internet says: sometimes.
#career-chat
silent acorn
English be like that
gaunt geyser
Is game dev, with a focus on programming a viable self taught career? Not looking to make 6 figures, just want to enjoy what i do
tidal moth
as a hobbyist profession or do you want to actually get employed
gaunt geyser
I would like to get employed in the future
tidal moth
then I'd consider getting a diploma, for programming
learning programming yourself is fine and you can do it, but it takes a lot of effort, and it's going to be an uphill battle getting through recruiters
it's not something I'd necessarily consider for anyone other role
although for design I'd probably say study programming as well
fickle hatch
I think you should complete at least some form of a course where you have mentors who make sure you do everything and check up on your progress, help you
I think that it's very valuable that during this starting time you have some sort of a person who keeps nudging you to keep moving forward even when you find things confusing and hard to learn
It's too easy to give up learning something on your own unless you've already studied a lot before
tidal moth
it is very person dependent, though in a sense if you aren't already a programming genius, then you'd probably want to have some structure for learning it
gaunt geyser
Mentors is definitely a must
"Learning how to learn is a thing" this is so true lol
fickle hatch
The way I see it, the mentor is there not to teach you the subject specifically, but more to aid you in learning how to learn (so you can learn the subject on your own)
gaunt geyser
For sure, I have been trying to find a way to explain that to my wife. I can learn just about anything, very easily. But knowing what to learn, or how to learn it even is way more important
daring parrot
Yeah, like I said before, getting a degree is a form of guaranteed practice for an extended period of time
gaunt geyser
I have spent 20+ hours in UE4 in the last 2 weeks. Sure I learned a lot, but with guidance, a mentor, I probably could have learned the same content in 6 hours haha
tidal moth
plus unis in most cases have placements for internships
not necessarily in games, but really it doesn't matter that much
at my company we've hired quite a few programmers this way
gaunt geyser
When you say degree, my wife is currently enrolled in our local college's Animation and Game Development, 3 year course.
We are not financially well off, would she benefit from going to uni beyond college?
tidal moth
what does she want to do
gaunt geyser
She wants to get into Animation/rigging
tidal moth
unless it's more tech animation then no, not really
gaunt geyser
modelling I guess. she's very artistic. I have no artistic value but have technical skills lol
tidal moth
rigging is a bit of a middle ground
tidal moth
no, as in the analogue of a technical artist for animation
tidal moth
usually tech anim would set up rigs etc. and ensure everything in the pipeline runs smooths for animators
may also help set up locomotion together with anim programmers
generally more behind the scenes than in front
but if she's only into animation, then I'd just focus on getting a good reel down
vocal meadow
Do the big publishers still kinda siphon people from certain schools into careers with them?
kindred mason
yeah
But, now with so many schools, publishers are spreading out a bit
Obviously if your school is in close proximity to a big studio, the recruitment is bigger
timber quail
does anyone know why my noise is red?
vocal meadow
#more-resources @timber quail
timber quail
ah thanks
tidal moth
@vocal meadow I wouldn't say siphon, it's not a constant flow but certainly it's worth keeping an eye out for new graduates
game dev education has come a long way in the past few years, at least around where I am based
I was a design judge a couple months back for a school, and the bar has been lifted pretty damn high
nova tartan
If you are pursuing software development (game dev or otherwise) as a career path, a computer science degree is highly highly recommended
You will either need that or a brilliant, provable track record of high quality programming work through open source or other similar software projects.
Generally without a degree you won't be getting past initial screening, unless you are already so well known that developers know you somehow through your work and get you in by requesting your hire.
lilac walrus
You don't need a degree to be a games programmer, and it's generally accepted that a bachelor's degree ill prepares someone for the requirements of games. Nevertheless, it is a good thing to have should you need to meet visa requirements, or need to fall back on it if games work is not available.
nova tartan
I'm looking at job postings right now, and it's pretty much 100% requires a degree or equivalent, and I know my company will not even look at you if you don't have a degree or a certain degree of fame in the open source world. I do a lot of the technical assessment in interviews and screening and most people without degrees don't even make it to me for evaluation, HR filters them out.
A lot of game programming stuff is the harder stuff in programming too, which require even more theory than typical software dev jobs.
Unless you are the kind of person who is contributing to software projects in your spare time for fun and you basically live this stuff, get a degree
pastel estuary
I barely know any coders that have a degree
heck, in gamedev in general I barely know people who have a degree that aligns with gamedev
lilac walrus
What job postings list, and what teams actually require are two different things
Heck, I even started in the industry as a core programmer at Microsoft / Lionhead. I do not have a degree.
If you're not the kind of person who fiddles with or makes games in their spare time for fun, you're in the wrong industry
(and that's why the degree is so much less important in this industry)
pastel estuary
and generally, the people with the degrees go coding outside of gamedev as it pays a brickton more.
iron cave
Does one know the best option to find out if a company is looking for someone to make an jingle?
west sonnet
Honestly, ignore that degree requirement and industry experience (for an entry level position). My best guess to why it’s there is to make the hiring studio look good.
lilac walrus
I can't imagine any companies are looking for someone to make a jingle
iron cave
Damn.
Well, have to be someone out there somewhere that is in need of music tho. Practicing only gets you so far, but practicing sadly doesn't. Make any funds either.
Bit difficult and probably too late to really switch paths at this point.
And programming isnt much of my strong point.
@west sonnet what exactly is an entry level though? All I ever see is senior positions, and if they do show a few junior roles, they all require that I shipped AAA title. A bit difficult to ship a AAA title without being in a studio.
lilac walrus
Junior positions almost always list "shipped games experience', but it's basically never necessary
iron cave
Yeah, but sadly most junior positions I have seen aren't near my area most.of.the time.
There is a few jobs in Germany but majority of them are Senior or leads.
So I never touched them. Only aimed for Junior
tidal moth
I barely know any coders that have a degree
heck, in gamedev in general I barely know people who have a degree that aligns with gamedev
most coders I work with have degrees, as do most other devs. It's been a while since I've met someone who doesn't have uni or some vocational school diploma that works in the industry
@pastel estuary
I think times have changed a lot, and while a degree isn't strictly necessary, most young people go for a degree regardless
iron cave
I am sure many back then may not have had a degree in the 80s or 90s. Especially for those people who made games in their room on a Atari or so.
Probably some managed to get work in the industry without one, obviously today it's different.
And that is dependable. Some do, but a good few of folks dont do an degree due to the massive debt you'll be put in. Unless you are rich.
Quite a big.group of students I knew in school all finished school and went to work, because none of them wanted to be in student debt.
pastel estuary
going for a degree when possible is nice, besides learning more people skills and what not during education it is valueble knowledge and you have something to fall back on. regardless, in the games industry its generally a moot subject if the person can show adequate skills
but, depends on the team, company, etc
iron cave
Depends on the university too.
Sometimes you can end up studying at a university with barely the right equipment or software, or just terrible study group.
tidal moth
I don't think the degree factors into the selection process as much outside of programming, but generally I'll be more interested in seeing designers that also have some experience programming
iron cave
These days it's also country to country.
Some countries demand you to have papers for literally everything and some do not.
tidal moth
that has no bearing on a game industry job really
it might help with a visa, but if a company wants you bad enough, even that's not an issue
well except for the US
iron cave
I know, I am just saying in general of course.
iron cave
Outside of the industry, like retail, for basic work or bar staff you'll be barely poked in the gut about showing academic papers, so long you got a CV and a cover letter, and... if you want to be in deep, know the manager. That's good enough.
But that's also dependable in country again. But to be fair I've never searched further than retail as a side job and the industry as a main job.
Never looked at the Industrial side of things like factory, warehouses or office jobs.
All I am doing at the moment is indie freelance work, till I am qualified enough to finally get s interview or afoot in the door.
west sonnet
You really need to network. I find that’s how you land an interview more often than not.
iron cave
I do, but I dont feel qualified yet to even work in the industry.
