That's my experience with small companies
#career-chat
nova tartan
vocal meadow
Oof watering plants
mystic hull
As a guy who wears almost exclusively all the hats possible, I can confirm 😄
In all honesty though, not the worst thing
merry sequoia
Getting paid to water indoor plants and take a break from code-headache? Im in!
mystic hull
you end up gaining a ton of experience on the thing you work on the most, but also know a bit of everything
gives you the valuable skill of being able to unfuck most situations
merry sequoia
plus you are proficient indoor gardener after its all said and done
mystic hull
Can't put a price on that! 😄
fickle hatch
Can confirm
Small company you do multiple things by necessity
My side jobs included office planning and other dumb stuff
west sonnet
Can confirm. I have no idea what I officially do anymore
bronze dew
yup... I also have no clue what I do now.... done everything from photogrammetry to webdesign to pipeline tool dev to modeling to virtual production and UI design... and that's just the past few years...
plucky hatch
Hey everyone!
I am looking to have a chat with a few individuals who regularly hire freelancers. Anyone would be open for a few minutes to answer some of my questions? Thank you! 🙂
valid lance
What do you want to know? @plucky hatch
west sonnet
Would be best to just ask your question instead of ask to ask @plucky hatch
mystic hull
Yes, so we can all (read: me) benefit 👀
plucky hatch
I am mostly trying to understand your pain points when it comes to hiring and working with freelancers ;)
And i have lot of questions!
And then based on your answers i may have more
Haha
west sonnet
Quite literally what this channel is for 😜
fickle hatch
Pain point no. 1: it's hard to understand the persons working ethic without investing some time into them before contracting them
Assuming the portfolio perfectly conveys their skill (which by itself is pain point no. 2), that doesn't say much about if they can stay in touch and do things timely etc
nova tartan
This is all layperson's thoughts on the matter, not someone experienced with freelance worker hiring, so feel free to ignore it if you want
1: Art style consistency
Games require an absolutely ridiculous amount of art assets, how can I ensure a consistent style if I use freelancers?
2: Multiple projects
I assume a freelancer will act in their own self interest, which means taking on as many profitable jobs as possible
What if the freelancer puts my commissions as a lower priority and starts blocking another person working on my game by being late?
3: Quality vs time
Your portfolio pieces were gorgeous hence being contacted in the first place, how do I know I'll get the quality I require in the timeframe I require? I assume people will lie to me to get the contract(again, self interest), but if the high quality portfolio pieces took a long time to create and I need stuff fast, I might end up not having what I need by deadlines
mystic hull
As someone who currently works as a contractor, I'd be interested knowing how to overcome these issues when presenting myself to a potential client 🤔
west sonnet
I find number 3 a big issue for both clients and freelancer. It takes time to make a quality asset that one see in a portfolio. I’ve came across many clients who wanted a game ready (sculpt, retopology, uv’d wrapped, full pbr textures, rigged, skinned, LOD’d) asset within 3 days. All for $50
fickle hatch
I overcome the stated issues by giving contractor an evaluation task first, contracting them for something relatively small and well defined in scope
Which is kind of a pain, but it puts me into contact with them for a longer time before I have to decide on the actual work that must be done
So I can talk to them and see if they have the traits I want
mystic hull
I find number 3 a big issue for both clients and freelancer. It takes time to make a quality asset that one see in a portfolio. I’ve came across many clients who wanted a game ready (sculpt, retopology, uv’d wrapped, full pbr textures, rigged, skinned, LOD’d) asset within 3 days. All for $50
@west sonnet Pretty much the majority of clients these days, sadly.
Been going for the longer-term projects
west sonnet
Send me your portfolio. I'll at least keep an eye out for you
😛
fickle hatch
I'd say the same, but I mostly end up hiring people from eastern europe because they are cheaper D:
I feel extremely uncomfortable with the idea of undercutting artists. Hiring people from USA is quite a strain for our basically non-existent budget 😦
mystic hull
Sure, I'm actually a dev tho, that still alright? 😅 @west sonnet
I actually wanted to ask, how/where do you get a dev's CV peer-reviewed, I have no family/friends who actually know anything about software .-.
None that I'd ask, at least 😅
west sonnet
Dev as opposed to what?
mystic hull
To an artist - in relation to my question, yeah?
west sonnet
Artists aren't devs? You wound me so 😛
mystic hull
Ay, shoulda said software engineer 🤔
I find the term triggers some given I have no certificate, though 😅
I need to learn how to use my keyboard jeez
nova tartan
I make the rock output the correct lights with lightning
mystic hull
That's an interesting way of describing your job o_o
tidal moth
an interesting exercise in how to word your job in your technical tasks
"I make documents that I hate to write and other people hate to read"
plucky hatch
@mystic hull you should not be concerned as much as you do possess the requisite skills and have a work ethic and motivation that would exceed most hirer's expectations. in your case it will be a matter of taking on small tasks until you are trusted with more. as far as hiring an unknown contractor for jobs that actually matter, you would be crazy to ever do that. prove your worth on small bs.
fickle hatch
"I tell people the first thing that comes to my mind and it somehow helps them every time" is half of my job description
mystic hull
"I tell people the first thing that comes to my mind and it somehow helps them every time" is half of my job description
@fickle hatch wish I could put that in my job description 🤣
plucky hatch
Pain point no. 1: it's hard to understand the persons working ethic without investing some time into them before contracting them
@fickle hatch how do you figure out their working ethic by just talking with them?
Are you in the need to just build relationship with them so you can gain trust?
Huh i feel like i started the fire here haha
This is all layperson's thoughts on the matter, not someone experienced with freelance worker hiring, so feel free to ignore it if you want
1: Art style consistency
Games require an absolutely ridiculous amount of art assets, how can I ensure a consistent style if I use freelancers?
2: Multiple projects
I assume a freelancer will act in their own self interest, which means taking on as many profitable jobs as possible
What if the freelancer puts my commissions as a lower priority and starts blocking another person working on my game by being late?
3: Quality vs time
Your portfolio pieces were gorgeous hence being contacted in the first place, how do I know I'll get the quality I require in the timeframe I require? I assume people will lie to me to get the contract(again, self interest), but if the high quality portfolio pieces took a long time to create and I need stuff fast, I might end up not having what I need by deadlines
@nova tartan N.1 you need a style guide document, and proper management process in place.
N.2 not sure i understand. Wheres the problem here?
N.3 Quality is always first. You can be late (hours) but not too late (days). If your freelancer can't estimate a project properly then he's no better than you doing the job in my experience (find someone else as he's no professional)
Also always plan for delays when working with people. There's always something that blocks finishing the work.
I find number 3 a big issue for both clients and freelancer. It takes time to make a quality asset that one see in a portfolio. I’ve came across many clients who wanted a game ready (sculpt, retopology, uv’d wrapped, full pbr textures, rigged, skinned, LOD’d) asset within 3 days. All for $50
@west sonnet 3 days work for $50? I pay my maid better than that!
manic vigil
Why would you pay your maid less than anyone else
plucky hatch
@plucky hatch you would be surprised how unclever people can be when trying to conceal their poor work ethic. most people forget to hide it and try to make jokes about it, thinking everyone has the same pent up disdain for being useful.
tidal moth
N.1 you need a style guide document, and proper management process in place.
to make a good style document you need an artist in the first place. this is bordering on circular logic in the realm of freelance gamedev
merry sequoia
Well it’s practice to have one staff art person at least for art direction right?
It seems like a bad idea to have a non artist try and coordinate freelancers and make sure they have matching art styles
tidal moth
@merry sequoia sure but that still requires trusting one artist to put down a proper style guide
the issue is you still have to hire a person to do this, and probably provide examples of this style guide as they do, so it's not exempt from the loop
merry sequoia
Gotcha
wispy spoke
Y'all have any tips on becoming a good programmer? I've been at this for a while, shipped some games, starting work on a big-ish indie project soon and sometimes I feel like I have no idea what I should learn... Anyone get into this existential train of thoughts sometimes?
vocal meadow
Completely normal, things start to blend into a daily grind of what collection type is suitable here etc
Try doing things you don’t think your able to do. Houdini is a cool thing to learn too
gentle chasm
@wispy spoke
- always try to learn more advanced/low-level stuff or things that would cleaner than existing "simplest" solutions, like using smart pointers, their new programming subsystems (immediately used to clean systems)
- learn writing editor tools if you didn't yet (including Slate) - property/details customizations are simple thing to start with, but make user's life much better sometimes
- think of longer term goals while starting work on new systems/tools - if your team and project design allows for it
- always evaluate your soft skills, communication with other people and you react on them
there's always something to improve here, and maybe some issues with other people to solve
but perhaps the most important
excellent programmer is not someone who just knows to write efficient C++ code
gameplay programmer should learn design things, understand how designers works, what are their needs, why they work this way not another
the same thing with artists/rendering/visuals and basically any other thing
one of the most annoying kind of programmer is guy who writes really good systems - but he never thinks on people using it, use cases, usability, UX
so he gives a tool which is super inconvenient to use
merry sequoia
If my background is art, as in I have worked as a freelance / commission / vendor artist for years and fairly confident in it but have grown to enjoy programming and am fairly decent at it, is there any position that fits that in the industry? Or am I going to have to pick a side basically
gentle chasm
@merry sequoia that sounds like good base to become a technical artist
even indie teams need guy who works closely with artists every day, doing tools for them, thinking of better workflows/pipelines
or simply guiding them through the complex tech like UE
as many artists don't care or aren't interested by making thing in proper way - they just want to do stuff
and complain about everything around if framerate goes shit 😄
merry sequoia
Having never worked in a studio, what tools would you be referring to? Workflow/pipeline/optimization I understand
gentle chasm
anything that people in team would be lacking - also in terms of skills
in some studios there's only one technical artist working on materials
or keeping eye on performance, memory, vertex count - general correctness of things
if you'd C++ and rendering, you're welcome to write shaders or modify engine's rendering a bit
also could prepare procedural tools in Houdini
merry sequoia
oh ok so materials, particles, procdedurals, and the more 'active' art stuff
gentle chasm
or custom editors for artists, i.e. Time Of Day editor
merry sequoia
I wasnt sure what 'doing tools for them'
gotcha that all makes sense
Interesting. Well at least I have a job title to shoot for beyond "I can make a game with enough time and do the art myself. Please hire"
tidal moth
tech art is an umbrella term
vocal meadow
Umbrella Ella ey?
