Like, make the entire characters body move if it detects a laughing sound
#vrchat-general-2
vocal shard
I guess it would result in distorted desktop display though
Since it's trying to input to a nonexistent hmd
dawn pecan
You could earn a lot of money and get VR I guess
vocal shard
Yeah I'd have to upgrade along
If I make it past this school year well I might get some good money
dawn pecan
It's a bit difficult, but everything is life is. See it as a game
vocal shard
Around 2 to 4k
dawn pecan
That's good
vocal shard
But it still needs me to pass
And hell
Tfw going into the scientific path to not memorize history and you get bombarded with four history books
dawn pecan
That's school. There's a lot of boring information even in interesting fields. Just use their shitty technical terms and tell them what they want to know and you should do well
vocal shard
Yeah you're right
It's annoying that I need to learn things I dont need and don't have to learn at all
Like I understand math, physics and chemistry
dawn pecan
Yeah, you can forget it again after school though
vocal shard
But literature?
I wouldn't have a problem if it didnt affect my percentage
Failing by one grade can fuck me up
dawn pecan
I didn't even like math after school. They lied to us trying to make things easier. Like saying that a polynomial might not have a solution (but really it will have 2 solutions in the form +-ib or something)
vocal shard
Virgin number system vs chad letter system
dawn pecan
Thanks
vocal shard
when will Vrchat be on multiple cores?
lucky for you, vrchat is already on multiple cores
It runs like its only on one core
some components run on one core (like dynamic bone) but vrchat is running on multiple cores
why is it still lagging then?
because a lot of stuff arent properly optimized
tacit plank
Unity is kind of bad, most avatars aren't made properly, sound and networking is kind of expensive, etc
thick rivet
people need to check the "distant deactivate" or I don't know what it's called before importing character
thick rivet
(dynamic bones, that is)
vocal shard
i'm pretty sure the max distance is also 6 meters
tacit plank
In software like this, one should use advanced algorithms for different calculations. Most programmers can't do things like that
vocal shard
past that and dyn bone will stop working
tacit plank
Default distance is 20 units. I don't know much much that is in meters though. Probably around 15?
tacit plank
Oh, strange
vocal shard
vrchat is enforcing his own values
thick rivet
can't blame them. There's a huge heavy book about algorithm
vocal shard
like the update is forced to 60
tacit plank
Maybe it's scaled by avatars... I mean, the sound is. If your arms are too short, it's hard to hear people
thick rivet
There's still something I don't get : how can people manage to make giant avatars ? They don't bypass the SDK limitations with hacks, do they ?
vocal shard
with hacks?
tacit plank
Algorithms are just hard! To properly optimize code, you will also have to code in assembler or C, which means that you will be handling all memory yourself, and that exploits will appear if you don't do it properly
vocal shard
it^s not hack
it's literally a line of code
saying "if avatar > 6 meters - throw error"
tacit plank
The SDK code is not compiled. It's like changing a config file
vocal shard
remove that line or make the number bigger and boom
giant avatar
which is dumb
the minimum and maximum limit is there for a reason
if you go above or below those limits
the menu can and will glitch out
preventing your from selecting stuff inside the menu
since you won't be able to see it
tacit plank
At times I can see why somebody would go below. But above will just annoy others
vocal shard
the minimum size allowed is 20 centimeters
which is really fucking small
if you are on desktop and go bellow that
your menu will be under you
thick rivet
Well I made a fighter jet avatar and put him at the highest Y position within the limit. It's actually enough, so no need to bypass that
tacit plank
It is pretty small, but maybe you want to make something small or flat, I guess.
Like that police chalk outline that I saw some time ago
It's also annoying when somebody rips an entire game world from some videogame and change their avatar to it. Not only does it lag, it takes up like half of japan town and you have to find out who to block
vocal shard
1 month before the game got really popular
if 1k people or more played at the same time
the server would usually scuff
and everyone was disconnected
at that time a random asshole uploaded a 5 million polys minas tirith model and crashed the upload server for several minutes
thick rivet
Speaking of avatars, I'm still looking for a Chuck Norris avatar x)
thick rivet
not really, but at least not too cartoony
tacit plank
Must have been a big model
I got a 7.3 million poly model into a world some time ago, no issues. It's over 60MB of polygons though
thick rivet
60MB ? Dude it's 3 times bigger than the Home Map XD
rough pulsar
Good lord, 7.3 mil is a lot. D:
For high poly sculpts, that's reasonable. In unity? 😱
tacit plank
It's a high poly sculpt. It took Unity more than 10 minutes to import it though, and it split it into 123 or so meshes
On sketchfab, the URL ends with models/5b3ffeb8a36a410185d4d2c91f1e53bb
But it's NSFW so I'm not going to link it in here
inner cape
umbral reef
Shit man- I read your ( ) stuff as send furry models and was about to roast your ass in BM
quartz basin
You only see what you want to see.
feral trellis
Is there a place I can just add a model to my account without having to set it up. I'm really bad with the computer and have no idea what I'm doing. I've seen tutorials and copied them exact, they work. But when I find different models they just refuse to upload.
quartz basin
You always need to upload them via Unity. If you can find models as unitypackage you're good to go.
feral trellis
Is there a place for that? I just want to kind of click and go 😛
ruby needle
If you dont really want to do something your self then always remember that you can favorite 3 Avatars from pedestrals to switch into at any time too 
feral trellis
Oh really? How could I do that?
vocal shard
If you find an avatar from a world that you like to use, open your avatar menu and press favorite, while you are using that avatar. You can then switch back to it whenever you want
feral trellis
Okay that's awesome thanks.
