Sketchfab can also work
#career-chat
latent dragon
nova tartan
I would consider a video or exe to be similar to a website with an intro page
Just let me get to the content
A really well made video could sell you I guess
But it would have to be like
a trailer that gets them excited to meet you
Can you catch their interest in less than 3 seconds?
brittle rune
totally agree, when looking for potential employee we are usually see if he is fine for the job in first 5 seconds, but thats modelling, I dont know what aspects are important for level designers or level artists
then if we think that person is good enough, we dig into details, like what he utilized in his portfolio, what potential skills can you expect, which software they use etc
latent dragon
Thanks for the feedback!
supple timber
is it 100% necessary to get a university degree ?
west sonnet
No
supple timber
so what should i do without a uni degree ? @west sonnet
vocal meadow
How much do you know with development already kostaxr?
What occupation are you looking at doing?
vocal meadow
Goal would be working with a big company or doing something on your own?
supple timber
idk yet
vocal meadow
Would recommend honing skills, make something cool but don't feel like you need to make an entire game for purposes of resume
west sonnet
Studios don't care about a piece of paper. They need someone who can walk the talk.
Point is, having a degree doesn't mean you're qualified. Studios are well aware of this. You do however, need to have the knowledge for your discipline. If you think university can provide the academic resources, then by all means. Just know that paper doesn't mean job. It's your comprehension, knowledge base, ability to work in a multidiscipline environment, networking, amoung other things that will.
tidal moth
for programming as far as I know degrees are better to seek out
supple timber
i just feel tired studying to get into uni without actually doing or studying programming
tidal moth
it doesn't mean you're qualified, but it means you've passed courses that are integral to the type of thing you'll be doing
are you not studying programming?
ah I see you're still in high school
west sonnet
yeah, been in that shoe kostaxr
west sonnet
enjoy 2 years of unrelated courses 😛
supple timber
4
west sonnet
4? At least half your credits should be going into the discipline
I'm assuming bachelor though
tidal moth
some unis have 4 yr bachelors
generally as long as it adds to what, 180 ECTS it's however you wanna take it
west sonnet
bachelors are minimum of 4 years
west sonnet
Half the degree requires liberal arts crap
tidal moth
I don't know that years have so much to say in comparison to the ECTS though
wait what kind of bachelor though
BA?
west sonnet
yes
west sonnet
Programming? Time to take a biology course.
tidal moth
I'll never understand that
west sonnet
💸
tidal moth
the most "liberal" course I did was a course on level design
mystic hull
Academic Education is too mainstream tbh
tidal moth
yes I too prefer cult indoctrination
mystic hull
The amount of money you pay is rarely worth the education you get
at least from my experience 🤷♂️
I do want to get a degree at some point, just a really hard trade-off
between getting a degree, work, and paying for the degree
mystic hull
Well, in my perfect world, I wanted to get a Bachelor -> Masters in CS
plucky hatch
You can achieve any goal with out college, but that degree will give you more opportunities. Even with a degree, you need to teach yourself programming and get yourself a job.
west sonnet
I unfortunately knew more than what master's degree could offer, much less a bachelors. At least I'm not drowning in student loans
west sonnet
That being said. A CS degree is more worthwhile. For outside the game industry especially
tidal moth
I did software development, which was compared to CS a little lighter on hard code technique and more focused on teamwork and elegant code practice
software architecture as well
west sonnet
and you're going to need certificates anyway. But at least that's a $500 per test bullet to bit at least
west sonnet
probably
supple timber
btw uni is free
west sonnet
then go to uni
supple timber
but i still need to pass the exams tho
tidal moth
where do you live @supple timber
supple timber
Greece
mystic hull
lucky D:
tidal moth
you say that but you kicked Alexander out :p
west sonnet
The names elude me but they're along the lines of security protocols
tidal moth
I'll be honest I've never heard of them
but it may be more of a SAP thing
which is its own little cult
west sonnet
common in the government sector, software architects, and advance software engineering
tidal moth
oh lol
I found some, it's just a shorthand way of saying "I have worked with this API/IDE before"
so general modern consensus seems to be "don't bother"
supple timber
so what do i do?
ashen lynx
Consider not aiming for gamedev as your main career.
supple timber
why?
tidal moth
try for uni
more options
figure out whatever else during or after uni
you're still young
you have time
west sonnet
CompTIA was the name
jolly charm
Regular software engineering probably more secure, flexible, and lucrative
Do games after or in the side. I figured that much during college.
west sonnet
Keyword there is more lucrative
jolly charm
Yeah 120+ after 6-7 years
supple timber
i do only want to do game dev
jolly charm
Be lucky as an entry game Dev if you remain on the team after the project ship's
Plus you'll need seed money for a solid game
vocal meadow
for what its worth, people have always thought gaming would tank. And it somewhat has thanks to the appstore and stuff
tidal moth
games are pyramid schemes
west sonnet
Game dev isn’t a good career. Only the crazy do and love it😜
tidal moth
they rope you into it and then from that point on you can only ever get into more games
jolly charm
I always thought it was silly to just go straight after your dream job unless you're rich and privileged
If you're not play it smart, get comfortable, then work on your dreams
west sonnet
Be smart or yolo it
tidal moth
also consider what role you really want to do
I did programming in uni and still ended up a designer
but to be fair there's a lot of overlap
supple timber
I love working on games
lilac walrus
if you're still in school, I doubt you know what you love working on yet
but also, living in Greece, your industry options are going to be pretty limited
supple timber
I am not actually in school
lilac walrus
it's usually better to study something generic, then migrate into a field related to said generic that you enjoyed
ashen lynx
You thinking that you are going to love what you'd be doing working in gamedev is just an assumption, not supported by anything.
vocal meadow
Will say if you stick with it kostaxr you'll likely get better.
Trying to associate that to a living is hard.
lilac walrus
but game dev is a tough racket, you earn peanuts, have to live in expensive cities, and you end up working pretty long hours, probably on a game you'd never even consider playing yourself
but hey, someone has to make 6 Barbie Horse Adventure spinoffs every year
vocal meadow
barbie horse adventure team is likely highest tier
supple timber
I actually have been experimenting for a couple of years with game dev
Since i think 2014
west sonnet
Not trying to dissuade you. We just want you to make a wise decision. It’s going to be a long hard road if you pick this route. As everyone here has and currently are
If you’re steadfast in it. I welcome you fellow yolo brother/sister
lilac walrus
aye - even if you went to one of the best universities and did your 4 year Bachelors in games - you most likely would still have a couple of years of dedicated self-study and portfolio work before you get your first industry gig
it's a tough industry to get into
engineering tends to be the easiest track because it shares a lot in common with normal software engineering and it's highly tangible - art these days, the standards are so high for entry-level it's nuts
lilac walrus
haha, classic
vocal meadow
yolo is probably the best advice if you don't see yourself doing anything but games kostaxr.
would highly recommend not hanging things on projects that you need though. its a common mistake to put tons of effort towards a portfolio piece.
