fall back on soemthing
#vrchat-general-2
thick flare
@serene agate 870m is not even comparable to 970, which is the minimum requirement for vrchat
serene agate
I know my machine isn't ideal, but being surrounded by such unoptimized madness doesn't do me any favors. Eventually I do intend on building an actual PC eventually.
vocal shard
this is the minimum required
OS: Windows 7, Windows 8.1, Windows 10
Processor: Intel® i5-4590 / AMD FX 8350 equivalent or greater
Memory: 4 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce® GTX 970 / AMD Radeon™ R9 290 equivalent or greater
DirectX: Version 11
Network: Broadband Internet connection
Storage: 1 GB available space
so if you don't have that, you can't really complain about bad performance.
twin jacinth
The current minimum for vrc seems to be pointed towards vr users and not actually desktop as the requirement for vr is minimum 970
might be wrong though
rough pulsar
http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-970-vs-Nvidia-GTX-870M/2577vsm10421
rough comparison of 970 vs 870m
Basically, holy hell the 870m is weak in comparison
serene agate
But I know people who play and have a less powerful machine than I do. That is what really brings this unoptimization to my attention
twin jacinth
Jesus that's a big difference
serene agate
I get 30 - 40 fps with VR, even being in the Pug with 15 people, if its not too crazy at that time.
But this isn't about me personally, There are many users with similar setups to mine, or worse.
But when things are bad, I will go down to 20 fps, and it becomes less fun.
ruby needle
im ending up at 12-16 ish in filled instances
ruby burrow
The key thing for VR Chat, is that it's currently CPU bottlenecked rather than GPU bottlenecked, which is the only reason most laptops can run it at all.
serene agate
From what I understand, CPU is the bottleneck for performance in VRChat, I know my setup is not ideal, but it does indeed work fine most of the time.
If I play in Desktop mode, I will get 60+ fps @indigo iris80p with no issues.
vocal shard
you pinged a random dude called 10 
thick flare
LUL
twin jacinth
lmao
rough pulsar
To be fair, that's their problem for having such a generic username :B
ruby burrow
Basically pushing higher polys puts extra strain on the GPU which has plenty of power to spare without impacting performance.
Whilst virtually everything else puts more strain on the CPU, which hurts the game bad since it's nearly always maxed out.
vocal shard
also the minimum required for the CPU is Intel i5-4590
opaque remnant
what's ridiculous is that sometimes there will come in an avatar that takes away 10 fps, all by itself, also looking at the cache seeing files get downloaded, there are avatars that are 35mb
vocal shard
so if you dont have something equivalent, you are going to lag no matter what
serene agate
Now I have to wait for my resurrection to come back from cool down
rough pulsar
avatar data size is not a direct correlation to performance
vocal shard
seeing how your GPU is pretty low on performance, your CPU is probably the same
thick flare
larger avatar file size=slower loading time
ruby burrow
The only people hurt by sub 65k poly models, are people trying to run the game on vastly bellow spec GPUs, or integrated graphics (which are hopeless regardless).
thick flare
which does not equal to lower performance
opaque remnant
perhaps not, but there's also no need for such large filesizes needing to be downloaded
when you have little control over it
rough pulsar
Oh absolutely. Enabling crunch compression on all your avatar textures in unity reduces the size massively
ruby needle
and to be stored
opaque remnant
you can see the filesize on a world, but then it takes a few people joining with huge avatars and you go way above that
rough pulsar
Honestly it should be a warning (or over a certain total size a block) on the build panel in the SDK.
serene agate
It's not about what the individual PC specifications of each user. It's about world / avatar optimization.
Say everyone has the recommended minimum specs, there is still the issue of unoptimized avatars impacting performance.
I am very sure that users with the minimum requirements still suffer from performance issues as a result from these problems.
vocal shard
you see some people posting screenshot of their avatars to get some help and you can see that they have likle 40 different meshes
ruby burrow
There are a few things that could potentially change this dynamic in the future though. If the game updates it's unity version, it would gain far better multi-core processing. Various optimisations may also be possible to bring CPU load down. If the CPU bottleneck is reduced, then it could be possible for the GPU to start being the bottleneck for mid spec GPU users (such as myself).
thick flare
i think they separated the meshes in blender, then import it directly into unity
quartz basin
They will probably update the Unity Version in like 2 years.
thick flare
wth
vocal shard
usually people start to scream at them to merge them
umbral reef
Some of the avatar tutorials have peeps with 17 material avatars without any reason
quartz basin
Until then they got rid of all VRchat users by blocking everything.
vocal shard
that website with ready-to-use avatars, i download some of the most popular ones to check
most of them have between 30 to 50 materials
ruby needle
thick flare
anything >10 and can't be atlased perfectly is a no in my book
ruby burrow
I met someone who had built a weapon out of basic Unity 3D objects. Loads of detail on it, even including dozens of embedded spheres.
vocal shard
on the more bright side, if you check the google doc for the worlds requests, they are refusing avatar worlds with avatars that have more than 40 dynamic bones and are not atlased
rough pulsar
There's no such thing as "can't be atlased" :B
There's "too lazy to atlas" or "auto-atlasing won't work on this and I don't know how to do it by hand"
vocal shard
which is a good step in the right way
quartz basin
On the more bright side? They literally block content for free.
vocal shard
then use manual atlas
it's not hard
yes sails, they block content for free, fuck the devs for not allowing avatars with 200 dynamics bones and 50 materials for a public avatar
please, troll properly or stop saying stupid stuff, thanks
quartz basin
VRchat lives and dies by the community. Block to many things for "performance" reason and they will just stop uploading content.
thick flare
for my case the one which can't be auto atlased are often the models which already have low material count
not sure if it is related
ruby burrow
Denying uploading content that harms the game? Not everything in the world is about inconsiderate greed.
serene agate
VRChat, plz hear our voices
ruby burrow
Turning down easy money in order to preserve the game, isn't something I can fault them for.
viral yacht
Question. I’ve always used the choppy robot turning and the 3rd person teleport moving because I get sick when using the other stuff. Recently I’ve been trying out the first person moving and smooth turning to try and get used to it, but the turning seems so slow. Is there a way to go the speed of it?
ruby needle
what i also would love to see in the future is limiting the amount of avatars one can upload for free
for a few reasons
thick flare
ew
ruby burrow
Why exactly? Storage space is less of a premium than you probably think.
ruby needle
it's a ways to produce income but also means people are more likely to put work into the avatars
quartz basin
They don't turn down money by denying worlds. They pretty much deny content they won't do, the community is willing to do but instead of fixing their batshit unoptimized game they rather block the effort other people are willing to do.
vocal shard
not that i know, mysticcia
quartz basin
But sure, the devs are the good guys.
vocal shard
they actually are
they dont allow worlds with unoptimized avatars, i don't see your argument against that
viral yacht
Okay thanks, I’ll just stick to the robot turning but 1st person moving then
umbral reef
Sails- But how is denying content that harms all of the community bad?
quartz basin
VRchat is the platform, the community is the content. Deny people their content and see where this will lead up to.
umbral reef
Mainly if they cna just press a few buttons with cats plugin and fix there avaar
quartz basin
What do you mean with "harming"?
ruby burrow
@viral yacht Not that I know of. I just physically turn round, and re-align my preferred play space angle whenever is convenient afterwards.
umbral reef
Play in VR?
vocal shard
if your content is making everyone lag by simply existing, should it still be allowed ?
rough pulsar
@quartz basin VRChat is the platform, and the community provide the content, yes. That does not mean VRChat have to accept any old shite to their platform.
umbral reef
Because boi- i quit more worlds and conversations then i can even count with my limited playtime thanks to laggy avatars joining worlds
viral yacht
Yeah that may work, I always try to stay straight as possible but maybe I’ll just try turning my body instead
quartz basin
Instead of saying that one avatar is harmful, can you say exactly what your fps will be like with 20 people in a room with either all of them 10k poly or 30k poly?