tidal moth
you're essentially a stand in for a material artist, a tools programmer/designer and worst case, a 3d artist
stuck mountain
What would you guys recommend for getting your first UE jjob after college? I study software development at Uni, and want to be a C++ programmer
gentle chasm
so apply to be C++ programmer in studio using Unreal 😛
fickle hatch
@plucky hatch I figure out the working ethic by giving people a small (paid) task - it's a real task, but super limited in scope. Also intuition, I've had plenty of success in telling the character of a person from limited communication with them. Also for N1 point about style consistency, we give out specific workflows to follow to the artist (tailored to the artist if needed)
vocal meadow
https://youtu.be/9oGfI4o6Xfs @nimble steeple
hazy bramble
Are there mostly blueprint jobs? I can do c++, I just don't see a reason using it, blueprint workflow is faster (with plugins), it has no compilation time and it's less error-prone. Are there much teams which share this position?
tidal moth
unlikely, it's mostly done by designers and part of the design workflow
best practices will have you convert most if not all blueprints into code eventually
nova tartan
do blueprints still have substantial execution overhead that makes them slower? I read that in the past but haven't looked into it personally
digital gate
Unless it's nativized but that's not a flawless transition
@hazy bramble nothing wrong with BP only with a few catches. Small team of programmers (ie: you), you have to be able to write C++ in order to extend functionality or fix plugins, and you have to take great care to manage complexity.
I've seen BPs which take over 30s to open the context menu or drag a pin
tidal moth
jesus
digital gate
I would shy away from literally only knowing BP because that really hamstrings you and your team
civic stratus
I thouhgt I'd share this here, for weeks/months/years I've been trying to find a decent mod project to work on and its been 'a bit difficult' to find likeminded professional people to work with. (sidenote) last few days I found a professional paid project so Im all good and happy. However its funny I just had a message from another person I contacted a few days prior regarding their vague mod project and that person came across as: 'a bit of a dick'. after a few quick messages to/from on sunday, my last message was: 'could you give me some examples, or the sort of items you want or the polycounts/LODs requrired, what sort of engine, what bitmaps sizes etc etc?' and after a long blank silence from them, I just got a message 'Hello there, is now a good time to start the models?' expecting me to magic up a load of stuff for their project with no input from them, no illustrations or reference examples etc etc.
im trying work out how to ghost them...
in a stylish way.
quiet wyvern
might need to just suck it up and order them around, just tell them what you need to get started. you fill the gaps in their knowledge, and if they don't get that then just walk away
tidal moth
if you're not getting paid you don't owe them anything, and if they're dicks just block em and move on
there's no reason to spend more time on them than absolutely necessary
I don't recommend doing the same once in the industry however
civic stratus
yeah of course, like I said I got offered a foot in the door doing low end stuff for a studio elsewhere, but im surprised at how many (using professional language now) 'fucking losers' post stuff on forums for team members and they have zero skills or experience and expect others to do all the work...
one of my favourites!
tidal moth
I wouldn't personally frequent groups that invite that level of standard
civic stratus
this really sums up a lot of the people who post stuff recruiting others into their mod groups or whatever... sorting the 'wheat from the chaff' (if that makese sense) if the hard part.
merry sequoia
FB groups in general probably aren’t the way to go
civic stratus
it was from a link on polycount.
tidal moth
slackers started out as a facebook group 🤔
civic stratus
Facebook groups for Blender/Unreal are fucking hillarious, everyday those groups get worse and worse with more people asking dumb questions.
hahaaha.
merry sequoia
clutches his bad blueprint pearl string
civic stratus
for example, an exmaple of a 'shit post' (not a shitpost, just a 'shit' post) will have a title like: 'need team members for our project' and then the post itself might say 'we are doing a FPS RPG game and we need a modeller and animator to join our team. here is the discord: ...' I dont take those sort of posts seriously but I sometimes message them just to ask for 'more info' and they are so fucking ropey.
tidal moth
there's definitely a lot of pipedreaming going on
civic stratus
first thing, I want a to know what country the team is based in, at least what timezone etc, especially if they say 'post launch royalties' etc cause payment and what country they're in can be a big deal.
quiet wyvern
ideas are cheap, just make the games yourself lol
tidal moth
people with no experience attempting to make the next mmo
civic stratus
if someone is based in Bangladeshi and they have a great idea and need my modelling skills, chances are, I'm not getting paid.
merry sequoia
People with no experience trying to make any MP game at all cranz lol
mystic storm
If i had a $ for every "game idea" that was just a story or character concept
tidal moth
generally if you don't sign a contract saying "you get paid" and the company doesn't have an address in a country or more than 1 employee then you're not getting paid
civic stratus
meanwhile I had someone from Peru/Chillie (and they were purposesly vague on their location until I asked them directly) who emailed me a 20 page pdf book explaining the 'feel' of their game. only 1 page covered the techincal stuff, and that was 2 sentences. 'the game will be done in Unity. It will use PBR textures'
WTF!
is that all?
merry sequoia
Now just imagine trying to hire actual people and sifting through all the nonsense applications :p
tidal moth
yeah I'm glad I'm not a recruiter
on the other hand you get to fine tune your bullshit detector
civic stratus
I I had a good compliment yesterday 'I like how you wrote that email, straight to the point'
merry sequoia
If I wanna fine tune my BS detector I’ll just play ‘Papers, please” ;p
tidal moth
if you don't die of boredom first, sure
mystic hull
Greetings,,
I have this implementation design/architecture for a fresh networked system that hasn't been done before (afaik) - I lack an actual game to implement this system into, or if I choose to write a GDD around it, I'll still be hugely lacking in art. That is to say, I only know what I do best, write the code.
What would you do in such a case? Just write the code down & hope somebody notices you?
tidal moth
senpai notice my code pls
sell it as a plugin
write REALLY REALLY GOOD documentation for it
and support it
mystic hull
hey, I haven't thought of that
tidal moth
create a small demo for it using barebones
mystic hull
I legit feel stupid now 🤣
Thing is though, no games that exist right now use anything similiar to what I have in mind
I was considering open sourcing it, just so I can have an excuse to write it
but eh..
merry sequoia
Make it first
tidal moth
^^^^^^^^^
mystic hull
Thank you!
merry sequoia
Need a proof of concept if you’re going to pitch it to begin with. Implement it in a bare bones demo like Cranz said would go a long way
mystic hull
Makes sense, that I shall do
acoustic jay
Does anyone know how to use the unreal bot? I'd like to post some jobs here
acoustic jay
thanks
brave owl
Facebook groups for Blender/Unreal are fucking hillarious, everyday those groups get worse and worse with more people asking dumb questions.
for example, an exmaple of a 'shit post' (not a shitpost, just a 'shit' post) will have a title like: 'need team members for our project' and then the post itself might say 'we are doing a FPS RPG game and we need a modeller and animator to join our team
@civic stratus these are great. gamedev.net used to be full of these. You know theyll build a team of 30 like minded newbies, and the 'leader' has no game development experience or even software project management experience, and theyll sit on discord for a month saying how awesome their COD killer will be, they might draw or commission some concept art, then the project quietly dies.
pastel estuary
@brave owl wording!
brave owl
wording?
can you please clarify what you mean @pastel estuary ?
oh sorry. i just copy/pasted someones quote
didnt realise
pastel estuary
np, just trying to get people to use the curse words less, enough of that in the world already
brave owl
this is true 🙂
pastel estuary
that said, dont listen to me when I am on a tirade :p
brave owl
lol
steel creek
cursing is fine. words are words. What I am looking for is the part where this had anything to do with careers.
tidal moth
are you saying people without experience recruiting other people without experience to join a discord where they talk smack isn't a career choice?!
steel creek
strange, i know.
chrome bone
you would be surprised.. i wonder if discord has stats on how fast game dev discords become dormant.
bronze dew
building the game is one of the easier parts... managing the people (especially unpaid) is very hard
vocal meadow
different things are more difficult for other people though, its easy to say the majority of everything is hard compared to game building lol
bronze dew
building a team that can work long distance over long periods of time without pay is hard 😛 but doable occasionally...
marsh stream
Hi guys , just wanted to ask a question regarding a career in VR. Its recently become a hobby of mine, which I really like and I was thinking "is it too early to specialize in VR" ? Is it a crowded market for developers, compared to the audience size? Therefore the demand for VR devs is quite low? If I wish to obtain experience in the industry, I might have to shoot for something that is more in demand? I have little to no experience in the Game Dev world (just studied Game Dev at Uni). Im really trying to find a path for me that I love and ofc see some potential in obtaining a job in that desired field. Atm I really enjoy Level Design and Virtual Reality development. I enjoy both fairly equally. Do I just learn how to do both? do I specialise in either?
Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated 👍
bronze dew
VR is a cruel mistress.... while it will very likely become a much larger thing... currently it’s a huge amount of work to get even the most basic things working well compared to traditional games or other far more established pipelines
(Been full time job for 4 years )
marsh stream
@bronze dew Yeah I see that. But in regards to demand or opportunities, how does that look? Simply too difficult/competitive to get into, this early in the VR realm : /
bronze dew
I’d say there is demand... but not as much as you might think. It’s still very much RnD work. If your skill set is there along with understanding old school optimization techniques you might do fine 🙂
marsh stream
@bronze dew I see. Well I guess the tricky part is determining what your skill set requires in order to be in that position 😅
tidal moth
depending on where you are based VR start ups are a thing, usually backed by larger companies
still getting into them as a designer requires some experience mostly, but I reckon it's such a niche field that hobbyist experience is going to be a very strong positive
west sonnet
Seen such position within government and medical sectors. Not so much game studios.
crude coral
Hello people,my name is Luiz,im new here,can i get some knowlegde of your experience on the areas that you all work on ?
fickle hatch
I do tech art and engineering and designing workflows and lots more stuff
crude coral
hi @fickle hatch ,you work in those areas since ?
fickle hatch
Since like 10 years ago. It's kinda hard to tell where it begins since I've worked on varied things
crude coral
oh got it,how did you get engaged on unreal ? it was because some specific project ?
or just because it was a need for you to learn ?
fickle hatch
I was working on simulating subway trains and built a prototype based on Source Engine. It worked out really well and there was a big demand for a more proper version of it so we started to develop it using UE4
At the time, we evaluated Unity vs UE4 vs Cryengine and UE4 was the only one at the time that had any sort of source code available - so we went with that
The project required a lot of custom engine changes and stuff so I got engaged with unreal because it was the only thing that offered that
hybrid phoenix
I'm a technical generalist with a focus on tech art (optimization, materials, tools like foliage generators)
Been doing gamedev for over six years now, started out with CryEngine as 'level designer', moved to Unity and got into programming, moved to UE4 because Unity 4 didn't suffice for our rendering needs and was closed off as heck, and since then I've been specializing in the tech-art side of UE4
(The artsy tech-art side, not the Deathrey side)
crude coral
@hybrid phoenix i really have no idea now to use unreal today,and i want to engage on dev area specfic for the art side of the sutff like you do
hybrid phoenix
My daily work revolves mostly around the material editor, lighting and profiling (checking for optimizations and such), with a bunch of blueprinting on the side. The blueprint things are usually more quality-of-life than things that you see as a customer, but they can speed up my work massively
(I.e. bulk material edits - the tool takes a few minutes to create, while doing the materials one by one would take hours. It doesn't help the final product though)
The best starting points I can give for the stuff I do is do a bit of programming to develop the technical mindset and learn color theory and such
Because those are the two knowledge-sets you're trying to combine
fickle hatch
You should also be aware of basic physics and how light works, how materials reflect light, what is light and how it reacts with solids
hybrid phoenix
Yeah, that's the "and such" after color tehory
fickle hatch
How do your eyes see light, what is intensity vs brightness, what are some of the surfaces that aren't properly simulated by PBR and why
hybrid phoenix
You should basically learn the stuff an artist would learn
As well as the stuff a (base-level) programmer learns
For my specific area it's more towards the artist knowledge than the programming knowledge
But that varies, I think BlackFox is more towards the technical side
tidal moth
it seems like a long road considering, have you considered just jumping into the engine and doing stuff @crude coral?
hybrid phoenix
Aside from the theoretical knowledge I use on a daily basis, that's the main thing ^
Just do it
If you're driven you'll also learn more and more about that theoretical side as you do things, because you'll run into problems and search for solutions
And those solutions are often grounded in theory 😛
fickle hatch
Yeah I do more technical things
crude coral
it seems like a long road considering, have you considered just jumping into the engine and doing stuff @crude coral?
@tidal moth its a possibility too,im open to make for learn too
fickle hatch
Example of a practical task - create a very good granite material
Polished granite specifically
tidal moth
If you're starting from zero, I recommend just making stuff
it's going to be a long road before you get to a place where you can advertise your skills though
hybrid phoenix
Really the biggest advice I've got, which is generally applicable in gamedev
fickle hatch
This required studying the composition of granite and each of it's components and then the purely technical aspects of setting up a material that supports two roughnesses (polished granite has two roughnesses and two normals - cannot be recreated with PBR workflow accurately by default)
hybrid phoenix
Be self-critical. Be proud of what you do, and then proceed to look what you should improve. And be honest about it to yourself, don't act like your work is perfect, because 'criticism' (whether from yourself or others) is the only way you'll get better
I see too many beginning artists who overvalue themselves and refuse to hear anything else
tidal moth
ego is a huge issue yeah
sadly it's linked to dunning kruger
so the only real "cure" is the bitterness of experience
hybrid phoenix
For me personally, in the moment I always think my work is great, but I can't stop tweaking and seeing little issues, so I'll keep improving it anyway. If I look back a year later, I'll think it sucked
So I'm not very negative about what I put out, but I keep looking for little things to improve about the thing I've already achieved
(Nowadays I do also have my moments where I produce something very sub-par out of the blue and I just trash it, but that's because my own standards have risen a lot, so trying new stuff has a steeper learning curve)
tidal moth
I think it's just about creating stuff
hybrid phoenix
Yup
tidal moth
the improving comes with iteration
tidal moth
like once you know how to make such and such asset, then the next time you'll make it better
hybrid phoenix
I was incredibly proud when I first made cubes move in Unity. I wrote AI! Barring the fact that they moved through everything because they didn't actually have proper navigation...
tidal moth
yeah but it's not something that's easily taught
hybrid phoenix
So the next step was the obvious missing piece being navigation
tidal moth
some people are naturally grounded and understand how to self improve
hybrid phoenix
Then after that the next missing link is a bit of extra behaviour
And it just keeps rolling like that
tidal moth
others aren't and need the bitterness of experience in turn
hybrid phoenix
Suppose that's true. I'm a bit too ambitious for my own good, so I'll push for self-improvement any day
tidal moth
that's also why experience is such a key indicator of a person's skill level
because it goes beyond the skill in a particular field or role
crude coral
i feel kinda of the new rookie hearing you all talk
its pretty great to see such passionet people about what they do
so you guys can me recommend some tutorial to get things for do ?
tidal moth
depends on what you want to do
I would suggest trying to make a small game prototype happen
and then once you run into issues look for tutorials on that particular issue
if you can't find any info, ask around in the appropriate channels. #more-resources is a good place to start
fickle hatch
I've not read a tutorial in so long I just don't have any pointers there
hybrid phoenix
For as far as I've ever done tutorials, they've been general ones, like videos explaining how to work with arrays or something
Other than that it's really a matter of deciding what to do, trying to do it, and then googling like no tomorrow when you get stuck
(Googling for the specific thing you're stuck at, so in the case of Zombie AI following the player, you should be asking "How do I get another actor's position", rather than "how do I make a zombie follow the player")
fickle hatch
I generally dislike tutorials, I jump straight into example code/projects and fiddle with them myself
mystic hull
I like books
; formalized, structured educational content
Tutorials are a pain almost always
bronze dew
books are pretty rare for this kinda stuff anymore
fickle hatch
Books have a long turnaround time
By the time you release a book it might be well outdated
distant bough
@crude coral It's important to start small. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Similar to hobbies like guitar, if you start off with too big a project you'll either give up because it's too hard, or get yourself into a complete mess because you don't yet know how to lay your projects out. Not having an understanding of blueprints can lead to you making a mess, which is absolutely fine; let yourself make messes! (It's all part of the learning process) But do so in small projects. You're less likely to hit a wall that frustrates you to the point of stopping, and you can quickly move onto the next project which will have a plethora of new challenges for you to solve. It's tempting to go for "the big one" straight off the bat, just contain yourself 😄 I'm assuming that you're wanting to make some games end-to-end. Have a read of some of the getting started pages https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/GettingStarted/index.html
If you're an artist, don't ignore Blueprints! Embrace them! I understand that programming concepts can be hard to grasp at first, but I can guarantee that you'll have a moment where it will just "click". There's plenty of people on here who will help you accomplish what you're trying to do ^^. Having an understanding of Blueprints early on is insanely valuable! https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Blueprints/GettingStarted/index.html
Are you looking to make 2D or 3D games?
tidal moth
By the time you release a book it might be well outdated
@fickle hatch I don't know if that's true. perhaps if you're referencing exact versions of a product, but beyond that most principles in any of the roles of game dev are pretty timeless.
crude coral
@distant bough wow,this is kinda a whole topic,thanks man
merry sequoia
Is there an age that’s too old to get into the industry? I mean I know “you’re never too young to learn something new!” And all but realistically is someone entering the industry later than their 20s going to be looked over more easily?
wet tundra
No
Age really doesnt matter as long as youre capable of doing what you need to
You could get in at 18, or 60, theres really no discrepancies if your work is the same as anyone elses
tidal moth
some people might resent a too old candidate for a too junior position, but equally that won't really be a common scenario
I've seen juniors well into their 30s though so I wouldn't worry too much about it
ashen lynx
There are plenty of sugar-coated stories, but if you enter at 30s, you will have roughly a decade of disadvantage and nothing would ever change that.
merry sequoia
I mean in comparison to other 30 year olds in the industry, sure. I would think 10+ years would land those people higher than junior level positions though
tidal moth
consider that even within the industry there are different roles that people can bounce between
it's not uncommon for people to try things before finding their niche
I've seen QA become UI designers, then moving onto level design
game designers becoming writers
game designers becoming programmers
programmers becoming tech artists
there's a lot of skill overlap in many of those cases, but most times when you switch roles you start from the bottom
merry sequoia
Well I mean Im going from art to programming pending all goes according to plan. I wouldnt expect to do anything but start at the bottom in programming 😛
tidal moth
in our company we picked up a few mathematicians and physicists as programmers as well
generally I don't think anyone's going to hold any prior experience in any field against you, but it depends on how present it
merry sequoia
My blueprints are super organized and visually appealing. ;p
tidal moth
a friend of mine went on to become a roboticist from being a vfx artist
tbh though if you're looking for a programmer role you'll need to deep dive into code
merry sequoia
I just havent gotten to coding my game im using to learn UE4 yet. Im pretty familiar with Python as a whole, and I know cpp just not a lot of experience in it yet.
