah a lot of people seem like that
safe swift
@mint kernel yeah, I loved having screenspace shaders, distortion and other crap in my eyes coinstantly 👌
worn lantern
I'm having terrible reception rn u h
mint kernel
but if you build in the freedom to block things, then why denounce people. the number of animators on the avatar hardly says anything about the controlled animation, even the number of particle systems gives no information about what these particle systems do
worn lantern
Anyway, I want to say that this is a guy who blocks particles because he doesn't think it's possible for someone to optimize a particle.
lean kindle
particles are pretty optimized for what they are
having a bunch of them obviously isn't
heady smelt
it's pretty obvious when a particle system is created to be a nuisance
shut sequoia
Optimizing a particle isn't that hard, as far as I've seen. A lot of the problem is most prefabs, even unity asset store ones, have really bad default settings.
shadows, emissions, etc
lean kindle
light sources, noise, collision 😂 👌
mint kernel
i building a large polygon (1) with one material ... so it must be rated als "SUPER GOOD" and put a Devilish FUR Shader on it ..
heady smelt
now I'm sure you're just trolling
safe swift
yea the animator thing is pretty silly imo, because when you create complex freeze systems, you can have up to dozen+ animators
lean kindle
they can't really analyze shaders
worn lantern
That's kinda his point
mint kernel
This is called sarcasm , not trolling
mint kernel
it only showes up that this system dont help someone, the only thing it does is discriminating
worn lantern
I'm not saying anything
heady smelt
not really, it warns of potentially badly optimized avatars
lean kindle
there's a lot of people that don't realize their avatar is unoptimized
worn lantern
My complaint more lies on I have to make a bunch of my avatars private and choose which ones I want public
shut sequoia
why?
worn lantern
Idc about this avatar ranking thing
shut sequoia
you can just turn off sharing
lean kindle
update helps that, I like the system, but I don't like that it displays the lowest ranking
worn lantern
@shut sequoia I want to share though
mint kernel
potentially .. but that "potentially" will noone see .. they only see "POOR" and "block" ..
heady smelt
that's fine too, it's just a recommendation
shut sequoia
also you can just click them, it's not like you have to reuplaod them to make them public/private. probably takes 5 minutes tops
even with a ton of avatars
heady smelt
not allowing people to choose would be a lot worse
I agree it's not watertight, but it will never be
it's a pretty good indicator
mint kernel
The public display of these details is discriminatory and vindictive
shut sequoia
It's really not that big of a deal, the trust system has shown us that
heady smelt
it's the price of freedom to upload almost anything..
shut sequoia
People thought it was the end of the world and everyone would block everyone, riots in the street, class wars, etc. Nothing. Just a ton of complaining and then no one cared.
mint kernel
the trust system is completely different, because it combines the rank with completely different criteria
shut sequoia
and your worries were 100% the same as the worries for the trust system
People thought that everyone would just block all new people, or people of whatever rank and no one would ever get to see them. The people who wanted to block things blocked them. I turn off animations, I don't care about people's gimmicks. Some people turn off shaders, some turn off particles.
mint kernel
i dont have a problem with the trust system, and i never had one
shut sequoia
If someone doesn't want to see your avatar, they shouldn't be forced to. I don't care how "optimized" it is.
you can have the most optimized anime girl you want and if I don't want to see you I won't.
mint kernel
but i dont like to be missrated with cirerias that are stupid
shut sequoia
Most of the criteria are pretty good, and they're also Not set in stone as we already know for at least scripts.
heady smelt
sure beats the old <20k and anything goes
shut sequoia
People will want to be seen. They'll start fitting within these parameters, which most are proven to prevent lag. Shaders aren't a thing that can be accounted for, for the most part. At least not right now
mint kernel
i dont like the system and the the rating that say"Very Poor - This user probably stole your frames." .. i dont "steal" frames .. This statement is devastating
mint kernel
why that number ? .. unity 2017 have a 32bit mesh index mapping ,
karmic condor
less materials, meshes and skinned mesh renderers mean less potential shader instances so that is pretty cool.
mint kernel
unity 5.6 with 16bit mesh index mapping had that issue
karmic condor
then there is shaders like silent's cubed shader which adds a ton more features to cubed.
so less need for separated materials
shut sequoia
2017 doesn't split meshes until a gajillion
heady smelt
even if you separate materials, one opaque, one transparent, one double sided, one emissive, etc .. you're pretty much covered everything with 4-5 mats
surreal topaz
The new ranking system is dumb because just one category can drag you down to "Poor"
mint kernel
tell the guy responsible for the nameplates
surreal topaz
And I'm pretty sure the new system adds even more drawcalls to nameplates
Can we optimize nameplates before asking people to optimize their models?
still perch
why do the nameplates even take up that much 
heady smelt
because they haven't been improved yet, they're very a very old script from an early player
mint kernel
yes it is funny that what is thrown with the nameplates performance is trying to retract now on the user. Something reminds me of one or the other politician .. because you do something so synonymous .. but in a country where a madman to be elected president can be surprised me anyway not much.
surreal topaz
But didn't they redesign the nameplates a while back? Or was that visual only?
heady smelt
yeah
surreal topaz
I think they should be focusing their attention on there if they wanna make performance improvements
heady smelt
the new icons added more drawcalls 😉
surreal topaz
Since turning nameplates off gives me a huge boost
Yeah, that's what I figured lmao
Like 5 extra or just 1?
