you cannot
#career-chat
tidal moth
hybrid phoenix
I'd be very happy if you could
There have been various plugins working towards C# integration
gleaming shard
I've seen python being integrated lately though, i don't know if that's any better though, from what i read if you suggest python for games people turn up their noses at it
hybrid phoenix
But they've all stranded
Python is to C# what C# is to C++
But then python is actually worse than that
But the biggest problem with python (imo) is lack of control
As for it being integrated, it is for editor-utility
gleaming shard
it's starting to sound like which limb do you want to chop off in order to get the job done xD
hybrid phoenix
Don't think you can actually create a game with it
gleaming shard
ah gotcha ^
nova tartan
python is fantastic
just not really for games
hybrid phoenix
I'm just not really a fan of dynamic typing tbh
tidal moth
but speed
hybrid phoenix
Matter of habits
tidal moth
we should all do lisp
gleaming shard
dynamic typing - this is where the subsequent options appear after a keyword?
hybrid phoenix
Dynamic typing is when you don't have to explicitly declare your variable types
tidal moth
it's where the type of a variable isn't defined by the variable
hybrid phoenix
I.e. in python can just say
tidal moth
it's defined what you put into the variable
hybrid phoenix
number += 1
And it'll then infer that the variable "number" is some kind of int or something
What that means though
gleaming shard
ah right yeah swift did this to
hybrid phoenix
Is that your errors are moved from compile-time to runtime
Because python does the type-checking while it runs
In C# if I try to add a string to an int, I'll get a compiler error when I save it
In Python it'll compile just fine and just not work
😛
nova tartan
I love dynamic typing
gets rid of a whole step when writing code
hybrid phoenix
According to people who like Python it speeds up the workflow and makes it easier
Point in case
gleaming shard
I understand, to recap then, Blueprint jobs not likely around in other than smaller companies where your gonna be filling more than one role, BP to C++ is transferrable but will still be a pain in the ass
hybrid phoenix
Having started in a static-typed language, I find they barely make a difference in terms of programming speed, and it makes the program's structure clearer to me
Yup, pretty much
But then what I say about Python's dynamic typing
C++ peeps say about my dislike for pointers and such
tidal moth
functional languages are speedy af tho
and all of them have dynamic typing
well not as the only feature
hybrid phoenix
I've never done anything other than object-oriented, so I wouldn't really know
(Not properly, anyway)
gleaming shard
Ooh I've got one more q, what's the motivation for learning C++ in place of BP? I hear that computationally its quicker but i remember watching a vid from epic a while back that showed at runtime BP's weren't a significant cost above traditional code, there must be operations you can't accomplish right?
nova tartan
Faster
There's a whole industry of tools and practices for writing code but only one company supports blueprints
hybrid phoenix
there must be operations you can't accomplish
This
Aside from C++ being faster, which it is if you've got a good engineer writing the code
There's lots of things that just literally cannot be done in Blueprint, because they're not exposed by Epic
One very low-hanging fruit is, for instance, multi-threading
Writing thread-safe blueprints would be... Well, it'd be tough
But there's lots of things that would very much benefit from proper threading in CPU-heavy games
gleaming shard
I see, thanks for the points guys, I've started watching the tut on the epic online learning and was pretty much reading out the points you both made as you typed them haha
tidal moth
cpp is lightning in a bottle. it is insanely fast since it can be optimized to handle gc and memory allocation per project. not only that, but the fact that classes don't exist past compile time means that functions don't have to adhere to costly principles and become very fast instead.
steel creek
Mr4Goosey: But the biggest problem with python (imo) is lack of control Explain?
if its just about dynamic typing vs static, you have flavors of python with static typing, and in 3.x + you have variable hinting anyway
the only downside, to me, for python vs c# vs c++ is simply speed.
hybrid phoenix
It was about dynamic typing, yeah
Like I said, I've never gone very far into python
Was forced to follow some basic-level course at some point, which probably would've been alright had it been my first exposure to programming, but as an avid C#'er it just frustrated me like no tomorrow 😛
merry sequoia
Python is bae. Wish I could use it for UE4 but speed > quality of life I suppose
hybrid phoenix
Replace Python with C# in that sentence and that's me
tidal moth
I've gone to the level of starting to expose cpp functionality to use in BP now
I find it enjoyable
hybrid phoenix
That's probably how I'd end up using it as well
I've really developed a liking for blueprints over the years
steel creek
replace anything in any sentence with c# or python and that is me 😄
gentle chasm
@gleaming shard
another fundamental advantages of C++ (as language used to write entire engine)
- Blueprints is a black box, you don't actually know how things work - you can only rely on function comments ;)
- while starting to learn C++, the first crucial thing is that now you can read engine code and understand what actually happens, debug things properly
- and you can write custom systems and editors, your limited mostly by your skills - in Blueprint you just using the small "subset of Object Oriented Programming in C++"
merry sequoia
lol
tidal moth
I mean one thing I love from cpp over BP is that I can use lambda expressions
hybrid phoenix
I can read C++ just fine, I just don't use it, so I've gone through source code before for BP definitions
Reading C++ is no harder than other languages
Writing it is
steel creek
Writing it well I would say
gentle chasm
and last thing: blueprint editing really sucks, Epic didn't improve it too much since release of the UE4, it's constant jumping between mouse and keyboard... some plugins make it better though...
hybrid phoenix
I use the electronics nodes plugin to avoid the spaghetti
steel creek
well, in the case of BP, is the tool the language?
hybrid phoenix
As for blueprint editing... Matter of acclimation?
steel creek
cause they seem more related than say, opening notepad and writing c, c++, c# or python, e.g.
that is why I dont consider BP anything more than a pseudo-lang
tidal moth
BP is code
hybrid phoenix
I definitely wouldn't call BP a normal programming language either
steel creek
BP is code, eventually?
tidal moth
are you passing instructions? if yes, then it's a language
steel creek
its the eventually part that makes it not a lang imo
that is a low bar to define a language?
hybrid phoenix
But then the same can be argued for API's in i.e. C++
Because you're not programming bits 😛
steel creek
yeah, that is not enough of a define, sorry
it checks the major boxes for logic flow, bit ops, math, etc...
hybrid phoenix
That said this is really a matter of semantics
steel creek
it doesnt check the box for implementation. You require a special tool.
tidal moth
everything gets converted to assembly eventually, which in turns gets converted to transistor switches
hybrid phoenix
I suspect you could write an extra layer to create blueprints in
The way blueprints are used to create c++
tidal moth
so what's your point by arbitrarily drawing a line between what is and isn't code
hybrid phoenix
and c++ is used to create assembly
steel creek
the literal define for programing language is something that has gramatical rules. By its very nature (visual) its not comparable to modern written languages. If anything it is a new sub-set genre.
merry sequoia
Arent all languages code “eventually” because they need compiled?
steel creek
but all do have gramatical rules.
tidal moth
BP does not?
hybrid phoenix
But then so does BP to some extent
Just depends how far you stretch the definition of grammar 😛
steel creek
to some extent < covers all
tidal moth
can you put an execution thread into an int pin?
gentle chasm
node graph is set of rules too 😉
exactly as scopes in written programming language
If statement translates to visual graph nicely
merry sequoia
BP grammar just has guard rails to show you their usage where cpp doesn’t
tidal moth
it's a wishy washy way of gatekeeping really. another guy came in with this argument some time ago, he got dragged
steel creek
can you write that IF statement graph in text and have teh graph subsequently display?
its the tool requirement I think that seperates it most from modern langs
you can write cobol in vim.
you cant do that with bp
gentle chasm
that's why it's called "visual programming" or scripting 😉
tidal moth
technically it's not scripting though
it goes through a compiler
so it's not a true script
gentle chasm
nobody says it's the same kind of language, still a language
pastel estuary
ehm, career is slow atm so im not too bothered.. but what has the current convo to do with career?
steel creek
Yeah its compiled
merry sequoia
It started out in terms of needing to learn cpp for positions
tidal moth
we're angrily deciding who is or isn't a programmer
pastel estuary
ahh
steel creek
ahah
pastel estuary
meh, continue :p
mystic hull
🤣
hybrid phoenix
I dropped out about a minute ago 😛
steel creek
doing that only hurts myself, so, negative.
and to be on that topic, on careers, make that argument (engineers and software designers here) that what you contribute is also art. It is.
tidal moth
ok it's getting very philosophical
mystic storm
hybrid phoenix
^That's pretty much this discussion
tidal moth
if you throw a stick to your dog and the dog fetches, you are programming
gentle chasm
no, you're programming a dog if you give him reward for fetching a stick 😛
mystic storm
no in that case you are training a neural network
nova tartan
I really like blueprints conceptually, my problems with them stem from bugs, a few lacking features, and just not being fast enough
Like if my blueprint file gets corrupted, it seems to be toast and has to be remade from scratch, whereas a code file is just text
Or random features in blueprints just not working as I'd expect, like checking boxes that don't work
tidal moth
@nova tartan I get that, and I agree there is an issue with file corruption. it's arbitrary as well since all blueprints copy paste to plaintext
hybrid phoenix
Yup
tidal moth
I guess it's the file size reduction of serializing though
anyway
totally off topic at this point
tidal moth
we should move to... uhhh
hybrid phoenix
Yes.
