Still don’t see a problem with the avatars
#vrchat-general-2
elder cipher
rigid crescent
That's good, those avatars are fine for use there
umbral reef
And we can just promote the shit out of it until it spreads on its own
rigid crescent
What problem do you not see? You can't argue against numbers...
Lots of unoptimized avatars in a room=poor performance
uncut bluff
i have 1 model at medium and its a neikei model XD rest are all !
sullen escarp
nonsense, numbers aren't real
umbral reef
@elder cipher Avatars cause 80~% of all lagg within the game
Dynamic bones is most of that %
umbral reef
Aslong as your on poor with valid reason or above its aye owkay
rigid crescent
it's gotta be less than that with the whole IK thing
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Well- After the IK shit gets set on again it will be tbh
rigid crescent
My issue isn't even with rankings, btw Kantus. The ranks are stupid.
umbral reef
Right now maybe not as they reverted it but eh
topaz lance
my main avatar is very poor but with the amount of time I spent on it I am not taking it to a public world for someone to steal it and I don't mean clone I mean steal
dark narwhal
yee poor doesnt really bother me but many very poors are really bad
sullen escarp
i think my only ones that aren't at least "good" are the ones where i need limb copying with fixed joints/rigid bodies
umbral reef
Make two versions!
Get a public room avatar thats simple to just chat and make new friends and one private/friends+ one so peeps can show off there neat stuff while everyone gives a shit about it even
rigid crescent
The rankings are a terrible idea, but the stats aren't. That's what I'm talking about btw. I don't care how Laren's avatars are ranked.
topaz lance
mine is only very poor because of dynamic bones
uncut bluff
i saw someone last night with (9000) collisions
sullen escarp
agh
rigid crescent
Collisions, not colliders.
dark narwhal
"we could have been friends" blocks avatar
queen mango
Oh.
uncut bluff
also shaders cause lag
sullen escarp
that depends on the shader
umbral reef
Everything causes lag zzz
elder cipher
Lol sounds like my avatars. Hell yea
rigid crescent
They can, that's correct.
uncut bluff
someone put a shader on there model the moment they switched BOOM dead frames
sullen escarp
most of mine are faster than unity's due to using less lighting passes
rigid crescent
Yeah, you can be ranked excellent with a laggy shader and kill frames. THat's absolutely true.
languid beacon
This bears repeating: if someone blocks you for your avatar, they saved you getting to know them. If not your avatar, they’ve have eventually blocked you for some other silly reason somewhere down the line. Picky people are too much hassle and drama prone. Don’t waste the brain cells. Be considerate and keep your avatar lag free, regardless of what the system ranks you. That’s all you need to do. X)
rigid crescent
But shaders are much harder to moderate than avatars.
sullen escarp
and then some of mine are slow because they raymarch stuff
uncut bluff
lot of people are doing it to be cancer and some just dont know
dark narwhal
u can crash people with excellent
umbral reef
But with shaders its extremely shader specific
Something like Fur shader is extremely bad and peeps should be kicked bullied by educating them...
uncut bluff
meh i use fur
dark narwhal
my model only has fur shader and starnest
umbral reef
What fur shader?
sullen escarp
doki pls
rigid crescent
The situation we're in is absolutely VRC's fault, I can't deny that. THey did next to nothing to educate people on the issues with dynamic bones, materials, etc. Tupper's video mentions them and performance, but we got nothing in-depth til recently
umbral reef
As there is only ONE you should use
All others are around 20 times as worse as that one...
languid beacon
Unofficial site though to be fair
rigid crescent
Not the point to be fair
sullen escarp
Anime/MMD avatars are inherently worse than other avatars for performance.
sir your anime avatar is lagging me
rigid crescent
Why was this information not pushed as important as far back as that? Even during the massive boom, I'm positive they've had the time and resources to come up with an article detailing this inforamtion
languid beacon
Blame is kind of silly to argue about here for a game that’s not even finished
rigid crescent
No it's not?
uncut bluff
im going to keep playing very poor or not my thing is if you dont want to see it hide my avatar thats fine just dont block
languid beacon
They’ve given us tools to find out who is laggy. They in no way restricted the content your allowed to use
rigid crescent
Adeon, they could've just educated people LITERALLY a year or more ago
languid beacon
Just now you can’t be laggy and hope no one notices that’s all
rigid crescent
How hard do you think writing this article would've been a year ago? None this is even new information?
It's almost the EXACT thing Tupper talks about in the VRCats thread
topaz lance
My public avatars will never fall below medium. If someone bitches about my stuff not being excellent then they are getting blocked
languid beacon
Can’t say I wasn’t here a year ago :S
rigid crescent
There's absolutely no way they weren't aware of this information is my point. They knew and did nothing, as far as I can tell, to educate creators at all and that's why we're in this situation.
languid beacon
@topaz lance Why isn’t your stuff excellent it should be excellent
topaz lance
That is the main issue I see with the ranks. Not the system itself but the people that are going to emerge from it. Also @languid beacon funny joke
languid beacon
Yeah just don’t worry about the people.
neon flume
You're all excellent in my eyes
languid beacon
rigid crescent
Yeah, the ranks wouldn't be an issue if the scan worked properly and if the things it checks were weighted properly.
languid beacon
Don’t worry about the social aspect honestly
rigid crescent
Example: Bounds matter, but they don't matter nearly as much if all your other stats are fine.
languid beacon
Just like color nameplates no one cares in game. Seriously.
rigid crescent
If you're excellent in every way EXCEPT your avatar bounds, it shouldn't put you to poor.
sullen escarp
i disagree, if you're not excellent, then you're very poor. there is no in between
green star gang rise up
languid beacon
I don’t know where you are all finding these people who care about rank in game. I don’t believe they exist.
topaz lance
fun fact going over 70k polys at any amount will instant you to very poor even if its 70001
languid beacon
Well yes that implies a modified SDK
sullen escarp
^
umbral reef
@topaz lance Also means you are breaking the rules
topaz lance
I don't intend to go over 70k even my craziest thing right now is only a little over 50k
Don't even know how to do that
dire wave
This isnt something to be discussed here...
opaque hawk
it not like 69999 ranks you as good to begin with
languid beacon
Actually 32001 to 70000 is ranked good
opaque hawk
ok
topaz lance
what happens if I upload an avatar with under 10k will I unlock a hidden rank called God Tier?
umbral reef
@neon flume You are more then excellent in my eyes 
dire wave
I have been thinking of just making a box with eyes and hands for my avatar to make the polygods pleased
topaz lance
4 polys...Truly...the messiah has been found
neon flume
❤ @umbral reef 🤗
dire wave
But the render of the eyes and hands would be a few polys
polar bone
fax
stone current
woof
polar bone
furry lol
dire wave
sure
stone current
poly Dogs
polar bone
-1 tris
dire wave
logout?
stone current
just upload an empty avatar
polar bone
You actually increase preformance
stone current
excellent rating
dire wave
empty avatar would be really weird...
vocal shard
How to lose your time 101: empty avatars
opaque hawk
I have a avatar that ironically increases performance if you use
dire wave
why would you loose it?
topaz lance
aren't we supposed to be getting better dynamic bones or something so we can have moving hair without vrchat getting triggered?
dire wave
dear dog...god..
opaque hawk
its a big box and when people go into it you can't see them and they occlude.
languid beacon
VRChat SDK calls them polygons but they mean triangles. Any uploaded quads are converted to 2 tris
vocal shard
Is article 13 applied to vrc already?
umbral reef
@topaz lance Its something they are looking at but no promises or predictions for it
stone current
idk if they still are bc of unty update
vocal shard
My friend said you can get banned for memes
stone current
bc like in unity when u import a .blend
dire wave
@vocal shard doubt it
umbral reef
@vocal shard Tell him he is a dumb dmb
stone current
theres an option about keeping quads
dire wave
Europe thing
rigid crescent
Depends on the meme, obviously.