umbral reef
Depends, do i look at them, how is the world made, is dynamic lightning happening
do they have any shaders and shit at all on them
serene agate
It would be better than x20 60k poly avatars, XD
umbral reef
How many meshes and dynamic bones
ruby burrow
@quartz basin A single amateur avatar can very easily hit performance worse than 20.
quartz basin
I really want to know how heavily it actually hits your performance.
ruby burrow
Policing that kind of thing is vital to the game continuing.
ruby needle
highly depends
rough pulsar
Last night at Improv we had some issue where we think it was a user avatar was causing a significant performance hit to the world.
quartz basin
I mean if the devs from VRchat would give me solid evidence, a nice and easy to understand graph how it actually hits the perormance, I'd be thankful.
ruby needle
if you're edging on vram then it will hurt a lot else not too noticably maybe with cloth components
serene agate
Of course am not saying that the poly count alone is what constitutes for a unoptimized avatar, but when you encounter a user who has a avatar that obviously bypasses the limitation set by VRChat, usually lots of shaders and others effects follow with it.
thick flare
you can block them
ruby burrow
Think of it this way. This is a game where the concept of crash guns exists. A crash gun is basically shooting you with an obscenely inefficient game object. Without sensible limits, any avatar can be at any point along the scale from optimal to literally crashing people upon loading.
serene agate
But just because I close my eyes, it doesn't mean it goes away.
ruby burrow
^ Under appreciated way of thinking.
quartz basin
Yes, possibilites exist, that's why you have so many different avatars running around.
serene agate
I just try to be honest.
quartz basin
People who abuse that system should be punished, no doubt. But punishing the whole community by limiting everything is not the right thing to do.
umbral reef
Sails- Why does one need more then 10 materials though?
thick flare
for maximum cuteness
quartz basin
Do you know? Do I know? Does anyone know?
umbral reef
I know
rough pulsar
I know too
quartz basin
Like, is there a VRchat tutorial that you shouldn't have more than 10 materials?
ruby needle
10 materials is a lot btw
rough pulsar
You can only have one shader per material.
quartz basin
Is there a VRchat guideline that you shouldn't have more than 40 dynamic bones?
serene agate
No one follows the rules. That is why we are here discussing this.
ruby needle
there is no reason to even need 10 material unless half of them are special shaders and its a extremly detailed model
umbral reef
@rough pulsar Ding ding ding we got a winner!
Now how often does an avatar have 10 diffrent shaders?
quartz basin
If you try to enforce a better quality, why not make a guideline?
umbral reef
Hint, never to almost never
rough pulsar
Let's take me for example, my skin, hair, eyes and body all have different requirements. So each of them has its own shader.
That's 4 shaders and 4 materials.
umbral reef
Thats 4 so far
Then we added also glasses so we got 5
Now we have just as many spaces for random af things
rough pulsar
Big difference with me Vs a lot of avatars is 99% of MMDs all use the same toon shader and rarely have any need whatsoever of having different shaders, and thus materials.
quartz basin
It's like saying "You do all the content but don't you dare have more than 10 materials even though we never told you! Don't you dare have more than 40 dynamic bones even though we never told you!"
rough pulsar
There's no hard rule on material count, it's a user optimisation thing.
umbral reef
Well WE are saying it because VRC isnt
quartz basin
I'm not trying to be a prick. I'm just saying most people don't know better.
opaque remnant
then they will learn
quartz basin
Yeah but not everyone is in this discord.
rough pulsar
And if people don't know better, help them learn.
And not by "OMG USE LESS MATERIALS YOU ***** ******"
quartz basin
It depends if people are really bothered by it. For me I am fine with playing 30 fps as long as I can see some really good avatars.
atomic shell
anyone wanna play yugioh vrchat
serene agate
Can anyone agree or disagree that certain plugins/tools that people use to bring MMD models into Blender promote laziness/highly unoptimized avatar creation?
quartz basin
I hope you're not implying CATS plugin is bad.
rough pulsar
For some reason separating MMDs up by material is a common part of the process. If there's no warning to rejoin them before you export then that's a problem.
thick flare
i want to relate with you, but since you are using a fairly outdated pc, i can't
serene agate
That is what I am referring to, but do not know how to use it myself, this is why I am looking for some of your opinions.
thick flare
like, i am not even sure if it is your pc issue or the avatar issue
serene agate
This isn't about me and my PC.
indigo fern
Well, Tuppers hella long tutorial is one of the most popular and he definitely goes over merging meshes and atlasing, though it needs to be updated since we have a different atlasing tool
serene agate
I know how far I can go with my setup, but there is a bigger picture here.
rough pulsar
@serene agate If you really care about quality avatar making, don't just learn what to do, but why you're doing each of the individual steps.
rigid crescent
i don't see how it promotes laziness
if i dont want to join my meshes i wont join them with or without cats lol
if anything not having it makes things harder
thick flare
the auto atlas actually promotes optimizing, if anything
quartz basin
If people how how hard it actually hits the performance they would think more about optimizing.
rough pulsar
Tools like the CATS plugin help speed up a lot of repetitive steps, but it hides the "why" of those steps, for better or worse.
serene agate
I am just asking questions, because lots of people are apparently really interested about this topic.
quartz basin
But they just go "How bad can it actually be?"
umbral reef
Because there is no clear answer
serene agate
And sure, I can do my part to have a well made optimized avatar if that was my goal, but I am just one user.
umbral reef
An shaders performance can change from small to insane just by adding some elements within the world
rigid crescent
you're right you're jsut one person with the option to do these things
now imagine if you didnt have theo ption to upload with 10 materials
thick flare
oh don't worry, i am sure the devs are working towards limiting the material count
umbral reef
Dynamic bones goes the same- Having like 12 active all the time is nice
But if one of those 12 is constantly being touched by lets say an head collider so that the hair does not go into the head-
It can cause a lot worse performance hit then some more dynamic bones
serene agate
I am not an avatar creator, so I don't understand what that means to me, but like I said, this isn't about me personally. XD
thick flare
i hope they keep it around 10 though
serene agate
But there is lots of information here you guys are dropping when you talk about the specifics of it.
umbral reef
Soul all i do is make semi optimized avatars (cant be assed to remake them after these dope cat updates that would take away all the work :eyes)
And joke animations
quartz basin
I wouldn't be mad of the devs by limiting things if they actually introduce tools to bring easy avatar optimisation to the masses.
serene agate
That's why I keep adding fuel to this fire.
umbral reef
But just from asking i learned that poly's dont instantly hurt performance as badly as most peeps expect
rough pulsar
@serene agate Yeah, it's quite an in-depth subject.
ruby needle
@quartz basin its called... CATS
quartz basin
But they just implement their limitation and say "You either comply or game over"
umbral reef
@quartz basin And what are they doing right now with the poly count then?
quartz basin
CATS is not a plugin from the VRchat developers.
ruby needle
that does not matter
umbral reef
Blender also isnt from the devs 👏 Even though we all use that tool
quartz basin
That does matter.
ruby needle
no
ruby burrow
@quartz basin Well we have been mentioning and agreeing that the SDK needs to include better and more logical warnings, to help educate. There should definitely also be some concise but decent guidelines presented somewhere.
umbral reef
Same for the unity stuff- They just work with there game in it, not on unity itself
ruby needle
vrchat gives you the foundation and sets requirements
rough pulsar
Outside of the Unity VRChat SDK vrchat don't care nor are they obliged to support what goes on there.
ruby needle
everything else is nothing hey have to do
indigo fern
The devs didn't actually make unity 
rigid crescent
yeah the lack of guidelines is very strange
just say "hey try not to have more than X materials, X meshes, etc
ruby burrow
The current SDK warnings falsely imply that even being within 20k "will not perform well", whilst completely neglecting to check or mention any other factor. Which definitely needs improvement.
rough pulsar
that 20k limit has literally been around for years
umbral reef
Also- The devs never provided really detailed tools (as in tutorials) on how to do most things... Its that Tupper before he was an dev made the mmd stuff that it became a lot easier for most
quartz basin
I just want to get this straight. All VRchat is doing is limiting more possibilities by their lack of optimizing the game, not supplying their content base with better options and you guys still support them?
ruby burrow
Actually, on that note, CATS has recently been doing a better job or warning and educating people.
ruby needle
Sails, no one forces you to do your own content
they give you the option and platform
but thats about it
serene agate
VRChat now actively promotes that bypassing the SDK may result in a ban via the loading screens. (I'm sure you already know this). There has been some improving in that regard with the warning.
ruby burrow
When you use it's upload button, it will warn you on things like high material count or other flaws, and try to persuaded you to fix it first.
rigid crescent
that was in the TOS as well
ruby burrow
It will only upload in one click if the model is to decent standards.
ruby needle
has always been against the TOS
quartz basin
Banning people is not an improvement. It just shows they are not willing to improve their game.