Hence I am just doing Indie stuff until I got enough under my belt. I helped shipping one title so far, so it's a start.
tidal moth
you've also picked a role that isn't core to games industry, so again, if you want to do what you want to do, you got to build credit otherwise to rise above other candidates
pastel estuary
keep practicing, see if you can do some stuff for a (free?) indie game, and if you dareso, make a marketplace pack.
iron cave
Tried to make an pack, unfortunately not many really buy it, because so many are tossing out free soundtracks for free if charge, which makes my job 10 times harder.
tidal moth
also if you are just going for composition you're already worse off than people who also do audio design
iron cave
And I find that I am at a stage that, if i tried to change paths, itll be way more difficult, so I find I pretty much shot myself in the foot with the one I've.chosen since study.
Well, not sure what to do then.
tidal moth
it's not uncommon to switch directions or go into other fields
iron cave
I tried that.
iron cave
I've been trying various fields during my 6 years of study, composing was the only one I didn't suck the most at.
iron cave
Let me rephrase.
tidal moth
no really I think you have to have a better mindset than this
otherwise McDonalds is always hiring
west sonnet
Indeed, game industry is probably the most limited and competitive for that field. I’ve seen many work for film and marketing instead.
iron cave
During my 6 years if studying, including practicing at home during the course of the years, composing was the only thing I didn't suck the most at
So I stuck with it life long, because it was the only thing I felt I was reasonable good at.
Never said I was talented at it, just saying i felt that i was ok at it, so i stuck with it and attempted to improve.
iron cave
Truthly in detail, or in short?
iron cave
Was originally 3D. But my issue is I lose faith when i see other peoples work and just sorta quit. So composing was my 3rd better option.
Or should say, I lose major motivation.
tidal moth
3d isn't hard to learn
iron cave
If i see stuff from a talented artist my self esteem and motivation hits the toilet like an brick.
tidal moth
or be reasonably good at
iron cave
I know. But I struggled at it regardless.
tidal moth
you have to have the discipline to keep going
iron cave
The closest thing I did was the Mammoth Walker from CnC and a magnum.
tidal moth
regardless of what your mind is telling you
tbh this is something you should have learned during uni
iron cave
Yeah, I know. Unfortunately my past fucked me over, so I was in a constant stage of depression during my uni study. I didn't find joy in most things and it affected my work
I ain't going to go into detail, but I struggled in a lot of stuff.
This why I was looking and testing and practicing these different fields to see what fits me the most.
tidal moth
I'm sure everyone has a similar story
the point is that you can excuse yourself all you want, it's still not going to get you a job
iron cave
Honestly music is still questionable, and the more people talk about how it's less required, the more I feel that i wasted my time.
tidal moth
so you have figure out your issues, your passion and whether or not it is worth it for your to go into the industry
iron cave
I am not excusing myself of getting a job. I want a job. Problem is it's a major struggle for me not to give up
tidal moth
then see a therapist
instead of complaining about it
right now the #1 reason you're not getting a job is that you're wallowing in self pity and excuses instead of looking to get better
west sonnet
Got clinical depression too. Since childhood. It kills motivation like nothing else. Please do seek medical help.
iron cave
I did but it didn't do anything for me.
iron cave
I never said that.
tidal moth
legit getting angry over your mentality here
west sonnet
There are many fields of psychology and anti-depressant
iron cave
I am sorry you feel that way, I am just explaining the situation that i am in. And i have been practicing and doing stuff to get better in that field
pastel estuary
gives Este a backrub
tidal moth
feels much better
west sonnet
It’s a journey but you definitely need proper medical help
iron cave
But I am stuck in the middle whether it's a good idea now since most say it's not really worth doing.
So now I am back to square one.
pastel estuary
Kojak, if you are passionate about music, and need to network, make daily's. can be 1 minute tunes, post about em on twitter andwhat not.
iron cave
I do have LinkedIn and twitter and I used to post my stuff there, but I stopped after while, mostly because I was doing work for an friend for his game, so my Twitter was relatively quiet.
tidal moth
posting it is secondary to making it
iron cave
Well I was planning to start posting it again, but I cant exactly make a track in one day each day.
I roughly spend a few days at most.
tidal moth
you don't need to make one track
just make something
make a stinger
make a sample
iron cave
I am. But it's relatively slow.
tidal moth
just make something
the point is not that it needs to be the best quality
the point is that you're working with your stuff every day
iron cave
I do, after I get home from the JC and I had an hour break I usually sit around on FL till night and hit the bed, heh.
But for me I spend few days before I even consider my track to be worth posting.
tidal moth
well right now you've spent a good half hour or more talking on here, consider what you could do in that time just doing anything else
I'd even say if your passion is 3d, then get back into 3d
pastel estuary
https://twitter.com/Markymark665 < does dailies (when he has time)
Twitter
iron cave
Well to be fair I am not home, hence I can talk.
pastel estuary
1243 ones posted already hehe
iron cave
But the amount if tracks I made I only posted maybe a few out of the ten or twenty that i make, even if they are just a minute long.
Because I felt they ain't worth listening too, so I never posted em or placed then up in the soundcloud account.
tidal moth
again, posting is secondary to making
it should be first and foremost something you do for you
pastel estuary
posting content you are not proud of helps you grow.
We artists are often our biggest critics and are too close to the subject to evaluate it properly.
accept it, and get to work.
tidal moth
agreed
it took a long time to get to where I am as well, it does for everyone
you cannot do it without discipline
iron cave
But I would still be left with the other issue, if barely anyone needs a composer, wouldn't I just be putting effort into something that wont help me land a place of work?
west sonnet
You are your own advertiser
If you think you are worthless, why would an employer think otherwise?
Gotta have at least a fake ego
pastel estuary
fake it till you make (yourself) it :p
iron cave
Yes, but again... A few spoke out how music isnt that much of a Importance, since most.companies have their own one man or orchestral team.
iron cave
I do, I dont mind if I end up doing something for the film or marketing industry.
That's not a issue
Main concern is that I dont want to end up doing so much, and end up getting nothing at the end, you know?
west sonnet
Either do 100% or none at all. It’s competitive, that’s the nature of it
iron cave
I get that.
I am just trying to avoid disappointing a few important people again, hence my concern.
west sonnet
I respectfully don’t think you do. You are in control of your own fate. You can despair or work towards your goals
This is something I guarantee everyone in this room or every will be in this room had
iron cave
I do have an habit of hating my work, so that's been a major thing. Regardless if I got given a thumbs up on it I feel it ain't that great or to the standard they wouldve liked.
west sonnet
Sigh
tidal moth
again just wallowing
iron cave
I am more or less explaining.
west sonnet
Agree
Point of the matter is: so? What are you going to do about it?
You need to have a solution oriented mindset instead of a fault finding one
Stop for a moment
iron cave
Guess I'll keep going through the tunnel till I hit the exit.
west sonnet
And consider what you are about to post. And ask: so?
tidal moth
all that destructive energy you can harness into your work instead
and you'll be better for it
iron cave
I guess...
west sonnet
Kick it’s butt
iron cave
Alright. Guess I'll get home and sleep it off, be fresh in the morning and try again from fresh, or start. And then go from there.
And if it doesn't much matter if it doesn't sound the best, I guess I could post it up on twitter each time then.
Aight, well... thanks for the talk
tender quartz
It’s a beautiful day to be alive
We’re all so lucky to be who we are, where we are, with an opportunity to work in such an awesome field
Show up everyday
Get out of your own way
And enthusiastically go from either failure or success onwards to the next step
The journey IS the destination
You are not a drop in an ocean, you are an ocean in a drop
tidal moth
ok we get the message let's stop this before it turns into crystal healing
tender quartz
Ommmmmmmm 🧘♂️
gloomy hill
Hey guys I have a question If I only do programming with Blueprints (for now) how should I advertise myself should I go for gameplay programming or designer ? if that's the case
tidal moth
scripter if anything
it's a part of a design skillset, but ultimately being a designer is much more than just doing that
lilac walrus
yeah, you're doing neither programming, nor design
this is scripting
also it tends to pay pretty badly, FYI
gloomy hill
well thank you guys for clearing that out better start doing some C++
tidal moth
if you're thinking about doing programming you should consider a degree
gloomy hill
@lilac walrus even though the pay is not that great do you thing there still opportunities at least to get started ?
