Save the big questions for here, but anything that is that simple is better off being googled for time's sake.
#vrchat-general-2
small wing
sour dagger
i did it
small wing
Plus google make's it so much easier with pic's
sour dagger
it will do for know
small wing
🤔
sour dagger
what
sour dagger
mk
small wing
If you plan on talking about anything not related to VRC keep it in #general-media
Also check the #rules
sour dagger
mk but what is vrchat like
tribal orbit
Download it and find out for yourself
sour dagger
i cant this is my school computer
small wing
This guy has to be trolling us 🤣
rigid sun
Eh, it could be genuine
sour dagger
im not i swear
rigid sun
¯_(ツ)_/¯
small wing
Big thonk.
sour dagger
my name is victory im 14 and im using my school compuer to get on discord
rigid sun
i mean i'm 28 and i'm using my work laptop
tribal orbit
Ask your friend about it if he helped you make an account and invited you to the server because he has some sort of affiliation when vrchat
rigid sun
(only cause our IT guy had it installed)
small wing
I mean if you are genuine then you could always look on youtube and watch some more casual streams or vids.
rigid crescent
Nah miholi VRchat is on the front page of discord as a partnered server or something so we get flooded with riffraff and edgelords
tribal orbit
Oh I didn’t even think about that
sour dagger
and thats the truth
small wing
Anyone got any good sources for learning animator controllers? The standard unity tutorial's never seem to give enough of a perspective on how it play's out with the VRC animation trigger components. Trying to build a working piano with triggers but source a single audio source for sound design on the fly.
Was considering building a working additive synth inside VRC.
sour dagger
gooooooood luck bud
small wing
As far as I know the VRC animation trigger on interact causes an animation state to activate. But I could be wrong.
If anyone know's how to set something like that up lemme know. Otherwise I might just keep looking and eventually iron this thing out.
tribal orbit
I would probably check #animation
small wing
Lemme do a quick discord search then, good idea.
spiral patrol
How is everyone?
sour dagger
great
rigid sun
Eh, tired. working on overclocking my PC
so far
2.1ghz on gpu (averages between 2.055 and 2.1 depending on scene), and a solid 5ghz on my cpu. 😄
rigid crescent
I think they're actually paying me to work now that you mention it...
small wing
I'm at home.
rigid sun
honestly
small wing
Thinking about tomatoes
rigid sun
i wish i was doing something more engaging
like... it support is "fun" but not really creative
sour dagger
aight im getting of discord
eager reef
m'kay
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Guy has been writing it under the vids since it came out so
Soon is a maybe but they atleast are looking at it i guess
rigid crescent
:3 suddenly very active
umbral reef
Id almost say bitching worked but at the same time
rigid sun
well
if it's a support person like i am, he's just saying they're working on it. Doesn't mean it'll be fixed. Means they're working on trying to resolve the issues they're having
Protip from a support person to all of you:
"We're working on it"
^ This is a true statement. They probably are. But that does not guarantee anything will get fixed. Sometimes some problems can be fixed with a simple update. >.> Sometimes it requires to completely redo the code which is just... not... feasible in 90% of cases.
worthy oracle
pliant flame
Soon™
midnight fossil
when im trying to upload an avatar it keeps getting stuck on "uploading image-processing upload" and it just sits there. Not frozen, just never progresses. I have to close unity and try to pull it back up. Any ideas? thanks ahead of time.
pure hemlock
Hope the quest users at least enjoy the game, since it seems most of the development recently has been for them.
desert stratus
i think they will uwu
desert stratus
theyll probably have a big community of their own content creators
paper grotto
Only for the setup I heard
umbral reef
Gotta get that facebook data one way
pure hemlock
I am tempted to get one just because it seems really cool but I'd probably never use it cuz of my vive
paper grotto
It has to link the device to your account
umbral reef
Oww joker meant for this server.
paper grotto
I have a rift but I wanted portability too
umbral reef
Or does the quest legit need that? Lmao
paper grotto
To link your store purchases, yes
pure hemlock
I mean if I bougbht the quest I could play VRChat in the kitchen, and the bathroom... VRchat in the bath sounds nice..... xD
paper grotto
I'm just glad it has positional tracking and hand tracking
halcyon kestrel
Hello ppl
vale solstice
hey guys
pure hemlock
Oh lord I just realized that I may have to listen to people pissing and shitting in VRChat now
pure hemlock
VRChat doesn't have many sane people so...
covert linden
u right
pure hemlock
I've already heard it once or twice from people with wireless and a bathroom in range of it
halcyon kestrel
how do i fullscreen the game
olive marten
idek
covert linden
Hold shift when entering the game via steam and uncheck windowed
tribal orbit
Left shift when starting the game
Or shift enter should work in game
Just press shift enter to exit out of full screen though
halcyon kestrel
thx @covert linden
median basalt
I haven't been able to enjoy it quite as much since my trust rank got dropped by a hacker and the networked IK turned out to be a disaster
So I've been playing other games instead
Unfortunately Neos is a disaster so I'm waiting for something else to come along
Something that isn't terribly mismanaged and doesn't treat its community like crap
rigid sun
You know, when you say it like that, i feel like you deserve it and i'm not sure why
median basalt
I deserve dropping trust ranks because I criticize the game? 😐
Me being jaded is the effect and not the cause
rigid sun
Given that you're no different than every other player from every other game I play that constantly feels like the devs treat them so horribly
I beg to differ
median basalt
You're assuming a lot without even knowing what I'm referring to, but ok
umbral reef
Giving feedback, providing solutions constantly and helping with bug finding really means Rokk deserves to lose two full ranks without a reason and not getting any support at all from the team 👌
median basalt
☝
You always hear players complaining about devs in certain games, and in a lot of those cases the complaints are justified
umbral reef
If Rokk just complained id not have said anything but he does more then just that.
vocal shard
Difference is Rokk has been here longer than most people and pretty much dedicates all his time to helping people. So he's not quite the average player
umbral reef
Also helped an insane amount of users by now within the community 🤷
rigid sun
I've spent 10 years on one game. I've helped countless people. Wrote countless posts to assist them, spent hours troubleshooting, etc. I'm banned from their forums. Why? Because I personally made a mistake, a couple of times honestly. It doesn't matter what all you do, what matters is what the devs can see you do.
So to that end, i don't have sympathy. It sucks that you're in your situation, but the amount of time you spend helping out does not carry weight in that situation.
To be blunt, my analysis does include the possibility of exactly what you guys are defending. Length of time, dedication, etc, can all be washed away by either a few bad actions or a massive amount of miscommunication. I think what actually proves my point is that I don't know you. And my first impression of you is that you are no different than anyone else.
median basalt
I've had some close scrapes in the past with the devs, I'm sure I would have been banned if I had not been super active and helpful
Because two other people who did the exact same thing instantly got the banhammer for it
rigid sun
And I'm sure they considered that. And i'm sure a lot of people are thankful for your assistance on things and for you speaking up.
median basalt
And your first impression is probably exactly why I'm not being taken seriously by the devs when I said "my trust rank dropped"
covert linden
Trust ranks in vrchat arent communicated to the servers...
median basalt
Anyway my behavior on the Discord is indeed not related to trust ranks
The fact that a hacker retaliated against me blocking him is related however
Yep
The trust ranks were a mistake, it's a social VR game.
Because they don't seem to wanna have any moderators ingame lol
civic lagoon
^
rigid sun
That's fair. And I feel for you. Overall, my opinion right now is that I can go into any discord, reddit, forum, etc, for any game that I play regularly... and your type of comment is almost always there, regardless of if it's someone who has been around 9 years, or someone who's been on 30 minutes
median basalt
Not to this extent I believe
rigid sun
I'm exhausted from it.
median basalt
I wouldn't be able to find people saying the same thing about something like Killing Floor 2
There's always a few people here and there, but in VRChat's case, their behavior and the game's direction is literally directly responsible for creating and popularizing an alternative, to an absurd degree.
There's a whole community of thousands of people that are almost entirely consisting of "people that are sick of how VRChat is going"
That says quite a bit
rigid sun
Doesn't say anything to me
median basalt
Trust ranks have slowly poisoned the game
civic lagoon
ever since that update its gone down hill.
median basalt
Also the fact that subcom is still up lmao
I would have yeeted those boys to the moon ages ago
But that's irrelevant to the current discussion
umbral reef
If a system without a reason triggers a bad behavior and the staff team is unwillingly/not caring to even care its bad. Thats the only conclusion anyone should get from the events that surpassed.
