So it's bannable then ?
#vrchat-general-2
uncut trail
umbral reef
Of you get found out and they strike you yes
weary parrot
Hey I have a question. Is Playspace mover bannable? Some say yes, some say no
weary parrot
Because a friend got banned and the only thing she had was play space mover and it said she was banned for a client
rigid crescent
theyre likely lying or were daisy chained tbh
umbral reef
They can email support to explain/appeal the ban
But even those 'vrchat supported clients' or any of that jazz is bannable
weary parrot
Sorry, didn’t mean to call
indigo fern
Happens, discord buttons are a lil pepega
umbral reef
As people who are close to client users get clapped?
vocal shard
Daisy people?
vale wave
Daisy me rollling , they hatin'
vocal shard
🪓
vale wave
choppy choppy
rigid crescent
yeah, people who upload or have been uploaded for
umbral reef
Don't they get clapped for ban evasion
vocal shard
Daisy? Where did that come from
rigid crescent
daisy chaining
they can yeah, the prrson i spoke to got a month and the other 3 days
both first offense
oblique latch
Hi
vocal shard
they did it they finally freed fever dream
vocal shard
hy guys can i get your opinion on my vrchat world i created
queen mango
Aren't you a Discord bot?
uncut trail
wtb fix for these dumb crashers like disable damn effects
still lark
@uncut trail You've seen the safety system, right?
pseudo basalt
can't stop the shader crashes when they change your avatar 😔
vocal shard
Just use a modded client yourself 
pseudo basalt
just crash the crashers 
broken plover
^
pale timber
big brain
true sky
Is it me or is 2fa been acting up lately? I was able to sign into my vrchat account yesterday and now, it just says that it doesn't work. I have synced my times in the authenticator app and still can't get passed the 2fa screen.
uncut trail
WTB more Virtual Market's worlds xD
grim canopy
@pseudo basalt might sound good, but then you’ll be the suspect... and not just that, you’ll be stepping down to his level!!! It would not be wise so I wouldn’t do it if I were you.. Thanks 
wicked mirage
Someone made a fork of ALVR that streams quest finger tracking and by the looks of the code emulates knuckles controller for it so it works in vrc https://twitter.com/A3_yuu/status/1224320892286537729
misty abyss
Way to go, vrc. Banning respected members of community, while crashers are still plaguing the game.
twin fractal
who?
polar jasper
Yeah, curious on who these members would be.
frosty veldt
Well what did he do that warrented a ban?
twin fractal
"respected"
cold talon
he was too respected 😔
misty abyss
yeah, he is respected by hundreds of people, since he does an amazing job, and brought a lot of good to a lot of people.
he was using vrctools to hide his hardware id
polar jasper
Well, there you go
rancid flame
Break the tos you get banned
light pivot
lol, breaks TOS, gets banned for TOS violation, surprised pikachu
twin fractal
I know who they are I don't need the run down lol
misty abyss
well its not like vrc stuff can protect anyone of us
rancid flame
Is there something I'm missing here? But just because you are popular doesn't name you immune
light pivot
hiding 'hardware id' is for ban evasion in the first place, not to protect yourself against other people
slate verge
thats true, but one would think that they were already normally respected in the first place
frosty veldt
@rancid flame Yeah it's a good thing
rancid flame
Yes
misty abyss
well i wasnt going to say anything, in hopes that ban wave will get rid of crushers, which is not the case here
so good guys got banned, bad ones still at large
frosty veldt
Banning crashers is like crushing flies. Even if you get rid of hundreds there will.be more
misty abyss
thats how you maintain the game
rancid flame
He broke the tos. He isn't a "good guy"
light pivot
if they were breaking TOS they weren't a 'good guy' anyway
rancid flame
Don't break the tos and you will be fine
pseudo basalt
Good guys got banned, bad guys also get banned and evade
twin fractal
kinda cringe that you're surprised they got banned for using client on they ERP/social event join account and are seriously posting that here
misty abyss
80% of vrc players break tos daily lmao
rancid flame
You can't evade a real ban
Just because a lot of people do doesn't make it right lmao
light pivot
maybe 80% of the people you hang out around
frosty veldt
Most people don't use clients but most client users think everyone uses clients
rancid flame
I have maybe 1 dude on my friends list who uses a modded client
twin fractal
while I want the crashers gone as much as anyone else I'm not surprised that all client users are getting clapped rn
light pivot
complaining that someone with a modified client got banned while others are crashing is like complaining when a shoplifter gets arrested because people are out there drunk driving
rancid flame
If 80% of people use a modded client we would have seen a massive drop in players online
misty abyss
iam not surprised about the bans goddam, i surprised that bans dont affect crashers.
pseudo basalt
There's no reason for them not to affect them, they just evade
light pivot
it's almost like they banned the people they were able to detect for a violation, and it's not always 100% clear who is and isn't crashing people
frosty veldt
Hard to get proof sometimes imo
misty abyss
oh sry, not surprised, game security was always shitty
slate verge
doesn't make it any better if you shit on the shitty security anyway
frosty veldt
Or if you crash you just boot again and move on
vocal shard
Can't get banned of no one report you
misty abyss
i have strong phantom sense and those crashes fuck me up too much. i dont go to publics anymore because of this
slate verge
thats good, avoid public instances
vocal shard
Crash them first
frosty veldt
VR arms race 🤢
slate verge
can you still get crash even if you use safety settings?
frosty veldt
Only thru clients
light pivot
there's a few ways it can still happen yeah
misty abyss
yeah, there is a new hack now
vocal shard
That's what I always do when I join a public instance
pseudo basalt
There wouldn't be mass crashings if everyone had crashers 😔
misty abyss
they force avatar on you that crashes you on startup
light pivot
i get crashed maybe once every month or two
slate verge
oh that one, i heard about that one
light pivot
usually along with the entire instance
cold talon
not cool svel
slate verge
i haven't had any crashes ever since i have safety settings on
desert stratus
lol svel
pseudo basalt
I crash randomly even when i'm alone so I don't know when I get crashed or my game decides to die
misty abyss
never went public without shaders turned off from everyone, and still got crashed a lot
rancid flame
I join later in the night and don't see any crashers
twin fractal
I've only crashed from shaders
slate verge
only times i crashed a couple of times were my lighthouse being ass or vr controllers disconnected
pseudo basalt
There's a lot of different ways to crash. You should disable animations instead
frosty veldt
I just avoid streamer lobbies and I'm pretty fine
light pivot
turning off animations alone gets rid of nearly all of the individually targeted crashes
pseudo basalt
But clients will still get you
rancid flame
I have animations disabled for everyone but trusted users and friends
twin fractal
which is why clients are bannable lol
cold talon
shader crashers :nothanks:
mesh crasher :yesplz:
misty abyss
you cant be safe from ddos with any safety
slate verge
with my safety settings i have everything off for everyone except friends. Every rank has avatar and audio on only.
vocal shard
Wtf not cool bahka
pseudo basalt
I heard if you shut off steam they can't get your ip
rancid flame
Or just use a vpn
light pivot
ddos can't happen if they don't have your IP, they can't get your IP if you aren't running steam or you block a couple relevant ports
and that's going to be fixed soon anyway
frosty veldt
I thought steam API was changing to hide IP
cold talon
what?
pseudo basalt
Also fuck having to use a vpn for this honestly
frosty veldt
It was in patch notes but I dunno when it's going to be released
vocal shard
Wdym not cool?
misty abyss
lol vpn, its like 250 ping is not enough
slate verge
you shouldn't have to use vpn in the first place unless you live in a specific country
broken plover
@ tupper build vpn direclty in the game
light pivot
I know it's in the 2018 build, not 100% on whether or not it's in live yet, haven't checked
pseudo basalt
live hasn't had an update in forever
twin fractal
you honestly don't need a VPN and I'll never use one
light pivot
well yeah, efforts are going to 2018 build atm
pseudo basalt
Last update was like 2 months ago and I don't expect them to update it at all until 2018
vocal shard
Let me grab your IP real quick
With the power of random numbers I can now ruin your life
What a tragedy and all of that from a simple IP address
pseudo basalt
If they are then this crasher stuff's really delaying the whole thing
But i doubt there will be an update until 2018
light pivot
2018 is coming along, just a few items holding it back right now, there's a ton of changes under the hood with it so it's taken a while
misty abyss
Why vrc is not monetizing? There are a lot of people who willing to pay even monthly to play a normal game
cold talon
because the content on the platform
vocal shard
Ask them
light pivot
pretty sure they're figuring out their strategy for that kind of thing right now, given recent investment and job openings
wheat bronze
they've said multiple times that they plan to have a marketplace
misty abyss
oh, will it be in a next update?