@tidal moth sure is there anything you recommend ?
lilac walrus
scripting is a pretty common position in most studios
tidal moth
computer science, software architecture
probably more the latter than the former, since the math and logic stuff doesn't matter as much
unless it's discrete maths
but we're not supposed to talk about those
gloomy hill
how come?
tidal moth
it's a joke
discrete math is a part of maths that programmers are actually concerned with quite often
gloomy hill
haha ok, lastly I wanted to ask if you guys use linkedin, and what are some of the tips you guys can give me when setting up my page to stand up
lilac walrus
Software Engineering is probably what I'd look into
also Linkedin is a complete waste of time
lilac walrus
I haven't touched it in years
tidal moth
I knew I forgot one
lilac walrus
probably a decade or so
daring parrot
if you haven't touched it in years wouldn't that be why it's a waste of time 😛
lilac walrus
it's great if you want to talk to incompetent recruiters who just throw as much shit at positions openly advertised on the web in the vain hope something sticks (it doesn't, their e-mails go straight in the junk folder)
tidal moth
@gloomy hill another thing, even if you're aiming to become a designer I recommend also going into software engineering/CS/SA
vocal meadow
Crystals are magical
daring parrot
so linkedin... connect with your coworkers, not recruiters
tidal moth
recruiters connect with you whether you want it or not
you're not adding them
they have the premium thing that allows them to stalk any profile and message you cold
daring parrot
they message you, not connect
tidal moth
semantics
vocal meadow
Stalking crystals
gloomy hill
@tidal moth at the moment I'm connecting with both trying to build a presence online sharing articles, it's kind a difficult for me since I don't have an education or previous experiences on the industries
daring parrot
then it's semantics that you're going to miss my point 🤷 stay connected with old coworkers so years after you both leave the mutual workplace they can ping you and see if you're interested in some stuff their current company is doing
if you just pick up linkedin every 5 years and hope it's going to be a worthwhile experience.... it's not 
tidal moth
sounds like you're moving goalposts but whatevs
daring parrot
no, you jumped in at me before I even clarified 🤣
vocal meadow
LinkedIn is kinda a weird and desperate place to maintain communication on
tidal moth
you were responding to an opinion of why people don't use linkedin
you can't get around recruiters being there
hence why people don't use it
daring parrot
🤷 I'm not keeping old managers in my phone contacts or facebook or hoping they keep the same email
yes recruiters will be inevitable but that doesn't mean it's a complete waste of time
vocal meadow
Yea, I mean it’s a nice phone book
ashen lynx
Farm quickly, before they fixed it.
vernal wolf
$150k in San Mateo is like $120k in a decent part of Los Angeles
which is like $50k in Montana
gentle stone
did someone call my name?
vocal meadow
i feel like offering a range on a posting is strange
might as well say 150k-3 billion
honest cipher
that range is actually legit
but its on the range of "experienced" guy as senior
vs the "absolute legend" senior
vocal meadow
How sure are you on that?
honest cipher
because the true top level guys at stuff like google and openAI do earn million of dollas of salary
vocal meadow
wonder if they accidently program themselves out of work
honest cipher
too busy creating starcraft bots
fickle hatch
Employing people that expensive isn't a great idea
Increases the putting your eggs in one basket risk (if the person dies in a car crash, your company might be ruined sorta thing)
Not a financial risk I mean, but an organizational risk to have someone with a skillset of that kind
plucky hatch
the right candidate is always worth 150k, but if you think you are that guy, then you are not that guy.
fickle hatch
I don't care about salary, but if someone wants me to work for them, they better have a good project/solid idea/something where I can be useful to the fullest
vernal wolf
employing someone at that salary when you have a budget of 200k is stupid
employing someone at that salary when your budget is 10 million is fine
fickle hatch
I'll write you control software for space rockets for even $20k if you let me have full control over testing & development
vernal wolf
you should charge more :p
fickle hatch
@vernal wolf I will charge more if my scope will be more limited and the tasks I'll work on will be less interesting, that's always been my secondary logic
shut tree
@fickle hatch can i press the red button for 2k$?
fickle hatch
Primary logic was always "uhhhh lets just pick some market average and whatever"
@shut tree Dude, I'd let you press it for free if it was under my supervision 😛
fickle hatch
Oh. No, I would not hire you for pushing button for $2k
I would not trust you to have full sense of responsibility for pressing the red button if you were only paid $2k
shut tree
but i could be red button supervisor mayB?
fickle hatch
Nope
plucky hatch
can i design the button?
fickle hatch
Yes. The button design would be verified many times as part of any healthy project (as big as a space rocket)
So the responsibility demand there is low
daring parrot
sounds like it's a pretty R&D heavy position, 150k seems like a totally reasonable low end
assuming the typo is actually 165k though, that's a pretty tight bracket 🤔
devout saddle
I just want a job and yall out here talking 6 figuresp
honest cipher
@fickle hatch keep in mind google truly has "fuck you" levels of money
so they can afford 10 million dollas in salaries to have a team of the 20 brightest minds in the world of AI
just having those guys working and researching for you vs working for a rival is worth it
google deals with the thousands of millions no issue, spending 20 million on budget for a cutting-edge AI research lab with best people and best hardware is peanuts
devout saddle
Google made stadia and thought it was funna work out. They have more than “fuck you” money lol
devout saddle
And they still were like “yeah lets do it”
Google has what I like to call “fuck you and your whole family” money
Its the next level of money
ocean harbor
is it just me who thinks it's weird to ask for software engineer on the position of data scientist? 😄
dense heath
having projects that lose money is a good way to avoid taxes if you have too much money
devout saddle
Boom boom
ocean harbor
their HQ is like in Belgium right now or Lux, they might be barely paying any taxes
not arguying, just saying it's that level where they might not even bother 😄
dense heath
if the tax isnt negative its too much
ocean harbor
+1
fickle hatch
@honest cipher yeah that's a fair note. I just always think about this from "what if I was running it" perspective
devout saddle
The last place I worked at ran out of funding so me and money a place has is big lol
honest cipher
@fickle hatch for this kind of people, their salary is "whatever my rivals pay, x1.2"
fickle hatch
Sadly I always end up working in niche things
bronze dew
niche things are often more interesting.. but they also almost always fail... unless you win the dev loto
nova tartan
Just a note that 150k in an expensive part of california still lives pretty damn well compared to someone making 50k in a low cost of living area, you end up with so much more money even after accounting for rent and stuff
fickle hatch
@bronze dew yes, but the best things humanity has today were born out of niche projects 😄
daring parrot
@nova tartan lots of people overlook that, although it's harder to move back to a 50k col area and "cash out" on the extras later though 😛
tidal moth
tbh really surprised google hasn't invested into space propulsion or going into space or buying off california at this point
devout saddle
Im looking into updating and making a new cover letter for game design. Any tips?
nova tartan
sound like a human being is very important
a lot of cover letters I read are very robotic
but don't take it too far obviously
devout saddle
Ok so not to show off but be real with them?
nova tartan
showing off is fine, but like
use conversational english rather than robotic business speak
devout saddle
Ahhhhh ok
How much of a page do you think a good cover letter is
I used to do 2 paragraphs
nova tartan
I get letters that say stuff like
"I want to help the company leverage its systems to improve profits"
and I just tune out
Keep it as short as possible, 2 paragraphs is probably fine
Hit the main points, sell them on you, done
devout saddle
Just curious? If I might ask. What do you hire for usually so I have a context where you’re coming from
nova tartan
software developers
devout saddle
Kk thank you
tidal moth
sell yourself on the design you're doing
like what you're capable of, what you've been doing before, preferably with examples
generally I dislike cover letters because it's one of the most inauthentic things ever
but every now and again someone manages to write a half decent one
@devout saddle
devout saddle
Thanks so much this is really helpful
daring parrot
I've had interviews from cover letters that are 3 or 4 lines long, just remember to establish some common ground: WHY are you a fit for this position?
