that should work not only better performance wise but should take care about the audio 😃
#vrchat-general-2
ruby needle
prisma plover
Oh the actual VRChat Oculus version you mean ?
ruby needle
it performes better yes
which makes sense as you have no more steam vr stuff going on in the background 😃
prisma plover
Although... if you have FBT...
prisma plover
Sad 😢
meager solstice
Do u have fbt?
ruby needle
no it wont
stone current
ye
meager solstice
Why would it @stone current.... steam vr has to be running in order for it to detect
stone current
i use playspace mover and stuff so couldnt switch
ruby needle
honestly playspace mover is so not worth staying on steam vr imo
stone current
it really is
ruby needle
nah
meager solstice
No
prisma plover
I wonder if disabling SteamVR Home when starting VR could help with performance. Less to load. 🤔
ruby needle
but every has their own view
stone current
all my avatars are pretty short so i cant reach anything
ruby needle
fix the avatars
ruby needle
insted of working around the problem 😉
stone current
stop trying to 'fix' something thats not broken
meager solstice
My only problem with the vive is the fact u have to use steamvr
prisma plover
Yeah
meager solstice
Steamvr is bad in my opinion
stone current
well vive is part of steam
meager solstice
No it’s not
stone current
at least its on the store
meager solstice
They kinda broke that when they decided to make their own vr headset
prisma plover
I wonder if it's possible to reduce the performance footprint of SteamVR by disabling some useless garbage such as Home.
stone current
but yea i want to have short avatars and grab things from up high
and its easier for me to move my viewpoint around to do / look at stuff
like for example taking a neat picture of a map
umbral reef
@prisma plover Its not bad unless you are on oculus... Because then you run the oclus stuff AND steamVR
stone current
yea its kinda annoying
prisma plover
Yeah I'm on Oculus and Vive, because FBT.
stone current
i wished the driver could already be standalone
umbral reef
Its something oculus wanted 
Anyone claiming different is just uninformed
They had just like WMR all the options to use SteamVr or atleast integrate it right
stone current
like the driver wouldnt need to have the oculus home stuff running to let it be used
theres probably like some hack that disables that lol
prisma plover
Like disable everything except the bare essential.
stone current
no not just that but like
be able to control the oculus
like all the other headsets
w/o needing to have this home thing active
and w/o needing to do these other processes just activate the things and open the inputs
but ig its just their choice
prisma plover
Basically a third party SteamVR driver for Oculus, that bypass all the Oculus software crap.
stone current
i couldnt find any performance difference myself but
tiny ginkgo
Accidentally opening the Oculus menu while having the SteamVR menu open
It's my nightmare
ruby needle
you cant bypass all oculus crap
if you want to use the oculus
the other way works
there is OpenComposite for example
meager solstice
^ i use to use that
ruby needle
but that wouldnt allow for thrid party stuff
you shouldnt anymore wigma
install native oclus release
used it before but now there is no point
native release is even better then that.
prisma plover
Interesting. It's like some sort of SteamVR -> Oculus wrapper ?
languid beacon
“Bypass oculus crap” Uuh oculus runs much better running VRChat via the OcukusSDK compared to running it via OpenVR
ruby needle
sure thing but if you want the benefit of both
languid beacon
Yes if you use hybrid you need OpenVR
ruby needle
you gotta use both
tiny ginkgo
Speaking of overlays, is there a way to read Discord while on VRC through Oculus?
prisma plover
Hmmm 🤔
languid beacon
Yes open the oculus dash and turn on the monitor
ruby needle
oculus doesnt have third party (yet) afaik.
oh right
there is dash on windows 10
i forgott
tiny ginkgo
So virtual desktop?
stone current
hasty wedge
dash is deadly since last update 
prisma plover
Oh yes you can. You can open the desktop thingy in Oculus, and grab the Discord window and pin it. It will stay with you while in VRChat.
languid beacon
It’s much better than steams actually
jade stirrup
what kinda of VR glasses and controllers do you guys own?
stone current
steams desktop thing doesnt even work when im on vrchat
hasty wedge
10% chance to lock ur controllers 
stone current
its the most annoying crap
languid beacon
You can pin it in-game
tiny ginkgo
@jade stirrup Oculus
languid beacon
It’s nice
tiny ginkgo
I will try that definitely
jade stirrup
do you recommend it, @tiny ginkgo ?
languid beacon
It’s nice
tiny ginkgo
Sounds amazing
stone current
i cant even use that
tiny ginkgo
Yes @jade stirrup it's the best purchase I've done in years
jade stirrup
how much did you pay for it?
prisma plover
My only issue with the Oculus desktop thingy: It closes windows very often.
stone current
bc my IPD wont reach the scale i need everything thats a GUI at screen level duplicates for me and i cant read any of it
tiny ginkgo
399 on black Friday
jade stirrup
okok, its 470€ for me currently, really considering buying it
languid beacon
Oculus dash on a dual monitor setup is great you can move them around in 3D where you want and pin them so they stay there even with the overlay closed
prisma plover
Yup
Meanwhile the Steam VR Desktop shows all monitors at once, making text super ultra tiny.
stone current
i only have 1 but it doesnt show anyways bc idfk
languid beacon
Also I’m not 100% sure if steam desktop has a keyboard I have tried everything to spawn one
stone current
like every time i go into vrchat it just shows as invisible or says 'broadcasting.....'
literally impossible to do anything
jade stirrup
anyone else have ocolus rift and would recommend it?
prisma plover
yeah the Steam desktop has a keyboard. But it uses the Steam control layout, so you type one hand at the time.
languid beacon
SteamVR overlay is very unfriendly oculus touch controllers in general I mean I can understand why they’d make it annoying on purpose but it’s still bad
stone current
also vrchat has this annoying problem where it stays drawing in the background no matter if i try to get rid of it
like if i Alt Esc out of vrchat it will run on top of the desktop layer
instead of just running somewhere else like its own hidden display
is there a way to fix that
stone current
no i dont rlly care about that part
it doesnt happen often for me
but i dont want vrchat to be drawing things in the background behind everything
cuz i can even see it underneath the taskbar
prisma plover
@jade stirrup The Rift controllers are ergonomic, the installation is easy, and it's not too expensive. However if you plan to get full body tracking later, it will cost more on the long run than getting the Vive + 3 trackers.
stone current
i want it like on mac how u can just slide it out to its own display
languid beacon
Run it in maximized windowed mode instead of full screen
languid beacon
Alt enter
jade stirrup
i hear people recommend 3 trackers on oculus aswell, @prisma plover
How do you obtain full body tracking?
stone current
u need a mixed setup
languid beacon
I use that setup too
stone current
base stations and trackers from other brands
oculus doesnt have any full body tracking itself
languid beacon
Oculus, touch; 3 vive trackers, 3 oculus sensors, 2 vive base statons
prisma plover
2 Oculus trackers can do 360 tracking, but there might be blind spots depending of room size.
3 trackers offers better tracking of course.
stone current
and yea oculus controller tracking isnt the best with 2 trackers usually
languid beacon
Expensive but works fine
jade stirrup
what are the "Base stations"
stone current
sensors
prisma plover
Also known as "Lighthouses"
jade stirrup
oh ok
stone current
like oculus sensors
languid beacon
Base stations are vive’s “sensors”
stone current
u can get stuff like nolo vr also
jade stirrup
okok
prisma plover
They look like cubes: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21uL6dvmLUL._SX466_.jpg
stone current
which is just 1 base station but obv not the best tracking but better than kinect
languid beacon
Vive and oculus tracking are backwards. On vive, the base stations emit the light. On oculus, the headset and controllers emit the light
prisma plover
Which is a good thing because they don't interfere too much with each other.