well. Im blueprint coding to prototype etc and just havent gone to cpp conversion for efficiency etc
art made me money and I programmed some for fun, seemed logical to combine the two to make games. Just new to the UE4 process
tidal moth
I'd recommend you take a look at good system architecture and design patterns as well
that's something independent of UE4 that is really solid knowledge
and will get you far
solving logical problems is just a small step in solving structural or organizational problems
e.g. making sure that you future proof yourself against changes
and don't acquire technical debt
merry sequoia
Im not sure what you mean by technical debt, you mean like when something doesnt scale well?
tidal moth
technical debt is when you make an okay solution that you know down the line you'll have the refactor but don't have time to flesh out properly right now
so you know there is a better more malleable solution and you need time to implement that solution
but then you get pulled away to do more urgent tasks
and the backlog fills up with refactors that you have to make
merry sequoia
Isnt "okay solution" part of prototyping and the like?
merry sequoia
well not working in a studio and making a game to learn ropes its all my job right now lol
but I get what you mean
tidal moth
generally technical debt is unavoidable, but the ideal is to keep it at a minimum through best practices and good knowledge of system architecture
hence why learning design pattern and maybe picking up a couple uni courses in software development would get you far
generally for programmers a degree is seen as mandatory, but if you show good knowledge you may be able to skirt around that
I'll let more savvy actual programmers do the talking here though
I just do design
also this is hilarious and relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_smell
and really relevant to how much the internet is actually on fire at any given time: https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks
marsh dome
Ah.... so.... im prepared to take whatever beating for this question may inspire someone to inflict on me.
west sonnet
#looking-for-talent read pinned message or refer to #more-resources on how to post
deft plaza
Re: programming books
News of the death of programming books has been greatly exaggerated. They don't go out of fashion as quickly as people like to make out, and they are THE resource that makes the difference between a noob and someone worth working with.
learning to program is like a pyramid. You want a strong base of time in seat and iteration, but you need to top that with collaborating with others, mentorship, an independent study. Because you are not going to independently discover the best practices in a vacuum.
Carpenters do not just make up joints and techniques as they go along. They learn from other carpenters, and stand on the shoulders of others that have gone before them. It's the same for programming. Too many people never build on what they've learned so they stall out early.
It's also similar to learning a new instrument. Practice is important, but you also need people and resources to help you learn new techniques and improve your flaws. Drummer of RUSH was taking music lessons well into the 2010s. Even he had more to learn from study and mentorship.
tidal moth
GoF is still the authority on design patterns
merry sequoia
some new reading material. nice.
deft plaza
Any degree helps a lot. It is possible to get a job without a degree but it is harder. The entry-level positions are crowded with applicants and the industry is not as hot as it used to be.
If you want to be a computer programmer, your best bet is a computer science degree.
78% of working developers have a degree of some sort, the numbers get higher when we are talking about FAANG or higher-level positions.
crude coral
good night(at least here) for everyone
you can find online jobs on the area of you all works at the industry ?
west sonnet
Wonder if they mean remote work. If so, why would location matter.
crude coral
its remote that in refering,sorry for the wrong words
fickle hatch
@crude coral well, do you have a specific question? The answer I can give you so far is "yes, it is possible to get a remote job, though it's kind of a niche"
crude coral
gathering experience as junior,its possible that i can get a remote work ?
west sonnet
Yes
fickle hatch
It is entirely possible to get a junior remote working position, but it has it's own serious drawbacks (people don't trust you with as much responsibility, autonomy etc)
tidal moth
lol people don't trust juniors generally
I'd be more concerned with being screwed out of money
west sonnet
People are less likely to be scummy if they have to look you in the eye.
Or maybe it’s a black raven case
tidal moth
what's a black raven case
west sonnet
Basically finding unrelated correlations and treating them as causation
tidal moth
never heard the term, good to know
crude coral
i more open to work for gain portifolio,not too much concerned about high payments,as long as i can pay my daily bills
west sonnet
that's the exact thing not to say to a potential employer
vocal meadow
wouldn't advertise that yeah, does yourself no favors
crude coral
you're right, @west sonnet
steel creek
please don't work for exposure dollars. it devalues yourself and everyone else trying to do the same. i know it's hard to resist, but you will be better off in the long run of your entire career. if you plan to make one.
crude coral
@steel creek sorry for what i said above,and i really want to build a solid career on the industry
steel creek
no worries. i think most people have been in the same spot. it's hard.
crude coral
and also @steel creek you work in wich area of the industrie ?and what is your connection with the ureal engine ?
nova tartan
I don't like the idea of junior level staff working remote, there's so much company culture and work experience to be gained from being with the team physically
If you were an expert hired because you are an expert, I could see it, or someone who had to move but is staying with the company, but not a junior staff
Also I'm kind of wary because one person who joined our company and asked to work from home frequently was a scammer who lied about their abilities
crude coral
@nova tartan i really would apreciate to work on a company on the area related to the industry that i want to work,but this is not the thing that i can find on the area or even in the country that i live.
and i don't have conditions to move to somewhere without the guarantee that i would be hired
steel creek
@crude coral I work in VFX and we tool lots of TD/Animator tools around it and Unity. I also do freelance for both, etc...
crude coral
@plucky hatch yeah,i got it,i'll have a more appropriate posture in a talk with an employer,i'll make sure of that
nova tartan
We've hired remote before and had it work out
But that was a very experienced dev with lots of open source contributions
I would personally veto attempts to hire beginner/junior devs remote
bronze dew
it really depends on what you need developed... juniors can be very useful
tidal moth
juniors are useful, but they need to be monitored, often closely
and this isn't a knock against people who are juniors, it's just that the entire idea behind a junior role is that they require effort to blossom into a fully fledged <role> person
marsh stream
Its tough. I remember when I was studying and I wanted an internship, I couldn't find one and the main reason was due to lack of skill and sometimes experience. I understood. Im a student I have lots to learn. So then I graduated and was looking for internships, pretty hopeful. I had learnt so much and was ready to work hard and show my knowledge I had spent years gaining. Then i discovered a lot of internships required you to be a student which is so frustrating (i suppose its due to payment reasons? tax? some government issue for free work i guess). Thats when I have up on internships just wanted to work in game dev in my free time and build my skills that way. Still building my skills today and growing as a developer. Looking forward to one day getting into the industry 👍
hybrid phoenix
Gamedev has this enjoyable situation where everyone's like
"Oh as long as you're good at what you do it'll be okay"
But then junior positions proceed to have released (AAA) titles as requirement
As well as 3+ years of experience
So in fact it's very hard to get started
marsh stream
Yeah 😞
I know this is even worse than doing work for free, but I've become so desperate for any work that I even wished I could pay for a studio to take me in and have an internship (context: "wat do i have to do get any form of experience...do i have to pay someone???")
Ofc I havent and wont ever but that was one of my more 'down' days
Although in my case I do really need to sharpen up on my skills, im ok at a lot. not great at anything .
cerulean bone
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfIEbxT-p5b0UkoOXgKEA9PKVK8kHItTPSFDd8oBAKWdopRoQ/viewform?usp=sf_link can anybody fill this out to help with my college work? please and thankyou!
flat gazelle
Damn, where are you seeing these 3+ year and shipped title requirements for juniors? That sounds insane.
hybrid phoenix
Don't have any links, but I come across them every now and then
(Not really actively job-searching, I just see stuff come by and click out of interest)
crystal summit
you sometimes might come across something like that, but you'll never see senior positions that don't require previous experiences
so unfair 😦
tidal moth
But then junior positions proceed to have released (AAA) titles as requirement
@hybrid phoenix I've never seen this before, can you screenshot that for me?
ah I'm late to the conversation
merry sequoia
That part I’ve not seen, but plenty that require the years of experience
tidal moth
feel free to screenshot it
hybrid phoenix
If no-one else has ever seen it then I'm probably remembering things incorrectly
merry sequoia
Next time I am browsing studio jobs and see it I’ll share :p
Generally the bigger studios not indie or smaller
tidal moth
I'd like to know who
Ubisoft doesn't do this, not for a junior position
I've seen them require 10 years for a regular LD position, but I think it's because they're internally using a different system
so I assume it would fit into their role of expert/super expert
merry sequoia
Looking at a blizzard one that just says “experience with...” but not the specific year requirements. Programming wise
Their art positions do have it though now that I’m looking
tidal moth
screenshot those as well
tidal moth
but not junior
merry sequoia
It’s rare to see “junior” art from my experience
Usually intern, then standard, then leads
tidal moth
well I thought the idea was that we were looking for junior positions that required experience?
and no, junior comes before intermediate
and after intern
merry sequoia
Usually, but like I said it’s rarer to see junior artists
tidal moth
junior/associate are usually the same level
in either case let me know if you see a junior role that requires experience
tidal moth
yeah I did mean when you have time or if you had an example ready
merry sequoia
I can’t speak for programming but as an artist I can say it’s a common complaint to need experience to get the jobs.
Maybe it’s because art isn’t as straight forward as programming but it’s much rarer to see junior jobs available.
I don’t know if that’s because they recruit straight from places like “the guild” and are filled fast so not posted or what but it’s rarer to see those available
merry sequoia
Most of my experience came through freelance since junior positions were not available
tidal moth
unless it's VFX I think, I think VFX people seem pretty rare in games? @flat gazelle would know
pastel estuary
basically, there are not even enough bad vfx artists to fill all the positions
pastel estuary
but we do see an influx of people getting hired on our vfx discord
which is awesomesauce
flat gazelle
I've never put a shipped title nor a years of experience requirement on a junior role
tidal moth
same
merry sequoia
Thanos is that you snapping comments? ;p
flat gazelle
Nah, I just remembered which server I'm on
merry sequoia
Either way it gives hope. Finding art jobs even as a decent experience artist can be difficult.