As someone who ran a community i know its hard to judge between a case of 'i got unfairly banned' and 'i got unfairly banned'. But even more well known people get straight up ignored unless they have specific connections or a large reach.
Its not how community support is supposed to work, it happens daily within the game so all complains about it are justified. I can list the ways to solve this but as the team ignored my last few extremely detailed and pretty much finished works for them i wont.
rigid sun
Mind that I am relatively new. I have enjoyed what I've experienced so far, but I have spoke to some creators who are frustrated, and they explained pretty well why they were in honestly a small amount of words.
I also ran a community, around 500 regulars with 4000 unique server joins
median basalt
@civic lagoon wot?
umbral reef
And as Rokk is a perfect case of how bullshit can happen. Properly logged his stuff and had fairly low range of factors that can effect it. Its the perfect 'Thats pure bullshit from the devs side' case.
vocal shard
Who’s number was that 👀
rigid sun
Of course, and I'm sure it is
civic lagoon
ever since the trust system the games been going down hill with update imo. @median basalt
median basalt
- Log off as veteran user rank
- block client user
- log back in a week later
- dropped two ranks and have a bunch of "blocks" against you from the modded client guy
🤔
Can't get more clear than that
umbral reef
So you instantly jumping the gun, saying he deserves it for sure made you look bad with the argument.
median basalt
The devs told me "we can't reveal what happened and we can't restore your rank for you since it's automated, goodbye"
rigid sun
I don't really care how I look
median basalt
@civic lagoon it's been going downhill before that, but the trust system was a major turning point for sure.
hexed pivot
Hello
civic lagoon
oh i agree
median basalt
It's nice to know that you never have to be mute then I guess
VRChat doesn't accommodate mutes, avatar developers had to do it themselves but are then faced with the trust system
umbral reef
You should when trying to argue your case on these things. Else everyone will just write you off without ever caring what you write. And i speak from experience within here lmao.
median basalt
Lmao
covert linden
Its always the people who have been here the longest who see corruption the best.
rigid sun
Sometimes the people who have been around the longest are often just as tired as the devs though. It's true that corruption can exist, however in many cases for many games it's often blown far well out of proportion.
VRChat may be different
covert linden
Youll learn one day this isnt one of those cases.
rigid sun
You're probably right
median basalt
Well in this case we have people that blew a large part of a millions dollar investment on a leisure-ish trip to japan
And verbally insult the users that give them solutions to their problems, such as index controller implementations(?)
I can't say too much about that since I wasn't there, I just followed the ordeal via what Rero said, and Twitter
umbral reef
Corruption not really. I am one of the few who can argue for that shit even but nah.
Its just the devs badly caring about some extremely important/events that are not fun to do but have a big effect.
Also meme worthy events happen constantly from the higher ups within this community and bad story after bad story gets proven to be right.
rigid sun
So, i'll be frank, my attitude is far beyond just what's happened here. Much like you, it stems from other reasons
covert linden
I use the word corruption extremely lightly in this case bur the situation definately isnt ideal
umbral reef
Id love to talk about some shit but that would just rally some people up again to request a ban on me here so thats what ya get 💤
median basalt
Oh yeah, like Svel lol
Actually I guess Svel's case was different but it's still remarkable
Hopefully we'll get to see you again in a matter of weeks, not months, Oclac
rigid sun
For instance, a group from my other gaming community decided to stalk me onto another discord simply to, well, gang-up on me because I disagreed with the actions the community took as far as pushing the developers to do exactly what they wanted.
umbral reef
if im clapped im onto something else and you have to follow me on twitter or in BM lmao
rigid sun
These people have been occasionally threatening me, once in front of a staff member but since it was in a public space they couldn't legally do anything about it, among other things
umbral reef
Got plenty of other brainless stuff to waste my time on
Also let me link you some shit rokk
median basalt
Also apparently error.mdl left VRC too lol
rigid sun
So, I have my own reasons to be a little upset about how, inversely, the community treats their devs. But you are right, i shouldn't have assumed that your actions and statements were not justified @median basalt
median basalt
I see.
I get your point too, you can't have people trying to strong-arm devs into anything
median basalt
That basically evolved from rumor to "almost definitely", I questioned a dev about it on reddit and he deleted all of his comments
Immediately
covert linden
Thats just like vrc to hide their mistakes / tracks
median basalt
Anyway, everything that I joined the game for is now gone.
umbral reef
Hmmmm discord doesnt have properly mention history i forgot
Gimme some longer time rokk
covert linden
I miss december times. When chaires were implimented. Game was running well. Now I cant go to publics without excpecting a panic attack.
rigid sun
Eh, i've met some nice people so far after turning on full trust for everyone
but i can see how you'd experience that
prisma plover
Don't forget scuffed IK that broke everything good about the game.
spiral prairie
Hello everyone!
rigid sun
The IK i can understand why they implemented it from a programmatic perspective but it does still seem like it needs more time in the kiln
median basalt
I joined the game for the social aspects, avatar and world development.
- The social aspects were thoroughly poisoned by the trust system, broken voice prioritization, and now networked IK. Completely gone. Public instances are depressing and full of toxicity.
- The avatar development scene is completely gone thanks to avatar cloning, and thanks to the fact that everything interesting on avatars is always immediately removed. The trust system also makes it extremely discouraging for newer players to try their hand at developing anything. This is an extremely overlooked thing.
- World development is still ok-ish so far, but triggers keep breaking and it takes ages for it to be fixed.
covert linden
Lets not forget how foe the cloudflare issuw rhey were silent until they resolved it and pretended it didnt happen
rigid sun
oh?
median basalt
Requiring captchas on almost every webpage you visit
ruby needle
*had the potential do get you blacklisted during the time of these issues
covert linden
I got dmed being told it was only a rumor and it turned out to be true.
rigid sun
oof
median basalt
Also, the game is still on a Unity version where the editor has an RCE exploit in it.
They said they were gonna update, but that was two months ago.
covert linden
Lets not forget they remained silent and told people warning people to stop because it was a 'false rumour"
median basalt
I can literally trigger the RCE from within a VRChat world, no less!
spiral prairie
I just joined this server and im new to VR. I wanted to see if maybe you guys could help me out with some questions?
median basalt
I can literally infect people who walk into a portal
@spiral prairie try #avatars-2-general if it's avatar related
rigid sun
well, lets just say one game i've played has added like 15+ complete reworked features, 20+ versions of content, and people are like "they don't do anything and everything takes forever"
median basalt
Also, there was an exploit that allowed you to corrupt specified files on people's systems
spiral prairie
its not specific. just general discussion
rigid sun
and those systems were just in the past year
covert linden
That was through web pannels right rokk?
dreamy summit
how big is the vrchat team?
covert linden
Theres been too many dangerous issuess through vrc that devs ignored and pretended didnt occur at all.
Ohh ok ye I remember that
dreamy summit
recroom is the opposite, people get banned for every minor rule break
rigid sun
And this is why i mostly do my racing sims, where even the staff are sad that I'm banned but it's upheld until i appeal
covert linden
Welcome to vrchat where theres always an exploit to discover
rigid sun
and i'm not appealing until i find if i can absolutely stop insulting people.
median basalt
Man, if there were a media outlet that would listen to us lol
Because blacklisted from Cloudflare is a major fuckup
rigid sun
Kotaku might
median basalt
Kotaku is shit but at least it's something
dreamy summit
lol
rigid sun
but i like some of the commentators
umbral reef
Welp perfect time to shower and hide from the quest flood 🏃
covert linden
If vrc could admit their flaws before things go out of hand thered be no iszue
chilly zinc
w00w
covert linden
It was sickening how the mods were forced to stay silent cuz it was a "rumor" and normal members had to take the place and protect users.. because it was not just a coincidence.
vocal shard
I love how the only time the chats are this active is when people are arguing or banding together to shit on vrchat
umbral reef
@covert linden Read the announcements
vocal shard
I’m so proud of this community
rigid sun
Honestly, it's because that's where the most information needs to pass
umbral reef
they confirm all thats wrong its odd
covert linden
Id like to but Its not loading
vocal shard
hello
median basalt
I'm not really social or good enough to actually reach out to an outlet though.
rigid sun
reading now
covert linden
FINALLY some fixes
median basalt
The new announcement is not a fix
covert linden
What
median basalt
They only said "we are looking into it", as they have been saying from day 1.
umbral reef
The update is more a 'this broke, we know of it. This broke, we know of it. This broke, we know of it'
Whats neat for the people in the dark about these things atleast.
covert linden
For fuck sakes of course
median basalt
Friendly reminder that they had a 1 hour closed beta and no open beta
Because they still don't care
vocal shard
IDK what to do at this point .
covert linden
I was really expecting an update :/ lets teleport back to december or better yet, may!