hybrid phoenix
¯_(ツ)_/¯
blazing talon
Blueprints make a turing complete language. (TIL or more like couple of days ago IL)
vocal meadow
Officially code now? Heh
blazing talon
Depends on your definition of code 🙂
tardy radish
Can someone help me, how make a moba?
blazing talon
@tardy radish You would need two of the three:
- Money, 2) Expertise, 3) Time
vocal meadow
@tardy radish check #more-resources but you can easily waste all three of the above. It’s off topic but consider making any game being a creative process where your going to need to think of much more than how do I do.
wooden pasture
Hey guys I have a phone interview coming up for a Jr. Gameplay Programmer position and was if anyone could help me with some general interview questions? You can DM me if you'd like!
daring geyser
@wooden pasture Treat it like any other coding interview. Most likely to be asked about OOP principles, algorithm design (leetcode has free challenges you can practice, with varying levels of difficulty), vector math definitions and applications, and general problem solving/riddles (mostly for evaluating how you handle breaking down more - involved and/or complex tasks). Depending on the company, you may also be asked to design some high level features like a core mechanic or network feature.
west sonnet
plucky hatch
Hi folks ! 🙂 I'm a 15 years old kid (OMG a kid, where's the flamethrower ?) and I would appreciate a few answers about online works. Did you folks even been scammed or scammed someone ? Like paying a sum upfront and then the work is the never finished. Or something like expecting a model from a 3D Artist but the final product is meh... ? If so how many times did it happened to you ? Also do you have some tricks to avoid being scammed ? Thank you for your attention ! 🙂
west sonnet
Scams happen all the time yes
mystic hull
Hire a reputable dev, request invoices - you can usually dispute & chargeback if the work has not been finished or sent (at least through paypal)
^ sums up my experience
Haven't been scammed before as im usually the guy getting hired, but thats what most people request
west sonnet
The primary issue is a miscommunication of expectation. Which isn’t technically a scam but often feels like it.
mystic hull
^
gleaming swan
@west sonnet it works now it was slow respond lol
mystic hull
As for being 15 years old, I don't see what's wrong with having a biological age? 🤔
west sonnet
Head start
gleaming swan
huh whats going on?
west sonnet
We’re all jealous
gleaming swan
ohh ok
west sonnet
Though we do need to keep in mind. Prison school environment is all they’ve experienced more or less. It’s a far cry from reality
mystic hull
Head start
@west sonnet Exactly. If anything, it's great.
gleaming swan
yeah scams happens most of time just gotta research his bg, works, vouches etc
true
vale belfry
Just saw this channel!
I'm currently in my 3rd year of getting a degree in Computer Science. I have an average coding experience, about a year in Unity, and some experience in Unreal engine all which I have done as a hobby.
Being from India, which unfortunately isn't a huge market for Game Development (except for some start ups focused on developing Hyper-Casual games).
What would be the best way of getting a ticket out to areas where Game Industry is a bit more active? I'm considering doing masters in Game Design but that really is a last resort.
What would you recommend with your experience for me to learn/do to help my chances of getting in this sector?
west sonnet
Don’t take a degree in game design. It means nothing in the industry. Computer science degree is at least transferable to other industries and will be a huge help when trying to relocate to other countries.
vale belfry
Yeah that is what I have read upto now on higher education in game design, that no one actually cares where you went
west sonnet
What a studio wants is a portfolio. Show that you have applicable skills. Networking (socializing with other industry people) is also extremely important
vale belfry
What would be the necessary skills required for a game programmer? afaik they would be Algorithms, Logic, experience with other SDKs. Anything else I'm missing?
ashen lynx
codingame would give you good rough overview of what gameplay programming is. You can check it, before diving deeper.
vale belfry
Oh yeah that. One last thing. Umm, this is like a stupid question, but how do I show my networking skills if I don't actually have any industry exposure apart from discord 🤦♂️ .
Honestly, I can work with others but yeah how do I show it xD
plucky hatch
@west sonnet @mystic hull Wow that was quick thanks for the early answers. So nearly everybody looking for work is a scammer am I right ? 😁 The paypal chargeback seems like a good feature but I wonder if it really works like how can you prove that he/she didn't delivered your 3d model ? Also the "flamethrower" joke it's just because most people seems to reject -18 people, like I was often forbidden entry in some teams (video-games) due to my age (and not maturity lol) 🤣
vale belfry
@ashen lynx I'll look into that! Thanks!
ashen lynx
I believe someone somewhere even used codingame for internships picking.
vale belfry
Lets hope I'm good at it then :x
west sonnet
There can be legal issues when hiring someone below 18. I’m not surprised.
vale belfry
@west sonnet Thank you again for your response. Appreciate it!
west sonnet
There’s more industry vets lurking in here than you realize. I got my job by giving a free doughnut in here for example.
plucky hatch
@west sonnet When I say video-games I don't mean an indie company right ? 😆 I mean a team like a clan / alliance in overwatch for example
Really ? Well you're a lucky one...I think I'll wait a bit before diving in the industry (though I don't exclude questions ahah) Thanks for the tips !
@west sonnet
mystic hull
@plucky hatch The rejection part probably has to do with laws, child labour is long gone my friend! No offense 😅
As for the chargebacks, I've never had someone charge back against me tbh, but afaik it's usually the employee/service provider that has to prove they sent you the files and/or actually send the files. Don't quote me on that though, might want to contact them about it.
As a general rule of thumb, strangers are bad, until they're good. Especially on the internet.
There’s more industry vets lurking in here than you realize. I got my job by giving a free doughnut in here for example.
@west sonnet Teach me your ways of conjuring spells 👀
hybrid phoenix
Can't speak for the donut-and-getting-a-job part
But there's definitely quite a few vets here
west sonnet
vocal meadow
it's glorious
lucid dragon
Any recruiters lurking in here? I'm curious how the recruitment site; jobvite works. I've been on the hunt for a job recently and a lot of studios seem to use jobvite as their recruitment application, it seems like a very automated system as ive gotten the same email with just a different studio logo a few times. So my question is how does it work? It is automated? If so how is it reading CV's / cover letters? Or are you in control etc?
vocal meadow
lurkers don't talk 🔪, but if you get bombarded with dm's let us know
blazing talon
@lucid dragon what kind of email did you receive? Acknowledgement of your application?
That would be automative - yes. Than your cv would go through automative screening, than HR screening than they might reach out to you.
Usual stats are 100 applications - 2 or 3 interviews for low experience or low demand jobs.
hybrid phoenix
Do you generally hear anything back if you're rejected?
mystic hull
Usually you get a Thanks for your interest in X. We've decided to <insert selected another candidate in a nice way synonym> as we're looking for <if it's not a junior job, they might list a reason>
lucid dragon
Yeah similar to what @mystic hull has put, I've had the following text 6 times:
Hi xx,
RE: Associate Producer - New IP application
Thanks for your application.
We have carefully considered your skills and experience for the role and unfortunately, on this occasion you have been unsuccessful.
Due to the high number of applications we receive, we are unable to give feedback. We'd like to thank you again for your interest in joining the studio creative team.
Many thanks,
Studio, Talent Team
@blazing talon this is the email I usually get, but it's not written personally is automated
So what I'm sort of trying to find out is, how does the automated system scan your CV, is it looking for keywords
I just find it an easier blow on rejection if it's personal rather than automated
jaunty drift
Jobvite in particular has some vague information here and there scattered around that will reveal what the automation is taking into account to rank each applicant, https://www.jobvite.com/candidate-engagement/what-every-job-candidate-should-know-about-submitting-a-resume-to-an-applicant-tracking-system-ats/
blazing talon
@lucid dragon first your cv might be so bad it fails to parse and doesnt detect your degree for exampel, and if they have that kind of filter set up than - instant rejection.
so look into the format, make sure its parsed correctly, etc. Sending docx helps instead of pdf
marsh stream
WHAT?! I've been sending PDFs the whole time : O . why is that? is the software just able to obtain info more easily from docx?
I also thought PDF was way more professional
nova tartan
I don't like receiving proprietary format resumes but I can open a PDF anywhere
That said I don't know how it works with various recruitment websites
nova tartan
also I believe docx will open differently if they use a different program to read it which might break the formatting
tidal moth
I genuinely don't believe the file format of your CV has an influence. if you stand out, you stand out
if you're worried about visibility, speak to an external recruiter and see if they can help you out getting in touch.
with that said I stay the hell away from job applications apps. but to be fair I might be in the cushy position of never having to look far for a potentially new position.
nova tartan
If you are a junior level applying, and I have 70 applications to go through
it doesn't help if your application is in an annoying file format with potentially broken formatting
tidal moth
bingo
pdf is the default, chances are with docx I wouldn't even bother opening that
you want to streamline the process for the people looking through applications, not block them from doing their work
flat gazelle
Yeah, stick with PDF
merry sequoia
“HIRE ME IM A HARD WORKER AND CREATIVE. YOU WONT REGRET IT I PROMISE”. In an almost-pure-white background with your info ontop. Subliminally aggressive. ((But dont really))
unique umbra
Take a nice LaTeX format and pdf it, will look nice and professional. Using the Overleaf home page myself used it for contracts, Master thesis, and CV
tidal moth
people might take pity on you if you format stuff in latex
(I said that in jest, they won't actually)
unique umbra
Hyphening for more clarity: https://www.latex-project.org/
fickle hatch
If you’re opening docx, better do it on a machine outside of your game development network
Or through online tools
blazing talon
Well, there is a difference on what I said and what you all are saying.