topaz lance
if you got banned for memes ugandan knuckles wouldn't be a thing
stone current
rigid crescent
If your meme is about being a nazi/hitler shit then yeah
vocal shard
He said his meme avatar that people cloned got him banned
rigid crescent
if your meme is "ECKS DEE EMOJIS HIT OR MISS" then no
languid beacon
For the purposes of counting polygons it will count quads as 2 tris regardless
stone current
awoof
vocal shard
I've seen too many nazis avatars this month, that shit is getting out of control.
rigid crescent
again, depends on the meme. that's not enough info
stone current
i saw a furry nazi avatar
rigid crescent
LOL
stone current
does that count
umbral reef
@vocal shard report them and get the game cleared of the filth
vocal shard
Obviously
stone current
ik where the models from
topaz lance
people are using nazi and kkk avatars to troll the new system
dire wave
kool kids klub?
vocal shard
I think I have them recorded, I'd need to check
elder cipher
Lol I saw some of those
stone current
i saw someone that were supposed to be a ghost avatar
umbral oracle
If you want to troll you can use nepstack or find a knuckles.
stone current
but they did the cloth wrong so it pointed up like a kkk uniform
topaz lance
mainly because an optimized hitler avatar will be considered excellent because it has good performance. The system isn't checking for the user being an asshole or not. All you can do is report the user and let the mods take care of it
stone current
they forgot the round capsule collider for head
lol
rating system kinda funny tho
languid beacon
Sometimes I wonder if people are attracted to nazi stuff because are actually racist or simply like being cool and edgy
Either way it’s stupid
stone current
i saw someone with like extremely racist avatar
rigid crescent
most of the time it's them thinking they're cool and edgy
topaz lance
the latter more than likely
vocal shard
does the ingame report system actually work?
stone current
and it was rated excellent
umbral oracle
It's still hate speech if used in that way.
umbral reef
mainly the first adeon
dire wave
is there a good site you can recomend for model bases (to edit in Blender)?
stone current
good to know racist avatars are excellent
rigid crescent
Yes, but they have a small moderation team so its slow
umbral reef
@vocal shard sort of but best to email them on moderation@vrchat.com
topaz lance
Thats what trolls do. I am sure that most of the people in nazi avatars are not actually nazis they just want people to be mad. Thats the point of trolling
stone current
if u got topo tools u can draw polys on top of bases
make it easier 2 make cloths
topaz lance
and they don't care if they get banned. They will either just make a new account or go to another game and be an ass there
umbral oracle
The thing is by using that iconography you are still supporting hate speech, whether that was the original intent doesn't matter.
topaz lance
wat
stone current
what i hate is avatars with stupid fly or noclip glitch that just clip thru everything in worlds and ruin them
umbral oracle
Oh the particle thing isn't a hacked client. It's a known reported bug
Just an integer overflow
tacit plank
Oh. He did have a hacked client as well though
topaz lance
how does negative polys work that- okay I figured that was a bug
tacit plank
He kept mentioning it
vocal shard
negative polys?
tacit plank
I just think that he had a crash gun as well or something, as only a really large number of particles should be able to break the counter
umbral oracle
If a number too large goes into a signed integer it will become negative.
topaz lance
so in reality he had more polygons than the game can count?
tacit plank
At least 2^32 particles, you don't want to render that
umbral oracle
So the stats system probably converted to the wrong numeric type than the one unity uses internally
tacit plank
This was particles. I'm not sure how to bug the polygon counter. Technically it's not possible
vocal shard
I guess I need to do a complete overhaul on all my avatars. They fall along the red
tacit plank
A 7 million poly model will use 80MB of space. To break the counter you'd have a 25 terabyte avatar. They probably do it in some other way
vocal shard
7 M poly model sounds rough.
tacit plank
Froze my Unity for 10 minutes on import
vocal shard
Why would you even try that
topaz lance
I am not fixing my avatars that I don't intend to bring to public worlds. That's just me though
stone current
its bc they using signed integers probably
languid beacon
I think the most complex benchmarks only use around 6 million tris
tacit plank
It looks great in game! Smoothest model in VRChat despite being over 10 meters tall
umbral oracle
I used 2M poly meshes with 1 vertex. They work fine. Maybe recomputing the normals or tangents was slow by vertices
stone current
bounding box isnt rly an issue
tacit plank
Your FPS will half if you look at it. Maybe it will be better if uploaded on the new Unity though
tacit plank
I thought the bounding box thing was to punish users for adding animations of 3 clones of their avatar dancing, because that is pretty laggy.
It just punishes snailmarker guys now though
stone current
yea but
rigid crescent
people are considering workaroudn for markers already though so i think it's fine
stone current
bounding box is how much screen space they roughly take up
rigid crescent
it just requires 2 animation slots, which doesn't evne matter because you're writing and dont need them while writing anyway
tacit plank
I guess bounding box can break culling
stone current
when its out of that space its not gonna be rendered
even if its not blocked
so if snail marker didnt have those bounda
rigid crescent
Yeah, it's not necessarily how big your model is, which is what confused me at first
you can be a speck and still never not-render
rigid crescent
But if you set the marker to 2 gestures you should be able to just shrink it
stone current
bc thebounding box is basically used for AABB
rigid crescent
since the issue is the marker being a mile away
stone current
so if the camera ray goes thru that bounding box
it will include the item for processing
tacit plank
Why is snailmarker even moved to begin with?
stone current
?
tacit plank
Doesn't it move it off screen to delete it or something?
stone current
like
rigid crescent
It's a "That's how it's always been done" thing from the multiple solutions for it I've been hearing
stone current
snailmarker is a shader
tacit plank
Why not set the particle lifetime to 0 instead?
stone current
its a shader [2]
not a particle
objects will not render if the camera cannot see their bounding box
tacit plank
Oh, like that
stone current
and bc its a shader it has to have a bounding box large enough to include all markings
tacit plank
So, 1 by 1 meter and "culling disabled" would work?
stone current
yea but like
thats slightly worse
bc now there is no bounding box really
it just gets occluded
but its always processed or checked if not occluded
people have done similar things like
tacit plank
Sounds like a pain to work with
stone current
single emission particle with a looooong trail
and etc
which might be better performance wise
tacit plank
What about placing a particle with 0 speed 10 times per second?
It will be ugly dots rather than lines, but yeah
stone current
u wouldn't need to
bc trails
idk if local particles have world trails anymore tho
dire wave
would something like this Ice elemental from GW2 be hard to make wok within bounds of an avatar? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/a/a6/Icebrood_Elemental.jpg/240px-Icebrood_Elemental.jpg
dire wave
spiky polygons with custom textures... a bit of fog..
I havent spent much time learning Blender...
languid beacon
Easily noss it does not look over 10k tris even
dire wave
guess I have my first abstract design for practice setup then
vocal shard
ocean coral
wtf 🤔 some users now can crash your internet in vrchat 
languid beacon
X doubt
vocal shard
Works here @safe prism
safe prism
tacit plank
They can DDOS you, but it's illegal
And Steam is to blame for leaking your IP, not VRChat
vocal shard
ocean coral
and stole personal ISP info D:
safe prism
good way to get banned
tacit plank
They can get your ISP and IP, but it's general information
umbral reef
Again blame steam not VRC for that
safe prism
really good way to get banned
vocal shard
tacit plank
At best, they can tell which city you're from
vocal shard
There we go
ocean coral
rip!
tacit plank
But more often than not, it gets it wrong
umbral reef
And as mic said- Anyone can get that information without too much work anywhere and everywhere on the internet
vocal shard
Why would i get banned fpr
safe prism
pepe and nsfw
tacit plank
Google "IP lookup" if you want to see where the internet thinks you're from. That's what the modded clients can see too
safe prism
both heavily against the rules here
tacit plank
I kind of agree with that, but if you're going to troll or spam emojis, random-chat is best
ocean coral
How can that be prevented?
rigid crescent
a VPN
but really, is them knowing your city that bad?
what are they gonna do wtih that info?
ocean coral
no one knows
tacit plank
They will use the information to scare you, they don't really care who you are
vocal shard
No jsut flexing on @okano
rigid crescent
"no one knows" what?