frosty veldt
No
wheat bronze
nah it's a work in progress but it's definitely something they plan to have eventually
misty abyss
a marketplace for what? we can create anything anyway
desert stratus
Avatars
misty abyss
eeh
light pivot
people don't always want to create things themselves
polar jasper
The amount of legal stuff they have to go through before this too isn’t something that can be done on the spot
desert stratus
like booth but in-game
light pivot
look at the popularity of booth
misty abyss
whats a booth?
indigo fern
i mean, theres vket every year
vocal shard
Basically a copy past of the same model with different clothes
misty abyss
hmm
desert stratus
lol
devout berry
@pseudo basalt Steam cannot be shut down when an app/a game installed through it is running. + every time you launch VRChat directly from the exe, it will start Steam automatically. And I don't know if anyone else have this problem, but if I launch the game through it's executable, Steam will tell me, that the last update was corrupted and the app configuration wasn't found. After this error message, Steam will kill VRChat. And no, when I launch from Steam, this doesn't happen - from Steam it works normally.
If you close Steam while something with Steam integration is running, the app/game will be terminated on Steam exit.
devout berry
How?
pseudo basalt
.exe
devout berry
I tried everything, but VRChat will always call Steam when launched outside from it!
pseudo basalt
literally just double click the exe, not some shortcut that calls steam
devout berry
And then Steam throws error and kills the game.
I got Steam starting itself while launching the VRChat exe.
Even with --no-vr argument!
pseudo basalt
My exe doesn't start steam, i dunno what's up with yours
pseudo basalt
Steam vr is only started if you start it in vr
But then it's still not steam starting, just steam vr
devout berry
Weird. Somehow, mine starts Steam. Would you want a video, so you can see it? I can shoot it tomorrow. Today, I have to study more linear algebra.
pseudo basalt
Maybe
true sky
I think i lost 2 years of work because 2fa being garbage. thought i saved my backup codes and might have deleted them on accident while cleaning my computer up as i was running low on disk space. Not sure if there is another method to get it back or not?
i have tried syncing through the auth app and no luck at all trying to get into the website to disable and re-enable 2fa so i can set it up fresh again
devout berry
Same 2FA is on Discord. Lessons learned: NEVER keep your backup code ONLY on your PC's HDD. Put them also on some external media and maybe even your phone.
ruby needle
Or.... print them and physically store them with the other important things
vocal shard
just print them in your brain
true sky
im not going to make an alt and reupload 3 worlds and 200+ avatars again
cold talon
hack the 2fa database and get back into your account 
true sky
yeah, i dont have the brains to do that now do i?
desert stratus
time to send in a support ticket and pray
true sky
ill submit one and wait for it to allow me to re-setup 2fa or lose the account and start all over again, which wont happen
submitted the ticket
gonna 🙏
might as well buy the replacement print head while i wait for a response to the email as the print head on my printer just smears the ink
😔
fringe forge
Just got my vr headset yesterday
limpid pivot
@fringe forge i'm jealous
grim canopy
@fringe forge Congratulations 🎉🎈🎊 trust me at first it’s like trippy, then it’ll get better...
vocal shard
pale timber
hi jamie
eternal locust
snow wadi
vocal shard
boop
inland arch
boop
coarse aurora
hold up
whole spindle
FINALLY i did it i made my avtar work!!! hopefully it isnt back wards this time XD
dreamy bobcat
compact river
@snow wadi is it just me or are those kfc birds getting... Larger these days
west dock
Is there no vc's in this server?
vocal shard
@west dock there is. it's called VRChat :P in all seriousness though, why do you need a voice chat on a discord server for an app that has a voice chat?
vocal shard
your conversations wont be of high quality if you're in more than one voice chat at once. try to keep the quantity down and the quality up
hi
timid nacelle
heyo
vocal shard
🙂
vocal shard
🙂
not that i'm aware of
they updated audio last year I doubt they have much plans om updating audio further
it would be nice
gilded helm
To be fair
VRC discord community is different from VRC community
sometimes it feels like I'm talking to people playing a different game
wet sluice
Yea, but some of us (me) are weirdos in all cases
faint skiff
10 seconds in the Pug before running into someone using a client to noclip and abuse physics
sterile ingot
I was falling through the floor last night.
rancid flame
they need to do another banwave. could catch a lot more people as they wont be expecting it
sterile ingot
I am having lots of problems with VRChat tonight. Being slow and weird when I have the VPN turned off and I SHOULD have the fastest connection.
rancid flame
run a speed test
see what your ping is at. maybe someone drilled into an optic fiber cable
rancid flame
what about the ping?
sterile ingot
What am I pinging, VRC?
sterile ingot
I just told you the results from a speed test . . .
wet sluice
Ping and speed to speedtest is not your connection to the photon cloud network and aws.
Don't know of something similar for photon though
frail adder
Speedtest generally will just sing a ping to your ISP and back to you to know if you are getting a connection to your ISP
sterile ingot
41 minutes for the AWS test 😕
sterile ingot
AWS is a confusing beast. Funny, I was just talking with an Amazon employee a moment ago.
I only kept their servers running for around 3 years.
Hardware-wise
wet sluice
AWS has some of the worst networking of the cloud providers out there
At least in reliability and latency. Price to throughput ratio is good though.
sterile ingot
4 threads - 23.68
2 threads - 43.55
Latency - 24.5
wet sluice
I get 4x the throughput at twice the latency. That should be fast enough for most worlds though.
ionic steeple
E
nocturne valve
slender otter
Anyone know if they are going to ever increase the favorite avatar list, feel like there would be a lot less mod users for that specific reason
16 avatars is such a small ammount
indigo fern
probably not for a while, we're only at 16 because one of the devs felt like 3 wasn't enough
since yea, it started at 3
fading flower
slender otter
I have one specifically for having more favorite slots, really feel like 16 is not enough
pseudo basalt
Well that's great and all but it's not exactly allowed
umbral reef
Can't wait for that client to trigger some flaggs and see people get banned
'but I did nothing baaadd'
narrow quail
I wish there wasn’t a wait for the index. I want to get I to VR already. Lol
hollow sluice
Already happened
umbral reef
Not in large waves so far I have seen
hollow sluice
I mean some of the mods actually give performance benefits and add features that should be in the game by now. I dont think users of those should be banned since they arent affecting anyone else
Like forcing low end mirrors, better safety settings, global dynamic colliders and so on
umbral reef
Well cant disagree with that if its purely client side things and does not effect anyone else its ait in my book
But there is no way to check that form VRC's side so i just wheeze when they do get banned
hollow sluice
Thats true. But we dont really have other choices
Use mods, lag or play like a quest user. Those are your options when it comes to performance
devout berry
@pseudo basalt Did some troubleshooting. I found, that the Steam weirdness was happening only when I launch from web with my mode selecting modified launch .bat. Somehow, when I used start command instead of cd-ing to the directory and calling exe, it did something with Steam. Fixed it by doing it, as the original did.
pseudo basalt
see
devout berry
But it is weird, that the start command was the wrong thing, when it just bypassed one cd command.
ruby burrow
One of the issues VRC is currently facing, is that client users now have enough unearned power to become a fairly substantial menace for any person or community that's high profile enough to become targeted.
Eg, a large sub-community starts having issues with a problem/toxic individual, perhaps for malicious client use even, and so their moderators naturally ban that person from the group.
If that person is enough of a petty vengeful sadact, they can have the means to continue to torment the group that exiled them for months if they want to.
umbral reef
That has sadly always been the case
Its just way more normalized now that any simp can manage to do it and ruin someones week
ruby burrow
Mhmm. Has just become easier over time. Most specifically in regards to accessing instances people shouldn't be able to.
umbral reef
And instead of fixing and rebuilding the base they go for feature creep
ruby burrow
The in-game controls of blocking or the safety system, are utterly incapable of fighting someone who does that, which forces the staff/moderators of such a community to get their own mods/clients if they hope to do anything about it. Which only further normalises and spreads the use of this stuff, which makes the problem more likely to occur.
umbral reef
Ey, i been saying this stuff for ages
Pretty much so long that i dont care anymore
devout berry
Which just makes a bigger group for the offic. mods to clap out!
umbral reef
What barely happens are reporting is still a bitch to do
ruby burrow
Even the local only and generally harmless mods, and VRC not managing to compete on providing those desired features, also contribute to normalising it all.
umbral reef
Id love to know how many people are currently still stuck with a crash avatar without a way to get out of it without knowing they are
Just thinking the game is permantly broken for them and giving up on playing
devout berry
@ruby burrow It is much easier to clap out anyone, who knows about the workings they shouldn't or are modifying the game, than to evaluate and approve hordes of mods.
umbral reef
Its also easier in the long run to solve the bullshit actions clients can do
devout berry
"Nope!" It is easier to ban community when they find the cure themselves! @umbral reef
umbral reef
How the fuck is banning everyone and allowing users to moderate themself better then to actual solve the core problem?