stone current
ive heard the experience is similar but its easier for oculus controllers to get lost with basically the same setups
languid beacon
I have no problems with oculus devices in hybrid setup
stone current
like mine for example it should pretty easily pick up my controllers
im using only 2 sensors tho
languid beacon
The trackers get screwy sometimes but the oculus tracking is always solid
stone current
i have one pointed that (\) way in front of me and one pointed this (/) way to my left
and it shows that my controllers are in the range
but it has absolutely no idea where they are
languid beacon
Yeah with only 2 sensors you can get points of ambiguity
stone current
and no i cant reduce the angles between them
bc oculus is like "NO need more angle"
whenever i try to set it up like that
extremely annoying
prisma plover
Got to say: 3 Oculus sensors + 2 Vive stations = A mess of wire.
languid beacon
You can ignore oculus’s sensor placements
stone current
it wont let me
languid beacon
Just skip that page
stone current
i cant preceed with setup
languid beacon
You can
stone current
yea but then it wont know where my sensors are
prisma plover
Yes you can tell it to ignore. It will continue.
languid beacon
Yes it will
languid beacon
The setup does not really give you the best setup. It will yell at you for a much superior setup
stone current
or will it mess up tracking
yea bc the way i have it now
is they turn away from my playspace
bc oculus wont stop pissing on me about the angle they make
languid beacon
You can’t move them after the setup but you can skip the page where it yells at you and just continue to the next page and make the guardian
prisma plover
prisma plover
It basically says "The Sensor Tracking screens will likely indicate that your sensors aren’t positioned correctly, but if you’ve followed the diagrams above you can go ahead and skip past this error."
languid beacon
Yups
It is very picky and sometimes will actively give you bad advice
Just position them to minimize dead zone
And have as much redundancy as possible
stone current
i think the angle is larger
prisma plover
Opposite sides, in diagonal, high above the ground, pointing down. The best I think.
stone current
https://i.gyazo.com/3567d2d66448742adad9f0d1b15b4d46.png like the sensors angle detection
but if i rotate those toward my playspace should it work better
i think i made the beams less wide than they actually are tho
prisma plover
Yeah if you rotate the sensors so their field of view cover everything, that should help
stone current
i have one pointing more at floor and another pointing more at eye level
languid beacon
3 corners at 45 degree angles pointing to the center of a squareish playspace is the best practical setup. Otherwise just make a equilateral triangle if you have a smaller space.
stone current
i only have 2 sensors my dood
languid beacon
Then pretend you haven 3 and omit the back one
prisma plover
Pretty much
So either both sensors at the front, one in each corner. Pointing toward the middle of the playspace. So their view crosses together as much as possible.
languid beacon
With 2 sensors it recommends you keep them close and parallel. This sucks.
stone current
my space is only 3 ft in each direction
languid beacon
Make them as far away as possible and pointing toward the center. It will yell at you. Ignore it
vocal shard
Hello
prisma plover
Nah. Install them correctly first. Then run the setup.
vocal shard
Who play vc on oculus
vocal shard
Nice
prisma plover
Mounting them on the wall high up would allow the field of view to be wider than just making them sit on a desk or shelf with the included stands too.
vocal shard
The only pron the controls is a litlle mess
stone current
not rlly
joysticks to walk and rotate like a game controller
and gestures sorta like ur actually doing them
vocal shard
Yes cuz u need to wierd thing to do stuf
stone current
wat lol
vocal shard
Like to get a sowrd and all that
stone current
thats not really oculuss fault but ok
stone current
xd
vocal shard
Like if u play on pc u can do every thing
prisma plover
Grabbing a sword with the touch controllers is basically :
Step 1: Grab the sword like you would do IRL
Step 2: Enjoy.
😆
ember raptor
@covert chasm
I've run tests and been working with the shader community including xiexe on my shader. Here are the gpu times of common shaders
all times in ms
poiyomi toon (new one)
.88-1.28
poiyomi master (old one)
1.14-1.75
cibbi
.84-1.18
standard
.88-1.26
noenoe toon opaque
.85-1.23
unlit
.61-.89
legacy diffuse
.87-1.21
Could you please stop publicly shaming me and the people who use my shader
stone current
oof
earnest harbor
tupper also believes in a game with no dynamic bones, his opinion from the start is trash
vocal shard
Ton*
stone current
yea but thats because the person who made the avatar wanted to leave
either more common gestures available for use
or just didnt put it on any similar gestures
i.e. handgun gesture for a pistol
ember raptor
the current iteration of my shader is on par with standard and isn't bad at all
stone current
r u sure its not a joke oof
ember raptor
whether it's a joke or not it's someone of high authority down talking me
ember raptor
I'm not starting drama I'm just saying that publicly shaming specific players without valid reasoning isn't cool
and unprofessional
earnest harbor
well, he also suggests 2 shaders that are also bugged in most worlds soo..
cubeds has issues with certan light sources, and noenoes is too bright
rigid crescent
didnt you just brig attention to hundreds what not many originally knew
ember raptor
I'm not asking for people to defend either side just publicly showing frametimes so people at least know validity of the situation
rigid crescent
lol
earnest harbor
and suggesting using standard shader with is horrible in nearly every world -.-
prisma plover
Well I mean... it's a suggestion, not an order 🤷
earnest harbor
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if in the near future that tupper is either given full control, or thrown out
earnest harbor
the changes he wants and is very vocal about hurt creativity and style
prisma plover
Technically he's an admin of the VRChat Discord, not a developer (I think ?).
rigid crescent
like what?
opaque hawk
He is community manager
stone current
yea but u have 2 understand that its like a team effort
earnest harbor
no dynamic bones whatsoever for one thing?
stone current
unless they become the ceo of vrchat or something
prisma plover
Yeah, so at the end of the day, only the devs can make changes.
meager solstice
Idk what u mean by his ideas/he wants
ember raptor
I'm publicly available and willing to change things. If anyone has any issues with my stuff feel free to pm me and I'll work on it.
rigid crescent
lol his opinion and whats actually going to happen are very diferent
umbral reef
Wait
earnest harbor
you underestimate his influence, which is why I say he is either going to take over or get thrown out
stone current
no
rigid crescent
youre actually a nutjob lol
meager solstice
What ideas r u even talking about? @earnest harbor
stone current
reminds me of that dude that kept saying extremely eerie things the other day without any thought
earnest harbor
I mean, I'm talking to the echo chamber queens here
rigid crescent
he simply doesnt like db
prisma plover
As if the devs and dev directors are listening to anything that happens here 😂
jade stirrup
anyone familiar with Xbox 360 kinect full body tracking?
languid beacon
I mean if I had the option to turn off all dynamic bones for myself, and no one else would know I did it, I’d turn them off, never tell anyone I did so, and never turn them on, ever.
rigid crescent
then stop talking if you assume you know the outcome?
stone current
download a steamvr kinect tool
rigid crescent
why bother?
stone current
like kinect2vr or driver4vr
jade stirrup
does it work well?
jade stirrup
languid beacon
And my VRChat experience would not be different in any real way except better fps lol
jade stirrup
This guy is using kinect, and it seems fine
stone current
if u want full body tracking its ok but its really bad tracking compared 2 every other tracking system
prisma plover
Kinect is very meh with VRChat. But if you can get one for free or like 10 bucks, sure that could be a fun weekend project.
umbral reef
@ember raptor How are we so sure thats actually from tupper?
stone current
theres a lot of jittery movement and glitchiness
languid beacon
Kinect looks fine to outside observers but the user knows it’s inaccurate and very delayed
stone current
none of which are present if u devote urself to like FBT systems
umbral reef
@earnest harbor Also as a funfact for you- Even IF the devs wanted to change shit. They cant unless there CEO says "oki"
stone current
but yea
ember raptor
@umbral reef somoene ripped his model and I guess that's on it
stone current
well technically not really
ruby burrow
The thing with dynamic bones is that they did absolutely need regulating in some manner. They're literally the source of the myth that the game only ran on one core.
umbral reef
And who says i didnty write that out in 5 mintues on MS paint?
earnest harbor
hardly, do you even know how a buisness is run @umbral reef ?
stone current
The developers are payed to develop the CEO is just kinda management and insight
earnest harbor
if they need CEO approval for every change then no wonder things take so long to impliment
ruby burrow
Since the dy-bones themselves actually are almost entirely single core bound, which is what maxes out your CPU in most instances.
