laptops are not great for game programming though
#career-chat
leaden fulcrum
misty shadow
something that can run notepad++?
lilac walrus
if it's a decent programming course, a lot of time will be spent in Visual Studio
if it's games orientated, you'll probably be expected to run certain tools / editors at some point too
leaden fulcrum
Yeee my thaught thats why im asking here .
I know my way around PCS but dont have a clue when it comes to laptops/notebooks
misty shadow
contact the prof's/course admin and see what it's for?
misty shadow
amber is spot on if you want a comfy/doable ue4 rig
lilac walrus
aye, I would assume a desktop is sufficient - and that you'd have your tutorials inside a lab with all the software you need, and the lectures you wouldn't need a machine anyway
plucky hatch
when i went to school for computer science they had us all buy the same laptop. i contacted the school to let them know the laptop they wanted me to buy would not run the programs my classes wanted me to buy. i got nowhere. granted this was 1994, you may have more success.
Interesting saw a 'generalist' position near where I live for Epic. That's exactly what I am (apart from a musician). I'm probably not experienced enough but gave it a shot.
mystic hull
More importantly, dont feel down if you dont get it
It's really crucial to keep that spirit up, you'll get denied a lot at first if you dont have prior triple A experience 😛
plucky hatch
I won't. I'm not even 100% I want to work for a big company but might as well try.
tidal moth
entering into into a big company as a junior is definitely a young man's game
tidal moth
I'm just saying
no reflection on you
I was more thinking of how well I would handle or not handle being a junior again
plucky hatch
Also, the job is for Fortnite development. Ewww
tidal moth
sure beats warehouse work any day of the week
flat gazelle
And that right there, is the exact attitude that will keep you out of the industry
"So why do you want to work for us?"
"I don't really, I'm just out of options."
"Thanks for coming, never call again."
tidal moth
lmao "never call again"
mystic hull
😄
tidal moth
"don't talk to me or my son ever again"
I'm sorry I shouldn't make light of it
but yeah, @flat gazelle is right.
mystic hull
Since we're talking now, I wanted to know how much value you guys think developing an MMO server (although no triple A stuff here) adds to my portfolio 🤔
mystic hull
We're nearly into pre-alpha testing
Well, it's a small team so my role is a little hard to define
tidal moth
what are you most concerned with
mystic hull
but mainly, I coded the entire server
tidal moth
right
I think that's pretty solid
especially if you go into places that do live ops
and dev ops
mystic hull
Yeah we're getting there, not as easy as I had expected though 😅
honest cipher
if its an "MMO" with more than a dozen players and persistent servers, its pretty much an instant auto-hire at anything related
mystic hull
It's pretty much so, though we're not live yet sadly
It's also a bit of a weird genre, TD/RTS kind of mashup
It's also legit the first "professional" game job I have/had 🤷
plucky hatch
Um sorry did I say I don't really want to work in games? Maybe I just wouldn't actually shed my own blood to get in? Or am I not allowed to just be 'interested' in something and everybody is expected to be 'passionate' about everything even if their job is completely mundane?
flat gazelle
Being passionate about the job is pretty much a requirement these days as it's a quite competetive field.
Just kinda wanting it is'nt really enough.
mystic hull
I'd have to agree, you'd get by in other industries just fine, but not this one sadly
plucky hatch
At the end of the day being 'passionate' is a word I'd reserve for people close to me, not a job, no matter how interesting
Have you seen what David Mitchell says about passion?
It's a serious word and overused too much
mystic hull
Are you referring to one of the Ted talks?
plucky hatch
no david mitchell's soapbox he's a comedian
daring parrot
doesn't matter if he's not the one hiring you though 🤣
plucky hatch
I agree with it and it's funny
flat gazelle
Then I wish you the best of luck!
plucky hatch
thank you
flat gazelle
To offer an analogy before I leave. Consider professional athletes. For them it's a job that many people have as a hobby. Be that practicing or spectating. However, it's not the easiest thing in the world to become a professional athlete. People who kinda like playing football are very likely not going to do it as a profession.
Game development is similar even if it's not as extreme. (200k gamedevs in the US vs 5k professional athletes) Anyone can do it at home for kicks, but to get to where you have it as a profession does require drive or passion.
plucky hatch
If you can recognize how a job at Epic would be a step towards achieving a goal you are passionate about, it may help you be more motivated or passionate about it. Until you recognize that, try out some fake enthusiasm or drive while you go through the motions.
mystic hull
Fully against faking here, might as well just not try alltogether at that point
It's a burden, and it only helps you hate your job further
surreal sapphire
ehm if i know on 30% how epic games engine works , and i have around 70% understanding of its architecture( mostly 2.5 version, but i'm talking about the base) , how can i advertise myself ? my Skills , my knowledge, i guess for someone it would be needed ? HUh yeah, only way its your own PROMO project, but cmmon you do your projects in a team, and i dont have it =)) any suggestions ?
plucky hatch
@mystic hull longterm i agree, but if you think you will be motivated at some point, i would try pretending until you get there
mystic hull
Well, also the fact that people are usually educated enough to call through the bullshit 🤷
All it takes is to read your bodylanguage
Imo it just really hurts your chances, no matter the reason
plucky hatch
As much as I understand the analogy, there are some significant differences between sports and game dev.
You dont need necessarily to be the most skilled to work in games. Athletes dont have to build portfolios or keep up to date with technologies. Regular lay offs.
flat gazelle
I give up on this channel
mystic hull
Dont leave us 😢 (no sarcasm intended)
ashen lynx
Glad, channel is hopeless but not all of its occupants are !
mystic hull
Sadly true 🤔
Though, being one of those users for a decently long time, I'd argue people change 😅
mystic hull
I was born in 96 so I wouldnt know 🤷
plucky hatch
The design department us still as obscure and misunderstand as ever.
Art however changed quite a lot.