Thats like saying we will build a second dam incase the first dam breaks instead of repairing it
devout berry
That is just one click on the ban button - fixing is too much keyboard slamming! 🤣
umbral reef
one click
Who does the banning? What proof do they need? Actually having to look at that proof
ruby burrow
I never suggested hordes of paid official moderators. That's simply financially infeasible.
devout berry
Probably I should watch my tongue - I am just making fun of the staff...
ruby burrow
The game mainly just needs stronger internal security to prevent half of the crap clients do being possible in the first place.
devout berry
How about getting some community mods - same as on Discord server, you just turn over the power to user you trust?
ruby burrow
Secondly it needs more robust in-game reporting tools, to help a smaller team of official moderators make informed decisions.
umbral reef
So you want to give the powers to strangers who have no reason to moderate properly beside that they want to keep the power?
devout berry
Not the strangers.
umbral reef
So friendship bias?
Also whats to prevent them from clapping someone for a pitty as fuck reason when they get angry if they have these powers?
devout berry
As on Discord, select from known users, who play looong time and the team knows they are reliable.
umbral reef
Using this discords mods as an example aint neato, kinda makes it clear as to why you should not do it
Also most discord mods suck for that exact reason
ruby burrow
Officially verified and approved community game modifications would at least help solve the problem with users being drawn to client use for the sake of non-malicious features.
umbral reef
Then they would need to check each client that wants to make special crap
Else there is no way to confirm they aint bad
devout berry
@ruby burrow But that won't happen - it is easier to ban them all. "Gotta ban them all!" 🤣
snow wadi
There shouldn't be modified clients PERIOD.
I don't buy into this Good Guys Bad Guys horse shit.
umbral reef
The steps that should be taken imo after the 2018 update
- Improve the ingame security and from my part remove feature like they did in the past.
- Actually get some proper ingame reporting
- Think about a 'prioirty queue' for users who have reported properly in the past. (Only handle tickets faster, same proof needed, same context needed, no extra bullshit, just faster for bad bad things)
devout berry
@snow wadi We can easily go paranoid and detect any clients, that are not properly linked to Steam/Oculus store - then you see the mod, because who links modified stuff to original platform? No one. But then we would have bans for launching without Steam.
snow wadi
There shouldbt be a need to use such clients in the first place, its original intent is for malicious activities and thus THAT is what should be taken down.
snow wadi
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, wrong is wrong.
ruby burrow
There's plenty of these mods/clients that have zero malicious functions, and provide no un-due powers a person shouldn't have.
But the existence of them still only draws people closer to the bad ones.
snow wadi
Reverse engineering the software is against the ToS, again this is not up for debate at all.
vocal shard
not using a modded client to prevent crash
Sad 😔
devout berry
@ruby burrow It is the same as with minecraft - to minimalize hackers, ban mods on your server and use vanilla. Then ban users with modloader. The game wasn't ever meant to be modified.
rigid crescent
I understand why people use non-malicious ones, but I mean it's still technically bad
well, not bad, but against TOS
snow wadi
As I said earlier, it's STILL breaking ToS.
ruby burrow
It's against the rules. I don't inherently see that as bad, spare for the part where it normalises using the stuff.
rigid crescent
Yeah, against the rules = / = bad
devout berry
@snow wadi You know what I think? We should aggressively start to clap out people that say ANY mod is good! They are trying to stand for "illegal" stuff!
indigo fern
No one's saying it's not against the rules, we know
ruby burrow
Law and morality are not the same thing.
rigid crescent
We're saying people do have a somewhat legitimate reason to use them, which they wouldn't have if people weren't doing bad shit with them
wet sluice
HvH argument right here
umbral reef
Hvh?
snow wadi
The issue is to be fixed from the inside, not outside. Which is taking down the malicious users first.
rigid crescent
They don't actively Moderate, Qhala. You know this.
ruby burrow
It's obviously against the rules regardless. But dismissing people as criminals without paying attention to the real situation of why people are being drawn to this, is guaranteed to fail.
devout berry
Where is the rule 26 - Mod discussion = mute, on second offense ban???
umbral reef
It's not just fixing the exploits tho
Better and more active moderation also
vocal shard
With how many malicious users are out here, I prefer to use a modded client that will prevent them from crashing me or changing my avatar to a self crash
rigid crescent
Dude, shut up. We're having a legitimate discussion
If you did use one, you mean 🙂
snow wadi
Yes I know the platform in-game lacks moderation and it does make things a little tougher.
umbral reef
@devout berry never knew we where in a 1934 Germany
vocal shard
Of course 🙂
rigid crescent
If there was even a HINT of ingame moderation, people would be more scared to use them
umbral reef
Laughs in a chatmods not being able to report faster even anymore
rigid crescent
but I've literally been in lobbies with people using them while hanging out around devs
vocal shard
Last time I saw a mod in game it was 2017
devout berry
How you want to mod thousands of worlds? It is easier to go on report basis.
rigid crescent
Yeah Qhala, they prevented the chat mods from pushing reports (except for the special ones, I'd assume) simply because it might be a form of active moderation
Rampa, again you're talking without knowing what you're talking about
indigo fern
Did they walk up to them and say I have client or something
rigid crescent
ONE moderator could spend an hour, tops, going into the most populated public instances and easily clap dozens
All it takes is making people think twice before using them
snow wadi
No they outright noclipped in front of them lol
rigid crescent
But they refuse to do that for seemingly no reason.
umbral reef
Give credit worthy peeps a clear 'how to report' page
Get there reports taking up faster as the bar for proof should be easy to reach each time
snow wadi
Well ruuubick ended it with "really?" XD
indigo fern
Wish someone shadowplayed it, sounds fun
rigid crescent
in b4 we're all kicked like he did to Sasha lol
ruby burrow
I've had a conversation with Ron in-game, whilst three people present I knew to be using mods. Though Ron doesn't have any dynamic bones on his avatar, so is safe from those people.
rigid crescent
Like I said, all it takes is a HINT of active moderation and bans to make people think twice
But they refuse to and I really can't see a reason why.
Like what possible excuse is there for not doing something as simple as that?
indigo fern
Too busy planning Japan trip 2 electric boogaloo
rigid crescent
lol
Takes all of an hour's worth of "work" to vibe in a few publics and scare people off the shit
devout berry
@snow wadi WTH?! Mod users walk up in front of devs and noclip? Those had to be some idiots! 🤣
indigo fern
Just change their dev nameplate to mod and roam around
rigid crescent
I mean I watched a dude drop a Hard R in front of Tup and literally just have him say "yikes" while the dude hangs out in the lobby for a few more hours, sooo
lol imagine moderating with nameplate tags on
what a surefire way to make sure you never catch anyone
umbral reef
Like that isnt even needed
Just seeing people vanish constantly when they do dumb shti in public should make people think for a second
rigid crescent
while making yourself a target
indigo fern
Moderating while visible 💦
umbral reef
Into the shadowrealm you go jimbo
ruby burrow
@devout berry One of my favourite moments back in 2018, was an instance containing both a dev and several chat mods, hanging out in that snowy Undertale bar. Some random guy joins the instance, and walks through the door in a KKK avatar waving a nazi flag spamming some horrible distorted audio and meme particles.