It’s why I’ve picked up programming and lean towards technical art / VFX / Design type stuff
Got a fever for creation and the only cure is more studio work. :p
tidal moth
that's a weird way to spell cowbell
merry sequoia
I set it as a reference.
fickle hatch
I saw junior jobs with multiple year experience requirements for programmers
Mostly in smaller companies
nova tartan
I tend to just ignore those and apply anyways, very little to lose
flat gazelle
I wouldn't.
Absolute alarmbells. It means the company wants an intermediate, but they only want to pay a junior pay. Proper scum.
honest cipher
can confirm
devout saddle
Junior positions with multiple year experience. “Were looking for someone just starting out for this junior position but you also need 40 years of coding experience”
fickle hatch
You need 5 years of experience with a technology that came out 3 years ago
devout saddle
Feelsbadman
tidal moth
You need 5 years of experience with a technology that came out 3 years ago
this I've seen happen but not tied to a junior role. it's just recruiters not understanding tech most of the time
or company people in general
fickle hatch
With a non-junior role I've seen "you need 10 years of experience with a technology that came out 3 years ago"
devout saddle
Feelsworseman
hybrid phoenix
I remember that stuff when UE4 was new
And a lot of the job posts were like "4 years experience with UE4"
Yeah pal, that ain't gonna work. It's been out for two
acoustic anvil
read between the lines: they want to hire Tim only
tidal moth
a few studios did get UE4 at a time before public release if I remember correctly
mental drum
Well every studio ask for years of experience, you can proof your value without them I bet in many cases (but yeah request more years of exp than years the software is out is absurd)
@honest cipher private things keep private
Non related with my last job in anyway, but to point cases from friends, beware of who put the job offer and who gives the job cause could differ and isn't a good idea find out the numbers aren't the same on last instance
vocal meadow
<@&213101288538374145>
north narwhal
👍🏽
bronze dew
my favs are asking for 5 years HLSL and 4+ AAA titles with 3 years houdini, C++ and (insert 20 more types of experience) but they list it as a normal position.... seriously... who writes this stuff.... (oh yeah... ppl with no actual clue.. just given a wish list... someone did not think this would actually be multiple ppl)
rant mode off
or asking for a "fullstack" game dev
that's a fun one
tidal moth
that could be interpreted as core tech / gameplay though
crude coral
i just feel that some companies want to set a high bar but they just search all the new tech name and paste on the requirements
fickle hatch
I feel it's the case of "oh, so you don' thave 4+ AAA titles shipped? Well, normally we wouldn't hire you but... well, if you agree to this smaller salary, we can see if we can work something out?" sometimes
I know I've contemplated doing something like that, but it's so gross I'd rather use more ethical means
tidal moth
the other end of that is that people don't care and just apply
so you end up having to sift through hundreds of daily applications
especially for what are considered soft roles
fickle hatch
How is putting up odd requirements gonna help with that though
vocal meadow
tbh though, seems like more often than not people avoid applying to places where the problem of too many applicants is really a non issue
fickle hatch
Maybe put a damper on the good workers, dunno
tidal moth
it's a give and take
fickle hatch
I know it would discourage me, but I know people who don't even read what the job offer is
tidal moth
at any given time there's plenty more supply than demand
vocal meadow
"i'm going to apply there, i just have to finish my mmorpgfps to prove myself first for the portfolio"
Yeah
tidal moth
I don't want to seem like I'm defending bad job descriptions, I personally think they're terrible
vocal meadow
yeah sentiment was just, i don't think that listing highest expectations should deter people from applying when they don't meet them (but it does)
tidal moth
but there are realities of the industry, so even in the case of them turning potentially good workers away, there's so many more worker that will apply to them that they will still have a good choice between them
gentle chasm
especially that in gamedev you could apply for position without any official job offer and get hired 😉
crude coral
@marsh stream about the intership situation,i kinda faced something like that some years ago when i was searching the possibilities of an intership,and the requirements were just insane,me as someone alone there,i couldn't have a full day job to pay the colleague,so i would have to work half period,but this wouldn't be enought to pay the bills,it feels just absurd for me.
west sonnet
It seems to do the opposite of what I assume is the goal of attracting qualified individuals. Those that aren’t naive know that such broad requirements aren’t feasible. Thus, you’re attracting desperate individuals instead. Which I guess is the goal
Not get qualified employees but desperate ones. Red flags all around 🤔
vocal meadow
Makes sense really. I mean internships and royalty / free work sets similar expectations
vocal meadow
Making a living is a thing, they aren't necessarily different things
I dunno the kungfu behind their goals of course, with such expectations
west sonnet
Still think it’s just some silly recruiters
vocal meadow
100% likely
crude coral
i would be full spot on to pay a colleague and to work hard on that to improve on industry,but when all the purposes contradicting themselves,this doens't sound a good way to start something
vocal meadow
all the qualifications?
crude coral
this can apply for this situation as well,i was talking about the intership stuff
how they put some many rules,so many subjects that you as an indivudual
cant affort pay your own bills
gentle chasm
it's awesome they paid anything 😄
I know companies that would pay a minimal wage to juniors because "we're giving you this opportunity to create things, you know, you should pay us" approach
there's should be a special place in Syberian mines for such employers
vocal meadow
gee thanks, what a favor
tidal moth
I think I know those same companies cough
vocal meadow
wheeze
fickle hatch
With all this exposure you're getting, you ought to be paying us!
vocal meadow
i really wonder how much these companies back you when you list them as references too
crude coral
everyone,as someone that its starting on my studies for work at this industrie,wich would be your tip for someone starting now ?
PS : i'm 20 years old
vocal meadow
Houdini
gentle chasm
if you'd have doubts if your univ teaches you anything, quit it - save time and money 😛
vocal meadow
it encapsulates everything except for maybe sound design
tidal moth
if you're in a technical role, invest in learning programming. from uni, if you have to
single best decision I ever made
gentle chasm
if possible, choose a job that you can learn - you should be making big progress first months in the first job
if your progress stop, always think what you could be changed so you can learn things again, look at "learning opportunities"
tidal moth
even as a designer, I'm not required any particularly hard programming, but the mindset I learned from programming has taught me to seek out and understand problems ahead of time. secondly, whatever projects you start, see that you finish as many of them as possible.
scope down if you have to, but finish them
gentle chasm
people who always try to learn - there are people who you want to work with and respect, and be such person
if somebody stops learning, after few years he's like old grandpa not understanding new phones
crude coral
i'm actually concluind an colleague course at another area,long history,but ill apply for other course more focused on the area that i want to work when i end up ,but im in a stop that im pretty sure that what i want to learn i can find online and make efforts for dedicate as much as i can for achieve my goals(not sayn that wouldn't be nice to be in a collegue course focused on that,but you know what i mean)
hi mister @tidal moth can you anwser me some questions ? you work in a area that i want to work along on the industry,if you have some time for it,of course
crude coral
sure,im the spot that you are today,wich would be the advice that you would give for yourself when you started ?
tidal moth
what I said above
thirdly, I may add
take as many free lessons from other people as possible, whether they be given by people online, in person or by observation
not listening/not observing is perhaps the single greatest failure of a worker
crude coral
okay
and also this is a question for everyone here,just a curiosity of mine : have you ever worked with someone from brazil on your area ? i kinda see a lot of people from here taking some good spots on the industry,like rafael grassetti.
west sonnet
Generally people don’t care where you’re from. Your action speaks of you, not your place of birth.
bronze dew
I've had a few co-workers from brazil, great people to work with... became good friends
crude coral
i agree with that,like i said,before its just a curiosity matter of fact,its not a big deal for me
@bronze dew thats great to hear mate
bronze dew
I would have to say... Aussies have historically been the hardest for me to work with
west sonnet
Large multicultural workplace is a delight. Must say.
pastel estuary
dutchies for me, and I am dutch
tidal moth
lol
pastel estuary
not all of course, but especially younger dutch people I dealt with have a lot of ego/arrogance
bronze dew
Canadians have been hit / miss for me...
it's either they hate me.. or really like me... "shrugs"
tidal moth
I've felt that same sentiment, but I think it's true for most countries
I think italians have been among the best to work with though
pastel estuary
but generally I'd like to get along with everyone
tidal moth
just on a general level
crude coral
i really would apreciate to work with people from everywhere,even there that its a big country,i really feel great making friendships and working along with peoples from different background
part of the human growth comes from you sharing yourself and your qualities with someone,and i feel that more on a different reality scale
nova tartan
We hire a bit from brazil due to good connections with the academic community there
Fun people
crude coral
@nova tartan good to hear
nova tartan
Get them drunk(which was easy they tend to go hard after work) and they tell lots of good stories
gentle chasm
that reminds of caipirinha...