I live in Houston, Texas. OK, now what are you going to do to me? lol
you know my state and city. great. now w hat?
tacit plank
You can find out who they are by Googling their online accounts and cross referencing them
vocal shard
@torn nebula
rigid crescent
yeah ive seen a lot of that
vocal shard
Tested
tacit plank
It's a bit of a dick move, though
torn nebula
@vocal shard ?
umbral reef
Anyone on the internet can get your IP, ISP and Geo location when you visit a website or connect to a service...
As caff has said. You can exactly see what information they can see if you ask google
tacit plank
Youtube gives out your information now?
umbral reef
Doesnt say per account --
safe prism
jsyk, depending on how liberally you spread your home address over your IP, one might eventually leak it to geoip dbs
true sky
YouTube always does when you appeal a strike for copyright reasons, which some people who false flagged took advantage of the problem to try to blackmail people.
umbral reef
They do that for strikes and ect because they are legally forced to do that
Its a legal action you take so... Its WAY different then what we have been talking about
true sky
just talking when people took advantage of the false flagging issue
which somewhat still happens
tacit plank
So if I flag a video, I can see who made it even if the flagging fails? Or what
Remember the exploit some years ago where you could delete other people's videos by deleting your own but changing the ID to theirs first?
umbral reef
Also why company accounts are a thing now
and why google promotes you to use those when making a new YT
As you can just list an adres and ect instead of your own stuff
But this isnt #vrchat-general-2 talk
stone current
polar bone
Stop you furry
stone current
languid beacon
Ok I need to talk about avatar cloning.
Combined with chairs on avatars, I think it’s one of the best things to happen to VRChat in a long time. However there is the side effect of map makers losing one great way of attracting people to their maps: rewards for finishing/exploring. I really think this should be addressed by a third upload option for avatars, disallowing cloning dispite the user preference. No idea what it would be called, I’ll just call it Pedestals only. So Private / Pedestals only / Public. What do you all think
median basalt
Cloning has made a lot of annoying avatars appear in far too many places
And there is currently no way to prevent an avatar of yours from being cloned, so I support the suggestion.
Reward avatars or "friends" avatars are RIP right now
rigid crescent
"And there is currently no way to prevent an avatar of yours from being cloned, so I support the suggestion." Th-...There's not?
languid beacon
I mean uploading private works fine
umbral reef
If you have an avatar world you cant prevent those avatars from being cloned aka to be avatar world only
Its or all or nothing for avatar worlds
rigid crescent
"Friends" avatars are fine. Tell them to turn their shit off. e z
reward avatars are unfortunately affected tho, but I have yet to see any actually pop up lol
mostly friends turning into one another or into some memes
opaque hawk
I agree that there should be a third avatar option for uncloneable public avatars
languid beacon
“Tell people to turn their option off”
Sure but two problems with that. One, it’s the honor system. Sure you should trust your friends, but it’s not ideal. And it’s a genie in the bottle. If you make a mistake and it gets out, it’s out.
Two, I like being cloneable and remembering to turn it off when wearing specific avatars is just unneeded hassle
The current system is probably easy on dev though, they only have to ensure private avatars cannot be used by someone who isn’t their uploader, public avatars are just considered fully public and they don’t have to worry much about who is requesting to use it
Still having an option for pedestal use only would help map makers
Avatars were the one incentive there was to share a map with friends who might want the avatar
They can also be used as a key for maps like that one map where you had to unlock a pedestals then wear the avatar to solve a puzzle
Just some examples
Anyway that’s all just an idea. Love avatar cloning aside from being a little sad for map making /avatar worlds being sidestepped
ruby burrow
It's not a solution either way, but what happens if you set a public avatar to private after someone has already used and favourited it?
rigid crescent
should redman
vocal shard
Nah
inner cape
a forsenbaj
vocal shard
Baj m8n
inner cape
vocal shard
Me no have Nitro
inner cape
mine runs out in a few days
vocal shard
rigid crescent
imagine not having nitro 
languid beacon
@ruby burrow nothing happens to the user or any observers immediately but new people loading in to the world will see them as a red unloaded avatar; and once they swap worlds they will see themselves as a blue unloaded avatar and their favorite slot will just be a placeholder saying to unfavorite to free up a a slot
They can keep the slot around in case it ever goes public again but otherwise it’s unusable and people will just see a red unloaded avatar
tacit plank
I suggested a "Friends only" setting, but apparently some technical details are preventing them from making it, or making it difficult at least
languid beacon
I don’t know anything about their back end but I’d assume the avatar system has absolutely no knowledge of the friend system and linking them might be more resources than it’s worth
Plus there are loose ends like what when friendships dissolve
Or what stops people from just friending randoms to share it
Easier to just have unclonableness built in and send them to a pedestal or set up a world that just lets the owner turn people into said avatar 😛
tacit plank
I meant friend of creator, not friend of whoever is using the avatar
languid beacon
(Some people don’t realize that’s possible heh)
tacit plank
Shouldn't be hard to ask "Is the user friends of the avatar creator" in an if statement
It has to be done server side though, to prevent modified clients from taking friend only avatars
languid beacon
Yeah modern code doesn’t work like that
The amount of times I’ve heard “what do you mean it’s just an if statement” x)
tacit plank
It shouldn't be difficult
glossy wharf
Then write it and send it to them
tacit plank
They'd probably need an API change, but that's kind of needed already
hidden jewel
it shouldn't be difficult and it isn't difficult are so far from each other you could fit the solar system in the gap
tacit plank
As far as I know, hacked clients can change to any public avatar as long as they know the ID of it. The server doesn't know if it's approved or on an avatar anywhere. Neither does it currently check if the users are in the same world, or if the person is friends with the creator
So people with modified clients don't have to worry about being banned, because they can still use their old crash avatars
All that information is available, so the system should be able to test on these conditions before returning the unitypackage download.
Hell, some months back, the output log would give you a download link to every avatar you loaded! Not a good choice
torn nebula
file a canny ¯_(ツ)_/¯
remember that the client and server are probably different subteams within the vrchat dev team, it could be as simple as "the backend team was totally swamped so we had to make do with client-side-only changes"
tacit plank
Client side security is bad design, and they have been modifying related things for the past year
torn nebula
sure, but it kind of depends on the security model. AIUI, if you know the ID of a public avatar you can just slap it on your own pedestal anyway, so it's reasonable should really treat them as "truly public" until the backend team can build an ACL of some sort for avatars
rigid crescent
that's how it used to be done actually, before there was private/public
tacit plank
Yeah, right now it's difficult to tell what's meant to be public
But we have booth avatars being shared and such now, so more options than "private" and "public" would be good.
They would need to be tied to the creator or something I guess (you can see who made them since recently, so that's a step in that direciton?)
torn nebula
basically, in the current vrchat security model, there is nothing in-between "100% public anyone can use it" and "100% private only the creator can use it", and improving on that is going to need work from both backend and frontend teams
and, from the looks of the recent service issues, the backend teams already have their hair on fire...
torn nebula
so if the backend teams are underwater but the client teams have some spare cycles you get what looks like half-baked features to the outside observer - e.g. avatar stats computed on the client side after load, or avatar cloning without a complete permissions model
or IK data that causes the backend to fall over once the client starts sending them ¯_(ツ)_/¯
tacit plank
But can't the validation on private avatars be used, but with "friends of creator" instead of "creator"? It's one API call
torn nebula
you have no idea how many API calls are involved, to be fair. Does the server doing the avatar check have access to the users database? For that matter, is it p2p (relayed via photon)?