Much harder now to compete for jobs
mystic hull
It's much harder now to make good games
plucky hatch
In 2004... wasnt that hard to be a 3d artist
@mystic hull do you have link so i can look at your project?
mystic hull
the ceiling is always getting higher, you best it or you lose it
@plucky hatch Does linkedin work? 🤔
My current job is the only relevant game dev experience, so not that much
just a few generic jobs prior
plucky hatch
i meant the current one, it sounds interesting
mystic hull
Oh, well, I can't show it yet sadly, they'll let me talk about it after we go into private-testing hopefully 😂
plucky hatch
fair
mystic hull
It's a very weird project though, we're virutally non-existent. Not even a valid website yet 🤷
I think overall about 10 people know we even work on a game
We figured it's best to show up with something that works, rather than some fake hype
plucky hatch
not the way i would do it, but i can see the merits in that
I'm leaving retirement. I guess you can't escape what you are. We'll see how that goes...
mystic hull
Huh, you were retired? o.o
mystic hull
Ah, went indie?
plucky hatch
Family
working closer from home, something unrelated
I'm not really into the whole building a personality cult thing but I see nothing wrong with showing off the game itself and premarketing
mystic hull
Mhmm, makes sense
Well, you gotta have something to premarkert right
We're not particularly "known" either, so there's that
Once we have a good looking/sounding pre-alpha, we'll start the marketing
plucky hatch
maybe wait until you're sure you can finish the project before announcing it, otherwise might give yourself a bad rep right
mystic hull
I'm confident we'll be finishing it, been tough though
Not your typical benefits job, but it's one of those things that show the commitment you need to have to be able to get into this industry 🤷
plucky hatch
got to risk it if you want the biscuit
who needs benefits
The best way, I think, to gain visibility is just to produce content. And never say a word online...
😏
mystic hull
Ha, I certainly hope so! 😄
plucky hatch
best way to market a game is to build a fun game
mystic hull
Yep, I've also decided to work on a few hyper-casual online games on the side
to populate my non-existent portfolio 🤷
plucky hatch
Saying that I put my game on steam and it has done terribly, literally one player. So I think marketing is important. I'd say it's 3/10 game, but it works and isn't super laggy or buggy. I wanted to reach about 50 people, that would be a game made at a loss, but enough to motivate me next time.
mystic hull
Making games is hard man, I wouldn't even bother putting games on steam untill I have players prior
plucky hatch
Well then you need to market, I didn't market
plucky hatch
Actually, I don't know the first thing about it. Not sure whether I should market a bit for a mediocre game that has already been out 2 weeks.
Yeah itch, doesn't make money though
mystic hull
Steam is rather oversaturated, your game needs to be special to success there
plucky hatch
Devs have a limited approach to game business usually
you have a link satan?
Of course however I just wanted a few dozen, even just for player feedback
mystic hull
you have a link satan?
Did you just call him satan 😂
I think making games for money is the wrong way to approach it
plucky hatch
Sure it is important to market a game
But that depends on other things.
Do you think Valve has to work hard to market their games?
mystic hull
I'd be happy if my planned hyper-casuals made even 50$
plucky hatch
mystic hull
It's more of a build to be recognized kind of thing at first
plucky hatch
I'm still a beginner. At first I had no interest in money but ultimately I would like to be able to make enough from games to support myself, that's all
mystic hull
Then discipline, it's a tough cookie to crack really
That's where passion comes in
if you're passionate enough, you wont really care about the money until it starts flowing
Gotta build and build until you get there eventually
Passion & discipline
its soooo easy to give up
plucky hatch
well put it this way even if I made 1000 GBP from this game after deductions that's like < 10% of minimum wage. It's not about money it's just about reaching a few dozen people
mystic hull
You wont reach on steam unless your game is that good
plucky hatch
I don't care about 'striking it rich' just don't want to feel I am wasting my time
entrepreneurs do not get an hourly rate, so it is dangerous to think in terms of minimum wage, unless you are punching a clock for a check
mystic hull
Yeah tbh, I would suggest you change your approach completely
you're not wasting your time if you're learning
and it's a process as anything else in life, it takes time and you get better at it the more time you give it
you should probably watch some of the GDC talks about indies
plucky hatch
yes that is how I thought for 2 years. I had no interest in money because I was such a beginner I was under no illusions anyone would buy stuff from me. After a couple years I just wanted to do something more ambitious
It's still quite mediocre of course
mystic hull
If it helps, I've been trying to become a game dev since I was like 15 or something 😄
I've only recently even come close to it
plucky hatch
And my PC limits me, it's a massive headache doing artistic stuff because it slows my computer slow
so much*
you are doing better than I blue, and i had a 20 year head start
mystic hull
@plucky hatch
My gaming/work rig broke a couple years ago, I hit a financial block
this is what im making my MMO on
@plucky hatch That's really good to know aha! 😄
plucky hatch
I painted my neighbors house and bought an electric guitar and a great gaming rig. probably turned over $100 an hour on that job.
mystic hull
Wow that's worse than mine 😅
plucky hatch
It's 10 years old
mystic hull
I painted my neighbors house and bought an electric guitar and a great gaming rig. probably turned over $100 an hour on that job. this though
You gotta work your ass off for it
plucky hatch
apparently you can pay for PCs in installments so that's not too much an issue I am just lazy
mystic hull
You just solved it, there we go
progress 😄
For real though, making games is one of the best things ever
If you really want to get there, dont give up 🤷
plucky hatch
well of course if I was rich or we had a more socialist system (sorry gotta go there) I would have more free time to do this shit. Same goes with everyone. If there was a benefits system I'd probably use it, maybe work 10 hours a week for some random guy and work on games. But that's not our reality
mystic hull
I won't go there, but I'll tell you this, I currently live in Egypt
officially a 3rd world country
plucky hatch
that is why i provided the house painting story. i work on average 40 hours a month.
mystic hull
I hit a financial block so hard I ahd to drop out of university & whore myself out on freelancing websites for about a year or two
Guaranteed everyone else in this channel can share a similiar story
plucky hatch
What kind of freelance work
mystic hull
Anything that ends with dev
anything I could do generally
At some point I ran ads on facebook for people
plucky hatch
I'd be ok doing that, just not more than 50 hours
mystic hull
and replied to inbox messages lol
You can't give life some constraints and ask her to go by them really
you just do with what you're given
plucky hatch
Maybe I'd turn down the ad jobs if I had a choice
mystic hull
if I had a choice
You always have a choice though, it's just one you dont want to take 🤷
plucky hatch
Well anything web related is miles better than my current job which is far to travel to and is damaging my back, also boring and extreme low pay
mystic hull
I know for a fact 2 years from now I'll be comfortable again, but right now I gotta work my ass off
plucky hatch
Well I'm already working in a job I didn't want to take so
mystic hull
I'd argue you can find better tbh
jobs aren't exactly hard to find, just good ones are
regardless, you can still work towards your goal on the side
it may take a year, or a few
but does that really matter if you're guaranteed to get there?