PDF: Generally more accepted and professional because guarantees the same layout etc independent of the machine and OS or software. (good if humans look at your CV)
DOCX: Automatic software that screens CVs have easier time working with those. (good if bot looks at your CV)
I generally always send PDFs. But it is worth knowing that PDFs very often are incorrectly parsed and your education can be unrecognized or your latest project, etc.
I have not found a reliable way to make CVs in PDF format that are 99% correctly parsed by all bots. I am sticking with the most simplistic format of CVs, so that can't be the reasaon and I tried multiple formattings.
west sonnet
Have you lot never seen pdf automatically fill application forms? Every recreating system and their mother has it.
blazing talon
Oh cool, and how do they do that? Can it be that they actually - parse the doc?
doc as in document, not implying the format.
blazing talon
Its still parsing -_-
All I said is in my experience PDF is consistently parsed worse than docx
ashen lynx
If an entity, relies on parser during recruitment, and said parser can't parse PDF, you might not want to work there.
tidal moth
@west sonnet I've seen them and I generally avoid them if I can get around it
blazing talon
Oh it can parse, even the most basics ones do, it just does a shitty job
tidal moth
going through an external recruiter is better and usually yields more immediate results
blazing talon
agreed
ashen lynx
read can't parse as just does a shitty job at parsing. Rest remains same.
blazing talon
@ashen lynx I have not seen a parser that consitently parses PDF as good as docx
ashen lynx
Yeee... that.. kinda .. is still in line with my claim.
fickle hatch
I think it's because of the technical reasons on how PDF works
I've certainly encountered many PDF's where the text wasn't laid out correctly in the file structure itself - if you tried to select it and copy, it'd copy a really broken bit of text
Just cause of the order in which the text boxes reside in postscript I imagine
tidal moth
in either case it's a moot concern
there's no point in having a docx even if it parses better as you'll still very likely have an incomplete document based on the specific recruitment app being used. upload the CV and use what is being parsed.
don't risk not getting a job based on a parser, do it manually if you have to
blazing talon
Yeah I've been applying only online through direct connections or emails lately (linkedin and such). Results arent comparable.
Last 3 offers I have acquired exactly that way.
flat gazelle
I'll echo deaths sentiment. If the place you are applying to, or the recruiter they use can't handle PDF, you don't want to work there.
hallow tide
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/692179990493790218/692182745140428830/davide-fabrizzi-wsp-feature-plunder-island-po2a.png?width=1097&height=677 how much would you say an island the size of this and the style of this but more realistic would be?
marsh stream
Can remote internships become more a thing, please? 😅
hybrid phoenix
@hallow tide You'll need to specify a bit more what you're looking for. What kind of game? Is it just set-dressing/composing assets? Or would it also entail creating the meshes you want?
tidal moth
<@&213101288538374145> pretty sure this isn't the place for this content?
@marsh stream you might get lucky with more indie studios supporting distributed teams. it's very unlikely that it's going to be a paid internship at first though, since it's usually people without capital
tidal moth
I'd assume this would be for school, given it's an internship... but I could be wrong
nova tartan
It's very very hard to learn if you can't have face to face communication and close proximity to your teachers. You miss so much if you aren't physically present
so remote internships don't really make sense
unless absolutely necessary
basically it's bad for the company trying to train you and bad for you trying to learn
hallow tide
@Mr4Goosey someone basically wants me to make an island that size with the style of sea of theives but a bit more realistic, he also wants me to create all the assets (some trees, rocks, materials, and a few house sized buildings)
nova tartan
that sounds like a very substantial job
My recommendation is keep breaking it down into smaller and smaller tasks until you can concretely say how long each one will take within a reasonable error margin
like you might not know how long an island would take you
but what about one rock? You can probably break that down even further, how long will modelling the rock take? texturing? shaders? etc (I'm not sure on the exact process)
This process itself takes a while so you could add in a charge for even going through all the estimations
Get all these estimations into a spread sheet, add them up, and there's your proposal
be sure to leave some flex room/overtime in a contract, you do NOT want to do unpaid extra work because the client wants changes
marsh stream
@sudden island I definitely prefer paid internships. But if there are zero around, I can't wait around or just continue making my own games. Im dying for experience and yes its not exactly 'great experience' but its better than nothing. : /
@nova tartan i agree. its not ideal. Its not wonderful but with the current state of the world and my level of experience, I feel its my only way to really add to my portfolio.
digital gate
Holding your personal work to the standards you'd have under an internship might be another avenue... difficult to do without knowing what those should be, but it's still worth a shot. Or you could find several people in your situation and collaborate remotely.
tidal moth
for real is this #career-chat anymore?
@marsh stream I definitely agree. I honestly wouldn't give too much of a damn about particulars in your situation, especially if it's a school based internship. you might not learn everything, but being as you're in level design, you'll at least have a start. I'd probably think differently for other roles.
mystic hull
How do you nicely ask a recruiter to not share your resume/cv until you agree to the job?
or does it work the other way around? 🤔
gentle chasm
keep in mind that companies with "unpaid interships" are often simply bad studios
- Not good enough to produce quality games and earn on it
- Or simply believing they can achieve more by paying people less - I know studios relying on juniors, not paying much more for experienced people, so experienced people go way and studio is hiring other students/juniors. And such studio isn't a best place to learn for newcomers.
- If they don't pay for intership, they probably have zero interest in teaching/guiding. They just expect naive people to do the simple/boring job. And such should be solves by working on tools and workflows, not unpaid intership 😉
@marsh stream
remote work could be nice if you just want somebody to pay while you learn basic shit - modelling and stuff, expect working long hours, but at least someone would start paying you, that's good thing 😉
but that would work more likely with outsource outlets (aka asset shops) than traditional studio
marsh stream
@tidal moth @gentle chasm @digital gate Thanks for all the info and advice . I do appreciate the constant feedback, info and opinions on such topics.
After reading back what I wrote, I am sorry if I came across as idk ungrateful/entitled. As some of you have seen me whine a fair bit about the industry. So I'll try to keep it down and focus more on the work 👍
gentle chasm
I don't see anything ungrateful here 😛
digital gate
Cranz I do think it's related to a career 🤔
tidal moth
@gentle chasm unpaid internships as part of schooling is not uncommon
not every country has it granted, but it is possible to have a country that allows for particulars like this
I know the UK does
@digital gate it was in response to what dark et al were posting
gentle chasm
maybe it's a language/country thing, in Poland we have "praktyki" - max few weeks and actually enforced by univs, often unpaid (you need to have such short training somewhere every year, but usually paper confirming it is... a fake)
and regular interships, usually 3 months - not sure if unpaid intership is legal here, although some companies don't care about law, I guess 😄
tidal moth
all I'm saying is that it's probably worth it to investigate the ramifications of a country before painting with a broad brush. I don't condone unpaid work myself, but I do consider the fact that it is offered as part of the way a country does things in regards to education as a fair offering
gentle chasm
although nobody here in gamedev bothers with 3 weeks "praktyki" anyway, dude would manage to download repo, click few things and he's gone already 😄
sure, man, often still better than just "working for yourself" with a little chance for criticism/feedback 🙂
fickle hatch
@gentle chasm the "praktyki" stuff isn't comparable to an internship, at least for most people around me the goal with that kinda thing was to get through these few weeks without breaking anything and while making friends
But not doing any actual work
flat gazelle
I sometimes wonder if it's the same people that run this same discussion, or if it's new people each time. Can I be the "ALL Internhips are bad because I don't know how to handle them" guy next time?
hybrid phoenix
No, you don't get to be that guy
You have to keep being that annoying reasonable voice in the corner telling people internships are a large cost for companies and are generally not done that lightly unless the company has hiring capacity
We'll then continue to largely ignore you
flat gazelle
Can I be the "How do I start freelancing?! I opened Maya once" guy then?
hybrid phoenix
Hi Glad! We're very happy to have received your query! We'll get back to you as soon as we can. Visit #more-resources for any questions you may have until then!
flat gazelle
The bot won't let me post... I'm looking for someone to build a game for me. Just a teeny tiny MMO like World of Warcraft, but with better graphics and gameplay.
Thanks though!
hybrid phoenix
Aaanyway
mystic hull
The bot won't let me post... I'm looking for someone to build a game for me. Just a teeny tiny MMO like World of Warcraft, but with better graphics and gameplay.
@flat gazelle This spoke to me on a spiritual level
hashtag feelsbadman
tribal minnow
is being a gamedev risky? what happens to unsuccesful gamedevs? how much money an average gamedev earns? im young and want to be a gamedev but im so worried about my future.
digital gate
It is a tumultuous industry, and at least if you go into programming, banking or something else is a much safer bet.
Life is risk though, and gamedev seems to be working out okay for me so I say chase your dream. Unsuccessful devs find unrelated work, but so do people who never make a foothold in their respective industries.
As for income level? Experience and studio size are the primary drivers of that within a given discipline.
tribal minnow
thanks for the answer
spice dagger
If your concerned about security, learn a trade, whilst on the side you can hone your skills as a GameDev gradually.
Once your comfortable with your abilities and job security, push harder into game dev as a career path.
west sonnet
No job security, no benefits (unless it’s a mega studio), pay is comparatively very low for the technical skillset required, degrees are worthless for the industry, very difficult to get your foot in the door, prepare to move a lot.