Does the users db have the spare iops to make this kind of lookup?
For that matter, what's coming down the pipe? There's an accepted canny talking about adding guilds to VRChat - maybe they're halfway through implementing a much more fully-fledged feature and don't want to deploy a half-solution that they have to rip out and replace a couple months later
things are never as simple as they seem
languid beacon
In my option public should mean “truely public, this could go viral” as that is what most people would assume it would mean. Wanting less than that is a great feature request...
torn nebula
relevant: https://xkcd.com/1172/
https://vrchat.canny.io/feature-requests/p/avatar-creators-can-allow-specific-users-access-to-private-avatars <-- here's the feature request, upvote it 😃
tacit plank
When I visit a persons page (directly through API) it tells me if I'm friends with them or not. I don't know how many API calls it really is though, that's true
It's just one URL visit for me
torn nebula
sure, but remember, you're acting-as the client, which is authorized to contact the friends/presence servers
tacit plank
I think "friends only" would be better than that system, because otherwise the server would need to store a list of players for every single avatar by every single person.
It already stores a lot of information from the blocks and safety system, which is also why I try not to use it too much
languid beacon
In that subject I would personally love my own uploads to be separated into private and public categories
torn nebula
what's happening on the backend though? First off, who is evaluating the authz check? Is there a world server involved, or is it just photon relaying messages between all clients? If it's the latter, could this new feature be exploited to probe someone else's friend list?
Asking if avatar X is owned by user Y (or is public) is a fairly safe sort of check to let anyone perform on the client-side
So there doesn't actually have to be a server doing that authz check
safe marsh
are we witch hunting in this chat rn? 
torn nebula
No, just pointing out the difficulty of implementing friends-only avatars
tacit plank
I need to be logged in to use it, so I guess so. It's on the website and not in game, so it shouldn't use photon
It should be server sided, because otherwise people modify their clients to cancel the check
torn nebula
So it's pretty distant from any infrastructure involved with world state and/or avatar asset distribution
The main concern here is - if they create a server-side API which does something like: "Check if user X is a friend of the owner of avatar Y" - then this could be abused to see if user X is a friend of user Y, even if user X isn't using that avatar.
tacit plank
Currently, if you ask the server for an avatar, it will send you the download link as long as it's public. I think the check needs to be here
torn nebula
So this API also needs to be aware of whether user X actually is using that avatar. And so the complexity mounts.
It's all doable - there's some crypto stuff you can do to make this all work - but it's not "throw an intern on it for a day and it'll be done" easy
tacit plank
You can only see if you are friends with the creator though, and only if the avatar is set to "friends only", if it's private, it will just tell you no. If it's public, it will give you the avatar
If you send your identity along with the avatar request
torn nebula
You can't even see it if you're not friends? I'm not sure that's how people expect a friends only avatar to work.
You're right that it's the only way to truly prevent avatars from being ripped/downloaded/cloned though
tacit plank
Ah, right. Loading others avatar is not much different from downloading it
torn nebula
Right.
tacit plank
Changing your own avatar for others is a server sided action though, and can be validated
torn nebula
Is it, though? I can see architectures in which it would not
Imagine if a client just sends its current avatar ID just as it would some position data to all other clients.
Then we ask the avatar server to give us the assets for that avatar, and attach the ID of the user claiming to be using that avatar. The avatar server says no if it's private and a non-owner is using it.
That's a perfectly viable architecture that has serious privacy issues if we implement friend avatars
tacit plank
Oh, good point! I know that the game sometimes shows the wrong avatar though, and currently you can't change to private ones.. So in this case it's server sided
torn nebula
A non-hacked client would of course do the same private avatar permissions check before even sending the avatar change packet.
So the important question here is not whether it's server sided, but rather the specific path the avatar change takes when going from user A to user B.
because even if we can't fool the server, if we can fool user B, bad things will happen
either: We effectively become the avatar even though the server thinks otherwise (because all that really matters is what other clients think)
or: The other client can/must redo the permissions check. In which case, we can also do the permission check - but can we use this to probe someone else's friends list?
So that's not so good.
One solution to this would involve having clients sign their avatar change requests - but now we have to build a PKI to teach other clients how to verify those signatures, or we have to use shared secrets between clients and the avatar asset/authz servers
Or we can relay it through a server, but if that's not the current architecture that's a major change
umbral reef
Lets just tl;dr this for non tech peeps
System needs a full overhaul
torn nebula
possibly. it's all speculation ¯_(ツ)_/¯
what's clear however is that, at least right at the present moment, there are way more important things to do wrt server stability
umbral reef
There is no way to properly protect it without the result you came to
And thats doing some big changes on how the system works
tacit plank
When you change avatar, you tell the server "I am currently (ID)", if that just returns true or false, can it really leak much information?
It is getting technical though. But this is also interesting
torn nebula
@tacit plank No, I say "Caffeine just said they're (ID of a friends-only avatar belonging to Tupper)". And if it says "OK, caffeine can use that", I now know that you're friends with tupper
Now, you never actually used that avatar. You might not even be in the same world as me. But does the server vending asset download URLs know that?
tacit plank
I don't think it should work like that. You should just tell the server "Who is Caffeine?" and it should return an ID, like the website search seems to
torn nebula
Ah, but if we do that we have timing issues - if you switch avatars twice quickly, which result will I get, and will I get out of sync with your current avatar?
tacit plank
Like I said earlier, the current avatar is serversided, the client might say who it is, but the server has it is check and should be the one to tell clients
torn nebula
You're also putting a lot of load on the DB holding your last-used avatar state (potentially 30-60x the current cost of an avatar change)
tacit plank
That's a good observation! It seems to be how it works though. If you change avatars too fast, others sometimes see you as the wrong one
torn nebula
race conditions are fun, eh?
anyway my point is - there's no guarantee that the avatar data goes through a single flow from one user to another. arguably it probably shouldn't - but it's also a lot easier, and a lot lighter load on the DBs/servers, to make it a p2p thing
tacit plank
Most of the game seems to be P2P, so it's probably difficult to change some things
torn nebula
and that probably seemed like a perfectly reasonable idea early in the design process of vrchat, before anyone had the idea that people would want private avatars
tacit plank
Server keeps track of users, but users interact with the world and sync that to others. So modified clients can spawn in objects and delete the world collision and such
glossy wharf
@torn nebula the out of sync thing is exactly what happens
When you switch too quickly people sometimes load the first choice
torn nebula
@glossy wharf interesting. that could also happen with the p2p architecture, to be fair
glossy wharf
Im pretty sure nothing is p2p
tacit plank
I'm a bit impressed you could tell that avatar loading issue just from guessing how the system might work, by the way
torn nebula
@tacit plank I spent like six years building a distributed system, race conditions are my bread and butter lol
we had a LOT of "easy fixes" on our backlog
glossy wharf
If it were p2p a user lagging out would directly affect others networking which is not the case
torn nebula
because there's always something more important
and you can't get ANYTHING done, no matter how small, in less than a week
tacit plank
Every room has a "master" and a "owner", it's a bit of a pain to make worlds because you have to put everything on the right permission level, and some things are locked.