umbral reef
@earnest harbor Beside that im part of 3 start ups right now... Kinda yea.. Id be sure i can call myself quallified to make these claims
ember raptor
I didn't intend to start controversy. I'm simply showing the actual data on my shader so that people don't pitchfork me because tupper said something
stone current
well then ur turning a CEO into like a project manager...
umbral reef
And not everything- If its a bug fix and ect no one is going to inform the CEO
But new systems, big tweaks and ect often have to be confirmed by someone higher up
prisma plover
Usually there's a "main director" or similar rank. That's the dude that decides "Now my little programmer slaves, program this !" I think ?
umbral reef
And as the team is fairly small. it being aproved by the CEO would not cause months of delays or anything close
ruby burrow
For now, the devs have opted for the solution of trying to encourage community self moderation on dy-bone usage, whilst enforcing no hard rules or limits.
stone current
yea they removed a bunch of limits and replaced them with 'very poor'
not the best idea but sure
meager solstice
Limit has only been polys
rigid crescent
what limits
earnest harbor
like I can understand limiting the things, but saying you wants a vrchat with no dbones is absolutely insane
languid beacon
1.) dynamic bones are bad
2.) games like VRChat needs to work well on stand alone headsets if vr is gonna go big
3.) VRChat won’t work on stand alone headsets unless we (the content makers) start optimizing our crap
prisma plover
The avatar performance rating is a step in the right way imo.
umbral reef
@ember raptor Its awesome to do that but might want to start off on a different foot then ;p
Im sure that now you can prove your stuff is great- You can change people there minds. Facts are hard to deny even though this community loves to do that.
Make a blog post about it, share it with him on twitter, make education video's and ect. Thats a way more effective way
rigid crescent
there was only polylimit ....
meager solstice
They just told u ur model was shit and that u “should” fix it ^
ruby burrow
If the community can take this on, and regulate themselves sensibly, then we can continue enjoying them normally.
If we fail to take this seriously, then the devs are simply going to be forced to put in actual restrictions, and add toggles to disable them.
atomic tusk
why does unity lag like hell for me when I have the root of the avatar selected? :/
meager solstice
Particle limit?
stone current
used to be particle limit is
ember raptor
my stuff isn't better than anyone else's it's just not worse
stone current
polygons + maxparticles <= 20,000
atomic tusk
like I can click on hips and no lag at all
stone current
for all active objects
earnest harbor
oh particle tris, yeah only if they're active without a gesture
stone current
then click the armature instead
languid beacon
Close or tab out of inspector tab it makes unity very laggy
It’s basically a debug
stone current
is it the avatar descriptor and inspector combined
prisma plover
Personally I get a massive performance drop in Unity if I had the VRC_avatar_descriptor.
stone current
yea its probably the combination
bc before i add that i dont experience that movement lag
ruby burrow
A few VRC players have apparently contacted the developer of dynamic bones (some lone Chinese guy it seems), with the hope of improving it's performance for multicore and VR usage in particular.
stone current
yea i messaged them too
atomic tusk
looks like it's the avatar descriptor
ruby burrow
I really hope something good can come from it, because it'd be a huge boost to the game.
stone current
all they did was like the message and say 'cool nice ideas'
atomic tusk
I removed it and the pipeline script and no lag
stone current
and didnt ever think about actually implementing them
prisma plover
Yeah maybe remove the avatar descriptor, make your modifications, then add the descriptor back when you are ready to upload
stone current
or just put things on the armature ig
earnest harbor
if only there was a way to make the improvements yourself~
atomic tusk
this wasn't as much as an issue until we went 2017
ruby burrow
It's made me wonder if anyone else can provide a more optimised but visually equal alternative for dy-bones.
stone current
hey how many hrs do trusted users typically have
vocal shard
i have 830
tacit plank
500-1000 I guess
atomic tusk
well I'm sure the japanese community are up to something with dynamic bones
tacit plank
Uploaded maps?
ruby burrow
People seem to be under the illusion that dy-bones are an inherent part of the game provided by the devs, or by Unity itself, when they're not.
atomic tusk
I mean they are working on the vrm model extension
stone current
no actually 30 something
meager solstice
I mean most people Ik never got trusted till around 800+ @stone current
languid beacon
I’m not saying don’t use dynamic bones, or don’t make poor avatars. But at the very least, make all the dynamic bone categories at least medium. Even if something else is poor...
tacit plank
Lol 30, I had that in the first two months I think
stone current
or at least vrchat could offer their own optimized dynamic bone solution
ruby burrow
They're just a poorly optimised third party pluggin that got too popular before anyone realised what it was doing.
stone current
instead of making us rely on someone elses $20 script thing
atomic tusk
my OC avatar has like 23 collision calls at most -_-
vocal shard
i had like 4 avatars uploaded untill they came with the system then i just uploaded 40 shitty ones and added them to a shitty world and uploaded the world too 
ruby burrow
And just suddenly banning it like most scripts was naturally a total non-option for the devs, not without starting a riot.
earnest harbor
almost like some of the mainstream shaders we still use 
meager solstice
I mean vrc could make their own version of dynamic bones and than sell them to us for like 15$
tacit plank
If everybody had "poor" avatars, it still wouldn't be very bad
stone current
or just ship it as part of the SDK...????
tacit plank
But people have "very poor" avatars, which are 5 or 10 times past the usual limits
prisma plover
Speaking of money... do they even generate some ?
stone current
obviously
earnest harbor
nope
stone current
at least from their own people
atomic tusk
dynamic bones are a problem yes but I run into more avatars with 30+ materials
tacit plank
250k polies, 50 materials, 30 meshes, 1200 dynamic bone transforms (despite having only 200 bones), a particle system, etc
atomic tusk
and like 5 skinned mesh renderers...
earnest harbor
they get paid by investors because vrc is a good advertising platform to get people to buy vr headsets
ruby burrow
Yeah. That would be the ideal solution I think, if possible. For VR-Chat to provide it's own custom physics options tailored for the game's needs.
tacit plank
VRChat devs aren't bad coders, but I doubt they can make something like dynamic bones easily
stone current
also another thing i really do not like at all about unity
is how avatar bounding boxes work
vocal shard
caffeine is right
stone current
theyre not really dynamic so i have to make them longer than usual
languid beacon
There is simply an insane amount of personal avatars that are way off the radar: like, very poor is nothing compared to them, they’re 2x, 3x under it
stone current
else when i like stand behind someone for example
they cant see my hands in their face
bc my bounding box isnt long enough
ruby burrow
Yeah. I always stretch my bounding boxes forward dimensions just a little, to avoid arms not being seen if I'm standing behind someone.
stone current
also i kinda wish there was a much easier way
ruby burrow
Only need to add 30cm or so normally. Very small adjustment.
stone current
to set up arm movement duplication
that wouldnt require rigidbodies
just a simple script to copy over all the transforms
bc rn my avatar has a very poor rating just bc it has 4 arms
it literally wouldnt be something difficult to write
atomic tusk
I take the ratings with a grain of salt
stone current
but yea
atomic tusk
if I see a very poor I check to see why it's very poor
languid beacon
Arm duplication is fixed joints no rigid bodies needed
tacit plank
It might be poor. I'm not sure if anyone has benchmarked whatever components you're using
atomic tusk
until some people who would be all like "Very Poor Avatar!*automatically blocks"
languid beacon
Why do you need constraints
atomic tusk
unlike*
stone current
a fixed joint is a constraint .. . .
meager solstice
Just throwing this out there if vrc doesn’t win best VR game on steam I’ll be a bit disappointed
languid beacon
joints have them built in
stone current
tacit plank
You can have excellent "very poor" avatars which are being punished for a snail marker bounding box
stone current
. . . . .
vocal shard
vrchat and pavlov are the only good vr games so yea i'd be dissapointed too
languid beacon
What are you doing with the rigid body
stone current
i just told u
how u gonna use constraints without using rigidbodies
theres literally no other way to use fixed joints
languid beacon
What are you using the constraints for ?!
stone current
ur literally impossible to understand
tacit plank
But most of the "very poor" avatars are actually poor, and even multiple times higher than what's reasonable
ruby burrow
@atomic tusk I entirely agree.
languid beacon
Are you making some kind of rag doll thing or just copying your arm?
tacit plank
Both I think
stone current
a fixed joint is a constraint
how u gonna use constraints without using rigidbodies
https://i.gyazo.com/db09cfa5b4198f0a3edf8986ac406d3d.png
to set up arm movement duplication
bc rn my avatar has a very poor rating just bc it has 4 arms
atomic tusk
I'm actually pretty lenient with dynamic bones but I'll block avatars with metric craptons of materials :/
stone current
i have 76 rigidbodies
ruby burrow
Ratings aren't an end all thing. Not everyone HAS to be in good or medium at all times. There's plenty of room to enjoy over the top and more cost heavy stuff.
