vrchat-general-2

[languid beacon]

Are you sure? Tupper didn't comment that he read it, how do you know?

[small wing]

we snappin in here

[coarse blaze]

yesterday literally everyone said that they do the opposite lul

[small wing]

🤌

[sharp rose]

"Seen: 1:14pm PST"

[midnight obsidian]

Listen-

[exotic ether]

Its like getting a new car each time it happens

[vocal shard]

Add a discord emote specifically so tupper can mark messages as read

[ivory thunder]

Bans person who made the fix, Devs: “Oh yeah we fixed it ! So stop bitching!”

[midnight obsidian]

They can't just always tell what they're working on. Sometimes a bug is hard to even see WHY it bugs, let alone to fix it. ;P

[coarse blaze]

coco it's not worth it

[midnight obsidian]

I'm trying to keep hope..

[coarse blaze]

you haven't been here yesterday

[midnight obsidian]

BRO

[coarse blaze]

there is no hope at all

[worldly summit]

all hope is lost, panic

[small wing]

Dunno why this is a discussion when both sides always adamantly disagree no matter what xD

[exotic ether]

Now when will adavnced safety come? -u-

[small wing]

This energy could be spent eating cookies or something yet yall torture yourselves arguing in here xD

[ivory thunder]

Well they banned that mod creator too didnt they? So probably in a week once we “forget” about it

[exotic ether]

Id like to NOT die even when I have a person hidden -u-

[coarse blaze]

I'm eating a kebab while typing

[small wing]

ooo nice

[vocal shard]

ngl whenever this game bugs or stops working, everyone comes here to insult the mods

[small wing]

i like kebab gimme

[exotic ether]

Bubble Tea is amazing btw

[whole notch]

I have a question

[tiny vine]

Is it? What kind of flavors does bubble tea even have?

[coarse blaze]

bubble tea is just tea with candies at the bottom lol

[tiny vine]

rocks & rocks + sprinkled with more rocks?

[small wing]

that sounds oddly nice

[stone current]

why was a 4 day long bug fix from 3 years ago fixed only now?

[midnight obsidian]

..i figured out why.

[small wing]

i might try that next time i get a chance now lol, bubble tea sounds calming.

[midnight obsidian]

They let the community fix it for them-

[vale pecan]

In 4 days, no less!

[stone current]

vrchat devs sus

[midnight obsidian]

We are their slaves uwu

[exotic ether]

Nuuu its different depending on where you get it

[tiny vine]

i'd make bubble tea I have the stuff in shops near me, but... It honestly sounds like a hassle for just one drink

[small wing]

I always assumed it was just carbonated tea or something

[ivory thunder]

I love how everyone is trying to change the subject when the devs literally just stole code, banned the creator of said code, and than claim that they fixed the issue without giving the creator of said code credit.

[small wing]

lol i just like tea man wym?

[tropic crater]

Was the community fix open source?

[exotic ether]

I know , i jus really like Boba Tea -u-

[tropic crater]

Just trying to figure this out

[twin shale]

Stole code? Where did that come from? How do you even know that happened

[midnight obsidian]

I'm pretty sure most community mods are open source

[vale pecan]

Yes it was! Open source licenses don't always allow implementation into commercial products, though.

[honest forge]

bro, they made caffeinated sparkling water

[small wing]

i chose to talk about what i want to talk about, which right now i am oddly fascinated with bubble tea. 👀

[worldly summit]

Were opensource till VRC blackmailed them :)

[tropic crater]

Because the amount of time to fix a bug in this manor can be the difference between a work around or a rework of current systems to more appropriately fix it (causing a long fix time)

[ivory thunder]

Its a little sus that the mod creator of the 20FPS thing gets banned, and than all the sudden the devs fixed the issue

[tropic crater]

I see

[vale pecan]

Also true, although Blackmail is the incorrect term. Extortion is more accurate.

[sharp saddle]

Will you guys give it a damned break?

[ivory thunder]

Nope.

[midnight obsidian]

I really don't care if they steal code or anything

[vocal shard]

no : )

[midnight obsidian]

I just want the game to run better

[small wing]

sips bubble tea

[vocal shard]

they're having a discussion, whats the issue?

[coarse blaze]

a discussion that lasted for 30 hours last time it happened

[languid beacon]

Coercion is the correct term. And it's very useful in getting people to play by the rules. Totally legit and fair game.

[coarse blaze]

and had multiple people banned because they were dumb

[sharp saddle]

^

[vocal shard]

Just because you don't like the discussion points doesn't mean they're not valid?

[tropic crater]

This is a general chat

[stone current]

im just saying though, if vrchat can fix stuff in 4 days shouldnt they be better at doing that

[small wing]

I really honestly wish vrchat had a complaints channel so our bubble tea convo doesnt get derailed by people with an agenda 😉

[stone current]

this is vrchat-general though not boba-tea-convention

[small wing]

but bubble teaaaaaa ;n;

[elder pivot]

The discussion relates to the game so it makes sense, so it’s valid

[small wing]

lol im just messin around xD

[exotic ether]

The jus dont understand Red its okay x3

[brittle dust]

yay mods are being added into VRChat

[ivory thunder]

@covert chasm Do you know if the devs are going to give proper credit where credit is due for the 20FPS bug? Because its a little sus that the mod creator that made the fix gets banned and than 4 days later the devs are like “The issue is fixed!”

[vale pecan]

Yeah. Having a bug be in the game for 2 years, marking it as "Under Review" 1 year in, then going from "In Progress" to "complete" in less than four days, at the same time as a mod which fixes said bug is released? It just seems EXTREMELY fishy, and there is NO way you could spin this to not be suspicious.

[vocal shard]

Whoah, a booster agreeing with a non booster on this topic, that's a first lol

[tropic crater]

I don't want to hate on devs too. Just grasping what's happened because these messes are super interesting to me

[stone current]

this is why i didnt actually apply for vrchat

[small wing]

You guys always say Dev's which isn't the people making the decisions. they just implement the code. I really feel the need to make that distinction.

[coarse blaze]

people boost for emote usage in this channel probably (I'd assume in @sharp saddle case at least)

[vale pecan]

I haven't been saying devs. I've been saying Team. Big distinction there.

[brittle dust]

interesting where a three year old bug was marked as working on when a mod that fixed it was released

[coarse blaze]

I still haven't used my 2 free boosts anywhere lol

[sharp saddle]

Eh, that and I like the green name.

[languid beacon]

Nah man, green name.

[brittle dust]

Hello 👋

[elder pivot]

Yeah green name

[covert chasm]

This isn't what occurred, and we couldn't use that code if we wanted to. Those modifications are usually (maybe always?) GPLv3 licensed, which prevents us from using it.

I agree that the timing looks a bit odd, but no, it was one of our QA people saying "huh, I think I know how to fix this" a week or so ago, and implementing a fix, testing it, discovering it worked, and slipping it into the next patch. That's all.

[small wing]

Then you are not who i was talking to specifically and you are wording things correctly, so thank you for that. 😊

[covert chasm]

I'm positive you'll choose to disbelieve that, though. D:

[brittle dust]

It is sus though

[coarse blaze]

do you sleep

[vale pecan]

Is your team willing to audit the fix to make sure code wasn't taken? Because it still definitely seems suspicious.

[ivory thunder]

Uh huh ... aside from the first part, you werent told how to respond right? (Just curious)

[exotic ether]

How about a way to change into a default avi while in VR? Instead of having to use the website or using the keyboard

[coarse blaze]

there were like 5 mods talking about 12 hours ago

[stone current]

i think i know how that guy figured out how to fix it 🐾

[covert chasm]

No? You do realize that I am the person that writes pretty much all of VRChat's communications, right? That's me. I'm the guy. 😛

[brittle dust]

guess so

[coarse blaze]

I even had a nice conversation with Momo lol

[ivory thunder]

Fair enough.

[covert chasm]

If anyone told anyone how to respond to anything, it'd be me

lol

[sharp rose]

Also, minor nitpick - no one here is a Mod. Devs, sure. 😛

[coarse blaze]

well, tupper isn't TECHNICALLY a dev anymore, innit?

[languid beacon]

Hypothetically could you use something if it was licensed in a way that was convenient, for example, wtfpl?

[winged flume]

im sure authors would be more than happy to give special permission and edit the liscence

[tropic crater]

The idea that management makes most of the devs decisions isn't that true in most companies btw

[sharp rose]

yes but ☹️

[covert chasm]

Uh, I was a dev the moment I got hired as a support person, and I'm still a dev now 🤔

[stone current]

very funny now give me the user tag that makes the funny jokes

[tropic crater]

Sure they have a lot of control over the project as a whole but for specifics it comes down to leads

[coarse blaze]

didn't you say you stopped being part of the dev team 🤔

[covert chasm]

.. no

[coarse blaze]

in 2018

[covert chasm]

no???

[coarse blaze]

what did you stop doing in 2018 then for the vrc team

[brittle dust]

what do you develop, turmoil?

[ivory thunder]

OOF.

[coarse blaze]

oh nvm it's

"I haven't stopped working since january 3rd 2018" OOPS

[sharp rose]

The distinction is important. "mod/moderator" implies a role we do not have. Developer is both more accurate, and true. 😄

[covert chasm]

Typically anyone that is on the team that develops a product like VRChat is referred to as a "dev"

[brittle dust]

that is a staff not a dev

[coarse blaze]

also tupper has the chat mod role 🤔

[sharp rose]

Staff works too

[covert chasm]

.. I mean, that's like how industry typically uses the nomenclature

you're free to make up how you wanna use it if you like i suppose

[tropic crater]

Not really true either. Where I work our community managers also get referred to as devs

[languid beacon]

You guys are being so pedantic. Devs are the staff of a videogame company.

[tropic crater]

It can be both

[sharp rose]

i choose to believe "dev" actually means "DEVO", the 80s synthwave band

[vocal shard]

Admins, easy fix

just call them admins

[digital mantle]

whip it

[vocal shard]

look, just called them yellow named people lol

[covert chasm]

ehhh that implies something else

[crimson ether]

eh

[stone current]

if youre taking years old requests can you guys fix viewpoint drift when lying down please

[vocal shard]

meh

[crimson ether]

yeh

[sharp rose]

whip it good duhnuhnuhnuhnuh

[vale pecan]

Cheesybois.

[stone current]

simpsons or simps

[digital mantle]

😂

[vocal shard]

cheese

[covert chasm]

well aware of it, its on my personal "i hate this bug and want it fixed" list, has been there a long time

[honest forge]

minions!

[winged flume]

the main issue with this is that this new update and the mod fix it the same way :/

[vale pecan]

Yeah cause their QA guy cheesed a bug that lasted for two plus years in only 4 days

[stone current]

epic gamer

what about remeasure avatar whens that coming back

[vocal shard]

grouups :P @covert chasm

[covert chasm]

that too

[vocal shard]

heh

[rancid jewel]

tu🅱️🅱️er is the entire team cats

[raw ivy]

Even though I do not believe the code was stolen, the method to fix it almost most certainly was. This is a really really bad look after you ban the person who discovered how to fix it.