Ill never forget u blue hub...
rigid sun
Honestly, i'm going to have to be neutral on that. As a support agent myself, if the issue is being worked on but isn't completely finished, then saying it's being worked on is really all you can do imo
They did at least acknowledge the specific regressions
vocal shard
honestly, vrchat is it.
umbral reef
@covert chasm Well the mic swap stuff gonna be fixed in the current version of unity or you guys just gonna sit it out until the new version?
iron kestrel
So I got my laptop a few weeks ago and and vrchat lags alot...I put it on the lowest graphics I can but then realizing...my laptop was not made for gaming
crystal brook
P:
umbral reef
He is in chat 🤷
covert linden
Tupper just talked here its all good
rigid sun
Probably because they have a question for the dev
umbral reef
Normally he doesnt mind it then so eh-
median basalt
@covert chasm I concede that I didn't actually know anything about the closed beta, although there definitely wasn't an open beta for the networked IK, is what I'm getting at
covert chasm
It cannot be fixed in the current LTS build. We have to update to a newer 2017 LTS build. We'll get to that, as we mentioned in the Dev stream, but these things.. they take time
median basalt
I'm sure it might be hard to test networked stuff if you haven't switched old clients over and all yet but
covert chasm
The quest-beta build was using networked IK for almost the entirety of its existence.
covert linden
A newer.. 2017 lts!? What happened to 2018.
median basalt
That would have been nice to know
Stuff like local Final IK components breaking would have been discovered sooner probably
umbral reef
But thanks for telling, atleast know what to tell other users if i get the question again.
crystal brook
Still waiting for invite system to be fixed....
median basalt
So is it a priority or not?
covert linden
So no more 2018 lts or should we just hope for a "one day"?
median basalt
2018 LTS I mean
covert chasm
That.. isn't what I said at all? 🙃
covert linden
Because I was under the impression it was a big priority
prisma plover
I wonder. It is said in the recent blog post Tupper made that they are working on the networked IK to fix it. But... isnt it by design impossible to fix since it involves transmitting data to a server in the United States, so people that live far away for there will always get broken IK results, just because of the regular network latency that you can expect from such long distances ?
rigid sun
I'm guessing that both are a priority, but 2017 is something they can get done before 2018 would be ready even if they did go full hands on deck with it
vocal shard
they said already that 2017 lts would come first to fix bugs. And then 2018 later as that is more work
covert chasm
The 2018 LTS upgrade is important, but is complex. It will take more time to upgrade to that.
The 2017 LTS update is also important, but addresses smaller issues while being an easier upgrade.
magic osprey
The announcment didn't say anything about the current issue, where Quest Users coming into a room, cause everyone NOT using quest, to drop to 10 FPS, doesn;t matter if you block them, I've tried. Has happened every time.
rigid sun
This is why I dislike using platform engines
umbral reef
Thats a first time hearing that 🤔
median basalt
So what about the obvious security flaws? How come a newer LTS update was pushed to the side despite the fact that an RCE was found?
woeful spoke
I actually have not seen a single Oculus Quest user lol
covert chasm
@magic osprey If you can reliably reproduce, please post to the Canny with reproduction steps, including the world ID. That sounds like malformed trigger spam. We did extensive cross-platform testing and did not experience that.
upbeat dust
wasn't quest released today? I wouldn't expect anyone to own it already though
covert chasm
median basalt
Apparently they exist
rigid sun
I'm going to guess that the changes in 2018LTS are far greater than 2017LTS, and that upgrading all the systems involved would prevent other security patches from being released in a timely manner
median basalt
The 2018 LTS should be less work than the initial 2017 LTS upgrade (from 5.6) but still a lot of work
rigid sun
Depends
median basalt
That was kinda the point of getting on the LTS track
rigid sun
if all your systems are incompatible with the newer version, and only some are with the older version, that would make a big difference on support
covert chasm
The malicious behavior exists in editor, and not in the client. There exists a mitigation that basically disables the browser hook to Unity editor. We detail it in that blog post, and in our documentation when informing users how to install the editor.
vocal shard
I'm wondering the same that GB mentioned earlier
covert chasm
Installing the mitigation is part of the steps and is called out repeatedly.
median basalt
Also speaking of misinformation, Cloudflare is a CDN and CDN's can do more than just host files :^)
vocal shard
Time to immigrant myself to US
umbral reef
Also- Will we ever get any news on the insane reports of users getting constantly stuck in login loops?
A official guidance/tip/whateveryouwanttocallit on how to help those users would be neat
rigid sun
Okay we're going into a lot of topics at once
covert linden
Though the average user who startz making models lets admit likely wotn know about the tool
umbral reef
As i cant even count the daily reports we get of the problem within #user-support-old about it.
covert chasm
We're aware of it, but a lot of those issues are actually many separate issues, sometimes related to the user's network. We need more logs, basically.
rigid sun
This is like when I get put on a support Zoom meeting and suddenly 3 people are asking me completely different cases than what I was working on for the one person i invited who invited 2 others
rigid sun
xD
rigid sun
I did 6 of them on my first training week
covert linden
Tupper isnt a dev.
median basalt
Also could you guys consider updating the docs on trust ranks? The docs don't say that you can also drop trust ranks, only that nuisance exists.
covert chasm
If you're still experiencing issues with invites, please contact support@vrchat.com
median basalt
Apparently you can drop trust ranks at any time for nebulous reasons (I still suspect malicious user involvement) but that ain't mentioned
rigid sun
^ this is truth, tickets are best way to inform them what to work on
they get stats on that
viral pumice
Ayyy, hi there Tupper 👋
upbeat dust
invites... also votekicking, which i experienced a couple of days ago
covert chasm
@median basalt As I recall its pretty heavily implied that you can drop trust ranks
umbral reef
Well i know that and its why i just yeet the email down and send them there.
But knowing atleast what type of user support we can give beside sending them to the email would be nice.
As the router restarting, IPV6 disabling and ect are dope...
covert chasm
Yeah we're aware of the moderation issues
crystal brook
Last time I contected support they threw me the "Uninstall Vrchat completely then reinstall" which ive done several times.
median basalt
Implications aren't enough, but I guess the system is intentionally vague. Too bad it can apparently still be abused, as I dropped two full trust ranks after blocking one modded client user
crystal brook
I can send u a screenshot of the email.
umbral reef
We need like a system to talk 1 at a time for tupper :')
Poor fella getting 12 questions at the same time
vocal shard
PR hell in a nutshell
sudden sky
Lmao
rigid sun
nope
median basalt
Or maybe 1 person can't handle the flood of messages that happens after 20k+ people get pinged
sudden sky
Hello friends
rigid sun
this is Support hell
umbral reef
@median basalt Dont make them repeat what i dm'd :^)
covert chasm
Its ok, it isn't just me handling it, we've got all our wonderful chat mods 
rigid sun
😃 Support isn't PR, as much as teams like to believe they are. They do provide PR, but they are absolutely not PR.
median basalt
The chat mods can clean up misbehavior but they can't respond to most of the questions
languid beacon
Will 2017 LTS update require avatar reuploads? That’s the only question most people are gonna have
rigid sun
.> I will tell someone they are wrong. Gladly.
median basalt
That's a good point
sudden sky
Chat seems a little active, well then
median basalt
Not that I'm touching the SDK again but y'know
covert chasm
@languid beacon Nope
vocal shard
Who do you think does PR then?
prisma plover
@covert chasm Question. Wouldn't the networked IK by design be impossible to get right because of the fact there's always some network latency ? What about people that live far away from the US or don't have Fiber Internet ?
Cause before the switch to networked IK, those people could actually... you know... draw stuff and play.
umbral reef
Also is on your guys list to provide what you just linked ingame?
As loads of users do not know that favorites do not get merged when the Vrchat account has an favorite already.