I really wonder how long they want to keep those limitations.
ruby needle
Sails you are either trolling or naive
this is agame that bases on a lot of user conent
it plays a big factor
so it is important to force this content to be optimized
quartz basin
Yes, it's the user who make the content. So how does it help limiting content?
ruby needle
ffs
ruby burrow
@quartz basin "limiting more possibilities by their lack of optimizing the game" But optimising the game is exactly what this is.
indigo fern
Because it can't just be a free for all
quartz basin
You don't force shit on Users who are imrpoving your game for free.
ruby needle
nah
ruby burrow
WE make the content, thus WE are the only ones that can optimise it.
ruby needle
mmd's can be made perfectly fine and opzimized avatars
quartz basin
But you can only optimize so much until the games limitations hits you in the face.
rough pulsar
@quartz basin I agree that the 20k limit is silly, but you're on the wrong track here. Avatar optimisation is entirely down to the user to do, and vrchat's best option right now is to limit what can be done to prevent a single user's ignorance from causing other people's experience to turn to shit, which harms vrchat's appearance.
ruby burrow
It's our responsibility to stay within sensible boundaries, and if we can't to learn how to.
quartz basin
@cold saddle Be careful what you wish for.
serene agate
plz don't burn down the house mommy and daddy gave to you
thick flare
VRCommunist
rough pulsar
@quartz basin And they absolutely get to force stuff on us, since we're putting our stuff on their platform.
It ain't a democracy or any shit, we don't have a right to use the service.
near saffron
Our polys
ruby burrow
In your average VR Chat instance, the only things created by the devs is the UI and the IK system. Everything else you see in front of you is a players job to optimise.
And that's exactly what this is.
quartz basin
"Don't bite the hand who feeds you"
I'm not sure how VRchat is gaining any funds besides from HTC but sooner or later they have to start making money.
near saffron
Ads on loading menu
thick flare
^
quartz basin
But by getting rid of their community for really vague guidelines
thick flare
no
rough pulsar
Why would that get rid of the communuty? @quartz basin
thick flare
i don't want a cola sign in my world
quartz basin
First by introducing ranks, which was a really huge mistake.
serene agate
Loading screen ads would be better than a in-world ad.
ruby burrow
The community is not going to leave over not being allowed to upload lag inducing game killers.
serene agate
Not that I want to see them.
quartz basin
Now new player can't even talk to older players since they are blocked from the very get go.
thick flare
play video ads before you enter a world
rigid crescent
The same people blocking people for being new are the same ones who weren't even in public worlds talking to new users and blocking all avatars to begin with
quartz basin
@cold saddle It's called Second Life
near saffron
That’s down to the player to decide. Probs not worth talking to them if they have u blocked just cuz ur new
rough pulsar
@quartz basin I don't disagree with the problems highlighted with the ranking system, but you were going on about how SDK limits would supposedly make the community leave, why would SDK limits make people leave vrchat?
thick flare
you know, it is actually possible
ruby burrow
If an avatar creator that can't build avatars properly, and is unwilling to learn how, decides to leave for these reasons, then the game has only benefited.
thick flare
since using mmd models outside of mmd=violation of tos
quartz basin
I'm just saying that content creators will be fed up with all the limitations set to them.
ruby needle
actually propper model creators who know their job dont
quartz basin
All they want to do is create interesting avatars without wasting 8 hours of optimizing something they shouldn't even be doing if the game wasn't relying on only one core.
rigid crescent
8 hours of optimization ?
near saffron
8 hours to optimize? Thinking face
rough pulsar
@quartz basin VRChat's steadily imposed more restrictions over the past two years and if anything it's gained more people making stuff for it rather than getting rid of them, so I don't know where you're getting this idea from.
rigid crescent
have you ever made an optimized avatar, sails
or an avatar at all? real question
not throwing shade
quartz basin
I actually did.
ruby needle
@cold saddle it isn't
rigid crescent
"all people do is stand in front of the mirror" uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
ruby burrow
Without these limitations I could deliberately go upload an avatar world full of severely unoptimized avatars, and flood public worlds with what are effectively subtle soft crash tools.
rough pulsar
@quartz basin That and these optimisations on avatars (one mesh, as few materials as possible, etc) are things Unity themselves tell developers to do.
Not VRChat, the underlying engine devs. Unity.
ruby needle
do you have VR or are on desktop 
ruby burrow
"wasting 8 hours of optimizing"
That's an incredibly greedy statement.
ruby needle
^
indigo fern
If you're standing in front of a mirror, the most unoptimized thing is the mirror itself 
serene agate
Standing in front of a mirror actually gives more incentive to have an optimized avatar, since the mirror itself doubles the rendering required to display your avatar. (If I understand this correctly)
rigid crescent
8 hours?
ruby needle
after all, what i said multiple times
you are creating custom 3d content.
it's not supposed to be drag and drop
it takes time
and thats not wrong
rigid crescent
So sails, did it take you 8 hours to atlas
quartz basin
I know I'm barking at the wrong tree here since everyone seems to be into optimizing. I'm just saying that the general populus of VRchat doesn't care about optimizing since no one ever told them to.
rough pulsar
Then start telling people to.
quartz basin
I'm not obliged to.
ruby needle
they need to be forced
near saffron
Should be a loading screen menu message
rigid crescent
They don't care because they don't know.
quartz basin
I'm a content creator, not a moderator.
rigid crescent
inform them, issue a limit, that's all they need to do.
ruby burrow
They care about it massively Sails. You can hear people complaining about it every day. "Why haven't the devs optimised this shitty game yet?"
They just don't understand how it works.
rough pulsar
I'm not either, I only moderate right here, the discord. I have 0 power in vrchat itself. I still tell people to optimize their shit (and point them to how to do so)
serene agate
If that is the case, and users are too dumb, lazy, or just don't care, then world creators need to have much stricter rule enforcement.
quartz basin
We wouldn't even have this conversation if the game actually was running on the latest Unity version.
serene agate
That is where most avatars come from. (obviously)
rough pulsar
@quartz basin Were you around for the last time vrchat updated unity versions?
quartz basin
They actually did?
rough pulsar
A little over a year ago. Unity 5.3 to 5.6 It was a nightmare.
quartz basin
What exactly happened? Why did it go wrong?
rough pulsar
Everything had to be reuploaded. Worlds, avatars, the lot.
rough pulsar
Oh it didn't go super wrong, but it was not a smooth transition.
