Or at least an arbitrary certain amount of time in the server? I believe it would offer a space for people who want to avoid random people popping in and asking one off questions and then leaving. Especially for the summertime coming up where you have people coming in and asking the same questions over and over.
#Can we have a voice channel for people who have been here at least 6 months to year?
brisk carbon
strong swift
This would segregate the community. Everyone here is on the same playing field. There are no special treatment for anyone. The reason its like that is to ensure that everyone has the same opportunity.
If we introduce things like this, peope who fit into that special category will have less reason to engage in the “free” channels.
That is counter productive to the type of environment we want here.
mellow crest
I have to wonder as well, what is the problem with people popping in, asking one-off questions and then leaving? It's a help community. It's kind of the point. I guess it'd be better if everyone read all the pins and did research first, but that's not going to happen. And if they ask obvious questions, you can just direct them to those pins. If they then don't want to become part of the community, they don't have to.
cosmic lion
I have to wonder as well, what is the problem with people popping in, asking one...
Yeah it used to annoy me when I first joined but then I realized (may be not 100% accurate analogy but close enough) it's kinda like asking a mechanic what battery to get for your car. They don't expect you to stick around and become a mechanic too. You get help and move on with your life. Communities are better that way IMO I'm much happier this way too.
dense ocean
Heya. I love hanging out in the voice channel and I don't mind at all answering the random questions. And I don't think Copyrighted does either, but there are definitely some serious problems with the VC right now that I think have motivated his request.
The problem i see is that the voice channel often is filled with a lot of rowdy (often relatively new) users who aren't interested in making a game, or aren't serious about making a game, or sometimes who have just plain old abrasive personalities, and disrupt the conversation of those who are serious/interested. The voice channel becomes unpleasant in those times. As a result, some folks have created a few private invite only side servers where people retreat to when Slackers becomes unpleasant. Me included, I must confess. Since the experienced folks no longer hide out on Slackers VC as much, Slackers VC now tends to be more rowdy or less experienced folks, or those not welcome in the side servers, at least in my experience. So what has happened is that:
- these side servers tend to be populated with those who are the most experienced, and thus Slackers loses them
- the community is already segregated. some folks get special access to these side servers and others don't
- since Slackers VC tends to be those who are unwelcome in the side channels, it's more likely to be an unwelcome place to newcomers. I've been present when some very cool and skilled people come in but the channel is in one of those unpleasant times and so they just leave and we never see them again
I don't know whether a six months required channel is the right play here but I do feel strongly that the voice channel isn't meeting the goals of the community that you list and could benefit from some changes to help make sure it's a good place for everybody. At the very least I would like to see better moderation, since the mods got jobs and hang out here much less than previously. The mods are great, just not as present last few months.
strong swift
I appreciate that there is likely some improvements that could be made to the experience in VC. Getting to the root of problem and finding the right solution isn't as straight forward as it may appear.
I must also point out that we already have tools available to users that can help when trying to deal with antisocial users. That being the Apps->Report User function.
There is little we can do to be preemptive about problematic users.
Like any online community, its important individuals play their part in assisting moderation by using these functions. Along with the built in Ignore/Block features of the platform itself.
This might feel like a cop out answer, but we can't stop users from being silly before they do it. We also can't patrol the channels 24/7. The best that can be done, is respond as quickly as we can to Reports that individuals make via that function when issues arise.
I still fail to see the advantage of creating exclusive channels, especially if users are already doing this on their own outside of the Server.
In order to help others who do not have that same access, you still need to cross the threshold back into a "free" channel. Since Discord is so user friendly in its design, it is trivial to swap between Servers. Creating exclusive channels in the Server itself might retain those users within the Server while using VC, but it still comes with the detrimental issue of segregation.
- What is the root problem(s) needing to be addressed?
- How do we address them without compromising the free nature of access to information within the Server?
All communities come with a large spectrum of users that have different interests and capabilities.
How do we best serve the largest proportion of those users.
The reality is, we are always going to lose people on either side of the spectrum. People who are to inexperienced or disinterested will quickly run into roadblocks that cause them to drop off. Individuals who know exactly what they are doing that don't have the temperament to help those on the other end of the spectrum will find it frustrating and exit in the same fashion.
@hoary grail I wouldn't mind your input here.
hoary grail
Summer and Winter breaks (when middle schoolers, high schoolers, and college kids are out on break) it becomes particularly... mmmm.. unpleasant, to a decently dramatic degree. There are certain groups of people who enjoy this influx of random people with lofty dreams of making an MMORPG in 2 weeks while only talking about anime and memes, and there are certain groups who would rather the discussions be more grounded in the purpose of the community with friendly distractions here and there. Unfortunately, that 2nd group (who also tends to be the regulars and also the more knowledgable people), instead of sticking around and trying to cause positive change on this, are quickly out numbered because it's new people with the same pattern every hour, so instead they seek refuge in one of the several other friend servers like @dense ocean is referring to.
I don't know what a solution would be, as I also feel we should NOT (apparently i missed the NOT when typing this) segregate and gatekeep access to information, whether by time or by money. However, the segregation is happening because people are running away and fleeing for safer waters during these times of the year.