Get side tracked thinking you can make money off a market where its really difficult to get any visiblility
supple timber
What about getting into a big studio?
tidal moth
graduate assistant programmes exist
vocal meadow
well by your answer "Idk yet" I figure that means your not really looking forward to working with a team haha
but yeah, I don't have much advice on that front. Haven't worked for a big studio
tidal moth
really depends on the studio
lilac walrus
a few studios will take graduate interns, but it's not exactly common
consider that there are thousands of graduates in Europe and probably less than a hundred interships available
mystic storm
@supple timber knowing someone who works there definitely helps, some studios offer internships, otherwise you can try to get on as QA or FPA and build a raport in the studio
lilac walrus
the other problem with internships is actually affording to be able to do it, some studios offer them unpaid only :/
supple timber
I dont know anyone
vocal meadow
hiss game meetups lol
tidal moth
best case is probably ubisoft romania for your location
supple timber
Yeah i dont money to travel there
west sonnet
one of the reality you're going to have to acknowledge. Accept tiny studios or be prepared to move to other countries
west sonnet
that's where a degree would actually help 😛
vocal meadow
you might prefer small studios anyways kostaxr
supple timber
Well actually after i finish uni i wont be able to get a job right away
Since we have mandatory military service
vocal meadow
imagine someone telling you exactly how to get things done
lilac walrus
I've lived and worked in Guildford, Newcastle, Christchurch, Manchester, Munich, Brno, and Hamburg thus far - welcome to working in games 😂
tidal moth
big studios are actually really good for learning a bunch fast
vocal meadow
you could just start applying places and yolo it too, its not illegal
tidal moth
yeah I've been around most of Yurop as well
supple timber
That damn millitary service wont exactly help...
west sonnet
uni is free for them
supple timber
Sigh
west sonnet
so I say why the hell not
lilac walrus
yeah, I'd take the free uni any day
it's £9000 a year in the UK by comparison
never underestimate the value of a free education
tidal moth
agreed
supple timber
I have to pass thw exams to get in tho
west sonnet
still worth
tidal moth
well that's on you
supple timber
And they are not easy at all
tidal moth
more than anything it's a test of tenacity
lilac walrus
if you can't be arsed to put the work in to finish the exams, you have ZERO hope of working in games
vocal meadow
would highly recommend the most nauseating and boring cs courses. game industry is low in this dept.
tidal moth
you gotta work hard
west sonnet
Shoot. forgot about swagger dolphin
vocal meadow
I got it 👍
tidal moth
swolephin?
vocal meadow
dolpwagger
supple timber
Exams are too much pressure
lilac walrus
then working in games is absolutely not for you
because I can assure you, there's always a lot of pressure to perform
vocal meadow
unfortunately, yeah eating pressure for breakfast is a thing
lilac walrus
short deadlines, difficult problems, long hours, and fraying tempers
west sonnet
*caffeine for blood
mystic hull
Not to mention, a really, really hard life if you want to go indie
vocal meadow
wheatgrass
tidal moth
understatement of the year @mystic hull
lilac walrus
oh yeah, let's not even forget the crushing constant financial pressure if you're not in one of the rarer, stable, decently paying positions
YAY STRESS
vocal meadow
a trick to make it easier on yourself with self publishing is to avoid that nonsense of a term
mystic hull
😢
supple timber
But like working on something i love even under pressure is another thing from studying maths,economics and learning how to write essays all the time
lilac walrus
you're not going to be working on something you love
and yeah, maths & writing is way up there in the needed skills
west sonnet
you need the ability to learn to love what you work on
lilac walrus
maths is maths
vocal meadow
mystic hull
I've always loved math
supple timber
Its what they learn in the 2nd year of harvard
mystic hull
You need to love math and/or physics (at least partially) in order ot not get bored in games
LOTS of math
;-;
To the point where I wish I paid more attention in HS
vocal meadow
just think of math as the understanding of people on how things worked before tehy had games to make
west sonnet
(too tempting)
https://youtu.be/3QtRK7Y2pPU
supple timber
This is really damn exhausting tho
tidal moth
that's life
mystic hull
^
tidal moth
I wish I could say it gets better, but really it's just that as you get older, you get better at managing it
vocal meadow
a wise person once told me, sometimes you must lift the toilet lid first.
there are things you have to get used to doing
with programming its generally math and documentation reading
tidal moth
and writing
lilac walrus
aye, some disciplines can be pretty heavy on the writing
west sonnet
Think you’re missing a few words there pat 😂
tidal moth
and dear lord is writing documentation a skill that needs to be valued more highly
mystic hull
Im suffering with the Agones docs right now
vocal meadow
I would read code before docs any day
mystic hull
Some codes are unreadable 🤷♂️
vocal meadow
you can get good at reading that code too
west sonnet
“Put the tree in the lime and swirl it all down”
tidal moth
just wait until code archeology becomes a thing
vocal meadow
what documentation is that High Tide? lol
I hope code archeology is never a thing. Copyright office doesn't even treat code different from books.
vocal meadow
tidal moth
Everything that is there is there for a reason, and there are 3 possible reasons:
It used to need to be there but no longer does
It never needed to be there and the person that wrote the code had no clue
It STILL needs to be there and YOU have no clue
vocal meadow
functionality over pretty combinations of letters, digits and punctuation
all true though haha
tidal moth
write an entire engine without line breaks
vocal meadow
for me its more about if you see a peice of code that was written badly to facilitate its reading
tidal moth
makes sense
vocal meadow
all paths must go through here because it easy to think all paths go through here etc.
tidal moth
but the mantra goes make it work, make it neat, make it fast
but yes I get what you're saying
vocal meadow
i get what you mean too.
flat gazelle
I do software archeology quite a bit. It feels like discovering that there was a world here before.
Inherited, undocumented content...
Wtf where they thinking here it makes no sense!
Unless...
Oh
Oooh Omg they were clever as hell!
vocal meadow
Was it C?
flat gazelle
Graphs
vocal meadow
Ahh gotcha. Cool. Reading C is clever too, such a limited amount of built in things
fickle hatch
I do technical archaeology
It’s really fun. Mostly 50-70 year old stuff. Can’t wait till software is included, though the threshold for deeper archaeology (about two-three generations or 40-60 years) just passed for early computing
craggy nacelle
pretty sure people are already doing software archeology, for example trying to find copies of lost games
daring parrot
I don't know why your timelines start so far in the past, this morning I was doing software archaeology on some code I had written yesterday. Trying to decipher the culture and environment that led to it being so shit 
tacit siren
sounds more like an autopsy
graceful oyster
Does anyone have any suggestions on a good free portfolio website? Google is saying wix.com is the best but I'm curious what everyone here actually uses
green oyster
Artstation
mystic hull
Is it viable to include both my gitlab and github in my CV? They're pretty much incompatible, I use gitlab obligatory for work, but github for the open-source & contributions etc
junior lark
@graceful oyster Depends what kind of portfolio youre looking to make. For my game design portfolio I use wix because its relatively easy to use and you can get your website exactly how you want it. For an artbased portfolio, definitely use artstation though. A lot of programmers I know have a shell on wix, squarespace, or wordpress that links to their github
graceful oyster
Thanks @junior lark For the moment I guess I'm just showcasing screen shots of level design so it sounds like artstation is the go-to for now
junior lark
Definitely the simplest as far as just needing to upload your work. For level design, I definitely suggest talking about your process and having an overview of the game with the screenshots so that and recruiters know what theyre looking at
graceful oyster
thank you!
tidal moth
generally for level design screenshots work, but videos of a player playing through your level give a much better idea
but other than that, include process and layouts as much as possible
you should be able to frame your intent for the entire level as succinctly as possible as well
graceful oyster
Would anyone possibly be willing to link me their portfolio so I can have a better Idea at what a professional game dev portfolio looks like?
west sonnet
Go look at the credit of your favourite game and punch in a name here https://www.artstation.com
vernal wolf
^ayyyyyyyy
placid folio
hey human beings
vocal meadow
no art station allar?
wispy spoke
holy damn @vernal wolf I just hovered over your avatar, this is incredible
vernal wolf
I do have an allarstation
I've got a whole 11 likes
wait those are things I've liked
lmao
jolly charm
How have people here been getting along with building indie Dev teams? Namely in America.