Treat it as the glue that gets your resume to stick
fickle hatch
So far I wrote a cover letter just a few times and never ever got a feedback on them :<
And I always genuinely put my thoughts into them
bronze dew
btw.. you will almost always never get feedback on resumes anymore
I've read articles about why... people are afraid of being sued and they just don't have the time anymore... you best bet is to tick the keywords they want and have a nice description of yourself.. but not what you want to do... that will always change
ashen lynx
CVs - Shmivies. When you are needed, you will be hired. The outcome is reversed, when the first isn't true.
bronze dew
oook
fickle hatch
If you want to get shit done, send me a job offer :>
ashen lynx
Or undone. That works even better.
vocal elbow
Anyone else ever feel like they're still an amateur even with 8 years of experience coding in many different languages?
west sonnet
that just means you know what you're doing
Meet the Dunning–Kruger effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
vocal meadow
Been doing it a long time too hakai, there’s not a lot of getting used to learning new things constantly, and the field is pretty much that all the time. Best to just make sure what you do is rewarding beyond some title.
vocal elbow
lol good to know, glad I'm not the only one who feels that way 😄
vocal meadow
You miss a lot when you think you know it all
vocal elbow
that's very true
tried to teach myself full stack web development awhile back for a website for my game and that's an area of programming that seems like it's constantly changing dramatically
nova tartan
Industry standard has changed 3 or 4 times in major ways since I graduated so yeah
Industry standard changes a lot faster than companies update their codebases though
I've also learnt that people hyping up new services and frameworks are often filthy liars
It takes so long for new things to become stable and be worth using
vocal meadow
There are few standards really lol. Only thing we can all agree on is Z being up (amiright?).
flat gazelle
...
west sonnet
Shh
ashen lynx
Z is up, undeniably. They even used to color Z axis blue, because it always points into the sky. There are certain scattered sects, that deny this, and claim that Y should be up. Perhaps they see sky green? But they are a minority.
west sonnet
To think as babies we knew which direction up is. As game dev? No idea.
tidal moth
agreed
dense heath
nobody wants to give X a chance at being up?
nova tartan
The enemy's gate is down
wanton finch
hey, i am new here. I have seen so many of you guys work and ongoing progress with the games you are building and i love it all. I really appreciate the times you put into these projects and I wanted to know how did you get into the career of developing games? I just started today and I know I have a long way to go but I do want to know some things ahead of time so I can be prepared of the true world of development of gaming thank you guys!
tidal moth
always wanted to build stuff, started building stuff as a hobby, got hired for building stuff later
wanton finch
nah like i was being serious
wanton finch
its my first day on unreal
tidal moth
doing it until you're good at it
tidal moth
it's fine
wanton finch
but i know it should help me get into a spot where i can know to do things on my own
tidal moth
what role are you looking to fit into?
tidal moth
no like what part of game development do you want to be doing
wanton finch
well i don't know yet to be honest, i am guessing maybe level designing?
from this 2d scrollers i am watching
it looks pretty simple
and i have not done anything crazy yet
this is what i have so far
tidal moth
ok before we go on, what do you think level designing is?
wanton finch
well, just overall designing the structure of a level
buildings,
the overall setting
adding little pick ups and power ups and stuff like that
tidal moth
ok
in general just keep on practicing
the fact that you are already setting up your stuff and working with it is the way to go
start small, then you can always expand if necessary
your goals should be focused on finishing projects, whether they be levels or an entire game, that you can then show off as portfolio pieces
there are a couple of channels here that focus on design and level design, but honestly most stuff in level design, as in design in general, is tacitly learned through experience
set yourself some simple objectives for what you want to do, and then just work from there. starting from a simple 2d sidescroller is fine
wanton finch
thank you so much @tidal moth i am defiantly going to do that. for my first project which is the 2D scroller i was gonna finish the tutorial and then start adding my own things I should start giving myself objectives. My objectives right now though are finishing this tutorial and then adding my own stuff and revising it to my own liking.
he has a castle themed setting
i want to add a cyber punk type of theme to it, but maybe that's too hard but i will find out
tidal moth
keep in mind level design is not art
so aesthetic isn't really something that you will want to focus on
blockouts are fine, and you'll be fine just using them for the majority of the time
west sonnet
Indeed. Look into whiteboxing
tidal moth
once everything is blocked out, you can consider getting some marketplace assets or other stuff and giving your world a look
but until then it's not even worth caring about
especially not at this level
that part is usually called "set dressing", and unfortunately many people have the wrongful impression that this is what level design is all about when in fact it's something that is mostly done by artists after a design has created a blockout
wanton finch
So what are blockouts?
tidal moth
what you have done in the video
rough shapes that make out the gameplay flow of a level
west sonnet
think of design as the art of fun (or other experiences)
wanton finch
Ah, i see
tidal moth
yeah you're a fungineer
wanton finch
well i am about to get to the part where he adds the buildings
and stuff like that
where would i go if i wanted to use different things
tidal moth
it's fine to follow the tutorial for now, but just keep in mind that you can do everything just using the grey boxes you have been using up until now
tidal moth
if you're going to have enemies, considering where those enemies are in a level is for instance one of the main tasks for level design
wanton finch
so what will be the best approach is finish the tutorial and then start revising
and adding things that i want and stuff
tidal moth
once you finish I would suggest you plan for how much stuff you want to add and how many levels you want to make
then do some paper designs and implement them
wanton finch
alright, i appreciate it so much! @tidal moth if i ever need some constructive criticism, or help on anything may i @ you?
tidal moth
uh sure
manic vigil
its cuz of school
they were like
look at this graph
on a 2d graph y is thought of as up
instead of forward
vocal meadow
Out the camera is different than out the map though
tidal moth
I mean z up is one thing, but there are people out there for whom y is forward
vocal meadow
Unless there is sarcasm there it’s all relative. North is up on flat maps, away from earths crust is up on flying pebble in space
tidal moth
think before you speak
https://tenor.com/view/this-guy-get-aload-of-this-guy-waynes-world-mike-myers-wayne-campbell-gif-12963106
flat gazelle
At this point in the discussion someone tends to post this: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/952661474501111808?s=19
Twitter
And point out that pretty much all proprietary engines use y up. But if your career is limited to just one engine, this is a very good hill to die on.
west sonnet
Z is totally up. I refuse to think North is up 😜
ashen lynx
In development, your duty is not to re-learn coordinate system of your competitors, but make sure that they get used to yours!
ashen lynx
Could likewise be a person, who is half way into the ground, with only his legs showing.
west sonnet
The handstand that determines the fate of the digital world
nova tartan
just open up all the engine files and...
plucky hatch
what do you mean by 'up'?
fickle hatch
Up, the opposite of left
tidal moth
surely you mean the enemy of left
shut tree
Y is up in sidescrollers
its not really wrong, its justy areally bad pick to put Y up in a 3vector
L A P or something would have been a better pick 😛
heavy dust
Yo @lilac walrus put good word in for me at Epic. I have a few years as a dev, worked in the industry for 2 years in brand/community management/marketing and I almost done with my MBA. What more could epic want from someone who they can put into a low salary position?
lilac walrus
I don't work for Epic ¯_(ツ)_/¯
(but I suspect Epic generally want experience, and may not have that many junior level positions)
tidal moth
What more could epic want from someone who they can put into a low salary position?
actual work experience and a solid portfolio? 😄
nova tartan
A few years as a dev sounds like work experience
tidal moth
I suppose for a junior marketing person, though I'm not sure if they're looking for something like that
or a regular marketing person
heavy dust
I have a few years at companies larger than Epic Games, and my old boss used to work at Epic.
I also live down the street.
On top of that I do have a few years of game development experience if that helps.
tidal moth
I think the point is skill transference isn't really in your favor
heavy dust
Hmm I wonder what skill they need that I don't have, I'd have to look into it.
Working at a larger game company than them seems to be a big thing though.
daring parrot
why?
tidal moth
if you're entering into any production or product role, then production experience
heavy dust
I don't want to make video games at Epic.
daring parrot
would you want an IBM engineer to come join your startup based on their IBM credentials alone 🤔
tidal moth
fair enough
I don't think you'll find a lot of people with that kind of experience here that will be able to help you out
we're mostly devs here
not business people
heavy dust
I'm both. That's what I think makes me an interesting candidate.
If it helps, my previous title was a production management title.
I'll check their job offers for now and see if I line up, but honestly I want to wait a little while at my current company before moving on elsewhere.
Oh wow they have my exact title in China.
Well I won't get my hopes up for now but I'll give it a little time.
tidal moth
what kind of production experience did you have did you say?
heavy dust
I worked with the product manager and social media team to represent the product from conception to delivery. It's the same thing the folks at Epic do for all of their products or services essentially - that's what I did.
I currently work with multi-million dollar contracts and own those business relationships from my company to another. Epic is hiring for this position at the moment according to their job listings.