Gone before he knew what he'd walked into.
rigid crescent
the only way to actually get caught, outside of the system doing it, is literally walking up to devs or one of their little friends and blaring it
like that's not how you moderate a game
the only reason that i can think of for them not moderating actively is because they know they'd catch a lot of people and lose players, but its not like youre losing any good ones
umbral reef
WEll apparently it is 👀
rigid crescent
Like when a teacher is trying to be the "cool teacher"
umbral reef
Pretty sure if a big part of the toxic bullshit got removed from public new users would actually stick around
My alt has so many low ranked users that havent been online in ages its kinda sad
vocal shard
More weebs 😔
rigid crescent
More programmers 🙂
indigo fern
💦
rigid crescent
☔
indigo fern
Lmao
ruby burrow
Yeah. I said the same a year ago, about how new users needing to survive the no-mans land of trolls and crashers is a real detriment to the community.
rigid crescent
While it's really not that hard, better publics would obviously be a plus
indigo fern
I love going in publics and finding new users that are enjoying the game for the first time, it's refreshing
rigid crescent
I've had a friend on an alt be mute trying to "start over" and somehow make it back into his old circle of friends without even trying in less than a week lol
indigo fern
Interacting with them and taking their fresh energy so I can last longer
ruby burrow
Would be an interesting game, trying to do that deliberately.
rigid crescent
I've tried on mine
ruby burrow
New account, find your friends.
indigo fern
It's like that Wikipedia game where you start on a random page and try to get to another one
rigid crescent
Only managed to meet a few
umbral reef
@indigo fern Legit all i do in the game rn is talk to new users and visit worlds all solo
Nothing else is really enjoyable, most non new users in public suck and i always dislike privates so
ruby burrow
Wait, so N8 is a vampire of newbie energy? ._.
rigid crescent
We need to add you to the "just talk to people, forehead" squad with me and Ghosto
ruby burrow
I do enjoy hanging out with new users, but I'm awkwardly adverse to the friend requests that inevitably comes with it.
rigid crescent
Stream Team: Social Vampires
I mean I just accept it then remove them later knowing i'll never see them again, then just plan to blame it on the game if i eve do
assuming i dont want ot add thme
rigid crescent
I wish I bothered to get my alt to trusted
I wanna adopt some newbies
bring them into the fold
indigo fern
Same tbhonest
rigid crescent
Social Experiment time
indigo fern
I told someone id get my alt to trusted and I haven't done it yet 😱
That was like last year
rigid crescent
I'm gonna get my alt to User
then roam around pubs in full body, so people immediately know im alpha
then just adopt newbies on it
indigo fern
Full body new user coming through 🦵
rigid crescent
Hmmm
ruby burrow
Not too long ago I met this group of brand new newbies, that had somehow gathered and were all wearing the same storm trooper avatars. They'd seemingly barely been around the game yet, and were all trying to teach each other the little bits they'd learned (such as how to jump, even).
rigid crescent
I need to slap together a nice Booth edit I guess
I planned on buying something "out of character" for a while now anyway, I guess
ruby burrow
One person thought I was "an admin" due to my purple nametag and "ability to fly". It was a pretty wholesome exchange.
Took them all on a virtual African safari. Had a long conversation about the future of VR with the oldest of them, who was a big VR nerd yet had til then been avoiding VR-Chat because he'd gotten the impression it was all knuckles memes.
rigid crescent
bruh some of these youtube bois are wholesome
Honestly my favorite "starting story" is when streamer friends tell me they've met people who joined because of them
Like they didn't do it to try and meet them, they just enjoyed what they saw and decided to play and got into their own circles and whatnot
umbral reef
soo they made normal friends and not clout whores
ruby burrow
That's a very substantial portion of the userbase really.
People who joined due to streamers/youtubers, I mean.
umbral reef
Owww im dumb dumb and understood mic wrong
Well cant deny i played a lot more after the first Naggz vid 🤷♂️
ruby burrow
My initial introduction to the game was Naggz/Ryan/Matsix/Oathmeal etc.
I saw a silly tomato loli pulling unreasonable amounts of soda from a vending machine whilst a mafia guy protested, and thought, these are my people.
rigid crescent
I think I only ever saw him when a friend finished his meetup map, but they're pretty close I think. He's super nice
ruby burrow
I just meant their videos, but would be cool if I ever chanced across meeting them someday.
rigid crescent
A lot of my friends know Oath but I've only met them a few times, and they're mute so 💤
indigo fern
Yea, watching the videos automatically made me just think why not play the game myself, still ended up watching for a while anyway
rigid crescent
I don't remember how I started playing but it wasnt due to any videos
I think I just saw it and thought "oh look" then got VR like a month later
ruby burrow
Met Matsix once, and saw Oath for about two seconds. Not the others. I don't do the celebrity/streamer hunting stuff, but would still be my four slot VR-Chat bingo card to complete.
indigo fern
Think I downloaded it after like one video, mainly because I didn't know the game existed lmao
ruby burrow
I watched videos for the first half of 2018, with this aversion to the idea of trying it in desktop mode.
umbral reef
Well i stated VRC before i watched video's
I got VR kinda because of them
devout berry
Does even Nagzz play at all nowadays or he stopped playing VRChat?
indigo fern
I think I bought a wmr like after a week or two of desktop
umbral reef
Im pretty sure i memed with a fair bit of content creators before they got big
Big my dumbass brain forgets them evne before i left the room
@devout berry He stopped playing pretty much
indigo fern
He streams other games a lot now
devout berry
Streaming more than VRC, eh?
umbral reef
Big sad because that guy is pure love and fun
indigo fern
Made a new YouTube channel for clips of his streams
umbral reef
I often lurk in his streams and its like just fun seeing him have fun with chat 👀
indigo fern
Mhm, nice guy
devout berry
Yeah, last few streams, chat was requesting Malding in the night a lot! 🤣
ruby burrow
Many of the original bigger content creators do still play VR-Chat, they just don't make it their content anymore.
They've discussed on twitter how whilst at first the game was just a chaotic pot full of easy content to enjoy wading through, VR friends gradually become real friends, and what used to be content becomes their personal social/private life, not really something to be broadcast.
indigo fern
Makes sense, the games environment changed so it's good most got with the times
ruby burrow
Plus... the old school "VRC is so random" content doesn't half pull views like it used to anyway.
rigid crescent
He does his patreon meetups in VRC still I think
A friend did the map that he does it on, its super nice
kinda wish it was public
oh wait, I think it is
indigo fern
Pog?
indigo fern
Ooo, nice thumbnail too
rigid ore
I feel like the randomness of vrc isn't like it use to be. You didn't expect to marry Ronald McDonald or fall into a bunch of fruit loops. Now adays the content hasn't been as outlandish. Not saying some of the newer stuff is bad it's just i find the fun in what interesting games people have made. That Dead Space world was extremely well done back when it came out last year and i still enjoy it. Not to mention that one horror map with the eater drop guy actually got me a couple of times though most horror in this game and even indie games i don't react to. But i do wish people would make more games or even just great concepts
Instead of just a small box with a mirror and a few interactable objects
pseudo basalt
There's definitely going to be a resurgence once udon comes out
umbral reef
You will love udon then
We can make some insane shit with it
Like full MMORPG's that save contents
rigid ore
I really hope so but I'm scared to work with it rn which i was going to but ik how vrc kinda messed up almost every world a few times
wet sluice
That functionality doesn't exist rn tho.
rigid ore
I can no longer play some worlds cause doors won't work
indigo fern
What functionality?
umbral reef
@wet sluice within udon? The saving stuff? It does
Someone made it in the beta already
rigid ore
There's saving but it's code based like old games
wet sluice
^^^
rigid ore
You type a code and you reload to that save point like checkpoints
devout berry
What is bad about password saves?
wet sluice
It's not the kind of persistence necessary for an MMORPG
rigid ore
Nothing's wrong with it but it could be better
indigo fern
Oh yea, they can save it to a string, so you can give out cheat codes pretty much
wet sluice
Yea...
indigo fern
Yo gimme your save data
devout berry
There is a nice quirk to them - find out how the system makes them and you can cheat easily!
rigid ore
But i think the only better way is to have dedicated public servers and peer to peer friends servers where you can download a big world on workshop and play that level with your friends so you don't wait 10 minutes for your friends to load in and have to dip half way through
desert stratus
saving all the data in strings 0u0
devout berry
Make a save generator and make any save at any point in gane.
pseudo basalt
If you want that much complexity you're better off making your own game
umbral reef
@rigid ore Worlds are changing so they can stay up longer
rigid ore
@umbral reef yes but that doesn't help
Desync will still be an issue, world size still an issue, and no saving
umbral reef
Well you wont get the other stuff you said
Just having p2p and saving ect wont solve the problem
rigid ore
Ik but i still think predownloaded worlds would be great
north axle
@rigid ore I absolutely agree on that. Except Ronald McDonald was usually the priest. I’m talking about Lucifer, creator of the wedding/church worlds. The randomness and outlandishness inspired me to create a lot of things too, but I’m good with having as little of that as it can get nowadays, as long as I’m using VRC to actually communicate with people instead of being focused on the exploration of creativity. Right now, I’m more hooked on the connection with someone rather than something.