Its something i would judge fairly important for how easy it should to inform users about when merging an account.
covert chasm
Network latency always existed. how do you think you got the data about IK target positions before?
vocal shard
Thanks for the meme
rustic cosmos
^^^^^
covert chasm
It wasn't magically instantly teleported 😃
rustic cosmos
Tupper is absolutely correct here.
median basalt
The networked IK will by definition look different since the hand and head movements are interpolated differently. Overall it's a very bad change for certain groups. What I'm more interested in is, are there plans to give us an off-toggle?
paper pecan
Why not allow us to change between local and network IK? I think it would be best especially for those who live in different countries to where your server is. The game is really broken for those with stable international connections to your server that have 200+ latency because they dont live in the US
covert chasm
However, netIK is a lot more... susceptible? with network latency
that'll improve over time as we tune and fix it up
covert linden
Yes please we need an off toggle
languid beacon
Vrchat’s gonna have waaaay more content once 2018 comes around. If game-wide reuploads are ever needed again there needs to be a system in place to update before its live while still keeping the old blueprints until the game updates
boreal creek
👀 oblivious
sudden sky
I feel like I’m watching a speech with a bunch of reporters asking tupper questions
covert chasm
As far as I understand a "toggle" wouldn't really work, its kind of all or nothing
but I may be wrong
covert linden
Im tired of my boyfriends face injesting mine.
upbeat dust
The trust system doesn't work at all tbh. I've seen alot of crashers and toxic people with Trusted user rank.
rustic cosmos
The only difference is that the amount of data required is more, and network latency has a bigger effect on displaying your tracking to other players.
viral pumice
“Supper with Tupper” - ask all those nagging questions you always wanted. Lol.
covert chasm
Rokk, again, please stop misrepresenting information. Did you miss the part where I said we're continuing to work on and improve it?
rigid sun
Well it depends. If the network IK is handled completely differently in interpolation then yeah you'd be right i'd imagine
rustic cosmos
@boreal creek 👀
sudden sky
Lmao
prisma plover
Networked IK: Your positional data -> Server calculates things -> sends it back to you
Local IK: Your positional data is calculated on your PC -> Server receives it. Done.
covert linden
How much CAN it be fixed tho?
paper pecan
Tupper its great in terms of frame rate dont get me wrong but if its an all or nothing I would probably look at pivot servers where you have a mid point connection.
covert chasm
That's kind of a rhetorical question isn't it
languid beacon
A toggle would sill have the same bandwidth overhead you’d just be discarding data and recalculating it. The problem is the lower rate you get updates which won’t help with a toggle people with bad internet will still be swamped and delayed
prisma plover
Do you see the added delay ?
covert linden
Will people become more accurate so my face doesnt get eaten?
blissful solar
Why my anime girl avatar jiggle worse because of Oculus Quest optimizations???
median basalt
What am I misrepresenting? You can interpolate networked IK but it'll look different than the "old" IK.
rigid sun
Yes, but it depends on if the positional data is handled differently between the two systems @prisma plover
deep otter
so dumb question, but how do i change what gesture my hand does (in vr)?
covert chasm
I'll reiterate what we said in the Dev stream: VRChat is not done. Not even close. Everything will either be improved or replaced over time.
covert linden
@blissful solar it wont jiggle at all for quest or show up even
median basalt
Or removed :^)
prisma plover
Or broken
deep otter
I've managed to accidentally switch several times but i'm not sure how to do on purpose (vive)
boreal creek
First I heard of network IK was beatsaber when a friend wanted to get their VRchat avatar in the game, it's some interesting stuff that IK
rigid sun
If the interpolation is handled differently between the two then yes, that'll be the case @median basalt
covert linden
@deep otter you have to make the model yourself in unity.
blissful solar
Wait hole up @covert linden for real???!?!
deep otter
What do you mean?
white cairn
What's the performance benefit for networked IK, btw?
languid beacon
Problems getting acknowledged and saying it will get fixed is all I need to hear
paper pecan
CPU calculation decrease
deep otter
i mea like when i hold the vive triggers i make a fist, but sometimes it points at stuff, or does the rock hand gesture
prisma plover
@white cairn It's for the Quest users that can't handle the game in the first place because of the limited hardware.
rigid sun
@white cairn CPU based, by a significant margin
covert linden
Yes. Your avatar unless remade wont be seen on the quest and the quest cannot see dynamic bones(which is ehat makes it move) @blissful solar
deep otter
but idk how to switch modes manually
covert chasm
huge drop in CPU load @white cairn
median basalt
@deep otter sounds like Vive advanced control in settings
paper pecan
so more frames which is needed for quest and low end PCs
rigid sun
@prisma plover I have an i9 and the game now still runs better for me
white cairn
How much is huge?
covert linden
@deep otter the overrides are made WITH the avatar. Not in brcjat.
deep otter
oh that's what i checked cause i was on vive. wasn't sure what it did though
umbral reef
@white cairn Normally you calculate all the stuff on your end
Now you just do your avatar and send it to others (and they do the same) (This is far from a perfect explanation and cuts corners but gets you the idea)
covert linden
Vrchat **
rigid sun
Doesn't take 3-6 seconds to open the freaking menu
rustic cosmos
@covert chasm I am curious as I don't fully understand how systems like this work, but is the data essentially being streamed to the server, so even the slightest drop or slowness in connection results in a greater amount of IK weirdness?
tidal aspen
Instead of calculating everyone's position each second you only calculate your own position
deep otter
And what about public avatars?
languid beacon
It’s about offloading CPU intensive stuff to increased bandwidth
paper pecan
@white cairn I calculated in a crowded 40 + room still getting 45 frames
languid beacon
But some people have great PCs on sucky internet
white cairn
So it's a heck of a lot better
covert linden
Those are made by creators. the creators decide what the gestures do @deep otter
blissful solar
I have an Alienware Laptop thought so I don't need a drop in CPU load, why do I have to use Network IK?
paper pecan
when before I would have to turn off avatars
deep otter
oh ok
covert chasm
@rustic cosmos Packetloss will cause issues, yes. Very high latency will obviously also cause issues. Loss of bandwidth isn't a huge issue as long as data still has proper priority, which depends on your local and ISP network.
rigid sun
@blissful solar I have an i9 and i still appreciate the drop in CPU load
covert chasm
Those problems all existed with local Ik as well.
rigid sun
So you can stop with that nonsense
languid beacon
Yeah Australia tracking is destroyed
eager plinth
Its tradeoffs, You either reduce CPU load and get better latency on high performance systems, or alienate high latency systems with server IK
blissful solar
whats an i9, i have an alienware i said.
prisma plover
Until we are able to draw stuff that people can actually recognize, the IK will remain in broken status.
rustic cosmos
So the problem is only made worse by poorer connections.
covert chasm
I also have an i9-9900k at 5.3GHz and I got a pretty nice boost in populated instances
rigid sun
i9 is a processor that's probably better than anything you can get in that laptop
desktop grade
eager plinth
I have an I7 78k, got a decent boost
deep otter
@blissful solar i9 is a processor meant for servers or EXTREMELY high end desktop pc's
reef blaze
9 
white cairn
This seems like a very fixable problem
paper pecan
Thats why Im suggesting you have pivot servers. I'll write up a feature request later on it. Because coming from Australia to US Im getting 260-300 ping on a 500mbps connection
covert chasm
@prisma plover If you read the blog, we addressed that specifically.
languid beacon
Framerate is way better it’s undeiniable but if the tracking is lower fps the framerate is fake
rigid sun
I went with i9 cause HT helps with some applications I use, but turning it off also gives me better binning and cache
odd lava
I9 is new i7 just more expensive 😛
rigid sun
not really
white cairn
Falling back to local IK for "high precision" stuff and using the less intensive version when the user cares less
rigid sun
16mb cache vs 12mb cache, more optimal performance as far as voltage goes, etc
umbral reef
Do you on your personal roadmap have a spot where you want to update ingame information better?