If rooms ran on a server, syncing would be much easier, but users would probably be able to crash the entire server then
glossy wharf
The master is only a system in place for moderation in private rooms for kicking and warning
Owner is the map owner which is also because world owners can moderate any of the instances of their world
torn nebula
@glossy wharf without having actually dug into any of the details, I would assume that the photon server interposes itself just to avoid exposing client IPs; but ultimately a leader is elected among existing clients to track world state, and the leader hands over quickly if the current leader starts lagging.
tacit plank
But VRChat triggers are tied to these
torn nebula
I assume this because it's a WAY cheaper architecture to operate than running actual world host servers
tacit plank
And the last person to touch an object decides its position
And yeah, I can see why this system is easier for them
glossy wharf
@torn nebula negative, it all runs over the server, thus the logout glitch. Its a photon exploit that abuses the way the server synchronizes room data.
torn nebula
logout glitch?
glossy wharf
Yes, by abusing the networking a user can force logout another user utilizing the photon networking system
tacit plank
I thought that was just a client sending a garbage message to every other client
glossy wharf
Which happens through the server
tacit plank
At some point, my crash log had a discord server link because of that
glossy wharf
You send a request to the server that gets synched then logs out
The whole networking is broken to be fair.
torn nebula
yeah, my guess would be that the "server" is a particular elected client (possibly the "master") - however you route the messages via photon servers (which just forward stuff on blindly). So the master can kick anyone arbitrarily since they (at least for the moment) own the world.
glossy wharf
A modified client can abuse the networking to a point where he sends info to the server of an object being a different one and it gets synched to replace room objects
tacit plank
Security wise, pretty broken I guess
torn nebula
This has a lot of advantages - e.g. lower ping if everyone in the world is in the same area of the real world (and a photon relay is nearby)
tacit plank
Modified client probably takes ownership of something
torn nebula
which works even if the instance has been running for a while and people drop in and out as the active timezones change
tacit plank
Like how anyone can pick up a marker
glossy wharf
Thats not how it works
torn nebula
anyway if a hacked client can cause your client to logout that sounds like the vrchat client has some abusable error-handling path that just goes and resets everything because it thinks its authentication token was invalidated
tacit plank
Then they're in charge of that object, and goes "I just clicked a button which disables the world collision." and every other client obeys
torn nebula
me: "Hi mallory! I'm bd_!" Mallory: "Your authorization token is invalid. Are you sure you're logged in?" me: "Oh, oops! I'll go log back in now! Thanks for letting me know!"
true sky
Probably the same clients used to spawn objects to lag the world till the instance crashes
glossy wharf
@torn nebula Its literally abusing the photon networking, no error handling, nothing
Also not using any authentication tokens or data validation
torn nebula
security is hard ¯_(ツ)_/¯
tacit plank
I've been crashed by RPC calls which had invalid data in the, or something. I assumed this is how the logout worked, at least the result is the same.
If you can press a button to do something bad in a world, you can do it without pressing the button if other clients trust you enough
dapper lintel
@here today, we all lost a really great vrchat member, his name IamnotPraise and went through a heart transplant surgery yesterday. Sadly, he couldn't make it, and i just got the news from his cousin. Prayers to his family will be greatly appreciated from all you guys. Sorry to make this depressing but, he was a really good friend of mine.
tacit plank
You shouldn't attempt to ping everyone, and I don't believe in god.. Sorry for your loss though
true sky
@dapper lintel sorry for your loss.
dapper lintel
sorry, i dont know how this group works so lol
but thank you @true sky @tacit plank
tacit plank
There's almost 16000 users here, so pings to everyone are disabled
tacit plank
Oh right, pings are also send to offline players
median basalt
There's "here" which only pings online people
glossy wharf
^
dapper lintel
oh sorry about that
tacit plank
It's fine
true sky
and now im in a login loop
:/
yep
it was fine until alot of people with modified clients showed up
i already got a report ready to go
tacit plank
Crashers are assholes
Sadly a lot of high ranked users seem to be friends with some, or use modded clients and crash guns themselves
true sky
and rejoining hearing people laughing because they logout people
median basalt
I'm friends with a crasher, but he only crashes people who are okay with it as far as I know
He also got banned a billion times for various reasons
He put VR Pill's real face on an avatar and spread it around
tacit plank
If he got banned a lot, maybe he's not good for the community
rigid crescent
tbh #freedot2018
tacit plank
You can use such an avatar without being bad, but chances are that they're bad
tacit plank
It starts out with "I only crash people who deserve it" and then they slowly get used to crashing others and start making up excuses, or crash whoever they find the slightest bit annoying or whatever
rigid crescent
Yep exactly
A weird thing I compared it to was when I used to used cheats in games as a kid
"Oh I'll just do it this one time." and then eventually you're not even playing the game without them
tacit plank
I mean, that's how it usually goes for the better ones. The worse ones are just extremely salty people. Recently somebody crashed me after telling the room to go to hell. His voice sounded a bit insane, kind of like that Rodger school shooter guy
tacit plank
People in general are also just unresonable. I get that a lot of things are easy to dislike, but if you're overly critical then there will be nothing left
idle elm
🐐
jovial shale
So. Where do I send the logout to devs. So they can patch this?
The newest one disconnects you from the photonnetwork so it makes you go home or puts you into an infinite loop.
civic plume
patchy the pirate
true sky
arrrg
jovial shale
so noone's gonna tell me where i send this logout so they patch the thing 
languid beacon
I mean just to curb expectations they are on holiday
torn nebula
include your output log
jovial shale
Include my output log for what?
torn nebula
if you're reporting a bug to vrchat, include your output log file
jovial shale
I own the logout. I want it patched.
true sky
there was a canny to get them to patch it and was marked as complete
languid beacon
Serious answer, hello@vrchat.com
torn nebula
hmm... they don't have an obvious dedicated security contact. they probably should, but absent that hello@ is a good starting point
languid beacon
Just don’t expect them to work over New Years :p
true sky
1st canny that got their attention: https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/logout-exploit-2
it patches having to relogin
ruby burrow
Down to 136 bones. A few desired leaf bones added manually, so can use CATs export now rather than adding wasteful automatic leaf bones. Weird bits merged.
Unfortunately still going to be a fair bit over the 32 dynamic bones recommended for the medium rating.
Not an easy target that one.
rigid crescent
my transforms aren't going anywhere ❤
rigid crescent
lemme find my hair, i think it's 13 and 13
ruby burrow
Still got 32 on the skirt. Not sure if I can cut it any more without beginning to notice a difference.
I guess I could always just make a separate extra optimised version for use in crowds.
My hair is only 8 bones in total. Benefit of having a simple neck length style.
torn nebula
make another version that wears pants for use in crowds?
ruby burrow
I've been wanting to find outfits that suit the character.
rigid crescent
156 hair transforms for two pigtails :3
ruby burrow
All her official artwork is sorta feminine and traditional.
Christ. No way you need that many.
rigid crescent
to get the desired effect, yes
ruby burrow
Unless the pig tails are 9 metres long.
rigid crescent
no, it's just transforms are multiplicative
sullen escarp
post bones
rigid crescent
since i use multiple scrripts
I did earlier. only transforms are in my skirt, but its meant o be pretty still so i can probably get it lower tbh
12 scripts per ponytail, 1 on skirt. I don't use this in publics or big friends+ tho lol
It's why I question why you're punished for scripts used even though transforms already punishes you enough, which is was excessive scripts cause. excessive transforms if used on the same bone chain
ruby burrow
I'm tempted to try Bananers skirt trick despite the length of mine, since it looks so good in the video, but I have a feeling it won't be compatible.
rigid crescent
Kareeda does one with a long dress kemono thing
rigid crescent
https://youtu.be/hqobredT-sc its similar yeah
ruby burrow
Only two dynamic bones, yet looks like an expert cloth physics implementation.
rigid crescent
imo he over-optimizes it but you kinda get the idea
ruby burrow
Oh, a video. Cheers. This may well be relevant to me.
median basalt
@ruby burrow any particular reason for the leaf bones?
ruby burrow
Getting gravity to work properly.