We lost web panels for a good few months
rough pulsar
But we got performance boosts thanks to single-pass stereo.
indigo fern
Oof, if that happened now a days, for some avatar world makers that would mean hundreds of reups
ruby needle
it would also mean a lot of content lost
rough pulsar
Now the thing is, this update was a very long time coming, and this was even after the first public announcement of "We're working on updating to a new version of unity"
thick flare
which is what i said when people argued that vrchat needs to render 2 times in vr
serene agate
@cold saddle Do you have friends that you play with in VRChat? It's not just about seeing your waifu in 60fps. It affects everyone.
quartz basin
Rather lose content now instead of blocking new content.
ruby needle
there is some content of people who dont even live anymre...
rough pulsar
I don't know how long they'd been testing stuff before that.
ruby needle
@quartz basin even with a unity switch limits will have to be there and respected
rough pulsar
So if they are working on updating to a new version of unity, we won't know until they tell us.
ruby burrow
They're not blocking new content Sails. They're blocking poorly made or greedily inefficient content.
thick flare
define poorly made
ruby burrow
40 materials.
quartz basin
Yes, exactly. Switch to a new Unity Version with improved performance and then set guidelines.
rigid crescent
high material, high dynamic bone count
thick flare
genuinely curious
quartz basin
Everyone will be happy
rigid crescent
So just snap their fingers and switch and leave this game unchanged, good idea lol
thick flare
i have always been wondering how many materials is too much
ruby needle
depends on what you do
vocal shard
I've been waiting 8 days after receiving "We'll get back to you soon with an answer" from support, should I wait another week or send in another ticket? :p
thick flare
my personal limit is 10
ruby needle
with lots of different shaders ?
rough pulsar
The thing I'm getting at is: the vrchat team know the current unity version has a performance cap due to how CPU use is done, they know that both users and user-devs want a unity update, hell they want to too, but it's not a simple "Okay, so we open up unity 2018 and import vrchat, build and upload to steam"
ruby burrow
By poorly made I refer to poorly optimised. Not ugly.
thick flare
1 shader
ruby needle
if you use one shader and have 10 materials then that is bad
rigid crescent
why have 10 materials if you ahve only 1 shader
ruby needle
with only one shader you should have 2-3 at max
thick flare
haven't learn manual atlas
ruby burrow
There's no exact line that can ever be drawn for the number of materials/dy-bones/meshes, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
quartz basin
I never said it's gonna be a flick of a thinger and boom, new version. But for this you set up various time lines. What you have to do, what will be done in the near future.
thick flare
and auto atlas won't work on that particular model
near saffron
Yeah I avoid 10 also. If I got a few then I avoid any dynamic bones use
rigid crescent
40 seems to be the dynamic limit
ruby burrow
Or else crash avatars are technically legal.
quartz basin
Atleast give the community some sort of transparency what they can look forward to.
rigid crescent
no they're not squishy
ruby needle
i have 2 materials and that is only because of 2 shaders
rough pulsar
crash avatars are never allowed. Doesn't matter how they're done.
thick flare
i mean i will eventually learn it, but it remains at 6 materials until i learn how to do it
rigid crescent
let's say having a crash avatar with 1 mesh, 1 material, 1 shader, etc. all within these rules for avatar making that don't exist
still against TOS
ruby needle
if its only one shader/mesh its not good either
ruby burrow
Fair enough, poor comparison. But a line still has to be drawn somewhere on the most common performance issues.
rough pulsar
Basically: If you make an avatar with the intent to cause other user's client to crash that is against the rules and you should be banned for that, you prick.
ruby burrow
Or else the word "Optimisation" will be meaningless forever.
rough pulsar
If an avatar causes crashes by accident that's different.
ruby needle
thats not the point
vocal shard
I have question.
If i've been waiting 8 days after receiving "We'll get back to you soon with an answer" from support, should I wait another week or send in another ticket? :p
rigid crescent
it's not a rules thing, it's more of an 'ethics' thing. You should be doing the best you can
thick flare
i would say keep waiting
rigid crescent
you don't need a masterpiece of an avatar
quartz basin
@vocal shard Bombard them with tickets!
ruby needle
You dont need to repeat your self.
sometimes support can take up to multilpe weeks.
quartz basin
Maybe write a cute love letter to them.
thick flare
but if it happens on me i would probably send another ticket too
vocal shard
If it hits 2 weeks I'm sending another, 2 weeks is too long for an answer to a question :p
ruby needle
is it too long tho
ruby burrow
My avatars are mainly all within 10 mats and 50 bones (most far lower. I think only one with a long skirt reaches that). I've got one uploaded at 22 mats, but I only ever pull that one out in low pop friends instances, since it's still in construction. I've got another with 27 mats, but only 3 of them can ever be enabled at any one time.
ruby needle
you're not paying a penny for this game so can you really set that expectation? 
rigid crescent
have you tried asking someone else
ruby needle
22 Mats?
rigid crescent
unless it's ban related
vocal shard
it's world related
quartz basin
VRchat still exists because it has Users. Without Users, no funding.
ruby burrow
Yeah Paul, it didn't auto atlas properly, and I just wanted to see if the model would work at all, so I got lazy and uploaded a test version. I intend to go back and fix it eventually.
ruby needle
👌
ruby burrow
And users need to be able to run the game to play the game Sails.
umbral reef
@quartz basin most of the funding came when the game had almost no users....
ruby burrow
Wearing an unoptimized avatar is not remotely essential to enjoying the game, or creating content.
quartz basin
People want to impress their audience with their cute avatar design and unique custom animations. I cannot remember the last time I praised someone for their weill optimized avatar.
In fact, that never happens.
rigid crescent
They can still do that if it's optimized
quartz basin
But nobody cares and that's the point.
rigid crescent
ok? we already all agree people should acre
'care
they can only be made to care by having a limit enforced
ruby burrow
@umbral reef Well Sails is still right that the game will ultimately depend on a healthy user base in order to thrive, but this idea that giving users free lease to upload any lazy mess is harmful to that, is just wrong.
rough pulsar
The point is you're not making other people's framerate drop to shit.
quartz basin
They should, they just don't. Why do they not care? Because they don't know any better. How do we educate them? Tell them.
umbral reef
At times I wonder what part of the community is the most dumb within this game
And Everytime when I think I have an answer someone else surpasses it
@quartz basin limits?
Force them to learb
ruby burrow
I said above about how they care greatly. They just don't know where to address their complaints.
quartz basin
You don't denounce someone only because he holds a different opinion. Sounds very bigoted.
ruby burrow
Performance is the most complained about aspect of the game, second possibly only to crashers. (Or maybe just first)
quartz basin
People care about performance of the game, not the avatar.
serene agate
When you hear 5 or more people around the same time say something like:
"oh i'm lagging a lot right now" "are you lagging?" "oh damn i'm lagging wtfff"
ruby burrow
Yes, tell them. That's what we've been saying the entire time.
serene agate
when someone enters the room
rigid crescent
holy shit...
quartz basin
Yes, when people say they lag, they blame the game, not the player.
rigid crescent
the only solution right now is limiting the avatars
quartz basin
As it should be.
umbral reef
I'm fairly sure avatar creators won't even be insanely pissed if proper limits got put in place
Unlike there previous attempts to reduce lagg
ruby burrow
But denying the problem and acting entitled is the opposite of helpful.
umbral reef
@quartz basin yes and it's the games fault for not forcing optimazation
rough pulsar
@quartz basin What, if it's a player's shit avatar making it lag then the player is at fault
quartz basin
They block players because the game cannot handle the work load.
ruby burrow
FFS. The players are the ones that make the lag!
quartz basin
How do you know it's the playe's fault and not just 20 people being in the same room?
I want facts!
queen mango
What's going on?
umbral reef
Things like the IK system
The nameplates
The VoIP those are vrcs fault
Shit avatars arent
ruby burrow
It's not that the game can't handle the workload, it's that amateur content creators overload it.
rough pulsar
What facts do you even want? Ones that you'd like to hear or the truth?
quartz basin
Because no one presents me any evidence. All I hear is "It's bad! You cannot do that!"
umbral reef
@quartz basin educate yourself
No one here is going to write what has been explained and write an 100 times by now
queen mango
Hold up... What's going on in here?
quartz basin
How much is a high poly count hitting performance. What about the materials, dynamic bones.