heady smelt
eh, 6-7
surreal topaz
Oof holy fucg
heady smelt
don't quote me on that
surreal topaz
We're up to 20+ then huh?
mint kernel
in a world with 20+ users .. turning off nameplates give me 10+ fps
surreal topaz
It's ironic that a performance system only ends up making performance worse
lean kindle
are the icons something they can't atlas/batch or w/e?
heady smelt
sure they can, but it's obvious the priority lies with lousy avatars and I don't blame them
surreal topaz
The public world limits were a pretty great step into that direction already tbh
heady smelt
lagging when I look at one person is a bigger deal to me than nameplates ... it's not like a drawcall automatically means bad performance, they come in a lot of sizes
rendering a sprite is not gonna kill your frames, even if it's 32 of them, sure, they could be batched, but I'm sure that will happen someday
surreal topaz
Yeah but it kinda has to happen soon either way
The IK changes are a great step into optimizing larger rooms at least
heady smelt
they are trying to fix the stuff the player has no influence over, and they give the players tools to fix stuff the players have influence over
my avatars probably show up as poor too, with all the crap I lug around
so be it
all of that won't even be active 99% of the time, so it's up to whoever is around me if they wanna block me
mossy solar
there's only two categories I'm rated poor in for the vast majority of my avatars
mint kernel
Fortunately, there are no major problems, the main thing the stupid chairs come back soon in the avatars, a feature that really nobody needs
heady smelt
oh people have been clamoring for that to be brought back
surreal topaz
Chairs are cool
People have been clamoring for them because it's something new
I doubt the new ones will have the same functionality though
heady smelt
270 canny votes, ofcourse people want it
shut sequoia
lol people have been begging for chairs
heady smelt
^
surreal topaz
Probably no custom sitting animations and can't sit in your own chair
Which would be a shame
shut sequoia
I wonder if you'll still be able to do animation things with them though
#bring-back-portable-dance-stages
surreal topaz
Yeah, that's the thing I'm concerned about
Probably not tbh
They're probably going to be a separate component for avatar chairs
shut sequoia
yeah, that would prevent a lot of abuse
surreal topaz
I think I've only seen a few points of abuse with the past ones, most of which were related to keeping people in chairs or putting them in chairs when they didn't mean to or want to
heady smelt
the main difference is you can get out whenever you like
surreal topaz
And when I was experimenting with dance stages I unticked "seated" and that broke people's animators.
shut sequoia
yeah the distance on them just has to be really tiny, because im still sitting in chairs across certain maps
surreal topaz
Like, they would get out and they would just be T-posed in desktop
And sliding over the floor in VR
Anyway, it seems the name plates are now more than twice over the material limit imposed on public avatars lmao
timber blaze
yikes
shut sequoia
Imagine if you're a mod also, you've got even more
worn lantern
@shut sequoia Actually even the mod tag is already a material on everyone's nameplates
karmic condor
hopefully the icons are on a sprite-sheet so its one draw call.
worn lantern
It just never shows
heady smelt
yeah it's one spritesheet
shut sequoia
👀
heady smelt
but it's not one drawcall 😄
worn lantern
Because it's a bunch of materials
karmic condor
well shoot
surreal topaz
@shut sequoia I don't think it's more if you're a mod
The inactive stuff still gets drawn I believe
karmic condor
goodnight everybody
heady smelt
night akalink
heady smelt
well shoot
sweet mason
Idk i got a model that is 40k, 5 materials and one mesh. We where only 5 with it and it was laggy asf
shut sequoia
probably wasn't the materials or polys doing it
most likely dynamic bones, colliders, etc.
timber blaze
that or some very very bad shaders
timber blaze
a 20 pass fur shader counts as a bad shader
velvet spoke
Noenoe or xiexes, cubed is fine aswell
Its personal preference
But one of those is your best bet
sweet mason
I manly use mobile asset. So they have fake shadow on the texture so no need to have an nother one. And i like to put outline. Make them pop more
shut sequoia
yeah, then either everyone in the room has a potato or something else is wrong. im routinely in rooms with a few unoptimized avatars when its just friends and manage 60+ just fine, so a 40k/5mat avatar shouldn't be lagging anyone
candid sedge
i run on a potato with vr and its only when something unholy joins the room it gets bad...
smoky lantern
Wondering if not only acknowledging the poly count limit, but also coming out and saying they're raising it means that we're getting closer to them actually enforcing it in the same way they've started actively enforcing Avatar World's optimization. Maybe it'll be actively enforced with Avatar Worlds first? Before now, it's been swept under the rug or actively avoided. The timing is just coincidental maybe? 70k is pretty generous though. I will say that.
velvet spoke
They are planning the shittiest avatar ranking system ever.
VRChat - We'll fuck it up in some way.
candid sedge
other than the 0 0 0 32 thing whats the problem?
i dont really understand what the collider numbers are about just looks a bit wrong?
velvet spoke
avatar bounds being taken into consideration that have no effect on avatar performance, poly limit being taken into consideration that has no effect on this level.
colliders levels being completely unrealistic.