devout berry
VRChat is "sandboxed", so it cannot touch your PC. Only way to save would be the devs assigning you some save slots and adding them to game.
umbral reef
It would be hella neat if we could download a world in the background
pseudo basalt
Pre downloaded? You mean cached?
umbral reef
and then skip the loading screen as its cached
rigid ore
@north axle i like to talk and still be doing stuff. Nothing like robbing a bank in payday as you talk about the best brand of tea
pseudo basalt
well it would be nice if you could just drop world files into your vrc data folder, where the default worlds and avatars live
rigid ore
@pseudo basalt cache deletes after awhile and you have to go there first so you're still wasting time
north axle
I’d love that as well, just saying that I’m not as used to the randomness because it’s so rare that waiting for it can be painful.
rigid ore
@north axle i do plan to make some games for vrc but my issue is... Idk how to use unity very well and blender feels like I'm putting my brain in a blender
I failed to make a token for a game.....
ruby burrow
@umbral reef You sort of can do that already.
rigid ore
It had inverse culling
ruby burrow
If you start loading a world, but then cancel it and go home, it will continue loading in the background.
north axle
I never had any gamedev experience until I published Courtroom which is still my most successful project to date.
ruby burrow
Obviously not an intentional feature. Just an odd trick that can be handy to know.
devout berry
@rigid ore Making content for VRChat is partial game development. That is why we have less restrictions than easy editor based world/avatar makers for other games.
pseudo basalt
You can cancel the loading and go to a loading map for the immersive loading screen experience, it has a mirror
umbral reef
@ruby burrow unless most people use it, it aint worth doing imo
rigid ore
I'm currently working on my first world and it should be out sometime once i figure out how to make tokens and skybox and changing skybox
umbral reef
Like i got a neato connection to the server so i load in wayy faster then most i know
Me having to download the map or me having to wait untill my friends all joined is the same
ruby burrow
It's not that practical in most cases no, since it forces you to leave the instance it's not like you can say, "Hey friends, lets all pre-load Lakuza World"
rough pulsar
Background pre-downloading of worlds would be great, and significantly reduce the interruption of moving as a group.
umbral reef
But honestly
But more feature creep things get added
They should just fix what they have rn
ruby burrow
But I do use it to help my own large file size world, being able to go there later on.
devout berry
Neos fans are taunting us on Steam reviews, that you need an PhD to make VRChat content. @rigid ore
rough pulsar
What, it's the other way around 😆
rigid ore
Also predownloading would make larger worlds more frequently travelled to since you won't have to wait
ruby burrow
That's a bit of a weird taunt to be honest.
pseudo basalt
Make a canny about letting us put worlds into the data folder with the world id as the file name to prevent them from downloading all the time :^)
rigid ore
@devout berry also i don't have a phd in rocket science But i have a phd in sims so take that
vocal shard
Calm down buddy
No need to flex on us
ruby burrow
"This game with a dramatically larger user base requires more intelligence than I'm willing to give."
I know it's not really the case since Neos is far from intuitive or noob friendly to use, but it kinda makes you look bad to say something like that. ._.
rough pulsar
Yeah. Not to mention the learning curve for VRChat is made significantly easier as a lot of it is just general Unity stuff.
rigid ore
Hey at least it isn't the guys who paid $20 for a unity project that's basically vrc but paid
And more broken
devout berry
I think they are just elitists.
indigo fern
Neos has a lot of neat things and features, but that being said there's a lot of things that just make you scratch your head
rigid ore
I never even heard of neos so i was kinda confused
My favorite feature in vrc was changing world music down but still having ambience
rough pulsar
Lavender shouldn't have made it a paid thing out of the box like that.
Should have gone for a quiet non-steam free release and got a userbase to get things working and running and then gone on steam.
devout berry
Btw, Neos is hardly targeted as educational VR for schools or VR meeting tool for companies. Not as Social VR app.
vocal shard
Most people just sit around and talk
Neos is just too complicated for the average user that only want talk
vocal shard
🪓
gilded helm
I heard my name
vocal shard
Juicy
pale timber
salmonella
faint skiff
@vocal shard Neos will make more sense once it's designed for the average user. It's still very much tech oriented at the moment, hence the drop into almost empty home and the very techy UI functionality.
vocal shard
No one will switch to Neos tho
There is no reason
devout berry
@vocal shard Maybe the FBT fanatics will switch - someone mentioned few weeks back, that Neos has more point tracking.
faint skiff
@vocal shard I'm guessing you've not tried it. It does massively more than VRC does and has considerably more potential. It's not just static chat rooms.
@devout berry 11 point body tracking, eye tracking and face/mouth tracking.
broken plover
last time I tried playing neos it ran at like 15fps or something
wet sluice
Isn't it really n-point body tracking? Since no matter any number above the regular is entirely a custom setup?
faint skiff
Yeah, it's still mostly pre-optimisations at this point and is a lot more GPU demanding than VRC is.
@wet sluice 11 as far as their avatars go AFAIK. The game supports the Steam max for adding them on to other objects, which is 64, lol.
Imagine buying 64 trackers, as if 3 isn't expensive enough.
broken plover
lol 7k bucks for 64 trackers (if 1 tracker costs 110 bucks)
wet sluice
Or, y'know $1600 for 4 azure kinects and 32 joints
vocal shard
I did try it and I hated every single moment of it
viscid seal
was he implying vrc is just static rooms? 👀
vocal shard
Yes
vocal shard
Dunno
Neos shills can't stop shitting on vrchat
We already do that by ourself,no need for outsiders
faint skiff
@viscid seal He? You know this is literally the first time I've mentioned Neos here, right? I assume you're confusing me with someone else.
wet sluice
I think rampa is the subject...
viscid seal
you've talked about neos on here before
faint skiff
Possibly mentioned it in passing, at most.
viscid seal
nope
we've had discussions before
where you are praising what neos does better than vrc
just check discord search
vocal shard
EvErYtHiNg
wet sluice
Community 
vocal shard
They got a community of furries wdym
wet sluice
/s
faint skiff
@vocal shard And you have a community of hate apparently, congrats.
vocal shard
Thanks, always trying my best
Go create a tv in Neos and make a breaking news about it now
faint skiff
@viscid seal Elaborate worlds like yours in VRC are just obscene abuse of systems pushed well past their designed limits. Udon is obviously an improvement on this, but we can't pretend the trigger system was ever designed for anything really that interesting.
wet sluice
Neos seems cool and all, but I'd rather just make a Unity project than use that in-game 3D spaghetti coder.
viscid seal
there's nothing special about my stuff
all my stuff is basic use of triggers and animators
excluding the climbing stuff made by cyan
anything I've done
faint skiff
Like storing info inside animators for example, which is clearly a hacky workaround.
viscid seal
anyone can do with enough time
not doing anything complex with animators
its just change to new animation
using ints/ triggers and bools
but going to your original point, vrc isn't static rooms if thats what you implied
neos won't be any different once it becomes more open
the ratio of interactive to simple hangouts will still remain
faint skiff
I don't agree, it goes against the purpose of the design, not to mention the scripting system is already infinitely more elaborate.
viscid seal
because not everyone has the time to dedicate to making something interactive which is fine
faint skiff
Sure, but the capability is there without having to abuse hacks to the extreme to do it.