I will build up my experience so that I'm eligible for a senior-level position and then I'll probably send Epic another application. By that time I'll have the certifications that I'd like to earn.
heavy dust
@vocal meadow why?
vocal meadow
Smash bros
nova tartan
What certifications are there for business management?
tidal moth
business, business++, super business 2 extended edition
pastel estuary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT1JnE0O3Ws
hehe, funny but informative for those who have a hard time finishing content.
plucky hatch
So if you are looking for a career in business administration, a Master's Degree in Business Administration is usually required or a very good start.
terse terrace
I got a request for more information from Epic Megagrants - would anyone be willing to help a firefighter with some advice on how to respond?
ashen lynx
Respond as is. They love simulation stuff(everyone does), assuming you are doing somewhat close.
terse terrace
@ashen lynx sent you a PM
ashen lynx
I am no expert in receiving megagrants ><
west sonnet
Can I dm you too? 😛
ashen lynx
Can you ?
median copper
Hi friends,
I m from India I made a game for mobile platform this is my first game I like to contact Voodoo publishers through their website. Is there anyone have experience with Voodoo publishers.If so can u tell me how was the experience and how to approach them.
rare plaza
Is udemy is a good place to buy Unreal Engine tutorials?
pastel estuary
depends on the tutorial :p
daring parrot
But yes there are good ones there. Gamedev.tv's courses is where I got my start
terse terrace
I got a request for more information from Epic Megagrants - would anyone be willing to help a firefighter with some advice on how to respond?
quartz tide
mystic storm
rare plaza
Thanks now if one vanilla would come back online I can use my prepaid visa to buy a course. @daring parrot it always says 24 hours at a low price. No way am I paying 200 dollars for a tutorial.
merry tartan
Not sure why you would pay for tutorials when so many free ones are out including the ones from Epic
nova tartan
The only reason to pay for a course would be to like
Force yourself into a structure similar to school so you actually do it
Kind of like how if you sign up for a class on something and go attend it you can't just put it off
rare plaza
@merry tartan you may be right but I thought I would give it a try and see if it is worth it. It only cost me 12.00 , if it works for me then I will be inclined to buy more.
merry tartan
@nova tartan I haven't gone to school in 31 years and was never much for book learnings.
I was lucky though I got hired at 19 and was around people I could learn from. We had no information to grab from the net so we had to just bang our heads on keyboards until we figured it out.
terse terrace
@merry tartan I've found they help streamline the process into learning more comprehensively. I agree that Epic's livestreams, some of them at least, can teach a beginning a lot, but a course that covers everything and treats each lecture as a continuation of the overall design objective, is even more helpful. Those courses when you build a FPS from scratch, for example are what I'm talking about.
daring parrot
Yep, using epic tutorials (at least before their centralized academy, which I haven't used yet) was very piecemeal
fickle hatch
I had to learn to learn on my own too
merry tartan
I just went through them one by one from the epic site then when that was over, I started searching for things I wanted for my game, and then seemed to find 3 or 4 things that sort of gave me a clue of what to do and figured out the rest on my own.
fickle hatch
There wasn't any opportunity to study aerospace engineering in the country I grew up in
So I had to pirate books and stuff to study on my own, scour interent for bits of technical information and tech reports and stuff
merry tartan
but I have also been working for over 27 years before that and shipped a shit ton of games so I am not a normal case.
daring parrot
good that worked out for you @merry tartan, but paid tutorials are a very useful resource still 👍 especially if you're breaking in and don't quite know what you don't know yet
fickle hatch
Be nice and have a spark and I'll give you a personal tutorial for free if it's gonna be something fun
I love teaching people and never have enough 'students'
merry tartan
Paying for it would seem to indicate it has value to a group that would hire you, I would count that against someone that was interviewing for a job because it means they dont have enough self discipline to figure it out with out that cruch. Also if I had already experienced someone that couldn't hack in a production environement with that experience it would be an instant no. Which is the way it used to be with "video game" schools. So many terrible devs came out of knowning nothing at first but it did get better over time.
daring parrot
the mind boggles
merry tartan
If the lessons came from devs that were considered AAA talent I would give it value.
daring parrot
are you hiring the tutorial or the applicant? 🤣
merry tartan
I have never done them or looked at them so I have no idea what they are.
So you are saying those who can't do teach?
daring parrot
I'm saying they can be a worthwhile learning resource
merry tartan
First before I go down this path another step are you selling any of these things yourself?
daring parrot
you got me, I'm a shill for Big Tutorial 
ashen lynx
Paid tutorial has an advantage of usually being a on-piece course, where you are being hand-held from start to finish. In some cases it replaces motivation. Spending your preciousness bucksies can be a motivation itself too. But tutorials, as a learning path, is pretty terrible in the long run. You are likely to pick quite a bit of misconceptions on the way.
merry tartan
And the next question is have you gotten paid for work that has returned the value you have invested into them? if so great.
daring parrot
@ashen lynx agreed, they're very good to "kick things off", but after that you need to step up and set your own path
which may or may not include evaluating other courses/tutorials on their merits 
merry tartan
The first step would be to figure out what you want to build, and the shortest path to doing that badly and then learn from it and improve. If you have no goal than you have no real path.
ashen lynx
Yeah.. well.. the world somehow survived without tutorials until recently 🙂
daring parrot
I'd argue they've been around in some form or another for a loooong time 🙂
ashen lynx
Perhaps.
merry tartan
I have seriously been trying to figure out how to build games for over 42 years since I was 8 years old on my apple 2, I would type in all the code from magazines and not understand why it worked but I would start breaking it or trying to add to it and then things would sort of make a little more sense. I know that everyone learns in different ways for me I had to figure out the best way for me to learn, which I know is an odd ball way of going about it. I wasn't good at sitting still and listening to people, I found it boring. When I was trying to do it myself and could perfom the actions I found it a great way to learn. I accept and understand everyone has a way to learn that is best for them.
daring parrot
code from magazines? sounds like a tutorial 🤔
merry tartan
it wasnt they would include a floppy disc that had the code working already and had it listed over many pages sort of explaining some of it, but I was too young to understand it would ask older kids what it meant and just kept trying to figure it out.
Epic had a wiki even on Unreal 1 but it took 3 of us programmer, artist and designer to get a weapon into that engine. Things are much easier now.
daring parrot
If one person can add a weapon into the engine it sounds like a plus
west sonnet
uh?
vocal meadow
kinda zero to one hundred there. Kansas
carmine siren
That is correct @merry tartan, please revisit rule #1 of this server in #old-rules
daring parrot
nothing happened here, everyone stand still and the mods can't see us
carmine siren
Thank you for acknowledging your mistake.
fickle hatch
@daring parrot how can I also shill for the big tutorial
I want a piece of that sweet pie
daring parrot
get in line, I'm still trying to cash out 🤣
fickle hatch
If you pay me a scamillion dollars, I'll help you cash that out
cursive mist
anyone wanna make me a main menu
west sonnet
#looking-for-talent read pins
cursive mist
i already have a post up
west sonnet
Then please use the right channel and don't spam
plucky hatch
Não há um estúdio que permite o uso de blueprint? @_@
vocal meadow
provavelmente, eu não conheço ninguém.
west sonnet
Vi pequenos estúdios independentes usarem apenas plantas. Mas a maioria usa c ++ e blueprint juntos.
vocal meadow
Eu gostaria de falar portugues em vez disso, apenas mexo os dedos no computador do meu celular.
fazer plantas pode ser uma posição em um estúdio. talvez programador blueprint seja um cargo?
vocal meadow
Makes sense, it’s fairly different from traditional programming and helpful to have experts that know how to use it properly.
flat gazelle
Paid courses simply means it's likely that more time and effort has gone into them. If Pluralsight wouldn't have paid me to create my explosion course, I would have had to do other things that actually brought in money. They in turn make their money back by selling access to said course. For a poll, you are welcome over the the rtvfx server and see how many of the people there, currently in the industry, found it useful/worth the money.
heavy dust
That’s the task at hand. You won’t get the experience or finish the quest if you don’t.
plucky hatch
The value of education can become clouded by expectations.
flat gazelle
This quest has been finished at least 20 times in this channel alone. I think you can handle it with an Npc. Let us know if you get stuck
vocal meadow
I had no schooling or training, got started with just hl2sdk and ut2k4 mods. I learned basically exactly what I needed to when I needed to.