plucky hatch
I admire your optimism
plucky hatch
you know I hardly ever play video games. I used to play a lot of WoW and might go back to it. The only game I played lately is 'The Room'
mystic hull
That's unusual for game devs 🤔
fickle hatch
Is it? I don't really play videogames anymore, sometimes I play some niche stuff
plucky hatch
idk I kind of feel you need someone on your team with an imagination, maybe that comes from books, travelling etc
fickle hatch
I feel like hobbies shouldn't be same as your job for the sake of own sanity
plucky hatch
But you need the art and the story to come from something
mystic hull
Sure, but there are many other higher paying industries one could work at
I'd assumed people worked in games because they loved games 🤷
@plucky hatch Books are a great way to grow the mind
fickle hatch
Loving to make games isn't the same as loving to play games!
mystic hull
Valid argument, though how would you know the game industry exists if you dont play games? .-.
@plucky hatch you dont really need art or story to make a game
it highly depends on the kind of game you're making
plucky hatch
I am addicted to WoW because I got addicted to it when I was younger and have a ton of memories of it. I wouldn't commit myself to a game other than that with any intensity especially as I'm older. Maybe this is best in #lounge
also I much prefer more fantasy stuff to more realistic but the current trend seems to be towards realism
mystic hull
I shall be moving to the lounge then
jovial hollow
🤔 if you're a beginner who best identifies as a generalist, eww shouldn't be in your vocabulary when talking about things you might get paid to work on.
plucky hatch
because I can't have private opinions about stuff? I understand professionalism
jovial hollow
As soon as you state it here, it becomes a public opinion.
plucky hatch
yeah maybe I'm being spied on who knows
mystic hull
Well some of the people here do work for epic
and the game dev community in general isn't as big as other industries I believe
fickle hatch
It's at least as big as an orange
mystic hull
Word travels in these mediums 😄
jovial hollow
My point is also that just because the work is in the entertainment industry doesn't mean the work has to entertain you
plucky hatch
yeah @mystic hull you probably have a point, I see this as a more casual space, however I did just put a job post up, could probably change my name to something better here too
mystic hull
Also worth adding that your attitude hugely impacts your interviews
Even if it's just text based, you'd be surprised how much educated interviewers can tell about you
plucky hatch
Everyone is entitled to think what they want in private, there's no thought police. However you have a point that this discord is semi professional so I could do with acting more professionally
mystic hull
Not that I want to change your opinion, but it does help if you change your own opinions to align with what you want to do in life
plucky hatch
I forget, it's a fairly casual medium
mystic hull
Or well, what I mean to say is that your opinions are what you want to do/be in life
If that makes sense 🤔
plucky hatch
there is your private self and your public self
mystic hull
Same person, you'd just be lying to yourself and to others if they were different
jovial hollow
I don't see how you could hate what you do at work with a passion and stay doing it.
mystic hull
^
plucky hatch
Well I've made it clear I enjoy making games
jovial hollow
If there's a point where the difference cannot be reconciled, there isn't a divide; you're the same person.
mystic hull
you can't believe in two different things privately vs publicly
plucky hatch
If I didn't enjoy it would I spend 6 months on an indie game at a loss
It's not about belief it's about roleplay
In your public life you are expected to roleplay things that you might not identify with privately
mystic hull
That goes back to what I said earlier though, if you so much as try faking anything in an interview
you're legit screwed
Tbh I'm all against that kind of lifestyle
jovial hollow
Its not about fooling others. Its about sustainability.
mystic hull
to each their own though 🤷
jovial hollow
If you're good enough at "roleplay" you could convince others that you don't hate everything about your job. But you'll still hate it and if you reinforce that hate you're setting yourself up to suffer.
plucky hatch
It's about professionalism. If you are a manager of a company you need to be fairly tough/. You might not be the most dominant person or identify as such privately but you need to do so as part of your job. Good employees will understand that and respect it. Sorry to bring things like this up but you are pushing the issue
mystic hull
I would highly disagree with that, but again, to each their own 🤷
fickle hatch
"Roleplaying" can be a useful skill
mystic hull
It's just all a burden imo
If you're already doing a job you dont like, pretending to like it makes you hate it even more
Better off finding something you're actually fine doing
plucky hatch
The point is everyone knows the person you are at work is not necessarily who you are as a person, of course the person going out drinking on a Friday is not the person in a suit sitting at a desk, any civilised person can switch between 'professional' and 'not professional'
Or is what you do outside of work under scrutiny or something
mystic hull
That's professionalism, doesn't mean your opinions have changed between work and home though
plucky hatch
well I don't like my job, nobody seems to care
I mean my employers dont
not you lot
mystic hull
Speaking purely out of experience/personal bias here
but I do think the games industry is very different
Anyhow, I shall be heading out for a while
plucky hatch
If you want a job in the circus, you have to put on a clown suit. Everyone has to sacrifice a little bit when they go off to work. Is all about being a happy clown or a sad clown.
Of course and I'm not arguing that. just that you wouldn't expect the guy to go home in his suit and sleep in it would you? Which is what people are trying to suggest.
mystic hull
On the contrary, I suggested you dont go to work wearing a suit, but rather jeans & a shirt
we're no longer in the industrial age, you work with people you meet daily for very long periods of time
plucky hatch
well I like suits because they hide my bad fashion sense
mystic hull
if you can't get along, you cant' collaborate
And collaboration is a pillar of game dev, or rather any job in the tech industry
plucky hatch
@mystic hull that sometimes doesn't matter tho, some companies contract people out for only specific parts of a game and as such the company does all the writing / pre-production but pays people externally to do the rest.
mystic hull
How does that go against collaboration?
inner anchor
I don't see how contracting stuff out somehow means that collaboration doesn't matter anymore?
yea
plucky hatch
Because the collaboration is broken down as the workers don't speak with each other but only to the company itself which assigns them work. It's less collaboration and makes communication 1-1 somewhat with the handler.
inner anchor
are you trying to claim that when contractors work on a project, all project / work coordination goes through a single person and the contractors don't actually work as a part of a team? that seems like a pretty daft way of running things...