[sharp rose]

Some day, ppl will realize Tupper and Pill are the only real ppl on the team, and the rest of us are their alts

[digital mantle]

sketchy

[vocal shard]

yes

[rancid jewel]

no you're cats
🐱

[digital mantle]

😂

[old palm]

Hey VRChat peeps, ty for bringing such an great platform for us all to enjoy together!

[languid beacon]

there's a difference between patching a bug and fixing it. Many user-submitted fixes in open source projects could be considered band-aids and not an actual clean fix that can/should be used

[vale pecan]

This is many peoples' exact view on the issue.

[ivory thunder]

Well anyway, before we beat the horse dead again, @covert chasm You can say whatever you want, but its still RRRREEEEEEAAAAALLLLLLLYYYYYY sus that the team was able to fix something so quick, after a fix was made (regardless of it was used or not), you can say whoever from QA was like “oh !” But the fact the issue on canny was in there for 2 years, and than sooooooo quickly fixed 4 days after a user is banned for fixing it really makes you think.

[coarse blaze]

is pill even active anymore lol

[vocal shard]

yea, i did hang with him last night

[sharp rose]

Very active! But busy with all the things.

[digital mantle]

pill is yes.

[crisp anvil]

Hey Tupper, I was wondering if there are plans to give us a roadmap or something of things to come this year? It would be nice to see a bit more transparency on what you guys are working on.
You're all doing a great job though so keep it up! I look forward to whatever you all have cooking up

[stone current]

yes please roadmaps and deadlines

[rancid jewel]

hey vrchat team i want to tell you that i know that you are cats

[covert chasm]

Roadmaps can be tough, as they put timers on things we're not comfortable putting timers on just yet-- but we do them when we can, which isn't super often

[languid beacon]

All mute catgirls are secretly VRChat devs on alts, taking down names

[crimson ether]

roadmaps would be nice

[stone current]

what about mute femboys

[sharp rose]

shhh quit outing us

[vocal shard]

damn

[rancid jewel]

no
youre a cat

[crimson ether]

would give us hope that things might get better

[crisp anvil]

That's fair enough, thanks for the reply ^^

[covert chasm]

We are always, always working on things to make VRChat better. Just assume that's always true of our roadmap. lol

[unreal verge]

Just woke up to see the patchlog. Real coincidence with the click bug mmmmmh

[plucky brook]

I like trains.

[vocal shard]

nonono ant

aaaa dies because of train

I got some great conspiracies. Like how they don't fix the UI because they don't want FBT people laying around and not beta testing.

😂

[coarse blaze]

is it 2006 again

[rancid lantern]

Ooh spicy

[rancid jewel]

i have a conspiracy
vrchat team is comprised of cats

[vocal shard]

gucci maine?

[coarse blaze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNJ21Gzp79E

wake up it's 2006

[austere linden]

Don't want to see seem pushy but any info on the loading screen/avatar 100% loading softlock bug? (coming from someone who's seen it more often than they'd like)

[vale pecan]

Personally, I feel like if the developers, QA testers, or any part of the VRChat team takes any sort of inspiration from any community content, then that community content should be credited in some way. That's all. And because of the timing of this bug fix, I'm still inclined to believe inspiration was taken from the modder's work.

[covert chasm]

????

[digital mantle]

heres a conspiracy, VRC Team is just too good.

[stone current]

yall need to add a laying play to the standing and seated play options so i can look forward without breaking my neck in bed

[gentle belfry]

bruh cant login...again :/

[ivory thunder]

@covert chasm This may seem loaded, but like, no response to this?

[vocal shard]

[old palm]

you got a VRChat account, or a steam account?

[languid beacon]

When I open the Steam Overlay, I'm still seeing my resolution drop. Not by as much, maybe just like 2x2 pixels now. Is this normal?

[sharp rose]

You've stated the same point no less than 3 times just today, it's already been responded to.

[gentle belfry]

steam

i linked my vrchat to steam

[old palm]

Could be steam authentication server problems again.

[coarse blaze]

I mean, I'd like to believe that the devs do sometimes tend to just have random EUREKA! moments to old, unsolved issues

[winged flume]

for those getting mad about the click thingy, here's the response from the mod author: https://i.imgur.com/2HXoaN3.png

[stone current]

pretty sure steamvr does this to reduce perf usage in overlay

[crisp anvil]

He literally said that they didn't use the mods code. They used their own code to solve the problem

[twin shale]

you can believe what happened all you want though but it doesn't make it a reality nor a fact, none of you know if any of this stuff was stolen or they just decided to fix it

[coarse blaze]

that's how I had it with RPGs I play at least

[covert chasm]

I mean, what do you want me to say? I'll give you the truth, but you're going to choose to disbelieve it, which is why I wasn't responding.

No, "inspiration" from another source was not taken. Code was not taken. The fix was implemented because someone said "oh right, I hate this bug, I wonder if I can fix it", and they did. That's it. That's the story. D: Not exciting, I know, but that's how it goes.

[languid beacon]

It does, but as I understood it, VRChat removed it in an update

[rancid jewel]

vrchat team
do you agree that cats can have a little salami

[vocal shard]

wtf

[heavy dirge]

Hey guys, i need help with something. I got banned from a VRchat world for talking about another world that an admin didn't like, even though in their rules it never said that i couldn't talk about it. I believe i was wrongfully banned for having an opinion, can anyone help with this?

[languid beacon]

Yes, but I thought recent changelog said that was removed. It was modofied. it's not as blocky. but it's still dropping a little

[stone current]

do i have to force vrchat developers to suffer from their own bugs before they fix it then

[covert chasm]

I actually had no idea a mod existed that addressed it. If it came out recently, yeah, sure, I can see why that appears odd.

[vale pecan]

As I said, I don't believe it was stolen. However, I don't believe a QA guy simply had an epiphany either. I believe there's more to the story that Tupper and the team are either unwilling or unable to tell us.

[rancid jewel]

well do you

[vocal shard]

?😂

[winged flume]

heres the response from the author: https://i.imgur.com/2HXoaN3.png

[exotic ether]

Cough ComfyVR

[covert chasm]

There isn't. The real story honestly is that boring. Sorry it isn't action-movie crazy.

[crimson ether]

i just want this game to not force me to keep upgrading my pc 2018 on a low end pc i could be in a world with 20+ people no frame drop. today in the same situation with a way beefier pc i sit at 30 to 40 in vr.
honestly the game got more demanding for me the day they added the vr cameras update.

[twin shale]

Again you can believe that all you want but this will not be a reality, between your belief and what the qualified team member has to say i think i would rather go with a qualified team member that knows how their team works

[sharp rose]

Darn thing about conspiracies - proof of their nonexistence is usually just internalized as proof of their existence.

[vocal shard]

That hashtag on Twitter is so dumb rn though, why cant people just stay Vanilla?

[stone current]

ok time to use jank content as demonstration after events

[gentle pine]

Is there any possibility of VAC being added to VRC?
I have always felt that account bans don't do much in free to play games.

[rancid jewel]

i have a conspiracy
you and all other members of the team are cats

[tranquil bronze]

wouldn't doubt it at this point

[covert chasm]

Again, like I said-- I can deliver the truth, but you'll choose to disbelieve. I can't help you.

[tranquil bronze]

that isn't what you said last night

[coarse blaze]

@sharp saddle the bonfires have been lit again

[languid beacon]

what if

There's not really more than one way to fix a bug

[raw ivy]

Finding out how to fix something, right after someone else does, truely pure actionmovie fantasy.

[lunar root]

for some reason i think your caps lock is very worn out and the writing is faded

[coarse blaze]

helm's deep needs our help

[brittle dust]

coincidence is a bitch

[vocal shard]

Galaxy brain

[tranquil bronze]

essentially you gave us a legal way of saying, that they did use the mods

[covert chasm]

I'm being only slightly hyperbolic , you know what I mean 😛

[winged flume]

rak im murdering you

[rancid jewel]

question
what was the inspiration of giving vrchat+ a mascot thats a cat wearing a cardboard box

[covert chasm]

they're goin to space

[brittle dust]

go ahead

[sick valley]

Uh

[tranquil bronze]

they looked at the mods and figured out how to fix the issue and boom, they fix it with no acknowledgement of the mod that lead to the fix in the first place

[gentle belfry]

this guy is obsessed with cats

[rancid jewel]

are you sure the cardboard box will protect them

[sharp rose]

That isn't essentially, nonessentially, or even implied as true in his statement.

[raw ivy]

There would be no issue with seeing the mod, and implementing the fix. The issue is this is right after disrespecting the people who did figure it out, and banning them. (I know you are not mods, but you are in the org)

[tranquil bronze]

IT is though

[languid beacon]

it will protect them from cardboard space, yes

[gentle pine]

Well, the thing is, modding is clearly against TOS.

[rigid crescent]

Can you confirm or deny the VRChat cat is a VRCat

[sick valley]

What if the space was the cardboard, what will you do then

[vocal shard]

cardboard is only the strongest material known to man

[gentle pine]

You aren't likely to thank/acknowledge someone for breaking your rules.

[old palm]

Oh I actually have a question for the VRC team about account merging (Steam to VRC account). Documentation on what is and isn't kept from the Steam account over to the VRC account is conflicting. idk if this is the right place to ask and I don't wanna post a paragraph but is there someone who could clarify what is/isn't saved in the merge?

[prisma night]

@covert chasm Any plan about official hooks for client-side only mods?

[coarse blaze]

well, they actually do want that from what I'm getting out of this convo :^)

[twin shale]

just as much as you can have a confirmation bias take on something that didn't happen.
but at least in his case he is a qualified team member

[raw ivy]

Then they shouldnt be looking at the mods themselves lul

[gentle pine]

well yes, but VRC doesn't want modders

it's their game, they do with it as they please

[umbral reef]

Tl;dr everything gets moved if the account is fresh, if you used a part of the system it wont transfer that part.

[raw ivy]

And no one is allowed to protest?

[covert chasm]

Everything possible is transferred. The transfer doesn't occur if there's anything on the VRC account-- so if you have an avatar saved on the VRC account, avatars aren't transferred. This isn't true for friends-- the friend lists are merged.

This is why you should use a brand new, blank VRC account for merging.

[rigid crescent]

lol you guys have been "protesting" for mods for 3 years and nothing has changed

just me remembering to come back here and enjoy the show every few months

[coarse blaze]

But that's simply how business works, you always follow what the contenders and "people against you" are doing

[stable folio]

basically, its against ToS since it can and is sometimes used maliciously

[brittle dust]

that is not how things change

[raw ivy]

Yes, modders who fix game issues are clearly the adversaries.