It taking lowest value instead of average
surreal topaz
It's the fact that scoring badly in one category makes you "poor" no matter what
velvet spoke
^
surreal topaz
Even if that is inconsequential
candid sedge
ya it looked a bit messed up
surreal topaz
I have 1 material, 1 mesh, 15 dynbones. But OH nOEsS!! 3 audio sources
velvet spoke
You can have the stuff that actually matters optimized, but then you have a high poly count which has no effect on performance whatsoever and you get ranked poor.
candid sedge
with the 0 to just 32
velvet spoke
1 material, 1 mesh, UH OH? IS THAT 70K POLYS? PoOR
surreal topaz
"We're raising the poly limit but you'll be shamed for using it"
Wanna take a bet that they'll introduce auto blocking of "poor" avatars?
Nope
They're just slapping limits on any component
Or even better, if you use emote toggles
Every toggle is two animators
Which are also marked for performance
A lot of my avatars will end up "poor" in some way, so no reason to keep optimizing them I guess
velvet spoke
The whole system is like the first revision of the public limits, its a good concept but once again the actual numbers and planning are off and nowhere near realistic and some values shouldnt even be taken into consideration.
Yeah but even then, putting those values into consideration just shows that they have no idea of their own playerbase.
Nor values that make sense
0 dyn bones is something you cant expect of people
and 2 colliders is also something that should be okay.
they are performance hungry but if everyone keeps them on 2 its fine.
surreal topaz
Also depends on how the colliders are set up
I have a model that would score very well in just about every category, but it has one dynamic bone collider
This collider is in the left hand and affects two bones
velvet spoke
Shaders are hard to analyze since they get compiled on runtime.
and you cant generalize 2 shaders = bad performance
They actually used their brain there to not take that into consideration since they cant really determine it
but they should do something if the shader name is starnest give poor ranking 
surreal topaz
Yes, but that can't be checked by automated systems
velvet spoke
Yes but you cant generalize shaders like that.
it cant be checked, they get compiled.
shut sequoia
tHe NuMbErs AreNt In StOnE
velvet spoke
they would need to force future proofing to analyze used shaders and then everyone would complain about long uploads
surreal topaz
Automatic shader analysis sounds like a nightmare
This whole automated system is bad lmao
velvet spoke
Yeah it does
its horrible
check materials and meshes and dyn bone colliders
then we fine
shut sequoia
it could very well end up being just that
velvet spoke
im just waiting for the extra lag the analysis creates
Moves voip to its own thread to reduce lag just to introduce realtime avatar analysis Kappa
shut sequoia
realtime? its not tho
shut sequoia
also dynamic bone colliders only put you at Poor if it's at liek 30
velvet spoke
No dyn bone colliders put you on poor if you use one
surreal topaz
Actually
shut sequoia
ackshually
surreal topaz
The extra performance ranks added to your nameplate will incur an additional 5-6 drawcalls
shut sequoia
surreal topaz
So nameplates are now more than 20 drawcalls
That's over twice the maximum we are allowed to have on public avatars
shut sequoia
wait why bother putting 32 then?
velvet spoke
because after that ur prolly not allowed to upload anymore
candid sedge
thats what i was thinking
shut sequoia
oh right that's a hardcap later too
velvet spoke
Dude if they hard force the 70k poly limit i will fucking scream
velvet spoke
imagine limiting the one thing that has no impact on performance whatsoever
surreal topaz
Nuance doesn't matter, a single collider means you are poorly optimized.
shut sequoia
either way though, literally none of these numbers are set in stone
shut sequoia
yes and things change forehead
velvet spoke
no
surreal topaz
Lol
velvet spoke
they dont
velvet spoke
the only thing that ever changed was veteran being removed but that was un ignorable the outcry was so gigantic
shut sequoia
https://puu.sh/CiXR0/3ed7aca060.png there's at least acknowledgment being made
shut sequoia
that's scripts specifically. if one thing is noted it means other things can be noted as well and change
surreal topaz
I have a lot of little accessories that are like 1 or 2 bones
shut sequoia
The fact one thing isn't set in stone pretty much shows that it's not all set in stone...
surreal topaz
But a lot of it is
Tupper also said he suggested increasing the poly limit and that took a year.
velvet spoke
you already know the poly limit will stay, they have been enforcing that shit forever
70k hard limit sounds yikes
shut sequoia
i think the notes mentioned that not being the only thing hardcapped in the future
surreal topaz
They also "suggested" a lot more but some of that plainly is not happening
velvet spoke
And also closing that canny post is just yikes, i dont see a reason to shut down discussion about the current numbers with "there was no beta hurrdurr wait for beta"
Or about the system in general
it could give them valuable information that could already be used for the first beta
surreal topaz
"Don't speak out of turn you plebs"
velvet spoke
Yeah basically that
surreal topaz
They only take feedback properly in the closed beta, and only yes-men get into the closed betas
surreal topaz
So you can take stuff you were gonna do anyway and then mark it as "in progress"
velvet spoke
the closed beta is only for people that are already getting privileges and they dont wanna lose them so they just say yes.
its such a joke
surreal topaz
I know several people who are in closed betas and only two of them are willing to criticize anything
The devs seem to surround themselves solely with people who agree with them
velvet spoke
I mean its a recurring theme isnt it
Take beta testers that dont actually test stuff, have mods in the discord that dont mod, make betas where you dont listen to feedback
surreal topaz
Lmao
velvet spoke
They pretend to care but just do their own thing anyway
Like why even have feedback platforms at this point
shut sequoia
There's literally people willing to see how much they can take advantage of stuff in the betas, and it's the same ones i see doing it after launch and getting features removed lol
something tells me those people arent in betas
velvet spoke
wouldnt be surprised if there was a beta channel modified client
But im glad the important stuff is being taken care of instead
like not fixing photon exploits but finally adding a ranking system
so we can soon have the "who has the most decimated and unusable avatar in the game" leaderboard
is it gonna be displayed in the pug? Find out soon.
shut sequoia
yall mind if I -Could not log in - "Unauthorized"
surreal topaz
Yep
velvet spoke
Hey guys have you seen the new avatar ran- VRChat Logo spinning - Please login to VRChat.
smoky lantern
Secretly, they only raised the limit because that Digi Cirno Tupper uses now has been over 20k this whole time?