any technical project that has multiple people working on in requires coordination and communication, or you'll end up with a bunch of people writing code that works in isolation but is a shitshow once things need to be integrated at any level.
safe cove
So, to bring some fresh air in here, just a quick dumb question from a noob, sorry guys D:
Royalty-based payment at the core means one's getting paid based on the revenue made from the final product - is that correct? (my interpretation)
While having had a partial time in the music industry, I'm not sure if royalties work like this in gamedev as well
inner anchor
depends on the contract. they can call it pretty much anything, and the small print might say "% of net profits that occur on nights with a blue moon"
safe cove
I know that topic can be pretty vague
Haha OK, thanks @inner anchor :)
So pretty much the same at least
- thinks about last seen blue moon *
Welp, I guess that answer was deleted
plucky hatch
sorry typed that in the wrong place
inner anchor
but yea, royalties can mean a lot of things - net, gross, per sale, net up to a cap, gross up to a cap, minimum payment with a % above it, etc etc etc
safe cove
OK, so even more important to look out who you're working with I guess
I mean is there something like a minimum paid standard for example? Sorry if I'm really coming across noobish here
Because if one work's for another but that person never ships the final product - the other one still did work for it right?
inner anchor
even better, hire a lawyer to look at it. if it's not enough money to be worth hiring a lawyer to look at a contract, then it's probably gonna default to pro-bono anyways
depends on the contract
if the contract says "You will pay me $X + a % of profits" then you will still get $X if they never ship.
inner anchor
if it doesn't you're screwed
inner anchor
also, I'm not a lawyer, but don't expect to make any money on royalties when starting out unless it's for an entity with a strong history of actually shipping stuff. And even then be careful, because they can and will weasel out of paying for stuff
"Oh, there weren't any profits after paying my $500,000 salary from the LLC"
plucky hatch
royalty can be generalized to mean 99% of the time you will be pro-bono or grossly underpaid. if you get lucky 1% you will be grossly overpaid.
its better to have a set rate and accept a deferred payment if the project generates revenue.
safe cove
Ok ok, that's a good message!
inner anchor
the only other time that royalties really make sense is for really small projects where you have joint ownership of the project, but it's usually not worded as royalties in that case.
safe cove
Like being a set member of the team from then on?
inner anchor
like being one of the people starting a company
safe cove
Yeah gotchu
plucky hatch
royalties and dividends are death sentences for any new or growing company
inner anchor
but yea, generally if you're starting a company, profits will be re-invested to make the company sustainable, not go towards making the owners rich
plucky hatch
if the owner is promising either, do not expect them to survive without outside funding
inner anchor
yup
safe cove
Any bad experience one of you guys made in that regard?
inner anchor
which brings us back around to "royalties are not compensation"
safe cove
(Or experiences)
Yeah, one could easily guess so when first browsing the LFT/LFW channels
Or checking classifieds online
inner anchor
that's mostly "idea" people trying to get free work
plucky hatch
i had a guy ask for 15% royalties once, for doing less than 1% of the project and taking on 0% of the risk. lucky for me maths is strong, that could have been a bad experience
inner anchor
which is another thing entirely
safe cove
Ouch, hurts to read
Yeah, I got some of those vibes when browsing #looking-for-talent @inner anchor, hence my whole curiosity :D
plucky hatch
i think i remember a story about the NBA where these guys had an old contract that basically gave them a large % of the TV profits for decades.
safe cove
Read on /r/gamedev earlier that one dev agreed upon 250$ in rev but with a 10 grand limit for an artist, the artist seems to have reached that 10K limit after 6 months..
plucky hatch
sounds like a success story
safe cove
Apparently not for the dev though..
At least his reaction didn't seem to have stem from excitement
inner anchor
what, the person paying or the person being paid?
safe cove
Arguing it could have only been 250 bucks :D
Person paying (programmer/general developer)
plucky hatch
he hit his max expectation in less than a year
safe cove
I certainly wouldn't be mad I think
inner anchor
that's kinda weird. "My game was successful enough that I maxed out the payouts for all my royalty based contracts in the first 6 months, everything else is pure profit for me!" sobs
safe cove
:-D
inner anchor
unless he just signed a stupid contract that said something like "artist gets paid first up to $10,000 "
plucky hatch
any artist could have signed the contract, not every dev could piece together a successful project while taking on all the risk.
plucky hatch
yeah
inner anchor
so he signed a stupid deal
but well
you can sign a stupid deal without rev share as well
plucky hatch
still, cry over 10k one time when you just hit six figure gross in 6 months
safe cove
Yeah right
mystic hull
I wouldnt even care lol
safe cove
Agree on that Lucien
inner anchor
rev share isn't at fault here, he wanted work for no money up front, and he signed it with the expectation of making no money
inner anchor
artist got what he deserved - he took a giant risk that the work would be worth nothing
and it paid off
mystic hull
That artist must feel lucky tho 😂
safe cove
Guy must have been happy ^^
mystic hull
Hell I hope the risks im taking are that profitable 🤔
inner anchor
I hope I win the lottery.
mystic hull
I won life 🤷
inner anchor
would probably help if I had lottery tickets though
but eh, they're expensive
anyone want to do rev share on lottery tickets?
you gotta front the money, I'll scratch them
plucky hatch
@mystic hull if you did what you said you did yesterday, you should have no trouble reproducing that for $$ any time you want.
mystic hull
Yeah I have done it, but as far as any potential employer is considered it doesn't exist yet 😛
Also since we're talking about that
I've been actually pushing the issue lately, working more than I should (or am being paid for at least) etc
just so I can get that thing slapped onto my portfolio
inner anchor
like, working harder than you're being paid to because you want the project to be a success?
safe cove
Well, no matter the amount, I'm just gonna be proud when I made my first dollar
mystic hull
Yeah more or less @inner anchor
safe cove
Most people that win the lottery can't handle the amount anyway :P
inner anchor
do you have that much influence on the success of the project? Like if you worked 100x faster, would the project be guaranteed to succeed?
out of curiousity
mystic hull
Guaranteed is far fetched
safe cove
Paid or Royalty? @plucky hatch ;)
mystic hull
but yes, I would say (not out of ego hopefully) that I'm one of the main pillars the project is built upon
inner anchor
what I'm getting at is: will working yourself to the bone actually do anything positive if the success of the project depends on factors outside your control
plucky hatch
you are responsible for all the coding and networking correct?