But it provides a great tool for informing people of what they cost, and showing area's of needless waste.
iron seal
I need the one material inside my head, sorry
tacit plank
Yeah. A friend of mine uses 1k textures for constant colors.. That can be done with 1 pixel in an atlas
stone current
my models have 4-5 materials
tacit plank
He likely didn't make it himself though
stone current
not his problem
ruby burrow
There's a difference between an artfully created avatar that's unable to fit within the better ratings, and a common avatar that needlessly has wasteful stats.
stone current
just dont upload the avatar or put at least some effort into shitting out something thats not as bad performance-wise
lapis nebula
How do I do the hand gestures to activate custom animations in desktop mode ?
ruby burrow
Materials honestly are quite rarely the major factor though.
atomic tusk
almost all my models have one material
tacit plank
The avatar looks great. But he could reduce the materials from 40 to like 4 without any problems
stone current
its on the docs but its LShift/RShift and F1-F8
atomic tusk
but I do have some with 3 at most showing all the time
ruby burrow
They're a factor that's the most easily fixable, but they're no where near as cost heavy.
atomic tusk
and the rest have materials hidden behind animations
lapis nebula
damn, this keyboard has weird F keys
languid beacon
Yeah I have people who actively berate me for giving them atlased models
stone current
what
lapis nebula
it's a laptop and has other controls on the F keys
like, for screen brightness and all that shizzle
and volume
atomic tusk
atlasing is easier than ever
lapis nebula
do I have to press FN and Shift then ?
atomic tusk
cats doesn't use that crappy raytracing atlas anymore
lapis nebula
just the left shift and the F key ?
languid beacon
I have seen huge hostility toward optimization, especially atlasing and bone merging.
lapis nebula
hmmm, I will give it a go
languid beacon
People are weird
atomic tusk
I need shiney skin!
stone current
i kinda wished atlasting for material combiner wasnt terrible tho
lapis nebula
@languid beacon how long did it take for you to work that out, lol
stone current
its ok but it leaves a lot of blank space, the resolutions change the space used on the atlas, and it only atlases the diffuse
and it also gives u no name option
ruby burrow
The most common culprits for avatars that have no need or reason to be rated poor, are materials and meshes.
Dy-bones are the slightly more awkward factor since people feel like they have to sacrifice something to improve on it.
atomic tusk
the filesize is like twice as big as manual atlas
opaque hawk
Yo the newest atlasing plugin for cats is really sick. That’s my $.02
stone current
yea bc of the fact that theres empty space in the atlas and also the resolutions are exact
atomic tusk
I'm just glad I forced myself to learn manual atlas
stone current
as long as u can just move all the UVs into their own corners
languid beacon
When someone got mad at me for turning in a model with 3 materials and demanded I send them the 100+ material version. So I sent it to them with none of the materials created or applied, just all the textures. They gave up lol
stone current
u should be fine
atomic tusk
my 4k atlases do have blank space most of the time
stone current
ik
opaque hawk
People really like adjusting the albedo color
atomic tusk
but I lose alot of quality if I go 2k
languid beacon
Look into uv packing but honestly a lossless atlas with empty space is still way better than a non-atlased model
atomic tusk
so I just compress my 4k atlas with a compressor and then crunch it in unity
ruby burrow
People do get very lazy with the material colour options in Unity.
It doesn't even look good. Washes out the actual textures horribly. >_>;
stone current
i just usually dont even use the atlas tool
atomic tusk
my biggest atlas is like 5 megs outside of crunch
stone current
i select the materials and move the submesh UVs into their own spots
and bake diffuse and normal maps
ruby burrow
For me the 4 and 8 material count for the excellent and good ratings is a very nice amount. Allows a plenty fair balance of easy modification vs optimisation.
atomic tusk
there's some of us that think 1 material should be excellent
ruby burrow
Is enough to keep all major features distinct, whilst allowing for simpler to work on details.
Perhaps, but I don't think it needs to go that far.
Can't always do everything with only one shader.
opaque hawk
It’s kind of nice knowing I can split up materials a little bit. I started making avatars with 2D animation on some of their textures
rigid crescent
wtb ranking weighting
ruby burrow
He's not saying more. Just to change how the overall ranking works.
earnest harbor
you mean make it work? please....
rigid crescent
what...
ruby burrow
So that rather than only rating via the worst stat, even if everything else is excellent, it would take a combined sum of all categories to offer a more realistic estimate of performance cost.
ruby needle
erm.
ruby burrow
Is that not what you meant? '-'
ruby burrow
It sort of works, but the issue is that it currently inspires more hostility than it should, and also isn't as accurately representative as it could be.
tiny ginkgo
I can't say if the system works or not (based on what i've heard it doesn't) but it's a good step to get people to optimize their avatars which is 100% required
rigid crescent
That's a good thing. If the system properly worke,d it would properly point out people actually causing excess lag
earnest harbor
I love having 100 avatars uploaded, 931 hours, 23 blocks against me and ranked known 👌
rigid crescent
If it worked it would have that support.
tiny ginkgo
It just needs to be more.. optimized itself
ruby burrow
No one should be taking the stance of, "You're poor so I block you" (not that barely anyone actually is...)
And an overall rating only by the worst stat is both inaccurate a poor way of motivating people.
But it does offer really useful insights, and has created a lot of good educational conversations.
rigid crescent
And this system doesn't need the support of anyone to begin with. It simply supposed to point otu what is and isn't optimimzed. Currently it does aVery Poor job of that.
It only helps people that are somewhat knowledgeable. Most likely the people who have an issue with it to begin with.
ruby burrow
A lot of my friends have dramatically improved the performance of their avatars with zero compromises needed, and now understand the costs much better.
rigid crescent
Right now that is.
It's mocked and fought agianst because it's not weighted
Everyone just shows up as Very Poor whether or not you deserve it.
ruby burrow
@brisk bone If the community isn't able to regulate itself, the only remaining option is hard limits.
vocal shard
do shaders even get counted into the system
ruby burrow
No one wants that.
rigid crescent
With proper weighting, avatars will actually show a more accurate rating.
@vocal shard nope that's pretty hard to do
ruby burrow
Shaders don't because they can't be effectively rated.
ruby needle
the weighting wont be easy to do either tho
a single light source can be very hungry. so you need to weigh that a lot more then having a few materials more
vocal shard
oh so then the whole performance thing is very useless if you put a badly optimized shader on it nice
rigid crescent
"useless" not everyone does that though, so no it's not
Yeah FPaul. I'm not under the illusion that weighting would be easy at all, but it would absolutely be worth it and make people take it more seriously.
ruby needle
i think the easiest first implementation would be a score based system
where each component adds x to the score
ruby burrow
Not useless at all. Will never be perfect, but it helps a lot.
torn nebula
For things like dynbones and cloth I'd actually like to see cpu rationing myself. Give everyone equal cpu time, if your avatar is slow and a particular client is overloaded, it'll end up getting a lower update rate
ruby needle
easy said
ruby burrow
I was talking to a new friend literally just last night, about the 30+ meshes on his avatar. Discussed how to fix it, and how easily he could get his avatar from very poor to good with less than an hours work.
rigid crescent
Yeah that's what I had in mind also. SImple scoring would be a great way to test run it. THere's just no reason being Excellent in all but one category should put you to the lowest category, especially when it's something like polycount, audio sources or (a reasonable number of) particles
torn nebula
It's not too hard. Measure how long the average of the last N updates took, then use a token bucket throttle to decide if they get an update this frame
ruby burrow
His was very very nearly in the excellent category just as it was, spare that one inefficiency he had no idea was even a problem before this system.
vocal shard
Anime avatars are boring.