I already have a career as a software engineer, but wanna to get into games as a personal venture. Has anyone here has success with indie startups?
west sonnet
With a lot of luck, stubbornness, and connections
nova tartan
a lot of work
a loooooooot of work
fickle hatch
@jolly charm even for a simple project it's gonna be insane levels of stress and responsibility unlike anything else
mystic hull
What I'll add is that you're also likely to fail a lot before you make any success
I'm certainly still at the failing part 😄
dim osprey
the best question is, how to get experience, if noone gives you a job to earn it. But to work in a company you need Experience, 👌 xD
daring parrot
connections
bronze dew
its all about connections
dim osprey
im working my ass off, but have no chance, cause no connections
west sonnet
Rather essential that you have a more than proficient communication and collaborative skill with others in an industry that consist of multi discipline collaborative environments.
vocal meadow
@jolly charm is important to make something you/your team think needs making as well. The grind of trying to put something out trendy is what gets most people into trouble with visibility. App stores don't want to knock competing, better selling match 3 puzzle games off the shelve to give you a fair chance.
digital gate
@dim osprey So this isn't true. You have way more limited options, and you should strive to make connections... but it's possible to have somebody stumble on something you did and that be enough. That's just relying on chance.
green oyster
@dim osprey when I started out in 3d art I joined a few teams and did unpaid assets for a few weeks here and there - built up portfolio and a bit of workflow experience
jolly charm
Yeah thats what im facing now. Basically I get a bunch of frauds and wannabes who just wanna chat and not ever actually do any work, 80% of them have never actually even made as much as a level or beginner project.
@jolly charm is important to make something you/your team think needs making as well. The grind of trying to put something out trendy is what gets most people into trouble with visibility. App stores don't want to knock competing, better selling match 3 puzzle games off the shelve to give you a fair chance.
@vocal meadow This is valuable advice... Thanks. Im actually looking to build something pretty simple, and half the work is kinda already done because im taking much of the mechanics from another game.
green oyster
I found some established projects that had quite a bit done, so my stuff back then was added in game and tested. Just have to filter out from the bad projects
fickle hatch
I started doing UAV control systems and now I’m doing my thing with the simulators
marsh stream
Hi guys, just a question regarding what would be a better 'starting/entry position' for someone that has zero work experience [I'm excluding my Uni/side projects]. So fare I'm very interested in Economy Design and Level Design. Equally interested. Any thoughts on which path has more opportunities and/or companies are more willing give zero experience individuals such a role ?
west sonnet
Don’t quote me. Probably level design. You don’t need a large game design team -much less a specialist unless it’s a big studio- but there’s never a smaller level design and world comp team. That being said, do what you’re best at and continue to improve. You’re going to go into a metaphorical fistfight to land a job regardless which path you choose.
vocal meadow
Yeah I agree though am unfamiliar with economy design
dim osprey
@green oyster yeah I already worked on a couple of games . Mostly free projects. But no really company experience. My portfolio is decent but I'll guess it needs to be awesome to compensate the lack of connections 😅
gentle chasm
@dim osprey it doesn't need to be "awesome" and connections don't matter if you're able to prove yourself
- showing that you able to learn and solve your problems
- show at least one nice thing, either scene composed out of marketplace assets, your own assets possible to use in game, working example of source code which doesn't make elementary mistakes everywhere
- showing that you're not a selfish dick
- a bit of lack helps, especially if you don't to move far away and you have decent studio around you - but for the first job in this industry moving to other city/country could be necessary
dim osprey
i would love to move to other countrys/Citys, i would also move to the usa, Canada, if i get a job there, but i dont know, if this is possible with no visa 🤔
i think i can handel all of this points, respectively im a lovely person 😛
If you guys are curious, you can checkt out my Artstation^^
https://www.artstation.com/jariah
tidal moth
environment art is probably the hardest position to land in the current climate
but if you're in a city with a game dev scene, look up and go to their meetups
that's your best chances of getting seen
if you get an internal reference it's a lot easier to get into a bigger company like Ubisoft for instance
@marsh stream economy design doesn't exist as a role
so your best bet is level design
marsh stream
@tidal moth are you sure? Ubisoft just said they were looking for 1. Its more for F2P mobile games
@west sonnet @vocal meadow thanks for the info : ) a lot of people i have spoken to have said level design. definitely something to think about 👍
tidal moth
I have personally never heard of it being called an economy designer because it's too broad
monetization designer
is a term I've heard though
which seems to be more correctly scoped
then again every ubisoft studio is independent enough to come up with their own titles
marsh stream
@tidal moth ahh ok gotchya. Thanks for the info 🙂
tidal moth
I'm happy to be enlightened on the difference
flat gazelle
Economy Designers are needed for large games, where players are able to trade with eachother
They make sure the economy in the game doesn't get wrecked by someone farming a certain object and so on
tidal moth
isn't that directly tied to real life money?
flat gazelle
Doesn't have to be
You can still trade items even if you can't buy them with real money
tidal moth
my thinking is that if it's not, then while the role may be useful from a player experience POV it's not going to do anything for the ROI of the game
flat gazelle
Look at Eve where the economy is so big they have to counteract inflation
And sort out issues of rich players who stop playing
It's not just currency either
tidal moth
that falls under the scope of monetization as well
flat gazelle
Fair enough, I guess I'll go tell our economy designer then
"You're fired! The internet says you don't exist"
tidal moth
those were not my words
flat gazelle
Monetization affects how the players spend real money.
Economy handles how the gameworld stays fair.
tidal moth
sure, that's their primary responsibility
but it doesn't exist in isolation from the game
which seems to be the implication here
flat gazelle
You are confusing two concepts because they both they both involve some sort of currency.
In a completely unmonetized game, you can still have an economy.
In small games, the economy can be handled by other designers, but that's not feasible on large projects.
tidal moth
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that if the game isn't monetized, the economy probably isn't important enough to justify having a role on board to balance it
flat gazelle
Sure it is
tidal moth
do you have any examples of that?
west sonnet
I thought it was to handle game resources. How much does this buffed sword cost in-game currency or how much resources it takes to craft it
tidal moth
I think in broad terms they may be the same role
flat gazelle
Hightide got it
tidal moth
I've just never heard it being called an economy designer
again, because I've never seen it be separate from a game that doesn't market its economy
flat gazelle
Monetization designers would work with the economy designers, but they are quite different roles.
tidal moth
what is the distinction?
flat gazelle
Economy designers make sure the game is fun, the monetization designers make sure it generates money.
But they do that by linking some of the systems together
tidal moth
I don't think they are separate roles tbh, especially from that definition
flat gazelle
You are welcome to think that.
I think all coders are the same, but that doesn't change much.
tidal moth
a monetization designer doesn't create a strategy for monetization without first having created and worked through the economic system of said game
that is all
flat gazelle
Incorrect
Economy designers are often part of the project a lot earlier than the monetization folks
But to be honest, the economy designers are not common
and often handled by other esigners.
They have two very different goals
green oyster
I think they can be pretty different, like in monetization you have a different set of rules to make people buy, maybe stuff like rechargeable counters, share to get more coins, etc which play on other things
west sonnet
Think Skyrim or any single player rpg. Someone worked as an economy designer -perhaps not as an official title but at least the role.
flat gazelle
Yup
tidal moth
my thought is that both of them have the main goal of keeping player retention high and preventing churn, which keeps the game alive long term
flat gazelle
Isn't that the goal of all designers?
tidal moth
not necessarily?
flat gazelle
Make the game fun and keep them playing.
flat gazelle
Live ops doesn't require an economy designer.
So are the Live ops all the same then since they have the same goal?
tidal moth
depends
can a live ops QA or programmer do the job of a live ops designer?
keeping the game alive in terms of infrastructure is different than keeping the playerbase alive
flat gazelle
I could state the same about monetization and economy. They are different roles, with different tools.