Like a reference towards the particle limiter inside the game, better information (even on the home page website) on when favorites dont get transferred or ways to contact support before something goes wrong (ingame ofc).
rigid sun
It's still better than the i7 in a lot of other ways beyond just HT
covert chasm
@umbral reef Yes, that's basically an "always" task for me.
lavish fractal
i have a i9 9940x and i would rather have the local calculated ik then this shitty looking tracking where full body tracking user look like bad animations
prisma plover
Also is it possible to open beta test things... a little more. Before you know... actually releasing things that break everything ?
languid beacon
Tupper what if Network IK was not used in worlds that lack an android blueprint
covert chasm
@brisk bone Happy? Happy's a subjective term. I personally believe everything can always be improved. I think that applies here too.
languid beacon
No quest users can be there anyway
covert chasm
@languid beacon The benefit is not solely for Quest users.
blissful solar
what @lavish fractal said, i have performance to spare but not network bandwitdth.
umbral reef
And if we have things that seem fully forgotten on there? We yeet an email as always or?
rigid sun
And i have plenty of bandwidth
prisma plover
Basically Australians are doomed.
rigid sun
Your situation alone does not designate that a feature is more or less important
blissful solar
Great the Quest seems like a good fit for you
rigid sun
I also have a better computer than you
languid beacon
As a full body user it just doesn’t feel like a benifit. I’d rather have lower fps and smooth tracking 😦
blissful solar
I said I have an alienware pls dude lol
covert chasm
@brisk bone That is not what a lack of response indicates.
viral pumice
perhaps there’s a ton going on
deep otter
is fully body worth
rigid sun
..... i have a custom built pc i built last month with most of the highest end parts i could get at this time
lavish fractal
not now
upbeat dust
Hard to find and block an abusive player with Trusted rank since they're likely to crash you before you know who's causing all the weird effects in the room
viral pumice
Maybe people are busy
languid beacon
Full body is worth it, if you love VRChat
uncut gorge
@covert chasm can't we just have the old IK back in PC only worlds? I hate that the existence of Quest has forced this shitty experience on us.
median basalt
Generally it indicates that they don't care enough to respond
rigid sun
I'd imagine they can't do that
deep otter
i have 10 minutes logged in vrchat, time to spend $300 on full body tracking 
median basalt
Maybe if this game had even an ounce of communication or y'know, dev updates
paper pecan
fullbody is worth it if you live in the US right now if not the latency screws up everything
median basalt
Apparently nobody even knew that quest-beta was networked IK
covert chasm
VRChat is a small company. We can address so many problems at any given time, at the same time that we move forward towards further goals. Some bugs and issues get priority. Things that are "good enough for now" may be left until we have time to fit it into the roadmap.
uncut gorge
@rigid sun that's because they stupidly decided to have the quest and pc versions using the same codebase
covert chasm
That is what it indicates.
median basalt
Like doppler lmao
rigid sun
I don't actually disagree with their decision on that
languid beacon
I spent 560 on full body so 300 is a steal
viral pumice
Wow just wow
white cairn
Would be a mess to use two different IK systems I suspect
rigid sun
^
median basalt
Well it may double the upload bandwidth
covert chasm
@median basalt We just posted about current ongoing issues, we had a Dev Stream last week that was an hour of info, and I'm chatting with you now. What else do you think would fulfill your need for communication?
median basalt
It should definitely be doable if that can somehow be made to work properly
gray dragon
If anyone knows about individual finger tracking with the valve index on vrchat please message me or @ me
odd lava
Good luck guys 😅
uncut gorge
probably shouldn't have shoved a bunch of users with a less capable platform unto us then
median basalt
You mean in the last week? What about all the months beforehand?
white cairn
The solution is to tune the heck out of the new system, I suspect?
prisma plover
I hope what we saw in the latest dev stream isn't what you definite as "Good enough"
median basalt
There's only communication now because there are issues that are damn near impossible for anyone to ignore.
covert chasm
I'm rather unsure what I can do about things that have happened in the past.
viral pumice
If you aren’t happy perhaps go make your own game
rigid sun
And this is why i'm glad i'm not in game development
languid beacon
Not a mess just not beneficial. The reason Network IK looks bad is clients can’t send fast enough. So discarding their calculated IK to calculate it yourself won’t look any better
median basalt
I see veterans leaving left and right because of the brokenness or because the game has just become more toxic and less welcoming overall
uncut gorge
The networked IK is like a car company putting out a car where the once round wheel are now square and then just saying "ah, well yeah we know it doesn't really work how it should but uh, we'll try to figure something out"
when they really should recall that car and put the old version out again
covert chasm
Other than improve, that is.
ancient marsh
Isn't there a way to reduce the required bandwidth by using compression?
upbeat dust
Hope the finger tracking for index becomes supported before 28th june but I wouldn't bet my life on it hmm
median basalt
@viral pumice that's specifically what some people are doing, but it's also kind of a crap argument.
weary bison
there was big demand for networked IK even before the Quest announcement, it should benefit everyone, though some issues need to be stamped out
languid beacon
I’m sure it’s already compressed
uncut gorge
Yeah there was a demand until the dev team demonstrated in december that they could not do it properly
median basalt
The networked IK is already super compressed, it's very easy to compress as it's just a bunch of values between -1 and 1, and then two quaternions or XYZ values
viral pumice
I understand but, at the end of the day what do you do when low resources? focus on specific items
rigid sun
okay
viral pumice
Just because thing aren’t great atm doesn’t mean it’ll stay.
rigid sun
but everyone is asking for wildly different specific items to be worked on
median basalt
@viral pumice it kinda does
prisma plover
They are clearly in a rush to get the thing working on Quest.
median basalt
Past experience has proven it time and time again
viral pumice
Its tech. It’s games. It’s a moving, living thing.
umbral reef
@weary bison Game is almost unplayable for groups of users though 🤷
And its sadly another thing on the piles of bugs or highly lacking quality of life improvements users want.
Its not odd this is happening.
pastel galleon
Tupper when you say high ping will cause problems even with improvements of the ik, how much are we talking about? With the old ik I've always played with 200-240 ping and hardly ever saw anything behaving weird
rigid sun
you are all drama queens, i'm out
uncut gorge
Also keep in mind that compressed data takes time to decompress which can help contribute to the massive delay in the replication of movements that were noted in the dev team's announcement
rigid sun
Good luck not enjoying life
languid beacon
I’m sure network Ik can look good I just hope we don’t lose precision and shared space (things not perfectly lining up remotely) because VRChat did it very well and it’s important for immersion
covert chasm
@pastel galleon It'll never be improved beyond the latency you have, but we can definitely improve it up to that point.
weary bison
that's what the blog post was about
uncut gorge
Is the networked IK going over tcp/ip or UDP?
rigid sun
@covert chasm Wish you the best of luck, from one support to another
covert chasm
pastel galleon
Ok, good luck 👌
white cairn
Improving it up to the latency you have is getting the old quality back? 🤔
uncut gorge
yes
covert chasm
Part of it
median basalt
Well to be frank you're not gonna get a 1:1 replication of the old one because it's interpolated differently
uncut gorge
as far as the delay between when you do something and other people see it
paper pecan
Honestly though theres no way for those outside of the US to improve though
placid zealot
Just hope the bugs will be worked on. Tracking right now is so bugged and slow and inaccurate.
median basalt
The delays can go up to 2 seconds back and forth lol
As if being european and dealing with a huge voice delay wasn't bad enough on its own
uncut gorge
lol yeah Rokk, it's like we're playing a turn based strategy game now when we used to have real time
placid zealot
Ditto rokk lol
blissful solar
my waifu tried to high five me and I missed it because of the network lag, I looked like an IDIOT and didn't like it ONE BIT!
uncut gorge
All in all the patch was a hugely degraded experience for most of the userbase
pastel galleon
Give it time, it just came out
paper pecan
They reversed it when they released it last time
uncut gorge
yup and a lot of the same issues from last time are still there
tidal aspen
it was much worse last time compared to now
covert chasm
It was reversed previously as the server load was unexpectedly high.
hushed harness
we really need to have chat system at least able to type man it sucks when you suffer laryngitis and cant talk to people.
umbral reef
@pastel galleon Watch the examples linked and then you can fully understand why some users get some angry 🤷
A fair bit of the people complaining here can barely play or atleast not play the same style and way as before.
median basalt
Typing in this game would kinda ruin it tbh
upbeat dust
Avatars always load extremely slow for me now, and it's just ruining the experience for me smh
white cairn
I work on server-side stuff for a living, this is an interesting problem to think about 😅 Seems like implementing a rollback system with prediction would help with the latency a lot, if such a thing is not already in
median basalt
Desktopchat desktopchat
umbral reef
Discord in vr :poggers:
upbeat dust
also an enormous lag while avatars load lol
covert chasm
Like all things, it'll improve over time. That's basically the only way forward, so we're taking it.
pastel galleon
I know of the problems rn, I don't even want to get on vrchat lately because of it, but this ik is not fixed yet
hushed harness
discord in vr yeah that people still have vr chat, if you dont like the chat you can have the option to disable it.
vocal shard
i was getting so bothered with vrchats issues last night ruining my experience that I just dipped out in annoyance for the first time
paper pecan
what are you talking about how am I meant to enjoy my mirror simulator when my body doesnt move like it useeeed tooo sing
ancient marsh
Give them some time guys and keep in mind that VRChat is free. It'll improve.