👌👌
stone current
look at my score lol
earnest harbor
just wait until your rank itself is weighted on average avatar score
stone current
rigid crescent
The main issue with this is that the lack of optimization, to some degree, is VRC's fault. I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but they knew about a lot of issues that they only spoke up about a few months ago.
but they can only fix thier mistake now, they're just doing a bad job
earnest harbor
I have my single poly avatar ready for that day 👌
umbral oracle
Give everyone 5ms per frame to use as they wish?
ruby burrow
Also, most shaders aren't too different on performance cost, and are more GPU heavy than CPU heavy, so less likely to be the bottlenecking factor.
There's just a few that are bad enough to be a major problem.
earnest harbor
like a particular fur shader?
umbral oracle
Well shaders are allowed to define multiple passes (draw calls) and some...abuse that to an extent
earnest harbor
or specialized malicious shaders..
umbral oracle
XSFur does it in 1-2
torn nebula
@umbral oracle well it should ideally be scaled by the number of other players, and the availability of cpu time. If you're at open mic night and all your friends have low load avatars then why shouldn't you be able to use lots of cpu to show off? Basically this is the problem domain of cpu scheduling algorithms
ruby burrow
@stone current That menu is a lot easier to read if you temporarily move the tab up top when uploading. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/419194788085235722/530128763716108298/29281695909201c6a0439aee3de11388.png
rigid crescent
To a degree the situation we're in is their fault.
ruby burrow
Some fur shaders are awful. Others are surprisingly efficient.
rigid crescent
People got comfortable doing the minimum work, there was no "social stigma" for an unoptimized avatar to keep people in check during the earlier popular days
Then suddenly they're like "oh shit we should be telling them to optimize shouldn't we?...." even though there's a VRCats article by tupper on the same shit they have in their optimization guide that we barely got towards the end of the year? and his thread is from like november of last year
earnest harbor
it doesn't help that we got a performance boost followed with a system that eats performance and gave us less performance than we had before
rigid crescent
I'm not saying we'd be in 2 Dynamic Bone Paradise or anything if we knew earlier, but we'd be in a much, much better spot.
ruby burrow
True. It's something that sort of needed to be addressed from the start, but at the time was obviously a secondary concern to generating content and user interaction in general.
rigid crescent
I think it's both people's fault, except one party was very knowledgeable about the issues and the others were a bunch of teens and young adults trying to make an anime girl and following random unofficial guides on youtube
earnest harbor
theres also the fact that info for vrc "optimization" isn't exactly easy to find
rigid crescent
There's also the misconceptions of "well I don't lag with my 5000 transform avatar when im with friends! we get FOURTY-FIVE FPS
ruby burrow
The knowledge base was far far more limited in the past, and if more professional standards were expected, it would have impacted the games growth.
Though who knows, perhaps a slower growth would have helped the game overall, even if it meant me not knowing about it yet. '-'
Lol. True.
You see that so often. "My avatar doesn't cause any lag at all (when used solo in my home room). It's only when 20 other people turn up that I lag, therefore it's ALL their fault."
rigid crescent
That's not true at all, there's plenty of creators that make optimized things now that they know, and I have no doubt more wouldve done so a year ago if they knew. It would've been more of "the norm" to do as well
ruby burrow
But it's good that the community is now gradually realising that having 30k polygons isn't the issue. Having 40 materials, 20 meshes or 200 dy-bones definitely is.
rigid crescent
It's just that there was so little information on this stuff despite the team obviously having a wealth of it
well beg to differ, because had optimization been the norm, it's what more people would've wanted. It raises the bar.
Just like how people were paying TONS of money for even the slightest custom avatars a year ago and now you can get an MMD import for like 20 bucks
Yes there's people charging a lot for very little, but back then it seemed to jsut be the norm that an MMD with a few edits would be 50 bucks or even more
ruby burrow
I know plenty of creators who are now taking a new interest and personal pride in doing things properly, regarding optimisation.
Social drama aside, this has been hugely positive.
rigid crescent
Just a poor generalization really.
yeah, there's been an influx of open minded people that, now that they know about optimization, are doing their part
woven steppe
sup
ruby burrow
Sup
woven steppe
optimization talk on the menu today I see
rigid crescent
Exactly my point. Why not throw this info out back in January if they knew it?
Even assuming the boom was so bad they couldn't be assed to type up some articles, why not before summer?
umbral reef
There was never a need for it...
rigid crescent
My whole issue isn't jsut that they didn't do it, but they knew optimization was problem partially on the user's side and did nothing to try and fix it
Clean this up, add a few videos, throw it on the officail website. Boom, you've got actual information.
umbral reef
During the big talent shows-
But i got the same worse fps with 30 people thenw ith 20 right now...
ruby burrow
Well part of his point is that the sooner a culture of caring about optimisation was fostered, the less people would have gone off the rails when it was brought up later.
vocal shard
So guys, debating like there’s no tomorrow, as usual
ruby burrow
Though I also made that point about how the game was far more desperate for content and user engagement back at that stage.
rigid crescent
i'm guessing the FPS issues not being as bad back then was due to really, really lax security, but that's just hearsay really.
vocal shard
Usual
rigid crescent
(compared to the just normal lax security we have now of course)
umbral reef
@rigid crescent If it still takes to much work peeps wont do it
Same goes for when its hard to find information (aka it doesnt get shown on a golden plate but requires a google search... People within this community cant google good ya know 👀 )
ruby burrow
Setting the bar too high that early could have significantly hampered people getting into the craft.
umbral reef
That is true squish
rigid crescent
It wasn't a high bar, even now optimization is simply a suggestion
i'm not saying implement hard limits, just make some effort to inform the communtiy
ruby burrow
Also people back then simply weren't abusing certain features as badly.
severe lily
You need at minimum three passes for a shader to be lit properly.
You need a forward base pass, a forward add pass, and a shadowcasting pass.
If you do not have these, then your shader is not lit properly.
These passes can be and will be disabled if the requirements aren't met to make them active.
I.E. the Add pass will only be active if you have more than one Directional light, or any point/Spot lights hitting you. They need to be realtime.
Shadowcasting pass will only be active if Unity needs the depth buffer for something, or, if there is a realtime light with shadows(obviously)
Forward base will always be active, it includes the main directional light, and sampling light probes from baked lighting.
There are legit other use cases for passes though, that don't involve lighting. For instance you may want to do Outlines without using a geometry shader - my toon shader has that option to generate an extra pass for that.
The thing is, not all passes are created equally. They don't all take x time to run. The outline pass for instance is super cheap, it doesn't do anything other than take the mesh, invert normals, color it a solid color, and expand it. That's it.
As for the VRC devs knowing about optimization, why do you think they did? The platform started as a dorm room project.
They knew just as much back then as a majority of people know when starting, more than likely.
ruby burrow
Far fewer people knew how to set up a single collider, let alone go to the hassle of setting up every conceivable surface of their avatars to excessively collide.
rigid crescent
A year ago there's no way they didn't know. Tupper mentions optimization somewhat in his video (when merging bones), and he wrote that informational post as well
If a community manager (that might not have been hired yet but was at least influential enough to be hired) knew, you don't think actual devs did?
umbral reef
Tbh- Now i read back what i said
I maybe should make more clear what i meant
When i started all avatars where less complex. The average avatar now is leaps more impresive in any way then most of the average stuff a year ago.
As the tools and knowledge grew the avatars also did.
woven steppe
Yo... rip my legacy animations
umbral reef
And I alteast am talking about a year back.