I would hope schools teach you more about things you don't need to know
kindred mason
They do
vocal meadow
Feeling like you have to reinvent the wheel on things because of lack of understanding is a thing
kindred mason
Especially if you are starting from nothing
I learned a lot of the art side (even non-gamedev related art) from going to SCAD
I would never have learned any of that on my own
But you won't learn everything you need to learn at school. But you won't learn everything online either 😉
vocal meadow
Yeah that would be the attractive part of game dev school. Things like design docs and all that, these are relatively new concepts to me lol (at least in as far as me using them)
Yeah that sounds nice
kindred mason
Yeah, that's what SCAD did during my time there
I basically got a broad approach to gamedev, learning a little about everything in the pipeline
Which is nice in one way, since then you're able to get a feel of what you really want to do when you graduate, what you want to focus on during your time there and beyond.
However, on the flip side, if you really want to focus on something, you'll need to go out of your way to do it in your own time like I did.
@plucky hatch Yes, I think that's one of the biggest issues I see from people writing on here or when they "have a bad experience with school", their expectations are usually this: I'll learn everything I need to to make any game I want or I'll learn everything I need to to get my dream AAA job after graduation (or be able to get any job they want)
daring parrot
College did not have a Science Based Dragons elective, how worthless
brazen grove
Now anyone please tell me 'what is the future of game development'?? People say that future is of machine learning, data science, blockchain and stuff, though i honestly don't believe on what some guys say like 'in future game dev is gonna be completely done by machine learning' simply because it needs you knowledge about art which a computer can not simply replicate. So is GD basically gonna have a good future?? What are going to be the biggest changes in the industry by that time??
west sonnet
It’s an industry with a long list of disciplines. Which are you referring to specifically
west sonnet
One of the current trend is proceduralism. Procedural animation, mesh, landscape, dynamic audio, etc. This doesn’t mean easy development of course. Creating the tool is just as big of a time sink and requires much greater technical specialization.
vocal meadow
Yea proceduralism is definitely the thing now.
plucky hatch
@brazen grove I'm going to keep it simple as best I can. In simplest form a video game has two layers:
- How it works: handled by programmers
- How it looks: handled by artists
I'm trying to make a point, please excuse the extreme generalization
a while back I successfully ported content from Bioware engine to Bethesda Engine and Unreal engine.
In its simplest form, I basically taught a robot some basic inner workings of serialization and deserialization.
The end result was that I was able to play quests and dialogues from Bioware game in Bethesda engine and Unreal engine, without a human being actually using an editor.
The actual proof of concept is very basic and limited, but it does prove a point: there was no human being needed beyond the basic teaching of serialization and deserialization between file formats between videogame engines...
tldr;
AI is awesome 🙂
west sonnet
The future is more tools. As it always been. Someone gotta create the bots after all 😜
vocal meadow
I agree with HighTide
brazen grove
but c'mon ai can't replicate art
vocal meadow
ML is misinterpreted a lot to be something to replace people
brazen grove
kindof
west sonnet
Look into Houdini
plucky hatch
@vocal meadow It does replace people, currently not ALL the people 🙂
vocal meadow
ML is the way we find answers to questions we don't know how to solve.
Its not artificial intelligence
tidal moth
procedural generation in 99% of cases is garbage when it comes to design
west sonnet
Isn’t for questions one never had? 😜
brazen grove
I wanted to try ML but it used some advanced math
vocal meadow
probably lol
brazen grove
i didn;t study that bit
plucky hatch
@brazen grove Yeah without Bellman and Markov understanding, it's gonna be: say what? 😄
brazen grove
though what should probably be the position of GD in market
west sonnet
It isn’t one size fits all black magic that’ll take your jerb, you’ll be fine
brazen grove
after a few years
plucky hatch
Also, in case you are interested to see the end result , anyone can contact me directly and I can provide some links with the proof of the successful quests/dialogue ported
vocal meadow
ML is not advanced math
brazen grove
i am in 8th standard
it requires some dosen't it
Well I wanted to know the scope of GD in upcoming 6-7 years
west sonnet
Oh
vocal meadow
machine learning is literally: try every possible outcome and record what works
fickle hatch
ML is great at merging chunks of data into one coherent output
west sonnet
Industry changes, new resources become available, etc
The future: you must learn and adapt
Same as last year or the year before that 😜
plucky hatch
@west sonnet the past: If you're still here then you must have learned and adapted 🙂
west sonnet
You’ll never stop learning
vocal meadow
Learning is the key
brazen grove
Boom(taken from ML tut)
west sonnet
replace your brain with a computer and you'll get ML. Easy
brazen grove
only if I won't die in the process
west sonnet
can't die if you can't live
vocal meadow
living is good
vocal meadow
would relax with the death and jobloss fears though
nova tartan
but c'mon ai can't replicate art
It absolutely can, when it gets sufficiently advanced.
We already have it composing music and generating characters.
And machine learning is advanced math, or more accurately statistics. It does not naively just try every answer and record what works, that is completely unfeasible.
vocal meadow
Point of ml is to try all possibilities, but yeah math is used to avoid redundancies. Perfect ml would test every outcome though, methodically skipping tests is where you could say it’s statistics
nova tartan
Machine learning aims for convergence
I guess you could say you want to test every outcome but that will not happen without a dramatic shift in what we are capable of.
Current algorithms have mathematical properties that can prove "This is what you want as your model, it's not really getting any better, we have converged on the right answer"
fickle hatch
"Compositing music" haha
More like creating infinite permutations of the datasets it was trained on
It's very useful for mundane work, but you're not going to get far on trying to make new assets with datasets you've bought along with the software
Post-processing your original music into something higher quality would be the more realistic and useful application here
vocal meadow
ML is cool yeah, just meant that its a utility more than anything else
normal geode
Hey what would you advise aspiring graphics programmers to look into
burnt basalt
Hey everyone. I love tinkering in UMG mainly, but I am not an artist. Are there positions for UMG/Blueprint tinkerers out there? What kind of job titles would be looking for that? How deep a portfolio would you recommend before applying for such positions? Thanks for any and all advice and comments.
west sonnet
UI programmer
tidal moth
UI designer as well I suppose
burnt basalt
Are designers expected to be artists on top of the UMG work? Are programmers expected to do C++ on top of Blueprints?
lilac walrus
UI has two branches; UX Designer and UX Programmer
one is responsible for the design of the experience, the other implementation. UX Designer is usually more art orientated
though it is possible separate artists may exist in some cases
burnt basalt
Thanks all. Are there intro UX Programmer positions out there where I could get hired with good blueprint xp but not a lot of C++ xp? Art will be harder for me to develop, though I can sketch out wire frames and that.
lilac walrus
probably not - it's quite rare for games to only use the blueprint side of UMG, because frankly it's pretty lacking
I don't think I've worked on a single game that didn't roll an arse ton of custom stuff in C++
burnt basalt
Cool. Thanks!
cursive spoke
Anyone here based in Toronto? I'm looking to get to know some UE4 devs who live/work here.
strange jolt
anyone in here?
bronze dew
You should look for Dev meetups @cursive spoke
brazen grove
How much time would it take me to master unreal's c++?
tidal moth
a year++
vocal meadow
definition of master is needed
tidal moth
@vocal meadow are you saying you can't gauge his skill level purely by his presence? amateur
vocal meadow
lol
nah I just meant unreal is a big thing
you don't need to know all the c++ to get what needs doing
tidal moth
it's true
flat gazelle
I'd go as far saying nobody has mastered it all.
vocal meadow
If question is just reading and memorizing the code, it will take a lot of time yeah
brazen grove
to be knowledgeable about most of topics in unreal's c++.
vocal meadow
a year++
vocal meadow
cranz brings a good point up though, everyone learns at different paces and everything
brazen grove
And yeah not memorizing the code, classes and rest but...... You get it right
vocal meadow
but just being knowledgable of 'things' yeah
tidal moth
we don't know where you are in your expertise either. it's obviously faster if you know a programming language, and even better if you know cpp already
brazen grove
I completed java in about 2 weeks and advance java in 1 week(sockets and things not the web dev with java). Any idea how much time it would take me to complete unreal's c++?