[stable folio]

Not all mods can be used maliciously, but it does create a bad scenario when it does

[gentle pine]

I didn't say modders couldn't protest.
I just said they can't really get mad and expect acknowledgement from a platform that is actively trying to get rid of them.

[coarse blaze]

well, with the current ToS, they are, yes

[stone current]

i think people should be allowed to provide working code examples the devs can study to test fixes and push them to open beta

[crimson ether]

part of me wishes we could revert versions and start over cause there was a time where this game ran flawlessly for the most part

[stable folio]

For the most part, i agree, but its one of those unfortunate scenarios where i thing its hurting the people who love the game and do support it, rather than the people who are using it in an evil capacity

[vale pecan]

And the root of the issue at hand is that this banwave only affected modders creating explicitly non-malicious mods.

[stable folio]

Yup

[languid beacon]

Using unoffiical mods in any application that has a username/password login is foolish tbh

[coarse blaze]

they probably are via canny, I'd assume so? need to hear from Tupper on that one

[lament siren]

yeah

[old palm]

hmm okay. So if there is an avatar and/or world playlist saved on the VRC account, can I just delete those from the account and it gets considered a blank account again, or is the "damage already done" so to speak?

[gentle pine]

That is not true, at all.

[lament siren]

vrchat threatened the creator of melon/loader btw

[gentle pine]

Melon loader could be used to inject all sorts of harmful stuff into the game.

[lament siren]

meon loader isn't only used for vrc

[stable folio]

problem, that i've seen in my few years of being on VRChat, the canny seems to have plenty of good ideas, but it usually sits on the canny for what seems like months if not years

[gentle pine]

It breaks VRC's terms of service.

[coarse blaze]

because devs are either busy with other stuff or simply have no clue how to implement it at the moment

[twin river]

No one is really mad. Maybe at first it was a bit frustrating, understandably, but we all knew this would happen. There's a reason pretty much everyone complied. Though one person did get the short end of the stick without a chance to remove their content as far as I'm aware.

[vale pecan]

That loader is simply a generalized tool, used for many Unity games. However, the MOdding Group discord whose mods were wiped was explicitly against any and all malicious modding of the game, and banned any mentions.

[tidal star]

helloooo

[gentle pine]

I symapthize with the guy, but ultimately, TOS is TOS whether you like it or not.

[twin shale]

for the most part it's just a very risky thing and very unstable.
modding implementation is not always having well done code and always running a risk of having infected code or it breaking in the future updates which would require for it to be updated.

I don't think you'd want people putting bad name on your game because of dangerous files being spread around by client modification.

VRC literally had records of accounts being stolen in some cases because some client were actually infected

It's just too much risk and company wouldn't want to deal with stuff like that

[stone current]

and its not just about the canny. like if people could collaborate on fixes and literally spoonfeed working solutions to the developer they can just push to open beta, experiment, and have a lot less to deal with

[coarse blaze]

because most of the games that accept mods are not ONLINE-ONLY games

[covert chasm]

I sent this to someone last night-- its my personal viewpoint, doesn't represent VRChat, but still wanna post it because I think it'll both answer questions and get people to misquote it and pull it out of context dozens of times over the next 12 hours. 😄

I can't really provide justification for any particular part of our ToS other than "thems the rules".

However, I can probably assume that we don't want people making modifications to our code because they have to run through our servers, interact with our community, and we don't want people doing things to our services or our community members that we don't control.

On top of that, modding code isn't vetted, so who knows what its doing to your PC. We've seen tons (TONS) of "nonmalicious" mods steal account info (or worse).

Finally, VRChat isn't exactly Skyrim, Minecraft, or etc. We run the services, and its all one big universe. A better analogy than those games would be like... hacking FF14's UI to get a better inventory page. Sure, you can do it, but rest assured that Squeenix would swing that hammer, fast and hard.

As an aside, assuming we had some kind of "mod vetting" program, that'd mean we'd have to pay engineers (expensive, skilled people!) to analyze code of new modifications and any updates, have a way to distribute them, and have an API that would allow them access-- all things we don't have, and don't really think is in the best interest to do.

We realize why people do these things-- there's features and fixes they want, and they want NOW. However, this is kinda my personal perspective on why this kind of thing isn't permitted.

[lament siren]

they banned creators of qol mods though

[coarse blaze]

someone tried to use terraria as an example lol

[coarse blaze]

12 hours is a bold claim, 20 hours give or take

[steady kayak]

@gentle pine mika but its an unity tool

its not vrc only ^^;

[twin river]

Modding code is vetted, that's the entire purpose of one community. Outside of stuff published there, can't say.

[steady kayak]

github is a whole different platform

[lament siren]

"On top of that, modding code isn't vetted, so who knows what its doing to your PC. We've seen tons (TONS) of "nonmalicious" mods steal account info (or worse)." yeah but you banned creators of open source mods

[gentle pine]

And for the last time... it breaks their TOS... and allows loading of malicious code into their game...

I understand it also does other things...

Still against TOS

[raw ivy]

They have only stopped the good side of modding lul.

[steady kayak]

its universal.. you cant enforce your power on github

[covert chasm]

Hi! Also, vetted by people we haven't vetted, therefore has inherited not-being-vetted-ness.

[stone current]

everyone in one of the modding communities was banned for distributing malicious mods although none of their mods were malicious specifically because malicious mods werent allowed to begin with

[coarse blaze]

btw @covert chasm as a FFXIV player myself, The FFXIV part is actually a bit incorrect

[gentle pine]

Untrue, they have banned/detected plenty of malicious mods.

[coarse blaze]

in FFXIV you don't get caught for mods at all if you don't expose yourself about it

[vale pecan]

Your team banned the people who were vetting the mods, too, Tupper.

[steady kayak]

melonloader is not malicious nor a mod?

[lament siren]

the current thing being discussed rn is a banwave of a bunch of creators of qol mods

[gentle pine]

The amount of disinformation floating around about VRC and the impact of modding is staggering.

[coarse blaze]

cause they simply don't hunt people for mods

[covert chasm]

Well yeah, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it...

[stone current]

melonloader can be malicious, it just isnt always

[gentle pine]

yes it can

[north willow]

Hay guys I just wanted to know I made a mod for Left 4 Dead 2 back in 2010 that replaces Ellis with Krystal Fox am I still gonna get banned

[steady kayak]

its the people using melonloader...

[lament siren]

melonloader isnt even like... just for vrchat

[steady kayak]

why not reach out to them to like.. allow some option for melon to be usedd in a safe manner

[lament siren]

so it seems ridiculous that vrchat went after it

[languid beacon]

Same voice?

[brittle dust]

It is for all Unity games

[covert chasm]

Just as a point of contention, the "ripper mod" that's popular at the moment utilizes MelonLoader to hook into VRC.

So..

[coarse blaze]

It's more that, perfect example that had big drama with it was the ACT (Advanced Combat Tracker), literally everyone who raids uses it, OPENLY, but they only ban people if they bring it up in the chat

[gentle pine]

Yeah...

So ML is not in fact harmless.

[lament siren]

you need 0 mods to rip things from vrchat tho

[twin river]

Hello! Fair enough, that's completely understandable. Thanks for clarifying that. 😄

[coarse blaze]

until one day YoshiP finally said "ok ACT is allowed"

[blazing hull]

maybe hire said community, have them vet and you get everything vetted.

[prisma night]

Documenting and providing official hooks for clientside modifications doesn't sound too outlandish tho

[boreal heath]

Yes but that doesn't mean that they had to target the good creators

[gentle pine]

They didn't.

They target anyone who breaks TOS.

[vocal shard]

You do realize you do not need to mod your game to grab avatars. You can literally do it through the website itself

[gentle pine]

Want to not be banned?
Just don't break TOS.

[vocal shard]

A mod like that basically does the same thing

[brittle dust]

you don't even need to hire us, we will volunteer it.

[boreal heath]

This is true

[vocal shard]

^

[blazing hull]

XD

[covert chasm]

Hiring someone is how we vet them.

[blazing hull]

well ez fix then

[twin shale]

There is no good and bad, it's a simple as "you broke the TOS"
It's like saying "I shouldn't go to jail because i stole something from someone for helping out others" you stole something that's it - end of story

[twin river]

Assuming I know what you're referring to, it uses a modified version of MelonLoader that will not be effected by the current takedown.

[boreal heath]

This is also true. If there's people willing to do it for free already, it's not gonna cost VRChat that much money

[sharp rose]

they made me sing in my interview 😦

[vocal shard]

So from what im reading and from what im understanding you all should be pissed off that you cant walk into a business without a shirt. the business said "hey, its our rule you cant be in here with a shirt off, you're no longer allowed into the store" that would make sense right? then why is vrchat banning modders, something that is against their rules, so polarizing? its the same concept

[vale pecan]

They are saying they don't require payment.

[covert chasm]

You do, and that's correct

[vocal shard]

the fuck why?

[blazing hull]

pay them in donuts

[old palm]

What song did you pick?

[coarse blaze]

half the devs are "picked" from the community, only real example I know is Euan, but he explained it perfectly how he got in

[lament siren]

the only mods being taken down rn are like qol stuff

[sharp rose]

the one true song - Wrecking Ball

[sharp galleon]

Had another lovely experience of two kids exclaiming that I was a furry and to “kill it”. What a way to live.

[twin river]

Clearly they have the voice of an angel, since they got hired. x3

[distant juniper]

@covert chasm Dont think anyone here is asking for offical recognition but what was the rational with purposly going after the ones who were vetting and creating ethical guidelines for mods?

[brittle dust]

oh no

[lament siren]

staff was like... uh global dynamic bones? fuck you

[raw ivy]

You are breaking TOS yourself.

[old palm]

lmao I like your style.

[vocal shard]

you're missing the fucking point bro. the keyword is M O D. MODS are banned, regardeless of their objective

[tranquil bronze]

there are ways to vet without hiring

[sharp rose]

If you've ever heard me, you might actually believe that. 😛

[rigid crescent]

"We have vetted ourselves and found that we have done no wrong"

[boreal heath]

Yeah but stealing affects somebody regardless: loss of money.

Good modding doesn't.

[vocal shard]

it doesnt matter what it does, its a mod, and its against their rules, cry about it

[covert chasm]

Those are actioned, removed, taken down, etc as often as possible.

[lament siren]

you can rip avatars without a mod, it's in the very files of the game

[old palm]

If we run into each other in VRC I expect an instant solo concert 👀

[weary jungle]

oh shit here we go again

[twin shale]

it's against tos regardless, that's the rule

[tranquil bronze]

fact

[sharp rose]

Youll be disappointed, I promise

[ivory thunder]

So.... it took them 2 years to finally say “yeah I hate this now” and than magically have an idea to fix it? Idk dude.

[coarse blaze]

@sharp saddle just making sure you're not missing out

[brittle dust]

yes sir

[stone current]

i remember people told me they used to rip stuff out of the unencrypted cache they store, didnt require mods

[winged flume]

can you calm down about that please. the author dun give a shit.