I was going to teach myself how to do everything but I know it would take me forever lol.
vocal shard
it's actually fairly quick to learn
Making one yourself does seem overwhelming at first, but it's still worth it to learn imo, and it's not as hard as it seems
especially with all the tools and tutorials now
To be fair, I made a giant avatar with makehuman targets and it imported in vrc just fine
But then I guess it wasnt that giant?
feral trellis
Well I did manage to upload the ones in tutorials but when it comes to another model I seem to get issues that I don't know how to fix. I'll learn it eventually I guess
floral jolt
Guys I have a question about Custom Avatars
vocal shard
Aha
floral jolt
I created a Venom Avatar and I saw Youtubers with like tentacled Fingers Venom How do I do dat?
floral jolt
I searched youtube
vocal shard
I think you should place a dynamic bones component on your palm
feral trellis
Something about polygons I think It's been a while since I last tried.
vocal shard
Dynamic bones are responsible for skirt physics and whatnot
floral jolt
thanks Rin
vocal shard
Welcome
And @feral trellis vrchat only imports models below 20,000 polygons
Your model probably had too many
feral trellis
Yeah that was the problem. I see characters that are wayyyy more detailed in VR chat though.
vocal shard
Using the CATS tool in blender helps drop the poly count without risking detail on some models
feral trellis
Ah, so I'd have to learn blender aswell as unity?
vocal shard
Some models also have extra meshes and invisible parts that are left over from the modelling process
No no
CATS is a very easy tool
Click click and you're done
queen mango
He meant Blender as a whole
vocal shard
It used to be much harder
Ah yeah you do need to know the basics
Like how to select a model and how to add plugins
feral trellis
Ah okay, sorry for been a pain! haha I'm really bad with graphic editing software.
feral trellis
Yeah, it is.
vocal shard
But once you follow a tutorial on blender it'll be easy
vocal shard
There's an info graphic on these
feral trellis
I may just get a random model that's really simple and work my way around it. But I need time to do that. I work like 12 hour days so I've never really got time to learn lol
queen mango
Holy crap, they're everywhere!
floral aspen
I think the blender UI is getting changed in the next update
sterile drift
Please organize that LOL
vocal shard
I worked my way around by taking a simple humanoid skeleton without a mesh and painting things to it
sterile drift
@vocal shard That's painful to look at lmao
floral aspen
Eevee is supposed to be a major update
queen mango
feral trellis
I'll try that then Rin, thanks for the help!
vocal shard
Documenting it into a table would be equally difficut
feral trellis
Also, if I'm adding clothes/weapons to an avatar, would that be in blender or unity? Just so I know where to look.
vocal shard
As in toggleable props or permanent parts of the avatar?
floral aspen
props are added in unity
vocal shard
If permanent parts you need blender
floral aspen
like if you want to be able to draw a sword or pull a gun
umbral reef
You rig/fix everything within blender
But you set up animations and particles within Unity
feral trellis
Ah okay makes sense! 😄
umbral reef
Blender = avatar
Unity = Animations
vocal shard
Also I mastered the art of extreme decimation
feral trellis
Thanks for the help/advice guys. Appricate it.
vocal shard
Made an avatar that was about 200 polys
Decimated it to 20,000
Doesn't look completely like trash
umbral reef
I managed to get a 70K to 20K without any struggle or ruining anything at all really
vocal shard
Well mine's clothes clip
Everywhere
But it still is fairly decent
If I stand still
queen mango
I feel, envious.
umbral reef
Thats weight paint though
vocal shard
Weight is ok
But overlapping polys clip because of holes
And the waist has a gap in it for some reason...
wheat moth
Good morning, peeps
queen mango
Good evening, Garret
vocal shard
Good mornin garret
celest swift
oi
wheat moth
I made clones of myself last night, but discord wont let me post it lol
wheat moth
that's what I was thinking
sonic verge
is it just me or world favoritting is bugged?
inner cape
Another alkali fanboi
modern sand
@sonic verge You're seeing "???" ?
modern sand
Did you merge your steam account into your vrchat account ?
modern sand
That's probably it, we're working on that !
sonic verge
oooooooh so the merging thing made the favorites go overload or somethin im guessing
rigid crescent
I wonder how many "who the hell is this?" Unfriend the name system will cause
sterile drift
lol
People know me too well as LoneEevee anyways so I wouldn't change my name.
Unless like I change my name to just "Eevee" but I'm certain that's taken by an inactive user.
sonic verge
meh why should i rename anyway
vocal shard
Terroir is a pretty rare french word
vocal shard
it's a bit more than that
there isnt any equivalent word in english
i heard that word one time in a book
nobody is using it
sonic verge
ive been using this username for like a decade and a half
median basalt
I initially created this username to evade a ban on a San Andreas Multiplayer server lmao
That was in 2006 or 2007
odd prawn
what massive unit added these emoji
neon flume
I made this username a few years back because my previous username was grunt grunt 😳
I really liked the Halo series, I thought the Grunt aliens were cute, and grunt was already taken.
rigid crescent
Mines the name of a robot in an old anime, it's an alternate one I started using since my old one got boring
ruby burrow
I ended up with this name for VR-Chat only, since multiple variations of Squid were taken, and my brother was going by the name of 'Crunchy in the game already.
umbral reef
i found it sounded funny and looked dope so i picked it
My old username was That random guy and well... It got hard using that name after a while 👀
ruby burrow
So I thought it might be fun to match his theme.
And it has been. When people greet me they say my name like I'm a puppy. It feels good.
umbral reef
Wait your not a pet @ruby burrow 
ruby burrow
I could be.
umbral reef
Owmy
ruby burrow
The only problem with the name, is that people sometimes protest my name is a lie. That I'm not squishy enough. (Flat chest problems...)
sterile drift
I decided to go with the name "LoneEevee" as a throwaway name since I didn't think I'd be playing the game for long.
Plus like
It was my Steam name at the time
Actually uhh
Nvm
It was because it was my Steam name
ruby burrow
Oh, and also people with FBT and giant avatars like to try and step on me.
sterile drift
Bc you're squishy?
rough pulsar
I'm what happens when you hit the random page link on wikipedia 7 times.
sterile drift
LOL
ruby burrow
Hah, nice.
sterile drift
Gallium is that literally your only reason
rough pulsar
Yep.
sterile drift
That's beautiful
rough pulsar
That's how I got this username.
sterile drift
Rokk's reason is great too
ruby burrow
Well, it kinda works honestly.
sterile drift
Mine is just like
vocal shard
low melting point metal
sterile drift
"Because I had it"
vocal shard
but how did he have it in the first place ?
sterile drift
I was playing on a Steam account for like a month, meanwhile my Steam name was LoneEevee
So I made my name on VRChat "LoneEevee" because my current group of friends at the time knew me as that.