Havent beenw ith the game longer to say anyting before that time so i cant and wont
rigid crescent
DB being the main (or most widespread) issue currently hasn't changed much, unless it got worse. People were throwing their pirated DB script on literally every piece of hair, which was rarely merged, then slapping dozens of colliders on it.
grim canopy
Hello Everyone! It’s Raven 🤗
vocal shard
Hi Raven, I’m Dad, and I’m going out for cigarettes
umbral reef
Eyo raven
rigid crescent
I'm not saying they should've know from day 1 they were going to just explode in userbase, but even after that happened and died down, there was little to no documentation on optimization.
vocal shard
Dash, you posted that in #vrchat-general-2
rigid crescent
Exactly, because no one knew about it as an issue.
vocal shard
I mean #vrchat-general-1
rigid crescent
DB was an issue...
It was never not an issue. It never didn't cause lag.
again, it's documented in the VRCats post
Yes, because they were'nt informed about it. They didn't know enough to know it was an issue.
ruby burrow
I always knew that stuff like DB was naturally going to be cost heavy, simply because it's real time physics. That applies to literally any game.
What I didn't realise in the past was the way it bottlenecks on a single core.
umbral reef
@ruby burrow not that is was /this/ bad or unoptimized in the end though...
rigid crescent
The usage of DB is what's gotten worse and that's simply because more people are maknig their own avatars, and obviously it's heavily pirated meaning basically everyone has it at this point.
ruby burrow
I've always been relatively restrained in using it just where I felt I needed it or it provided good value. Though I never optimised my bones for using it best either.
Recently took my main avatar from 100 transforms, down to 48.
And built a "Lite" version of it that has only 15 transforms.
rigid crescent
Polygon/Tri count in VRChat currently has very little to do with performance. The bottleneck is currently in CPU, which means that draw calls (material count/unmerged meshes) and Dynamic Bones are usually the main culprits.
From the VRCats thread. Again, it was a known issue. THere's literally no excuse you can throw out that can justify the lack of information we got.
woven steppe
Welp... another example why I lament the fact that visitors can't upload stuff...
ruby burrow
Which I'll note is one of the reasons why a weighted ranking system will help.
ruby needle
steam login does with a merged account
but a steam account doesnt
you can merge your steam acount to a vrchat account tho
rigid crescent
You need a VRChat account to upload your own avatars, otherwise you ahve to use avatars from worlds @vocal shard But you can merge your Steam account into a "real" VRChat account. there's some instructions on the website
ruby needle
login to your steam account and go to the settings menue
there should be a button that should tell you everything else
vocal shard
It does tell ya everything else
ruby burrow
Taking my avatar from 100 to 48, roughly halved the cost of it's physics. But it wasn't enough to take it from poor to medium.
Meaning for many players whilst it's a plenty relevant improvement, there's little outside motivation to actually bother with such optimisation efforts.
rigid crescent
The main reason more people weren't against excessive DB usage is because more people didn't know it was an issue. I didn't until like October, because I had never once heard that until I saw Tupper in a Friends+ and got roasted for having like 120 transforms .
No it's not
umbral reef
Tbh i still dont get why they dont write more blogs instead of streams and video's
rigid crescent
Even if it's hard, does that mean make no attempt whatsoever?
This information, for a lot of people, is still new due to us barely getting anythnig official until November 2018
ruby burrow
A weighted system will help provide slightly better incentive to make improvements where ever possible, even if only slight. Rather than people only focusing on the worst stuff and writing it off as not possible.
woven steppe
What Mic's saying is pretty similar to what I've wanted to have organic in the game... An actual proper tutorial to do everything properly...
umbral reef
Its more engaging and ect but making a video or streaming should take soo much more time
rigid crescent
That's a really poor attempt at devil's advocate Fez. What could possibly in any realm of reality be SO severe that they couldn't even expand upon an a series of posts Tupper made in November of 2017, knowledge they knew was an issue?
My point exactly Squishy. You've got avatars with nothing but Good/Excellent across the board, what I'd consider "normal social avatars" for lack of a better term that are Poor or Very Poor due to DB.
grim canopy
So Question Fellow VRChat Gamers
vocal shard
Is this about our credit cards?
tacit plank
Dynamic bones is really bad for performance
grim canopy
Which VR Bundle Do You Recommend me Getting Off Amazon??? 🤔
vocal shard
Does Tupp need the 3 digits on the back?
woven steppe
I just want to have the avatar rating system be live update.
coarse wyvern
Why can I type in events?? 🤔
tacit plank
There has been a huge raise in poorly performing avatars, users with dynamic bones, and VR users all at once. When people mainly used desktop, it was harder to tell that dynamic bones caused lag
vocal shard
You can type in events, it’s revolutionary I know
ruby burrow
@grim canopy Right now the recommendations I give most people, is to get either WMR or a Vive. Depending on their interest in other games, and such.
ruby needle
the biggest issue with dynamic bones is colliders
hasty wedge
it takes 4 months per update and u want to waste the next 4 month for a avatar performance update 
coarse wyvern
I used a Samsung oddessy
ruby needle
and a crap ton of users using big numbers for clipping prevention or what not
grim canopy
Occulas, Lonovos?
coarse wyvern
Speaking of a Samsung oddest does anyone know how to do gestures with a Samsung oddessy
tacit plank
I agree. I can see why you'd have one in your hand to touch your tits, but if you need 10 to stop your hair from clipping into your body.. Remake the hair or something
rigid crescent
If your choice is between Oculus Rift and Lenovo, I'd go Rift, but make sure you run a VR Test on your PC.
ruby burrow
WMR is a reasonable substitute right now for it's low price, simply because whatever VR offerings are just over the horizon are very unknown.
tacit plank
I keep seeing avatars with 100s of dynamic bones. That's more bones than some of my models even have
rigid crescent
4 months per update lol what
umbral reef
@brisk bone Thats tbh something id love to know and might bet he reason they are doing the way they do stuff now this way...
rigid crescent
we got 2017 in, what, november? Then before that we got one i already forgot about in like October
tacit plank
There has probably been 30+ updates since I started playing
grim canopy
Is there an adapter for full body tracking for the rift and Lonovo explorer Bundle?
woven steppe
Been a "too many that I can't be bothered to count" amount of updates since this time last year...
tacit plank
Started 374 days ago
rigid crescent
Not all of them have been major ones obviously, but definitely not 1 major update per 4 months
umbral reef
I was yes
rigid crescent
I mean we've already been told this "Development Cycle" is optimization focused, so we'll probably be seeing more of that since that's really one of the bigger issues.
And not just optimization on our end, but theirs as well once the IK mess is sorted
ruby burrow
There was a slow period that people got antsy over whilst the Unity version upgrade was being worked on. Other than that dev speed has felt plenty normal to me. At least considering the thousands of dev hours that crashers and hackers are wasting.
rigid crescent
There was a post on Reddit from I think Ron talking about UI changes in January
ruby burrow
Script kiddies literally costing the game thousands of dollars in time spent policing badly behaved children.
rigid crescent
"policing" what policing? 
the reddit posts were before the current UI changes, so there's a chance they were just pushed up and we already got them
and it was an offhanded comment by Ron (i think) and not so much of a full on announcement
ruby burrow
Okay, perhaps not policing. But people still need to man those support emails and check those twitch clips.
rigid crescent
the hand menu and the main menu changes as well
ruby burrow
And the security work.
rigid crescent
can confirm video clips don't matter. Sitting on an older-than-a-month report with video and output log of a logout client users that i see somewhat regularly.
ruby burrow
Other than that I guess it's a community watch scheme. ._.
meager solstice
i think they will have a bigger ui change
rigid crescent
Hi. CCO of VRChat here. Thanks for the suggestion. The VRChat UI is still pretty temporary. We have an art director and design team. They have some really cool concepts in the works. We have some other things to get done ahead of a full UI refresh. Expect a major update in early 2019 or sooner. The idea to post to the canny was a good one https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests Maybe good at some point to start a larger discussion of what the community would like to see in a UI update.
