Could we get a channel dedicated to game design theory (like the kind of stuff this legend makes videos on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-DnOIeasA&list=PLgKCjZ2WsVLSllvUzbkHIQurVIJdhAQ4m )
As well as world building, etc.
#Game design theory channel
shy trellis
shell thorn
We have tried a #design-chat channel before.
But 90% of people do not understand its purpose and missuse the channel.
It suffers from a similar problem that #level-design does.
shy trellis
But 90% of people do not understand its purpose and missuse the channel.
That's kind of amusing, because when posting this I actually had this possibility occur to me, I actually decided not to post it yesterday, but today I thought might as well ask π€£
That's rather unfortunate
shell thorn
That's rather unfortunate
Indeed
We have tried over the years different ways to present such a channel, but its clear that its difficult for the majority to grasp what type of discussion its attempting to facilitate.
shy trellis
I was thinking you could make it specifically about discussing his videos and topics related to his videos, to provide a clear purpose
Since actual game design = topic related to his videos
Of course, that doesn't mean everyone who participates will realize, but so long as there's a pin with that info we can direct anyone off-topic to it
shell thorn
We arent going to promote a single Youtuber, especially given the abstract nature of the topic.
And that it would only be indirectly related to UE
shy trellis
Yeah didn't think so. Well thanks for considering it
shell thorn
There is nothing stopping you from bringing up the topic in the other channels.
shy trellis
Its a pity that Discord doesn't have a feature where channels have their own rules separate from the server that you can read/agree to before participation
shell thorn
Unfortunately, I dont think that would stop missuse in this case.
I think the fact that "Game Design" as an abstract concept is difficult for people who are only casually using tools like UE to grasp
shy trellis
Yeah. Oh well, that's unfortunate. Because the type of content that typically gets posted in #design-chat kinds of channels is actually super boring/unappealing to me π
I imagine with #level-design as well there will be a lot of people posting about how to create levels, not about design theory
shell thorn
As ive explained, we have gone through so many iterations of names and descriptions you can think of.
People still didnt get it
wide citrus
Lol
shell thorn
And at the end of the day, when we enforced the "ontopic" rule, it just became dead.
Meaning that not a lot of people actually wanted to discuss theory
And it meant that a dedicated channel was unnecessary.
shy trellis
Its possible that due to the boring content that usually gets wrongfully posted in those kinds of channels turns people away from them
But I'm not in disagreement, I'm fine with the channel not happening π
shell thorn
Especially given the other difficulties it presented
Personally, I would like a channel like that as well.
Its just one of those things where our audience is majority to casual to get it.
From our experience.
shy trellis
Yup. Its a side effect of how accessible game dev is now, largely thanks to unreal. Lot of people building games like lego.
Its not a bad thing, but it has a huge effect on such communities
It also affects the content that gets popular in #1054845120236757103 , lot of experienced devs don't seem to even bother looking/posting because its all stuff thats been pieced together from MP
azure fiber
Game Dev League have that channel,
I talked a lot about game design in there, and sometimes i talked in #lounge too
I have a feeling unreal people, or people join this server are more like the technical folks, and wouldn't fit into a serious game design conversation
wide citrus
The majority of people here aren't here to discuss their game design, they're just here for help making it.
shy trellis
The majority of people here aren't here to discuss their game design, they're ju...
In a sense that's a little ironic
Maybe semantics, but you could almost interpret that as they're here for help making a bad game instead of learning how to make good games π€£ Because isn't that what game design theory is?
I feel like game design is just not something that occurs to most newer devs, though its also a matter of priority, because you need to know how to many any game first
I think it also just takes time to learn that what you think will work doesn't work and then you start asking yourself why doesn't it work / how do I make it work (or you go on reddit and write a post-mortem blaming everything but)
If nothing else, then you could say its more of a topic to be taught rather than discussed
wide citrus
To be honest, game design theory doesn't matter to most of the people here. They either fall into 2 categories: 1) hobbyists who have their dream vision and 2) people who work for companies and have little input into the actual direction/design.
shy trellis
Guess so. I got into it before there was much prospect of earning actual money, which I suppose game dev does do now
wide citrus
There's definitely room for game design talk, I just don't think it matters to most people!