Which then also has the adverse effect, that once they come back after the summer and winter school breaks, the "vibes" of VC have changed, and take time to get back to normal from the influence of the regulars to get it back on track.
It's tricky and is the ebb and flow of VC for many years now.
Part of the challenge with reporting people is how do you report "being overly annoying, steering the conversation off topic, and being disruptive" in a way that won't read as "ugh, someone just complaining about another user's personality in VC". Realistically, a report about this often times lacks context, and by the time staff gets to it, the person is no longer in VC to begin with, and the more knowledgeable users have already ran to another server.
We could potentially require a 7 day requirement for being in the server, before they can speak in VC? We have that for streaming features. So then people who join, can type in the chat, see how people behave, and then when they get the ability to speak, perhaps behave a bit better?
We also need some further advancements in our logs like "Reports: XXX" that shows how many times a user has been reported, and potentially link to those reports? Our current tools make seeing repeatedly reported behavior tricky beyond memory or staff going and doing additional intentional research. Perhaps if we had something like that, we could identify patterns of behavior that on one off scenarios isn't a problem but repeated shows a pattern of behavior that paints a more clear picture.
strong swift
Summer and Winter breaks (when middle schoolers, high schoolers, and college kid...
Seeing how many times a person has been Reported is a nice idea in general.
Is there evidence to support the idea that these "seasonal" troublemakers are those with new accounts (to the server) no older than 7 days?
What proportion of these troublemakers would fit into that category?
hoary grail
hmmm, maybe 50% so it's definitely not a great solution but 50% would still be a noticeable change and perhaps be the difference in making the "outnumbered" feeling get reduced dramatically, perhaps even to the point where it feels manageable or even tolerable.
and evidence? not documented, but 5+ years of seeing it twice a year happen on schedule
strong swift
@eager rover I could imagine this would be a relatively easy thing to add?
hoary grail
the quote we tend to use is "oh god, is it summer time already?"
strong swift
I would think that the Bot can easily add a role to new user accounts that restricts their VC perms, then checks if that restriction has expired when they next enter VC and remove the role?
Could even get users to request the perms instead, in the same way we use !stream.
It could even come with an acknowledgement.
That outlines our expectations.
For proper dequorum in VC.
hoary grail
in #voice-log if we can add a (server age) or something to the log so we can see these types of patterns would be easier as well
and we already have a 7 days requirement for streaming permissions on the server, in theory we could use the same thing
brisk carbon
Maybe make it so people can join voice chat but they can't talk for a certain time period. So they can still learn but aren't restricted from knowledge.
strong swift
Maybe make it so people can join voice chat but they can't talk for a certain ti...
I think thats what he suggested
hoary grail
correct
brisk carbon
Oh I didn't pick up on that. Whoops. 😄
dense ocean
Hey Matt. Thanks for replying. It's a tough problem for sure
I have been getting better at using the reporting tools. Since VC is transient and generally not recorded it's tough to issue reliable reports. I have taken to starting to record disruptive users so that mods have more info, and that has produced better results.
VC also has the problem that disruptive users are more disruptive than in the text channels. If someone is being a jerk in a text channel you can mute them and continue your discussion with the people you like. If someone is being a jerk in a voice channel they shut down the entire channel to any productive discussion unless you can convince a substantial number of other people to also mute them.
The problem of new users flooding the channel is real, but I don't believe is the entire picture. Often it us folks who have been here for a while who cause disruptions. A 7 day restriction on talking might help but wouldn't address the whole picture.
I would also worry with a 7 day talk restriction that new users might not understand why they can't talk or know to use the text channel. They might think everyone is ignoring them, which isn't very welcoming
I have found that sometimes when the channel is in an unpleasant state it is people who don't realize that this is a professional working channel and that the things they say are being heard by working professionals. Sometimes if I imply that I work in the industry, ("When I worked on Call of Duty...") they start moderating themselves.
Other times it is people whose personalities conflict, or when there are simply a lot of people who all want to talk and not many want to listen. Nobody is saying anything objectionable, but the conversation is just untenable. If Mippi or some mod is around generally they say "ok calm down folks" but if there's no mod I have found the best thing to do is say (or type in the voice chat) "I'm going to another channel, anyone who wants to have a more chill vibes convo is welcome there" and hope that the unpleasantness doesn't follow.
This is just to give a view of what sort of problems happen. These are the sorts of situations that have caused folks to move to side servers. I can't speak for everyone but I would guess that most would prefer to remain in Slackers VC if these issues could be improved.
crimson wind
As someone who does particularly enjoy going to the voice channels of gamedev servers - I typically avoid UE's specifically because of the general vibe. I have joined around 5 times and only one of them, was it actually gamedev focused.
In the Godot server (the main one before the foundation made their own), the way it was setup was that there were multiple gamedev specific channels. If there was any long running topics that were being discussed that was not gamedev - it would require that you take the conversation somewhere else. This still lets the occasional offhand topic to happen, but it was not allowed to monopolize the chat.