(though Udon will allow people to do more without hacks if/when that comes out)
viscid seal
apart from climbing worlds, none of my worlds rely on hacks or workarounds
many game worlds dont rely on them either
faint skiff
You make extensive use of animators for things that animators aren't designed for, no?
viscid seal
they're not designed for that?
talk to npc -> trigger animation 2 -> which enables a new interaction
there is nothing hacky about that XD
you have heard of animation events too no?
thats a unity feature
a boss battle I made is literally: enter trigger detecting weapon on weak point -> change animations on an animator
didn't realise animators were not supposed to do this either 👀
vocal shard
Stop hacking
viscid seal
😭
vocal shard
I still love your Cyberpunk world btw
Is there a button somewhere to skip a song?
faint skiff
Don't be sarcastic, I've been in the worlds/avatars channels long enough to see lots of discussion about abusing the animators to do things they're not designed for. You're just listing examples of things they are normally used for.
viscid seal
i'm listing what I do
for my worlds
not the crazy shit people do with avatars, i'm not a dedicated avatar creator
we were talking worlds here since you said vrc is static rooms
if you want to talk about actual workarounds for worlds
thats the ui button stuff
like climbing
anyone can make branching convos, boss battles, quests
using just animators and vrchat triggers
I'm not an advanced creator or anything. I came into this with zero knowledge on unity or game engines in general
I just spent a lot of free time making stuff, most of the times the wrong way xD
so if I can do something, anyone here can too
and way better than i can
faint skiff
The thing is that you're one of the few people that seems to have managed to make anything like that, which in itself seems odd. Trying to do lots of basic things in VRC is normally just met with "no, can't really do that" and there being no ways of really doing anything using just triggers and animators.
viscid seal
also @vocal shard no way to skip a song
its more so the time it takes
it took me a full year to make luxerion world
working on it everyday after work
and most of my weekends
not everyone has the time or luxury to spend that time or want to
so its natural to not have a flood of large game worlds
even with udon, most people will make small experiences
that don't take most of a year to make
wet sluice
You could write an operating system in Perl, but that doesn't mean you should. Sorry, that was for a point a while back. I'm passing out and forgot to hit send
Wow I'm really tired. I didn't see an obvious typo. Good night.
cold talon
well, about advanced world stuff, how can one make an agent follow a player? 🤔
just curios since i never got it to really work.
viscid seal
goodnight Aria ^_^
faint skiff
Triggers seem to have very little capability and animators are highly restricting in terms of everything basically having to be "pre-planned". I guess that's why Udon is necessary, but Udon not being cross compatible with SDK2 is a kick in the face.
viscid seal
@cold talon navmesh in standard assets + player tracker prefab in the vrcprefabs database
if you're doing it without udon
faint skiff
@cold talon Move the target for the follower agent to the player. You need a navmesh though.
viscid seal
yeah I will agree that the lack of cross compat between sdk and udon
is a kick in the balls, especially for people like me
it means I have to learn basic programming/coding now
but people are working on converting triggers to udon
and making standard sdk equivalent stuff in udon
cold talon
yeah was using navmesh, but it wouldn't want to path find, it would just go in the direction of the set poin and often get stuck not avoiding the navmesh edges
viscid seal
I would ask in #world-development or #event-system-sdk2
so it doesn't get buried here
It's something I want to learn myself eventually as I've never done that yet
cold talon
doesent matter anyway since it was an old project, just wanted your opinion on it
viscid seal
people like cyanlaser or phasedragon would be able to guide you through it 🙂
if you ever do revive that project
cold talon
probably when udo matures a little more, maybe
frosty veldt
A lot of people don't care about interactive worlds either. Not saying they aren't cool but I just want a place to talk with friends.
viscid seal
yeah this is true too
the stats don't lie
which is another big reason interactive worlds aren't flooding vrc
if you're making a big game world, you're only catering to a really small %
faint skiff
I'm not talking reimplementations of games at this point, but more subtle things for the most part. It feels like pulling teeth with triggers and most interactivity that happens is faked in some way or another (mostly due to animators having to do the leg work).
frosty veldt
Also I don't understand the problem with using hacky workarounds for functionality. If we all followed what VRChat wanted then our hand gestures would just bend fingers and nothing else.
faint skiff
@frosty veldt It's not that people are using hacky workarounds, it's that they have no choice but to use hacky workarounds.
viscid seal
enverex's point on this was that other apps allow for it without being a workaround
frosty veldt
Ah alright that makes more sense yeah
With neos don't you have to build everything in VR?
faint skiff
Exactly. Having to use hacky methods also means that there's much more chance of things breaking in future with changes or fixes, and of course it being harder to learn in the first place.
@frosty veldt There's a Unity SDK although it's experimental. But most stuff is done in-game, yeah. The whole design process is a very different experience in general.
My main annoyance comes from so many quality of life changes that VRChat hasn't made which it should have years ago (or even just issues with the basic interface).
frosty veldt
Well interface changes have had the excuse of "waiting on 2018 to do overhaul"
faint skiff
After playing Neos for a bit then coming back to VRC, you suddenly notice all the issues and lack of QoL stuff a lot more.
frosty veldt
So we'll see if they come up with a new excuse lol
Does Neos have final IK? Or I guess something similar at least
faint skiff
VRIK and some other stuff, I believe.
You've got full control over absolutely every aspect of it too, which is nice.
There's also things I'm not sure VRC will ever be able to fix, like having to download worlds and avatars in their entirety, as giant monolithic packages, rather than in parts. World hopping is so slow in comparison and any single change to a world means downloading the entire world again.
Getting used to not having loading screens makes the (literally) standing around waiting for worlds to load in VRC painful.
frosty veldt
Yeah I was never a fan of world hopping due to load times but I usually just watch YouTube in steam VR lol
My internet has degraded so I need to retry loading into worlds like 3-5 times sometimes
faint skiff
Switching back and forth to the desktop when playing VRC almost always triggers the 11fps bug after not too long for me, so I can't really do that.
frosty veldt
I dunno though with Neos it's just on a watch list for me. I really only play VRC for avatar creation and then sharing the creation with my friends and the people around me and there's just not that many people on Neos
faint skiff
Being able to alter/fix someone's avatar in world is also quite cool too, can just add/modify dynamic bones or swap textures and such in world, or do it for a friend while they're there with you, then save it in your inventory for later.
It's still not ready for prime time right now as they're adding/replacing a bunch of stuff still, but it's definitely looking like the future as far as I'm concerned.
frosty veldt
Maybe if I have the time I'll see how a spider avatar works in Neos but I've just been really short on time recently
But yeah I haven't written Neos off it's just a "wait and see" for me rn
Especially if vrc avatars are still practically being ignored by the time Neos is getting it's shit together
faint skiff
Being able to interact with other people's avatars (touch them, grabbable bits, etc) is a big one for people. Petting people actually getting a visual response.
frosty veldt
Ah I've never been a fan of that kind of stuff. Grabbable seems interesting but I like my personal space
faint skiff
Working tech too, so visors that actually work, have buttons, that you can just physically take off, etc (none of it faked with animations or shape keys, etc).
You can turn it off or set it to only work on yourself, etc.
desert radish
It would be pretty cool if reddit rpan would work with videoplayers
faint skiff
For example I can grab my own tail and swish it around, but I've set it so that only I can grab it.
frosty veldt
Yeah Im genuinely curious if vrc's "avatars 2.0" will be anything of note or just some gimmick like seats on avatars
faint skiff
AFAIK that was just a name they were giving to the current state of avatars wasn't it? (if I read the original press release properly)
frosty veldt
IIRC it's an ambiguous name for "avatars getting looked at"
Like how Udon is a big thing for worlds, avatars 2.0 should be a big thing for avatars
But we've only gotten the name, no actual info
faint skiff
I am more than sceptical given previous track record, lol.
frosty veldt
I just hope they don't break more stuff
If the spider ik stuff breaks and I can't find another workaround I'll probably just stop playing for a while tbh
cold talon
imagine udon for avatars 
compact river
cold talon
forgetting about that avatar and changing username
faint skiff
"I should switch to a more professional username and switch to my real name, Francis Paul" hard disk dies
ruby needle
Displayname and Username are 2 things 
And who is Francis Paul 
frosty veldt
They did say they wanted to do Udon on avatars albeit limited
But I think they should fix issues first like the ones from NetIK before adding stuff on top
faint skiff
They need to get their asses in gear and fix the bajillion current issues :/ and how is it 2020 with the menu UI still not working properly.
cold talon
that sounds pretty painful
frosty veldt
I've fallen out of caring about updates for vrc at this point it's just exhausting. I just check to make sure the old stuff still works via workarounds and to check if the non workaround works yet
faint skiff
Yeah, I lost interest when I updated my world to 2018 back at the start of Dec after the "UPDATE EVERYTHING NOW!!!" message, only for it to now be 2 and a half months later and the world is dead in the water because it's on the beta branch.