(when it really should)
shy trellis
Yup (we're in agreement)
modest tendon
There is definitely a large enough amount of game-dev and related topics that could likely support its entirely own discord server, not engine specific.
Everything from color-theory, accessibility, game design, worldbuilding, etc..
It'd likely be far easier to enforce rules in that context
lucid herald
We regularly discuss channels for soft skills, we're discovering ways to potentially increase the usefulness of this server for many types of soft skills. Past attempts for soft skills have not been successful as the amount of newbies in the industry that are FULL of questions, misunderstand what these channels mean, and dominate the channels with the wrong types of conversations. We'll figure it out eventually, but know that it is a plan to eventually support these properly. It's just a not the easiest of things to solve.
shy trellis
We regularly discuss channels for soft skills, we're discovering ways to potenti...
I can tell you guys get it 100% π I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Any ideas I think of feel pretty fruitless. Is it worth restricting new users out of the channels? I'm saying it knowing it's not going to be a good idea π
azure fiber
There is definitely a large enough amount of game-dev and related topics that co...
but honestly that server would be full of unity devs, and they are nowhere are smart as unreal folks
you need a server that talk about theories and contain unreal users only
xd
shy trellis
If you frequent #industry-chat and #fab you'll see almost daily posts where people have completely misunderstood the channel
And their purposes are significantly clearer including to people who aren't experienced game devs
I mean... I don't think that has anything to do with one specific channel
If you wanted to make it clearer the easiest option is the bot Asher's tech art chamber uses in the showcase channel, that always has the last message
shy trellis
We regularly discuss channels for soft skills, we're discovering ways to potenti...
I don't think any of these suggestions solve mipi's concerns
( Just checked the profile, if you want mippi its γγγ )
azure fiber
Rejected lol
Honestly i can't even find a good discord server about game design
At this rate i'll ended up like Palworld where myself make the most random decisions to my game
tranquil birch
Game Design resources are incredibly hard to come across
I've relied on GMTK, random documents I found in various corners of the internet and then I started analyzing games myself to see why something's designed the way it is
now I just trial and error
wide citrus
And human addictions.
tranquil birch
"just"
shy trellis
There is way more to it than that
Look up 'game feel' for one thing
shy trellis
No it doesn't.
Sometimes things are subjective or open to interpretation. Sometimes they're plain wrong
What. No and no. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_feel
Apparently now we're using the feedback channel as the game design theory channel
This is one of the most vital concepts for movement based games like platformers. Yooka-Laylee had awful game feel. Players identify other issues like the camera because they don't know how to identify something that is simply not there at all
Game feel is one of the most vital concepts in game design, even if it could be included under the UX umbrella (it can't) it would be absurd to do so
Yeah but keeping it on topic is another story
shy trellis
If you ride a bicycle you will countersteer naturally, without ever understanding, and possibly without even realizing you're doing it.
One of the biggest breakthroughs in motorcycle racing was discovering the physics and science behind countersteering so you can make practiced and trained choices based on specific knowledge; long before this discovery, everyone was still doing it.
Naturally, the same goes for game design too. The comment "If a game mechanic is fun, let it be fun..?" makes it sound like you're talking about a different topic. You want to be able to intentionally reproduce mechanics that have good game feel, you're not trying to get lucky and you're certainly not removing fun mechanics based on it. The whole point of having a channel to discuss this stuff is literally the reasoning here, putting something into words so you can specifically use it as a tool is worth it's weight in gold.
The #1 thing on my mind when I am adjusting my character's movement properties is always how it feels to the player. Perhaps the disconnection is because you think its about coming up with the idea for a mechanic; it's not, its about making those existing mechanics feel good/satisfying to the player. But sure, coming up with mechanics would be relevant to a game design channel too.
shy trellis
I think you just didn't understand the example, either that or choosing not to in an effort to not be wrong or something. I'm not sure there's much point in debating tho π