Digi's great and everything, but he doesn't do <20k.
Not with that quality.
still perch
Tupper knows how to optimize tho
smoky lantern
Uh, so?.. "SDK says 20k". You told me the same thing recently.
shut sequoia
he's 60k im pretty sure
having a model over 60k isn't against the rules specifically, modding the SDK is
who's to say there isn't a dev SDK with a 9999999 limit?
still perch
Who knows. If he has a dev sdk without the limit then it's fine
Soon that big complaining should soon be over...
shut sequoia
even if he doesn't you can't really prove otherwise lol
solid bane
What im interested in is if that avatar performance feature will be utilized to detect modded sdks
shut sequoia
nope, probably not
hard limits are coming in the future, not right now though
i do like how they flat out acknowledge modding of the SDK in patch notes though lol
velvet spoke
Yeah the big complaining will be over with an even shittier limiting system 
solid bane
its like putting a blanket over a bomb
velvet spoke
In the way they are doing it yes
its horrible
And especially limiting stuff that doesnt matter cough bounds and polys
velvet spoke
Oh really?
shut sequoia
nothing prevents you from uploading
still perch
Polys matte
velvet spoke
Ron himself said in a lobby i was in Polys dont fucking matter.
shut sequoia
weeks etc
i dunno im sure polys matter to some degree, and 10 people in a room at 70k is already a lot, not counting the people who go over that
still perch
That's what I'm saying. It becomes a matter at some point.
shut sequoia
it doesn't seem like that big a deal to limit them, people always shit talk others that come in here wanting 100k or 80k eetc, and usually suggested 50-60k
it seems like more of a matter of principal too. you really don't need to go higher than that, you shouldn't need to at least
20 people at 70k in a pug, on top of voip, ik, network, dynamic bones, colliders, meshes, cloth, particles, shaders, cameras
i feel like it matters the least but it still matters
still perch
filesize
velvet spoke
Decent res terrain in modern unity games can take up anywhere from 3 to 5 mil polys leading to an average of about 8 to 11 million polys in view at once.
Now tell me 70k is a good limit.
tight basin
Filesize over 9000 😮
velvet spoke
same goes for dynamic bone colliders
anything above 0 is poor optimization
which cant be generalized like that
it depends on how the colliders are setup
how many bones they affect in total and co
audio sources are apparently poor optimization too now
Animators are poor optimization
the whole system is just once again taking the wrong things into consideration
shut sequoia
i dont see most of these things staying the same so i can't really say anything other than that lol
velvet spoke
I dont have any reason to believe they will change, its been the same with multiple beta stages where they said "not final" and so far it has been a single time something has changed, and that was removing a single rank in the safety system
and as rokk already said
closed beta testers are yes men.
solid bane
Well, collect 50 people in 1 Room and the random crashes start happening
not sure why
shut sequoia
IK
velvet spoke
The Ik system
solid bane
but we crashed until there were about 20 people left
velvet spoke
Theres a reason the worlds are so limited, the IK system will kill you
shut sequoia
yeah, it's in the patch notes
velvet spoke
we used to be okay back in the day as desktop doesnt seem to be as heavy on performance and we all didnt have vr.
but now you cant do that anymore
shut sequoia
Right now, your computer handles all the IK calculations for everyone in the room.
In the beta, you only do your own, and then that's sent to everyone else in the room
shut sequoia
should help a lot honestly, though im not sure what effect it'll have with syncing movements up right
velvet spoke
I mean sending calculated values is easier than having to calculate all the time
should have a giant performance impact.
solid bane
well, local calc sent to others should have a positive sync effect
velvet spoke
and synced stuff should be fine too as long as servers dont spazz out
solid bane
yep
shut sequoia
this is probably going to be the biggest performance boost we've seen and will see for a long time
shut sequoia
Yeah that was noticeable, and it's liek third on the list of "game stuff" that lags
i genuinely can't fathom how much this will help once it actually works
solid bane
oh, tbh, vrc 2018 boosted my performance like crazy already
shut sequoia
yeah because of the VOIP
solid bane
my biggest problem ingame are the avatars
i cant pick what i want to
cuz the menu goes insane
shut sequoia
It seems like they're removing stress from one area to mitigate the stress other things cause, which isn't terrible but not ideal whatsoever
fix the engine-related problems and a lot of things don't matter nearly as much
surreal topaz
Yep
solid bane
true
surreal topaz
Avatars should be optimized but they're focusing too heavily on avatars
Fix the nameplates first
shut sequoia
As for the limits, it makes me think they want to set up the framework now as opposed to another year from now
If we had these limits a year ago, i'm pretty sure we'd be in a much better place right now since they would've been adjusted accordingly
instead we just had wild west uploading with 10 colliders, 200 dynamic bones, etc because no one actually bothered to tell us otherwise
velvet spoke
@surreal topaz Do you think we are allowed to talk about the cough obfuscation cough
shut sequoia
Like there's posts here and there on sites like VRCats or in the discord, or randomly inserted into Tupper not-official hour long VRChat mmd tutorial, but there wasn't much "OK guys here's the shit you can stop doing" at all
velvet spoke
As rokk said a long time ago, we need an updated mega tut
shut sequoia
Like imagine if we had this push for optimization 9 months ago when the boom was winding down and the more permanent members were starting to settle into the game. 9 months ago they could've came out with this optimization guide we got a few weeks ago, which are _all things Tupper put on his VRCat post about "what lags us" the most. It's things that were flat out known.