Oh maybe it was after the UI changes then, it's from "4 months ago"
August 31st.
meager solstice
i mean early 2019 it is
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Well- There are content creators who made jumpscare avatars in public...
Fairly sure if i did that shit and got reported id be outie into banned land
rigid crescent
I mean, have you seen the Dot avatar?
vocal shard
i search for the pewdiepie avatar and one adventure time
rigid crescent
It's a racist caricature of a banned user that's actively memed with in front of and totally not by Tupper. People get away with things if they're special.
umbral reef
Yea
rigid crescent
Not that it bothers or offends me (or Dot afaik) but it's something that normally wouldn't be allowed.
tacit plank
I don't like vague rules and favorism, especially not in a community which feels strict to begin with
rigid crescent
If you haven't seen it, it's a Fennec with a green card in a "carrot and stick" style piece that can push a lawnmower as a gesture and it plays mexican music
latent sorrel
i cant find that specific avatar god damnit
rigid crescent
I mean I think it's hilarious, but people have been banned for a lot less than that, can confirm that much.
umbral reef
Tbh shit like this does bother me with the amount of unfair bans that happened
quartz basin
You don't get banned if you're a decent human being~
rigid crescent
While I agree that context does matter and this was absolutely all in good fun, and the person being made fun of is most likely cool with it and thinks it's funny as well, you've got tons of people being banned for similar things
umbral reef
@quartz basin neat meme
tacit plank
Are there any documented unfair bans?
I often hear "banned for no reason" but you never know with those people
rigid crescent
that FAT bait from Sails lol 🎣
quartz basin
👌
rigid crescent
I mean again, racist caricatures are totally OK and used by VRChat employees but people also get banned for memeing in hitler and other poor taste avatars
tacit plank
Political things are a no go though, they're at least clear about that
As for what things are "racist", I'm not sure who's the judge on that or how strict they are
rigid crescent
THe judge are the staff and how strict they are depends on who's doingi t
quartz basin
What isn't political in today's environment?
rigid crescent
If it's friends? Totally ok? randoms/people they don't like? not ok
Pretty simple.
tacit plank
Maybe they think that even the knuckles went too far, but they're obviously not going to ban something so popular. If they banned knuckles a year ago they would have half the users now at best
How so?
umbral reef
How is knuckle in its core bad though?
tacit plank
I might have missed something
ruby burrow
I did enjoy when I saw a Hitler/KKK avatar walk into a room in front of Zarni, and was then removed in under 30 seconds.
The very casual "nope" reaction, of everyone in the room.
rigid crescent
I mean really, do you think I'd get away totally free with an avatar that has an anime person pushing a lawnmower while chasing a green card on a stick while mexican music plays?
tacit plank
Knuckles are terrible avatars, but as much as I hate them, they're not doing anything wrong, with the exception of them often being underage players
quartz basin
Some people actually wanted to brand the knuckles meme as racist since you make "fun" of african people.
tacit plank
I'd argue that shouldn't be endorsed by the staff
But knuckles aren't racist, they're just dumb and bad taste
umbral reef
@quartz basin That happened after the fact though...
Its legit two memes combined...
quartz basin
That's the point. People see racism in the most dumb shit and try to ban it.
rigid crescent
Fez, there's "slip ups" like making an off color joke in public and then there's a publicly available avatar of a racist caricature
that was used by at least one member of staff and possibly moderators as well.
tacit plank
Making fun of a disease, giving 12 year olds a reason to literally spit into their microphones, etc. Worst VRChat meme by far
atomic tusk
clicking noises
umbral reef
Tbh i still dont see how knuckle is racist
Might be because of sinterklaas that i see normal bad things not bad unless you say or act bad...
quartz basin
Mostly the accent of "Why are you running".
Again, people flip their shit for the most mundane bananas.
hasty wedge
tfw ppl assign wuts racist without being race
umbral reef
That is still a movie quote properly mimicd...
rigid crescent
Honestly, I just want transparency and honestly, but that's, unironically, a lot to ask.
umbral reef
I can see why that is bad but at the same time...
rigid crescent
and fairness above all
tacit plank
Fairness is important
rigid crescent
Freedom, Beauty, Truth, and Love 👌
quartz basin
I can't even see why it's bad. If people lose their shit because of simple jokes then oh boy are we in for a treat.
atomic tusk
it was only funny for a week
tacit plank
But the whole aim, for me at least, is to have fun and enjoy oneself. Strictness kills enjoyment
vocal shard
we've been in for a treat for a while now
atomic tusk
if even that
rigid crescent
To me, fairness is the main thing I want.
umbral reef
Same tbh
I dont care about communication and shit if things are atleast consistent.
And then i mean with bans, punishment, explanations and ect
tacit plank
But there isn't a lot of transparency, so it's hard to know if a ban was fair, or if it even happened
We can only really tell when an alt account comes in here to complain
rigid crescent
Yeah, it's been a problem amongst a lot of friend groups as well. People are afraid to speak out and engage in any conflict whatosver, even when it's beneficial conflict that could result in something positive, because it's "drama". People involved in the game in any capacity, whether it be favorite golden boy/girl streamers, popular content creators, or early adopters are afraid to speak out using their reach for similar reasons, and because they'd lose the benefits they've got.
tacit plank
I speak my mind, which sometimes frightens people
rigid crescent
lol not that irrelevant trust system dribble, I hope
umbral reef
Just look at this discord part of the community for that mic...
Its not like most of there fears are unfound
rigid crescent
It's nothing but a "performance helper" at this point.
umbral reef
Same goes for ingame, people dont get these fears for fun...
dark wadi
not sure consistent is possible with humans. Just allow literally everything and rely on community self policing stat like gamerscore and let individuals set own tolerance thresholds heh
tacit plank
But isn't it also good? If I say something good, you will know that I mean it. No need for lies and "hidden meanings"
umbral reef
@brisk bone If i have to spend anything more then 20% of my game time to moderate other users so i can play im not playing a game.
vocal shard
tacit plank
Stay away from psychopaths, be wary of sociopaths
dark wadi
Lol this game made me regain my faith in humanity
tacit plank
This game has a lot of cool people btw, but you will meet the bad ones if you hang out with the bad ones.
Stay around toxic people with crash guns or hacked clients, and that's all you will meet
rigid crescent
lol I never don't speak my mind, especially when there's unfairness or hypocrisy involved and that's gotten me into a lot of trouble since I was a kid literally up to this point, in varying degrees.
Only socially ingame obviously
night lark
guys i have rin i can make sound board
rigid crescent
Do it for the greater good
thorny nacelle
Awkward question, anyone want to talk on VRChat? I don't really know many people lol
rigid crescent
Is there something wrong with blocking? Other than it messing up. You confuse not being able to speak your thoughts with the fact other people have thoughts too, and your thoughts, just like mine, may not always be correct
No one thinks that's the case? The fact that I agree on you that there shoudl be a visible block list sorta shatters your whole preconception there doesn't it?
Everyone here has their own opinion on things, we disagree a lot. I'm one of the few people that couldn't care less about the trust system and don't think it's impacted much, meanwhile people like Rokk have, literally, the opposite opinion
But when you say things like that it kinda makes it just seem like you don't like when multiple people disagree with you
or rather, when a large group of people disagree with you.