and Brazilians drinks: half booze, half passion fruit 😄
and churrasco ❤️
crude coral
@gentle chasm great to see someone passionated about churrasco,=
@nova tartan its not just in work,get some of them in colleague parties(calouradas how we call here) you will probably see some of the funiest and absurds situations
gentle chasm
@crude coral Some Brazilian girl attempted to kill me by taking me to the restaurant where they kept coming with new type of meat for an hour
I almost died because of eating all of that
It was properly insane 😅
crude coral
damm,the rodizio its not for everyone,all the cuts are great but i usually would recommend to jump a meal for go to one,if not you will probably not pass through the third dish,but you're a lucky man,having someone for taking you into this experience
gentle chasm
So you have the name for this type of murder 😅😂
Come to Poland, you'll get meat & vodka treatment easily, just ask 😎😎😎
crude coral
@gentle chasm the rodizio culture its big here,they just killed me sometimes too😆 ,specially with pizza rodizios,its pretty great to apreciate with someone or a group,but yeah i would apreciate to go to there,a lot of respect for your country history,and sure i would love to take some shots,and i also invite you to try feijoada,but with the same recommendations that i said above,or that will put you down more fast than some rodizio of meats
gentle chasm
Everybody say they love our history, but they actually come to steal our women 😂
crude coral
i wouldn't blame it,i would do the same thing :v
unreal heron
just hours
west sonnet
That depends on the individual 🤷♀️
fickle hatch
I think he wants a template for an invoice, like a page with a table you fill in
west sonnet
what they specialize in, and what they’re making
fickle hatch
You can find those online, they are kinda common
You need one that leaves you a breakdown of tasks and total sum and stuff. I actually only see invoices and never give them out though, they seem to be super arbitrary
vocal meadow
generally,
| description | hours spent |
| cake | 4 |
| cookie | 1 |
-------------------------------
| total | 5 |
| rate |$20.00 |
| due |$100.00 |```Look development in ue
vocal meadow
| description | hours spent |
| programming | 4 |
| bug fixing | 1 |
-------------------------------
| total | 5 |
| rate |$XX.00 |
| due |$XX.00 |```Google drive has pretty good spreadsheets
its good to number your invoices too
fickle hatch
I know this is probably irrelevant here, but I strongly suggest including a field for your outgoing invoice number (something that clearly identifies your invoice and only has numbers, letters, maybe a dash or a slash)
unreal heron
Thanks guys
digital gate
I can't imagine why you wouldn't do that. Plus you'd have each one saved such that finding that invoice is trivial by the number alone
You could even go so far as to itemize by task ID if your client has a task tracker.
fickle hatch
Our numbering/document system supports that and we have unique ID's per task. It's really convenient
mystic hull
Paypal templates are fine for a start 🤔
split quail
wave is an awesome free accounting/payments system folks. Ive used it for years. :)
flat gazelle
WRT the invoice question: Check local regulations. Different countries have different requirements of what must be included on the invoice for it to be legal. Miss one of these and the client has the legal right not to pay you.
pastel estuary
@bright cargo #looking-for-work and please read the #old-rules and #more-resources
crystal summit
Luos going ham today with his hammer
west sonnet
carmine siren
@plucky hatch Don't message every channel asking for help. Pick one channel that your question best fits in and ask your question there.
carmine siren
That doesn't give you the right to break the rules
plucky hatch
okay sry
nova tartan
Also you will not get help with a generic "I need help"
You should ask specific questions.
"I need help with X, I tried Y and it doesn't work"
quiet prawn
Gentlemen.
I am looking for people that are interested in a project.
Said project will be a remake of the tie-in of the 2006 animated film "Cars".
PM me for more information.
west sonnet
Wrong channel @quiet prawn go to #looking-for-talent and read the pinned message
quiet prawn
oh sorry
vocal meadow
have a career question actioninbro?
mystic hull
Quite insightful. Care to share? 😛
west sonnet
Guess it’s one of life’s mysteries now 😜
nova tartan
If you really want help please just ask your question as specifically as possible.
lilac elk
Hey everyone, just need some quick info - or to be pointed in the right direction. How much would be the market value per character for an artist to do the following: 1. Concept a character; 2. Model and texture it; 3. Make ~5 animations for it. I know "it depends", but before I post an announcement, I'd like to know if I'm looking at USD 1000 or 100. I need "units" for my turn-based game. It's top-down, aiming at something like PathOfExile.
west sonnet
Quad digits for sure. Ultimately you need to figure out an hourly rate. Then how long it takes. For a single person to do full stack work like that -assuming you want high quality asset from scratch... it’ll take a while, even full time. Ultimately, you’ll want the potential freelancer to break their pipeline down, give you a generalized time estimate per milestone, whether they have the license to their tools, full time or are you time slotted, their hourly, whether the final product has exclusive license, etc.
vocal meadow
Yeah you definitely don't want to assume you lose the rights to your work no matter what field your in. If someone wants exclusive rights to it you should be including that in the price.
lilac elk
Thanks for your answers. It's weird why anyone would want "exclusive rights" to works. No, I don't care how much/to how many others you sell your work to...
It should always be the artist's right to do that in my humble opinion, but then again, I'm not an economist nor artist so I guess I don't "get" an opinion 😛
nova tartan
Intellectual property is carefully guarded
Like nintendo will destroy you legally if you try and use Mario
Same with disney
People trying to build brands don't want others to damage it through using their characters
also you can sell the rights to use these characters because they have advertising power
like "This fighting game has cloud strife" will get people to look at it and has large value
vocal meadow
People will try to get you to sign away the rights in an nda or by agreeing to arbitration if not literal agreement of rights and ownership. But yeah, some of the most famous paintings in the world were paid works, fixed for a client to own.
lilac elk
Either way, I get it. I am currently making my own chars and takes me about 10-12 hours/char (NOT an artist). I sculpt them, retopo, texture, skin them (fast) and I have anims for most of them...My "artist" works worse than me since he's not technical at all, computer skills amass to not knowing how to install a blender plugin and I just kind of "had enough" of doing artist work. He gets better ideas and then he lacks technical knowledge to make things 😦
Aaaand he's slow...And by that I really mean slow.
I was hoping I could get some units to be made by others especially since I don't care much about "quality". I'm texturing in 1024 so yea...
Anyway, just blowing off some steam here I guess, thanks for the answers. Much appreciated 🙂
west sonnet
If you already got a base mesh and animations to retarget to. It’ll be significantly cheaper.
bronze dew
Should be a separate section I feel
west sonnet
#looking-for-collaboration
west sonnet
Exactly
plucky hatch
so?
tidal moth
missed opportunity for a #looking-for-group channel
patent mountain
just got offered a unreal developer
contract position
at a game studio
and they are asking me for my hourly rate
i dont even know what to ask
it would be c++ and BP work
mystic hull
first job?
patent mountain
yes pretty much, all my previous work has been freelance
tidal moth
where is the company located?
tidal moth
I mean country would have been sufficient
mystic hull
If it's local then just ask your normal rate, give or take your freelance premium
patent mountain
its a 9 month contract, with option to be hired tho
so i dont want to oversell myself, nor undersell
mystic hull
the struggle ;-;
patent mountain
haha
tidal moth
60k/12/22/8
patent mountain
i understood the 60k, what are the other numbers
tidal moth
60k is a number I just pulled out of my behind
but basically taking yearly into hourly
12 months / 22 days per month / 8 hours per day
idk what developer salaries are in florida in particular, so worst case I'm a ballpark or two away
tidal moth
look at glassdoor perhaps
patent mountain
im thinking of asking for 40$ an hour, and if they say no i can do 30$ an hour at least
tidal moth
$40 is around 84k, just saying
patent mountain
yeah i saw the calculator website for that https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/convert-hourly-to-salary?skn=#results
its just
there arent many unreal engine developers
in my area
central florida
so i imagine they need me, just as much as i need them
tidal moth
honestly sounds high, but it's your call
maybe we can call in @vocal meadow for some meaningful advice
vocal meadow
I'm not sure of what that position goes for hourly. Would just warn you that they likely are going to expect you to bill for 40 hours no matter how much you request -- so you might want to get that clarified with them before figuring out a number.
Should also consider who owns the rights of work you do. Example: Famous painters will do work on consignment regularly where they create a piece for a client. The client owns the piece but the artist retains the right to reproduce it. So stuff like that you'll want clarified. You don't want there to be guess work involved with that sort of thing.
tidal moth
I'd expect a lot of this to be covered by contract
vocal meadow
You'd be surprised
tidal moth
well, yes and no
vocal meadow
when its not covered by the contract, its up to the courts. The laws favor the company
tidal moth
I can imagine
vocal meadow
Especially if they hand you things with language of employee and contractor on seperate pages
you are broadening their vocabulary of ways to put you into different boxes when you sign such things
tidal moth
what would be a good entry level dev salary though
vocal meadow
Laws for employees are different than laws for independent contractors, so if they can say "well they expected to be treated like an employee the whole time" they will when you seek rights, and when you complain about benefits not existing its because you thought you were a contractor and not an employee.
So sometimes the positioning of something not in the contract is still there and handled for
Idk tbh. It's been a long while since I've contracted.
patent mountain
Its a lot of good food for thought tho
vocal meadow
yah, treat every page you have to sign as its own seperate agreement. because that is the purpose (of all those signature lines)
west sonnet
The joys of the endless chain of "this does not apply to below/above"
vocal meadow
Mhm, you agree to it all unless its irrelevant to the other thing
west sonnet
I've found many agreements will nullify the first page
In hopes that you don't read the first page
vocal meadow
Yikes
"But the first page didn't matter they said." "But you signed it anyways?" lol (yeah, read everything)
Definitely want to notice that sort of thing. If you ask them to reword things and they act like its written in stone, this is not a good sign.
patent mountain
thanks everybody... working on some code samples now, picking the extra pretty ones
daring parrot
keep in mind t a x e s when setting your rates
patent mountain
i forgot about that entirely
6.2%
and it seems like its best to have a LLC with s-corp election
so you dont get taxed twice
west sonnet
This preset calculates with US taxes, but can still give you a general idea to what you need to keep in mind when determining your rates. Obviously you need to exclude some things, for the employer will provide some benefits. I.e insurance packages, 401k (you still need to have several retirement plans running however), supples, etc.