The fact that they work together doesn't make them the same
tidal moth
still looks to me as if they share their main purpose of a goal
flat gazelle
Level designers and Level artists have the same goal
tidal moth
but I'll concede the fact that economy designers exist
tidal moth
they don't have the same goals
flat gazelle
They both make levels
tidal moth
level artists don't care about the gameplay
or that it's fun
or whatever metrics that players are going through
flat gazelle
Economy designers don't care about making money for the company
Monetization don't care about fun
tidal moth
no but they care about player retention
again I don't think fun is the main driver for their jobs
but if there is an economy designer who'd like to correct me, I'm happy to see that happen
flat gazelle
Perhaps not where you work, but Make the game fun has been a very clearly stated part of projects I've worked on
Anecdotal, yes
digital gate
Economies which are not broken are more fun, right?
tidal moth
depends?
west sonnet
Gonna go with the guy who works at Ubisoft define a Ubisoft job 😜
flat gazelle
Good interview with an economy designer
He talks about what they do to balance the game
tidal moth
@west sonnet I mean I used to work at ubisoft
flat gazelle
VS
tidal moth
and I thought Glad worked at DICE?
flat gazelle
Vs this where it's about finding ways to get money from the player
I worked at DICE. I work at Ubisoft
tidal moth
Work with design to tune the in game economy to work in harmony with the monetization scheme
I worked at DICE. I work at Ubisoft
my bad Glad
vocal meadow
Just to clarify Economy Designer draws the line at in-game funds, and Monetization/Live Developer draws the line at player-purchased funds?
tidal moth
I don't think there is a clear divide between the roles
but I suppose your guess may be a good starting point
vocal meadow
Well, more or less asking. I am unfamiliar with this kind of specialized field
tidal moth
same
flat gazelle
My guess is that economy designers jobs often fall on progression designers.
If I can sell my starting sword and buy the best armor in the game, the game will have issues.
This would be handled by economy/progression, not monetization
Few games are large enough to require this level of specialization
vocal meadow
Very interesting to have the go-to person for that sort of thing.
tidal moth
I've heard the role/term game balancer before, I guess it may be what came into its own design role as an economy designer
flat gazelle
I'd say economy design is a subgroup of balancers
west sonnet
I think the confusion lies in that the roles are often placed on an individual who has to wear many hats.
tidal moth
design in general has very broad overlaps
flat gazelle
Yup
I think it'seven more confusing as the role probably gets bundled with monetization design on many games.
Like, all mobile games.
tidal moth
I did a double check and found that some mobile studios are employing economy designers separate from monetization designers
flat gazelle
Damn, mobile is growing
tidal moth
but on the whole I think it's a relatively new development in the game design world. like would we have seen that role 5 years ago?
west sonnet
You wouldn’t consider any mmo having one? Or I guess you mean an exclusive specialist.
west sonnet
True
tidal moth
yeah I think most previous economy designers probably reigned under the banner of game balancers
west sonnet
Damn wrangler took all the sprite monkeys job away.
vocal meadow
I heard the same thing with shader programmers and technical artists
blazing mantle
hi guys... are manga/anime artists categorized under concept design or illustration?
dense heath
why should an art style be limited to a role?
west sonnet
I’d like to know what concept design is.
green oyster
it's this guy https://www.artstation.com/scoro
dense heath
its concept art only for things you want to create in the real world :D
green oyster
it's the initial sketching phase of an industrial/product design
west sonnet
So concept art?
Ah. Ok
Now I have a nightmarish image of an anime character walking around
tidal moth
dude strikes me as Syd Mead Jr.
an hour like demo reel with full process
hella cool
versed fractal
Systems design is the broadest design role, covering everything from economies, progression and gameplay. Most studios and projects have different expectations of what is owned by systems designers and how specialized the roles can be.
Economy design is fundamental to many games, especially ones with progression elements, and largely is the design and balance of how systems and content interact — much broader than trade, as the name would imply.
Many RPGs don’t have anyone working primarily in an economy role. On WoW they don’t, on EVE they used to, but it’s more generalized now across the team given how important the player economy is to that game’s identity.
Free to play, especially mobile is the most common place you’ll find the standalone “economy designer” as most of those projects are built around weak core gameplay but depend on very specific economies to support live and monetization needs.
reef turret
ok so i got a question if i were to make a game on itch.io and have the price as 0$ pay what you want(donating basically) would that count as non-commercial? or would i have to find music that allows for it?
mystic storm
@reef turret donations count as revenue toward as far as the licence is concerend
even kickstarter funds etc count
reef turret
@mystic storm thank you 😄
soft quest
how are job prospects coming out of uni specializing in UE4 in the UK?
nova tartan
what's your degree in
afaik they don't let UE4 be a major
west sonnet
If they do. Run
soft quest
its level design with a bigger knowledge in level theory
nova tartan
hmm sounds like you are in for a very cut throat job market
soft quest
any secondary softwares i can learn that would help BUT arent too different
something thats industry standard but easy to learn hard to master kinda thing
nova tartan
I wouldn't necessarily say your skills are lacking
You probably need to focus on networking and portfolio/personal projects
soft quest
its not what you know, more who you know?
soft quest
are there many people at events looking for ue4?
west sonnet
Be prepared to adapt is the key.
west sonnet
*kick arse
soft quest
here to kick arse and chew gum
benna great help clearing my mind and some worries
cheers guys<3
west sonnet
We expect great things to arrive at #work-in-progress 😉
marsh stream
@west sonnet Arent most roles in the Game Industry cut throat xD
west sonnet
That’s not a statement I made
vocal meadow
Believe it depends on the studio cardoor
marsh stream
@west sonnet oh wow. i dunno how that happened. mb
lilac walrus
@soft quest - your knowledge of any individual software will have some value, but it is entirely secondary to the skills you can demonstrate that aren't dependent on said software. Many studios use their own internal tools, and some still use 3d art packages for level design.
The bigger problem is going to be getting noticed at all. The UK farts out 2-3000 games graduates every year, into an industry that only supports about 9000 full-time developers
Historically many of those who went on into gainful employment did so in Europe, before coming back with experience a few years later, but that door is no longer open to you and other regions are fast catching up with regard to quality graduates.
Expect to need to spend a couple of years working on your skills and portfolio before finding a job at present.
marsh stream
That's a scary thing to read as a graduate :/
Although the use of the word 'farts' with such news, definitely made it easier
I don't know if you have any specific experience in regards to Level Design but would you suggest just have a large high quality portfolio of custom levels to be the way to go ? Perhaps analysis documents for each level you design?
lilac walrus
In terms of portfolio, quality is better than size. Pick your two or three best works, present them as best you can, and try to breakdown your workflow and reasoning for constructing your levels the way you did.
Any work that is not as good as your best work will just detract from your portfolio as a whole
marsh stream
Ah wow ok. Atm i have around 9 projects visible in my portfolio[including old Uni projects] so I'll have to select top 3 and as you said present them as best you can, and try to breakdown.
Thanks for the info @lilac walrus 👍
green oyster
and other regions are fast catching up with regard to quality graduates there's a massive gap in some countries from eastern europe. for example here there are no gamedev or 3d schools or anything of sorts. you can do graphic design, illustration, or product design, the only colleges remotely related, while more and more studios come to life and there's quite a demand for artists
lilac walrus
tbh, Eastern Europe doesn't exactly have a huge games industry either, so it's kind of a given
reef raft
maybe its because game development seems very hard for many people here
programming + art + many others, and there is no university that has a degree that combines knowledge needed for game dev
also income seems uncertain as well, it seems easier to just get a job as a programmer somewhere and be relaxed
soft quest
Well shit
tidal moth
getting into game dev is hard yo
especially nowadays
environment art especially seems like a discipline with oversaturation
I've yet to see the same effect on design roles
perhaps because they are a bit harder to grok
on the other hand, there never seems to be too many programmers around
soft quest
Level design and level theory is my passion
tidal moth
it's good to have passion but it needs to translate into something tangible
gentle chasm
@reef raft gamedev is strong in Poland but still we don't have decent gamedev schools
mostly kind of courses or private schools where most students are people dreaming on being famous & rich youtuber
programmers often come from standard universities, artists from classic academies of fine arts
and I'd question quality of both types of these non-gamedev schools when it comes to practical skills learned there... university-grade education here isn't that modern... but it's difficult to get in (not many people studying every year in public, non-paid education), so you need to be really good to start and finish such univ/academy here
but industry is needs a lot more people than are available, so if you know basics (programming/modelling/design) and you can prove it - you're in 😉
it's also easy to find any designer/programmer/artist here, but it's difficult to find someone really self-sufficient
- who would be able to manage his area entirely in small indie studio
- who would be able to spend years in narrow specialization, trained in the specific workflow, game type
west sonnet
I’m a bit confused why schools would matter. If there aren’t studios, there aren’t studios. Not that schools generally produce adequate graduates prepared for the industry anyway.