white cairn
You guys will get loads of logs and bug reports on this, so fingers crossed :)
plain fossil
FeelsBadMan
paper pecan
feelsaleaseman
median basalt
So far it has only regressed over time tho 🤔
vocal shard
^
uncut gorge
The dev team hasn't been particularly fast at fixing things in the past Tupper. So it's hard to have faith that things will improve in a reasonable amount of time. I'm expecting months until we see even slight improvements followed by t he implementation of some other broken feature that will steal the spotlight before the IK gets fixed.
median basalt
Currently the networked IK is a step back for a lot of people other than potatoes
vocal shard
Things just keep going downhill, its not getting better we're just getting used to it
kek
median basalt
"We're working on it" is also what we heard about other stuff in the past
deep otter
someone filled everyones screens with hentai and crashed half the people in the hub
upbeat dust
ahh, just like in the past lol
coarse scaffold
its been 5 months since they reverted newtork IK. Now its finally back in and its still a mess after all this time
hushed harness
how about this better upload system and a profile editor that would be fun if we all can have customize profile pic.
upbeat dust
good thing you can now just squeeze your trigger and grip buttons to disable everything
uncut gorge
the M.O. has been. Break thing, sort of fix it but not really, implement new thing, break thing, sort of fix it but not really, etc
nothing ever gets completely fixed
vocal shard
fix one thing, break 12 as usual uwu
deep otter
yeah but vrchat IS free, and it doesn't have a massive dev team like cough cough fallout 76 cough
median basalt
A lot of the criticism simply comes from people that hate to see a game like this waste all of its potential
upbeat dust
fallout 76 literally have a thousand bugs and a dev team that listens to money
Just pray vrchat doesn't become this
hushed harness
whoa dont compare some new team who cant barely fix fallout 76 be glad that dev on vrchat actually talk to us, fallout 76 is a cesspoll of toxic dev.
pastel galleon
Tbh I would gladly pay for it to be all fixed
deep otter
on next update of vrchat: "pay $5 to open this door" 😂
uncut gorge
@deep otter part of being a small dev team is knowing what you can take on. Don't rewrite your IK replication system if you don't have the resources or knowledge to do it, especially when you already have a bunch of other shit on your plate that you could be working on instead
paper pecan
oh no...
upbeat dust
I still think paying 5-10 bucks for vrchat is a great idea to both support them, and to discourage script kiddies and crashers
deep otter
^
honestly as the game is right now it's worth $5-$10
i've only been playing a few days and despite the occasional bug or meme-lord, it's been fun
i've made new friends
uncut gorge
I've got a LOT of hours in this game, I love it. https://i.imgur.com/3pkBE68.png
deep otter
Woah
uncut gorge
I just hate seeing friends leave because of the dev's incompetence
median basalt
That mostly
uncut gorge
and seeing the game get worse and worse and worse
deep otter
i've only seen a few people with that many hoursl ogged in any game
Well how has it gotten worse?
upbeat dust
bet 3k of those hours are standing infront of a mirror while you're in unity and working on avatars amirite
eager plinth
Hey, I think the devs to a pretty ok job for what they got. VR is still new, and VRC is ambitious and gives users professional engine grade access to create stuff. As long as there is no huge errors or security flaws, be patient with their work. Specically when they reach out and contact with us. @covert chasm As someone who has been here since pre steam, Thanks for the hours you guys put in
deep otter
gottem
median basalt
I pretty much quit the game. A one-two punch of first being deranked thanks to hackers, and then networked IK being a disaster. All the reasons I played this game are completely gone.
median basalt
Body movements are sent over the network instead of being calculated on the client
Lol
deep otter
uh, why
median basalt
And as it turns out, it looks worse
upbeat dust
I don't know why the ranking system is still in the game. it should be removed at this point...
median basalt
It's clearly ineffective but I'm sure the devs don't see it that way.
deep otter
i mean in theory it makes sense, but it's kinda broken
eager plinth
Just give it time @median basalt
deep otter
i eat mayonnaise from the jar
eager plinth
Its a step into a new area, its buggy and it will be
median basalt
I haven't seen a decline in crashers or malicious users at all. The decline in crashing can be explained by "blocking 30% of the userbase's avatars means you crash 30% less"
uncut gorge
@deep otter Most recently, the networked IK that they already tried and failed at and reverted once. Other than that, performance as a whole has gotten worse, the game used to run smoother, invites used to actually go through in time, friends list used to actually update in real time, avatars used to load quicker as they were cached and didn't have to be downloaded each time, the list goes on and on
eager plinth
As long as people are free, crashers will happen
deep otter
they aren't cached?
median basalt
You can even do it the other way around and only hide higher ranked avatars, it'll do you the same amount of good.
eager plinth
Its inevitable
deep otter
When I joined a world the avatars i'd already seen loaded instantly
how are they not cached
eager plinth
You get engine acess with crashers, or no freedom but safety
uncut gorge
they are cached until that user switched, then if he switched back to an avatar you had just seen, you'll download it again
dusky mesa
is there a bug report channel here?
deep otter
lmao
median basalt
Not anymore, use the canny for bugs
upbeat dust
This game should cost money, and there should be ways to prevent malicious avatars from being uploaded, and hacker clients from connecting to vrchat at all.
that's a pretty big pipedream though
covert chasm
@dusky mesa https://vrchat.canny.io
uncut gorge
vrchat dot canny . io
deep otter
they removed bug report channel? 😂
dusky mesa
thanks Tupper
uncut gorge
yeah it's more useful to use the canny
median basalt
It wasn't looked at anyway and only became a support channel anyway
covert chasm
It got swapped to #user-support-old . Reporting bugs in Discord isn't useful.
median basalt
At least this way it can fulfill its purpose
upbeat dust
bug report channel here is now User support
deep otter
i just had a flashback to besthada removing the refund request page cause too many people asked for refunds
xd
upbeat dust
That's illegal.
deep otter
and they got sued
covert chasm
This is a bit different. Its very difficult to track reports in a live-chat feed. 😛
upbeat dust
That, they deserved.
deep otter
i know i was making a joke lol
eager plinth
Yep
hushed harness
guess what having that cost money, wont help the game to demotivated hackers. other game like rust have been increasing value invaded by toxic hackers unfortunately.
deep otter
tupper what exactly determines a users rank? play time?
cause people who just afk could get leveled up
eager plinth
Play time, uploads, friends and a clean mod kick record @deep otter
deep otter
ah
median basalt
User ranks are intentionally kept vague
pastel galleon
Afk doesn't work, and the details of increasing ranks is not public
Play the game, add friends, just don't be alone
umbral reef
Uuuu no really. No one but the devs know how it works for sure and they won't tell ya.
deep otter
loneliness intensifies
median basalt
Literally nobody except the devs know, but from personal experience, a malicious user can drop your rank.
upbeat dust
rank should also be determined after how many particle effect amount you have....
umbral reef
So is just play the game really
deep otter
i saw someone flying earlier how do i do that 🍭
eager plinth
Its server side
umbral reef
@eager plinth beside that we have a clear cut example of how it happened.
eager plinth
Flying is cheating, unless some flying avatars went unschathed
upbeat dust
Seems silly to me whenever I see someone with trusted rank having a 3 million poly avatar and 10 million particle effects
deep otter
big think
median basalt
It's almost as if trust ranks are a bad indicator lol
pastel galleon
There are flying avatars, I don't think that's cheating?
eager plinth
Ignore cheaters unless they are malicious, thats my policy any way
umbral reef
If a user ain't online for a fair time and suddenly randomly drops two full ranks. What o what can be the cause. Not a kick or ban. Or reports because those ain't valid of they ain't online...
median basalt
It depends how they're flying. These days it's impossible to tell from flight alone
eager plinth
And the latest update broke flying avatars
upbeat dust
Ironically, I only trust Visitors lol
hushed harness
server sided is becoming literally joke at this point.
eager plinth
Hey, ranks are just seperation of hours to me. And usually trusted users get bored and either are creative or malicious
pastel galleon
My rank actually increased after I stopped playing and logged on again after a while lol
upbeat dust
that reminds me, I often see modded Nikei avatars with loud music, cancerous shaders and effects n stuff
deep otter
so all i'm really getting from this is that lag's an issue and so is crasher trolls
as well as dev support
deep otter
yeah that seems about right
deep otter
it does
umbral reef
Doesnt mean people don't want to see it improved
eager plinth
So expect people to do what people do
pastel galleon
Vrc still gets money
deep otter
it doesn't matter what people want if theres a 10 person dev team working on a game that thousands of people play
eager plinth
I like improvements, but people will act as they will
deep otter
dont be greedy, now
hybrid prism
He is right, given the amount of time they've had to fix the game, they seem to break or bug another aspect of VRC.