tidal moth
in almost all cases first knowing the architecture and pipelines for what you want to do is what you want to do
gentle stone
you don't 'complete' a programming language
brazen grove
I've got some advance c++ in pocket
plucky hatch
its more about the journey than the destination
brazen grove
Ok so 2 years to learn to code and make a game in unreal
tidal moth
well if you know what a weak pointer is and what its use is, can do basic inheritance and interface work, then it might be a year++
brazen grove
I've got that all... Anything else, except for math and physics, I should do
tidal moth
most of it is really just learning the structure of UE4's code, rather than learning it class for class
vocal meadow
you've gotta unlearn stuff with c++ on ue4 too
uht likes to step in and dominate the trust the language usually offers
gentle stone
it depends on the code you actually want to write and how good you want the architecture to be
tidal moth
I mean I just assumed gameplay programming level here, not engine level
brazen grove
Ok... In how much time did you guys got comfortable with it
gentle stone
if you want to do some rather basic gameplay then it's not going to be that hard with some programming background
brazen grove
advance gameplay
tidal moth
well what kind of advanced gameplay?
building systems and system dynamics? AI and behaviors?
gentle stone
I've been doing tools dev for a bit more than a year now and am pretty comfortable with navigating through the source code and writing custom tools
brazen grove
yep...
gentle stone
havent done much c++ gameplay though
brazen grove
I come from a background of android ios dev, java, c++ and mostly software dev and hacking. I've just stepped in the GD industry
like 6 months when I started using unreal
And will there be a rise in an unreal's c++ developer salary in upcoming 7-10 years??
tidal moth
I mean assuming you know the architecture, building systems is pretty easy, AI and behaviors can be harder from the little I've dabbled, but that's mostly from understanding the underlying framework in my basic opinion.
just the usual really, don't think unreal programmers are paid more than others
but as with everything, the more technical you are the higher the wage
brazen grove
what about multiplayer??
gentle stone
Unreal is pretty much on the rise, assuming they won't drop the ball demand for ue4 programmers should increase. How much, can't say
tidal moth
so render programming > core tech / tools > everything else
vocal meadow
sigh, the business of selling to people making games is strong huh
tidal moth
but apparently render programmers might as well be unicorns for as often as they can be found
flat gazelle
My kingdom for a vfx coder
brazen grove
In which countries is GD most popular, specifically unreal
west sonnet
What would be the difference between a render programmer and a graphic programmer?
tidal moth
don't think there's a discernable difference
west sonnet
Good to know
vocal meadow
maybe one would be more on delivery to the gpu and other more on shaders?
tidal moth
at least I've heard the terms used interchangeably
flat gazelle
same
gentle stone
Unreal is pretty popular in USA and Japan
tidal moth
@vocal meadow I suppose you could make that distinction, but I feel shaders have become more of a tech art domain
vocal meadow
what would you call a shader programmer?
tidal moth
that
tidal moth
oof
brazen grove
So I should more be going to not to mug up classes of unreal and rather get comfortable with unreal's environment. And that would take about 2 years to master....
gentle stone
do what you want to do in Unreal using c++, the journey is going to lead you to where you want to be
west sonnet
What is mastery
tidal moth
haha I was gonna say
vocal meadow
that was my question too HighTide
tidal moth
I mean there's no real certificate available for mastering unreal, it's not an achievement you can unlock
vocal meadow
yeah
tidal moth
experience is measured in years used, especially when collaborating with others
brazen grove
I hope retirement is not what you did after learning unreal's c++. Dude, you are basically asking what would a game developer do after learning game development
tidal moth
because if you get hired you're going to have to conform to other people's code
brazen grove
Make games of course
flat gazelle
So mastering isn't necessary
I haven't mastered anything and I have spent quite a bit more than 2 years.
vocal meadow
plus its a constant moving target you need to stay on top of
brazen grove
i'm of 13, I've got plenty of time for everything
flat gazelle
What you are after is enough experience to get a first role.
gentle stone
out of interest, what have you done glad?
flat gazelle
Hehe, I got my first job in the industry when Procoder was learning to turn over.
brazen grove
lol
tidal moth
glad got that big d energy
flat gazelle
Big Dev?
gentle stone
:D
flat gazelle
Thought as much
plucky hatch
if you are only 13 then definitely dive into c++ and ue4, you will learn it quickly and the skill will translate to many other fields outside of game development.
tidal moth
and also don't worry about setting yourself goals like mastering unreal in 2 years
just try to make an actual product
or a system
gentle stone
I got my first job without properly applying by sending a small company my thesis for graduation and they just asked me instead. At that point I did Unreal c++ for ~half a year, Unreal overall for 2 years and programming for about 5. Sadly I don't know what tells me about my qualifications because, well, small company. For reference
tidal moth
or an AI
brazen grove
Learn unreal's c++, sculpting in blender in about 4 years. Ok... I'll take my chances on that one. Though I've got plenty of exp in other industries, coding since was of 9
west sonnet
(Also not possible)
tidal moth
that was partly the implication, the only outcome is disappointment and depression
the double d energy, if you will
brazen grove
I do IT stuff for fun, I never take it seriously.. Thank you guys though. Appreciated😇
flat gazelle
Edgy, when I started I got headhunted because I uploaded my horrendous reel on youtube. That doesn't really happen these days 😛
brazen grove
I uploaded one of the worst arch-viz to my artstation🙃
gentle stone
@flat gazelle I'd like to see it :)
west sonnet
Shut Glad and show them your sparkles 
vocal meadow
Amaze us
flat gazelle
Something slightly more recent: https://vimeo.com/208991722
Jeebus that's already 3 years old
gentle stone
damn, and I was thinking that the BF1 smoke from explosions looked so great back then. Turns out it was you lmao. Great job
sudden cloud
Not sure if this is the right spot for these questions, but my questions are about the job board.
anyone actually get hired to do a job that was paid?
How often is it that people get asked and accept job offers? (Paid or non-paid)
Ever had any bad experiences working with someone, if so how did it go down? (If you would like to share)
I'm mainly curious.
chrome bone
I have hired people from there probably a dozen time and a few still work with our studio full time today
so i would say provided you have a good portfolio there is a decent chance to find work there.
sudden cloud
@chrome bone thanks for replying I appreciate it, sounds cool thanks. 👌
I might whip up a portfolio and give it a whirl 🤓
tawdry elbow
Hows this looking can i get some feedback please
tidal moth
yes, um, 0 career
tawdry elbow
Whats that mean ?
tidal moth
it means you're in the wrong channel
tawdry elbow
oh lol
pastel estuary
#work-in-progress
opal mural
It might've been posted already but... https://community.wacom.com/a-gift-of-creativity-2-free-months-of-artstation-pro/?linkId=79560040
west sonnet
Wrong channel. Please read #more-resources
tidal moth
@lilac topaz tagging since there's no response
cloud folio
Hey, which studios do you guys know that work with UE4?
fickle hatch
I heard Epic Games might work with UE4
plucky hatch
Here in China NetEase and Improbable for sure, plus Tencent, probably, use unreal engine.
barren lotus
First Contact Entertainment, Squanch Games, Certain Affinity, Respawn
Wevr, Nickelodeon, and Activision
dusk anvil
pretty sure epic games created ue4 xD
urban stump
Nah UE4 was created by UE5
dusk anvil
you sure. i thought UE5 was what was hidden in area 51
kindred mason
@barren lotus Who is Squanch Games though?
But yeah, I mean. While there are definitely quite a bit of Indies, III, AA, AAA studios working with UE4, the vast majority of them are still stuck on Unity.
digital gate
@kindred mason Roiland's studio
kindred mason
Who's that?
barren lotus
Some guy who made a small cartoon called Rick and Morty
Half the studio is ex Epic folks since Tanya also co-founded it
digital gate
wait, what's that cartoon? 🤔
kindred mason
Who's Tanya though?