lilac walrus
most game dev degrees don't produce graduates that are remotely near entry level these days anyway, so it's kind of moot
I would consider a more general software engineering or fine art degree to be superior to a 'game design' degree
(many of which aren't even worth the paper they're printed on, sadly)
the former degrees allow you to get work in tangentially related fields more easily, which may help you build a broader portfolio and relevant experience
since you're going to be spending a couple of years after graduation working on improving your skills anyway
tidal moth
best candidates I've seen for entry level positions has been from vocational schools that work akin to universities
where programmers artists and designers are bred together in one environment
while still maintaining important lessons for each discipline, respectively
something like DigiPen used to be decent in that regard, but I gotta admit I'm a bit dismayed by the games this year
there's a school in Italy I've seen produce actually good PoC and demos
with the intent of pitching to publishers as well
I think there's one in Sweden as well... Game Academy, I believe?
nova tartan
You probably don't see a glut of programmers because game dev doesn't offer much.
"Would you like to make 20% less money and deal with crunch for work that isn't actually different from the companies that pay more? video games!"
Very in demand profession so they tend to have the power in negotiations
pastel estuary
Sweden has one of the best ones afaik, and the one in Breda (netherlands) has been doing much better as of late
flat gazelle
@tidal moth Game Assembly is in Sweden. That's the school that took over from the one I went to some time ago. There's also Futuregames that's reasonable quality i Stockholm.
tidal moth
@flat gazelle game assembly was the one I meant. I was gonna mention you but I figured it best not to give out more notifications 😅
flat gazelle
old man voice back in my day it was called School of Future Entertainment. But then GA opened in a better location, got the funding and then grabbed all the teachers from SoFE and that was it.
flat gazelle
What's the average career length now? It used to be just a few years :S
Hopefully it's increased
@lilac walrus had a number last time it came up I think
But I can't recall
lilac walrus
can't recall, but most people don't make it to 30, which implies < 7-8 years
nova tartan
Them ultra senior devs at
28 years old
lilac walrus
I mean, I'm one of the most senior people in most of the teams I've worked in, and I'm in my early-mid 30s
compared to other industries, that's kinda nuts
tidal moth
yeah I've seen leads at around 28, which does seem a bit younger
flat gazelle
Yeah, I think I was 28ish when I got my associate lead title.
It varies within the industry as well though. My little niche hasn't been around for more than 20 years so there is nobody more senior than that.
merry sequoia
Making a 31 year old 3D artist putting his programming knowledge to use feel bad
Sheesh
lilac walrus
aye, as a specialist TD, I'm already in a modern niche, before getting into specialisms
still a huge amount of studios that don't even have TDs, which for me is kinda mindblowing
merry sequoia
TD?
lilac walrus
Technical Designer
merry sequoia
Ah
acoustic anvil
someone that drawns and maths at the same time 😛
merry sequoia
Like I said I’m usually just in the art cave until recently
lilac walrus
there is literally no art involved with my position, I'm a designer
it's a designer position that is orientated around technical tools
in my particular case I do primarily do gameplay systems design and rapid prototyping
in other studios it varies, some people do things like mission scripting, or scripting individual items etc based on broader core code
Technical Designer is a bit like Technical Artist in that there is room for a significant amount of variation in role, but a lot of studios haven't cottoned on to that yet
acoustic anvil
right, having gameplay designers with technical knowledge would be neat I must say
merry sequoia
Do designers not usually?
acoustic anvil
not ours 😄
merry sequoia
Weird I would think top level could be able to develop the simplest form of mechanics and ideas to better pass down
lilac walrus
most designers have almost zero technical expertise, and it's something of a barrier sometimes
I've come to prefer my own leaning, because I can literally just try out concepts without the need for much support, and iterate very quickly as a result
removing the big communication wall between design and programming results in colossal improvements in iteration time, and iteration quality, IMHO
as an example, we built a complete reconfiguration of our game mode here in 4 weeks in order to try out some different concepts, and we did it with myself, a supporting engineer, and a level designer
I would expect something like that to take 3-5 times as long in other studios I've worked in, and require double the headcount
merry sequoia
It blows my mind there would be that big of a gap between “idea people” designers and programmers.
I’m in no way discounting the value of creativity and game theory ideas but like I said I would imagine some very basic programming / blueprinting capability would be a requirement
Like if you had a staff full of Swedish employees you’d want to be able to communicate in Swedish
Lol
lilac walrus
designers aren't 'idea people', they're problem solvers
if your designers are 'idea people', you have a problem
good designers are usually lateral problem solvers
whereas engineers tend to be logical problem solvers
merry sequoia
I wasn’t phrasing it eloquently, you’re right. I’m just saying it seems programming knowledge in a minimal way would go a long way in cutting down the lost time you described in previous post resulting in miscommunication and trying to figure out what the other is asking etc
lilac walrus
basic programming knowledge takes a lot of time to obtain, unfortunately
the ability to engineer rudimentary systems is in itself a three-year degree ¯_(ツ)_/¯
merry sequoia
Huh.
That wasn’t my experience, but I had a lot of time and practice being self motivated as a freelance 3D artist for decade
nova tartan
advanced programming knowledge can delay things too
"Oooooh I could rearchitect this with the new knowledge"
gotta get the refactoring spray bottle
mystic storm
"I can optomize this."
merry sequoia
I’m used to “finish it and fix it later if it’s necessary” as a project workflow lol. Obviously optimizing and planning are part of the early parts but I’ve learned not to backtrack unless crucial. Better to “do it right” on the next one
lilac walrus
we build things as very rough prototypes first, then build a proper system later once the concepts are proven
engineering proper systems around unproven concepts is a great way to waste time (another problem with the designer-programmer split, usually)
a lot of our gameplay concepts have a large part of their implementation in throw-away BP script still, after a year or so
said script is good enough to ship, but we would prefer robust native code given time
merry sequoia
If it works and doesn’t slow anything down don’t fix it :p
I joke. For shipped products always put your best foot forward but I understand why it’s stayed in that form for this long lol
lilac walrus
it means not sinking development time into things that can still be thrown away quite late in development
merry sequoia
Right
tidal moth
our company has instead chosen to stock up on technical artists that sort of overlap with some of the technical level design aspects in creating tools for our engine
bronze dew
I like that... stock up on TAs lol
mystic hull
You never know when you'll need em 🤷♂️
plucky hatch
Asimov's It’s a dead hand (of the mathematics of human behavior) against a living will - I recently worked on a functional proof of concept for automating content creation for videogames engines (including Unreal), which among other things was proof that certain human designers traditionally needed to manually add content via a toolset are becoming obsolete and replaced by a machine. It doesn't make me the most popular among my fellow men though 😄
tidal moth
I've heard that being said about game designers as well
I've yet to see actual proof for it
west sonnet
Heard the same thing about printing press
honest cipher
@plucky hatch ubisoft are the kings of that
they just make bigger games
XD
thats why you see ubisoft teams still growing, and the landmass size of their games grew a massive fuckton
tidal moth
well yeah because you're inevitably going to pigeonhole yourself with a design like that
"we want it bigger"
"okay but how do we traverse it?"
"VEHICLES ARE NOW A CORE FEATURE"
"okay but how do we fill it"
"USE MODULAR ASSETS"
"okay how long do we have?"