[vocal shard]

i wanna hear them vocals

[old palm]

That's my line

[lament siren]

i can understand banning mods made for vrchat, but threatening melon loader's creator

is funny

[boreal heath]

And it shouldn't. We're just asking them to change the ToS to say "Don't create malicious mods". All it takes is adding one word.

[covert chasm]

I mean I did say that you were going to choose to disbelieve, and... well

[twin river]

Wasn't really a threat, but a request.

[stone current]

then it gets hard to define the word “malicious”

[winged flume]

the funny thing is the author doesnt really care at this point. its the users that are getting mad on his behalf
(maybe if you unban him (loukylor#0001) he can help quell this a bit ;))

[brittle dust]

his account was held at ransom

[vocal shard]

imagine being angry because you did something that was a clear violation of terms of service

[twin shale]

This would mean they endorse using good mods, which would expose users to risk running them in general like catching a virus or whatever other stuff that can happen

[blazing hull]

i mean the creator doesnt have to be pissed, the users would be since they use said mods XD

[boreal heath]

Crashing, stealing, credential hacking. A simple "bug fix" and "IK fixer" is NOT malicious at all, even for a reasonable n00b to figure out

[lament siren]

instead of putting your energy into the chat can you guys fix the audio bug i hate having to restart my game all the time

[steady kayak]

Club Mika breaks tos too

[vale pecan]

It was, at the very least, coersion, and at the worst, extortion.

[twin river]

Everyone's was, not really the correct term though. Violation of the VRChat ToS warrants this kind of action. Is what it is.

[twin river]

Completely incorrect

[tranquil bronze]

yeah why not crack down on the other things breaking tos as well

[brittle dust]

sure but VRChat itself also has the risk of viruses

[steady kayak]

You can't enforce that on another platform... Let alone for an universal tool

[simple wyvern]

Same shit different day

[boreal heath]

They don't have to "endorse" anything. They can just leave the non-malicious ones alone.

[unreal verge]

Sorry, but it's way deeper than this.

[rigid crescent]

Not really

[winged flume]

yes it is

[steady kayak]

That's power abuse guys. I support vrc through plus.. This bahaviour is not acceptable

[twin river]

Their initial response should have pointed to the exact files they wanted changed/removed, certainly. Not just the entire repo. But I believe they corrected themselves on that.

[tranquil bronze]

The issue still stands, this is a big fuck you to the modders with no acknowledgement of the work they have done to improve your game no credit given, instead of working with modders in a sanctioned manner, for example... employing them, that way they aren't breaking tos, instead you blackmail them into deleting their git hubs so they can be unbanned. And when patchnotes come out with a fix that heavily resembles what a mod provided, you can't help but see some kind of connection there that the work modders are doing is being stolen, either copy and pasted, or being looked at, examined, and reverse engineered to fix the main issue in the client. Because here is the problem, our only source of knowledge is the dev team, and when there has already been a lack of transparency, it makes it hard to believe anything being said in the first place, so going on about how we disbelief the truth, it was brought on by your own faults. Not just tupper, but several chat moderation and devs adding fuel to the fires, whilst mostly unintentional, it doesn't help. This could have been handled better in every way, yet devs and moderation are digging in their heels and dying on their hill.

[lament siren]

actually you guys i'm fine with the banning of mods if you get rid of kids

[winged flume]

they have, they said they wanted all references of vrchat gone from it

[twin shale]

This is a dumb argument, they are a company. They have a job, they literally will lose income and trust by doing this. They risk not getting the job in the future for a stupid action like this...

[steady kayak]

What's on there that belongs to vrc?

[distant juniper]

Thats being a bit extreme, we are just talking about an account here. VRChat is well within their right to ban accounts for any reason including no reason as per their TOS.

[rigid crescent]

"blackmail: the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding payment or another benefit from someone in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them."

[coarse blaze]

that's out of the question, especially with quest being a playable platform

[north willow]

I'm surprised how nice the Dev team is being actually, they have the ability to ban everyone who even uses a client and they would be in the right because you literally broke the ToS you agreed to.

[rigid crescent]

yall are dumb as hell lol

[sharp rose]

Just to single out a point here: do you know how blackmail is legally defined?

[lament siren]

but their tos says you gotta be older than 13

[vocal shard]

except no its literally not, everyoens throwing a shitfit because people got banned for doing something they shouldnt have. sure the melonloader thing is a crock of shit but they reserve the right to ban anyone off their platform for breaking terms of service, its not my fault people are too sped to comprehend that

[twin river]

Mhm, so pointless to discuss any "threats". Mistakes were made, people made up for it, only thing is to roll with it and move on.

[raw ivy]

and allowed more customization and the features that mods provide, then phasing them out.

[stable folio]

all i want is the audio glitch to be fixed

[ivory thunder]

I mean, idk how difficult it is to see what im seeing from all this, do you not agree that it is really sus?

[coarse blaze]

and? facebook ToS says you have to be 13+, I have a facebook account since 10 years old

[lilac tundra]

Frog

[lament siren]

please let me change my ui color tupper

[stable folio]

so i can feel ok with resubbing to VRC+

[winged flume]

its dum cuz im on the modding side but we dont get anywhere because people keep kicking the point into the floor

[simple wyvern]

Yeah honestly seems like a spit in the face to their community

[steady kayak]

Is vrc rolling back their statement to that dev?

[tranquil bronze]

being slightly hyperbolic with that wording

[steady kayak]

In that case.. Cool

[brittle dust]

oh there has been several companies that have pushed viruses, Sony anyone?

[twin shale]

that would mean that it is fine to use them if they are not restricted therefore more users will recommend them with an argument that "it's allowed" and at some point things like that are just bound to happen. hell it's already a thing,

[stone current]

my friend was banned and all he made was a mod that allowed eye tracking to be read as animator params

[lament siren]

tupper i'll buy you red lobster if you can let me make my ui pink

[sharp rose]

Maybe don't. It doesn't support your point to be hyperbolic.

[worldly summit]

Rip eyetracking :(

[covert chasm]

Sure, I can definitely see how it might appear suspicious, but I'm telling you that isn't what happened. I'm not sure what you think me lying about it would gain me.

[twin river]

The conversation continued, but that remains private.

[covert chasm]

More headaches, I guess

[tranquil bronze]

neither does it when the chat mods and dev team are aswell

[lament siren]

tupper. red lobster biscuits. all for you. pink ui please

[vale pecan]

There was a creator banned that made the Index thumb position a parameter as well, a mod specifically designed for Sign Language

[raw ivy]

Before, you had said that someone in QA figured it out, meaning you do not know how they figured it out.

[steady kayak]

Hordini sounds like an important time to be a bit transparent about itm people.. Are rightfully a little upset at this

[stone current]

the same one actually @vale pecan

[gleaming kraken]

why am i surprised to see that this dumb mod discussion is still going from last night

[unreal verge]

Yes they can but if they do than at least the correct way. The malicious ones will still roam around after they banned the harmless ones. That's partly even worse since there is no protection now against the malicious ones.

[loud gale]

Oh right vrchat hates sign language n the deaf.

[boreal heath]

And VRChat can just ignore it and focus on the bigger problems at hand that they actually have to focus on. As of right now, they don't have their priorities straight

[vocal shard]

take a painkiller, and a nap, you deserve it

no headache

[steady kayak]

Behind close doors is a lil sus

[twin river]

Actually quick question, am I able to use outside emojis if I boost? I use 'em so much for expression it's hard not to.

[winged flume]

@ivory thunder can you please drop the clickfix thing. the author doesnt care and has directly said to not get mad for his behalf

[loud gale]

[coarse blaze]

it's not continuing, there was like 10 hours of peace

[rigid crescent]

This stuff goes on for a few days to a week every banwave, then people stop bitching and realize they dont need mods to play a game about talking lol

[covert chasm]

me, personally? no, I can see the source and it was a pretty simple fix. just hadn't gotten looked at in a long time because there's always something else bigger up on the list

[blazing hull]

well love the fact that malicious mod users are going to be having a field day :v

[coarse blaze]

it started like an hour ago again

[rigid crescent]

then anothe crops up a few months, maybe half a year later. rinse. repeat.

[covert chasm]

but yeah, someone said "ok, i hate this" and took it upon themselves to fix it, out of the normal production order

[devout berry]

sigh Here we go again - chat is again on the rampage...

[covert chasm]

sometimes happens

[vocal shard]

the facebook group has become a cancer cell too

[tranquil bronze]

I only did the same thing tupper has been doing #vrchat-general-2 message

[covert chasm]

so they fixed it, tested it, passed it into the queue

[ivory thunder]

Well, not you personally Tupper

[vocal shard]

its a hive mind of idiots

[covert chasm]

it got pushed into this patch, so now its out and you can benefit from it

[twin shale]

Ignore the most possibly dangerous source where the virus can come from? At any point the mod dev can just decide to put something bad in the code when they feel like it no matter for how long the mod was "good"

[raw ivy]

It was a simple fix, but sometimes things like that are hard to track down, which the mod creator had. The issue is the timing, right after banning.

[twin river]

The timing was unfortunate, but a fix is a fix.

[tranquil bronze]

yeah

[stone current]

why there no community suggested patches then with working solutions that the devs can read and try to understand, like vrchat canny but with code demonstrations

[vocal shard]

tupper, gib hug ❤️

[winged flume]

hordi can u say that i dc about the clickfix thing cuz ppl dont seem to listen to me

[coarse blaze]

out of curiosity, have you gotten any death threats in ur dms yet since the banwave or do you keep your dms closed nowadays lul

[raw ivy]

Nothing wrong with the fix, or that it was from a mod.

[covert chasm]

yep, it can be. I'm telling you that I understand that the timing was oddly coincidental, but that's it-- coincidence. Like.. I'm just gonna repeat it over and over.

[sharp saddle]

Oh no. Not this again.

[sharp rose]

Imagine thinking game devs dont get death threats daily as part of normal operations.

[covert chasm]

yes, this, again

[graceful python]

Website friendslist still broken 😭 Lemme spy on my friends 😝

[gleaming kraken]

didnt they.. literally just push an update that fixed bugs?

[coarse blaze]

well, I just assume Tupper gets like 10x the normal amount

[tranquil bronze]

like I said, whether it is unintentional, but most of us find it hard to believe how these fixes are only now being implemented when modders have fixed them for a while now and they are only now being added after modders are being banned, look at the 20 fps fix, that was mod in which the modder recently also got banned and boom fixed in the client, it is fucking sus.

[unreal verge]

At least it's fixed now, whatever if a mod did fix it too recently

[sharp saddle]

I feel so very sorry for you.

[vocal shard]

tupper can i borrow your minifridge

[boreal heath]

Then VRChat would take down the creator.

Not to mention there is a group dedicated to verifying each mod update and the integrity of them. They should be allowed to work with VRChat.