I just hear it is bad but how bad?
ruby burrow
We've explained that repeatedly.
vocal shard
Mmm ig I'll wait for the response, just annoying to hold off an update to Box (Lag-Free) :p right when I start self moderating the world too.
quartz basin
No, you only said it is bad, that's it.
rough pulsar
@quartz basin Okay, give me a bit to type it up but I'll explain why these things happen.
ruby burrow
I explained the nature of the CPU vs GPU bottleneck above.
umbral reef
As we said over 10 times by now
There is not just one factor that impacts things
It's the adding on of non good things that causes problems
ruby needle
materials hurt your performance because they cause more drawcalls which takes away cpu cycles, dynamic bones are also calculated on cpu
quartz basin
I don't want to know why it's happening, I want to know how much of an impact it has on perfroamnce.
Most people don't care why, they care how.
umbral reef
@vocal shard ow they don't want peeps to claim there world is lagging free when it isnt
As most world's are lagg free...
@quartz basin an material causes 7 oclacs of performance hits :^)
ruby needle
yep, no clickbaiting anymore
umbral reef
There you got an numer
ruby burrow
The only way to understand how much of an impact it has, is to understand why it does. There is no possible numerical metric we can give you here.
quartz basin
Why can you not do that? Set one person into a room with different numbers of materials and measure how much it impacts the user.
vocal shard
mmm, I'm a little warry on the lack of a definition of "low effort" because a box can be seen as low effort but optimizing as many variables as possible isn't low effort
quartz basin
Or is that too outlandish?
vocal shard
especially seeing as its usually top 5 on active :p
rigid crescent
Odds are that's been done, but you don't necessarily need to do that. it's a computer program, there's things we know due to the nature of how it works
ruby needle
its fine if you want to call it box but any tiny sign of "could have been better" is going to nope it when titled lag free. mirror, colliders, the like
so many people pushed low efford boxes and make people belive that those are good and the best you can do
while empty rooms are nearly the worst you can do
rigid crescent
I know what will happen every time i press the 1 button on my calcualtor what will happen
thick flare
inb4
rigid crescent
the game has more variables, but it's the same thing
there's things we just know due to how it works
umbral reef
@quartz basin because then things like nameplates, the ik system and ECT won't be counted
thick flare
Teito's avatar room (unoptimized)
indigo fern
serene agate
I don't understand how you can argue that high poly, materials, bones, etc, do not affect performance.
quartz basin
So you cannot run a simple benchmark with 2 people in a room with optimized avatars compared to 2 people in a room with unoptimized avatars and give me an fps value?
rigid crescent
It's not needed, but go ahaed
quartz basin
That's my point.
ruby burrow
I have done that actually. It's pretty easy to notice.
rough pulsar
@quartz basin Every frame, the CPU has to figure out what state the scene is in. This includes things like what meshes are where, what bone transforms are doing what to the mesh and so on. Physics calculations also. And any other stuff, like IK, audio, networking and more.
Then it's got to send the required information to the GPU to make an actual image.
As it steps through the scene, changing from one material to another requires a state change, which takes up a little bit of time. When there's a fuckton of materials in a scene, these changes add up.
When all this is done, all the information has been sent to the GPU which then does the magical graphics stuff, which also takes time.
GPUs and CPUs work quite differently, since a CPU is a general processor while a GPU is much more specialised. Tasks like doing stuff to vertexes and colour operations on a lot of pixels can be done way faster on GPUs because they're designed to do that stuff.
Once the final image is ready, stuff happens and it winds up on a display (monitor, or VR HMD screens)
For VR at 90fps, there's 20ms to do all of this.
The reason we say limit your materials and join your meshes is so that your PC parts either has less to do, or can do things faster because complex math magic that even I don't fully understand.
serene agate
This matters on a scale where there is more than 2 people in a world. Of course if theres so few people, your performance will be alright if everything is going smoothly.
low sorrel
Or your pc is just bad
rough pulsar
Also note a lot of this is a massive generalisation of some very complex things.
umbral reef
Too be fair
Why do we even care
rigid crescent
You're asking to test something people know how and why it works
umbral reef
All this dude wants is to be cute and be ignorant
rigid crescent
you just don't trust it despite having it explained
If someone wants to make a quick optimized and unoptimized avatar I'll hop in a box with them just to shut him up
but you're ignoring proof due to not liking it
quartz basin
Yeah, sure. I just want to improve the overall feel of the game but I'm ignorant.
ruby needle
no you dont
quartz basin
Or am I the bad guy for criticizing the VRchat devs?
indigo fern
We do that all the time too
quartz basin
Haven't seen evidence so far.
You mean the evidence that everyone is saying the same thing even though they never really tested it out?
rough pulsar
What the hell did I just type then? A paragraph long fever dream about otters?
quartz basin
"complex math magic that even I don't fully understand.
rigid crescent
LOL
ruby burrow
It's easy to test, and completely pointless. It's like testing if dropping a rock makes it fall.
indigo fern
We don't need to observe the world to know it doesn't disappear when we blink
rough pulsar
When I say that I was referring to hardware-level crazy shit that GPUs do.
serene agate
You just go for the tl;dr?
quartz basin
If that's the tl;dr than you haven't even read it.
serene agate
It was a perfect explanation of how this shit works.
rough pulsar
Honestly, if you're going to dismiss what I said because I'm not a 100% perfect all knowing wizard then feel free.
ruby burrow
You can test it by looking at and then away from an avatar. I've met avatars that bring my FPS from 90 to 16 in a single head turn.
umbral reef
Let's ask it like this
What proof do you have that materials dynamic bones and ECT don't cause insane amounts of performamce hits
quartz basin
I just want to go back to my opening statement. "Do not limit the user base who is creating content for your game only because you don't to optimize your game".
umbral reef
Performance*
rigid crescent
i have an avatar that's 30-something materials that i know lags, it was before I knew that it mattered
vocal shard
users ahve to optimize their avatars too
not just the devs
is that hard to understand?
umbral reef
We can just force the default acatar
quartz basin
"Have to" without even being told to.
umbral reef
Then it's optimized
ruby needle
@rigid crescent we could try my avatar but it wasn't to bad originally
rough pulsar
@quartz basin Why should users be allowed to create absolutely anything without any restrictions whatsoever?
ruby burrow
ONCE AGAIN. Sensible limits upon uploads is HOW you optimise the game.
vocal shard
refusing an avatar world because all avatars are unoptimized is not limiting the users
ruby needle
the original was like 15/17 mats and a few meshes the new ones is 2meshes and mats (different shaders)
quartz basin
Why shouldn't they? If you want to set up strict avatar rules, tell them. See how they will like it.
Go on and end up like Second Life.
ruby burrow
The devs cannot optimise object that YOU add to the game. That is your responsibility.
umbral reef
This is like top tier meme material by now
ruby needle
^
umbral reef
It's so stupid it's funny
ruby needle
yes
rigid crescent
lol
umbral reef
Like shit
Kuro can't even get this close
ruby needle
"Why should i optimize my shit when the game is not perfect anyway"
umbral reef
Or shana
quartz basin
Yes, I know. It's stupid that I don't share the same opinion youguys do. Hilarious.
serene agate
But having some guidelines, or more truthfully put-- restrictions on avatar / world creation will help promote a more healthy and smooth experience for all users. Why is that a bad idea?
ruby needle
"Why should i be forced to take care about optimization"
umbral reef
@quartz basin have you ever programed? Or worked on AE projects?
ruby needle
it's okay to have you own opinion Sails
quartz basin
Does it matter if I have or have not? Devs receive money for their work. They don't do a good job, they shouldn't receive money.
ruby needle
but some opinions are simply far away from reality
umbral reef
It does yes
It honestly does
I would trust the feedback of an programer for job more then an farmer on why servers need X thing
quartz basin
So what would it help me to understand if I ever programmed? That all of this is just impossible and will never be fixed?
ruby burrow
Same logic to you then Sails. You aren't willing to do a good job on your avatars, you shouldn't have them.
vocal shard
why are you still arguing with a guy that is in his own reality ? it's pointless, he doesnt care about your opinions or explanations
queen mango
Let him learn the hard way.
ruby needle
fun
serene agate
This doesn't limit content, it just forces users to be more dedication to the platform. If that limits your creativity, then maybe somewhere during that process, you are doing something that you shouldn't (according to the ToS)
umbral reef
Same that I trust an important core of the avatar and animation community more then the rest when it comes to these topics
queen mango
He‘ll know soon enough
quartz basin
So they should just outright block every content I upload because I do not share their strict limitations due to poorly game performance?