I've actually never watched Rick and Morty
But I do know the name from various memes
barren lotus
She was executive producer (if I recall correctly on title) on Gears of War titles and Fortnite
ashen lynx
The best way would be pursuing different career and establishing your own studio with the savings, when retirement time comes.
golden swift
Ü
tidal moth
@wanton finch if there are no team then there are no teams. the nature of the industry is that you go where the work is, not that the work comes to you
vocal meadow
Could you clarify what you mean by team @wanton finch ?
mental ruin
Online application - there's fields for:
Cover letter (Optional),
Current salary (Optional),
Salary expectations (Optional),
Any advice/best practice? I've filled out the usual (experience, education, uploaded resume etc.).
craggy nacelle
I'd always recommend filling optional fields where possible... although hard to say for those salary fields. If you can put other values than numbers, "negotiable" would probably be something I would put into it
mental ruin
:)))
nova tartan
For salary you can see if they will waste your time with a low offer, and also control the starting point for salary negotiation. They likely have an expectation of what they want to pay someone for this job and want to see if your expectations match theirs
craggy nacelle
Right click input box, change type to "text", fill in text lol
mental ruin
Numeric only unfortunately. I've put a fair value into the expected salary field.
craggy nacelle
(that actually sometimes works)
yeah I think Carthage is on the right track... I would not put a number less than what I'm willing to take into the box at the very least.
nova tartan
Yeah never lowball with the first number
And because raises tend to be percentage based, setting a low first number can cause tons of damage to your earnings years down the line
If you are going for a job where you stick around long enough for that to be a thing
lilac walrus
raises, in this industry 😄 ?
mental ruin
Thanks all, I appreciate the advice
One more question (I'm repeating myself, I know) - I only have one instance of work experience, and the game was unreleased. Need I mention this?
My Experience section in both my resume and online reads something like: 'Company Name, Unreleased Mobile Title (2018)'
(With relevant responsibilities/position held listed too of course)
tidal moth
yes
mental ruin
Seems to be the consensus, thanks!
formal birch
Hey people, i recently got accepted in an internship at a studio of about 10 people, being unpaid for the first few months. They're currently bootstrapping, so it's understandable that they can't really pay interns much. They told me that i will be put in the main team due to my portfolio (usually interns do their own projects) which to me is both good and bad. They also mentioned that they expect me to work 40 hours a week (9 to 5).
This sounds kinda exploitative. Is this normal? Is it fair for me to negotiate the working hours to them?
mental ruin
You're working a full time job for free. That's ludicrous.
barren lotus
In addition to negotiating salary do the same for stock options if they're available, I've had coworkers who never brought it up and had a harder time getting traction on it after they've been hired.
formal birch
Those are my thoughts as well :I thankfully i haven't signed the contract yet. How do i bring this up to the employer?
lilac walrus
tell them you're not interested in working hundreds of hours for free ¯_(ツ)_/¯
ashen lynx
Depends primary on what you think about it, if it is exploitative or not. If you have a sack of cash, and can afford that, seems totally fine. If you are really getting invaluable experience and knowledge, which, from the studio description is doubtful, it is also fine. In all other cases, you are doing worse for yourself and your future colleagues.
tidal moth
for a studio of 10 people it probably isn't worth it unless they're well known
it sounds very sketchy tbh
lilac walrus
a studio of 10 people doesn't have the resources to deal with an intern
lilac walrus
an intern is generally a net-loss for any company, so if their excuse is they have no money, well...
formal birch
If i have the time to find another opportunity, i would be saying that i'm not interested haha
lilac walrus
I'd argue that what you're being presented with is not an opportunity, at least not for you
formal birch
Although in a country like mine where GameDev industry isn't so developed, there's actually a lot of small studios accepting interns
Usually in situations like these, are there even room for negotiation?
lilac walrus
you can always try
ashen lynx
One can negotiate being able to sleep in the office. At least you will have some gain plus office space usage will be maximized.
formal birch
True, i should at least try discuss it with them first
Hahaha that's one way to put it
craggy nacelle
It really boils down to do you want to work for free or no... Assuming you were "maybe ok", I would try to negotiate a solid schedule, or ability to quit on the spot if you get a paid offer
by schedule I mean a schedule as to when you can expect to get paid
formal birch
I'm actually surprised local devs are like "yeah it happens here deal with it" when i talk about this. Meanwhile devs from US or EU are like "whoa that sounds illegal"
flat gazelle
No
lilac walrus
well, in a lot of the EU it is illegal
formal birch
that's a good advice, flexibility to quit is probably what i needed lmao
ashen lynx
Where local is this local though ?
flat gazelle
There are obviously gotchas with it here
craggy nacelle
I don't really hear of that happening here unless it's something that's part of the person's studies for their degree
formal birch
@ashen lynx South East Asia
flat gazelle
Yeah, in Sweden it's always students.
formal birch
@flat gazelle do you consider it exploitative in nature though?
west sonnet
Full time with no pay is insane
lilac walrus
in Poland as an example it's illegal to actually pay the interns - because their education institution pays them
flat gazelle
No
I don't expect my interns to deliver anything.
I do expect them to listen to everything the seniors say and learn enough for them to be hierable by the end of the internship so they can start earning the company back the money lost on training them
My time is worth more than the interns, so every hour I spend mentoring is time I'm not producing on a project. hence the net loss.
Not paying them allows the company to take a chance on someone not good enough for an entry level role, while the not good enough person gets a shot at learning from a live project with a mentor.
formal birch
So does that mean they must be hired after the internship ends? or is it only an expectation
flat gazelle
So far, I've trained two artists. Both got hired at the end of the internship as they had improved enough.
Not must, but a company won't take them in unless they really believe they can do so.
If there's no position open for them, they won't take in the intern
There are of course cases where the intern doesn't improve enough to be hireable
west sonnet
Are you speaking from a large studio?
flat gazelle
Yes
And then there are of course studios who abuse the whole system...
But that's the exception
vocal meadow
youch
lilac walrus
only large studios really have the resources to train, and subsequently the potential space to hire, interns
a ten man studio really doesn't fit that bill
west sonnet
Agree
flat gazelle
Yep
vocal meadow
they are at the position to take free intern work though right?
flat gazelle
That'd be the abuse I mentioned 😛
lilac walrus
and have low enough standards that it's good enough, heh
..all without providing said intern the benefit of the actual mentorship
flat gazelle
Again, when I personally take in an intern I don't expect them to deliver anything production worthy. If they do, great! Maybe we can shorten the internship. But that's not the point.
vocal meadow
idea is they get the portfolio cred at least or something and learning yeah? (these would be for sure things right?)
gentle stone
I never considered there would be people accepting such deals.. 🤔 always thought it's a myth
lilac walrus
no, it's pretty common
west sonnet
In context of the OP’s situation. This is most likely a case of the studio trying to exploit them.
lilac walrus
and so long as people keep taking said deals, it'll stay common
gentle stone
but why would anyone accept those deals? Certainly it's common knowledge that building up your skill should come first and that's what makes you get a proper job?
vocal meadow
worst i've seen is people working for stock options
lilac walrus
at least stock options have the potential to be worth something
vocal meadow
do they though? like it kinda depends
but yeah i mean, its not 'free' right away at least
west sonnet
It’s a competitive industry and large studios will take advantage of their reputation to get star struck employees willing to get hired for their “dream job”
vocal meadow
"Sign this 120 times and all your dreams will come true"
gentle stone
Maybe my perception is off. Is it common that even people with good skills have trouble getting a job in triple A?
west sonnet
Define good skill
gentle stone
someone who was formally educated and got a couple years of practical experience
west sonnet
Formal education means nothing in this industry
ashen lynx
that is not a skill
nova tartan
The main thing about an internship is that it is seen as training
If they aren't training you its not an internship, and it does not sounds like they will be training you but expect you to be a full standard team member
Sounds like a straight scam, tell them to go to hell imo
west sonnet
And experience isn’t a skill
gentle stone
well ok maybe I should reformulate: someone who has multiple things going for him: a) formally educated, b) practical experience (both personal projects and some work experience, not in triple A but some smaller efforts) and c) is good at what he does (be it tools programming, 3D art, animator, w/e)
ashen lynx
You need C and D only
gentle stone
what I do NOT mean is is someone who decided to dabble in Unreal for 2 years and the best he can come up with is jam-quality only
ashen lynx
a and b are least relevant
west sonnet
A) still means nothing 😜
gentle stone
what is d in this case deathrey?
ashen lynx
luck and random
nova tartan
For the programming parts formal education is often a requirement especially at a larger studio
vocal meadow
zing
nova tartan
No comp sci degree? You aren't making it past HR's first screening
west sonnet
Networking too
gentle stone
yeah @nova tartan that's what I figured but maybe I'm wrong?