Now I know there has been this confusion with Level Design and Environment Art sometimes in #level-design also, with block-out and then composition feedback, feeling like it needs a bit more variety in the discussion with "level Design" as there are many principles that do go into it, I feel it should get it's own merged forum.
#Level Design & Environment Art Forums
steel depot
mellow rampart
interesting, it's like a forum
strange pecan
I'd love to see a general shift towards more role based channels, but I'm not sure if that's where this discord is going
generally one of the issues I have with this discord is that there is no real space to discuss design. but equally if you make a design channel, people will misunderstand what design is, just as it often happens with #level-design
but maybe the threaded channels are a solution to this?
topaz burrow
It's both industry's and peoples fault about misunderstanding the roles in game development but at least forums can give a push about clarifying which channel is dedicated to what purpose
steel depot
Very true guy's and yes the industry does need to be a bit more clear about particular roles, instead of the classical game dev term used as it's really chopped up into the nitty gritty of many things MANY as all you know, but at the same time I yeah I don't think this discord is going towards that since they kind of expect you understand the roles and can self advocate in channels, but mainly for the clear picture to many of, well particular subjects and how they should be displayed or, told is what really gets thrown off I think.
But then in the end you can't necessarily blame them, when the industry has like freaking 100+ different sub roles, under "Game Developer" term, I mean at times, its going to be very crazy especially when you have 2 or more roles that may seem or look very similar but have small differences which make big impact it can get very miss-informed. Perhaps down the road using more terms like I am a game artist, where if fits in more specific category's such as maybe texture artist, um environment artist perhaps graphics designer again and then have the game programmer-game developer as programming technical side of the whole part in those roles, also can help, really help things but honestly I think it's literally just practice and research that will ultimately help, understand things clearer.
I mean you get people right who, then get confused and start including graphics into level design, because they don't understand environment art, which ultimately makes them think environment artists are graphics designers in the sense where it's like oh I will go get help on texturing my rock in level design where it should be graphics then, when fitting this "rock" into the environment stages, go to the environment art channel. But you will always have the people who think, you know and sometimes this is the case in some studios but very rare I think 4A games does this, but like level designers work with environment artists on texturing, modeling etc. Then they think like the whole thing consumes graphics design and all this other magnitude of particular things. Point being things can get really wacky and, wonky.
Example from 4A games, under Level Design
RESPONSIBILITIES
We are seeking a talented Game / Level Designer to join our team. The job will require building our game worlds and realizing the vision of the greater design team, developing the plot, theme and rules, and ensuring the highest level of quality immersion is maintained to the level of standards appropriate with our studio pedigree.
Work closely with other Game Designers, Environment Artists and Creative Director to bring the game’s vision to reality.
Build worlds and experiences to the highest level of immersion and believability.
Work with programmers to craft the gameplay experience.
Develop basic underlying principles of the game (game mechanics, levels, etc.).
Use the in-house technology (4A Games Engine) for game creation.
Create and control execution of all essential tasks assigned to other departments using a bug tracking system (Jira).
Test self-created game content as well as the one created by other teammates.
Create necessary accompanying documents for generated and controlled tasks.```And then what really starts throwing most things off is now you get "Level Artist" "3D Environment Artist" and most people are gonna really confuse this all.
strange pecan
Example from 4A games, under Level Design
```AME / LEVEL DESIGNER
RESPONSIBILIT...
I mean you see a pretty clear picture here that everything is about the gameplay experience, so I don't think it's at all misleading. the onus is also on you, as a newbie game developer, to figure these things out for yourself. we can perhaps try and point you towards things, but in the end you are responsible for your own knowledge
even before entering the industry I knew what the responsibilities of a level designer were, and how they would be different from e.g. an environment artist
steel depot
I mean you see a pretty clear picture here that everything is about the gameplay...
Well yeah no sorry that was a bit of a bad example but you get the point
steel depot
even before entering the industry I knew what the responsibilities of a level de...
Correct but not everyone does
But yes as I previously did state it is about the newcomers gaining knowledge on there on but with a few pointers here and there
strange pecan
Well yeah no sorry that was a bit of a bad example but you get the point
the way you present what you're talking about sounds like you seem to think there's a million roles in the industry, when in fact it can probably be boiled down to 5 or so departments. art, design, programming, QA, production.
between those 5, far the most people will be in the first 3 and specialize within a subfield there. for design, there's about 3 specializations that are worth pointing out. for art, there may be 3-4, and for programming there may be 5 to 7. but that's basically it. anyone wanting to get into the industry should be able to very easily filter into those roles, and understand the job descriptions behind them, because that's what they will be doing in 99% of the cases. there would be no point in having named roles if the job descriptions didn't map roughly 1:1 with each other.
so if that was the point you were trying to make, then I don't think it's a good one. now whether we could find better names for the channels here? I think that's something worth considering. I do agree that for instance #graphics gives the wrong implication. but equally, more should be done to inform people about the descriptions of each channel
steel depot
the way you present what you're talking about sounds like you seem to think ther...
This was yes and no I mean I was more of there are some but then many roles that appeal simular to others that then confuse new commers but I agree that the channels can be re-named for better understanding. But ultimately having a merged level design and environment art can allow for more creative art help if you understand where I am going with this.
Like graphics plane and simple texturing materials extra you get the point
strange pecan
This was yes and no I mean I was more of there are some but then many roles that...