hushed vortex
This new system is dangerously close to blocking avas with lowest ranking. And its sooo easy to get there with new rules, as they take inactive and unimportant things into account too.
shut sequoia
as far as I know, Tupper's a community guy and not a dev but is pretty knowledgeable about the engine anyway, but it feels like they didn't listen to him as much as they should have
velvet spoke
Tupper is the community manager yea, but still he knows his stuff around avatars and optimization
sadly the leaders seem to be prone to ignoring
useful advice
shut sequoia
yeah actually i found some old post while looking for a post he made previously, lemme see if i can find it. it was pretty interesting
solid bane
@hushed vortex wait wdym by that
can people block avatars with a certain optimization value?
or above / below
solid bane
that would succ
hushed vortex
Not yet but i assume this may be next step
solid bane
Isnt that pretty much raising the avatar learning curve to the next level?
hushed vortex
It is. Also trashing and punishing people with complex avatars
rain ivy
is someone able to explain why physics colliders have such a heavy penalty on avatars in the performance table?
velvet spoke
Because dynamic bone colliders are constantly doing calculations
even when not touching anything
they are super performance heavy
rain ivy
I can get rid of all my dynamic bone colliders but I use 2 primitive colliders on my avatar
no physics colliders not dynamic bone colliders
velvet spoke
cause the same basically goes for any colliders
rain ivy
dynamic bone colliders I understand because of its custom collision logic, but primitives in unity run just fine
I wonder if its networking related
shut sequoia
cant find it now but i found this gem https://puu.sh/CiZoe/09eeab329e.png
@sudden zodiac :3
solid bane
tru
velvet spoke
smoky lantern
I think most things are exaggerated. They're counting on us not knowing how a game functions. 😕
Js.
solid bane
what wouldnt hurt would be to raise the performance limit with the ranks, so trusted users are expected to optimize a bit more than a new user
velvet spoke
curb your enthusiasm theme plays
shut sequoia
https://puu.sh/CiZpK/bc5b14f6d1.png and this one, which we're coming up on and not meant as a jab at all since opinions do change lol
They're counting on it, Breathe, but they weren't doing much to inform us until these last few months
I can't imagine it would be hard to release the optimization guide a year ago or even after the boom. I get they're busy, but it's basically just paragraphs of things people have been saying but didn't have a big enough audience to say it to
they've known, or at the very, very least, Tupper has known as far back as November. not saying any of it at all is his fault, but did no one listen to him at all?
I hate to sound like I'm trying to make him seem like a martyr or something but it really feels like he is/has been fighting an uphill battle against the other devs
solid bane
Tuppy best admin
velvet spoke
I mean the way stuff and features in this game are handled i wouldnt be surprised if they didnt listen to their own people
They showed multiple times they dont care about the communities opinion
smoky lantern
Tupper's Queen of England. Calm down.
velvet spoke
same goes for their employees i guess
smoky lantern
His input is probably just noted.
He's probably more of a punching bag than he ought to be. He doesn't do or affect all these things he's called out for. He's not developing the game. He just has to put up with our complaints and try to sate us.
shut sequoia
https://puu.sh/CiZxW/ad63ca3427.png literally just shit liek this, everyone was saying it even back then
and the post from some of the Yellows im seeing from back then are a bit uhhh....Well "out of touch" is what I'll say so I don't get yeeted
velvet spoke
discord search cant find it
shut sequoia
wut
shut sequoia
why cant i find it etiher wtf lol
velvet spoke
d e l e t e d
shut sequoia
ok search from:jazneo wtih "going to get people"
for some reason i cant find the first few words but the post is there
read through that. I wouldn't take too much of it to heart now since a lot has changed, but it gives you an idea of the uphill battle there was and probably still is
velvet spoke
yikes
shut sequoia
it's really bad, right?
shut sequoia
A lot of people just meme "o tupper is god" but i genuinely feel like he's one of the only people looking out for us
at least outwardly
im sure there's others that either don't want to speak up or have tried and didn't get anywhere
velvet spoke
I mean hes said some pretty stupid shit too, but he at least seems like the most approachable that actually does stuff for the community
shut sequoia
yeah absolutely, he's not perfect
shut sequoia
not expecting anyone to be lol
tough warren
imagine if this game had to run on standalone headsets like the oculus go lol
no dynamic bones, no particles, mobile diffuse shader only
1 material
1 mesh
polygon limit of like 3k or something
marsh trail
Pain.wav
solid bane
i meeean, vrc clearly isnt built for that
marsh trail
Doable but, ouch
solid bane
yep
buuut
imagine meeting a kanna
and you take off the ar goggles
aaaand
well, you know whats coming
marsh trail
It's totally a kanna
heady smelt
Oh God
tough warren
getting off track here
solid bane
heh tru
floral plover
hello world, I have a problem :
I used a non-unity software to creat a realistic avatar (make human)
In this software I have the choice to save my 3d model in dae, fbx, wavefont obj, stl and BVH.
the 3d model in make human has a RIG .