We also had off-topic voice channels were you were free to talk about w/e (within reason). And a dedicated help channel where off-topic talk was strictly forbidden.
If at any point in time, someone popped in to ask a question about gamedev, if the topic wasn't already gamedev related - that topic immediately stops and help is provided. Once the individual has been helped, then the topic can resume if desired. But gamedev/help was always the number one priority.
I moderated this setup for about 5-6 years without many of the complaints that we are seeing in this very thread.
I also think the names of the channel matter. I know the historical reasoning for changing them. But I feel the names give off more of a non-professional vibe anyway. So right from the onset, it starts with this misunderstanding.
mellow crest
That is exactly how it works in the text channels tbh.
dense ocean
As someone who does particularly enjoy going to the voice channels of gamedev se...
FWIW many of us do this already as an unwritten rule. but it's not a written rule and we do get carried away with ourselves sometimes. i would not mind seeing it written
patent ruin
People love going on tangents. Sometimes not related to anything gamedev related much less unreal. While, it's nice to have a bit of a break with regular conversation, sometimes it tends to go on.
Overshadows the general vibe of the channel being professionals tryna do work, to something off topic like Politics or Talking about things which might put off new people joining in to ask a question.
I used to participate more in Voicechat, Try to help, but when the crowd gets rowdy, an "Unreal Question" gets overshadowed cuz somebody wanted to keep talking about something completely unrelated which the general audience of the VC wasn't particularly interested in the first place.
Don't want to sound like a dick, but that's been my experience these past 2 years I think.
strong swift
As someone who does particularly enjoy going to the voice channels of gamedev se...
it would require that you take the conversation somewhere else.
How does that work exactly?
The thing I am struggling with is enforcement.
Its all well and good to identify that people want a space they can work professionally in while also participating in VC, that does not have constant interruptions.
How do we solve for that?
patent ruin
Well, we don't want to do it in a way which alienates new Talent.
who knows they might be the next Kojima lol
I think there needs to be more than just @hoary grail who has Mod powers join in VC regularly.
Usually is very tame when a Mod is around, but he can't be there all the time.
crimson wind
The thing I am struggling with is enforcement.
The way we did it, and mind you, we only had like 2 actually active voice mods at the time - and I believe the server is actually bigger than this one (last pfist and I compared stats), is enforce it while we were there. Like, hardcore. That sets the tone. So then once the culture becomes more associated with that - the people who are there more regularly will also enforce it, even if they don't have power to move someone. So then new comers will see this and recognize it as the status quo and then so on and so forth.
Is it perfect? No. Will it always work? No. But all it takes, for the most part, is a culture shift honestly. All mods were accessible to enforce the rules at all times.
Not something that'll happen overnight obviously.
strong swift
The way we did it, and mind you, we only had like 2 actually active voice mods a...
This is how we were/are approaching it right now?
limber yarrow
Can I recommend altering the names of the channels to actually represent what they should be used for, with a pinned message in the channel chat describing what that channel should be used for. I would recommend a Helper 1-3, Working 1-3, Chill 1-3, Slacking/Gaming 1-3.
Alternately, I've seen a mob or setup where a user could send a message to a bot, and a temp channel would be generated. The user that creates that channel would be given local mod powers (remove or mute in channel) only over that channel. If the creating user leaves, it destroys the channel.
strong swift
Can I recommend altering the names of the channels to actually represent what th...
@eager rover Chose the channel names from memory.
Personally, I would have preferred them to be more serious.
eager rover
<@84183781501571072> Chose the channel names from memory.
It was a collaboration with Mippi.
hoary grail
I wanted to name a channel #blendersux
brisk carbon
See, this is the kind of tomfoolery we face in the voice chat.
limber yarrow
But for real, please do look at the custom channel operation. I think it would lead to a great deal of self-policing and reduce the burden on mods
brisk carbon
Has there been any consideration to change the channel names as well? Just wondering if there's discussion going on right now about it or did you guys (admins/mods) decide not to go that route?
strong swift
Has there been any consideration to change the channel names as well? Just wond...
We have onboarded 2 new Moderators to help with house keeping in the VC channels.
We want to see how more active presence affects the issue before moving forward with any other actions.
obtuse lintel
Excuse me for barging in here directly.
Maybe i can add some noob perspective here.
I am new to Voice Chat stuff.
How does this Voicechat feature here work?
Can everyone join a VC Channel and start talking?
How is this managed with many people, when all talk to the same time?
And would it be useful to create curated VC channels with a specific theme so that people know in advance what will be mainly discussed there?
The existing names are not really telling me what's talked about, to abstract naming.
Ok i see there is more info on the Server FAQ.
So maybe add the description from there also to the VC Channel description directly, like it is on the text chats, if this is possible?
And maybe more granular Names for the general development discussion?
Or do I join a VC that already has people and see how things are going?
And for certain conversations, we switch to another VC channel here on the server?
Can we users open new temporary channels for this purpose?
Also the Screenshares, can i watch them silently and can also speak in it?
Thx for clarification.