I disagree, merging environment art and level design would just make level design #graphics channel number 2
steel depot
I think it starts conflicting when getting well example textures to fit the scene but then that's sort of environment art
strange pecan
you have to understand that level design does not care about cosmetics, so any form of texture work that does not work to inform design intent is irrelevant
level design isn't about what kind of material the landscape has
steel depot
I disagree, merging environment art and level design would just make level desig...
Not necessarily see environment art portion can be getting these "textures" you made for a rock to fit the environment where creating the textures are #graphics purely for understanding
steel depot
level design isn't about what kind of material the landscape has
Correct
But in the eyes of newcomers you know they will think that
strange pecan
Not necessarily see environment art portion can be getting these "textures" you ...
right but even a rock can be replaced by a cube for the sake of level design. it's not important that it's a rock, it's important that it solves a design problem
steel depot
I feel like the term Design and art should also really clear things up
steel depot
right but even a rock can be replaced by a cube for the sake of level design. it...
Correct, and then that's when you have level artists come in etc
strange pecan
sure but whenever you have artists, you're dealing with cosmetics
steel depot
But newcomers you must understand from there eyes they just won't understand
strange pecan
and that's basically it
steel depot
Correct
strange pecan
well they'll have to if they want to enter the industry
there's no point in pandering
strange pecan
I think the best case would be some sort of bot automation listening for keywords
e.g. automatically offering to redirect the question to the appropriate channel
steel depot
When a person comes in level design starts asking questions about well graphics I feel one of the easiest pointers you can give is hey think of level design as Grey boxing if your not doing something simular to it your not in the right place
strange pecan
When a person comes in level design starts asking questions about well graphics ...
you'd have to tell that to every single person. hence why bot responses might be better
steel depot
But then we also need to think where really is the environment art questions really expose to go..
steel depot
you'd have to tell that to every single person. hence why bot responses might be...
True
strange pecan
environment art questions should go in #graphics
and tbh, level design should probably be renamed
or, more likely, removed
strange pecan
because the type of questions that are asked that have to do with the channel descriptions are easily facilitated by the #graphics channel
steel depot
Having it merged with #graphics would be the worst perhaps tho with environment art it will be better than most having to resort to graphics
strange pecan
you've seen what the state of the level design channel is. and how many, out of hundreds of questions, are actually level design based
or even design based in the first place
the correct thing would be to remove the channel
steel depot
Well I mean compositioning a level would go in level design
If this was clearer to people I mean
Ok if the WHOLE THING WAS JUST CLEARER then hey lol we won't have an issueb
Since it's not
Well
strange pecan
there could probably be another channel in its place called something along the lines of #gameplay-implications
which could perhaps serve as a general design channel
steel depot
Or gameplay and design
strange pecan
I hesitate to use the word design
because as you've mentioned, it causes issues for people
strange pecan
when the #design-chat was live, people came in with their "character designs" and asked for feedback
so rather than focusing on what channel maps to what role in the industry, just have channels that map to what those roles do
that way even if people come in with problems, they will be resolved based on the channel, and can through that be informed of what the role that they are doing actually is about
topaz burrow
and tbh, level design should probably be renamed
Maybe #level-editor
It explicitly expresses "editor"
Deciding between #graphics and #level-editor woud be a matter of intelligence if name won't be ambigious
strange pecan
It explicitly expresses "editor"
editor would still be ambiguous
topaz burrow
It's a curse, isnt it
strange pecan
it's a lesson in design
any degree of ambiguity will be used as an argument for posting something in the wrong channel
rocky hazel
Could always make it #level-design-not-the-place-for-your-material-or-other-graphics-related-questions
Rolls off the tongue
steel depot
Guys I think I have a fix
Better than the environment art channel
What about having Level Art
Should clear the diffranchiation between them two
autumn light
In what way would level art be any different from <#221799195806400512> though?
It's #graphics but level art, which is indifferent but we want to clutter the channel list anyway lmao
||/s||
steel depot
In what way would level art be any different from <#221799195806400512> though?
There really isn't but it's to encourage the use of the level chats correctly
autumn light
There really isn't but it's to encourage the use of the level chats correctly
Except just redirect the question to #graphics, and if someone salty for it, it's on them.
Unfortunately people keep dumping environment art questions on #level-design and more people are getting salty on the redirect, it might be as well archived. It's getting into #design-chat again.
steel depot
Dam
Well incase any one is up for it
The only way shit will get sorted is this
Channel 1: Level Design, if your here you should know what that means unless your born from choboka.
Channel 2: Level Art, everything artsy about you and your Level 😜
Channel 3: Environment Art, for all talented artists who just love environment entertainment like my self. 
P.S please take the jokes lightly thank you xD
But in all seriousness Enviroment art chat would be dope
topaz burrow
I support #level-design should be archived from now on
steel depot
I support <#221799337414361089> should be archived from now on
Well ok then.
ebon solar
Yeah #level-design has been essentially dead for years. The ratio of LD questions to other is insanely out of whack. Archive it. I can't see how it currently serves any real tangible benefit to the server as a whole.
steel depot
But then wll where realy would our design questions go when we need it.
ebon solar
In ue4 or ue5 general, considering the volume of LD posts, this would not create havoc in those channels 😄
rocky hazel
Poor #level-design ;-;