Yet one will love every moment of it if you’re insane enough to go down such a career path.
tribal minnow
guess ill have to do another job and make games as a hobby. but is it possible to make good games as a hobby?
tidal moth
it depends on what you quantify as a good game
have people made games as hobbies before that made it into something? yes
but whether those games are actually good is completely subjective
a lot of the now big studios out there started out in garages
although in today's economy when a garage is priced the same as a house was back then, perhaps it is a bit more difficult 🤔
spice dagger
@tribal minnow Minecraft was a hobby project...
fickle hatch
Minecraft also got lucky. It wasn't a systematic success at the time, though in retrospect you can pinpoint different elements that really brought it all together
If you stick to making games as a hobby, they will most likely stay on a hobby level, unless you get real lucky and hit just the right niche at the right time
Making hobby games for people who give good feedback on them is a great way to get skills - but while you'll inevitably want to dream about making something big, it's gonna be challenging at first to come to terms with what you can make using hobbyist resources I feel
tidal moth
I mean if success isn't a necessary criteria, it's fine to have it as a hobby
there's also cases of people getting picked up by studios purely because they showcased something interesting
I remember back when Little Big Planet came out a guy got hired by Media Molecule for the level he made and published online
while perhaps more involving, DayZ started as a mod as well before literally creating a genre that is thriving today
same thing with DOTA
and if we go further back, Counter Strike
fickle hatch
You can't get lucky and get big without actually trying
gentle chasm
I remember back when Little Big Planet came out a guy got hired by Media Molecule for the level he made and published online
@tidal moth
well, that's common for modders, especially level designers
I started with modding of Witcher 1, had no problems with getting job at the sequel - alhough they were looking only for cheap QA back then 😄
I remember getting salary similar to cashier 😛
tidal moth
uncommon or not, it's a possibility. I wouldn't bet the farm on it, but if nothing else it's a way to build portfolio pieces while potentially getting lucky
ugh don't remind me
tidal moth
oh lol
gentle chasm
and Portal started as student project, Valve loves to buy promising IPs
Left 4 Dead wasn't their idea also 😄
but these lazy asses are very rare exception 😛
tidal moth
a few people got picked up by valve by doing interesting stuff with their engine as well
like the guy who remade Dear Esther
or Someplace Else
to be fair those were during the golden age of Valve
gentle chasm
Campo Santos got picked up and ordered to work on Half Life game... meh... 😛
tidal moth
nowadays they seem much more distant towards the industry than before
I don't think it's a bad call
I'm just particularly unhappy about them being so VR focused
I genuinely believe there is no future in VR as it is
gentle chasm
it's awful, Campo Santos was one of the most ambitious-fresh indies 😦
gentle chasm
and 1 of 3 teams that made beautiful game on Unity 😄
2nd team already moved to Unreal
only Limbo team left
tidal moth
which was the 2nd team?
gentle chasm
except card games... Gwent and this Blizzard's card game... the biggest projects on Unity AFAIK
Bloober Team with Layers of Fear
tidal moth
ah yeah
I still think they can do great things enabled by Valve
well if they can find the motivation
gentle chasm
they probably did as part of Alyx team 😛
tidal moth
then I suppose I need to play it... once it comes out for non VR platforms 😭
leaden harness
Lol never
violet brook
Hello! I'm currently interviewing for an associate producer position at a company that makes MMORPGs. I've managed to make it to the second stage which consists of completing a production assignemt. It consists of three parts (planning, development, and pre-release). I'm pretty confident on the first two but I'm unsure on how to find resources for the pre-release. Can anyone offer guidance?
sudden island
@violet brook Think about what a producer would need to have done pre-release.
marsh stream
when u write something in #career-chat @west sonnet, its sad. But i guess its reality 🤷
vocal meadow
How come?
marsh stream
idk perhaps im generalising but Tide mentions a lot of the reality of game dev like ,no job security, no benefits , lowish pay, etc . i know its relevant to career chat ofc
but i guess im quite worried about my career wanting to do as well as my parents if not better[in regards to providing for family], so reading that doesnt make me feel great 😅 but again its the reality so i shrug and hope that everything works out.
west sonnet
It is reality yes. But it also speaks to what one values out of a career. Game dev isn’t for those who seek to accumulate enormous material wealth and security. Exceptions exist of course.
vocal meadow
Agreed, it’s a hard thing to do for a living. Couldn’t see myself doing anything but game dev though. So if reaction is from a gut feeling that you have to give up developing games for career your likely gonna keep at it regardless of day job.
lucid dragon
Hey all, so would love some opinions on this from you guys! I've recently been looking for a job and with Covid-19 it's making it a little rocky. Anyways, I'm mostly experienced in production, however I was having little luck at this time and took a stab at Dev QA, I got an interview and half way through the interview they said it wasn't for Dev QA it was for Compliance, so I was essentially interviewing for something I didn't want. Anyway, I've now been offered the position of Complianc but on the fence in taking it. Reasons for this is cause I don't see myself there that long, it wasn't the position I applied for and overall the studio hasn't seem to be clear on much for me. However at the same time, am I okay to be this picky especially with the current world situation? What's your thoughts?
hybrid phoenix
am I okay to be this picky especially with the current world situation
My thoughts on this are that it's one of the best moments to get the ball rolling with recruiters and such, because you'll be high on their list when things do pick up again
If you want a job soon, then you probably can't get picky
If you're willing to wait it out for a while, you can probably afford to be picky
(This is all assuming you do indeed have the credentials you'd need to get a job)
And personally, I'd really never take a job in the industry if it's not what I'd want. This industry doesn't pay well enough for that
If you're having to do something you don't want to be doing anyway, I'd look outside of the industry and find something that pays better 😛
lucid dragon
Hey @hybrid phoenix thanks for your reply! Yeah I've been applying not stop lately and there are a few roles I'm waiting to hear back from that I'd jump for joy if I got an interview for etc but with this one I didn't seem to have that feeling. I left my last studio a month ago (good thing too cause they were getting rid of people due to the virus etc) so I'm still okay to hold out. However, it's typical that I've been offered a role I didn't necessarily want. I love the industry so defo want to be involved as much as possible. You make a good point that the industry doesn't pay well enough to do things you don't want, and in fact they have offered me a salary that is lower than my minimum. It's just an odd ball to be in cause what if I turn down something I may have turnt out to enjoy and so on
hybrid phoenix
Well, you're the only one who can judge whether you might enjoy it, but personally, compliance... Ehh.....
lucid dragon
True dat!
hybrid phoenix
If you're having trouble with getting to interviews it might help to sit down with a specialized recruiter
They can get you to the relevant people without having to go through initial filtering, and they can also give you proper feedback on your CV, portfolio and your chances overall
lucid dragon
That is a shout, I haven't been with a recruiter just get cause I do see a lot of studios reject recruiters but like you said previously this could be the best time
Yet**
tidal moth
It is reality yes. But it also speaks to what one values out of a career. Game dev isn’t for those who seek to accumulate enormous material wealth and security. Exceptions exist of course.
cough mobile games cough
hybrid phoenix
I do see a lot of studios reject recruiters
I suspect that has to do with the recruiters
There's the useless recruiters that just forward your CV to every opening you can find
hybrid phoenix
And there's the great ones who actually sit down and work together with you to find something that'd work, and who know people
I'm currently in a process with one of the latter
vblanco, you're at PUBG Amsterdam, right?
honest cipher
quite great
honest cipher
back to spain to work on my own stuff
hybrid phoenix
Ah, cool
Mind if I PM you at some point with some questions if I do get to interviews?
honest cipher
ok
hybrid phoenix
Cool, thanks 🙂
marsh stream
A level design career question, Im very certain I havent asked this before. if I have my bad. I genuinley don't remember.
I wanted to ask for level design portfolio, is it better to
have designed levels in Unreal engine 4 /Unity
OR
have levels you designed in Mods/Level editors for games (CSGO/ARK Survival/etc)? A mix?
nova tartan
Good work is good work
But I imagine it shows better to display that you can work with the engine from scratch, and don't have to rely on someone else to implement modding tools
west sonnet
whiteboxing cough
tidal moth
as I've said before
do what you like
people like seeing things done in different engines as well as it shows technical proficiency, but remember that in any case gameplay and blockouts trump any level of art put on top of the level.
essential skills are separable into two categories:
- world: research, layout conceptualization and conformity, actual whiteboxing/blockouts and the ability to sell your design to the team/stakeholders
- mission: hooking into gameplay loops, pacing/progression, events scripting
I like to use the term full stack for level designers who can do both, since larger studios prefer to put emphasis on them as separate roles
(shamelessly stolen from programmer roles)
nova tartan
How does that fit in with the concept of making a level feel natural
Like "I'm in a world" rather than "I'm in a video game level"
Nioh 2 recently, despite having reasonable graphics etc
Still feels like I'm in a video game level
nova tartan
You don't really mention it in the essential skills, but I saw a bunch of people complain about nioh 2's level design because it didn't feel like you were in a natural world.