umbral reef
Like it has been for two years.
eager plinth
Time, patience and bug reports
umbral reef
Ow wait
deep otter
dissing the devs won't make the platform shine and improve
median basalt
@eager plinth I presume you never had to deal with support
coarse scaffold
@eager plinth time and patients... you do know there are feature and bug reports from over a year ago
median basalt
A hacker dropped my rank and support told me to go suck it. I reported a few worlds that broke optimization guidelines and they're still up
Yep that too
eager plinth
Of course, but its not simple stuff to fix
median basalt
@deep otter neither will sucking up improve the platform, otherwise VRC would have been the most amazing thing to ever exist considering the sheer number of shmooze that goes on
eager plinth
Something of this scale is new
deep otter
coding isn't a magic wand, for those of you who don't code at all. when you fix something you litterally break several other things in the process.
eager plinth
I dont suck up, if I see glaring issues I will point them out
median basalt
There are Discords that keep track of who's banned from the VRC Discord so they can ban you from there too
eager plinth
However, they are trying and communicating
deep otter
in a game even this size, fixing stuff is going to be hard most likely
umbral reef
@deep otter depends. I work in a place where a coding problem costs hunderts of euro every minute it's still broken and can cause not just me my job.
It's amazing how little problems we get and the bug testing we do.
median basalt
There are community provided fixes already, they just insult the people who give them those fixes.
FYI the manager has an extremely bad track record at his earlier places of work
eager plinth
VR is not a simple task
As much as people can be unscrupulous, I see a roadmap and improvements
median basalt
It costs $0 to not remove doppler but they did it anyway
deep otter
it costs $0 to play vrchat, but you do it anyway
median basalt
A lot of the criticism is about things that actively made the game worse and that could have simply not been done too
deep otter
eager plinth
You aint a fly on the wall, you dont know what happens
deep otter
i'm joking, joking
median basalt
I do know though
median basalt
They ran into some worlds with high walk speed that distorted voices. So they said "eww" and set the project's doppler factor to 0. They apparently didn't know that audio sources have individual doppler levels.
umbral reef
@deep otter also costs money to not mock users who provide feedback, solutions, community support and ECT
hybrid prism
What I feel personally make the game better would be to let some members of the community who can code in C# and have some experience in game development work with the devs to fix vrc. But that costs money
deep otter
💸
eager plinth
Everything costs money
deep otter
i spent $300 making a free game
median basalt
It also costs $0 not to blow investment money on a leisure trip to japan
Speaking of money and budget
eager plinth
Again, thats heresay, and even then we dont know what happened on said trip
median basalt
It wouldn't have to be a monologue if we had communication :^)
eager plinth
You are offering nothing to them, just asking loaded questions
deep otter
i'm sure they've all heard this all before
every time i've come into this chat channel i've not once seen anybody NOT talking bout bugs or dev's not helping. on the same issues. every day.
eager plinth
Same for everyone else
deep otter
insert donald trump emoji that i can't use here
eager plinth
Its a two sided issue
Not just a dev issue
Like I said, I wont pretend devs are perfect humans
deep otter
well you know i haven't actually found any issues with vrchat, as a new user
uncut gorge
You weren't here yesterday @brisk bone when there was a conversation going on about the networked IK and VRPill just kept chiming in shilling the quest and completely ignoring the discussion
deep otter
all this stuff you're talking about that made the game worse, i haven't noticed
umbral reef
@eager plinth There have actually been extremely detailed writen up reports, full support ready documents, bug tracking and ect that been ignored. Same applies for small changes with large impacts that get ignored unless its public and with a high reach.
We have done what we said earlier before. As this isnt a chat towards devs but explaining out cases to you guys who mock us for doing the first thing. And now we are just both yelling into the void
tidal aspen
if you're new you wouldn'tve known how it was before
median basalt
I honestly don't get why anyone would want a Quest
eager plinth
Before was worse lmao
umbral reef
@uncut gorge Dont forget it was in the wrong channel also from him.
deep otter
as the superior life form in this chat room, you must all bend a knee to me @brisk bone
umbral reef
He posted legit in the wrong channel 😂
deep otter
tidal aspen
The quest is fine for a budget setup
median basalt
If the Quest was PC connectable as well, the Rift S would be useless and the Quest would be great. As it stands, it's a waste of money
eager plinth
I dont like quest as much as anyone else, but its a business choice and I respect it
uncut gorge
yeah but he still saw the conversation at hand and didn't acknowledge it
rocky blaze
"Voice
We’re aware of some significant issues on Quest (and sometimes on PC) where in very high-population worlds, voice degrades. This results in crackling audio, high-latency, and other issues. We plan on addressing this issue as soon as possible."
YA BOI
median basalt
Some people legit ditch their Rift for a Quest
coarse scaffold
@deep otter why do you think we keep mentioning all of these issues, because clearly people dont notice or dont know exactly what is happening
tidal aspen
yeah that part I don't understand
deep otter
My whole point when i said that is if people don't notice, why is it a big issue
tidal aspen
but it's a good entry level headset
deep otter
i understand it IS an issue, but i dont see how it's worth such a big fuss
tidal aspen
people have noticed which is WHY it's an issue
hybrid prism
I love how the vrc discord blows up when an argument or a new update goes live lol
tidal aspen
if you're new you wouldt've known how it was before the update thus you don't notice the issues
uncut gorge
@brisk bone same, I don't blame them for going after the quest audience, I'm pissed that them doing so has resulted in a severely degraded experience for the rest of us
deep otter
not after they get their first dose of the hentai-spam-crash people @brisk bone
eager plinth
Before the update was also shit
deep otter
sanity = gone
eager plinth
For diffrent reasons
median basalt
If Quest catches on, it feels like desktop VR is taking a blow
slate verge
i knew there was something fishy about the mics
uncut gorge
Exactly Rokk
deep otter
If quest is actually up to par with like the vive, it'll be a big deal
but if it's something akin to google cardboard, not so much
deep otter
yea
median basalt
Lmao I got another warning for "misinformation"
eager plinth
I respect it like I said, ill let them work it out
tidal aspen
The index still shows there's a market for high end desktop VR so I don't thin it'll affect it that much
median basalt
CDN's are still for more than just distributing files though
eager plinth
If we get second classed, ill be mad
tidal aspen
and as time goes on mobile VR will just get better
eager plinth
Otherwise, its whatever
deep otter
i'm assuming quest uses a different kind of engine or something
since it's lighter weight
deep otter
🤔
uncut gorge
We already did get 2nd classed Riggway, they forced networked IK down our throat because that was the only way the game could perform on Quest
eager plinth
Its a neutered VRC experience
deep otter
but can it run crysis 
uncut gorge
It's had over half a year
median basalt
I like how I get repeated warnings at the same time I became less active in the help/development channels
eager plinth
Clearly not long enough, but I digress
umbral reef
It can work right to a limited extend.
Networked related things have there cap for most people in the world
eager plinth
If they can fix it, cool. If not, delet it
deep otter
what's the point of network ik? what was wrong with local calculations?
median basalt
I did stuff like a year ago that could have gotten me banned but I guess they need people to tell others how to work around the shit they break, like legacy animations being removed
eager plinth
Local can eat up CPU
median basalt
¯_(ツ)_/¯
deep otter
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
floral flaxBOT
┬──┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ) There you go
ruby burrow
Aside from the awkward relation Quest has had with this game, the way I'm seeing Quest, is as a gateway drug for real VR.
paper cloak
you were calculating every single person's IK locally. This sytem has all the calculations done server-side and sent to you
median basalt
Networked IK was presumably rolled out because Quest would otherwise have a hard time
But it was rolled out way before too
With some bad results, so they rolled it back temporarily
eager plinth
Most PCS can have a hard time with multiple instances of full IK in a world
deep otter
what if you just performed your own calculations and sent that data server-side, wouldn't that work
paper cloak
that's how it used to be
deep otter
🤦
paper cloak
it was very CPU heavy
median basalt
That's what already happens tho, you calculate your own IK result and send it to the server
uncut gorge
Firestar, since the game isn't multithreaded in the ways that matter, calculation the IK locally for everyone on your screen would hurt your framerate. The idea behind the networked IK was that you only calculte your own IK locally, and then broadcast that info to everyone else.
meager solstice
That’s a worse system @deep otter
ruby burrow
I expect Quest to push both PC and PC-VR sales in the long run. Once people realise that VR is worth it, and start getting jealous of the wider and fuller things on offer outside of mobile VR.
covert chasm
@uncut gorge The game is not single-threaded. Please do not spread misinformation.
deep otter
dusky mesa
i leave for a minute and there's already 200+ new messages
eager plinth
Correct @ruby burrow
paper cloak
oh sorry, I thought you meant performing your own calculations for other peopls avatars
median basalt
A lot of stuff on the game seems to run on the main thread though, is the point
covert chasm
No, the client calculates your IK locally, then sends the result over the network to other players.
deep otter
that's what i said
median basalt
A lot of stuff was pulled off the main thread I heard
eager plinth
Yea, I see lots of misinfo but im ignoring it tbh
median basalt
I saw a screenshot of a dev saying voice was moved to a new thread
covert chasm
It was
umbral reef
Ey i got a dope idea
Maybe take there rumors/false information and yeet them onto a page to 'debunk' them.