mystic hull
Yeah, and anything on the client side that's related to networking as well
I create the tools/code, the dudes build the game
thats more or less the current process
plucky hatch
and they pay? that is winning
mystic hull
They pay what they can 😛
Like I said, not your typical benefits job, I still have to freelance on the side
but to me the benefit of being able to do something of this scale as my first job in the games industry
is rather huge
inner anchor
good luck man
mystic hull
Given we make it through, at least 😅
Thank you sire
Would you have taken the risk? 🤔
inner anchor
hah I'm still working in web dev and fucking around with game engines on the side.
plucky hatch
if you are comfortable taking on risk, then take risk
inner anchor
any advice I give is generic to tech / work for hire, rather than the game industry specifically
mystic hull
Not looking for advice specifically, but rather different POVs
I just get self-suspicious sometimes, if that makes sense 😅
You know, it's been a good year since we started on this
Not much that I can show off yet, been a bit slow
inner anchor
It's hard to say from the outside whether a risk is worth it - I'm not living in your shoes, I have different responsibilities, a different background, different stage of career etc
and its really easy to say that a risk wasn't worth it if it doesn't pan out - hindsight is always 20/20
the only thing you can do is make the best decision you can with the information you currently have available
and be aware of the tradeoffs you're making
plucky hatch
remember, it is risk versus reward, so make sure the rewards are proportional to the risks, or skewed in your favor.
inner anchor
and also plan for the case where things don't pan out
don't just hope that it will succeed
mystic hull
Yeah that makes pefect sense, thank you 👌
plucky hatch
out of curiosity, do you believe in the game they are building or are you uncertain of their design?
safe cove
Anything else to look out for then taking that first job?
mystic hull
I'm certain we could make it work one way or another
It's not specifically the type of game I would make/want to make
more of a financial choice than anything, we took the route that's had more chances to work out
safe cove
Oh and opinion on free work "for that exposure"?
plucky hatch
if you have free time then do free work
inner anchor
eh, "exposure" tends to be minimal
mystic hull
I think what really got me confident in this is their confidence/persistence, not everyday you meet people willing to take the same risk eh 😄
inner anchor
if you have time to do free work, why do the free work for someone other than yourself?
You have a better idea of what pushes the boundaries of your abilities than other people do
most "exposure" never pans out, and even in cases where it does, you're rewarding someone for undervaluing your work and taking advantage of your situation
plucky hatch
free work is the old way of networking. it is very effective.
inner anchor
but eh
plucky hatch
that is if you have the free time. if you have your own work then go with that
safe cove
What would be the definition of new way of networking? Being social in general?
mystic hull
You guys mind if I add you btw? Given networking and all 🤷
(will do free work for bread)
safe cove
Free time still goes heavily into my learn processes at the moment
inner anchor
i mean, sure it's networking, but it's also time that you aren't spending doing other kinds of networking like finding an industry mentor and figuring out how to get people to pay for your stuff
plucky hatch
i think the new way involves alot of #'s and @ ing
safe cove
@mystic hull I don't mind as well
Learning more and more C++ at the moment and focusing on that, not sure how I'm gonna dabble with the networking stuff in the future
mystic hull
Oh it's easy, fail a lot and bang your head against the wall 👌
at one point it just works
😅
safe cove
So far had a BP project running through the Steam subsystem, that worked quite good
mystic hull
Also a bit offtopic, but I really like this channel o_o
safe cove
First time here and got a really warm welcome :]
mystic hull
Not unusual as long as you ask the right questions 😄
safe cove
It was kinda noobish so I appreciate it even more :D
safe cove
Yeah, I consider it a good thing most of the time as well
I just love diving into stuff on a free day
Things that naturally keep me awake at night, out of curiosity
serene apex
I can make money by making smaller games and publishing his into indie sites like itch.io or Gamejolt?
late axle
Hey, if someone wanted to work at Epic Games do they have to have a masters degree in computer coding orrr..?
west sonnet
They have a portfolio
shell night
It's mostly going to be based on what specific role you apply for. Every job has different needs/requirements. Like if you were going for a marketing role at Epic, you prob won't need a Comp.Sci degree, but if you're looking to be a Network of Graphics Engineer, ya, the core programming skillset is going to be needed.
plucky hatch
@safe cove actually, random questions, when doing interviews
hazy zealot
@late axle here's some qualifications from an epic games job listing
• Excellent optimization and debugging skills
• Well versed in software engineering principles
• Strong C++ & math skills
• Familiarity with Java or C# an advantage
• Excellent communication and interpersonal skills
• Experience working on a live service game
• Keen interest in games and knowledge of what makes games fun```@late axle I looked at their website, they are taking applications for many positions. Having a Master's would probably give you a leg up on some of the better positions.
late axle
Ok
safe cove
@plucky hatch What's that?
normal sparrow
He probably meant to ping Bub.
high turtle
Hello to everyone ...
First of all i would like to tell you about my interest in Unity .. I'm sound engineer in the field of post production and music industry....
I want to find opportunities of working in the field of game industry as sound engineer and designer..
I already checked many vacancies in the big companies. They mentioning some requipments as knowledge of cripting/coding (C++, C#) . Coding is for game engines such as Unity, Unreal, Fmod, Wwise..
We need knowledge of coding to add and operate all designed sound in game engines.. For instance i produce all background music, sound effects and any noises in advanced music production softwares (Cubase, Protools) then placing those sounds in game engine.
Could someone give me advice of a starting way for a beginner? (any online tutorial )
Thanks in advance
tidal moth
well this is an unreal discord channel, not a unity discord channel 😉
high turtle
@tidal moth Thanks for reply . I really have no clue which engine i shall learn . If i were good at Unitiy, could i use Unreal with experience of unity ?
lilac walrus
can you drive a car having ridden a bike?