There's times where you (not you specifically) are wrong though, and your belief , something people get mixed up with their opinion, is just flat out wrong
I mean we're all outsiders looking in on these different situations really, it's just from different point of views. Sometimes we see the same thing even when looking from a different point of view though
Like outside of the constant pinging of the API, I'm not sure why there isn't a visible block list.
which might be the issue for all I know, but a lot of the API things I know are second-hand information from people that actually know what they're talking about
Yeah, it's easily replaceable with just on/off switches since there's no real way to differentiate a "good" user from a "bad" user, all it really seems to do is mark longtime players and no-lifers like me lol
ignoring the fact that, in my experience, he most problematic users are Trusted ranked
Pretty much the top offenders
covert linden
Seems like youve only been to horrible worlds
Ive only been to good public worlds for the most part, never been crashed either but I also dont go much. But its how I met my group I have now
I go to the murder map, amusement park map which gets people from time to time tooo. and tbe madcatt
torn nebula
the public worlds where japanese speakers (no, not Japan Shrine) hang out are super chill turns out
problem is you kinda need to speak japanese
vocal shard
those japanese worlds are the best kind of people
they all seem so nice, but then again i can't understand most of them
torn nebula
I've had decent luck with werewolf <targets> publics too
vocal shard
werewolf is where i had gotten my first group
torn nebula
it's a bit of a dice roll but usually the worst that happens is someone who's not invested in the game
queen mango
There is kohack's Tsubokura world, which is still being used by people.
torn nebula
people are used to mutes in vrchat in general 😃
queen mango
@brisk bone Just say "konnichiwa" and "genkidesu" and you'll be fine
vocal shard
newer people arent used to it that much usually
queen mango
..if they don't push further that is..
torn nebula
just, if you're going to a japanese world, generally avoid avatars with sounds, they tend to disapprove of noisy/disruptive avatars in general
vocal shard
oh so like every normal human being
jade stirrup
Just ordered ocolus rift 😁
spice mason
welcome to the club
jade stirrup
Thank you 😁
vocal shard
congrats on your 400 buck dlc
torn nebula
@vocal shard pretty much, but I think the tolerance level is a bit lower (though, they'll probably just passive-aggressively block your avatar)
spice mason
only spent 350 for mine!
twin jacinth
Now you just need 300 more for the second dlc!
spice mason
ouch
twin jacinth
Norge ka faen i helvete
twin jacinth
ugreit
jade stirrup
Skål
twin jacinth
skål
queen mango
jade stirrup
🙌
torn nebula
@brisk bone what's wrong with TTS users? apart from long delays when you're trying to talk to them
twin jacinth
Ooof fucking hell 3 Norwegian here is rare
that's like once a year rare
queen mango
Still more common occurence than meeting up with a single Filipino
More and more of them are starting to get into the game, however they're still few and far between
vocal shard
i dislike TTS, just don't like a robotic voice and delays
torn nebula
For some reason in Japan TTS let's plays are super common, I wonder if the tolerance level is higher there
jade stirrup
@twin jacinth 😂🙌
umbral reef
@queen mango your PFP looks like a shark for me 
dont know why
torn nebula
heck there are TTS TRPG replay series ¯_(ツ)_/¯
queen mango
It may have to do with the angle 
torn nebula
you might be thinking of the yukkuri voice, but there's a bunch of other popular ones these days
spice mason
TTS would be more relevant i f it were MMD
serene reef
Just combined accounts and it deleted everything on my steam one
queen mango
My PFP looks like a blended picture frame tbh..
Yea... the colors don't help either, even though she's a neko
So yeah, PFP's as confusing as its avatar's gender
twin jacinth
TTS isn't bad
don't know why people hate it more than mutes
Or dislikes it, is the right word
tiny ginkgo
Good evening lovelies
queen mango
tiny ginkgo
queen mango
Anyways, it may have to do with the fact that many known TTS programs are generally used for memeing
tiny ginkgo
How are you all this wonderful evening?
elfin badge
tiny ginkgo
Second time for what?
queen mango
Second time he's begging for people to interact with him
errant vault
Oh
tiny ginkgo
We all do right?
queen mango
Yea.
tacit plank
Can't deny
tiny ginkgo
I hope he finds someone then..
Have you got people on here or on VRC you consider true friends?
thorny nacelle
I'm sitting in presentation room alone because im too awkward to socialize lol
tiny ginkgo
I'll join you if you want
vocal shard
Better than socializing in real life
tiny ginkgo
We could all three get in there
umbral reef
We hugging and stuff?
tiny ginkgo
And just look at other
umbral reef
Ow wait plaiyng the game- Thats boring
thorny nacelle
Im trying to get over my anxiety- The furthest ive got was sitting in the corner
tiny ginkgo
And hug
vocal shard
My computer isn't plugged in since I had to work on a different one
queen mango
Or just.. stand there, in my case..
queen mango
Since I don't have arms
tiny ginkgo
We don't play, we sit in corners now
thorny nacelle
Im trying to doodle in the corner but this guy wont stop pressing the clear button
umbral reef
Counts as playing
tiny ginkgo
Haha
thorny nacelle
I mean it'd be cool if i could make friends lol , but im too anxious to join a convo
tiny ginkgo
Did you ask someone from here?
thorny nacelle
?
thorny nacelle
I asked earlier if anyone wanted to chat- but i guess some drama or something was going on
tiny ginkgo
Yeah that happens quite a lot
queen mango
What sort of drama?
thorny nacelle
I just wanna get the email so i can upload my avatar lol
opinions? i dunno? i didnt pay attention
tiny ginkgo
But I'm serious, add me on VRC if you want. I'll find you and we can have casual small talk
I don't bite much
thorny nacelle
You don't have to deal with me if you dont wanna ; d
quartz basin
Do not listen to Nassachi. He is a predator.
tiny ginkgo
Wah
queen mango
thorny nacelle
Ill be right back-
tiny ginkgo
Like many others. It's alright.
But you could have gone a more gentle route.. Predator is a little too real when you think of this online environment
umbral reef
Nass isnt a content creator yea!
tiny ginkgo
I tried today actually.. DA overwhelmed me
I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can get going
I feel extra bullied tonight
Isn't that against the rules?
It's one of the reasons I'm on this Discord, yea
You shouldn't mingle with non creator predators
I guess you don't read the chat
The answer is no. If I were you I'd try to meet people in game, they are online already
I don't need the spotlight, but if someone wants it I'll help them with it ❤
Try to go online @vocal shard and go to a few busy worlds, you can find people and just try to talk to them. Most are very friendly
Try The Great Pug. Find a group of people, listen to their conversation and if it sounds interesting just try and say hi
Um sure I do but..
I mostly read visual novels
And chat
vocal shard
Oh
vocal shard
Vrc seems boring
lapis nebula
Hardly
tiny ginkgo
It is what you make it love
thorny nacelle
Back
lapis nebula
I couldn’t call VRChat boring if I tried
tiny ginkgo
It's not a game game
lapis nebula
It’s a social environment
thorny nacelle
I don't find VRC boring ;w;
tiny ginkgo
Oh I could easily make scenarios where VRC is awfully boring. You have to put in effort. It's not a sequence driven action game
Wb @thorny nacelle
thorny nacelle
Thank you ;3
queen mango
I'd rather play Warframe..
vocal shard
We are pro at warframe
tacit plank
You will have the fun you initialize I guess
lapis nebula
In 3 years using VRChat I’ve never ever been bored
tiny ginkgo
That's nice to hear.
lapis nebula
Although, 3 years ago, it was a struggle to find users
tiny ginkgo
It depends on one's mood also
thorny nacelle
I came back to a winnie the pooh sitting on me
tacit plank
Now it's difficult to find nice people without hacks or crash avatars (or friends with them)
Lmao, quite unpredictable, this game
tiny ginkgo
If I've felt lonely and gone online to find someone to talk with, but the mood just was... Dead... I've spent hours just sitting around
tacit plank
Guess every conversation needs either somebody charismatic, or somebody who's passionate about that subject
tiny ginkgo
It's a fun experience overall but it's very much dependant on oneself moreso than other "games"
tacit plank
If you sit by yourself, you might give off the feeling that you don't want to talk btw
thorny nacelle
Im too anxious to ask people to talk to me ; d
tacit plank
you could write something on your shirt with progressively smaller letters, so that people have to get close 😛
tiny ginkgo
I know.. I'm very social but sometimes my brain just.. collapses
That's a good idea. I've heard a lot of people use their avatar as an ice breaker
I'm great don't worry. Some friends come some go, but I'm happy
Thanks for caring though, that's kind
Sleep well Féz
thorny nacelle
Goodnight
whole tendon