Freelance rate calculator
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PMmlXqU9b-abEHy9nlh3FMcCwMktWy7R7sZ1nJ5rscQ/htmlview#gid=0
merry sequoia
4 hours a day?
west sonnet
The ultimate lazy artist
nova tartan
That would be an average, because as freelance you do not have consistent work
You have to work to find work
unless you're super well connected and sought after etc then you might have a near infinite backlog but I imagine that's an exceptionally rare case
flat gazelle
Not to mention all the non productive work you need to do. Taxes, marketing, sales, IT and so on
west sonnet
That is included in the calculator Glad 😜
nova tartan
You should have an accountant if you are freelance btw
My sister works freelance and thought she didn't need it
Turns out for the 300$ accounting fee or whatever she saved like 5 grand
west sonnet
I suspect that’s why the example stated 4 hours per day. The other 4 hours is trying to line up the next gig.
tidal moth
giving a high fee perhaps also incentivizes employers to make employees a permanent staple of the workforce
west sonnet
Bigger issue is that it doesn’t seem to account for write offs and other taxes. At least it’s a starting point for a broad ballpark figure. You definitely want to invest in actual financial management systems at the end of the day.
tidal moth
the beginning of an enterprise
shadow ether
Hey guys, just wanted to ask, where do I post lfw to be able to post in the looking for work section?
tidal moth
shadow ether
Where do I locate the Unreal bot to DM ?
vocal meadow
any job post there is posted by the bot. dm it
west sonnet
shadow ether
Nice thanks guys!
blazing talon
Hey, can any (remote) programmer share his/her experience working remotely as a UE4 C++ programmer? I am curious to know how easy it is for an experienced person with good CV/portfolio to find remote jobs, how stable is the work, any complaints about the market, etc? And if possible the market hourly compensation range (I'd expect 20$ hr junior to 50$ hr senior).
mystic hull
It's not easy to find jobs that's for sure
as for my current experience, it's great
one previous experience (wasn't game dev) was HORRIBLE, clients legit abused me
Pay highly depends on who you work for and where you live
That is to say, I have no idea how good my CV is 
Working in games in general is a lot harder, lower pay & generally more work. I love it though.
blazing talon
Indeed, that has been my experience as well, although I have mainly worked as a Unity dev. But I struggle to find exciting PC / Console projects to work for, most of the jobs are mobile, so I was thinking of going good ol' UE, since I have a bit of UE experience and C++ background. Seems like working conditions are the same across the engines, just matter of luck and pay is around the same too I guess. Still not sure how easy it is to find exciting projects on PC. Surely a lot higher chances.
mystic hull
Well, UE4 definitely warrants more than unity, not for anything more than the cheer amount of saturation unity has
Everyone and their mothers work as a "Unity dev" nowadays
And the C++ background surely helps more than C# when it comes to the more specialized roles
I wanted to get my UE4 portfolio running for a while until my work-rig died 😅
I would agree on the luck part though, from my personal experience, it has been largely based on just that.
Still though a lot of the people here could probably give much more insight than I could 😛 so I'd wait a little
blazing talon
@mystic hull Where / How did you find the job though ,if you dont mind me asking. I know the server has paid jobs posted regularly, just want your experience.
mystic hull
It's a unity job, and through one of my contacts from a freelancing platform
more luck than anything really
pastel estuary
lol, 50 hour for a senior. thats rookie numbers
hybrid phoenix
My experience is that getting high-paying jobs takes more effort and build-up
In your first month freelancing, you may be able to find enough low-paying jobs to stay busy, whereas you can barely find a day's worth of well-paid work
That obviously complicates matters, because you need to make money
But if you continue to only do the well-paid jobs, not investing in cheap-as-heck clients, you'll eventually end up with a large network of people who are willing to pay you properly
It'll take longer to build your network, because it's harder to find these people, but in the long term you'll be in a significantly better position
flat gazelle
Yeah, I hope that 50 example was just a random number as that's low for art, nevermind coding
hybrid phoenix
I'm now doing €50/h for tech-art, and simply rejecting everything that doesn't pay that
flat gazelle
When you start out, that's fine but it was listed as a senior rate
mystic hull
I was interested in where you guys find your freelance work 🤔 Connections still?
flat gazelle
I don't freelance any more, but yes.
hybrid phoenix
The marketplaces generally largely get you frustrating customers who aren't willing to pay what the service is actually worth
merry sequoia
$50 an hour is pretty good when you are competing with MUCH cheaper artists in China, India, etc.
Unfortunately for artists freelance is getting harder in that respect. Part of why I’m transitioning to programming and design to expand my portfolio to get a studio job
hybrid phoenix
Yeah the tech side of the tech-art title is the reason I can charge what I charge
merry sequoia
That was sorta my idea. Art is a crowded field especially character art my focus
If I can get some decent tech knowledge I should be more marketable
blazing talon
Well here I am having trouble finding good projects as a senior unity dev even for $30/hr. I mean, dont get me wrong, finding mobile and other stuff is easy, I could probably build portoflio for that and ask even more, but Im looking for PC/console projects which I have no luck in as a unity dev, altho I do have a fair amount of projects and more than 5 years of experience at this point.
My assumption was that unless you got some kind of AAA title under your belt you will have fat chance of asking more than 50/hr.
And honestly, those numbers vary so much, in job postings all I see is 20-30 maximum, in dicussions and or for-hire posts 30 seems to be the norm as well. Than some people like you guys once in a while jump in and say 50 is laughable for a senior and I dont know where those numbers coming from or where do you find those clients. Are we talking remote? What kind of prerequisites are there for those jobs? Is it UE C++ expert specific? @pastel estuary
nova tartan
For a software dev, 50 is laughable because of what your earning power is if you work anywhere else
If you have 5+ years experience and are good, and live in a low-medium cost of living area(not california or new york etc), you are probably starting negotiations at 100k or more for a full time position, which is about 50$ an hour.
Contract workers ask for even more, generally quite a bit more hourly pay because they have to cover all expenses themselves.
Basically don't let "working for video games" kill your earning power that much
blazing talon
What if I'm in Eastern Europe? haha
nova tartan
Then a north american perspective and numbers won't be as useful to you
blazing talon
I have had freelance contracts from USA though
and probably clean income for me with 30/hr is more than someone living in low-medium cost of living area in USA with 50/hr
blazing talon
Checked just now, in the last week there were 3 people who were looking for a full time unit dev role for 10-15$ hr LOL.
pastel estuary
thats up to them, I dont get out of bed for any less than 60,- for long projects, more for shorter, with some variables depending on country, tax treaties between countries, how fast I need to deliver, and such
60 euros btw, not dollar
blazing talon
Yeah, Im confident those are only possible because both UE and C++ have steeper learning curve.
merry sequoia
Need to up my cpp conversion game
blazing talon
I see, would for sure like to hear some programmers out
@pastel estuary the rates you mention are gross, right?
pastel estuary
i wouldnt be surprised that high end coders can be in the 100-150 or more dollar ballpark
gross
blazing talon
I can't imagine such rates as a remote dev, unless you have AAA titles under your belt
west sonnet
You gotta pay rent 🤷♀️
pastel estuary
then broaden your imagination hehe
there is at least one here who makes double that
tidal moth
those rates do seem pretty high for games
but I'm not a programmer
earning $300/hr is what you can expect as a programming consultant for financial software institutions though
blazing talon
Well yeah
- In EU you guys have 40+ tax rates and steep rent prices, I bet I have higher clean income in here with 30/hr than you would with 60 over there.
- When you go remote the competition is worldwide, so you already have a huge disadvantage.
pastel estuary
when VR became the next booming thing, you could ask them for near exorbitant rates because they wanted to be the first on the market.
tidal moth
an aside but VR will never become the next booming thing
pastel estuary
they didnt know :p
tidal moth
fair point
blazing talon
full VR might, who knows
pastel estuary
I think once VR goes the way of streaming games to it (what all the big game companies are now focusing on) and you arent limited by your own hardware. itll become much bigger
tidal moth
but that'll be something more like a dream simulator
it's not the hardware that's the issue
blazing talon
aka Stadia VR?
pastel estuary
lol stadia
west sonnet
It’s still strapping a monitor to your face. Movement seems to be the biggest constraint
tidal moth
stuff like saccadic masking is still a massive issue
blazing talon
a shitty monitor might I add?
Also most people cant bear more than 20 min
tidal moth
and a hard problem since it's not to do with hardware
flat gazelle
30$/H as a Senior?!
What the actual F
Either, the lowest paid senior ever, or you are driving the race to the bottom and screwing everyone in your field.
gentle chasm
movement would be less a constraint with hardware and software providing proper framerate
and hardware without cables
west sonnet
Welcome Glad, to disillusion
gentle chasm
walking in the first Oculus Dev kit with these huge pixels made me terribly sick, but I can stand current kits somehow 😉
tidal moth
@gentle chasm no amount of hardware can fix the human eye
flat gazelle
Maybe we have different frames of what constitutes a senior
gentle chasm
it's not about an eye, actually 😛
tidal moth
it is though
gentle chasm
this our sense of locomotion and balance that make us sick
west sonnet
tidal moth
yeah balance is governed by 2 things: visual balance of eyes, and the balance organ in the ear
in particular for visual balance the offset durations between saccades is what makes people sick when for instance looking through a first person camera
hence why saccadic masking is a hard problem in VR
blazing talon
@flat gazelle maybe, I will just mention that I have not failed a senior role interview for a unity dev role and before you say its because of my low rates - I never mention my rates at the start, I leave it for final negotiations when the interviews are done withh
pastel estuary
generally if they agree to your rate fast, you undersell yourself :p
blazing talon
well duh
flat gazelle
I'd say I'm a senior something like that, and the lowest I've been negotiated down to is 65, but that was for a fulltime long project.
not programmer
tidal moth
so many factors contribute to salary though, role being key as well
blazing talon
I have always known that senior programmers are making more than artists unless its some kind of art director etc
tidal moth
but I have no experience freelancing
west sonnet
30 is a junior artist
blazing talon
Well seems likek the disparity is betwween unity programmers and unreal programmers
unity has a faaar lower entry point and C# is far easier comparde to C++
flat gazelle
I charge the same whichever engine I work in
ashen lynx
There isn't really any disparity. Unity and Unreal are tools, not a skill.
flat gazelle
^
west sonnet
Likewise
blazing talon
Okay, genuine question
Why do I find only 40-60k job postings all over the internet then?
annual, of course
west sonnet
Location location location
flat gazelle
No clue.
blazing talon
I am looking remote
west sonnet
Location of studio
blazing talon
If I ever laid my eyes on the rates you suggest, i would obviously charge more, but I had the feeling the game dev is capped at 90k
which is wayyy lower what you guys implied with 150 hourly rates
tidal moth
freelance or salaried?
flat gazelle
freelance
blazing talon
Yeah something is def wrong with my job hunting.