I always used a Braixen model from a world and they just couldn't unhear my voice coming from that
opaque hawk
All my friends just know me by my voice because I tend to have a new avatar every week and I just can’t stick to one.
opaque hawk
Ye, it patches a lot of stuff
The most recent build push fixes one arm vr menus which is really helpful.
vocal shard
wth just disconnected...
rigid crescent
Oh it fixed the dc issues apparently. I thought that was on my end since i didn't hear anyone else mention it
ruby burrow
I've been having constant DC issue lately as well, but also assumed it was just down to my internet being really shitty lately, because it has regardless of VRC.
vocal shard
the hangout house player is stupid
median basalt
@opaque hawk wait, you can use menus with just one controller now?
I wonder how many one armed players play this game
I'm guessing before this update they would have to put their one controller out of range and switch to the hands-free menu
ruby burrow
You've been able to use menu's with only one controller for ages. Or at least since I started playing the game.
vocal shard
when you open the menu with the left hand, the menu will follow that hand
ruby burrow
They've just apparently fixed something regarding it. Dunno what.
vocal shard
and you need the other hand to select stuff
ruby burrow
No, if you only have one controller the menu doesn't follow, and allows you to use the same controller to select stuff.
Oh wait. I misunderstood what both you meant I think.
vocal shard
playing with one controller 🤔
ruby burrow
I'm assuming this update was talking about playing with one controller, not using the menu with only one whilst still having two.
median basalt
I think the bug was that if you only had one controller, the game would still have the menu stick to your hand making it impossible to use.
And now, much like desktop mode and hands-free VR, it just spawns the menu in front of you
ruby burrow
Perhaps. I only knew the feature existed since I've occasionally started the game with just one turned on, and then tried to use the menu before realising, and noticed how it has a solo controller mode.
median basalt
The game accommodates a surprising amount of control schemes
ruby burrow
It's always worked the rare few times I've used it. Dunno when or for how long it broke.
Nice feature for those missing an arm, or stuck in a cast for a while.
I remember seeing a screenshot of someone who had changed their model to be wearing a cast, after they broke their arm, to replicate the effect in game.
median basalt
@ruby burrow oh yeah lol
ruby burrow
Ripple effects?
median basalt
I knew someone who had to go without hand controllers temporarily and he put his avatar in a straitjacket
vocal shard
when im walkingnaround
median basalt
Oh yeah, that's the Oculus ASW messing up
vocal shard
there is a whole bunch of ripple effects.
median basalt
Mine does that too at low framerates
vocal shard
ASW??
median basalt
My hand "tears apart" while walking
It's a smoothing technique for sub-90 framerates but it doesn't work very well currently
They're fixing it
vocal shard
hm
median basalt
If you're on Oculus, make sure you turn all that stuff off in SteamVR at least
vocal shard
you have the safety system
sterile drift
Safety System is good enough
vocal shard
it's a lot already
sterile drift
Dude like I think the concept of the safety system is enough for people to stop crashing
"Oh I gotta keep my rank up"
Lol
opaque hawk
@median basalt the issue was you couldn’t tell what you were pointing at with one controller
median basalt
Ohh
woven stone
bruh, Trust system doesn't do shit vs Modified client crashes LOL
"good enough"
gotta agree with Grim here
vocal shard
A lot is to do with unity... Security will probably be better once they upgrade unity versions
woven stone
a lot can be done if they'd just limit SDK and unity to the point people couldn't fuck around with it
everyone who wanna cry about limitations, tell them its not the devs who are at fault, its the people abusing the open freedom of creativity
umbral reef
Nah- Can never stop crashers
woven stone
don't give a fuck, limitation is the only way
upbeat pulsar
hmm
umbral reef
Just need one shader to nuke a room
vocal shard
they already removed a lot of stuff because people abused it
woven stone
they need to remove more
umbral reef
Or we cant use anything but default unity shaders anymore :^)
umbral reef
@woven stone Id say start making a nice list of all things that need to be gone
woven stone
dont point fingers at me, but at those abusing it
umbral reef
Lets see what stays
vocal shard
how do you guys get crashed so often tho... O.o
woven stone
beeing a public figure, thats how
opaque hawk
Truth be told this game has a long way to go, especially for deaf and players with spd
umbral reef
A social game within VR for deaf people 
Im fairly sure they cant do shit about that without adding some really advance things
vocal shard
Idk... I play on public's, but stay out of the pres room and pug and haven't been crashed in a long time. Safety settings all off
same
opaque hawk
I imagine separating gestures may allow people to use asl
woven stone
Never saw one of you guys, but I bet you saw my Hoppous running around
umbral reef
And if someone has SPD putting a bright screen is never smart...
Also- The odds of having an SPD version where just sound/light triggers it is fairly rare to my experience
woven stone
I get feedback on a daily basis about some of em getting crashed
umbral reef
Mainly if they have everything else in there life going right
Guess you dont see is because you dont need support within this discord with anything...
As thats mainly what we do within the community
Ow and get yelled, insulted and so on for doing so
And being made the enemy number one by some communites
woven stone
@umbral reef made enemy number one by some communities? I can't follow your thought process, care to rephrase the bit you just wrote
Our blocklist has over 200 entries of unique accounts, not counting in alt accounts of people etc, some go up in the 30-40+ alternative accounts.
umbral reef
Tl;dr
We help a lot of users within this community (Users like Svel and Jamie)
Because most people within this game are stuck up people and think they are extremely important because they run X community we often clash
That results in us getting plenty of angry users in dm's or being annoyed in other discords
vocal shard
woven stone
who is "us" lol
umbral reef
I'd say get active within this discord on a daily basis and you will find out fast
This discord is 70% the same ~12 people
woven stone
I mostly read through it, but most of the things aren't really interesting for myself tbh.