With no ETA in sight
frosty veldt
I don't trust the devs when they say "update your stuff"
My opinion on it was: wait for it to release and fix what's broken, instead of preemptive fixes
faint skiff
Yeah, that would have been the better idea.
frosty veldt
A couple of my avatars are still 5.6 iirc since they still work lol
viscid seal
2018 is waiting on unity to fix issues
so devs are waiting on that too
and menu ui I believe is low priority because it will be overhauled with a new one in future
i'm only taking my worlds over to 2018 when its actually out
and if I do, I always keep a backup on current version
faint skiff
I have a backup of the pre-2018, but it's all the changes, which were made on 2018 because doing it on 2 branches would be very hard, especially when it includes terraforming.
viscid seal
when you say dead in water, are you not able to work on it?
or is it more that it can't go public yet?
faint skiff
In that no-one can see it because no-one's using the beta, but also that there are a load of issues with it on 2018.
viscid seal
ah i see 😦
devout berry
@faint skiff Some people on the web are trying to compare Sansar and VRChat, when clearly on the Sansar page it is written, that it is just made for events, ergo not a normal social metaverse. When you look at it, only real concurrence I see for VRChat is Neos, if it becomes better as you said. For now, VRChat is no. 1!
frosty veldt
Didn't sansar just get shut down?
devout berry
Still looks online. At least the homepage. Didn't you mean Altspace?
Altspace was shut down for a while, before MS revived it.
frosty veldt
Ah no I was mistaken. Linden labs fired 20 sansar devs but it's still running
devout berry
But not sure how some people compare it with VRChat - they say, that it is meant for concerts, etc.
frosty veldt
If a game is VR and has social aspects it's compared. People compare rec room sometimes lol
devout berry
As I said above, only concurrence I see, that could be properly compared is Neos, if they make it more casual user friendly.
Some people even tried to compare VRChat with Second Life.
frosty veldt
I don't usually compare as I've never played any other social game tbh. Only reason I play VRC is for avatar creation so most of the other VR social games seem boring at best. Neos is really the only one I'm keeping an eye out for but at the same time I really don't care.
devout berry
Pretty interested, how much Neos had to cut down on their Quest version.
frosty veldt
They have a quest version?
devout berry
Yep. On the main page, they have it in the done part of the features to come.
And they even have in game cryptos already.
cold talon
We had crypto mining in vrchat for a short while too 👀
devout berry
And the fun thing is, that Solirax, who make Neos are mainly Czech people.
snow wadi
We are talking about Neos in a vrchat channel, might it be best to take this to #general-media o.o/
devout berry
Yep.
cold talon
Ah sorry, let's talk about Janus than
devout berry
?!
😡
🤦♂️
faint skiff
Yeah, hifi, sansar, etc don't feel like the same sort of thing at all. Lavender seems like it may be similar to vrchat but I've not tried it due to the fact it's paid.
@snow wadi random is just for memes and other childish garbage, didn't you get the memo?
devout berry
@faint skiff Did some digging - Solirax, even though they have main office in UK is a Czech company.
faint skiff
@devout berry @frosty veldt the quest version is actually the full version, you just don't want to go into any bit worlds with it, lol.
Yes, im aware, the two main guys are Czech.
devout berry
NANI?! They haven't cut it down?! (Now who is inferior here...)
faint skiff
Nope. The idea is that the asset management system will send lower resolution textures if needed, but that's mostly it. I think other optional stuff is planned but no idea what that is yet.
devout berry
Nice! Same level of experience everywhere! Why they don't do this with VRChat? Avatar poly count?
viscid seal
devs mentioned something for quest in future where they had a way to show pc avatars to quest
faint skiff
Not quite sure how they intend to do that on vrchat though due to how everything is packaged.
devout berry
That is good, because it is all the time: "I am on quest. How do I make everyone visible?" thing.
cold talon
Well, it was more of a brainstorm, ranging from cutouts with images, to some sort of retopo to just a plane
viscid seal
they mentioned it in the last dev stream they did
but never elaborated on it past that
2018 and udon is their priority for now
faint skiff
Lack of elaboration plus the technical feasibility of it make me seceptial that it'll be anything more than a gimmick, if it ever materialises.
viscid seal
they dont need to elaborate on it yet
cold talon
Easiest one to do is probably by just checking if the avatar is already quest compatible and just remove any components that don't fit the requirements like audio/particles
vocal shard
morning to u americans. afternoon to u brits
viscid seal
^_^/
cold talon
no morning or afternoon for me than
broken plover
nothing for me either :/
viscid seal
XD
vocal shard
umm hi to u extras?
broken plover
:(
vocal shard
good evening?
mortal walrus
How does the world count work? I’ve noticed it’s changed recently. My world is showing as having 29 players but when you click on it it shows 22 public and 104 privates.
broken plover
afternoon for europeans
viscid seal
world count values are a little buggy
its been reported to devs
so its on their list of things
mortal walrus
So which one is the accurate one?
umbral reef
@broken plover Shhh we dont count
viscid seal
no idea which one is the real one Nyan
mortal walrus
Np, thanks 🙂
cold talon
Ouch, extras
umbral reef
I am from the netherlands
cold talon
Oh heck, so your homeland is getting an update 
vocal shard
Swamp german
faint skiff
@cold talon The main issue is that the packages are precompiled for specific platforms, so they'd need to decompile them, process the avatar, do whatever, then repackage it up for Quest. Given that they don't even bother with the slightest amount of checking at the moment even for security and protection purposes, doing all that instead seems unlikely.
frosty veldt
Yeah optimizing the avatar was never the problem it was PC vs Android
faint skiff
Otherwise avatars that are "good enough" could have just been shown on Quest anyway.
frosty veldt
We already have graceful degredation for avatar performance ranking restrictions so that concept is already done
faint skiff
Only sort of. That only works for dynamic bones and... one other thing I think?
So yes, but no.
cold talon
Yeah they were talking about doing all of that server side or something, but I doubt that it will happen
frosty veldt
Should work for everything that's not polygons, bones, skinned meshes, and meshes.
faint skiff
They don't even do the most basic of security checks on uploads, I don't believe they'd do actual post-processing on avatars.
frosty veldt
It's different than the dynamic bone limiter if that's what you're referring to
faint skiff
Polys, mats, meshes, bones and skinned meshes are like 99% of an avatar.
frosty veldt
Well yeah but it will disable things like particles, rigid bodies, trail renderers, lights, physics colliders, cloth, sounds, and animators
It's in the docs
devout berry
@faint skiff Then how Neos does it to allow completely custom avatars? Or do they have prefab based editors only?
faint skiff
@devout berry Neos breaks everything down to its base components. It's how you can world hop without loading screens and how everything benefits from being deduplicated. Every single thing is an "asset" rather than being big packages that have to be downloaded.
So if you go from one world to another that uses any of the same meshes, materials, etc then it won't have to download them, they'll just appear instantly, etc.
(same with avatars and such)
twin fractal
that's actually really interesting
faint skiff
So when you go to a world, it performs a quick handshake (while you're in the world you're in now) and then drops you into the new world, then just loads everything around you.
It's the same way Second Life works.
It's great for those of us with rubbish connections and is a lot more seamless for everyone. It's one of my biggest disappointments with VRChat.
devout berry
Oh, so no downloading, but streaming the assets online?
faint skiff
They are downloaded, but each "part" individually, e.g. each texture on an avatar, the mesh, etc. Not one giant "avatar" package.
It also means you can transition between completely different worlds without even realising you've changed worlds, which is cool.
devout berry
Oh! That is the background downloading some of us want to be introduced if I am right.
indigo fern
No 
vocal shard
Good vrchat talk
faint skiff
I think the background downloading people mentioned earlier was just being able to "preload" worlds before going to them, so not really the same thing (but would still be useful).
covert blade
I mean, that sounds nice, but each world probably has entirely different textures and materials compared to the other
faint skiff
They do, but that doesn't make it any less useful.
covert blade
So how exactly would people benefit from that if they have to download the whole world anyways?
indigo fern
He's saying there's no redownloading previously downloaded parts, only what was updated on it
faint skiff
Because you're in the world while it downloads, with the things closest to you first, without you having to wait to enter the world. It also means that if you make any changes to the world, no-one has to redownload ANYTHING.
covert blade
Oh
faint skiff
For example, if Owlboy changes the position of a mug and reuploads the Pug, next time anyone goes there, you have to download the entire 100MB again. Using an asset system, you'd not have to download anything, you already have all those textures and meshes.
indigo fern
So if you update a world, you don't have to redownload the entire thing, just what was added or changed, like if the pug moved a stool or something lmao
covert blade
Oh I see
faint skiff
Exactly
indigo fern
I was just gonna use the pug as an example lmao
covert blade
What engine does Neos run on?
faint skiff
The problem gets exponentially worse the larger a world is.