"SIX MONTHS"
nova tartan
climb the tower to unlock the themepark
lilac walrus
that and they reused gameplay mechanics all over the place
'use the eagle / drone / rc car to tag enemies'
comes from having a small central executive team who control all your game design teams to keep the brand 'internally consistent'
wraith stump
Hey, we started a two man studio last night and our first game is slated for April (we've been working on it for a while) any last minute studio/gamedev advice?
barren lotus
Fail often and fail fast, nuture your ugly babies
plucky hatch
Hey guys,
Anyone willing to help me with a reload animation?
I need one badly for my fps project
tidal moth
@plucky hatch I dunno man, maybe #more-resources can teach you
plucky hatch
I know how to use them, I just need an animation to use
carmine siren
@versed citrus This belongs in either #released or #work-in-progress if you are looking for critics. Please don't post the same thing in multiple channels.
tidal moth
@plucky hatch if you knew it then you'd know this isn't the place to post
plucky hatch
My project about automation stems from my interest in efficiency which leads to replacing people with machines. Because one thing people have that interferes with efficiency is hierarchy of needs. Compare a team meeting or a collaborative project ( a collection of humans ) with a data center ( a collection of machines ) from a scientific perspective regarding efficiency. Humans need to drink coffee, go pee, navigate emotional landmines, etc. which chip away at efficiency. Whereas a machine currently doesn't care about the Sino-Indian war of 1962, as a random example (I live in China, I am a biased human :D)
To me as a scientist make sense to focus my efforts in increasing the efficiency via machines, because historical statistics shows a positive trend in efficiency taking the machine route versus the human route. And the moral dilemmas of the future of the replaced humans it's not my problem.
lilac walrus
data centers require human maintainence tho
plucky hatch
Sure I can be used as a scapegoat, but so does Canada or the smurfs 😄
lilac walrus
so it's a real false equivalence
tidal moth
efficiency will always be relative and it is always an idea to fullfill a goal, not a goal of its own
lilac walrus
plus someone actually needs to generate software for said machines to run
lilac walrus
if you want to take it to extremes, sure
tidal moth
my point is that we're still (mostly) humans
plucky hatch
Again, I'm not talking about replacing ALL humans, I'm talking about trimming MOST or at least SOME of them
tidal moth
so we should ensure that we're making things efficient for us, not against us
bronze dew
every month or so.. I see someone who thinks they can replace half the industry
even if their system works.. all it does is help the people already there do EVEN more work 😛
lilac walrus
I mean, I can't see any way someone could actually 'automate' content creation
tidal moth
the creative industry will be the last to be replaced
fierce iris
bronze dew
ook ?
tidal moth
was that a machine? 🤔
bronze dew
someone who died in fortnight most likely to many times
lilac walrus
maybe they just got replaced by a machine
plucky hatch
The machines I'm building are useful to me. The side effect of replacing other human beings gainful employment it's a predictable outcome of evolution, an obvious example of automation from near past is Watts' Steam machine
I personally care about science
tidal moth
just remember the end goal is supporting existence not erasing it
because science on its own doesn't care
plucky hatch
just remember the US post Marshall in the early 80s, and his attitude about email 😄
science is science: I feel good about it, it's not my problem if you don't 😄
tidal moth
the advent of email didn't wipe out the planet, whereas a singularity might
so, false equivalence
lilac walrus
the advent of email didn't erase the postal service either
if anything there's a record number of items being shipped
plucky hatch
Again, I'm not talking about replacing ALL humans, I'm talking about trimming MOST or at least SOME of them
tidal moth
yeah but you're moving into territory where you have less and less control
lilac walrus
there are probably more humans in the postage logistics chain now at any point in history
plucky hatch
I have successfully done so, and as a scientist I feel accomplished
nova tartan
Don't pat yourself on the back too much yet, you haven't actually made anyone's life easier yet that I know of
tidal moth
and even if you do, at the expense of what
because it sounds like you're willing to throw a lot things under the bus just so you can feel pride and accomplishment
plucky hatch
as I mentioned before, humans and the pesky hierarchy of needs 😄
bronze dew
it's all a fun hypothetical.. but I don't think anyone here is going to be replaced anytime soon...
most of us are super adaptable considering what field we are in.. and how fast it changes
tidal moth
the creative industry will be the last to be replaced
bronze dew
I agree on this one
tidal moth
even science can be automated before creativity
bronze dew
and it will be unlikely to be totally replaced
tidal moth
I disagree
nova tartan
I've switched major languages 3 times since I started
All the platforms I used to work on have been deprecated
My day to day now is completely different from 1 year ago which is completely different from 2 years ago etc
I haven't moved companies or anything, just the nature of software dev
nova tartan
both science and creativity are already partially automated
like folding at home project
or machine learning algorithms generating new symphonies
some stuff is easier to automate than others
tidal moth
we're talking about full automation
anything that lends itself towards logic, especially boolean logic is easy to automate naturally
lilac walrus
machine learning is also hardly automated
it requires a vast data set, and it requires human input to determine which tests were successful and which were not between iterations
tidal moth
anyway in the end we're automatons as well, even if our processors are different there is a lot of overlap
@lilac walrus I don't think that's because it couldn't be automated, that sounds more like a safety precaution
lilac walrus
nah, it's because you need a way to quantify results
at the moment subjectivity is something that is entirely alien to machine processes
bronze dew
well.. I'm a trained scientist... how'bout you give me something to actually wrap my brain around then...
bronze dew
👆
rigid talon
question: what type of c++ language should i learn to get easily job at even small or big company? what kind of skills required for unreal c++ to get job easily?
should i learn c# too or only get high experience in ue4 c++?
west sonnet
If you use the term 'easily', you may want to reevaluate this career choice.
vocal meadow
How familiar are you with programming @rigid talon ?
rigid talon
i know unreal c++
mean i'm intermediate in ue4 c++
just want to know what kind of skills required for job as a career
vocal meadow
Programming is kind of a wide field even when you limit it to unreal engine jobs. The smaller the company, the more likely your range of familiarity of the engine will be tested.
The bigger the company the better you have to get at the specific sub category of programming you'd be going after
Every release of C++ adds a lot of features, currently C++14 is the target by default in unreal. Theres not really different types beyond the features, just different programmers, since the language largely puts trust in the programmer to do the right thing.
I would say the most valuable things to pick up as a C++ programmer for unreal would be blueprints
rigid talon
but most companies and some of the project require c++
vocal meadow
But yeah theres not really an easy path.
Yeah the art of writing blueprint code and understanding how people will use it, how they work and how to work them is very important
rigid talon
should i learn vector math concepts?
west sonnet
Are you doing gameplay, audio, AI, physics, UI, graphic, build, network, or animation programming? Or one I haven't listed?
rigid talon
yes all of them
west sonnet
Yeah no
vocal meadow
each one of those would be a role somewhere at a big company slack
rigid talon
that's where i'm confused
west sonnet
No one wants a jack of all trade. You physically can't master all, therefore you master none if you try to be a jack of all trade
vocal meadow
Well, a smaller studio might. but finding jobs at smaller studios isn't super easy for the obvious reasons
at bigger studios you might have a AI programming manager and a branch of programmers under them for the one area of code
rigid talon
question: what is the average salary of a small/beginner unreal engine programmer? working in even small studio
west sonnet
free
vocal meadow
👆 lol
Your not gonna regret learning a bit of everything slack but if the goal is to get a job, look at job listings
west sonnet
learn everything as a hobby. Specialize if you want a job
rigid talon
please let me know i just need idea about salary of average unreal programmer, i can understand you
vocal meadow
You'd be surprised how many people at the big companies intern for free slack, just for portfolio cred.
west sonnet
They're desperate students who want to work at their dream studio. And said studios know it
remote saffron
Don't let them exploit u
If you are a programmer it is not hard to find a paid job with a few high quality own project
Outside of games even without that
Also dream studio can turn into nightmare studio :(
vocal meadow
Would recommend not incubating yourself into a project for portfolio work and instead actually looking at job listings and applying too slack.
west sonnet
and actually pick a job title
cold crypt
What usually happens is you're a novice in most areas, apply for jobs, get into an entry level position, and are given work that ends up in one or two areas. You spend a few years doing those things and getting good at them, get a few promotions, and now that's your area of expertise. It might even get baked into your title if promoted enough.