I only care about more security, everything else is secondary from my point of view
woven stone
... did I miss something, where is something blowing up
umbral reef
Best way to get that going is by causing drama TBH
The only times some exploits got removed is once it got abused in a bad way and then brought to light 👀
woven stone
its just a casual discussion lol
woven stone
it is possible to make it extremely hard and punish it fast
remove clients from local and put them server sided
median basalt
There is no way to stop crashing without taking away literally all freedoms
umbral reef
Preventing stuff like logging out and ect is a must done...
But as rokk said
woven stone
then take it away
median basalt
Taking away avatars in a game where 80% of the content is avatars
Quick way to kill the game dead
sterile drift
How to stop crashing: Make everyone Nikei
median basalt
Like immediately
woven stone
Modified client crashing > Avatar crashing just for your information
median basalt
You suggest we all only stick to the public avatars then?
umbral reef
@woven stone There is a game called Rec Room 👀
sterile drift
No one is allowed to upload anything anymore
woven stone
modded clients are a big ass problem
sterile drift
yUH
median basalt
Paying for uploads is even worse
sterile drift
^
woven stone
paying for uploads would be great
sterile drift
Paying for uploads will just turn this into Second Life VR
woven stone
use the money to have more mods running around
median basalt
You must not be a very prolific creator then @woven stone
umbral reef
It would ruin the game
analog osprey
@vocal shard don’t even go there. People will spend thousands to crash
median basalt
"I only use pedestals so I'm not affected, let's fuck the game up so I crash 10% less"
umbral reef
How?
sterile drift
@woven stone Are you saying people can pay to be a mod?!
median basalt
You don't really get a say on those matters if you are not even the slightest bit affected
umbral reef
Fairly sure a big chunk of the avatar community would just yeet out
woven stone
Because those would just put in more and more money and give a domino effect into it
umbral reef
New users come here daily asking for uploading
You think they will keep playing if we tell them to pay for it?
woven stone
@median basalt I would be affected and my community would be too
median basalt
You think trolls won't drop the slightest bit of money on crashy stuff?
umbral reef
And no?
umbral reef
That is NOT how a company works
analog osprey
More money and also a lot of the avatar makers getting the middle finger
umbral reef
More money =/= faster development time
sterile drift
True
Just bc they have more money doesn't mean they'll automatically put it to good use
Or make anything faster
median basalt
Remember when they got those millions from HTC and basically nothing happened
median basalt
Lol
umbral reef
It takes months for developers to be fully working within a team
woven stone
but faster punishement
sterile drift
L O L
median basalt
It's funny you think they would spend money on moderation
woven stone
more bans
median basalt
We do need better moderation though
sterile drift
Hoppu you have no idea what you're talking about
analog osprey
You don’t understand
median basalt
We shouldn't be restricting freedoms, we should just more quickly get crashers banned
sterile drift
You're basically saying this game needs hitmen.
median basalt
The moderation system right now is "send email to this address"
umbral reef
Wont dissagree we need ebtter mods but there are a billion systems that work better then payed mods
median basalt
That would be a disaster in this game
sterile drift
@vocal shard Why not play Second Life if that's the case.
woven stone
@sterile drift every goddamn game has GM's VRC needs em too
umbral reef
@vocal shard Stealing and selling avatars not your own is already a big problem within this community
sterile drift
It's got that and creative freedom
median basalt
I already had talks with some professional "creators" who outright said they would be using game ripped models and ask money for them
woven stone
people who scout lobbies and ban cheaters
median basalt
This is a fairly big creator btw
sterile drift
@woven stone That's not the point.
analog osprey
What if THEY get crashed
sterile drift
You're saying VRChat should just instantly reach out and hire more moderators
And the problem would be magically solved?
Well
Instantly isn't what I meant
But
woven stone
lol no, but banning people on a rapid pace
sterile drift
You're implying that
umbral reef
But does that directly need money?
sterile drift
Nope
umbral reef
^^
sterile drift
They're working because they enjoy helping out the community.
They don't do it for the money
analog osprey
They are doing it so the community is better
sterile drift
They have their own jobs
analog osprey
They actually care about vrc
woven stone
and?
umbral reef
And look at the current 'rightfull' banning that happens
A mod team that is made out of volunteers could work imo
sterile drift
They ACTUALLY care about VRChat and its growth
woven stone
why put "rightfull" in
umbral reef
Because there are an shit ton of unright bans in this game 👀
woven stone
Growth can come if toxicity is gone
umbral reef
Can spend a few hours scolling and make a list of peeps being banned unfairly
woven stone
@umbral reef show me, lol
analog osprey
There will always be toxicity
sterile drift
If VRChat just hired any plain ol' person they're risking having someone who just dishes out bans because they feel like it
woven stone
"unfairly" more like "i dont agree but they did break TOS"
like the guy impersonating pill "YEAH BUT IT WAS FOR LULZ" get banned, rightfully so
leaden fox
kda akali > all other kda skins
woven stone
if you cant play by the rules, go play black desert online
umbral reef
If you need me to find proof or an example just look up the Kanna gang stuff on google
Biggest thing i know is publicly spread
analog osprey
@woven stone vrc and black desert are very different games
sterile drift
lol
woven stone
they are making amends now, but back then they were toxic as fuck
analog osprey
That would be like moving from WOW to nerf guns
umbral reef
Plenty shares modded clients and used bad avatars
analog osprey
One hacker in the group
umbral reef
So plenty where rightfully banned
leaden fox
basically people were going around as the kanna gang models and doing bad stuff and they associated the kanna gang with bad stuff
umbral reef
Might have been one hacker but plenty of peeps used his shit lmao
woven stone
distribution of crashes ontop of encouraging hatespeech
umbral reef
Setting up a 'Brand ambasader' system should not be to hard...