[raw ivy]

But you do not know it is coincidence, because you do not know how the QA person figured it out.

[vocal shard]

How do I add a custom character without playing for an hour

[vocal shard]

dont stress tupper, it aint werf

[lament siren]

its his job

[rigid crescent]

and you dont know the reverse, sooo...

[gleaming kraken]

hwaht so people complain when they dont fix things. then complain when they fix things?

[lament siren]

he gets paid

[vocal shard]

did i ask you

[vale pecan]

Please drop the ClickFix argument. The creator has made a statement.

[vocal shard]

i told him not to stress

[cunning dagger]

[twin river]

Initially done by a mod first, but if it inspired them to tackle the issue on their own, then all the better.
That or just some crazy timing for a 3 year old issue to be addressed by both sides at the same time. Either way, this discussion has happened so many times in the past few days, no need to continue it.

[vocal shard]

not to not do his job

How do I add a custom character without playing for an hour

[vocal shard]

you're in a public server lol

[coarse blaze]

At this point I want to imagine that he's having fun partly because he can make fun of people professionally lul

[lament siren]

can't

[ashen wadi]

buy vrc+

[twin shale]

but this is not much of ignoring then is it? You are basically saying act upon things once the damage is done instead of preventing the damage from happening in the first place

[vocal shard]

That's dumb...

[vocal shard]

Ok

[lament siren]

it's to stop people immediately uploading malicious avatars

[raw ivy]

Yeah, I wasn't being sarcastic in that message.

[vocal shard]

his job isnt to stress over idiots spamming his chat over someone breaking the rules and being dealt with

[vocal shard]

Bruh

[lament siren]

it takes more like 10 hours tho to get to new user

[tranquil bronze]

even if the code isn't ripped line for line, the chance that it is a coincidence is unlikely

[sterile drift]

Just spend time on the game, no need to rush avatar creation.

[twin river]

Sarcasm doesn't translate through text, apologies. 😅

[ashen wadi]

yes it's dumb not to have every jackass who gets on right away to be able to upload whatever they want from the getgo

[stone current]

yall know how bug bounties work, i know its usually for more severe concerns like security breaches in google, but if there was a bug bounty thing for vrchat that wasnt paid, and explains bugs and how the devs can fix that it can help a lot

[vocal shard]

he's responding to criticism. He literally doesn't have to talk if he doesn't want to.

[twin river]

But also for the people arguing for ClickFix, the mod creator doesn't want that to continue.

[vocal shard]

ok

[unreal verge]

He's community manager though. His job is literally communicating with the community. He's getting paid for that.

[vale pecan]

Even a simple tag on the profile that's something like $isHelper = true as a reward for bug bounties

[boreal heath]

Well like I said, there's a group dedicated to making and publishing safe mods and verifying them before published. They verify before updates are published too. I'm just saying that the one central "safe mods" location doesn't need to be shot down.

[twin shale]

that's sort of what canny is for, but i believe they just need time to get to fixing certain things

[coarse blaze]

community manger doesn't necessarily have to interact with the community 24/7

[vocal shard]

yes but he doesnt need to be stressed over it you sped

[dawn knot]

Ruby client is much more invasive

[coarse blaze]

blogposting is more what a community manager does, keeping the community up-to-date with stuff

[lament siren]

can we ban kids yet

[steady kayak]

honestly though mods are also a way to support hardware vrc is unlikely or slow to support

[tranquil bronze]

Reverse engineering makes sense, especially if the fix couldn't be figured out and you hear a mod creator did, you would want to look at that open source mod to see how they did it. It makes your job easier and lets you learn, but when this is done after these mod creators are banned and essentially spat on, it just doesn't look good.

[covert chasm]

ehhhhhhhhhhhhh

[steady kayak]

like vive eye or face tracking.

[ashen wadi]

community manager's job is to manage a community, not to bend to their whim

[stone current]

or at the very least people shouldnt be banned from the canny for providing code samples

[unreal verge]

Sped? If that's some weird insult than pls stop talking. I'm not insulting you either

[vale pecan]

Or bHaptics.

[covert chasm]

I mean, google for "what does a community manager do" and you'll find dozens of articles all of which are slightly wrong in various ways

[vocal shard]

i have my right to speak thank you 🙂

[sharp rose]

Having been a community manager for 6 years - no, it's more like 5 jobs in one: content creation, authoring, PR, and (company depending) video production/distribution.

[covert chasm]

CMs do different things depending on the communities they manage

[twin shale]

I could go on the reasons for it to be very unsafe as well but i would prefer to stop it here tbh.

[lament siren]

i do not envy tupper

[boreal heath]

This

[unreal verge]

Not if you insult people

[twin river]

A Community Manager's role can vary depending on the community

[vocal shard]

You LITERALLY told someone to stop talking to you because you didn't speak to them directly lmao

[vocal shard]

and who are you to take my rights, lmao

[fallow lotus]

CM is a title that will be completely different between communities

[tranquil bronze]

don't use sped like that, that is not ok

[sharp rose]

CMs are hydras that fill a lot of roles all at once. Takes finesse and patience. 😄

[covert chasm]

Code samples should never be posted to the Canny, they should be sent directly to the moderation team, labeled as an exploit report.

[vocal shard]

stop being rude

[vocal shard]

no i didnt? I said i didnt ask, read much?

[distant juniper]

And unfortunetly they often are the ones at the butt-end of most of the community's jokes or frustruation, seeing as they often become a public face.

[vocal shard]

if you want to scream at each other like monkeys go into DMs

[ashen wadi]

you actually don't lol, this is a service owned by a private business

[vocal shard]

monke

[coarse blaze]

Well yeah, I've never been a community manager myself so I don't know the exact details, but it's just more or less what I imagined it to be, blogposting and content creation are the same imo

but it still doesn't mean community managers should be interacting with their communities 24/7 with individuals who are thicker than a castle wall unlike certain ppl want them to (which is what I wanted to point out to ppl saying "OMG tupper community manager! he responsible!!!!!")

[unreal verge]

It's against the server rules. The same as you say modding is against tos soo

[boreal heath]

Makes sense for security issues. But regular bugs probably doesn't matter

[stone current]

what about for bug reports that have been community fixed? same?

[steady kayak]

but isnt most of the taxing on the player itself ?

[vocal shard]

and i dont see any moderators or admins telling me to stop talking 🙂

for once we got the devs to talk in a group like that
we don't need angry kids just yelling

[steady kayak]

maybe put a toggle on it just like dynamic bones?

[boreal heath]

It's Spring Break

[vocal shard]

It's quiet at work lmao

[fallow lotus]

The problem I see with doing that is they can attach an account to that if it’s an exploit and just permanently remove them from the community for wanting an issue fixed

[lament siren]

ban the kids and you solve two problems at once

[twin river]

Mhm you see that happening way too much unfortunately 😅
Gotta love when people get made a Tupper for an update, makes no sense. Can't tell people people are joking or serious anymore lol.

[covert chasm]

Modifications are not made to original source, and usually aren't useful to post the decompiled/hooked-in fix for, but I don't see any issue in sending that as a report as well?? I guess? Just, again, don't post on the Canny

[sharp rose]

No one is ever going to be banned for making a good-faith report. Ever.

[lament siren]

its like that one meme where the guy puts a piece of wood in his bike and he falls over and hes like "damn obama did this"

[smoky berry]

wAIT THEY FIXED THE LOW FPS CAPSULE SELECTING BUG really?? That was one of the most annoying issues in my experience

[dusky cedar]

anyone having problems playing videos in worlds since new update? "Invalid url" for everyone tried

[distant juniper]

I think they were more talking about code samples for fixing issues or new additions, do you not want them posted to the canny aswell? Should they also be sent to the moderation team?

[winged flume]

loll obama memes are the best. specially the one where its literally obama saying godamnit obama

[vocal shard]

yeah well I have that one friend that got banned once so it's true
i have no proof to back it up but dozens of people reported it ||/s you never know.||

[stone current]

well sure but the thing is it makes it very easy to implement especially in cases where its a simple problem as a result of doing something improperly or mis managing a resource or whatever. this can also involve content integration such as in the case of eye tracking

[boreal heath]

I'm surprised nobody's asked about mods that translates the UI in their native language

[unreal verge]

@vocal shard if you gonna say to everyone that they should stop breaking tos than begin to follow server rules by stopping to insult others

[winged flume]

doesnt vrc already have localization?

[trail shale]

yeah imagine them fixing the click bug right after a clickfix mod came out. speedrun

[sharp rose]

youre gonna give me an ulcer, svel.

[covert chasm]

Nope, absolutely not. As long as an exploit is reported responsibly and is not used maliciously by the person reporting it, then I'll personally fight for people to not get actioned for reporting.

Let me reiterate: we want exploit reports. However, as soon as that reporter uses that exploit for their own gain or to act maliciously, that little bit of immunity disappears.

[vocal shard]

😂

why are you still talking to me if you dont like what im saying?

[winged flume]

#vrchat-general-2 message shus about that

[unreal verge]

Because you're being a hypocrite right now

[vocal shard]

no not really

[vocal shard]

make sense

[boreal heath]

Nope. English only. There's guides in different languages that the community has made however

[stone current]

so if i were to write a fix for something or add support for something i wouldn’t be banned for sending that email..?

[vocal shard]

saying that people are idiots, because they refuse to accept that people got banned for breaking tos of vrchat, doesnt relate to calling you an idiot for having an assbackwards opinion

[boreal heath]

I'm half Japanese and wanted to try out the Japanese version of VRChat... Only to realize there's no option to switch languages

[rancid jewel]

yeah vrchats ui is english only

adding more languages would be really cool

[stone current]

would need translators there since vrc won’t community source localization

[covert chasm]

I said "exploit report", specifically.

[unreal verge]

You said i am a sped. Don't know what that is but i guessed some insult. I already asked but you didn't answer to that.

[vocal shard]

it just sounds like you're butthurt because you cant use your unfriendly mods 🤷‍♀️

[distant rampart]

I don't care if people got banned for TOS breaking, but tbh that strongholding mod tool developers for the unity mod tool itself, and the treatment towards the more passive side of modders is def a slap in the face to a huge amount of people, while malicious clients run free and now the passive ones may use the more aggressive ones since their current is being attacked.

[fallow lotus]

Sped = Special Education so yeahhhh

[vocal shard]

I already said i didnt agree with them pissing on melonloader

[distant rampart]

Not replying to you.

[vocal shard]

but in all fairness, the guy was givena choice

okay idc

[distant rampart]

Melonloader is not a vrchat exclusive loader.

[rancid jewel]

ui translations into different languages when

[gleaming kraken]

how come it seems like everyones argument here is that removing the safe mods is suddenly gonna bring more people to bad mods and have those overtake the game. does anyone have like.. a single bit of evidence or data to make that claim?