I dunno I haven't dived too deep into level design theory
tidal moth
generally that's conformity
understand what the world is and how the world behaves
and make your designs conform to that
it's one of my biggest pet peeves with games that make the game world feel like it always has eyes on the player rather than existing beyond the scope of the player
but it's not necessarily always the fault of the level designer, since the level designer in the end just brings all the work from other departments to life. it could well be that restrictions in the game design or budgets for AI/art that eventually causes the level design to appear worse off. level designers are absolutely not blameless in this scenario, but often it's a combination of deeper developmental issues that come to light in the level design. symptoms vs cause.
gentle chasm
idk perhaps im generalising but Tide mentions a lot of the reality of game dev like ,no job security, no benefits , lowish pay, etc . i know its relevant to career chat ofc
@marsh stream
that depends... well, programmer would earn less on average than in banking or artist could get more while working on commercials - but if you assume you have only 1 life and wants more from it than just money...
it also depends on country - any experienced dev in Poland earns at least twice the median salary here
junior programmer in bank actually starts from that, up to 5 times regular pay - and that's less in gamedev but still lives like a king 😉
and that's one of the reasons I actually didn't move out to Western countries, although I'd love live somewhere else for few years
but then I heard devs from Guerilla complaining that they have to share apartment in Amsterdam or live in another city (which isn't that bad given Dutch transport and that Amsterdam is super-crowded)
job security - every guy that know his shit he's guaranteed to find a job, people from closed studios usually get a new job/offers before "shutdown news" becomes official
What benefits you mean? One thing not common in Poland yet is to have "regular contract" - paying up retire fund, public healthcare and perks. But you can pay it yourself and every company respect "gentleman deal" on paid days off, 20-26 days a year
the only issue with that could be if you have a serious illness or getting pregnant - your company isn't obliged by law to support you 😉
nova tartan
In north america afaik most software developers are paid very well, with good health benefits, but little to no retirement benefits
marsh stream
@nova tartan thanks for the info
@tidal moth I understand you say do what you like. I wanted to ask in a scenario where I liked both equally. What is better to have on a portfolio. But I get it. The essential skills being separable into 2 categories was great to know. so ty for that
@gentle chasm thats good to know! I guess it depends on the country/position/world crisis at hand : P
gentle chasm
yeah, I heard companies like Google is a good deal because you got more paid days off than 10... crazy country
nova tartan
Canada gets good vacation time
tidal moth
@marsh stream if you know which studios you want to apply to and know one of them prefers unity over unreal or vice versa, it could pay off showing that you have created levels in either of those before
nova tartan
but yeah I make really excellent salary, enough to own my own house etc
but retirement savings is entirely up to me being disciplined
which is not a huge deal considering I can max out contributions, but it's certainly not a benefit
tidal moth
but even so having something like a level made out in each will show that you're adaptive enough to do either
but in either case I think you're spending a lot of time theorycrafting with these questions. getting down to brass tacks, doing work and showing it off will absolutely give you the best benefits
engine is secondary if you show good work
or tertiary
marsh stream
yep ur absolutely right . : / its me thinking ' i have to find out the best way to go about it before i start really digging deep'
but really its probs just fear / procrastination
yeh thats a great point. I wish target the companies that create my fav games...see their requirements/preferences .
gentle chasm
except Unity sucks when it comes to level design workflows (except ProBuilder) and easy of use - so this engine could eventually slow newbie level designer down
tidal moth
I'd recommend doing stuff in max or maya and import it
it sucks for LD workflows for sure but it's also an opportunity to take that on as a challenge
how do you overcome bad workflows in place by engine limitations?
I'd love to see any budding designer tackle challenges like that
vocal meadow
Unity is literally a nonstop development loop. Easy to learn because it is shallow and lacks anything requiring some confidence in the users of it. It’s a thing where they sell to devs and only devs.
But yeah, apply everywhere if you are looking for work. Too many will wait to look for work until their mmorpgfps is done for their portfolio.
ivory kernel
"Unity makes projects easy to start, but impossible to finish" --overseen in this channel a few weeks ago
bronze dew
poor unity....
lucid gale
I'm currently moving away from making and releasing game on my own, to paying freelancers for certain tasks.
Two of those tasks will be:
- Sound effect creation
- Background Music track composing
If you happen to be a freelance sound effect creator, or music composer. Could you please tell me how much you charge per cusom sound effect and / or per music track?
If you ever paid someone for this, I'd also be interested in hearing, what you paid?
I realize that some effects take longer to do than others, but just the average price for the most common game effects like fighting etc. would be perfect. 😃
I desperately need this info for a budget calculation, but it's not exactly something you can just google reliable results for...
vocal meadow
I've paid for such things before. Don't believe there is a number I could give you that every composer is going to take but when you talk with them about pricing a conversation of the rights / usage of the music will likely be involved. Sometimes the artist will be interested in managing the soundtrack themselves or even resell the track to other people making games in exchange for a lower rate.
You'll likely end up paying on a per minute basis for music tracks. Its gonna be something you figure out with the composer though. could be lower than 200 per minute or greater than 800 per minute. All depends on what you're looking for with rights and selection of composer
lucid gale
Thanks for the info. I'll calculate with 200$ per minute for now then.
Assuming that's the medium - slightly lower end price range. I find that if you are willing to sift through a lot of job applications, you can usually find good quality in that range. 😃
west sonnet
I would personally buy from a foley library than get a freelancer to make them. Unless you meant an audio programmer?
lucid gale
No, I'm the programmer of the team myself. 😄
However I want to stay clear of "asset flip" accusations, so I want to use as few stock assets as possible.
Obviously, I will use a few stock audio assets here and there though for less common interactions. 😉
bronze dew
honestly... don't worry about asset flip BS.... create your game your way.... use your skills where it matters... ppl who whinge about this... are most likely not the people paying for your game...
vocal meadow
having all custom assets for the sole reason of not being an asset flip is kinda a lame way to put something awesome lol
Assume/hope that the idea is more than sustaining a reputation of not buying ready made assets
fickle hatch
"I want the game to look at feel unique through use of custom assets made in the same style and with a specific workflow" is a better reason
vale belfry
Unity is literally a nonstop development loop. Easy to learn because it is shallow and lacks anything requiring some confidence in the users of it. It’s a thing where they sell to devs and only devs.
😱 cries in corner as the only thing i ever learned properly was unity
vocal meadow
I used it for 8 years, and it took m a bit to come to the realization of how poorly it sets you up for success. Hope I didn’t offend with that statement, but they just don’t fix things with anything that isn’t easy to explain
Cursor lock and hide used to be two booleans then they’d have a function to swallow input. No explanation of how to use these things together, but all very easy to explain on their own. Yet any game with an inventory in it likely has the same code reworked to not shoot a gun when you close the inventory with a click.
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, that's my experience with Unity as well
Works great at a superficial level
But the deeper you go the more prominent a lot of design idiocies become
steel creek
10 years unity, my experience isnt the same. Unity has done/can do anything I have thrown at it, given whatever level of polish you are ok stopping.
Tools are tools. Our anecdotal experience with them doesnt make them more or less than what they are: tools.
vale belfry
@vocal meadow No you didn't offend me :c, just I don't have enough experience with the engine myself but something felt right in that statement. Well, at least I have time to change, I'm still an undergrad 😄
west sonnet
Exactly. Don’t use broken, poorly designed, and/or extortionist tools.
hybrid phoenix
People are absolutely entitled to their own opinions on stuff like this - it very much depends what you've done with it and what those experiences were like. Unity definitely has a place, and it can be great, but for the things I've tried to do it's always caused me significantly more pain than UE4 has
tidal moth
I mean when in a commercial environment it's great to see the best tools prevail, but as Joviex said, tools are tools. not everyone gets to choose, and sometimes you have to make do with what you have... as infuriating as it can be
hybrid phoenix
Definitely
Heck, I've used CryEngine, and while I'd never use it for production (at least not the version I worked with), I can definitely see why it was being used for certain things
Same applies for Unity. There's many cases where I'll still recommend Unity over UE4, but well... My own are generally not those cases, and I thankfully get to choose
plucky hatch
hey devs!
this question gives a serious head ache! can I get a game developer job in big AAA companies like EA, Ubisoft etc with economics degree(not CS degree) ? As a programmer ?
pastel estuary
depends on your skill
mystic hull
You could get a job without a degree at all
mystic hull
Proven: read as you either have released titles, or legit previous jobs - purely from my experience
That can work too 😛
I got to the interview stage in a couple big companies
but i failed every one of them 😅
plucky hatch
I have ability for performent code and making a game engine
mystic hull
Go apply tbh, that's probably the only way you'll find out
plucky hatch
but I have economics degree
mystic hull
Degree doesn't matter
silk summit
That won’t matter that much
mystic hull
I've learned a lot from being rejected tbh
silk summit
As long as you have a degree in general and the knowledge for the position
plucky hatch
another question
the companies wants few years of professional experience on the specific stuff.
what does it means? where do I get this experience? with portfoilo?
mystic hull
You get it by working
From my experience, they won't aknowledge hobby/personal experience much
they mostly care about paid experience; things you did and got paid for
There are quite a few high ranks in here though, might want to wait for their answers as well
plucky hatch
even freelancing?
hybrid phoenix
@plucky hatch I've got an interview lined up at PUBG, I don't have a degree
plucky hatch
whoa ).o
hybrid phoenix
Your skills and portfolio speak louder than pieces of paper
west sonnet
Congrats!
plucky hatch
you mean bluehole?
mystic hull
Congrats my dooooood!