You don't master 12 things and get a high level "Programmer of Everything" title and that's your job now
merry sequoia
What about the people that make their own games? I mean that’s basically jack of all trades
I mean obviously those people aren’t looking for jobs at said studios, so I guess that’s it’s own answer in a way.
vocal meadow
They cray cray
merry sequoia
Lol why
I mean unless your goal is to make millions like some major studio that is
That’s cray cray
cold crypt
I'd say it has less to do with being able to accomplish tasks in a lot of areas -- like making your own game -- and more to do with mastery being a function of time and depth. With a year I'm sure any motivated person could grasp enough of $random-engine-concept and use docs and refs to make it go, but the person making well over 6 figures working at the major studio should be able to do it in 1/10th the time
mystic hull
Do you guys include your references in your CV, or wait for recruiters/HR to ask for them?
flat gazelle
I've never been asked for a reference, but I've been called up as one a couple of times. It seems to vary between countries
merry tartan
@mystic hull In the not sure if it is everywhere but in the USA they will ask but I think most people know that references given by the candidate are useless, mostly they ask around the industry.
plucky hatch
The best ability is availability. In any field. In respects to taking a free intern at a dream job, if you can afford it do it. The best thing about working for free is you are available to quit and take a great job at anytime, and everyone is happy for you. If you are stuck in entry level trying to work your way up, you may not be available for a great job or you may be too busy to look for a great job.
tidal moth
in some countries references are mandated by the gov
usually in those cases though the onus is on you to provide them though
mystic hull
I see, thanks to you all ❤️
@mystic hull In the not sure if it is everywhere but in the USA they will ask but I think most people know that references given by the candidate are useless, mostly they ask around the industry.
@merry tartan What if I was never "in the industry" per se? 🤔
merry tartan
@mystic hull I would wait for them to ask then give them people you have pre-setup you have to make sure they can be trusted to say what you want them to hear.
you need to interview the people that you would use for references with some basic reference questions and hear how they handle it
Why would I want to hire Blue? Well he smokes meth better then anyone I have ever known, he is the best meth smoker I know. << not good.
mystic hull
Makes sense, gotcha 👌
Thanks a bunch 😄
How'd you know I was a good meth smoker though? 🤔
merry tartan
just a guess
🙂
When this was more common, I would ask people I was listing as references and talked to them and realized I needed to find new references. I didn't need people being honest about me I needed good liars.
dense heath
and thats also the reason those references are usless to employers, only shows you managed to make friends who can say the right thing
merry tartan
exactly why nobody uses them and they seek out 3rd party people that will say all the bad things about people.
I wouldnt bother calling references unless I needed bread crumb folks to find other folks I knew already.
sometimes it gets hard to remember where everyone is working, all I can say it is a very small industry and you need to protect your rep, all those times I ran around in the 90's naked during a crunch period have come back to haunt me, and it makes me sad.
mystic hull
But then if that's the case, how would people verify my previous jobs
They've all been remote
merry tartan
one thing I wish I could change is that I started when I was 19, and some people remember that version of me even though I am 50 now.
mystic hull
I've always wanted to run around naked not gonna lie
Kudos to you actually, for having the courage! 😂
But yeah I think I know what you mean
merry tartan
The previous jobs you have had required you to do work, all they have to do is ask you questions about that work and find out what exactly you did
mystic hull
Mhmm
I was kinda worried about the whole reference thing to be fair
one of my previous jobs didn't end on good terms
merry tartan
they dont need or want to talk to other people they want to talk to you about it if you are lying and get caught then that is very bad and should be avoided.
we had one artist bring in art saying it was his portfolio and it was art from an artist already working at the studio, image me going to that person and asking them to interview the person knowing that the person had lied and taking credit for another persons work.
we had people bring in originals as we started to see this as a pattern people would just bow out of the interview we knew they were full of shit.
mystic hull
That's kind of reassuring actually
I'm a developer, but it wouldn't be hard reciting everything I've ever written so far
not in detail obviously but yeah
Only got a few years to remember so 😄
merry tartan
you just need to give highlights and think about what you learned during the process of doing that work
I tend to talk to much during interviews people get caught up in my stories and forget why they are in the room, so even if you can tell a great story it is a power that needs to be tempered, I tend to get carried away with telling the story and holding the audience and forget the objective or I used to do this more in my 20's.
it is a great tool during the feel good ending the meeting or if they want more after the objective as been met.
so think about your career as a story and keep the details to what they are asking about, if you see the eyes shifting into glazed then finish your sentence and move to the next question.
mystic hull
Thank you for the gold advice my good sire!
merry tartan
No worries lots of people helped me over the decades, good luck!
nova tartan
My friend in HR was telling me that you have to have references to seem normal, but they were only called after they had decided to hire a person, to kind of cover their ass legally.
plucky hatch
If your reference is a former employer, there are only a few questions they are legally allowed to answer, if you reference is a former coworker or a peer, they can elaborate more. You can use both to your advantage.
wise quarry
I’m having trouble with water and terrain. I’m really new to unreal and I would like to work as a team
nova tartan
you can check out #looking-for-talent #looking-for-work and any local gamejams/game dev meetups
This is channel is mostly for career advice, are you looking for any specific help for your career?
wise quarry
Not really
worn whale
If I'm part of an indie studio that is not officially listed as an organization but has a name/website/ and everything, should I put it under the "work" area of job applications?
mystic hull
As a general rule of thumb - an advice I had received - if you got paid to do a job, you can consider it a "professional" job
worn whale
okay so in this scenario, since I'm not being paid, I should not list it under the work section of an application
it is listed under "experience" on my resume, however
west sonnet
I've seen people list them as work
mystic hull
Yep, the main reason (purely from my experience) is you'll be asked questions about it
you could opt to lie, but I personally find that unethical
all relative to who you ask tho 🤷♂️
west sonnet
Best to just have one section called experience in my opinion
mystic hull
I recall specifically being asked "Do you own the company? Did you get paid at X job?" when they're listed as indie
I find the word "indie" triggers the recruiters though for some reason
west sonnet
it triggers alot of people
worn whale
Sorry I didn't mean to confuse. This has to do with the websites that companies have that you have to fill in the information outside of the resume
on my resume, I only have one section called "experience" but on the website, they ask for "Work Experience" but I have never professionally "worked" for someone so I don't put that in and I'm curious if I should
west sonnet
Good question
worn whale
yeah I have never used that word in my applications
just used the name of the studio lol
vocal meadow
I'm just triggered 😄
vocal meadow
When microsoft or some other big publisher introduces you to a market of indies, where prices are 1 to 5 dollars and not everything works this is how players are also introduced.
west sonnet
What role are you applying for if I may as Beest?
tidal moth
the indiepocalypse is real
that's why when I go indie I actually have a setup ready to start a food truck company if it goes bust
mystic hull
Sadly so 😢
Sadly enough I've not been in the industry enough time yet to have a backup plan of starting any business
but hey, I could always go web dev
tidal moth
if you're a programmer take it easy
go into financial software
you'll be making money hand over fist
vocal meadow
literally making money?
vocal meadow
but @worn whale i'm also curious what your applying for, didn't mean to derail.