I mean, do that and see what will happen.
umbral reef
@quartz basin you understand what we said at least and why the devs doing things just on there side won't change jack shit in performance
And why user limiting is the only way to get world's not laggy
vocal shard
Is this still going on
rigid crescent
strict limitations?
ruby burrow
Until you learn some respect for the community, yes. Yes they should.
vocal shard
Is this still going on?
quartz basin
Why is this now about respect?
ruby needle
yup @vocal shard
vocal shard
Sad
ruby needle
yup
rough pulsar
Haha, yes. :/
serene agate
Dude, how do you think video games got made back in the 90s, etc. This may not be a good analogy, but if they made good games on limited hardware and were forced to be very optimized to deliver their content, then you can do it too.
umbral reef
That you are so selfish or how you want to call it
That you even refuse to press an button on a program is insanr
vocal shard
Could have done something productive with your time, in the time you've wasted arguing about this, rip
Welp
Imma get some sleep
rigid crescent
"I shouldn't have to take the extra few minutes to optimize my avatar just because the game can't handle it!" Other games that have user-uploaded content still have limits...
ruby needle
@umbral reef buts its not a official dev tool !
quartz basin
Don't worry, my dude. I'm actually getting paid for this.
vital rune
I....I don't know what the hell's going on here
ruby burrow
Because you find putting a little time into optimising your content so offensive, that you'd rather degrade the experience for all other players. You feel you have the right to do whatever you please.
vocal shard
People arguing on the internet, when in reality it changes nothing, basically a waste of time
Okay actually going to sleep now, yikes
Night people
vital rune
I'm just enjoying a bit of Halo 4 music
umbral reef
@vital rune tldr fella thinks adding any type of limit for materials or alike is bad
vital rune
and I see this
rough pulsar
@vital rune Halo (as a series in general) has amazing music.
queen mango
Oof
rigid crescent
It's not limiting anyone, most avatars can still look just fine when optimized, even the same
umbral reef
Most avatars will look the exact samr
queen mango
Hey, what about NieR: Automata music, Gallium?
umbral reef
If not all
quartz basin
I said it before. I'm barking against the wrong tree since everyone holds the same opinion and I'm that one special snowflake who's not happy about limiting the user base who is creating the only content this game have.
rough pulsar
I absolutely love the way (especially in the first game) they're so sparing with the music. Gives it much more of an impact when it does play.
rigid crescent
Dude, games have limits
umbral reef
Dude we are the group that makes content...
rigid crescent
Limits exist for various reasons, that's games and life in general
serene agate
@vocal shard if you read what this discussion is about, you might see this is not a "waste of time". It's important stuff, and we care a lot, and you should too, probably. (if you enjoy VRChat as much as we do)
quartz basin
Once again and this will be my closing statement as it was my opening statement "Fix the game, not the player".
rough pulsar
@queen mango Haven't played it (yet, I do plan to) but what I have heard is gorgeous. I love hanging out in the Nier Automata flowers world in vrcht because of the music.
rigid crescent
ok, later
umbral reef
Then you should not play as that fixes some performance things then
vital rune
despite what most people think about Halo 4 music
ruby burrow
You are not the only person creating content, and there are plenty willing to put the effort in to optimise their work.
vital rune
I still think its one of the best
umbral reef
It's as dry cut as that
vital rune
@rough pulsar
rigid crescent
I think you being gone will fix the game
queen mango
Yep, visited it in the game. Pretty much skipped a heartbeat once I realized what it was.
(Plus, the song is called Kainé(Salvation))
rough pulsar
@vital rune My absolute favourite is ODST. Holy shit the music in that one was flawless.
umbral reef
@ruby burrow most high end avatar creators do and know why it's important
rigid crescent
Man, you know what I miss? The earlier days during/after the boom when no one made avatars and people were dropping massive bank left and right for shit as simple as re-texturing MMD uploads
just the most simple stuff
i wish I knew what I was doing back then, it was a gold mine
queen mango
Must've been more honest too.
rough pulsar
I kinda miss when you could have everyone online in one world and still get 60fps. :B
thick flare
i wouldn't want to create avatar prior to cats era
serene agate
I do not remember any of the music being memorable in other Halo soundtracks, but Halo 1 - A Walk in the Woods is my favorite.
queen mango
That's during the forest part
rigid crescent
sucks that all my inspiration for doing avatar stuff comes at 4AM and not a more reasonable hour
serene agate
I can relate to that feeling.
vital rune
hot take, while I think Halo 1-3's musics were great, most of them sound the goddamn same
umbral reef
Mine happens most often when I'm drinking
What means I can't make anything right 
rough pulsar
Since we're kinda on the subject, any worlds you've run into that have a really good music/visual coupling?
umbral reef
Also the reason I gave up on making stuff
vital rune
I lost motivation to make more quantity over quality avatars lol
queen mango
@rough pulsar There's nickout13's avatar world. One of the soundtracks you can pick there is "This is What You Are" from Warframe
rough pulsar
@queen mango Is that the world name? Trying to find it but search ain't giving me shit :<
queen mango
Yep.
serene agate
@rough pulsar While it is not anything great or immersive, I remember Heart Avatar world having a cool song.
But as far as a cool aesthetic/ambient/good atmosphere music in a world, I cannot recall at the moment.
rough pulsar
nickout13 avatar ark?
queen mango
That's the one
vital rune
oh ye
I've been through that one
god bless the Doom Slayer avatar with the BFG Division guitar
rough pulsar
I think I might have been there once, not sure.
vital rune
I have it on my favorites
rough pulsar
There's also that nice world that's like a throne room with blue particles in the air and moonlight coming through the windows, can't remember the name though :C
tiny ginkgo
This might be reaching too far, but speaking of music in worlds.. I visited a date world yesterday (restaurant/cafe with a jukebox). Does anyone remember the playlist for that world?
vital rune
the most thing I remember about nikout's world
is that fucking John Freeman statue
John Freeman, savior of humens
queen mango
Gordon Frohman?
rough pulsar
@tiny ginkgo I think I know which one you mean and I can't remember the name of it D:
tiny ginkgo
Np - The music just stuck with me and I want to listen to it at work, but I am completely blank. I think the world was called something like VRDate or something. As I said, I know it's grasping at straws haha
rough pulsar
I'm not at my VR pc at the moment, but when I can I'll fire up vrc since I think it's in my recent worlds list still.
tiny ginkgo
Cool, that's super nice of you. Thanks
queen mango
There's also a NieR: Automata avatar world.