But When I save it and upload it to unity it says it have no rig.
Do someone know how I can proceed ?
tough warren
save as .fbx
floral plover
that's what I do but the rig don't load in unity
tough warren
hmmm
floral plover
in make human it says BVH is a rig format. But I can't open BVH in unity
nore used it to load a rig in my fbx object
tough warren
you might be able to mixamo rig the model
solid bane
Get the fbx
Rig via mixamo
And apply textures back in unity
If it doesnt do that itself
tough warren
you dont need to apply textures in mixamo
floral plover
When I try to apply texture in unity the whole model use only the last texture I select even If I select 1 part of the model
oh I found a way
ok
so if I chose my save file in an existing unity project, everything load
thanks for the interest ^^
tough warren
@floral plover thanks for mentioning makehuman btw, i had never heard of it but now i'm going to be the most savage baby in vrchat.
floral plover
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/51/1/1545057579-mh.jpg
I think giving me this software was a mistake
I have a nother problem tho, When I open a new project and load the vrcsdk public (I dowload the update one) I only have "clear cache" in the sdk tab menu
does someone know how to install it properly ?
vague hearth
@floral plover close unity, go to Assets project folder and remove vrcsdk folder with vrcsdk.meta file, reopen unity and import sdk again
floral plover
ok I'm trying
worn lantern
Cross what are these beasts
floral plover
it's still not loading
vague hearth
@floral plover are you sure unity is 2017 version and not 
floral plover
I used the "search for update" in unity and it says I'm update
but it's 5.6 on top
and i download it like 20 days ego so it's should be 2017 right ?
worn lantern
2017.4.15f1
vague hearth
floral plover
ok i'm trying that
polar bolt
If it says up to date it's probably wrong version - closely check the last numbers in your vs 15f1
hearty galleon
So, about this Performance Ranking system i think the Very Good Rank is a bit limited
shut sequoia
they all are, honestly
hearty galleon
So if i have for example on particle in a character it goes to good
shut sequoia
the numbers they've got set up now are pretty bad, but im expecting them to change
hearty galleon
The whole thing is actually good imo but i think they could get some things a bit up
In very good we cant even get particles
At least 1 particle system
Well i dont know if it would heavly impact performance the physics Colliders and particles and 1 or 2 dynamic bones in the very good performance
surreal topaz
Same, I have an avatar with two emote toggles. That's more than 4 animators total and will therefore be "medium" on that alone
hearty galleon
I have one last question
For example if i have everything in very good except polygons, like 50k polys will i be on medium or will it average everything?
surreal topaz
It isn't averaged right now
If you have 50001 polygons, you will be marked as "poor" no matter what
shut sequoia
yeah makes more sense for users to just judge avatars on their own
hearty galleon
I really hope it gets averaged in the future
shut sequoia
unless numbers are adjusted
worn lantern
I just want this whole thing saying "Good" or "Bad" to be gone
Sure we can keep avatar statistics
vague hearth
@hearty galleon sounds like 70k polys will be a new limit, so 50k 🤔
shut sequoia
i mean if it's properly judged, "good" and "bad" are ok
surreal topaz
And I want it to not take up 21 drawcalls for a nameplate
shut sequoia
no? no it doesn't. If it's properly done then it's fine
shut sequoia
that's all they need to do is change numbers up and remove some categories altogether
there's some worlds I can't wait to go to in beta though
worn lantern
Like audio
hearty galleon
The bounds size looks okay
worn lantern
Why is bound size a thing
surreal topaz
There are so many things that shouldn't be a thing lol
Larger bounds means on average your meshes will be culled less often
hearty galleon
I actually like the system its just not balanced
surreal topaz
That was their initial plan for the bound size limit
You can have a huge avatar as long as the bounding box isn't too big
It just doesn't make sense that an object far away will make the bounds stupidly large
It's optimization related in their eyes, and in some ways it is
worn lantern
In a way yea it is
For culling reasons
But to have a bounding box say whether your avatar is poorly optimized
That and audio is where I draw the line
Everything else is fine by me.
surreal topaz
Too much audio can lag quite a bit
I remember joining on an instance of Christmas Sky Mirror, someone spammed so many audio sources that half the people just crashed
surreal topaz
Oof
worn lantern
Remember Mobi1eGamer doesn't know optimization too well
mossy solar
each audio source is considered a draw call
worn lantern
Guy knows how to model and all that
Is the audio source always a drawcall or only upon awake
polar bolt
Calling audio source a draw call... 🤦
velvet spoke
How are audio sources a draw call, theres no visual draw that can happen
Its a calculation for sure
But not a drawcall
Theres no graphics rendering happening
Like wha
surreal topaz
Pretty sure he means they're on par with drawcalls as far as performance impact goes
Just like how a dynamic bone transform essentially counts again for every collider it responds to
polar bolt
In some sense yes, the perf hit comes from audio needing to be go through spatializer and the downmixed with the rest, but thats purely CPU task. Drawcalls are a hit from the data synchronization between CPU and GPU since rendering isn't fully asynchronous.