Though... maybe I should actually just experiment more with the settings.
ruby burrow
Hmm. '-'
earnest ermine
end length is epic
median basalt
It makes the end bones act as if there's a leaf bone underneath so it can rotate properly
Very useful if you're working with low bone counts such as ears or breasts
ruby burrow
Ah, in the Dynamic Bone component. I see it.
Thanks, I'll try that then.
Gonna export a bunch of variants and figure out what I can do.
dawn plinth
What's VRchats stance on using an alt to store avatars on for avatar worlds?
And sharing avatar id's
torn nebula
afaik alts are permitted provided you're not banned on any of your accounts. not sure what you mean by sharing avatar ids here? modifying your client or SDK is always forbidden
ruby burrow
Yeah, alts are fine. Only clause is that if you happen to be banned, it means you and not just that account.
vocal shard
@ruby burrow what some people do is weight paint the skirt to the legs in the front and back then leave bones on the sides
languid beacon
Keep in mind, avatar folders are planned at some point, so, if you're doing it to avoid clutter, it might be good to just bear with it instead of jugging multiple accounts and being stuck with blueprints you don't want to delete on another account.
umbral oracle
It happens for worlds to include avatar's from other accounts I believe. But you should get permission from the other avatar creators to include their avatar ids (e.g. message them on discord to ask for the ids and ask if there is any attribution you should give). If both sets of avatars are made by you and set of public you would already have such permission. But what Adeon says probably makes sense if not just for your own future sanity as you start to juggle multiple account ids
true sky
ive kept avatars on my account to use in my world except 3 avatars, which i got permission to use 😉
viral yacht
Is anyone having lists not showing up? It says I have 33 favourited worlds but they aren’t appearing for me
torn nebula
@shy lantern it's a known issue with the unity update. Unity doesn't support that built-in and their workaround broke
Hopefully it'll get put back in at some point
shy lantern
well fug
torn nebula
Ah, the release notes commit to putting that option back in a future patch actually
shy lantern
yey
torn nebula
https://steamcommunity.com/app/438100/discussions/0/1744480332708884789/?ctp=4
You cannot change your microphone device from within VRChat. Workaround: Set your Default Recording and Communication Device in Windows before launching VRChat. If you wish to change your microphone while VRChat is still running, you have to disable the "old" microphone device that you're swapping from. This will be addressed in a future patch (this is a Unity bug)
Well they commit to fixing the unity bug anyway
languid beacon
Oddly enough i have been perfectly successful changing my recording device while the game is already running
despite them saying it no longer works >_>
torn nebula
Maybe that was already fixed in one of the patches that landed since then
viral yacht
Imma just pray my list appears because I have no way of removing favourites either to clear up space
umbral oracle
Does the favorite button not show as unfavorite when you search for a world you knew used to be in your favorites?
viral yacht
A whole lot of them aren’t appearing when I search them, I’m assuming that’s due to them not being public since most of them were avatar worlds
And the avatars probably weren’t optimized
Like basically not there’s 3 sections for favourited worlds, apparently my first one has 33/32 but the only one that appears is the one I favourited today
umbral oracle
Best you can do is mess around with it until it shows or wait it out. Ron acknowledged the issue and implied no patch until next year
All I know is I was able to get it to show by messing around with my playlist 2 but maybe it's account specific somehow. Maybe it broke because you have more than 32 in one list
viral yacht
Yeah maybe. It only had 32 but then for some reason it let me put in another today and not it’s full suddenly but only shows the one I added today. Hopefully messing around will make it appear
velvet estuary
so question, since I've been working quite a bit decided to jump back into VR Chat yet when I'm in VR I can't use my mic on my Vive and etc since binding since used to be open mic of sorts, but when in non-vr mode it's simple as pushing V to talk. Am I missing something new?
torn nebula
Make sure you set in steamvr settings to switch to the Vive audio devices
torpid mason
Where's the bug report section
Prety sure there used to be one
The new avatar stats window is extremely inaccurate
torn nebula
brittle egret
Lt Kero
timid musk
It was nice being on VRC again, my avatar is very poor as expected but fortunately I was just hanging with friends today. The workaround to the login loop finally decided to work for me and it was comforting. I'll make a dup avatar that's in better regulation but until I know the login loop is fixed I'm gonna hold off because if it isn't then there is no real point as I would just be in friend worlds anyway.
Plus there is always the chance that a future update will cut people like me out entirely.
covert chasm
Ah, okay. Yeah, that's tough. Having a baseline ping of 200-400ms on a good day isn't ideal.
timid musk
Yea I wish we could get better internet but it isn't always an option. Depending on where you live what you get is what you get.
You would have to move to hopefully get a better option
timid musk
Why did I have to be a rancher who lived in the middle of nowhere
vocal shard
because never thought be doing stuff like this online in the future? that happens alot with people some times
royal basin
at least you can pretend you're playing rdr2 irl
umbral oracle
It's still important for vrchat to support people with 500ms+ ping. Vrchat will need that to reach larger audiences in places like india who may have mobile connections with surprisingly good bandwidth but high ping (LTE is available to most of india's population) - as well as the use cases of satellite or mobile connections. Latency is a unavoidable physical constraint of life so software should always design itself around it.
covert chasm
Important, but difficult. It isn't as if we choose to have issues with high ping on users. It is a technical constraint/challenge.
umbral oracle
Yes definitely a challenge. It's not going to be the best experience without dedicated servers in multiple points of presence around the world
queen mango
Speaking of which.. Asia is a sweet spot for a server setup
royal basin
i think if there's a dedicated server in japan or something asia would get lesser ping in general
but i'm talking out of my ass
queen mango
Majority of people who play VRC are Asians
umbral oracle
Yep singapore is a major internet hub - good reach to india and east asia
umbral oracle
West US has ok reachability to east asia too but singapore would be better
hollow umbra
The majority of people population are Asian. 4.4 billion in the world
royal basin
singapore servers would make my ping much much more bearable
timid musk
I always liked VRchat, it is the one game I can play online where my internet wasn't a hindrance to others. Despite the problems I'm having currently ofcourse. The most they would have to deal with is a delayed voice and maybe me dcing ever now and then. I do hope we do get the chance to comeback with little to no problems.
queen mango
And of the Asia VRC demographic, there are a lot of KR and JPN players.. the rest are either RUS, PHP, CH, or TW
Just my guess..
They'd all appreciate it if a SGP server's set up
hollow umbra
And the greatest race of them all. White American virgin soy boy
queen mango
US Virgin Islands.. man, I never knew
If.. VRC ever gets a sustainable business profit, that is
hollow umbra
Isn’t oculus paying them?
queen mango
HTC
Paraphrasing from a past comment, "HTC paid them $4,000,000 back when there are an estimated 100 players in VRChat"
And that was last year, before December
Before Pewds, before Matsix, before Nagzz, before Ugandan Knuckles..
vocal shard
before i existed even
timid musk
lol I remember those times
queen mango
So yeah.. money would've been wasted were if not for Ugandan Knuckles
timid musk
I liked that meme, was the one thing that genuinely made me laugh. I never understood the depressing tide pod and bleach stuff.
timid musk
Ahh I remember when it all started. I watched a Nagzz vid, then Ashunera came along and that was the time I kinda retired from being a Discord moderator because I've been doing it for years and I kinda wanted to let loose online a bit. One of the people who drifted off one of the many servers I moderated and became a little VRC famous Trevor Kells. ( He was a good kid never broke the rules don't think he talked much but I do remember he had a big enough presence that I remembered his name )... things blew up for me from there in VRC
queen mango
Wait.. You was once a moderator here?
timid musk
No not here
queen mango
Oh.. Another server?
timid musk
But when Discord started I was a moderator for a lot of servers. Especially ones when people where making the move from Crunchyroll to here. If you followed a link from CR to a Discord server there was a good chance I was a moderator or worked with moderators to build their servers.