(no, the two are not alike and require some different skills)
you will need to spend time in Unreal to get to grips with how Unreal handles audio by default, and the same is true of Unity
high turtle
@pine jungle Well then is it better to start with Unreal Engine ?
lilac walrus
that I can't answer
lots of different companies use different engiens
in some cases their tools are totally proprietary anyway so it doesn't even matter which you use
high turtle
As i understood from your words , if i were good at Unreal , i could handle with Unity
lilac walrus
you would still need to learn how Unity does things
tidal moth
the functions beneath the hood are roughly the same, but the form is different
and the workflows necessary for both are much different
high turtle
@lilac walrus I need to learn only for audio and sound that's why i need to learn audio script if i'm not wrong
tidal moth
you'll need to do more programming for unity, and more node based graph scripting for unreal
for instance
lilac walrus
"audio script" isn't a specific thing
both engines have totally different approaches to implementing audio in gameplay etc
but the core tools are often similar
high turtle
i'm not in graphic .
tidal moth
nobody is talking about graphics
we're talking about how you implement audio in the engines
for one engine you do it one way, for the other you do it in a different way
high turtle
i wish that i could have a clue from where to start..
tidal moth
in the end, the result is the same, but to get there requires learning different things
if you already know programming
it's easy to do whatever
if you don't know programming
high turtle
@tidal moth I know whay you meaning ... It is same for advanced music production softwares.
tidal moth
well that's going to be harder then
high turtle
i don't know programming
tidal moth
unreal has a node based scripting language
which may be easier to understand than pure programming
especially for a non programmer
high turtle
I already checked vacancies in the company . They asking for C # , Unreal , Unity for sound engineering and designing
high turtle
Experience in scripting/coding (C++, C#, Java,…) ....Basic skills in Game Engine Editors (Unity, Unreal...)....Good skills in Audio Engine Editors (Wwise (is preferred), FMOD...)
they want everything 🙂
tidal moth
Wwise I think is getting to be industry standard
so as an engineer you're probably looking to bridge the gap between Wwise functionality and whatever engine they're using
high turtle
yes game industry
tidal moth
so if you can get to a point where you can create Wwise audio objects in any engine, you're well on your way
high turtle
Should i know C # for Wwise too?
tidal moth
I don't know Wwise that well
so I would figure out what you need to implement it from a Wwise perspective, and then figure out the pipeline from Wwise into the engine editor
and I don't know where you are looking for work either, but if it's internationally, you need to ensure your english skills are good enough to communicate
right now it seems you are misunderstanding some of the concepts I am mentioning
high turtle
First of all i tried to figure out what game industry wanting from a sound engineer.
and it goes with softwares such as wwise , unreal , unity and also c# , c ++ skills
drowsy dirge
Looks more like a broad list than an exact one. But in your case if it's international work your looking for I'd focus more on English skills and getting examples made in an engine such as unity or unreal. Building yourself a portfolio. Sorry if I missed an important part of the conversation.
fiery bay
Howdy - there is a game instructor job. Would this be the write channel to post?
west sonnet
karmic kayak
I think thats more for #looking-for-talent or #looking-for-work
fiery bay
Thx. I’ll hash that
sour cosmos
stuart .. i suggest you compare the definitions of write and right 😉
sour cosmos
I can't move anything in my scene .. no idea what is causing this. I can select any objects but can't do anything ... help !!!!
I have been using Mesh Tool from Mary Nate, i uninstalled it to see if it was related but still not working
karmic kayak
wrong channel
cursive geyser
hi friends
To make a long question short, I'm looking for advice on what to put in my portfolio (Game Designer/Level Designer) when all of my projects have not yet made (or in some cases will never make) it past the prototype stage. Is it ok to have a lot of unfinished work if I explain my design sense / knowledge properly and what I learned from my experiences? How do I create an insightful view of my skillset with only work in progresses?
lilac walrus
I'd work on getting something past the prototype phase
even if it's just one small finished project (and that doesn't have to be a 'released game', it can in itself be a demo or polished prototype), it'll go much farther than a load of unfinished things
people don't want to hire people who don't finish their work
plucky hatch
When I hire designers I want to see their logic applied thru commented scripts or blueprints. Finished levels with postmortem on how and why it was crafted to create which player experiences and how those build/feed into/loop through the overall gameplay experience
vivid aurora
Helpful info 😄
plucky hatch
\o/ Is there info on what a junior ue4 coder should know ?
job descriptions tell "good c++, know unreal" but what does this even really mean? googling this doesnt show any clear examples
mystic hull
It means you know how to get stuff done
and are able to demonstrate that
Both with the language & the engine
woeful iron
I'd say you don't have to know everything or even that much, but you need to be comfortable enough with the development process to be able to research and implement basic features/functionalities on your own
Solid c++ understanding definitely falls under that, cause if you don't know the language it would be hard to understand engine functionality or best practices on implementing stuff
plucky hatch
thanks guys for trying 🙂 but these are exactly answers I find googling 😉
non specific, be comfortable, know language... yada yada 🙂
You know in art You can atleast see the final picture (in this topic that would be example project / code I guess) but in coding: nope.
I guess I look for junior code / project examples ?
tidal moth
implement some systems that you find in particular interesting/fun to do
show them in a demo video/reel
show the code or give it to them upon request
explain the steps you went through to polish the system
and how you figured out the in depth tech stuff
like if you wanna do animation programming, IK is a good place to start
how to do IK, how to make it cheap etc.
for gameplay programming, try perhaps something like an interactible system hierarchy
for AI, behavior trees etc., behavioral modeling
show that you do the research, show some forethought and reflect
mystic hull
I mean, that's what programming comes down to in general. I'm not sure how any of what we said is obscure
You have to know how to get things done, without needing to follow a book or have a tutorial open next to you, i.e. create things yourself
And you need to have a good enough grasp on the language to be able to acheive that, and as such be able to demonstrate it either through your portfolio, interview or both.
You have a specific problem or feature, you have the ability to fully execute the solution & implementation in an efficient way
As for the art analogy, you don't see every stroke being drawn
which is what example project & code would be
instead you see the final polished picture, which is what your working prototype would be
Reading code is a very time consuming thing, I'd assume most people just skim through your code, that is if they read it at all pre-hire
plucky hatch
it is best practice to skim the code for bad coding habits, no one will read them to see if the code is successful or not, you would need 200iq to do that.
grand glen
Anyone wanna start a project with me? I've had an idea for something for a while.
tidal moth
also
ideas are cheap, execution is expensive
and if you want people to join you you better know how to motivate them, either with money or effort
plucky hatch
That's probably the thing I hate to hear the most "ideas are cheap".