[ivory thunder]

This is why most of us are upset too, @covert chasm I know you cant say much about it, but like dont you agree its a little immoral

[vocal shard]

immoral*

not being a dick

[distant rampart]

If you don't care then don't add to your side of the "Argument"

[vocal shard]

just helping for some that might get confused

[ivory thunder]

You’re good 🙂

[languid mason]

if you actually require people to provide evidence the entire convo would be much quieter 🙂

[gleaming kraken]

yeah pretty much

[covert chasm]

We action malicious modifications as often as we possibly can. They're just far less visible when we do so.

[ivory thunder]

Not what im asking

[vocal shard]

i can do as i please thank you

until i see moderator on your name, you hold no authority over me

[stone current]

im just glad theyre not literally banning everyone on modding servers for now

[distant rampart]

Then your argument has no valid point for my side if you wanna ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you.

[coarse blaze]

hi

[distant rampart]

So "do what you see fit" and I will as well.

[unreal verge]

He's just being toxic

[vocal shard]

wasnt ignoring you, you're the one that said you werent resonding to me

[tranquil bronze]

so looking back, blackmail wasn't the right word, extortion is.

[sharp saddle]

Nep's back.

[twin river]

The passive ones won't be getting more aggressive. Most, if not all, mod creators complied and removed their repositories. We do what we can, but aggression isn't the answer.

[distant rampart]

Not saying you guys
B

[distant juniper]

Yes there is evidence for it but i dont have it at hand, however lets assume some 20% of the playerbase has always used mods, ive personally seen way less ppl in public be malicious now in 2020/2021 then in 2018 when i started playing, That would be an indication more ppl have switched to friendly mods, if they get rid of those then logic goes ppl would go back to using not so friendly mods.

[distant rampart]

I mean the people who use them, might because without a direct source now, they may turn to more malicious mods that haven't been taken down.

I trust you guys not to hurt anyone.

[austere linden]

So would that be "Support Request" for contact type then "Technical/Application Support" from support category and "Exploit Report" as the subject? Not really seeing any other choices?

[sharp rose]

also not true - extortion is explicitly implied to imply obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

[languid mason]

but do you actually have evidence for how many people use mods? 🙂 otherwise your view is always going to be biased

[limber aspen]

[languid mason]

im not saying it to be mean, but to be clear

[covert chasm]

I'd probably submit it to the Moderation team, tbh, just choose the standard "report" reason.

[austere linden]

aight

[trail shale]

hurt anyone doing what? its a game

[winged flume]

well the largest modding discord has 42k members, the other 35k

[languid mason]

thats still not what im asking but sure

[brittle dust]

yay

[languid mason]

for example, i can say that discord servers are notorious for having a lot of inactive members

[distant juniper]

Yes I do, it is about 20-23% of the userbase and has been fairly constant at that for a while now

[distant rampart]

I'd honestly prefer someone changing their UI passively, than have them turn to a mod that gives them UI changes and now gives them the tools to mess with other peoples UI.

[twin river]

We can roughly estimate, at least.

[distant rampart]

Remove one another one will pop up and not all of them are friendly.

[brittle dust]

[languid mason]

source?

[gleaming kraken]

for me logic would seem to indicate that when the easiest and most safe mods are off the market then most of the people who are only into entry level mods would get discouraged and just quit all together. once its made harder to obtain them most of them wont put in the effort to go out and find something else. alot of the client users ive encountered in worlds seem to be pretty basic, even pretty noob-y users who just wanted to pick one up for a few reasons. i highly doubt they will care to actually put in effort to search for others.

[unreal verge]

Discord servers really aren't a good way to measure something

[distant rampart]

@twin river Dw I trust you guys tho <3

[languid mason]

even analytics from a single mod would work, otherwise you're just pulling the number out of nowhere

[winged flume]

people start using mods. since the wholesome groups are the largest they use wholesome mods. if you cripple the wholesome groups, people wont have anywhere to go for mods, and some people are really desperate. so theyll have to go to malicious communities. they get a feeling for the malicious features and suddenly theyre stuck with a mod that lets you reupload an avatar with a single button press

[distant rampart]

Too many already do it, and most of them go into it "I'll mod either way" so its gonna lead to more malicious mods being used since they aren't banned.

[stone current]

most of the safe mods come from public discord servers, vs the secluded servers u cant just google and might need money or referral to enter

[ashen wadi]

the amount of people that will go for the malicious mods is extremely tiny, in reality most people will just stop bothering with mods

[twin river]

Some just grab whatever, not caring to checking it's contents first. Which is why we verify. User safety is extremely important.

[distant rampart]

^

[unreal verge]

Or stop playing at all which results in the same

[winged flume]

how so? the largest vrchat modding server has 42k members. that means you can assume atleast 50% of thos epeople use mods. add on the other group 35k, and youve got a substantial number

[distant juniper]

I'll ask for permission to publicize the numbers and will dm you if its granted.

[languid mason]

because discord members != actual mod users

[distant rampart]

I'd rather someone use atleast a safer mod that gets verified, instead of people usings mods that actually have intent of snagging them or doing malicious actions in game.

[languid mason]

you know what the discord member count means? how many people are in the server :v thats all i can glean from it

[winged flume]

still, by crippling wholesome groups some people will go to smaller malicious comunities. even if its a tiny percentage its still making them grow

[distant rampart]

Word of mouth as well ^^

[ashen wadi]

developing a "safe" mod list would still be an incredible amount of work

[stone current]

honestly the only reason why there is modding in the first place is because of the lack of feature inclusion and weekly updates or something to keep things going at a steady pace to ensure proper engagement with users who use different currently incompatible devices as well as simple stuff as telling you when people join or leave the instance which should take a minute to implement and would be beneficial for everyone

[twin river]

We're not showing the Discord Membership as proof, it's mostly irrelevant. There's other data to go off.

[distant rampart]

The community affected by this already does this.

[worthy oracle]

i would assume like at least 30% of users online at any given time have mods on tbh. most longtime players have them, the discords have more members than are ever online on vrchat on an average day. but i do believe that percentage is higher

[languid mason]

if discord was somehow a requirement for mod usage (somewhat like poiyomi, which distributes through discord) sure, but most of the mods are hosted on github afaik

[winged flume]

thats why i said 50%, not 100 or anything. we can also go off of the download counts from the github. personally people close to me had 2-4k downloads on their mods and this is in the smaller server

[loud gale]

I mean every other guy I met is capable of just taking models. Shrug.

[ashen wadi]

i'm sure vrchat's lawyers would be fine with that

[languid mason]

thats the actual numbers i wanted, thank you 😄 github downloads actually mean something

[winged flume]

most mods are hosted on github yes, but most people find these githubs through the discord

[twin river]

Hosted on GitHub, and distributed through a Discord community that acts as a hub.

[distant rampart]

I'm sure their lawyers will also be a bit interested in the strongholding campaign against the mod tool itself that isn't even vrchat based.

[winged flume]

^^^

[shrewd raft]

I'd just like to add my thought if nobody has specifically put it out there first, not many here is really mad that the vrc dev removed mods, they're more upset that they no longer have the fixes that afflicted many users, enough to create a mod for it, or new features they wish to see in the base game, if I were a dev team member would definitely start looking at the mods, and start working on some of the more popular things that were downloaded first, and decide what else to do later

[ashen wadi]

LOL

[distant rampart]

"Lol Indeed"

[stone current]

adding onto this, just adding the features and working more closely with the community for very basic feature implementation would probably make people not even need to make mods anymore

[winged flume]

loll

[distant rampart]

THIS

[loud gale]

Imagine having modders put simple fixes 4 years in. Pathetic. People will hate this post cause it's the truth sadly.

[distant rampart]

This is why I did suggest a way to get these features added in so the modders wont be inclined to switch over to malicious mods.

[dawn knot]

THIS

[crisp anvil]

Phew this chat is spicy

[ashen wadi]

vrchat has the right to ban any mod user and developer for life, they're asking them nicely to stop, that's not "Strong arming"

[stone current]

like eye tracking and join messages for example, those are very simple things, should take only a little more time than solving the 20fps problem

[static frigate]

Actually on fire

[gleaming kraken]

yes cause im sure the devs will have a great time with modders to implement their awful bandaid fixes.

[crude tendon]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/705059321779847189/817646241584250910/image0.gif

[distant rampart]

The person they strong armed is not vrchat based, nor was the tool directly made for it, it is out of their moderation, and they were threatening them directly.

[pale plinth]

Runescape has an issue like this in the past that is a very good case to look at and understand why VRC is being all-or-nothing with Mods.

People in Runescape used to make clients to use plugins that made the game better (and still do), but malicious people would use the old clients and add their own code to them letting them bypass some of the hack checks in Runescape. Oversimplified.

People can use these 'friendly modding tools' to patch their own shit in which would make it impossible for any code checking systems VRC uses to distinguish and would 'hide' their malicious activities until they are manually reported.

[twin river]

We're not disagreeing with this. Their platform, their rules.

[distant rampart]

^^

[winged flume]

oh yea, the mod loader used has an endpoint which tracks statistics which is called every time someone opens the game with the loader and apparently weekly it gets hit 250k ish times for vrchat (dont quote me on this my memory's a bit fuzzy)

[gleaming kraken]

"A piece of tape on the side of a ship's hull to temporarily stop a hull doesn't mean that the person who applied it is fit to design boats." a moderator posted this last night and i think it perfectly sums up why having the devs work with modders is a bad idea

[weary jungle]

It's day 1 since good mods got banned, it's gonna blow out soon.

[unreal verge]

Would recommend to coma back tomorrow. That discussion might go another 24 hours

[loud gale]

Oh shit that's smart Conf

[winged flume]

1.5*

[distant rampart]

This discussion wont end tbh even if one of us stops, theres alot of people who feel strongly about it.

[loud gale]

Thanks for the idea since I now know how thsi can work for other games now

[distant rampart]

I don't expect it to end, but as long as it stays civil I'm fine.

[stone current]

im not saying they need to use the mod source code directly. but literally just binding to join and leave events shouldnt be something complicated

[unreal verge]

I'm siding with you guys

[weary jungle]

thank you good sir

[winged flume]

lol yep

bit too spicy for me too goin for the ez pickins

[stone current]

or just adding eye tracking floats to the list of several stuff thats already synced with IK over the network

[steady kayak]

I'm still skeptical of decagear

[pale plinth]

It's trivially easy to hide malicious stuff inside supported systems, thats why it took so long to crack down on malicious avatar features. So allowing even more shit that is outside VRCs control like modloaders etc just makes the issue infinitely harder to fix. Even if the mod makers arent malicious, malicious people will abuse their tools to hide their hacks.

[loud gale]

Althought I have to be realistic since this is spicy. Just cause you have a fix for the problem, implementing it into the giant network of actual code so it works may make errors that break something else or etc they are unaware of.