hybrid phoenix
That said, if you're missing the paperwork, I recommend working with a recruiter to get interviews
plucky hatch
wow congrats
hybrid phoenix
Too soon for congratulations, I'm not hired yet 😛
mystic hull
Halfway there! 😄
plucky hatch
yo mean a portfoilo?
hybrid phoenix
Sent in ten applications Thursday, got three "we'd like to talk" responses, haven't heard back from the rest yet
west sonnet
Getting an interview is just as tough
mystic hull
^
west sonnet
So congrats are in order
hybrid phoenix
By "the paperwork" I mean degrees and such
plucky hatch
but my main focus on making my own indie studio
hybrid phoenix
Yeah so far the ratio of 3/3 positive is better than I was expecting to get
Ah, well then you shouldn't worry about your degree at all!
plucky hatch
but problem is financial
mystic hull
Going indie is tough
plucky hatch
yes
mystic hull
Don't do indie without a job
hybrid phoenix
And for the record, no, I mean PUBG Corp. That's a thing now, apparently
They work on PUBG 😛
plucky hatch
thats the point
hybrid phoenix
Think they're a subsidiary of bluehole
tidal moth
bluehole is a terrible company name
hybrid phoenix
Either way the point of the example was just that; it's an example
plucky hatch
sounds not so good
hybrid phoenix
Demonstrated skills > Certifications in this industry
tidal moth
absolutely
plucky hatch
thx for clearing my conclution
plucky hatch
now I have confidence
hybrid phoenix
I've got gamedev experience, been doing it for years
But no large productions, and none of my projects have released
So I'm pretty much your worst-case scenario in terms of CV
But my Portfolio makes up for it
tidal moth
large production isn't different from small production, it's still divided into units
the main difference is experience working within a team
hybrid phoenix
Tell the HR peeps looking for released AAA titles
tidal moth
versus technical ability
plucky hatch
I really want to go indie
tidal moth
everyone does
plucky hatch
but moni is the issue
hybrid phoenix
Do indie on the side first
hybrid phoenix
^
tidal moth
ezpz
tidal moth
so why not do it
hybrid phoenix
Keep your losses affordable and your risk low
plucky hatch
I like game dev more somehow
tidal moth
I promise you working for big AAA companies is not glamourous at all
plucky hatch
IK
hybrid phoenix
^
plucky hatch
going indie with small team
tidal moth
going indie is a lot more work than just "oh hey let me do my own project"
you have to manage your business
and if you employ people, you have to manage them too
your job role doesn't start with developer, your job role starts with CEO
plucky hatch
if I have good amount of investors then should I go indie?
west sonnet
A business with low chance of success to boot
tidal moth
lol forget investors
tidal moth
that's like 50 steps too far along in the thinking process
plucky hatch
I got offered three times XD
tidal moth
offered what
hybrid phoenix
We were able to start talking to investors about a year into our last production
tidal moth
do you have a game
hybrid phoenix
(As in, start talking and have them take us seriously)
tidal moth
did you pitch the game
plucky hatch
they just saw my game posts
I make small projects on all majors engines
unreal,unity,cryengine(not that much)
hybrid phoenix
Wellp, if you think you've got the abilities to finish a game and you have investors willing to put their money on the line, you can go for it
But I have doubts about how much money said investors will want to line up
tidal moth
entering into a relationship with investors is its own can of litigation worms
hybrid phoenix
I very much doubt it'll be enough
tidal moth
you can do whatever you want
plucky hatch
and If i prove my skills then I will get the job?
tidal moth
it's not guaranteed
west sonnet
I thought you wanted to start your own business
plucky hatch
even I prove the skills they wanted?
tidal moth
it's not even guaranteed you get picked out from the literal 1000s of applications
that game developers get each day
you're in a very competitive market
plucky hatch
so cs degree dudes has more potential?
tidal moth
if someone has a CS degree they'll likely get picked out before you
this is true especially for programmers
for other disciplines it matters less
plucky hatch
damn thats sad
west sonnet
Please refer to MrGoosy’s example
tidal moth
it doesn't mean you don't have a chance
it means that if you are compared to someone who has your skills but also a degree
hybrid phoenix
As the recruiter I work with pointed out
tidal moth
they will pick that person over you
plucky hatch
it gets more complicated
tidal moth
and if you're living in a country where game dev studios aren't available
hybrid phoenix
"Your portfolio will need to be better than anyone else's because you're missing production experience and a degree, but your portfolio's good, so you'll stand a chance"
tidal moth
that's another factor that will make the hiring process more difficult
plucky hatch
so economics degree useless -_-
tidal moth
become an economist
hybrid phoenix
^
tidal moth
earn tons of money
plucky hatch
bruh
plucky hatch
I dont care about money that much
hybrid phoenix
Neither do I, but you need it to run a studio
tidal moth
that's a very strange statement coming from someone with an economy degree
hybrid phoenix
Lol
plucky hatch
XD
tidal moth
but yes what @hybrid phoenix said
plucky hatch
?
gentle chasm
about this "degree" thing
- In my current company we got 7 programmers, including me as technical designer - slash - programmer
- Yeah, there's a programmer after uni, one of best in his year, but done some mini-engine thing in past
- and there's young 20 years old guy who is just passionate and already knows C++
generally, it's not your issue what they really require
west sonnet
Tldr: You can’t run a studio on hopes and dreams
tidal moth
@gentle chasm be careful painting with a broad brush, some companies have leads that absolutely require it, some will prefer it etc.
gentle chasm
if you already done your game engine, and this is not shitty code - they gonna probably ask for some code pieces - go for it
hybrid phoenix
Definitely depends on the people in charge of hiring
gentle chasm
@tidal moth sure, but he'll never know it if he not gonna apply 😉
hybrid phoenix
But it's often more flexible than they'll say it is
tidal moth
it's not an absolute qualifier, but I know people value it
plucky hatch
so If i run a studio with some peoples and a good job in other section
plucky hatch
damn doesn't makes sense
gentle chasm
I know many countries love these degrees, some less
it's just difficult to say what they really want - as they often really don't know
plucky hatch
anyone can learn cs at his own
tidal moth
sure programming is fairly easy to get started with
but understanding stuff like system architecture and how to avoid technical debt
that's much harder
plucky hatch
I mean algortihms and data structure can learn by own
tidal moth
I personally would prefer hiring designers that have some sort of programming education as you often get very methodical approaches from them... but that's just me
plucky hatch
so the degree so effective in this field?
hybrid phoenix
You really need to figure out what the goal is here
west sonnet
Please refer to MrGoosey’s example
tidal moth
lol
gentle chasm
and these "few years of experience" required is usually kind of "wishlist item" - every company would likely to hire only seniors, with experience on published games
but... most companies (if any!) can get enough seniors in time, so they would still hire less experienced or rookies
hybrid phoenix
Because I know very few industry workers who work their ass off on indie productions on the side
Because you'd be doing the same thing literally every waking hour
tidal moth
just @ me next time Goosey
hybrid phoenix
@tidal moth Sure, but uh, next time? What was the last time?
I'm missing the context for that message
gentle chasm
@plucky hatch
unless you apply to be core/rendering engineer for long-term engine development (Unreal, Frostbite) or crucial gameplay guy (because they need someone good to start entire RPG development) - just go for it ;)
I got jobs in companies that didn't even post offer for my role 😉
hybrid phoenix
My conclusion:
west sonnet
tidal moth
yeah generally you'll start with a junior role anyway
hybrid phoenix
If you want to do indie-dev, getting into the AAA industry really doesn't look like a good plan of attack to me. Do AAA if you want to work in the AAA industry. Period.
If you've got the skills and money to go indie-dev now, and that's what you want, go for it. If not, do it on the side while doing something else to make money
gentle chasm
about "going indie without prior industry experience" - I would never recommend it
yes, it could work, but it's extreme risk
you gonna pay for all your lack of experience and mistakes
tidal moth
but if he's an economist with big monae risk doesn't matter!!!1
hybrid phoenix
I wouldn't recommend becoming studio lead when you've had three years as junior programmereither
I'd definitely recommend getting industry experience of some sort
tidal moth
you shouldn't be a junior for 3 years either
gentle chasm
@hybrid phoenix I'd say otherwise
working a year upon AAA title would be priceless for indie developer without proper experience
tidal moth
that would imply something is wrong
hybrid phoenix
I'm just not sure if I'd recommend AAA for that purpose
I suppose it depends on the person
If I'd have started in AAA I'd have burned out on gamedev, I'm quite sure
tidal moth
well sure any experience is better than none, but you're not necessarily going to get a good enough impression of how all the cogs work in a company just after one year
hybrid phoenix
The reason I wouldn't recommend AAA as starting point for starting your own studio is because you won't see the entire production-line come together outside of your role
gentle chasm
it's more like: what exactly want to learn?
if you want to learn Unreal C++ and best practices - go somewhere where you gonna have time to learn, companies they have to time to work on tools, promote good practices, hire good programmers - not just cheapest juniors all the time 😉
@hybrid phoenix again, it depends 😉
as Quest Designer for AAA RPG title, I learn a lot
it's like guy connecting everything into game 😉
maybe nowadays starting with AAA tech isn't tech important however... as we UE4 now 🙂
tidal moth
yeah but it may not be the same experience for every role, or indeed be the same across every company
hybrid phoenix
Sure, that's a role where I can see it
Same for design or QA to some extent
But as a gameplay programmer...? Really not sure if that's very useful
west sonnet
Please tell me you’ve made a toilet paper fetch quest.
gentle chasm
although I see that people starting gamedev from Unity are in serious disadvantage if they didn't work previously with Unreal or another in-house/AAA tech - they just don't know what this engine is lacking 😄
Please tell me you’ve made a toilet paper fetch quest.