I dunno who made the world, but the OST that is playing there is "Wretched Weaponry" (Medium).
umbral reef
Well chat died fast...
twin jacinth
Mitch Murder
Bleh
Well he rips off other content creators ideas and claim them as his own
I don't really like that guy, but just my person opinion on him 🤷
queen mango
What about the ones from Toga and Ikita's avatar world?
twin jacinth
Toga has some really interesting avatars, he also recently updated the world
queen mango
Hasn't that been like a few months now?
queen mango
Last time, it was some bright buildings. Can't see your hud there
That was 2 months back
Still, I love the new BGM and background.
twin jacinth
Yeah, Toga and Ikita has really upped their game when it comes to quality of avatars
the avatar in my profile pic is from Togas world
vital rune
I have his Fukaziroh avatar as one of my favorites
its so good I abandoned the LLENN avatar in the process
simply because it has a proper face
twin jacinth
The guns on the avatars i find very bad (Snow themed ones) and annoying
got the avatar re-made, Toga is a nice guy^^
FTB
Removed guns, added finger gestures w/ expressions
Update hair/skirt so it moves/moves more natural
Name tag on left arm
quartz basin
Can't have a successful chat when I'm not starting a controversial topic.
And by controversial I mean I'm not in the wrong.
Change my mind
queen mango
@twin jacinth Toga standards
twin jacinth
Aye
queen mango
And they‘re pretty optimized too
Even the Crusader Loli's special effects don't hog up the memory too much. (The one in my pfp)
twin jacinth
Yeah the avatars is really well made but it seems like he puts a lot of work into it^^
He also have a discord with 850 members which is a lot
serene agate
I don't know if ram consumption is really that important. Or is it?
When it comes to an individual avatar.
hogging up memory"
tiny ginkgo
It usually is. Unoptimized textures can kill mid end specs very quickly
I am not sure how it works in VRC, but in general.
vocal shard
pretty sure vrchat also have some memory leak problems
rough pulsar
I'd guess that your VRAM will fill faster than general RAM
Oh absolutely, I've encountered several memory leaks in vrc.
serene agate
Also, a SSD is really important as well, no?
rough pulsar
Not as much as a good CPU/GPU but definitely helps with load times from cached data
serene agate
I do not have data to back this up, but I swear my performance got smoother once I installed my SSD.
vocal shard
dunno if it's memory leak that0s the cause of it, but if i stay for 1 to 2 hours in the same instance, my fps will drop to 20 suddenly, and if i make a new instance with the exact same world then it will go back to 90/45
twin jacinth
SSD is for faster loading times but i don't find that a problem with it on a HDD
serene agate
*in VRChat
rough pulsar
SSDs have significantly faster access times than mechanical drives.
tiny ginkgo
Oh absolutely. SSDs might not affect your performance in terms of FPS and such, but the overall impression is better with an SSD due to access times
serene agate
4 second computer boot time is kinda scary.
vocal shard
SSDs 
rough pulsar
For bonus points get a pair of NVME drives and set them up in RAID0
serene agate
But this is old news
vocal shard
gallium, explain
rough pulsar
RAID0 is basically the dual-core CPU of disks.
and NVME drives are fast as fuck to begin with
tiny ginkgo
It's basically get 2 identical drives and hook them up together. It's a very old technique actually.
tiny ginkgo
Yes. Not like 200% or anything, but a good chunk
tiny ginkgo
You can compare it to a SLI setup more or less
vocal shard
so what, do your PC boot to windows in like 3 seconds?
i'm gonna ping you, gallium, when i make a new PC
rough pulsar
My laptop has a pair of nvme drives in raid0 and I have an issue with windows with it can't bring networking up fast enough so it always thinks network drives are disconnected on startup.
twin jacinth
Is it difficult to set up?
vocal shard
wtf
rough pulsar
It takes longer to POST than to boot windows
tiny ginkgo
RAID is cool but for me it's also a bit of a hassle. If you for example get a Samsung 500gig 860EVO you'll be super set to go
tiny ginkgo
But yeah it's a min/max thing
twin jacinth
Hej
vocal shard
i'm going to go full SSD when i get a new PC
twin jacinth
Jesus
vocal shard
like 4 TB at least
twin jacinth
Rich
tiny ginkgo
Yes that is a requirement now a days imo. Once you make the upgrade to put your OS on a SSD the thought of going back will scare you
vocal shard
i have 500GB SSD for windows and some softwares/games that i wanna run fast
twin jacinth
Indeed Nassachi
I'm considering getting a 500GB or 1TB SSD to have more games on it because the increased speed is amazing
but expensive :/
vocal shard
it's pretty "cheap" when you compare it to a few years back
i can find a 128 GB ssd for like 50-70 bucks
it's was more than 300 some years ago
twin jacinth
210 euro for a 1TB SSD
105 for 500GB
The price is not bad compared to a few years back but still a bit expensive for me :P
vocal shard
well, i dont buy my stuff in switzerland, i get it from other countries so it's cheap AF for me
twin jacinth
import tax here
reeee won't get any cheaper
vocal shard
oh switzerland have those too, it's so expensive also
i wanted to buy some cheap USBs
they cost like 40 bucks
the fucking importation tax was like 100 bucks
olive iron
will 100 doe suffice
twin jacinth
Lol 100 that's insane
vocal shard
yeah it's really expensive
2 years ago, i didnt find anything that could ship an oculus rift to me
so i had to buy one directly from one of the electronic stores in the country
that shit cost 1200 bucks
and 800 in the rest of the world
feels great
twin jacinth
Lmao wtf
how much do you guys earn?
or is it just really expensive
vocal shard
we earn a lot but it's really expensive
we are rich in other countries
but in our own country we are pretty limited
i'm searching for an entry-job for IT stuff
helpdesk, server management
stuff like that
depending on where i find a job, i could gain 4500 bucks (minimum) up to 6000 bucks per month
and that's for entry level
twin jacinth
Norway is know to be pretty expensive but switzerland oh my
I'm working as an ICT apprentice with atm 1.7k euro a month with 2.200 being the peak when i'm in the last phase o.O
4500-6000 is pretty insane.
vocal shard
again, we are rich in other countries but not in our own
still lark
Relative money
vocal shard
i'll have less than 1000 bucks left for me after all the taxes, bills and stuff like that
then i need to pay for internet
food
insurances
and all that
twin jacinth
Do not go to switzerland ✓
umbral reef
More money often means a higher cost of living so
vocal shard
yep
it's expensive as fuck
i still live with my mother
and because on how it work, we still pay our apartment according to the old contract
umbral reef
Abel is your house market also crippled or?
vocal shard
which is 1200 bucks for 3.5 pieces
umbral reef
Svel*
vocal shard
if we find the same appartment with the same exact room space
it will cost 2600 now
yeah it is
twin jacinth
Same here, if i were to live alone i'd have to eat noodles everyday to be able to live through a month
vocal shard
if you want to buyx asmall house with 4 rooms
it cost between 750k bucks and 1.2 millions
twin jacinth
Fucking hell i thought norway was bad
i changed my mind
queen mango
Housing prices have really gone up the roof lately
vocal shard
switzerland is garbage for prices dude
people are joking that we are rich, that's true everywhere but in our own country we are dogshit
i managed to live in serbia for 3 months with only 1 month salary from switzerland
and i still had money in the end
umbral reef
If I want to buy an house I have to pay 5x (with inflation and ECT counted with) compared to 10 years ago
twin jacinth
Work in Switzerland and live in 1 of the neighboor countries 🤷 ?