They managed to do it on discord
woven stone
Kanna gang made a turn and banned those guys and tried their best to reform, but when the bans happened they were all justified
sterile drift
You implied it lol
analog osprey
What tools?
woven stone
or just hard wipe the game with a unity engine update
umbral reef
if it ever gets out
sterile drift
@woven stone I mean doesn't every game have hackers at some point? VRChat isn't any different
vocal shard
@umbral reef with how long they take with it, i'm pretty sure they aretaking all the precautions so people cant fuck with it
so it's going to be very limited.
also UDON is still a myth
umbral reef
Well- They better as if anything can go wrong the odds of it being insanely bad are large
astral cliff
Everyone just seems to be going off at each other so I thought it was some good ol' bloodbowl
umbral reef
As most unity stuff can just cause crashing or an error here or there at worse
An third party things being impleneted is well.. It fully depends on how properly they did it
vocal shard
people go off at each other when someone is suggesting something absurd
woven stone
@sterile drift jo you can't think about it the same way, VRC hackers are like a majority of players, not some super small part.
Ontop of crashing a fucking game, how many games you know a cheater can crash
analog osprey
Overwatch
woven stone
🤔
sterile drift
M A J O R I T Y
woven stone
it is
sterile drift
Not even close
sterile drift
Doesn't mean they're hackers L O L
woven stone
it makes now difference, you pull a gun and shoot
analog osprey
Bold to assume most of vrc has private avatars
woven stone
if you made the gun yourself or got it from someone doesn't make a fucking difference
umbral reef
Not like there are prefabs of crash stuff all over the interwebs if you search hard enough
sterile drift
Hackers are people who have modified the game
umbral reef
Or join the right groups
gleaming patio
Usually its like a very vocal minority of players
sterile drift
If you assume people who made avatars are modifying the game
Then everyone's a hacker
lawl
sterile drift
Yeh
umbral reef
@gleaming patio Most of this userbase is fairly immature, gets angry fast, does not mind insulting or witch hunting and ect
analog osprey
No
analog osprey
Using and having are two different things
gleaming patio
@umbral reef somehow to me it was always a very vocal minority
vocal shard
Let's be civil when discussing stuff, no need to start calling people names now.
sterile drift
Hoppou, you may think there's a large amount of hackers and such, but you're very wrong. It's a very insignificant number of players.
sterile drift
Same with crashers
umbral reef
@gleaming patio There is still a big part of friendly bunches but they mainly hide in there own corners of the world
sterile drift
There aren't really many people with them
analog osprey
Weed is legal where I am
gleaming patio
Makes me sad when i see most players being in private instances
woven stone
i said drugs in general, you know what I meant
gleaming patio
Tbh
umbral reef
If im with my group or jumping worlds making friends i often forget or dont realize users are like this...
Then i spend a day in here and welp 👀
woven stone
and you get more public instances
I said they are AS guilty
please get it right
both should be punished
umbral reef
@analog osprey Dutch or canada?
vocal shard
Currently, just Hoppou to someone. So just saying that out there.
umbral reef
Or some US state 👀
analog osprey
Canada
umbral reef
Right now they need to fix the logout crashing and stuff
woven stone
at least we can agree on that
sterile drift
VRChat does need less crashers, but the Safety System already does a good job in negating the effects.
^
woven stone
if you are that nitpicky
umbral reef
And a proper report system imo
woven stone
if you think I didn't I say it now
sterile drift
You know what you said before
Grim, was that directed towards me?
Ehh either way
The Safety System lets you choose what you can see from other people's avatars
woven stone
stop beeing nitpicky, here I correct myself:
"People who are hacking the game, or people who are using the work of a hacker to use crashes or modifed clients in the game are both bad and I can't see a difference in those 2, both should be banned"
sterile drift
You can still see other people's avatars, just not certain features
ruby burrow
This argument in a nutshell...
Hackers =/= Script Kiddies =/= Crashers
sterile drift
People who use maximum settings are just wimps
umbral reef
@granite coral Being this nit picky just makes the conversation go into annoyed and triggered people so might want to drop that act...
We are all against the same things here just in diffrent ways and working towards the same goal is smarter 👀
woven stone
@ruby burrow all going against the rules, all should be punished
🤷
I have everything disabled for non friends, except for voice
still get crashed, the safety system is a placebo
umbral reef
Crashed or logged out?
sterile drift
I doubt there's a way to show a shader when it's disabled.
umbral reef
Plenty dont or claim they do but dont so just checking
ruby burrow
A person with a crash gun is not a hacker, they are a crasher.
A person with a modded client is not a hacker, they are a script kiddy.
A person that actively hacks or creates modded clients is a hacker, and a prime scumbag.
woven stone
logged out is somethign that is tied to photon systems
sterile drift
And how exactly would that work?
analog osprey
That would be using a script to do that
woven stone
so you actually have to disable the avatar
not the shaders
or you just get clapped
umbral reef
@granite coral Hacking, crashing, its all bad shit and that is what he meant
Being nitpicky only resulted in more miscommunitycation and wasted time so...
And there are big groups of 'vengance crashers' that dont crash users randomly but only stealers and other crashers...
woven stone
@granite coral damn you need to be so nitty picky boi, I was wrong with the statement and meant the same thing you said right now at the end of your sentence
ruby burrow
If I understand correctly, those work via a mesh crash, that you are only protected from by the shader preventing it rendering or some such. So if you disable them, it hits you.
woven stone
@umbral reef fighting fire with fire is also bad, never do that, revenge crashing is as bad as crashing
ruby burrow
So as stated, you need to disable the entire avatar.
woven stone
its just the cold war problem
why not arm everyone
so noone fights
until 1 guy flips and a domino effect starts
very very bad way to go
umbral reef
@woven stone I reported 'friends' (like facebook style friends) for doing that shit
Im against any time of crashing or stealing for any reason
woven stone
I do the same
ruby burrow
Agreed. Vigilante crashing is childish and pointless. Only fuels the fire.