[crisp anvil]

Welp, i'm gonna chill and have some fun on VRChat. Hopefully this all blows over soon

[twin river]

I'd rather it stay civil, no need for people to get all up in arms about it. 😅
Discussions is how you progress, not fighting.

[gleaming kraken]

it sadly wont i feel. too many people feel too strongly about this topic for it to ever really die.

[worthy oracle]

have fun !

[stone current]

if im buying decagear it will be only the headset

[gleaming kraken]

frankly im not sure why im even still looking at this chat since it seems like a lost cause to try and convince these people

[distant rampart]

It isn't in their right to remove a platform for modding that isn't even vrchat based alone, regardless, remove one another one will come, its not the answer and its def not gonna stop it.

[pale plinth]

@loud gale That's also a bad idea and there's another example for this: There was a HUGE leak in Minecraft a while back because of a Mod someone made that had malicious code hidden in it that let them backdoor everyone's accounts.

[distant rampart]

yeah some people tried spamming and I don't like that.

[pale plinth]

Implimenting code from random people is a BAD idea.

[distant rampart]

Simple research shows most of the code they have has been verified and open sourced and has been improving the game for their users, now code OUTSIDE that discord is a different story.

I wouldn't trust anyone else or pay for them

[trail shale]

bc nothing is going to change for either side so just start bitchin and call it a day

[twin river]

Really? Might need to keep an eye on things a bit more then.

[weary jungle]

Sit back and eat some popcorn.

[twin river]

May be able to get more accurate numbers at a later date

[pale plinth]

Moreover the people protesting that VRChat isn't adding new QoL features by DDoSing VRChat and tying up developer resources are literally making the problem that they are bitching about. If people stopped 'protesting' and let the Devs actually just develop the damn game the features they want would come out much faster lmao.

[shrewd raft]

Another idea to help dial down users could be to create a chat so that people know what problems are being worked on, when the dev team gets enough complaints about something not functioning properly, or a new feature people want to see, it should get a bit more viewing than other things.

[gleaming kraken]

im pretty sure clients and mods are just technically the same concept, no? they just go hand in hand

[pale plinth]

This is typical VRC stuff lol people like to scream

[raw ivy]

Since when has that been happening?

[pale plinth]

It'll blow over in like a week max like every other outrage.

[candid acorn]

who is ddossing vrchat? there hasint been a vrchat ddos in a while

[ashen wadi]

ah yes just open the api, they should have thought of that!!

[twin river]

An example of a Client would be the VRChat Client. Mods are modifications to the client.
The widespread use of "Client" as a term for "mod" is incorrect.

[distant rampart]

Two sides of the same coin, one side is hostile and the other is passive, they are both being lumped together and the people who made a unity injector that isn't based on vrchat along is being blackmailed to take down their injectors with bans, people are angry at the aggressive approach.

[hoary drift]

oh my god please buy vrc+ 🤩

exactly.

[unreal verge]

Nah don't have money for VRC+

[raw ivy]

If the features that are provided by mods were in it, I would.

[frail magnet]

So, I have a question , just a general question. Is anything gonna be done about the raging pedophilia problem going on in vrchat? Or is it just gonna be ignored? And dont give me "Just report it" Because it clearly does nothing. I know this is off topic but thought it should be addressed

[pale plinth]

If the Devs allow clients/injectors to be used there is no way to tell the difference between positive and malicious mods. They can to ban them all.

[distant rampart]

That's what they are angry about, the good ones are being targeted and now it opens rooms for that 40% to go and use the more malicious not banned ones.

[hoary drift]

when is stuff like that not ignored

[stone current]

bans dont do anything really

[true birch]

Anyone having issues with video players recently? Just getting black screens since today all of a sudden.

[distant rampart]

I saw a really young person (under 14 prob) run around in a NSFW avatar and a fully grown adult was following them around making lewd remarks and other sus things

[frail magnet]

Like as a victim of child grooming i know what it looks and sounds like and well... Hate to break it to ya buuuuuuut

[pale plinth]

People have to report it for the issue to be fixed. You can automatically detect that shit or segment people.

[gleaming kraken]

giving mod creators more access to source code to "implement their fixes" sounds like a recipe for a massive flippin disaster if it goes into the wrong hands

[stone current]

for the people who casually mod on their main accounts they cant do nothing, but the repeat offenders in their massive discord cult just spoof hwid, ip, use vpn, and just reset their vms and log back in on an alt

[distant rampart]

People think banning the injector is gonna stop it too, but its not its just making it worse and more people will go to great lengths to fight back, regardless of mod makers intent.

[rancid jewel]

ಠ_ಠ
what
the fuck

[tranquil bronze]

all we want is a little bit of transparency

[sharp saddle]

Here we go again.

[frail magnet]

When i have to trap someone after they make a 14 year old have a mental breakdown. gather proof, AND REPORT IT. And nothing happenes its kinda sad ya know

[stone current]

you could say that to the quest avatar creators 🤣

[distant rampart]

I just woke up and saw it.

[trail shale]

sadly not much you can do about it over the internet but report it

[tranquil bronze]

yep

[wind frost]

I mean it a abig event people have the right to voice their opinion

[candid acorn]

there's obviously two big problems that vrchat has with mods, which they dont seem to know how to deal with.

not even getting into the issue of malicious modders and mods being way harder to actually deal with-

1. mods fix things that they dont prioritize/seem to be unable to fix, which makes their devs look bad
2. mods oftentimes introduce features that vrchat was considering monetizing, but they don't want to admit to it before they have to, so they just blanket ban and bandaid a specific mod. (like the nametag avatar prefab from a while back that decorated your nameplate- which they "fixed" by making nameplates randomly offset up or down a few inches, specifically put a new section for it in the TOS, and coincidentally, a few months later, VRC+ comes out, with surprise surprise, nameplate avatar icons.)

[sharp mica]

No opinions allowed on the internet, silly

[wind frost]

@sharp mica client users lmao

I'll kiss you mommy

[sharp saddle]

Licensing makes this difficult.

[distant rampart]

That's also why you must stay civil, because some were coming in here spamming and some are being hostile towards the other side on both fronts.

[candid acorn]

and 3, they are super protective and paranoid about competition, so they dont want anyone anywhere near vrc's internals in any capacity

[trail shale]

they would say otherwise but we are talking about the majority here

[distant rampart]

If a issue is big enough talk about it, but don't start attacking people.

[wind frost]

@surreal oasis I mean seemed kinda hostile

[rancid jewel]

i have been watching this chat for the past 4 hours and the conversation has not changed

[distant rampart]

I think purp was more surprised cause I was talking still, I have no issue with purp.

[pale plinth]

"mods fix things that they dont prioritize/seem to be unable to fix, which makes their devs look bad"

Devs are too busy fighting the malicious stuff people do with mods to fix shit lol. People tie up their resources and then wonder why they dont get anything done

[distant rampart]

Dw.

[gleaming kraken]

yes its been a circle of the same exact argument since last night

[candid acorn]

that's not how that works

[winged flume]

reaching out isnt that hard. creators can always make exceptions in their liscencnesncences

[hoary drift]

the vrchat iceberg but its just mods vs non mods

[candid acorn]

it's not the programmers that are going after modders. they have legal and moderation for that

[distant rampart]

The "malicious stuff people do" also has their own side, one person makes bad mods and the others have been countering them, but instead of going after bad modders, they strike the good ones and leave people defenseless.

Again one coin, two sides.

[frail magnet]

No me directly but younger kids who dont know how to protect themselves. Its something i wanted to bring up because i see it happen quite a lot and i mean you say nothing can be done but there is a reporting system for a reason. kinda sad how its just sitting there.

[pale plinth]

... yes it is. If you have 5 devs (vrc has more the number is not important) and 3 of them are busy fixing stuff thats 3 less people working on new features.

[potent fern]

Is the core users really for mods? seem like the core users are kids and casuals.

[pale plinth]

Its literally how this works, TF2 has had this issue for ages.

[sharp saddle]

#moderation-reports exists for this specific reason.

[trail shale]

i agree. esp after the Christmas kid quest boom its been more prevalent.

[frail magnet]

And yet again will i say they dont do a damn thing about it

[neat pebble]

ah yes because we need new features to add to the broken ones!
Amazing!

[sharp mica]

The root of that problem is that VRC is a free game, and trying to ban people on a FTP platform typically ends up being a waste of time. Always ways to circumvent, and new accounts are free.

[hoary drift]

Damn i like this game but this whole place is stubborn including the team

🍉

[wind frost]

I think the reason why mods have such a. Bad rap are the bad apples ina dozen that cause legal issues for the investors involved with the community ie stupid hacker groups /script kiddies

[fallow lotus]

The trust system was implemented to mitigate this but it’s a joke

[pale plinth]

People like screaming and dont wanna admit the issue is really complicated and annoying to fix

tl;dr

[sharp mica]

Eh, most crashers rely on bugs and issues in the unity game itself. Limitations of the engine.

[languid beacon]

... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIKUG_jIJf8

[neat pebble]

the trust system is a joke that is beyond laughable

[distant rampart]

It wont stop, they can ban all the peaceful people they want as well, but people are people like that one guy said it didn't work for alcohol or smoking, it'll just keep going but people will come back with worse things, its literally a breeding ground for encouraging more aggressive modding.

[gleaming kraken]

they will always get a bad rap the second you actually read vrchats ToS. its funny to see how people continue to defend this over and over..

[fallow lotus]

Oh boy I have a treat for some of the unity engine bugs I’ve found and they’re not pretty

[candid acorn]

the number is not important
a 20 dev team is way different than a 5 dev team.
You seem to present it as oh those poor devs who have to slave over fixes to prevent mods!
when they dont do shit. They are not doing anything to make the mods not work, the whole fuss is they are instead banning the modders themselves and holding their accounts hostage unless they stop distribution.

[neat pebble]

Trusted users are typically the people with crashing avatars lmao

[frail magnet]

And it clearly doesnt

[wind frost]

Explain to me how. A modification to a game that would improve user comfortability is bad for the game ?

[fallow lotus]

(I accidentally caused a 50GB memleak with particles once upon a time)

[wind frost]

Sirw its against tos but that does not mean it's inately bad

[distant rampart]

Theres a difference a huge line between: Wanting a more stable game VS using more malicious mods to ruin someone elses game.

[wind frost]

Sure*

[unreal verge]

That's true. And I say that myself as a trusted. I don't crash myself or anything though.

[candid acorn]

there's nothing illegal about that, that's silly. it's thuggish, but thats a silly thing to say

[gleaming kraken]

do YOU know what all that "good" mod is doing? can you read every line of it and find out that its completely safe.

[ashen wadi]

"no cops in my worlds" "THE DEV TEAM SHOULD BE ARRESTED"

[distant rampart]

If someone changes their UI they don't hurt anyone, but someone who causes other peoples screens to blackout are two very different things.