(Someone that know unity pipeline please deny if wrong)
amber hemlock
1 skinned mesh. 0 dyn bones/collisders, 2 materials, 1 texture. 66k verts. Poor. Dang might as well be my unoptimized one lol
worn lantern
@amber hemlock Verts or polygons
shut sequoia
yeah my thinking right now like "well the bar is set way too high, might as well be down low with everyone else"
surreal topaz
Yep
shut sequoia
with the way avatar rules are now, world avatars shouldn't even be anything past "Medium". Most people shouldn't be, honestly.
that's what they need to use as a baseline imo
lean relic
how do audio still play on avatar . how do that?
shut sequoia
youre better of looking up a guide on youtube than getting an answer here since its a bit of an involved process
surreal topaz
What's also interesting is that adding additional IK components (especially VR and FBBIK) to your avatar is one of the laggiest things you can do
And yet that is not covered at all
The lag was bad enough to send people back to SteamVR load for 1-2 seconds when we were messing around with footstep triggers, we narrowed it down to additional IK being activated
polar bolt
☝
amber hemlock
Wait are we planning on floating “bad” over peoples heads or on details in game because that is a terrrrible idea
surreal topaz
Well no, it'll be a red star @amber hemlock
And ironically those stars will add more drawcalls to the nameplates.
amber hemlock
Rip vrc
SL did this it was never ending drama lol
Lots of bullying
Public areas became toxic so people stopped using them and just stuck with private communities where no one cared
hushed vortex
I feel like pushing into privs is what devs truely want sometimes
marsh trail
It does dun' it
Welp i already mostly stuck to private instances myself so meh, guess it won't hit me as much
Everybody else tho...
karmic condor
I’ve been tracking my world stats. It seems half of people visit it in some form of private instance.
amber hemlock
Well time will show if it works if it hurts vrc I’m sure the devs will revert it
It will certainly be effective at making self conscious people stay away from public so it will only be non self conscious people in public lol
worn lantern
I'll still be in Public regardless
And adding a star on people based on their avatar
It'll just pose the same problem as the Trust system did
And also, a system like this is exceptionally flawed
It's basically asking us to have literally nothing on our avatar other than a Humanoid skeleton and a low poly mesh
Nothing else
smoky lantern
Discrimination and segregation are totally social highlights.
worn lantern
Else you be shunned for daring touching an audio source or dynamic bones.
amber hemlock
History repeats itself I’ve seen it all already XP
smoky lantern
Making these things front-facing is the issue. It's thoughtless.
worn lantern
Yea, the only potential this platform has at this point is the community
I've seen the devs, how they won't listen to the users, even after a canny post
Rokk said it himself, feature requests don't matter
The devs have a fixed view for what they want
amber hemlock
You want badly optimized avatars inconvienene you but not in a social publicly visible way
worn lantern
And they will only respond to canny posts they feel fit their vision
Also I do propose they keep the ability to look at avatar statistics
But get rid of the ranking system for them
polar bolt
Uhmm, that is not open beta, so I don't think general ranting on the system belngs in this cahnnel.
smoky lantern
It should be on inspect. Not first glance.
worn lantern
Yes, but think about the average user
What they see is a glimmering red star, they will immediately think
amber hemlock
I mean I’m not saying it won’t be effective
worn lantern
"Unoptimized! BLOCKBLOCKBLOCKBLOCK"
amber hemlock
I will absolutely destroy my avatar to get it to whatever the best rating is
smoky lantern
Public shaming is effective. Just antisocial.
worn lantern
Adeon, I will say you can do that if you want, but the system that will outright tell people "Hey this person has a bad avatar"
That's what I'm saying I have a problem with here
I will reiterate, I do agree the statistics system is a good idea
Just nothing else about it
amber hemlock
But the difference between us and most other users is we know how to edit avatars
Most just use what they like and will get bullied for it
Leading to a bad experience with the game and community
smoky lantern
Reaching.
polar bolt
Not "has bad avatar" but "avatar is heavy on your framerate" No wonder it's currently difficult being in public world without blocking avatars just to not drop below 45 frames even on high-end hardware
worn lantern
But this system at its current state will tell you what avatars it thinks is unoptimized already, there for you will have to block it
smoky lantern
Oh no
worn lantern
Manually, I might add
polar bolt
Note the values there are not final its not even out for public
surreal topaz
We're speaking from experience when we say that these values are unlikely to change
They said the same thing about the particle limiter and the trust system as a whole
polar bolt
Kinda have to agree to Rokk though
smoky lantern
If you block your next best friend over some frame loss, it's your own problem. 😕
heady smelt
just let me turn off dynamic bones on people and I don't mind the ratings
surreal topaz
@smoky lantern that's what people said about the trust system too, but the effects are wider than that
worn lantern
Last time I will say this, since I'm a broken record at this point, the feature that will allow you to see avatar statistics alone is already pretty good, only thing is they are relying on an automated system to tell users if am avatar is unoptimized
surreal topaz
Just like new players are lead to believe that turning everything into ugly shaders is "safe", now they are also lead to believe that X is making them lag.
heady smelt
meshes and mats are not the biggest deal with avatars made by people who've done that for a while
worn lantern
Using a vague ranking system
Inb4 we can only use empty game objects
It's gonna happen
gleaming yacht
I think you guys are over reacting
visual tinsel
Dunno why y'all are hissy fitting over when it's not even in open beta (or released).