It encourages both sides to design more malicious crashes in retaliation, which then get used on innocents also.
woven stone
problem is, they can just come back to the game over n over because nothing stops them from creating more and more accounts,
IF they even get banned in the first place
umbral reef
It wont
umbral reef
@granite coral Depends how dumb the other user is
sterile drift
Not like a paid service
woven stone
@granite coral i have a list of almost 90+ alt accounts of people that are banned atm
care to do that again
and I am talking about unique people
not single accounts
ruby burrow
I've reported an alt account or two. It's always fun when you see a familiar avatar and barely changed nameplate.
umbral reef
@woven stone Most of the users being reported need more then one report or take long to get banned
It all really comes back to them being unable to handle the flood of msgs they get
woven stone
imo its just a big ass mess
ruby burrow
Because they scumbags that can't just play the game normally, and insist on using it as some kind of egotistic gang war simulator.
rigid crescent
Not all crashes show up in the log either :0
rigid crescent
So it's kinda hard to keep all of them detected
woven stone
with doing bad shit
rigid crescent
It's a combination of most people not reporting, not all crashes showing up in the log, and lack of proof to begin with
And lack of moderation resources on the team's side
umbral reef
Its the same with shitty worlds being published
They cant handle the amount they have
woven stone
hire mods that do nothing but scout lobbies
sterile drift
But then that's no fun
woven stone
its fun if I can run around without having to be paranoid about every single person joining a lobby
and cross checking lists
to make sure they are not dangerous
umbral reef
@vocal shard Having a fulltime employe is expensive
Its insanely expensive, if they want to use the money they have properly and not piss off investors there are cheaper ways
sterile drift
Sure I'd love to be a moderator for this game but I don't really wanna like consider this my job at the same time. I just wanna play, meet people, w/e
umbral reef
And as i stated before- This can all be done by one or two payed employee's
All without insane problems
(Just take a peek at the discord chat mods)
sterile drift
The Discord chat mods do this because they love what they do, not because they're getting paid.
umbral reef
Cant say all discord mods are great but that is mainly because a big part is inactive
woven stone
True, who cares about fancy upgrades and cute colored nameplates if the core problem is that the game isn't fucking fun to play if you can't even have fun
without having to constantly look behind your back
ruby burrow
I feel like one of the better routes at the moment, would be to improve the in game reporting tools.
umbral reef
@ruby burrow They need more users to check reports though then
rough flax
This channel right now 
🍿
woven stone
fix the core issues so crashes can't happen in the first place is ofc the best course of action
umbral reef
We are legit circle jerking 
rough flax
Maybe, JUST MAYBE.
woven stone
for the time beeing
rough flax
If you guys would test the betas and report bugs maybe they wouldn't be pushed to live where everyone complains
ruby burrow
Just like when blocking someone, simply adding a button to select a user and report from a pre-defined list of reasons. It would auto submit the logs, and maybe take a few screenshots. These would be low priority reports ignored individually, but investigated if they build up.
sterile drift
@rough flax Reverse the order of OMEGALUL and the Popcorn
rough flax
🍿
woven stone
@rough flax bugs.... we talking crashing n modified clients here
sterile drift
There you go
woven stone
who cares if the sound is fucking broken
rough flax
That's not a bug. That's technically an exploit.
woven stone
that shit will be fixed a patch later
rigid crescent
Honestly there's already baddies higher up, hiring more mods can cause problems too,especially ones within the community
sterile drift
And searching outside the community is even more dangerous
woven stone
@granite coral wanna go nitpicky again, we both know that at the core, the game is nothing but a mess.
Lets get over those mini differences we have
umbral reef
@rigid crescent I been part of two communites that where fully moderated by 1 or two payed employee and a army of free workers
sterile drift
You don't know who's out there, what they're like
rigid crescent
I already know a few on bad terms with some chat mods socially.
sterile drift
Especially in an online setting
rigid crescent
Oh i meant people I know ingsme lol
sterile drift
Yea
ruby burrow
I'm now imagining unintentional bugs breaking peoples favourite crash methods, and all the crashers getting salty that there's no way to complain about it.
sterile drift
I'll just delete that
umbral reef
@sterile drift Why? Anyone with a brain and who is active can realize that
rigid crescent
For example lets say all chat mods were made into ingame mods. That's a lot of power to give to community members on a social game.
sterile drift
I'm just being super careful at this point
sterile drift
N o
rough flax
@sterile drift screenshotted. @mods
ruby burrow
Another very soft side remedy for this situation by the way, is simply to promote an actively anti crasher culture within the game.
umbral reef
Wathcout eevee- You will get put on /the/ list
woven stone
@ruby burrow just gets you targeted
sterile drift
Boutta get RAM crashed
rigid crescent
What if Advert ( first person on the list ) doesn't like me, eevee, and squishy? He can follow us just to find a minor infraction
rough flax
There's still other ways of crashing besides the usual
umbral reef
Lmao we had matsix earlier in here asking for help with reporting and crashers @ruby burrow
ruby burrow
It often seems like more people than I'd expect, see a crash tool getting demo'd, and are just like, "Oh cool".
sterile drift
I got used in an example? 👀
umbral reef
Crashers give no fucks
rigid crescent
Your name was in the chat lol
ruby burrow
And I'm left watching from the side thinking, "What on Earth do you find cool about that?"
rigid crescent
I've already been informed that making s joke to a friend that someone else can find offensive is bannable
woven stone
@rigid crescent then don't make offensive jokes around people you don't know
...
what is so hard about that
just treat VRC like real life
rigid crescent
If I say "Lol nice scuffed avatar nerd" to my friend and someone tske s it wrong, it's bankable
umbral reef
@rigid crescent I can go into great detail of how an system like this can be made almost perfect- Atleast just as right as when payed workers would do it
Mainly because i worked with (not for) companies who used it and got acess to the behind the stuff to this
rigid crescent
I'm not even talking things like racially charged jokes, I mean anything
woven stone
@rigid crescent hatespeech is bannable... not banter
it literally says in the goddamn loading screens
does noone read?
rough flax
Some crashers just go around crashing people, most only when someone is being annoying.