Never modded a VRC server, just mostly anime related ones.
queen mango
Hmm..
With that kind of experience, the guys up here are probably considering making you as one of the chat mods here.
Any shortcomings, tho?
royal basin
when did the knuckles meme blew up again
queen mango
December 2017-January 2018
royal basin
has it really been a year
timid musk
I'd decline lol. Uh moderating so many groups at once can be a little tiring especially when you have to deal with troublemakers who purposely break the rules. It's also pretty draining because instead of having fun you are just lurking looking for problems.
royal basin
oh man around the same time i downloaded the game
queen mango
I understand.
timid musk
I don't mod much anymore unless people absolutely need it.
queen mango
But... I appreciate having moderators around
Just wishing they were more active in my timeframe.
timid musk
Yea you gotta have mods for day shifts and night shifts. Having mods who are in a different timzone from you is good for that.
If it's a small server it's not really much of a problem
queen mango
My timezone's around HKST.. 3:35 PM current time.
Moderation activity is usually at its lowest that time around
Since most of the mods are from EU and US
Eg: Germany, UK, California, New York
timid musk
Yep I know that all too well lol
I live in the US, it's really hard to find mods who are active during my night hours.
Speaking of which... I should probably head to bed lol
mighty galleon
no
queen mango
Oof
tiny ginkgo
You've been harsh lately @mighty galleon was I too hard on you?
mighty galleon
how have i been harsh xD
languid beacon
Everyone hates the knux meme and I understand why, but it's what made me remember VRChat and check it out again. Had been gone since DK2. Had uninstalled it because at some point it auto-started when window started, and was dumping me into a public instance with voice just from turning my PC on. X_X
mighty galleon
i did?
tiny ginkgo
You don't even remember siiigh
I don't think the Knuckles meme is that bad personally
mighty galleon
i tend to not remember half the crap that comes out of my mouth
tiny ginkgo
They need love as well
languid beacon
If not for the knux meme i'd have never remembered VRChat and come back
so happy I came back, it's improved so much
civic plume
anyone when on desktop moving their mouse it like just jerks you around.. idk how to explain lol but im fucking getting sick of this. anyone know?
civic plume
nope its a client bug
tiny ginkgo
Yeah. It's if you move the window or something right?
civic plume
i hope its not my autistic mouse. i've gone through so many including those shitty corsair ones
tiny ginkgo
Autistic mouse
civic plume
yes am angry
covert chasm
Mouse movement is no longer affected by perf. So if you get a momentary hang, your mouse movement still counts.
covert chasm
So if you move a lot while you hang for that fraction of a second, it looks like you turn super quick
that's my understand of it, at least
civic plume
but it tosses my vision like the opposite direction? i am confused
covert chasm
dunno, i'm mostly guessing, but i've run into that once or twice
happened when i had some frames dropped/skipped
civic plume
oh thats fine. i just wanna know if it s not another bad mouse >.<
civic plume
maybe, its kinda like the same thing i have in unity if it happens when i get a lag spike. it keeps moving it even though im not
queen mango
It happens more often in lower-end systems, I believe
civic plume
thanks tupper though for your help 💜
@queen mango are you saying i have potato machine? ! 
queen mango
I am the one who has a potato machine
Which i can tell is a bad thing when it comes to CPU and RAM-heavy processes
queen mango
Lucky
queen mango
mighty galleon
elire
civic plume
does it surpass titan v?
civic plume
i will process you boy
twin jacinth
We need model names 
mighty galleon
<.<
civic plume
Titan V with 7700k 5ghz 💜
hollow umbra
I have 7700k recently
civic plume
i want another intel processer but they only realease junk so im stuck
hollow umbra
It’s soo good
civic plume
i dont want 8700k nor 9900k. so i wait
twin jacinth
Still have my 6600k
1080
hollow umbra
The chad 1060 vs virgin 1080
civic plume
7700k is good for running well at 5GHz (sometimes)
queen mango
Yes, Swamp?
mighty galleon
go to random and go up a bit
queen mango
Yea. I seen them
They look much better now
Anyways.. Laptop CPU.. cannot be overclocked to a bigger degree
hollow umbra
That’s what an iPhone is for
umbral oracle
I'm emulating mouse movement using FreePIE for really smooth turning in vr, and I notice that turning speed increases with lag for a constant rate of mouse events (rather than decreases or stays the same as I might expect). Might have to do with the turning lag fix.
safe prism
i can VR from literally anywhere on my laptop and it's no diff from my desktop, just like 10% less power.
umbral oracle
@civic plume basically the same thing you see but in vr- if I use my turning controls and a lag spike occurs I will be facing backwards or something
umbral oracle
Ooh sounds fun. You use WMR for mobility? I don't want to imagine what it's like to bring a whole oculus or vive setup with you
queen mango
You manage to get vr-ready hardware with the budgets you have, probably a year ago or two..
Meanwhile, I just barely got off to having to know about VR from the papers
And my damn country not knowing how to prioritize on new tech
Like.. I never see any VR headset from either HTC, or Oculus.. or even any of the PC and phone brands with VR gigs like Lenovo, Dell, Samsung, HP, ASUS, and Acer
...in any SM or Ayala Mall stores
twin jacinth
Poor Elire 
civic plume
okay @umbral oracle
queen mango
And they tell me to order them online.. like ugh, please
Well, Lenovo in my case, but still...
civic plume
guys i need some help
if i got a 2080ti in SLI but its now known as NVLINK (2x 2080tis) and plugged 3 2k 165Hz monitors into the first card. then on the second card plugged a vr headset into.. would it work? any suggestions
twin jacinth
Use dp for your monitors, vr uses hdmi and it should have both?
or is it different for your headset?
civic plume
well all my monitors always use DP and my new headset will use DP aswell.
i only have 3 dp's so i will need to change one cable which is okay because my 3 monitors, 2 of them are 1080p 60Hz whilst my middle monitor is a 2k 165Hz.. once again they all go into DP
umbral oracle
What you want should be possible in a VM
civic plume
my idea is this okay
1 of my 2080ti's is connected to 3 2k 165hz monitors. THEN my second 2080ti is connected to my 8k Pimax headset
umbral oracle
You can run windows in a VM inside windows and use pci passthru to give the other windows your second gpu
civic plume
Merry christmas @cold saddle 💜
umbral oracle
There might be a simpler solution but that should guarantee it has the whole gpu dedicated if that's your goal. If not, I would suggest making sure your vr gpu is your primary one
twin jacinth
safe prism
oh, re: WMR, i would if i had it, but since i don't, i just carry my oculus around
i wouldn't do that with my vive
civic plume
well i could make my vr gpu primary but with NVLINK (2000series gpu only) all cards are Master. isntead of the first card being master then the second ones slaves. and plus x16 pci lanes for the first card so i would probably put my vr on that one
umbral oracle
Oh I guess with nvlink you should be fine then
civic plume
im trying my best to make sense
safe prism
also monty, VR wants the same GPU your main monitor is on usually
civic plume
yeah NVLINK is different to SLI. if you say SLI then y our refering to the 1000 cards and below
safe prism
i doubt this changes with NVLINK
civic plume
which was a dead method of powering up your machines
then i can have my main monitor on my main gpu, vr on the main one. then everything else on my second one
safe prism
mhm
umbral oracle
Ya probably best. 2x 2080 Sounds $$$ though :-p just for an extra monitor haha
safe prism
but realize that's just port arrangement
civic plume
yes
safe prism
okii c:
cause if all you need is another monitor slot, grab a fuckin' 710 or something and plug stuff in
civic plume
i know thats another. whether its worth it considerign it will be 4 grand for me in australia plus another 2 2k 165hz moniters. totalling around maybe 5.5-6k
which i dont have at the moment
btw i think i just got crashed by someone. i had the same crash log before tho so idk.