If you know what you doing in game design, you can help a dev team save months if not years of playtesting to figure out what works, what doesn't, etc
That's your useless idea guy
THE TIME SAVER
THE FIXER
because that guy possibly has 10-30 years of experience with specific game genres and design problems
The thing that you just can't show on a resume
hybrid phoenix
But that's not just an idea, at that point
At least, that's not what people mean when saying "ideas are cheap"
Ideas like "Overwatch but in space and everyone has jetpacks" are cheap
Ideas backed by an extensive GDD written by a veteran designer are not
But at that point I really wouldn't refer to it as an idea
plucky hatch
What Im saying is some of us knew from day one that to add Extra-Damage in Gears of War after performing an active-reload was going to break the multiplayer.
Took 5 years to cliffy B after the release of the game to acknowledge it
Some of us knew that 3rd person cover was going to ruin R6 Vegas 2 in mp, causing the gameplay to freeze, everyone hiding in 3rd waiting for the other team to move
It got removed in Siege
This kind of ''idea'' comes from years of XP
Either playing or making games
The kind of stuff that is really difficult to show on a resume/demo reel
This is the kind of stuff we could describe in great details and people still wouldnt get it.
They would get it 5 years later through life experiences
pale yacht
Be wary of Sauren's job post in
#looking-for-talent, I've had a bad experience with them
Just a Smol heads up
hybrid phoenix
Right, but now you're talking a single design-point as idea
So you're mixing two discussions
plucky hatch
There are three ways an 'idea' guy can get his project made. None of them have a high rate of success. You can take the Entrepreneur approach, and generate the jobs that developers will fill to do the 'work', you can learn to do some of the Work yourself approach, find a job doing that work, slither your way through the office politics until you reach the place where your ideas are heard and evaluated, or you can get your Friends together to work for free for your ideas. Do not get discouraged, at the end of the day, it is the 'idea' guys who have provided all the opportunities for this work.
plucky hatch
@hybrid phoenix i think i can work out most of the jetpacks, if you can handle the space and the overwatch thing.
plucky hatch
My point was always that competent and valuable idea guys are very difficult to identify. And it is difficult to evaluate their worth.
And with the current market making casual games, it is just making it more difficult for the better designers to stand out.
--
Think of it as you got great designers that make great maps
but everyone just plays brainless ice_world in css or csgo
Ideas are important, but they need vetted. 99 out of 100 great ideas should not survive the vetting process. Someone trained in vetting ideas is called a 'business' guy. Developers hate idea guys and business guys. Mr4Goosey brings up great points about ideas. If youre great idea for a game is just rebranding other peoples games and changing some adjectives and nouns around, no one wants that, it should not survive the vetting process. Most games made today are like this because there is disfunction in the industry. If your idea is innovative in some way it has merit, but you would need to marry your idea to some practical production skills to get it considered.
I really dont think you should split idea and business. that is the whole point of having game designers on board to design best selling games
but it is fine
you ll always have different schools of thoughts
people who prefer sub specilizations and others who favor a more holistic approach or understanding of things
Most designers Ive met were either just creative or technical.
Design missing
I am saying the majority of what a business man is trained to do is evaluate pros and cons, risks and rewards, and decision making. Those are learned skills and they need to be applied in the design phase. Otherwise it is called shooting from the hip, and it is better to take aim.
seems to me like you are trying to split game design into multiple categories
When I design games, each idea needs to be fun, sell and hopefully also speed up production time
steel creek
Developers hate idea guys and business guys. good thing i am all three then
plucky hatch
a wolf in sheeps clothing
plucky hatch
And how would you define idea guy?
Would that be a game designer?
Controls, gameplay, camera, enemies, game system, combat system, multiplayer features, menus, lore, etc.?
shell night
it doesn't, but for it to really be treated as a "valid" position on a team, it does need to be directly coupled with implementation/execution
otherwise, that's where you get the more negative perception of "idea guy", where if that's all they do/contribute, and don't directly assist towards making the idea real
hybrid phoenix
The discussion we were having was basically that. An idea guy is not a designer, an idea guy tries to be a designer but really has nothing other than a vague idea
And by the way, I also consider my three a developer, idea guy and business guy
But there's the kind of business of "how can I live off my ideas" and there's "how can I squeeze every cent out of my ideas" - I think game developers tend to dislike that last one
shell night
depending on who is in control of whatever product/IP is in question for the developer, those 2 things aren't implicitly exclusive though
mystic hull
That does make sense
flat maple
Anyone can explain Unpaid means?
spice dagger
flat maple
Someone was insulting me because I just ask what I get for it.
tidal moth
I don't think the notion of an idea guy exists inside the industry as a separate entity. everyone has ideas, and everyone can feel free to suggest them. as a designer the thing I am concerned with is keeping all the ideas or features in the game consistent with what the premise of the game is.
hybrid phoenix
That's exactly why the term came to be. Idea guy isn't a role or function, it's a description of people on teams who are literally just spitting out (generally rather vague or useless) ideas with nothing else to add to the development process
Whereas good designers are incredibly valuable
hybrid phoenix
Those people don't know what designers are supposed to do
tidal moth
you'd be surprised how many people like that work in the industry
hybrid phoenix
Idea guys, you mean? Or people who don't know what designers are supposed to do?
tidal moth
the latter
tidal moth
it's been said before that you get great design by removing elements and polishing down your work rather than adding new elements.
and I think this ties into the designer as a role
since people don't understand this
they don't understand what the designer does
plucky hatch
"CranzEstebogenToday at 6:53 AM
you'd be surprised how many people like that work in the industry"
hahahahaha
true
That's one of the frustrating thing about game/level design.
Design in general is still heavily misunderstood and underated
Even here, it's obvious in the Design and Level Design channels.
It's also obscure about how much valuable it could be to be good at playing games in general.
Or how valuable could it be to have played a wide variety of games during the past decades
All that stuff is very difficult to add to a resume/portfolio/demo reel
steel creek
I think it's really because people feel that design is a thought process and since they can think and have a thought process design must be easy
The same dismissiveness that most people use about anything once they learn a little bit about it
plucky hatch
There is also the fact that designers benefit from being also proficient in coding and design.