smoky lantern
I stand by my idea that it should only be on inspect. Not on a big billboard. Same with the trust rank. Make it text only and get rid of the colors.
surreal topaz
Yep, I agree
surreal topaz
@visual tinsel it's on the public docs so people will respond to it
Maybe they should take feedback from more than just their inner circle
¯_(ツ)_/¯
visual tinsel
They're also not set in stone.
heady smelt
we had the same uproar with the particle limiter and the security system, both were changed <<<
worn lantern
For me, get rid of the optimization text and w/e entirely
surreal topaz
I think the only changes they did to the trust system is removing veteran
All the other concerns were ignored (visible nameplates, weird defaults)
amber hemlock
@smoky lantern 11 years working with virtual world communities I know how these things always play out
smoky lantern
No, the average user needs to understand what is right and wrong. Keep it, but make it less blatant and irresponsible.
heady smelt
a lot of fallback stuff was changed too, due to demand
surreal topaz
I think they just did away with whitelisting external shaders
visual tinsel
Also, if it was on inspect, I have to inspect all 30 people in a room??!?!
smoky lantern
Or not.
worn lantern
I would prefer that myself
smoky lantern
Social is inspect.
surreal topaz
Well the point with the trust system was that you weren't supposed to inspect everyone at all
As for the optimization system, I dunno
visual tinsel
So I have to scroll through 30 people? the menu isn't that fun to scroll through.
smoky lantern
It makes it easier to just block the dude that's learning. I get it.
mossy solar
they should just blacklist dynamic bones if they hate it so much
surreal topaz
Dynamic bone is too ingrained for it to go away
They should look into supporting VRM and other alternatives
Would give them a large portion of the asian market too
heady smelt
why leave all the memes to the mods who test avatars worlds? now you can experience first hand how bad things can get 😄
smoky lantern
No, they need to do their own DB as they are with UDON instead of using PM.
surreal topaz
The problem with dynamic bone is that it's unoptimized. It's quite good at what it does otherwise
I don't know if the devs would be capable of making something that is noticeably more optimized
Why reinvent the wheel
surreal topaz
I also think dynamic bone wasn't exactly made for hundreds of skirt bones
So a different system would be cool
heady smelt
^ or 12 colliders
worn lantern
One thing that I'd change if it were up to me, a certain property of an avatar shooting all the way to the end of the chart should not classify the entire avatar as poorly optimized
smoky lantern
DB wasn't made for anything so small scale.
surreal topaz
Well, there's two things about that Eevee
heady smelt
people just stringing colliders so their skirt or hair doesn't clip
surreal topaz
If I have 10k dynamic bones I should absolutely be marked poorly optimized even if I have 1 mesh and 1 material
worn lantern
10643
surreal topaz
But having 50001 polys should not bump me from good to poor
worn lantern
Yea
surreal topaz
So it should be more like a points system like I suggested from the start
visual tinsel
Wouldn't weight be a better term?
surreal topaz
That way people are also more inclined to optimize their colliders. For example, having a separate dynamic bone component for the front of the skirt, so that only the front responds to colliders.
Weight is also fine
smoky lantern
I'll just be a poor avatar. I couldn't care less, really. If people miss out, they miss out. Just like blocking shaders over fear mongering. People get crashed occasionally? It's getting out of hand.
polar bolt
Weighted summing-based, yes
Rembers the first few days of mess the beta channel was when trust sytem hit shivers
worn lantern
Lmao
tough warren
anyone know where the link to the avatar performance rating chart is?
worn lantern
"Why am I not veteran REEEEEEEE"
surreal topaz
People should visit publics more often
mossy solar
I had a malicious shader blocked in a public pug over the weekened
alot of people were complaining about it
and all I seen was a green spherer
worn lantern
Wait what was the shader doing to them then?
mossy solar
probably panosphere
smoky lantern
I'd rather use panic when things get ugly rather than just block all the good guys by default out of fear.
visual tinsel
🤔
visual tinsel
Sounds like it wasn't malicious at all. lol
tough warren
it doesn't matter your intentions, a laggy avatar is a laggy avatar
surreal topaz
Because I tested a shader and it did that by accident, force closed my game because I couldn't see my menu
In the pug
mossy solar
usual complaints about panosphere stuff
surreal topaz
Ah I guess it wasn't me since it was a green sphere
I always get complaints about purple capsules
smoky lantern
Or just use the shortcut keystroke to switch to the default robot locally then change yourself.
surreal topaz
@visual tinsel I know, but
Since I'm trusted it would have shown up purple if that were me
Or I assume at least
visual tinsel
True, I usually forget what mode I'm in.
worn lantern
The weird metallic shader you see when you block someone's shader
heady smelt
?
visual tinsel
Matcap
worn lantern
The color of the metal corresponds to what rank they are
mossy solar
ugh i might as well set up a model with no dynamic bones and nothing else but the base model and skeleton
surreal topaz
Yeah
worn lantern
Is it really matcap?
visual tinsel
Yes.
heady smelt
envmap ye
visual tinsel
Well they name it "matcap" but ¯_(ツ)_/¯
surreal topaz
I tried playing with my rank hidden but too many people mentioned opaque green glasses, green capsules, and clipping jackets. Or flashbang bloom if I used cloth.
worn lantern
Kol