[vocal shard]

bruh i got banned for wearing a popcat avatar “avatar was hateful”

[sharp mica]

The point that is being made is not that VRC doesn't have the right to enforce a mod ban as it is against ToS, the point most people are trying to argue for that enforcing ToS in this manner is "stupid".

[distant rampart]

Rules can be changed.

[gleaming kraken]

or how about.. dont change the rules

[distant rampart]

Or atleast re-evaluated.

[neat pebble]

I have been known for about a year or two now
still waiting for that lovely Purple but that won't come because I don't crash people enough 🙂

[true sky]

I think at this point, people already dont like investors as its just people wanting money in their pockets over an actual good game and when the time comes, they pull right out. This isn't a VRChat only issue, just investors in general.

[gleaming kraken]

FUN FACT: modifications and custom clients are one of the biggest reasons for account theft!

[winged flume]

yes actually, all of the most popular mods are (actually were because the repos were privated in response to th ebans) open source and have been reviewed by moderators in the wholesome modding community. dont trust the moderators? read the code yourself!

[stable cargo]

Yes, actually, as it seems most of them had their code up on github

[wind frost]

All the mods within the modding group discord are checked to make sure no nonce is rating the community and to get those malicious mods you need to go out of your way to find

[winged flume]

lmao

[distant rampart]

Fun fact, the people who got hit didn't do this! and actually fought against it and still do!

[unreal verge]

You don't get that through crashing 🤔
I got it through uploading content

[trail shale]

i enjoy the better ik and higher fps. worth the ban to me

[neat pebble]

Yes, but also no. you are picking the bad's and hiding the goods from modding jackass

[candid acorn]

or how about, stop having a community? great idea.
this is a community driven game. Without the people who make content, it would not exist.
and those mods are content. they bugfix and improve user comfort.
Because vrchat is terrible at communication, and rarely prioritizes what people complain about

[wind frost]

I mean that's how it is when you get big corp within games

[vocal shard]

Yes we call it GitHub

[winged flume]

fun fact! cars are the bbiggest cause of death among teens!

[languid beacon]

I'm willing to bet it had nothing to with it being a popcat avatar.

[candid acorn]

you are being really silly.

[worldly summit]

Always use 2FA and a unique password.

[true birch]

come on dude .-.

[true sky]

what investors want over the community wants

[distant rampart]

What people don't realize somehow is the implications of removing the more passive modders, and treating them all the same, you're making it worse and I'd rather have a few people with better FPS than someone who is killing entire lobbys.

[vocal shard]

Dear lord, this is still going on?

[distant rampart]

It's not gonna stop its that massive of a issue, regardless if we do.

[true birch]

with a patch that seemingly totally broke video players and xbox gamepad inputs as far as I've noticed so far, lul

[gleaming kraken]

well im heading out. i can tell this chat is too far gone for literally anyone to stop.

[languid beacon]

Lmao.

[candid acorn]

the point is taken, but "this videogame I play in the comfort of my own home is not much different than this real life historical turmoil" is silly

[wind frost]

Yeah however run all fairness it's neccisary I bet w/out the money the game would be worse mostliekly

[gleaming kraken]

have fun advocating for completely unallowed things!

[winged flume]

actually the process is quite streamlined and is quote easy for beginners, there are even guides! (also mod is the corret term not client)

[neat pebble]

or you're too far gone to believe what we are saying

[vocal shard]

Im starting a headpat train now

[wind frost]

:(

[frail magnet]

And nothing gets done about it.

[distant rampart]

Then you clearly don't have situational awareness.

[vocal shard]

[distant rampart]

Yeah its bad in this game I saw more in the black cat as of late and more children there.

[winged flume]

I don't understand you, refusing to refute our rebuttals and then saying we don't provide evidence

[neat pebble]

Join the call sexy man

[frail magnet]

And people dont fucking understand that kids cant protect themselves. I sure as fuck couldnt

[wind frost]

I'm with my gm rn sorry big boy

[languid beacon]

Modded clients are 5% of userbase, best. Probably way less. You are delutional. Most people just play on Steam and don't break the rules.

[sharp mica]

This entire convorsation was explicitly allowed by Tupper, the community manager, and many of the other VRC team members who have been actively engaging (sporatically) with the community here, so.... wrong?

[unreal verge]

The creators aren't bashing them but the users lol
The creator said it's alright even IF they would take code from them. Not saying they did.

[neat pebble]

Boooo

[potent fern]

if people migrate into more aggressive modding it will only give that specific mod more exposure making it easier to ban/fix. This might create a cycle but its better than losing control of your game.
This type of issue is not unique to vrchat so as long as the Dev do not act to late, the game will be fine.

[vocal shard]

Vrchat would be shooting itself in the foot to ban all modders. It's a huge chunk of the player base

[distant rampart]

How so, I've been listening to each person and been civil?

[ancient folio]

@vocal shard pat pat

[distant rampart]

I never said they were bad, but misinformed.

[pure geyser]

@vocal shard :pet:

[vocal shard]

[distant rampart]

How much research have you done?

[vocal shard]

13 or older

[rancid jewel]

yes, you have to be at least 13 years old.

[candid acorn]

pretty sure the game is 13+

[iron cobalt]

13, I believe.

[distant rampart]

13+

[languid beacon]

There isn't one, which means it defaults to Steam and Facebook's age limit of 13+.

[distant rampart]

With parental permission

[shrewd raft]

Every online game has a requirement if 13+

[vocal shard]

Same for discord except in some countries where you have to be older

[frail magnet]

But the game could do something about it. and you know its 13+ yeah those are kids

[shrewd raft]

Quote being online

[distant rampart]

Do research more then you can say that.

[frail magnet]

Its happening on their platform

[winged flume]

theere is actually (https://hello.vrchat.com/legal) section 2 elligibility. first line

[distant rampart]

Keep it civil as well, as we are.

[true birch]

Yep, pretty much this. "Oh these poor martyrs getting attacked", so tired of this kind of defense-sheme

[unreal verge]

We don't have any stats though. Maybe more maybe less. As we can't say they're more you also can't say they're only 5% or less. You can't know yourself.

[frail magnet]

they need to do something

[distant rampart]

You haven't either so I don't treat you the same.

[pale plinth]

The most amusing part of this is that in a week all the people crying about leaving the game forever are going to be back and nobody will give a crap about all this drama lmao. Happens literally every time, I've watched this exact scenario play out like 5 times now with VRC pfft.

[languid beacon]

Perfect. No argument needed then, 13+ is allowed. Debate over.

[candid acorn]

people said the same thing yesterday morning.
yet we're still talking about it

[pale plinth]

1 day =/= a week

[vocal shard]

Don't know where you got that number from. Definitely larger than that.

[pale plinth]

Big Thonk

[distant rampart]

It's gonna keep going tbh regardless.

[frail magnet]

Thank you for having common sense btw

[winged flume]

this was never an arguement my friend, juist someone who forgot the age limit

[distant rampart]

I keep things civil, talk to me the same and I do.

[wind frost]

Mate this is blackmail/ massive ban wave of people who mod the game I'm most certain that it's not gonna end ina few days

[candid acorn]

i'm just saying. Im pretty sure vrc did not expect this kind of community reaction

[distant rampart]

Please do more research, that is a really low number.

[languid beacon]

I can't say with any certantly, no. But to claim "this game would be dead without mods" the delusion is real. Screw off with that lmao. mods don't do anything for this game.

[true sky]

true, but when there is little to no transparency and no response to made up rumors, it kinda just feeds people to believe any rumor someone starts.

[distant rampart]

^^

[vocal shard]

How many fucking times do we have to tell you

[winged flume]

its hard to know, based off the numbers i would guess atleast 10-20k of the active playerbase is modded atleast

[raw ivy]

I would also wager that the people who have VRC+ are much more than 50% mod users.

[winged flume]

percentage wise no idea

[distant rampart]

It's what the mods intend to do is the issue, like I said theres a HUGE difference between someone who crashes you and someone who uses mods to stop themselves from being crashed.

[limber aspen]

[vocal shard]

We could try comparing discord server sizes to each other, but not everyone who uses vrchat is in this server

Firewing ! Ayy

[limber aspen]

🍿

[vocal shard]

But we can still see it's a large amount

[limber aspen]

Sup

[steady kayak]

It is tbh

[candid acorn]

I can definitely say every other user Ive talked to, be it in friend groups or public, uses some QOL mod. sometimes just 1, sometimes several. none of them are EBIL HACKERZ

[winged flume]

also keyword many people add, active not just playerbase

[frail magnet]

[winged flume]

oops wrong ping myb

[wind frost]

I wish the people who make the banning decisions like this would be more forward in their desicion Since that would allow them to gauge community support and or dissent so that issues like this don't spring forward when huge discussions are made like this

[unreal verge]

I agree. It would definitely not die. But it may make a hit in active players for a while if suddenly all mod users would get banned. You may then have not 40k on weekends but 20k or whatever. No one knows. But that hole would eventually fill up with new people again.

[distant rampart]

It's too big of a issue its prob gonna keep going either way, even if we don't, but as long as it stays civil its okay.

[vocal shard]

Are yall watching this chat eating popcorn in dango? Imma join vc @limber aspen

[worldly summit]

Most of the people on my friendlist that have VRC+ are running mods 🤷‍♀️

[wind frost]

@true sky sorry forgot to reply

[distant rampart]

There are way more than 1000 people using mods.

[limber aspen]

Yes

[vocal shard]

Imma drop by in the vc

[winged flume]

can we just all agree its a fairly substantial amount ?

[distant rampart]

simple research can show you.

[pale plinth]

This reaction has happened every time VRC has done literally anything, of course they expected it. They have watched this cycle repeat more times than I have, I'm sure they noticed. They don't care because nobody sticks to their guns, or so few people do that it doesn't matter. VRC is growing exponentially, we've passed the previous peaks repeatedly this last year.

There is always a minority of dissenters and they are always the loudest so they look more numerous than they actually are. In reality all of this drama is like. 100 people max out of several thousand lmao. There is no reason for them to care when people start screaming because its so few people in the big picture that its meaningless.

[distant rampart]

Again, do more research.

[trail shale]

im a mod and vrc+ user. i want to support the devs platform that ive been on for 3 years but i also think they are dip shits half the time

[candid acorn]

I would say it is if nothing else a varied amount, because I've seen it in many different groups with real different cultures and such

[frail magnet]

Yo can i dm, same with you @distant rampart

[vocal shard]

This isn't definitive but one of the largest mods has a discord server with over 20,000 people just online

[distant rampart]

Ye go ahead

[loud gale]

Oh right 20k+ online

Thats not counting offline, which is usually 5x the amount

[vocal shard]

anyone know some cool boruto skins

[distant rampart]

But I will say theres more people who use PASSIVE, but theres alot that use aggressive as well.

Way more than 5%

[loud gale]

so 120k people usually. Say just 5% uses that, its 6k people

[raw ivy]

All the VRC+ users I know, are using mods.