@covert blade It uses Unity for rendering (for now) but the engine's mostly custom at this point.
covert blade
Oh
faint skiff
I feel bad updating my world because it's 250MB and people have to redownload the entire world every time I update it 😦
indigo fern
😱
covert blade
Hmm yeah
faint skiff
But yeah, it means that if anyone is sharing textures or anything over different avatars, they don't have to be redownloaded too. So some sort of LPD meeting would have a load of duplicate textures, so only one copy would exist and that's it, you've already got the only copy you need.
Given that this is the system Second Life used, it's not a new idea so I wonder why VRC didn't use it. Or maybe they're all on gigabit connections and it didn't occur to them...
The fact it allows for almost seamless world transitions is a big benefit though. No loading screens!
indigo fern
Yea, going back and forth between worlds pretty much instantly is blessed
frosty veldt
Loading screens give me time to shit talk people while I'm alone
indigo fern
Lmao
faint skiff
Shit talk who? You're in a loading screen? Also I can't hear other people because of the damn music that you can't disable!
indigo fern
He's gotta think about it before hand
rough pulsar
The horrid loading screen elevator muzak is connected to the UI sound volume
frosty veldt
Just venting out loud is more stress relieving than an inner monologue at least
indigo fern
Think louder 🔉
faint skiff
@rough pulsar Hmm, the tradeoff of not being sure you actually pressed a button on the UI vs torturous loading music. It's a hard choice.
frosty veldt
They should have that thing Google does where you can play a minigame while it's down
rough pulsar
I'm somewhat sensitive to horrid sounds so killing the muzak is a clear win for me.
indigo fern
Do pressing the buttons vibrate the controller? I don't remember
covert blade
Not for me
faint skiff
That's another nice feature, I don't get kicked out the game if my connection dies in Neos, hell, you can even play offline. But yeah, when it comes back up, I can just resume. VRChat on the other hand doesn't even tell you when you're in a world with people who are on a different version, so you run around an empty room wondering what the hell is going on and where these "In the same world" people actually are.
rough pulsar
If they don't, they should do. Although the UI as a whole = 🤢
devout berry
If they are going for another UI update, they SHOULD have one thing on top of the list: FIX the damned loading screens and MEH music theme!!!
rough pulsar
The worst thing about the loading screen music is it used to be really nice
indigo fern
Lmao, UI/UX was gonna be after udon if I'm remembering right
devout berry
@rough pulsar There was no music except for login screen, but that one was beautiful.
rough pulsar
https://andreabaroni.bandcamp.com/album/lullabies-of-the-fallen
Partially Offline from that album
rough pulsar
I swear it was also on the loading screen.
faint skiff
Wait so, why did they change it?
devout berry
Loadings were ambient sounds only when you get in game.
rough pulsar
Part of the small UI overhaul.
There was some demand for improvements to the loading screens, like the ability to display messages and advertise events and such.
devout berry
Just silent hum, few beeps here and there and the space background with togglable warp tunell - the perfect loading screen. SCRAPED!
(this should be pinned)
indigo fern
They really wanted that loading message to join the discord with default avatars dabbing
And to move around buttons making people hit respawn instead of switch seated and standing
devout berry
Btw, I hate canny - a lot of other feedback systems don't need an account to send feedback, but canny needs complete registration.
indigo fern
I just signed in with Google, keeps my silly pfp too
rough pulsar
Pretty sure canny.io is the service they use for their feedback system, it's just better tied into the site now.
devout berry
Yep. It is canny.
indigo fern
Pretty sure he's referring to just looking at what gets finished, its seems like the canny is for problems they're already aware of it or hear from the discord when they update and everyone complains
faint skiff
Feels somewhat ironic that the phonetic word "Canny" is Scottish for "Can't"
vocal shard
Seems about right
devout berry
And the get f*cking account to give feedback is annoying. + I read how canny charges the companies using it - for everyone of us registered there, the devs have to pay user license. @rough pulsar
indigo fern
Yea, a lot of things are marked as planned and have stayed that way for uh
vocal shard
2+ years
devout berry
From that I can deduct, that a pretty nice packet of bucks goes to canny for running the feedback system.
indigo fern
You have to pay for canny use?
devout berry
The company pays.
vocal shard
Literally wasted money
faint skiff
I love how there's one from VRPill saying this needs to be looked into and it's like 3 years old now.
devout berry
But they bill them by customers registered - every of us on canny means another customer license to be payed by the devs. @indigo fern
indigo fern
I dunno, having an account allows for them to ban trolls slightly easier I guess, not sure how often they moderate it, but they do delete troll comments here and there
devout berry
@faint skiff I think the system now looks like Caesar's "democracy" in Rome - people feel, like if the big Caesar is listening, but he has the absolute power - canny is the "democracy", Caesar are the devs. You know how it ended, when people on canny voted for return of original loading screens and the Partially offline login screen music? Not planed, probably will never happen.
And it was one of top feature request posts - nearly 200 upvotes.
rigid crescent
Uhh
The canny isnt a "fake democracy"
It's literally suggestions and bug reports. Nothing more.
pale timber
everytime i see rampa speak of something it's stated as the complete opposite. i'm really confused
rigid crescent
It's not a vote, don't make the mistake of assuming that
Yeah, he's good at being wrong
indigo fern
The upvotes is only for them to see it, it's not a guaranteed we'll work on it, it's pretty misleading
pale timber
no like no exaggeration EVERYTIME i see him in chat
rigid crescent
Yeah, I know lol
pale timber
he's just wrong, blindly stating his opinions
rigid crescent
It's not even that, he says things that are false as if they were facts
indigo fern
That's why I said canny is mostly for problems they're already aware of half the time or here when people complain right after an update
indigo fern
There are plenty of those debug gods that go in and write a full page report on canny tho, those are the only ones that should be there
rigid crescent
If the shoe fits
faint skiff
More like an idiot lighthouse by this point...
devout berry
I hate how the new reaction and menu buttons are on top of the message instead next to it where the old ones were!
pale timber
!
indigo fern
Yea kinda weird, discord just does stuff
charred ember
vocal shard
cold pawn
hi what is the average voice and animation delay on vrchat?
covert blade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr37oMGxrQ0 Watch this video
It's being showcased here
covert blade
cold pawn
like what if i were to clap my hands in VR would it transmit the clap at the same time as the hands
the sound of it
covert blade
I think it would but it would look awful with network IK
cold pawn
what u mean
@vocal shard i am trying to master high fives n fist bumps
but timing is always off with th esounds
movement is like a 2000ms delay
twin fractal
movement has very little delay
covert blade
Without stopping the time, it looks more like half a second delay
vocal shard
2000 milliseconds is 2 seconds. So yeah I doubt that 
broken plover
I thought 100 milliseconds is 1 second 🤔
pseudo basalt
I thought so too but apparently it's not the case
vocal shard
According to Google..
A millisecond (from milli- and second; symbol: ms) is a thousandth (0.001 or 10−3 or 1/1000) of a second
pseudo basalt
Can always ask google to convert if you're unsure
proven carbon
I love knowing milli is a 1/1000
broken cobalt
anyone knows fix speed of downloading?
frosty veldt
Is there anyway to fix failing half the tests? I started getting downloading issues a couple months back for vrc
sullen olive
I used to download things just fine in VRC a few months ago too but for whatever reason now I download maps/avs at 0.8mb/s at the fastest >.>;
frosty veldt
Mine is quite fast but will give up at times and I would need to restart the loading to get it going. Worst case has been rejoining a world around 8 times.
Basically an effective ban from invite/invite+
broken cobalt
downloads 5 mb per sec so my downloading still slow
wet sluice
To confirm, what results do you get for cloudfront? Is it bad there or just vrc?
Yes, 5 mb/s is very slow
Downlink [256KB - 10MB / 2 threads]
That is the important value
sullen olive
I get 16mb/s on that
And yet I take 3 minutes to download a 150mb map in vrchat :vv
rough pulsar
I get 76.73Mb/s, which is consistent with the max speed I get for just about anything.
odd blaze
Thats kinda slow, get 283.49 mb/s , vrchat does limit the speed alot though
frosty veldt
while 16mb/s is slow, 283 is ridiculous
dawn quiver
can some one help me with the controls for vr chat I forgot them because I haven't played in months