umbral reef
@woven stone Reading in 2k18
rigid crescent
Not what I was told here, I'm almost home so ill find it
umbral reef
Scotts nazi pug flashbacks
rigid crescent
Lol
sterile drift
The Great Pug did nothing wrong
woven stone
@granite coral wearing a trump mask OK
Wearing a trump mask and talking about racist things, NOT OK
umbral reef
The owner imo also not 👀 Poor count dankula
woven stone
🤷
rigid crescent
Again I'm not talking hate speech, even silly trash talk between friends is, apparently, technically bannable
umbral reef
Technically they can ban for you having the letter A in your name
woven stone
it does
umbral reef
Or not being able to beatbox
woven stone
its about context
velvet quarry
I've yet to see a case where a moderator took action without enough context
woven stone
sounds like some people just hide that they did bannable things
ruby burrow
@woven stone Also by anti crasher culture, I didn't mean going around as a evangelical vigilante preacher, but just casually putting it out there that it's looked down upon. In discussions with friends, with newbies, etc.
sterile drift
You can really get banned for whatever they feel like banning you for, it doesn't have to be right or just, but they choose to abide by their duties and only dish out proper bans.
velvet quarry
No one is perfect ofcourse, but they always take context in mind.
woven stone
sounds like you all are just fucking afraid because you all did some shit already 😄
sterile drift
L O L
umbral reef
@velvet quarry Around the user boom- There where shotgun bans of users standing next to baddies and also being banned while they themself did not take action directly
sterile drift
Wait that happened Cibbi?
woven stone
@umbral reef affiliation with hacker groups, thats a ban
umbral reef
@sterile drift More then once have users been banned for that
woven stone
I can get behind that reasoning 🤷
umbral reef
@woven stone In public worlds?
I have to say most got unbanned so far i cared to follow but still
rough flax
Who would win, 8 innocent bois clicking on a. Avatar that looks like pill, or one moderator boi.
umbral reef
Its still stupid it happened- Even if it got undone
velvet quarry
Using someone's private avatar is bannable, it may not have been immediately obvious it was a pedestal avatar at the time, a lot of people have done that maliciously.
woven stone
I dip lobbies if I even get the slightest feeling of shit happening
and again, context makes the offense clear again, thanks for that
rigid crescent
"again" :3c hm
woven stone
we met, you forgot?
rigid crescent
I can recall the situation 100% lol
rigid crescent
I should have that log still, actually
umbral reef
Also- Finally my headset arives, time to connect that stuff and play the game 👏
Or first get my avatar ingame
woven stone
sure you didn't just get kicked by someone saying he is a mod but was not, just had a client that was capable of doing so?
rigid crescent
the mod stared me in the face and did it
umbral reef
They had the modtag ingame? And if so- May i ask who it was?
umbral nova
Name
umbral reef
I aint a fan of witch hunting stuff
But there was a long time anyone could be anything ingame 👏
rigid crescent
he's still mod afaik
umbral reef
Could even list yourself as a dev
rigid crescent
naming would get me in trouble becuase witch hunting and who it is
In a friend's of guest unpublished world, mod joins (following e-girl i think), everyone is like "uhhh why's he here" and he's got his tag on. everyone does their own thing (watching livestream on a big screen since it just dropped) but some dude joins and is invisible and spamming particles and blur. mod says "guess this guy doesn't think i can see him, im gonna kick him" and said "yes please do" and he kicks me
woven stone
tahts what I mean, you can't be sure it was an official endorsed VRC employee
rigid crescent
and im guesisng he kicks he guy
rigid crescent
friends confirm he also kicked the guy doing the particle. i thought "oh, maybe he hit me by mistake or something?" but never got unbanned from the room
umbral nova
What was the man's name lol
vocal shard
getting kicked from a room will prevent you from coming back for 1 hour
umbral reef
Fairly sure they cant unban from a room as its a default 30 minute timeout
rigid crescent
he then pretended to leave knowing my friends would trash talk him, appears again, pretends to leave, friend makes an off color joke, he appears and bans him
umbral nova
Could've been instance owner
umbral reef
Ow an hour
vocal shard
i don't think the implemented a way to override it
umbral nova
Or world owner
umbral nova
Hm
vocal shard
doestn matter
umbral nova
Name please
woven stone
@vocal shard of you can override it LOL
vocal shard
still got kicked from the world technically
woven stone
its called force joining via client
umbral nova
DM name to me
rigid crescent
yeah, i was kicked and he could've just joined me and said "oh shit my bad dude" because people told him i didnt do anything
woven stone
@granite coral you were capable of doing that
umbral reef
We talking about old AF stuff you know?
woven stone
you guys are kinda clueless about what people COULD actually do it seems
rigid crescent
again this is when the livestream thing dropped
woven stone
24 hour bans were also possible
rigid crescent
so it was some time ago before people were doing the fake admin kicks/bans/logouts
umbral reef
@woven stone We where talking without 'abusing' the admins forgeting things
Like them not being able to perma ban and now they can they still display 4 years 💤
rigid crescent
but like i said, he proceeded to stalk around waiting for someone to slip up and a friend made a joke about the mod being racist and he popped up and banned him
i can find the date let me look at thel og
woven stone
🤔 who is the uninformed person, the one thinking you actually can't, or the person knowing you still can?
VRC is a mess, everything is pretty much possible at this point.
its a sad, sad mess
umbral reef
Fying them Cpu's :^)
umbral nova
CPUs getting fried? Lolno
vocal shard
they can0t kill my hamster so i'm fine
woven stone
nice memes
rigid crescent
6/29/2018 2:49:17 AM
woven stone
at that point in time it was 100% possible to do so @rigid crescent
umbral reef
@granite coral Last thing happened to me so i can confirm that
vagrant juniper
So when they going to fix the neck problem when crouched?
woven stone
and just impersonate a mod
rigid crescent
it 100% was not an impersonator
woven stone
how the fuck do you know, did you ask about a list of employees and get his account ?