@west sonnet
nope... but maybe they just adding easter egg to CP2077 😄 😛
But as a gameplay programmer...? Really not sure if that's very useful
@hybrid phoenix
oh, it's super-useful
it's not like you can throw blueprints at designers and you gonna have nicely developed game 😄
vocal meadow
Job titles are usually misleading
west sonnet
That’s a very yes maybe 😜
gentle chasm
gameplay often needs custom tools and smart workflows to actually be able create designed game 😉
tidal moth
@gentle chasm I think the point was that it's not going to instill you with good business sense for creating an indie company
not whether or not you learn how to do best practices for programming etc.
gentle chasm
oh...
hybrid phoenix
So if that's the only experience you've got as developer...
tidal moth
it may be, but it is always going to be a secondary qualifier
gentle chasm
you have to be good at something, that's just my opinion
gentle chasm
if you're running the production, you need to feel how this production works
gentle chasm
people with no gamedev experience are the worst bosses in gamedev
hybrid phoenix
Which programming experience won't be all that valuable to, because you still have no idea about the other parts of a production and how it all clicks together
tidal moth
or even designer
gentle chasm
yeah, I agree with that
tidal moth
excellent
gentle chasm
if somebody get good indie studio nearby, go there
tidal moth
we all agree then
hybrid phoenix
I was about to say, I think we're all more or less in agreement, we just formulate it differently
gentle chasm
I was just arguing with statement "don't go AAA, if you want be indie, waste of time" 😛
hybrid phoenix
Ah yeah
gentle chasm
because most of indie studios simply do things wrong way
since established by people who don't know and never learned they craft 😛
hybrid phoenix
My point with that was more "there's better ideas than to go be a AAA programmer for a little while if you want to run a studio"
gentle chasm
governed by the random decisions 😛
vocal meadow
For real though, even if your publishing independently don’t make the mistake of putting yourself into the indie category.
Programmers trying to start studios make this mistake all day long
west sonnet
The collective have decided. Go hug you lot 😜
hybrid phoenix
@vocal meadow What defines as indie by your standards?
vocal meadow
Prefer not doing it alone but yeah even AAA is a thrown around turn just to divide and affect pricing
I tend to consider how the audience interprets the term
gentle chasm
My point with that was more "there's better ideas than to go be a AAA programmer for a little while if you want to run a studio"
@hybrid phoenix
but also... you can see how expensive/complex is to make ideas happen
meet many people that you could start your indie company with - if you gonna be solo-founder, even finding the first artist could be very risky and time-consuming
hybrid phoenix
Ah your line of thought is that it's a stupid division to maintain, pat
vocal meadow
Which is bargain gaming at half price under veil of Microsoft store or whatever
hybrid phoenix
@gentle chasm Definitely true, not gonna debate the value in any of that
tidal moth
but yeah, nothing will prepare you for being a good studio founder other than perhaps an MBA
hybrid phoenix
That won't either 😛
gentle chasm
@hybrid phoenix generally... discussion "what would be a better start" could end up as nice diagram like this "what role in gamedev you fit" - it was popular recently 😄
vocal meadow
I’m saying it’s a term that means different things to people and it’s no mistake that the big companies and publishers prefer that this division is exists. It’s the only way they can keep charging 60 bucks while you get looks from people for anything over 5 dollars on the App Store
tidal moth
is there a flowchart
hybrid phoenix
I'd say working at an indie studio founded by industry vets would be awesome
If you're looking to start your own studio
gentle chasm
vocal meadow
Just make good games. Putting your work into indie category just means shutting yourself out of opetunites
tidal moth
I think there's a distinction of what AAA means to game devs versus what AAA means to consumers Pat
hybrid phoenix
I'll look at that when I'm at my pc
vocal meadow
That’s not on mistake tho cranz
Your the affordable deal for that gaming console. Gaming console appreciates your contribution but separates your margins as such
gentle chasm
I'd say working at an indie studio founded by industry vets would be awesome
@hybrid phoenix
yes, that's how lot of most ambitious/popular indie studios started - at least those making "AAA indies" or AA games 😛
that's my area of focus, anyway 😛
hybrid phoenix
I'm uh
Looking at Lo-Fi Games
I'm really not sure where that goes
I suspect it's very much indie
Not AA
tidal moth
AA is like high quality indies
gentle chasm
- guys who developed Firewatch on Unity knew perfectly what they were doing thanks to prior AAA experience, so they exactly what they need in Unity (like streaming solution)
- obviously there are guys behind Stardew Valley who don't care about anything we said above and - rarely - but they hit jackpot
hybrid phoenix
I think Lo-Fi is in that stardew category
I'd actually like to have some opinions on that
I'm thinking I might really love working at Lo-Fi because they work on my kind of games and they're indie
hybrid phoenix
But at the same time, I'm trying to get proper production experience, and they're... Well... Indie
So I'm doubtful about whether they'll solve my lack-of-credentials problem
They made Kenshi
gentle chasm
AA is a good space to be in
@tidal moth
exactly, the best one
- you're still working on quality and trying to win people with polished experience
- but you're not a tiny hog in big machine
- and not working on "yet another pixel" game which is extremely difficult to sell because there are thousands games like this
hybrid phoenix
As far as I can see the sequel is intended to just be a hell of a lot more polished, so they're moving to UE4, and looking for a Tech Artist
But I'm really not sure if it'd wise to work there over i.e. PUBG if keeping an eye on the horizon
hybrid phoenix
Kenshi 1 is rather horrendously polished, the pitch is awful
The game is surprisingly good
Other than its poor polish
I think the idea is for K2 to fix that
But uh... Yeah... CV and such
tidal moth
I'd very wary about joining a studio like that personally. whether the game is good or not is actually secondary to how it was developed
gentle chasm
well, it always good to have at least 1 globally recognized title/company in your history 😉
in PUBG team, you gonna learn a lot from them the first months
in Lo-fi, you gotta learn with them a lot, and it could take long time if they don't have senior artists already
hybrid phoenix
That's very much my concern
gentle chasm
but you would be more important part of Lo-fi than PUBG - from team/company perspective 😉
hybrid phoenix
I suspect I'll feel more comfortable at Lo-Fi and feel much more motivated
But long-term...
gentle chasm
and your "percentage" of ownership would be a way higher 😛
hybrid phoenix
I can also see myself getting very frustrated if the Lo-Fi team is actually highly incompetent
tidal moth
I can only speak from a design pov but it would seem like LoFi has very a divisive leadership based on what they are trying to develop
their ideas aren't unified, so I very much doubt their management is
hybrid phoenix
The idea sounds like a mess but it's impressively well-executed, aside from awful UX and glitchiness
gentle chasm
from my personal experience, it was always good to start high - from recognized AAA, and it's much easier to find job at good indie studios after that
or receive annoying job offers from China all the time 😄
hybrid phoenix
But I do share the concerns
tidal moth
@hybrid phoenix like I said, just because you perceive the game as good doesn't mean the production process is
hybrid phoenix
I'll also talk the situation over with my recruiter Monday, see what he thinks
tidal moth
LA Noire is a good example
development hell, but that's nothing you see in the final game
hybrid phoenix
@tidal moth Definitely, that's pretty much my concern
It's uh
A bit of dilemma to me 😛
I don't really have to worry about it yet, because obviously I might end up not really having a choice in studios
But the situation's very much gotten me thinking about what I should be prioritizing
tidal moth
I'd recommend PUBG as a first priority
west sonnet
Get some xp first
hybrid phoenix
I mean, it might get a heck of a lot more complex than just PUBG vs Lo-FI
Depending on how everything goes
tidal moth
of course, it's also down to other factors like salary and contract
hybrid phoenix
Definitely
I'll probably restart this discussion once I've got offers on the table
hybrid phoenix
Which will probably be a while
(sadly)
Really not enjoying the wait, because I don't really have anything to do anymore
tidal moth
put all that anxiety energy into making a new asset or shader or project
tidal moth
then procrastinate by helping other people with their problems 😅
hybrid phoenix
Doing a bit of freelance here and there, but that's mostly just frustrating because clients
pastel estuary
with all the bleep going on outside, I cant say I am all that motivated either hehe
hybrid phoenix
Yeah if all that bleep wasn't going on I'd be with my dad for a while helping him remodel his home and working in the yard, practicing blacksmithing and such
But that's not an option atm either 😛
Just stuck behind my computer, basically
And well
As Luos witnessed earlier today
I'm anxious noticeably enough to be somewhat of a dick to the people I'm hoping to help
pastel estuary
ive been there myself
so only trying to help you not become as grumpy as me
hehe
im getting better and better at just not giving ducks, and walking away
tidal moth
yea same
hybrid phoenix
I always forget I am 👀
pastel estuary
i know, which is why I let it at that and didnt (hopefully) make a big deal out of it
and, a lot of people are on edge
brittle cliff
anyone got any tips on how to start working for big companies? I dont got college diploma but i got alot of personal experience!