umbral oracle
So many other ways to improve your gaming experience
Heck it might be cheaper to get another pc and install synergy (share mouse keyboard)
safe prism
i symapthize ngl
civic plume
i know, im looking at all of them to see which is best and what i could join together
lol
umbral oracle
It will feel like one computer and you get 2x cpu can run separate programs on each. A lot of streamers do things that way I think
safe prism
running last gen top of the line in SLI and being woefully disappointed
titan xps were a mistake but not one i'd take back
umbral oracle
Titan xp is a good card if you want top of the line. 2080 is only a tiny bit better unless you are doing cuda or computations
safe prism
imagine being one of the 1% of the world with the only nvidia driver that didn't crash w/ no man's sky on launch
actually being able to enjoy that trainwreck game
umbral oracle
I still run my faithful driver from 2017. I'll upgrade if some new game crashes. Otherwise -\o/-
twin jacinth
No man sky is actually decent now
safe prism
ye
civic plume
my titan v is great but like.. it only has so many ports lol plus its kinda old now.. it is abit buggy at times but still runs grandly
@twin jacinth i agree 
twin jacinth
I'm impressed at how much time the've put into making the game better, i think they really deserve the steam award tbh
umbral oracle
Reminds me I forgot to vote. What's the deadline
twin jacinth
4th i think
safe prism
i already made my money back mining altcoins from the first huge btc jump
titans are worth it if you have the luck of shigure
civic plume
maybe i should just get another titan :
safe prism
RTX Titans gogogo
twin jacinth
Yeah RTX Titan it's cheaper and better
queen mango
Voting closes on Jan. 3 10AM PST
Steam Awards...
safe prism
that's what's going in my next rig whenever i'm not struggling to eat uwu
civic plume
@twin jacinth RTX titan is better than the Titan V?
twin jacinth
I'll buy a new i7 cpu when i feel for it
only thing that's lacking in my rig tbh
twin jacinth
Yeah 90% sure it's going to be better
it's a gen over so it'd be bad if it were performing lower than the Titan V
twin jacinth
cpu can be good for 10 years
3-4-5-6 series is still used a lot
maybe not 3 so much but 4-5-6
Changing out your 6900k already oof
civic plume
thanks guys 
💜
twin jacinth
safe prism
mine was running at a 95% OC for 600-ish days in a row doing reasonably hard work
twin jacinth
Might half the lifespan which means it can still live for 5 years
safe prism
look
it can't hold an OC on any mobo i have
Vcore is well above what i'd like it to be
civic plume
i have but one more question
twin jacinth
ok might be time to switch it out
civic plume
AMD?
or
Intel?
twin jacinth
Depends on use tbh monty
for cpu
safe prism
i know it's dead, i'm not dumbo
civic plume
safe prism
holds together on stock so it's what i leave it on
but that's like 1.3GHz lower off turbo
lmao
twin jacinth
Lol :P
I don't oc my cpu
might do it if i know i'll get rid of it though, you break the warranty if you do here
civic plume
but amd is good for amount of cores and intel is good for power per core or something like that. last i heard
queen mango
Price may not be a problem for Monty..
safe prism
well
civic plume
thanks okana 💜
safe prism
price isn't always the factor
twin jacinth
It is, though here regardless of the cpu if you oc you break the warranty
i guess you can contact intel but that's a pain in the ass, you go through the shop you bought it from here
safe prism
you kinda want to find the balance. price wasn't an issue when i did 6900K over 6950X or whatever that 10c/20t was, but the loss gaming perf for the extra 2 cores wasn't worth for an already troublesome platform
$600 price diff for literally losing performance
9900K is a valid successor, half the price, double the perf
ez gg
9980XE ultra useless, still troublesome platform and stuffs
safe prism
top HEDT
the problem with it is heat/power control when OCing is completely dumb
6 series HEDT was the beginning of a very long problematic path for that highest end
which is weird because the 5 series was fine
and 5->6 was a minor shift
550W power draw at 90% OC cap 
6 series didn't have much of power issues as much as heat, having a stable 100% cap OC meant lightening the load on the memory controller.
e.g. DDR4-3200 would nail it at 90+C, and 70-ish at idle, had to lower to like 2666 iirc just to hold up, which you just lose any sort of gain by doing that.
was a big joke
that AND most mobos couldn't even deliver enough clean power for stability either
queen mango
queen mango
HEDT sounds like a hit-or-miss when it's placed like that..
queen mango
Oh man..
safe prism
it's just Xeon E5/W chips with desktop features and you're allowed to OC it, not that you should.
this is why the 9900K makes me happy
queen mango
I deffo don't wanna be buying laptops with Xeon cores anytime soon
safe prism
it's not HEDT, it's same desktop platform they've been winning with
and threadripper wins for anyone who benefitted from not having desktop
safe prism
i9 isn't strictly HEDT anymore so
serene talon
is VR chat not responding/ black screening/ randomly loading you into empty instances of rooms you joined that had many people?
safe prism
9980XE, which is 18c36t, 3.0GHz w/ turbo to 4.2GHz, $2000 new
vs 2990WX, which is 32c64t, 3.0GHz w/ turbo to 4.2GHz, $1700 new
like
and per-core is similar if not better on threadripper
inland marsh
For me, VR chat always get disconnected without reason...
serene talon
I've been trying to figure it out for an hour, this issue has been repetitive.
queen mango
Man, so much computer-stuff to consider
Not to mention the issues regarding that stuff
Or maybe the probability that they could bork
umbral oracle
Black screen in some instance often stays for that instance so you have to switch to a different one is my guess @serene talon
The black screen I think happens if the master/host/server for that world isn't responding. Seen it sometimes work on a second or third try but sometimes it is just crashed
tiny ginkgo
Don't worry @queen mango come sit with me and enjoy some good food
I don't have computer trouble munch
safe marsh
That hasn't happened for me for the longest time, ever since the ddos claim i think
queen mango
I dunno.. I also have a profession to consider, probably accounting-related
But yeah.. pretty stressful just thinking of computers
safe prism
nuhh
queen mango
Oh?
safe prism
literally, don't spend abhorrent amounts of cash on them, use pcpartpicker, and you can't really fuck up
it's only at the highest end that it's all fast and loose
glossy wharf
Computers are the favorite thing for me to build, play around with and co, but they also give me anger issues with every windows update
safe prism
99% of people don't need them
safe prism
c:
tiny ginkgo
You can still sit and eat with me right? I stole some food from some dragon's fridge. It's munch delicious
Oh and regarding computers.. Okano is right.. You can do a setup that over performs for pretty much anything you need rather easy
glossy wharf
You did what 
tiny ginkgo
I usually buy stuff that's a year or two old to save money and you get a ton of performance very cheap
And you slept in @glossy wharf.. so I had to feed myself.. You look very cute when you sleep so I didn't want to wake you heehee
queen mango
Hmm.. looking through PinoyPartsPicker, I found one that costs within Php 40,000
PC specs are:
CPU: Core i5-8500 = P11,350.00
Motherboard: Gigabyte B360M = P4,000.00
RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V 2x4GB 2800MHz = P4,400.00
HDD: WD Caviar Blue 1TB = P2,200.00
Graphics Card: Zotac GTX 1060 Mini 3GB = P13,000
Power Supply: Seasonic S12ii-520 = P2,850.00
Case: Tecware Nexus M TG (Black) = P1,550.00
Total Price: Php 39,350.00
Prices for all those may go down as time goes by..
tiny ginkgo
They will without a doubt
twin jacinth
is that your budget or can you up it a little?
I'd get 1060 6GB, i8600k and 16GB Ram Tbh
That'd make it pretty good
tiny ginkgo
That's cheap for something that's great. I mean it can be better always but it's pretty much the same setup i Have