Either you are all talking on-site roles or its dependent on the engine. I have no other clues.
flat gazelle
Less salaried, but then again, salaried gives a lot more benefits that outweigh it.
I freelanced both as remote and on site
blazing talon
I am talking about remote full time
tidal moth
so, salaried then
blazing talon
There is also a huge disparity between task based work that artists are usually hired for and full time.
Yup
flat gazelle
Well that's a whole different beast. I thought we were discussing freelance rates.
Disregard everything I said 😛
blazing talon
yeah its fine since you came in the middle of dicussion
That's exactly why I quoted annual salary also.
flat gazelle
That's trickier to give an opinion on as all the surrounding benefits and so on matter so much
blazing talon
for me only the project matters, as long as the baseline of professionalism is kept
west sonnet
Thought living mattered 😜
flat gazelle
Projects come and go
blazing talon
How does living account in job benefis?
flat gazelle
some are good, some are not
blazing talon
Well thats more to luck though, no?
flat gazelle
Yeah, that's why it doesn't matter much to me
I've made some really good games, and some really bad ones. And the correlation between which ones were enjoyable to work on is a mystery
blazing talon
yeah true, on the hindsight working with passionate and cool people would make me a lot more motivated to work.
Though I consider it a pipe dream at this point lol
flat gazelle
Hehe, it's possible!
tidal moth
agreed
flat gazelle
I'm at the point in my career where I can choose where I work based on the people and culture
blazing talon
I have been seriously considering relocation for some time, its that hard for me to find a cool remote project.
merry sequoia
So I am a capable 3D character artist that has worked freelance/commission/vendor for a while and I have a solid understanding of blueprints / general understanding of UE4 in general + can program in cpp just havent had much experience with it in UE4 yet so obviously will need to spend time with that.
Realistically whats my best path forward applying for studio positions and such? I would prefer to get into the tech side but dont have a degree in CS like most. I have been told to maybe look at tech artist but I assume thats not just a position I can apply for with little resume.
blazing talon
So now I am also considering dropping all my knowledge of best practices etc in Unity and migrating fully to UE4.
flat gazelle
Sure you can
tidal moth
@blazing talon do it, having an actual team with real people and the ability to be social matters so much
flat gazelle
Junior tech artists are needed
blazing talon
@merry sequoia you can be a tech artist
merry sequoia
RIght but how can I show my qualification beyond "Heres some pretty art ive made, and I promise I understand blueprinting and UE4 well"
blazing talon
You dont need CS degree to be good with shaders. Just having good fucking math is enough
Portfolio - make something cool
tidal moth
yeah I don't think CS degrees matter for tech art just yet
flat gazelle
Make something clever
west sonnet
That’s the point of a portfolio
flat gazelle
and show it
tidal moth
you're not expected to be a full on programmer
blazing talon
CS degree is more about Data Structures / Algorihtms, theoretical knowledge etc. You dont give a shit about those as a technical artist
ashen lynx
Make something that can be used to speed up others making something, which was never made before.
blazing talon
Unless its a cs degree with really big emphasize on graphics
merry sequoia
Right but my issue is having been a 3D character artist is im not really sure what to show and make in general. Like having never worked on the studio side im just unaware of things to make besides just like a full on game lol
ashen lynx
Shiny showoff thingy in tech art is just tip of the iceberg.
tidal moth
in which case you become a render god
blazing talon
@merry sequoia do you ahve any 'dream' jobs in your local area?
tidal moth
@merry sequoia workflow improvements, pipeline improvements
merry sequoia
Im in TX currently so the studios are a little more limited. I would have no issue relocating :p
blazing talon
@ashen lynx you can really ask that of someone whho is just starting off, you need a good understanding of workflows etc in the industry
@merry sequoia find a studio you would absolutely love to work at, lookk at their last games, find an effect or something alike inside their game - replicate it
it will make the application process so much smoother if you can talk about how you copied their work and what you did, was your version better or worse (its a tricky question, its all about tradeoffs)
merry sequoia
@tidal moth Like I understand the theory behind those improvements but not having ever worked in studios I dont know how to demo that.
@blazing talon Like particle / lighting effects?
blazing talon
@merry sequoia no, like lighting, shadows, etc
tidal moth
@merry sequoia well for instance the foliage tool in UE4 is a good example of something that could have been a tech art task to make
blazing talon
swaying grass - yeah
merry sequoia
Ok so like im working on a road system in my game. It connects static mesh junctions /corners / T's with spline
blazing talon
there are Witcher 3 and GTA 5 graphics breakdown articles, go look at it
flat gazelle
That's one end of tech art. It's a wide role
merry sequoia
that fits in tech artist stuff?
tidal moth
yep
blazing talon
its artist stuff but not technical artist / graphics engineer
unless you programmed it to automatically work kfor any asset
tidal moth
that's kind of the point
you create something that artists can use to populate the world with
ashen lynx
Tasks do vary greatly. Scope what areas you do not like and steer away. I did find it easier than focusing on what you enjoy.
west sonnet
Says the oceanman, heed his words
merry sequoia
My issue is converting the knowledge I have to marketability and scoping it to job titles. I like the art stuff but I also like the design / programming / AI and the constant puzzle aspect
flat gazelle
Follow the fun
merry sequoia
-most- of it is fun lol
flat gazelle
Studio work is usually more specialized.
blazing talon
well you will have endless opportunities to take you career towards
flat gazelle
A wide role like that is more common in indie
blazing talon
start somwhere
merry sequoia
Aye Glad, I just dont have the experience to narrow it more. Tech Art seems to be the most fitting simply because it combines so many aspects.
tidal moth
if you previously enjoyed character art then perhaps looking into tools that make character art easier to work with might be a good way to start
ashen lynx
I've realized that rigging and tooling, associated with it, is definitely not mine for life. Sad part, that it was a result of failed contract work and as a result I wish I probed that a bit earlier before committing.
flat gazelle
A somewhat common way in for junior tech artists seems to be shaders
Building really advanced, cheap stuff is a valuable skill
blazing talon
Tech artist should know HLSL / GLSL instead of only node based shaders. Although I do not have that much experience in UE4 shaders
pastel estuary
yesterday I made a 6500 instruction shader (both pixel and vert) because I could.
blazing talon
So through a node graph
merry sequoia
I havent spent much time in shaders and such yet, I suppose I should do some work there after finishing my road/spline system.
west sonnet
How many switches did you put in there 😜
pastel estuary
4, but that was unrelated.
pastel estuary
saying nodebased isnt real shaders is like saying blueprint isnt coding
blazing talon
yup
exactly
That last one 'real shaders' was me memeing tbh
But I do not consider blueprint to be coding, altho it is my personal opinion
pastel estuary
no comment :p
west sonnet
Usually said when never use bp 😜
merry sequoia
I feel like coding knowledge helped me pick up blueprinting easier.
flat gazelle
If you use anything higher than assembly, you are basically an artist.
Write everything yourself, use no tools.
tidal moth
blueprint is coding
blazing talon
LOL Glad, yeah, that shader was not meant for custom lighting
tidal moth
it's the same thing you do, with the exact same principles
it just has a fisher price aesthetic to it
and an expensive VM
vocal meadow
Woo this is great news glad
blazing talon
@flat gazelle Why not start with silicon while we are at it?
tidal moth
if you're not coding using electrical resistors then what are you doing
flat gazelle
Nah, that'd be unreasonable. Assembly is where I draw my own arbitrary line
blazing talon
You just need GaAs, Si and SiO2 for basic CMOS transistor if Im not mistaken
my nanoelectronics is abit rusty
tidal moth
using anything beyond a NAND gate is superfluous
vernal wolf
I find that claiming blueprints aren't coding is a great way to tank your interview, #career-chat
blazing talon
Well yeah I see I insulted some people with my careless statements, lol
I do prefer well structured C++ code over blueprints. So much easier to understand stuff. Although I do see the utility of blueprints as high-level abstractions exposed to level designers / artists / or just for your own convenience as a programmer.
But thats not coding, thats tooling
vernal wolf
I'd much rather work with blueprints which are treated as programming than those treated like just a tool; differences stack up greatly over time
tidal moth
I just have a hard time understanding how they would not be programming
are you not creating instructions in the end?
vernal wolf
to some they are a quick and 'irrelevant' means to an end
to others they're an integral part of the engine
vocal meadow
Yeah your understanding here is off armmah. While you can redefine meaning of things by personal beliefs or gut feels, it won’t amount to a hill of beans
blazing talon
Well okay, let me ask you a question then @vernal wolf
How much of the codebase should be clean C++ and how much blueprints, just a rough parts. I am talking about a serious complex game here, where each milisecond of runtime matters.
50 - 50 ?
vernal wolf
A serious complex game where each millisecond matters is not a game that is shipped
merry sequoia
My OCD and artist background don’t allow for spaghetti nodes Allar. Also because I like to be able to read it when I inevitably forget how I did something
vernal wolf
If you're optimizing your code instead of moving forward you're either a solo/indie dev team or don't plan to meet deadlines
merry sequoia
I see some blueprints and don’t understand how people can be so crazy with their nodes
blazing talon
you've got 16 miliseconds to you available per frame to do everything - rendering, pathfinding, AI, etc etc
how does it not matter and not shipped game?
vernal wolf
Yeah, and when you exceed it you then fix it