Swedish people do that a lot here
umbral reef
all dutchies are hella fucked when it comes to housing
vocal shard
since they are strangers, they get hired but get paid less than a swiss worker
so everyone is hiring them
and swiss people doesnt get hired
cuz they cost too much to pay
they introduced a law i believe that kinda force them to hire a certain number of swiss people
twin jacinth
Sounds fucked up
vocal shard
it is
people don't really like them
but they are cheap workers
even if they are paid less compared to a swiss person, they gain 3x the amount in money compared to working in france
so they pay the cheap france taxes with a swiss salary
ez money
queen mango
I thought working in the Philippines is worse.
twin jacinth
Lol lifehacks
that has to be insane
vocal shard
they call "borderer" i believe ?
if that's even a word
they live close to the borders
they drive 20 minutes to get to their job
queen mango
Border patrol?
olive iron
I think the term you're looking for is "mexican"
twin jacinth
20 mins is a pretty short road to work tbh
queen mango
Better than traffic
vocal shard
nobody hires in switzerland
you have insane work ethics
the boss of a company can get 200 to 300 CVs and letter asking for ajob per day
and it's common practice to just take half of that big pile of letters and throw it in the trash
and then start looking for someone competent in the other half
jufo, it is short
switzerland is small
queen mango
How about the traffic?
vocal shard
it take less than 4 hours to go from one end to the other
traffic is okay
problem is that we dont have enough parking spots
so you can see people parking like 15 minutes from their home
umbral reef
Everything in Europa is small compared to most other countries like murika or brazil
queen mango
Lucky. In the Philippines, traffic gets to the point where you wouldn't be able to drive at all
vocal shard
i live in a pretty small city, so if i want to buy stuff other than food and cloth i need to go to the next "big" city
which is 20 minutes away by car
queen mango
That's not all, however. Even smaller roads get longer traffic lines than the big ones.
vocal shard
it cost 35 bucks to get there by train
you need to buy a 35bucks ticket for a 20 minutes ride in the train
umbral reef
What the fuck
Here I can travel from down south to the north for like 45 Euro when I'm not a student
When I'm a student it's like 35 euro
And that's an few hours of travel
umbral reef
And if your a student it's free in the weekends OR during work days
vocal shard
you can buy a subscription for one year
so you can take all the buses and train in the whole country
it only cost 3700 bucks
umbral reef
Lmao
vital rune
@queen mango ayyyyy
vocal shard
do you eat to macdonald sometimes ?
vital rune
pilipino here
queen mango
Hello
queen mango
I know
vital rune
also our network services are dogshit
umbral reef
Not really as it's fairly expensive for the shit ya get
vocal shard
So like what*?* Do you show a personal subscription ticket that allows you to travel around until it expires*?*@vocal shard
you get a card
with your picture
name
vital rune
well yeah but
vocal shard
and when you got it and when it expires
vital rune
it loves killing itself
umbral reef
Doesn't it have an chip in it to tell you it's legit?
queen mango
@vital rune The drivers aren't known for their traffic etiquettes. But they do love chats
vocal shard
yes
vital rune
we're paying a buttload of money for what is essentially a subpar or worst network providers
vocal shard
Oh, so like a driver's license*?*
vital rune
lmao don't make me recall one time
vocal shard
i wanted to compare the price of a single big mac
twin jacinth
Norway you get a card that's a bit like a visa but no information besides it being a card that is used for buss
you can get a month on it or fill it up with money to take the buss
vital rune
where I'm going home after finishing my mall day
and I saw like 2-3 cars
parking off-centre or going out the line
needless to say, what the fuck is wrong with our drivers
queen mango
They never took driving school
vital rune
not to mention the buttload amount of car accidents
infact I don't even know if I would call them "accidents" anymore
vocal shard
Over here it's 2.50€ or more for the double pattie burgers, and 1.00€-2.00€ for the normals
tacit plank
2$ for a cheeseburger here, small and flat 304 calories one
vital rune
more like we have gone suicidal and decided to ram each other
queen mango
When there is less traffic, they go fast in their cars. When there is heavy traffic, the thing that goes fast is their rage
vocal shard
a big mac menu in Switzerland is around 15 bucks
queen mango
Still, I'd love a cheeseburger in McDo.
olive mulch
yeet
vocal shard
you get fries, the burger and 0.5L of a drink
queen mango
Usually costs around 79 pesos
tacit plank
Get 7 chesseburgers instead
vocal shard
Even 0.50€-0.70€ for small burgers
tacit plank
They're 2$ here helton lol
vital rune
while I do appreciate some stuff in our country like calamansi juice and all that shit
tacit plank
But I did the math, they're cheapest by calories
vital rune
I'm still questioning my patriotism with my country because of shit like "car accidents" and murders on the streets happen all the goddamn time
queen mango
Still, we're talking about food prices.
olive mulch
what country?
twin jacinth
Chocolate in norway costs an average of 5.29€
;-;
😢
Cheeseburgers are 2€ while a meny can be up to 13€
vital rune
Philippines
queen mango
Philippines, Xins
vital rune
also known as PUBG land
olive mulch
oh lol
vocal shard
Eh, it's probably because your country is developed, and mines still developing...
olive mulch
the worse of the worse
tacit plank
Here you can get a kilo of chocolate for 7-8€
vital rune
developed my goddamn arse
olive mulch
should’ve stayed with murica tbh
vital rune
except I was born here
queen mango
This is our curse
olive mulch
welp good luck
tacit plank
Because if I get all I can eat of anything else it will be like 10€
vocal shard
0.70€ to 2.50€ and above for Rice Chocolates over here, and for similar or the slightly bigger sizes
queen mango
Here in the Philippines, a gallon of ice cream costs around P249
tacit plank
If you want expensive chocolate, buy kindereggs (despite the German name I think they're illegal in Germany). It was like 200$ per kilo chocolate last I did the math
twin jacinth
Here's it's 200G For 5€ lol
send help please
vocal shard
rice chocolate is so fucking good
olive mulch
in dollars elire?
vital rune
I don't know if our pesos is weak af
queen mango
@olive mulch Philippine peso
queen mango
@olive mulch 52 pesos per dollar
olive mulch
5 dollars for an ice cream?!
queen mango
@olive mulch Yep
tacit plank
The cheapest block of vanilla ice cream here is like 5$, it will taste a bit of the package that it's in, though
Mcdonalds ice cream here is probably also 5$
queen mango
Wut?
vocal shard
isn’t an ice cream here in the us like at least $3.00? About
Like for a cone at the store
vital rune
if its premium or sugar-free
vocal shard
Meanwhile I have to deal with money that is Lek's and Liras which are ¾ and ¼ (used to be ⅓ and before that ⅔) of a €
where do you live, caffeine ?
tacit plank
Denmark
vocal shard
nice
queen mango
Noice
tacit plank
We use kroner, I just convert it in my head
olive mulch
lmao
tacit plank
Some things about Denmark are fine, other things not
olive mulch
euro master race
vocal shard
kroner? that’s you currency name?
tacit plank
If you like safe, flat places, it's great. And yeah, basically means crowns
queen mango
Could you tell us about the not-so-nice things?
vocal shard
@vital rune I could get a 400-600 gram packet of ice cream or cold delight with 5 dollars
ohh
olive mulch
yo i’ll fite you broo
vocal shard
also we should really move to #general-media
twin jacinth
Like how you guys talk, caffeine
Kamelåså
tacit plank
rød grød med fløde på
queen mango
Sure thinf
tacit plank
Lets jump #general-media
vocal shard
Y’all talking about icecream and it’s snowing in October for me lol
Also, full on ice cream is uncommon in big packets, only in small 0.20€ to 0.80€ sizes
#general-media before we get yeeted
north axle
Lifehack: if you don't want your anime avatar to be stolen, use realistic models.
Someone once said, "Nobody ever uses realistic female avatars because all women are ugly IRL."
vocal shard
brisk radish
Anyone know any cute halloween avatar worlds?
north axle
Someone better make this avatar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5OgdnvBFmk
vocal shard
Making avatars is pretty confusing
Making the model is easy but making the model work is something totally new
To me
chrome scarab
hey sry ive been a bit inactive but playing some vrchat again
is there a way to see your own status
New User/User/KnownUser
quartz basin
Open your menu, there you will see your rank
chrome scarab
aight
north axle
You know, back in mid-2017, when I heard everyone was making avatars on their own, I spent half a week doing nothing but work in Blender, and nothing worked. I was pretty frustrated, so I made a generic Stephen Hawking avatar because it didn't need animations, and it worked pretty well.
chrome scarab
oof user, thought ive been around for quite some time
tacit plank
Give me your name and I will look it up lol