rigid crescent
my friend got a week long ban from him, and others have all seen him around and know who the mod is and have had problems with him
umbral reef
Wasnt that also the time when just relogging didnt fix shit and only way to be sure your safe was to check on the website 🤔
woven stone
week long ban lol
rigid crescent
Yeah, it was a week long one for suggesting the guy who kicked me might be racist
which i guess was a racist joke
vocal shard
yo
woven stone
stupid to say something like that and give someone a reason
umbral reef
@vocal shard 😏
woven stone
could have just kept to himself and say it on another occassion or worded it without trying to make someone a racist
*look like a racist
rigid crescent
well the guy pretended to leave and went invisible waiting for even a minor issue lol he could've been following him til he got bored
umbral reef
If he was in a friends+ world it totally a valid ban lmao
Could have just as good been reported then
rigid crescent
yeah, that's why i didn't dispute it, my issue is jsut him sitting there staking them out, it just seems wrong
woven stone
or you just dont do shit and cant be held accountable
rigid crescent
simply because he doesn't like them
woven stone
but hey, might just be me that tries to stay out of stupid shit by not going against the rules
woven stone
if you know somebody with more power doesn't like you, why give them a reason to go against you then
umbral reef
Aka anything but private worlds
woven stone
exactly Oclac
woven stone
Rules for Private rooms are different
you can have a bukkake party in a private room
cant do that in a friends +
they still count as public
velvet quarry
Such things are still against the rules
rigid crescent
That's a gray area is the thing
velvet quarry
But private instances are not checked
velvet quarry
If someone reports it, there's a good chance it would be a bannable case.
ruby needle
it is
rigid crescent
There's written rules vs spoken "unwritten" rules though
woven stone
yeah, loading screen says you can't stream private room lewding, but it doesn't say anything about lewding in the first place
rigid crescent
FPaul pointed it out. THe website flat out says it's not OK, period
But tupper said it is ok in private rooms
meanwhile the loading screen is somewhat vague
umbral nova
Funny how this conversation evolved
vocal shard
I think there's a difference between something being "allowed", and not known about... Regarding bans and tos
rigid crescent
"Pornography & nudity is not allowed. " Period.
ruby needle
I belive the best ti interpret it is a toleration but as son as someone reports it you're out of luck
and it's just as fine if its someone who doesnt like you thats in the room
woven stone
sounds good
rigid crescent
So, according to the website's rules, it's against the rules even in private.
umbral reef
Well- Fairly sure thats also what the rules withn the loading screen say-
Mainly because there is no way to prove its aprivate world if its recorded and stuff
rigid crescent
The written rules.
ruby needle
Yes
rigid crescent
But according to Tupper and possibly other admin, it's ok
umbral reef
But- So far i know
And as afro has said
rigid crescent
and the ambiguous loading screen
umbral reef
They dont actively check them
rigid crescent
But if someone doesn't like you, they can. My point is that administration as already falsely spread the idea that these things are OK in private when they're technically not
umbral reef
And i know for a fact they can secretly lurk within Friends only rooms
So 👀
vocal shard
@ruby needle are you going to report me if i do some lewd stuff with ghosto ?
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Having no people moderating is the only way to solve that shit
@vocal shard Lets lewd fpaul
vocal shard
oh good idea
ruby needle
@vocal shard no need you admited it just now
rigid crescent
So if Mod A doesn't like Random Dude, he can just stalk him into private rooms where there's supposedly "no rules" to a degree, and still ban them
vocal shard
aw fuck
umbral nova
LOL
vocal shard
i played myself
vocal shard
hi
umbral nova
Garret you're missing all the fun
umbral reef
@rigid crescent That is always a problem with anyone in power, if you can solve that you got a trillion dollar idea
wheat moth
i am here now, what did i miss?
umbral reef
@vocal shard Quick lewd him so he cant report you as he would get banned himself!
That is how it works rights?!
umbral nova
At first it was an argument about hackers and crashers
Now we're talking about general moderation
woven stone
it degraded because noone tried to keep the discussion in the direction
pretty normal because in the end we can't do shit
umbral nova
Basically how things go in private instances
rigid crescent
@umbral reef Well in this specific example not really. Admin have told us multiple times 18+ stuff in Private rooms are ok while the website says we cnnot
woven stone
but hope that VRC gets its fair share of security fixes
umbral nova
Oof we're back at security?
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Im not talking about that though
Thats a completely diffrent thing
woven stone
Its the only discussion I am interested in
wheat moth
I keep myself to private rooms when I am making maps and testing out bugs in my world. Elsewise I am in public/friends
woven stone
hahaha
rigid crescent
So, in this instance, if they cleared up the rule, it wouldn't be as big of an issue and private rooms would be "safe" from moderation.
vocal shard
what security ? 
rigid crescent
My issue is mainly mods stalking people they don't like to ban them for minor infractions that they wouldn't ban others for, which would absolutely happen if communtiy members are allowed moderation. The main solution would have people who don't actually play the game do it.
but they'd eventually become community members I suppose
ruby burrow
Once in the past, I was a moderator for an unrelated community. We had one of those trigger happy power abusing types. He banned someone for flawed selfish reasons, and I stepped in to dispute the ban. The bad-mod then almost immediately banned me a more senior moderator, for arguing with a mod.
I didn't know it was possible at the time.
empty wharf
People embedded in the community are likely to have a vendetta against someone or other, anyone who plays the game is an unlikely good choice for moderation.
rigid crescent
Of course I have, it happens in anything where personal relationships are allowed to get in the way
rough flax
@ruby needle 
umbral reef
@ruby burrow Shit game making
Also you know how the system works and got the example of its flaws and can prob guess how to fix it within a second
ruby burrow
Had to face palm my way to the admin and explain the situation to get the punks powers revoked.
umbral reef
@rigid crescent I meant places where the community moderated for a company not it being abused
rigid crescent
Having people that are part of the community as moderators just doesn't work.
fallen thunder
good, do you know if the name change is already available?
empty wharf
I have experience in moderating for countless games and such, but it was only because I was known for being a mod. I was invited to mod for the game servers for a short while, because I knew no one.
umbral reef
@fallen thunder Currently not as they are working on a special name change thing
So they wont manually change them over for now
vocal shard
@fallen thunder no
umbral nova
Ah name changing, how friend lists will change
vocal shard
try in 18 months
rigid crescent
Off the top of my head, besides VRChat, there's some discords, forums I've been a part of back in the day
woven stone
ah name changing, even harder to keep track of BAD FUCKING APPLEs
umbral reef
@rigid crescent Again- i have seen it work two times on a big scale when it was directly for a company and ran my own community for ages also without moderation abuse
rigid crescent
Social things mainly.