tidal moth
I too am curious
worn whale
I have applied/am applying for level design and/or game design positions @vocal meadow @tidal moth @west sonnet
west sonnet
Then I can see why they want to know if you had any industry related paid work in that case
worn whale
Yeah so I have been omitting listing it as paid work and simply putting it in my resume. I am applying for associate/entry-level/intern positions though
My only concern was that my application automatically gets filtered out because I have no paid work experience. I do have a lot of experience, just not paid
west sonnet
5+ years of experience for an entry level job am I right? 😛
west sonnet
Other professional work doesn't technically involve immediate financial income (IE investing personal income to develop a mobile game). They're more interested on whether you published something
worn whale
Yeah tbf I did go to school for this - hoping this degree does something
west sonnet
It makes a good fire kindling material
mystic hull
🤣 Degrees are overrated
worn whale
Hasn't even arrived yet so it is even more useless
west sonnet
I never even looked at mine
mystic hull
I've always wanted one, haven't gotten the chance yet
it's kinda hard to commit when you already work
worn whale
I understand
It can be really tough trying to balance the two sometimes
Okay so what about on here? Should I put in non-paid experience or no?
vocal meadow
of course
worn whale
Okay thanks I haven't been doing that on this website (smartrecruiters)
tidal moth
places that give you a form like that need to get better HR tech
"oh you have a CV? how about you write YOUR ENTIRE CV AGAIN because our system demands it"
tidal moth
fuck knows
another reason it's a terrible system
and if that's the first impression they give potential applicants, it's not giving them a favorable view
at least that's my take
mystic hull
Would agree, you do have to attach your CV regardless
at least when I applied to ubisoft I needed to do that, and rewrite the entire thing on the website
tidal moth
which ubi did you apply to?
tidal moth
were you US based?
mystic hull
Sadly not
tidal moth
my mistake
worn whale
Ubi goes through smartrecruiters (that one I posted) at least in the US
but it sucks because like i'm never sure if I should rewrite my entire fucking resume
tidal moth
you should only rewrite it if it's not readable
or if you have enough experience that you need to rewrite it due to the design not being able to hold the experience
worn whale
Oh sorry for the lack of clarification, I meant like on the website when they ask you the same information that you have on your CV
tidal moth
write it since they ask for it
then for attachments attach your CV as well
though if it's for design, your portfolio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your cv
worn whale
Okay thanks yeah I do put in my portfolio website both on my cv and in any separate spots asked by the website
tidal moth
yeah I mean your CV is for general applications, it's just this one company that likes to take the piss
flat gazelle
Smartrecruiters is great. For the ones recieveing it. Not for the applicants :S
worn whale
Yeah unfortunately Ubi applications for me just go immediately to that website 😦
flat gazelle
It's nice! You get all the info neatly packaged, and all relevant people get access at the same time.
Shame it's so bad for applicants it actually turns some of them away
worn whale
I'm assuming you work in HR/at HR-level? Does your company even look at the CVs? @flat gazelle
Asking for curiosity's sake
west sonnet
Google him and have fun 😜
tidal moth
last I heard he was lead CEO of all gamedev
west sonnet
Lead senior ceo you mean
flat gazelle
Wtf...
Fair enough I'll stick to the channels I belong in then. Just thought I'd offer some perspective from the other side.
tidal moth
@flat gazelle we meant no harm, it was just friendly banter
vocal meadow
How does it work against the applicants glad?
safe gyro
Not sure if that's the right place to ask but... how do I post a job offer here? The posts at the channel are done by a bot but how do I make it post?
clever hill
@safe gyro Second post in the Guide-channel.
"Using The Job Board
• DM the word talent or lft to Unrealbot to post on #looking-for-talent
• DM the word work or lfw to Unrealbot to post on #looking-for-work
• IMPORTANT NOTE: The bot will wait up to 30 seconds for a response to each question. Because of this, I recommend writing the larger portions of your post outside of Discord and pasting them in."
plucky hatch
Hey everyone!
I am looking to connect with a few individuals and businesses who regularly hire freelancers. Anyone would be kind to give me 5 minutes of their time for a chat?
marsh stream
If one really wanted to pursue level design as a career, is it wise to focus on a genre and stick to making levels for that genre? or should a level designer be flexible and be able to design levels for a variety of genres (FPS/third person adventure/horror/competitive multiplayer)?
not sure if this belongs in the #level-design since its career based?
tidal moth
I think it's fine here
the more design experience you get the more you realize that all design leads to the same place
at a junior or intern level what you want to focus on is building stuff, and get design experience from testing it
you want to be your own scientist really. have an idea, execute the idea, iterate on it until you have something that feels good to play
then leave it for a while and come back to it later, and see if it still plays well
so really, just pick any genre and get something done @marsh stream
still shard
Anybody have a list of stuff to study/look up when applying for a application for a Software Engineering position in Unreal Engine?
Or just some common topics that get brought up
nova tartan
Is this entry level?
still shard
Yeah, though mid-level topics would be appreciated as well
digital gate
Do you know the gameplay framework like the back of your hand?
GAS (it's a plug-in) would also be good to know.
Other than that, what's your area of focus?
still shard
I'm more of a gameplay guy, but the position I'm interested in doesn't really have any specific areas of focus
digital gate
So in that case my recommendations stand
nova tartan
Basic stuff you can expect in almost any software dev interview:
Do you have a github or any other examples of work you've done in the past?
Have you worked professionally as a software developer before?
Do you have a computer science degree?
We use language X here, have you worked with it before? (C++ is probably the most likely)
Here is a C++ programming problem, whiteboard how you would solve it
How do you test your code? ("I run it and see if it breaks" is a bad answer)
How do you document your code? ("I put in comments" is not enough)
What do you know about source control? Have you set it up etc
Have you worked with automatic builds/tests before? To what degree? Can you set it up?
still shard
Right yeah, I've been studying up/creating answers for those types of questions, just curious what Unreal-API/Editor specific questions get asked
nova tartan
Expect questions related to their tools and languages and products they work on, because that's what you will be working on. You can try and look up what they use to be better prepared.
still shard
Heh, it's an indie working on their first unnanounced game 😅
but I do know some specifics about the game their working on, so I'll prolly practice up on those things
digital gate
It really can depend on the studio
Some of them won't start with UE stuff, others won't have you write code
nova tartan
Yeah we didn't use to ask people direct coding questions
Then we got scammed by a sweet talker
now we have to ask them
digital gate
Right, so as a strong candidate you would be able to tackle a variety of interview methods
I wouldn't be surprised to have the interviewer ask for a high level discussion on something you did and then drill down into detail at a whim
I wouldn't be surprised to have the interviewer ask for a high level discussion on something you did and then drill down into detail at a whim
west sonnet
For an indie studio though? They’re more often than not just as inexperienced in hiring talent.
For an indie studio though? They’re more often than not just as inexperienced in hiring talent.
digital gate
I wouldn't be surprised to have the interviewer ask for a high level discussion on something you did and then drill down into detail at a whim
tidal moth
damn am I going crazy or is everyone sending repeat messages
barren lotus
I'm not seeing repeat messages
vocal meadow
discord is acting up strong
barren lotus
I'm not seeing repeat messages
barren lotus
I'm not seeing repeat messages
vocal meadow
my messages, grey.
mystic hull
What the heck O.o
west sonnet
Discord is bork
tidal moth
lmao it's like watching a strange timeloop unfold
vocal meadow
my messages, grey.
vocal meadow
it has stopped
digital gate
my messages, red.
And it thoroughly depends. Most studios that are likely to schedule @still shard are going to be smaller, newer studios (maybe?) but that doesn't preclude them having someone on the team who thinks a strategy they encountered in one of their own interviews is cool
still shard
smaller and newer yeah, but in this case, has high level talent that has interviewed people at AAA companies
waxen tree
still shard
Wait, I don't get why this video makes you glad you moved out of Unity?
This issue here is just an inexperienced programmer
that can happen in any engine
digital gate
is that playmaker gen code? Haven't seen it before
west sonnet
I would imagine they’re going to be extra picky in that case. New hire is going to have a large impact when it’s such a small team that knows what they’re doing. Glad you’ve landed an interview with a experienced team at least hcorion. I wish you luck.
nova tartan
Yeah, the smaller the team the more hats you are going to have to wear, there's going to be fewer narrowly defined roles. Your job would probably be primarily development, but also "literally anything that needs doing" from watering plants to proof reading the next pitch.