should i just say I have a degree in the field im going for?
vocal meadow
nope, just apply places
brittle cliff
ight but like most places need resumes and cover letters
and my resume is out of date as of 2018
vocal meadow
yep, put your experience in the resume. don't say you have a degree unless you do. Experience will likely out rank a degree
tidal moth
well then you've got your work cut out for you
personal experience isn't treated with the same respect as professional experience, mind you
brittle cliff
but isnt a degree a good plus to it
tidal moth
depends
brittle cliff
like for AAA studios for an example
tidal moth
what role are you wanting to apply for
vocal meadow
you don't have a degree though right?
brittle cliff
I dont @vocal meadow and im trying to go for just game developer
brittle cliff
well specifically software engineer!
tidal moth
I see
brittle cliff
like valve's "Game Development Software Engineer"
tidal moth
yeah just apply, but keep in mind that if you have no professional experience your chances are slim, especially without a degree. A degree isn't required, but it is a stamp of approval that e.g. HR and recruitment like to see
some team leads prefer programmers with degrees
but it varies
if you have good code samples though and understand system architecture and best practices you may be fine, but in the end visibility matters more initially than actual skill does
brittle cliff
gotcha! I know with like art designers or animators you need a representation of work of what you can do, but should I just collect all that I made and make like a all in one of what I can do?
tidal moth
yeah code samples I don't think you'll get around having
I've seen people ask for up to 2500 lines but idk really, it's not my department per se so I'll leave the specifics to people with the knowledge
vocal meadow
including code samples in a resume?
west sonnet
Bahaha
vocal meadow
I'd save that for an interview tbh
tidal moth
well I was thinking more of as part of a portfolio
west sonnet
I like to imagine a 20 page of 5px binary
tidal moth
since I've seen that as a requirement for programming applications
but again it's not my department
west sonnet
Oh better yet
vocal meadow
would prefer seeing more visual stuff in portfolio personally. I don't think HR is going to know what to do with the code samples
west sonnet
Hole punches to represent binary
tidal moth
HR doesn't care, but leads will
vocal meadow
"Hire this person! I've deciphered their message!"
west sonnet
Not going to go far if you cannot make a first impression
vocal meadow
Yeah, if they request it with application that'd make sense. but code is a pretty functional/literal thing. Would assume they'd prefer to ask you to do something and review your approach instead of favorite tidbits of code.
tidal moth
it's a test of tidiness I think, and how your stuff looks behind the scenes. even with bad code you can make something look good visually
but you can't hide behind visuals if you're sending in a text sample of your work
west sonnet
Visual first. Gross code later
You don’t want the hiring manager to dig through your stuff just to figure out what you’re showcasing
That’s a fast way of getting sent to a bin
west sonnet
Again
First impression
Lead will never see it if recruiters kills your application
tidal moth
the recruiters are much less prone to killing a programmer application than an art application
besides there's actually technical recruiters out there for this particular reason
vocal meadow
Offering someone just some random bits of code to read is really going to put you into a lot of unnecessary judgement. Would personally avoid issuing any single piece of code. reference projects you've worked one etc, thats good.
"He uses goto statement, poof"
west sonnet
All I’m saying. Have a pretty front and an ugly rear
tidal moth
consider the use of patterns, well documented code etc.
vocal meadow
Lead is unlikely going to be the one sifting through applicants though
tidal moth
lead will get a set of applicants with the best CVs likely and look through code samples
vocal meadow
I really would advise just awaiting being asked for code samples on the subjects the lead wants to see. Not a greatest hits
tidal moth
pretty much on par with what leads do for designers, but with portfolios
west sonnet
Leads want to work on the game
Less time wasted, the better
Don’t make it hard for people to view your work
They won’t give you the time of day
tidal moth
I wouldn't ask to send code samples willy nilly, but I've literally seen it on applications for programmers in the industry
so idk
having a website that perhaps discusses the code and how to solve problems etc. might be a good call
would avoid something that is overly visual without good descriptors purely because it will make it look like you've got something to hide
tidal moth
I'm just saying art application != code application
tidal moth
depends on what you refer to as detail
vocal meadow
Its usually an interview stage thing. The big companies may have three or more interviews with you before deciding jack.
Would just advise against including code samples in with portfolio because an opinionated programmer on good code can hurt you
tidal moth
isn't that just saying you're hiding your code to avoid scrutiny?
idk I'd prefer to be open about these things, but that's just me
west sonnet
First impression
vocal meadow
Wouldn't assume they want to see it again. Programming is like 30% written language and 70% problem solving.
tidal moth
true, but that also puts emphasis on those 30% need to be eloquently written
vocal meadow
A reel of projects you've worked on, videos of features these will go further than arbitrary unrequested written code sample
I would just assume thats an interview thing. They will likely give you a programming test, as an artist would receive an art test
tidal moth
well like I said, I only mentioned that I've seen it been requested
if unrequested I'd leave stuff open on a website, with descriptors
(not unlike a portfolio)
but maybe I am wrong about this
I can ask people at work about it though
gentle chasm
well, it was always nice to have bit of code ready on GitHub, especially if this a focused piece of code: plugin, thing solving specific problem, mini-game
if applying for junior position (as usual talk started from thread) I'd definitely appreciate this junior already managed to assemble some working module of code, put an effort, not just playing around with random stuff
even HR would be able to see "oh, this guy made this awkward looking but basically working RTS sample" 😉
maybe it's just me, but a guy without professional experience and not showing any sample? good for intership, to test him out and teach him basics, not junior position (that could be come after 3 months of intership showing potential)
flat gazelle
@vocal meadow and @west sonnet which systems are you using where the recruiter sees the application before the headcount owner?
At least in smartrecruiters everyone gets it simultaneously.
merry sequoia
how developed would be a good example of an RTS for jobs be?
Currently have construction, basic AI, economy and time, road building / navigation, a couple citizen societal classes,
Im starting to build the combat mode stuff atm, but all of it is blueprint. Haven’t converted anything to cpp yet
I’m aiming for tech artist I think, but wouldn’t mind programming or something similar to learn the technical side more in a structured environment etc
tidal moth
with tech art you'd really want more focus on art tools and pipeline improvements
but for programming you really need to know your stuff in cpp
it'd seem to me you're stuck in a limbo where neither is really applicable
so I'd advise to pick one path and stick to it
hybrid phoenix
If you want to do the technical side, do editor extensions and such
Tools that the art-team can use to make their life easier
Because that's something you might actually be doing as tech-artist
Potentially animation blueprints and such, depending on the place that'll be a TA job
It can't hurt to also have some gameplay stuff done, but I wouldn't worry about it too much
Everything being BP is mostly fine for TA, though you'll have a significant advantage if you can program in i.e. C#, Python or something else along those lines
merry sequoia
See the problem with that is I don’t have enough experience working in a studio to really have much idea with that. My job as an artist didn’t need much. I make characters and send them to others to do the technical. I’ve only recently decided to move on to the technical myself.
I’ve made a few tools like road creators / splines / some particles and such but most of what I’ve done is just related to the full game I’m working on to learn and improve.
I can program, pretty comfy with python, just haven’t used C++ in UE4 -yet-.
tidal moth
am I the only one thinking teaching assistant every time I see TA? 😄
merry sequoia
I did at first :p
hybrid phoenix
most of what I’ve done is just related to the full game I’m working on
merry sequoia
To learn
tidal moth
I'd advise you to get into cpp as soon as possible if you're aiming to down the programmer route
hybrid phoenix
Most of my portfolio consists of things I've done for a single project
tidal moth
there's no beating around the bush there, you absolutely need to know your stuff
hybrid phoenix
If you're going programming then you need to program, obviously
tidal moth
and cpp is a harsh mistress
hybrid phoenix
But for tech-art, it's a nice-to-have
Especially C++ is generally pretty low on the list as far as I can tell with my job-hunt so far
Great if you have it, but really, any kind of programming experience is good
Because C++ is largely someone else's job anyway
tidal moth
yeah for tech art you're more than likely going to be doing some basic scripting and a LOT of houdini
merry sequoia
I’m pretty experienced with python and have some C++ knowledge just haven’t used it for UE4 yet so not familiar with library.
Been learning Houdini. I feel I’m capable of taking on a junior tech art role I just don’t have the insight to know what tools they would like to see / having never been in a studio environment I don’t know what the other artists would need for their level design jobs etc
tidal moth
if you want something more along the lines of a BP job that's going more towards a design role, but again then you need to have a good design sense first. BP is just a tool for designers, not the be all end all
merry sequoia
The BP/CPP split doesn’t bother me one way or the other. BP is easier visually for me but I am not new to programming as a whole
tidal moth
real question: how would you manage technical debt?
hybrid phoenix
Question for Deadmon or in general?>
tidal moth
for ya boi
tidal moth
technical debt is the #1 project killer
hybrid phoenix
Technical debt is basically maintenance that needs to happen but isn't happening
mystic hull
Ah, copy
tidal moth
well it's not that simple
hybrid phoenix
I.e. Bethesda's projects STILL having the same physics problems that Morrowind did
(Just the simple explanation)
mystic hull
Na I got the idea, technical issues that are long overdue
tidal moth
it's not maintenance, it's lack of understanding that leads to code needing to be refactors due to its inefficiency or high coupling
tidal moth
at a later point
mystic hull
👌