Then instead of having to write it a billion times its a copy paste.
median basalt
But stuff like IK and dynamic bone all seems to run on the same thread
There is multithreading but it's not quite as good as it could be yet
deep otter
tupper's stalking this chat 
eager plinth
Lots of "Info" is heresay or misconstruned
uncut gorge
there I edited m post tupper
eager plinth
It has to multithread IK
paper cloak
Then every time there isn't something addressed in the "debunk page", people will think it's real
eager plinth
Or else your computer would explode
covert chasm
Dynamic Bones might be slightly more optimized from Jobs/ECS, but the operation is typically hierarchical and only benefits partially from parallelization
deep otter
i remember my friend's having trouble with full-body lag
median basalt
The IK isn't multithreaded
umbral reef
@paper cloak They already think pc's can blow up so 🤷 Cant get much worse really lmao
eager plinth
Do you really expect multibody bone tracking to run on one thread
little plover
so whats being done for mute players that depend on using pens but cant with the new IK stuff?
median basalt
That's kinda the point of why it was networked to begin with
paper cloak
the amount of BS rumors spread in this game would make it impossible to keep a page like that updated
median basalt
@little plover "it is being looked into".
eager plinth
Yea lmao
covert chasm
I don't know, have you?
eager plinth
too many rumors, if I had a shot for every "PC Killer client" rumor I would be dead from alchohol poisoning
little plover
really wish this wouldve been tested on a beta branch first before shoving it down our throats
eager plinth
In an hour
umbral reef
And ofc- you dont throw everything on there just the most thrown around ones. We see the same ~10 rumors/misinformed posts here every week... So that would be a start to make clear.
deep otter
ah wait, i heard a rumor someone's PC got bricked through vrchat. is that true?
covert chasm
Nope.
eager plinth
never
meager solstice
not a chance
uncut gorge
not true lol
eager plinth
Never can and never will be
queen mango
@deep otter No. It's only a rumor
deep otter
p h e w
paper cloak
sometimes I scroll through the player list and see people's game status as "Playing Visual Studio - Working on VRCClientKillerRip" and just laugh my ass off
median basalt
Hardware damage or "bricking" is definitely not the case, but it should be mentioned that there were exploits on avatars/worlds in the past that could affect files on your PC.
slate verge
pc getting brick through online stuff isn't possible, but i did got crashed one time to the point i had to restart my pc. Dick move coming from that one player.
eager plinth
P c k i l l e r
paper cloak
I've been crashed from baking lights in unity more than I have in vrc lmao
eager plinth
Files can only be effected in the unity area, unless unity has some horrid exploit
And that would be amazing
rigid crescent
Eye tracking and web panels :3
eager plinth
*Amazingly bad
median basalt
I am 99% sure you can still make a world that opens someone's web browser
paper cloak
It's happened a couple times
median basalt
Because that was also possible
eager plinth
No lmao
median basalt
@eager plinth no m8, I had a file written to my desktop.
eager plinth
You cant run HTML stuff from any unity stuff
paper cloak
you definitely could, but that's not a discussion for the official discord
rigid crescent
Lol it's why they removed web panels
covert chasm
@median basalt No longer possible. That exploit was reported and patched.
eager plinth
And even if it does, UAC would block it
median basalt
Yeah I know, that's why I said in the past
Unless you mean the web browser thing, in which case I haven't actually looked too hard yet 😅
covert chasm
🤔
median basalt
My bad
vocal shard
eager plinth
Windows cant write and run itself in an auto exec format without admin privledge'
rigid crescent
Tupper how come that old DB touching method does t work breh
What broke it last year
median basalt
Because mirror copies make your colliders collapse breh
covert chasm
Don't know, not aware of which method you're talking about
rigid crescent
Lameeee
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Server didnt get enough headpats so it got angry
median basalt
Fixing it would be a problem for flying avatars btw
eager plinth
So?
uncut gorge
I remember making forum posts waaaaaay back in the day that would make someone's DVD drive open
paper cloak
The worst is when people say avatars can host exploits on them to harm your computer, so they just have to join your lobby and you get infected. So cringey.
median basalt
@paper cloak that was true in the past though.
rigid crescent
It was a method you could use to touch hinge whatever to move dynamic bone something or another
median basalt
Yeah, the hinge joints kinda freak out over their own colliders
paper cloak
In the past, but there's no way to do it now
rigid crescent
Tldr touch anime ears
deep otter
taro link to stream
rigid crescent
It was a result of some fix to mirrors right?
ruby burrow
I did meet a guy recently that had some kind of setup where his physics could be touched by his own avatar if you cloned it. But it wasn't using dynamic bones I think. Can't recall how he explained it.
paper cloak
@rigid crescent are you really famous if you have to put it in your name so people know?
rigid crescent
Oh, a DOA model?
coarse scaffold
@rigid crescent touchable avatars broke a long time ago. Have not tested in this build, it might actually be more stable
rigid crescent
No it was a meme lol
paper cloak
gottem
rigid crescent
Nah still broke sadly
median basalt
From what I understand it was a fix to mirrors yes
They overhauled the way mirrors worked so you wouldn't disappear if another mesh on your avatar was called "Body".
paper cloak
orly
rigid crescent
If it was a big boob DOA model Squishy then that method works but shreds your avatar
paper cloak
I didn't know that part was fixed now
median basalt
The good old days when someone could stand in front of your menu and block it
"Get out of my menu!!"
I miss the green nameplates
ruby burrow
By the way Rokk, did you do anything fancy for the camera on your Shameimaru avatar, to allow it's camera to share it's display with others using the same avatar?
rigid crescent
He's explained it to me like 50 times I just forgot/don't get how it works lol
pastel galleon
I miss them too
median basalt
@ruby burrow no, that's a side effect of how cameras share render textures.
Due to the way I have it set up, the camera is in a weird spot where friends can see it but others can't.
ruby burrow
I thought so. Some guy was adamant telling me that was impossible unless you deliberately setup some special thing. I forget what he said it was.
median basalt
Still not sure why they did that. Cameras are local only, unless set up in X way (component and/or object disabled by default, forgot which), which then makes them friends only. They should just have been added to the trust system, especially considering a certain exploit with them (take over viewpoints) was fixed
ruby burrow
Have been wanting to try something similar myself, with a more deliberete focus on that quirk.
median basalt
It happens because both avatars are from identical ID's
If someone takes the fullbody version it'll be different
pastel galleon
I wish the menu worked like it used to, idk what happened to that, but you can't use it while falling anymore, so you have to wait to respawn, and you can't "float" by clicking on a menu after you jump anymore
paper cloak
I miss that so much
median basalt
Had to set up a fullbody version because I had to mangle the avatar to get it to work well. Do the "FBT Fix" and basically remove the neck from the equation. That stuff.
paper cloak
jumping off a ledge to hide from people by standing in the air
median basalt
You can still do that, it's harder though
The hand held menu becomes very inaccurate at higher speeds
So you have to airwalk yourself to 0 velocity basically
pastel galleon
oh ok
rigid crescent
It makes mid air flips harder
paper cloak
the real skill is in backflip tomato tosses now anyways
pastel galleon
can't be cool anymore
vale epoch
I like the trust system so much in 90% of cases... but it’s got some issues. I really miss when EVERYONE could see what I wrote
Also I miss accurate writing
I’m having to actually speak to people now. Which is disgusting to me and everyone around me, honestly.
median basalt
Ah, apparently they did fix the last remaining "open Final IK documentation" exploit a while back lmao
tidal aspen
I suppose it's just because it can be pretty slow to load all of the drawings