But for some reasons, some people in the industry just want ''level designers that just make map''
@steel creek could be
mystic hull
I think it's really because people feel that design is a thought process and since they can think and have a thought process design must be easy The same dismissiveness that most people use about anything once they learn a little bit about it
Wouldn't that be a bit stupid to think though (for the people who think it 😅 )
Theoretically design goes into many many jobs, engineering, programming and what have you
That doesnt mean just having a thought process makes it easy
plucky hatch
Well, how many people think programming is just typing stuff? And there is no design aspect related to it?
mystic hull
There are a lot of practical skills & experience required
plucky hatch
Lot of people think coders are just code monkeys
mystic hull
Oh well, valid point 😂
This channel always has a way to remind me of why I should lose faith in humanity 🤷
plucky hatch
Programmers are inherently designers as well within ''programming softwares''.
mystic hull
True
plucky hatch
And that's one of the reasons I know some programmers hate designers who just think
Because they feel like they do it all
mystic hull
It's two entirely different fields of thinking though ;-;
plucky hatch
Depends on the programmer
plucky hatch
Some programmers got into games because they are actually secretly designers too
mystic hull
Yeah
Honestly though I find it very hard to learn game design
Aside from the talks and random articles, I've yet to stumble upon a formalized scientific approach
if that makes sense, maybe it's that I'm used to learning that way from all the programming
but yeah
plucky hatch
One of the issues we face as game developer is that video games take so much time to make, it's kind of difficult to spend time thinking about game design
mystic hull
It's one of those things I just admire people for, if you're a proven designer you're almost definitely talented
that too 🤔
plucky hatch
While you think game design, the game doesnt progress
mystic hull
True
plucky hatch
And then you spend a full week writing docs and you feel like you just wasted a week
mystic hull
That's a very good point. I've also haven't worked on the game for months, given I havent finished the GDD
not even close
partly why I decided to start with smaller hyper-casuals
no gdd required 🤷
tidal moth
unless you're on a big project gdds are more or less meaningless. as long as everyone is on board with what you're doing, you can settle for creating powerpoint slides noting down specifics. it's easier talking to people than it is for people to read and understand text
plucky hatch
have any of you had to put a lot of work into a game with a bad design or a dysfunctional producer or designer?
Yes
In the earlier years of my career, I had to do a lot of babysitting. Did a lot of design/management work to cover for what lead designers/producers werent doing.
But that's also because the company was shifting gear.
Entering a new market and they didnt have people in place for it
The company started to work on First person shooter games, but the people in place had little to no experience with the game genre
How did they decide on FPS if that was not their thing?
hahahaha, Im glad you ask
Well, the guys at the top of the company saw that Call of Duty was selling well and their company was in the business of creating console games ripoff for mobile
smart phones
Or basically, that's how it started
CoD clone, Halo clone, Diablo clone, Uncharted clone, GTA clone, etc
For mobile
ah so their design philosophy was based off of risk mitigation, or copying an already successful model. did they abandon all their games after initial sales slowed?
They had the market for themselves
I do not know much about mobile games, I have been gaming for almost 40 years and never had a desire to play games on my phone
Same...
But when you work in the video games industry, it's a job. You work for the guys at the head of the company and for your lead.
You don't necessarily work on your dream projects
It's production work.
You have a skillset that a client needs you to use.
I would only enter the industry to make my game or volunteer on idies. There are better ways to make money.
for me at least
I don't know. Being paid 70k a year sounds like good money
45-120k a year. Is pretty good.
Depending on what your role is and where you work.
And how experienced you are..
unless you need a 150,000k + salary
it is good money, but for my skill set i would have a hard time qualifying for those jobs, and i would lose my availability.
plus, if you work in the industry, chances are you also might have to invest some time outside work hours to explore new tech, etc
That's something to think about...
i am of the philosophy that we all work 24/7. so 'taking work home' is another way of saying 'i have made plans to get drunk today, where is that timeclock?'
lol
elder mist
@plucky hatch You probably could not play games on your mobile 30 years ago...barely 20 years ago.
plucky hatch
Dont get me wrong
making games for mobile VS console isnt different because you play with touch vs controller
So I dont think it prevents people from getting jobs
And it doesnt make you hypocrite to work on mobile games if you are coming from PC / Console
plucky hatch
nothing wrong with taking a job at all. it is difficult for me to get invested in a product that i would not be a customer of but it seems like making mobile games would be a good way to make money.
drowsy dirge
Waaaait a sec.
Mobile phones existed 30 years ago?
They were just starting to be a thing when I was a kid how even.
elder mist
@drowsy dirge yeah, first one appeared in mid 80s
drowsy dirge
Well holy crap.
south osprey
First smart phone was in the early 90s as well. Lot of recognizable names there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic
The original iphone was essentially a lot of the same people remaking their original dream from general magic.
I don't know why you would go into games if you only wanted money. It's not too hard to get a job at 'big tech' and senior people there pull about 350-550k and have better working conditions overall.
drowsy dirge
In what field exactly?
Not worked in programming jobs but the research i've done suggests that it's about as stressful as game dev, lots of pressure to move crap out regardless of quality, as the clients demand stuff be shipped faster.
Overall though supposedly webdev pays a fair bit better overall. And that's not hardware oriented most times. Game dev only seems profitable more so than that stuff if your actually investing into a business from scratch, and actually have the passion and knowhow... And luck.
Actually though it's pretty hard to get work as a programmer if you don't have a degree and are mostly working with low level languages like c++, c, and asm.
And game dev for indie's has the advantage of "work from home" which for some of us is a requirement. I've got parents and siblings to take care of, and stability is mandatory since am helping someone get through college. And there's no programming work here really.
Also can't travel reliably since am blind >.< If none of that applies to you though and it's all about the money, webdev would be a better place to go.
mystic hull
Actually though it's pretty hard to get work as a programmer if you don't have a degree and are mostly working with low level languages like c++, c, and asm. huh, thats not true
drowsy dirge
Heeeey there if you got leads i'm happy to take a look.
Very happy~
@mystic hull Seriously I've been searching for ages. Did lots of prototyping stuff but nothing that relates to what a business would want. Stuff from implementing game engines, voxel engines, cross platform basic frameworks for 2D game dev in assembly(think processing or openFrameworks but for asm), real mode osdev for funzies though not that advanced.
Basic AABB physics engine with spatial hash tables...
None of it seems to get attention.
Maybe my searching methodology is very incorrect.
mystic hull
So you're more or less an engine developer yeah?
Are you a junior?
Im probably not the best to ask, but I would say indeed your searching method might be the problem
drowsy dirge
It's just things I've practiced, since doing it solo that's all that's really interesting at the moment.
That specific field is pretty badly populated as well.
I'm kind of piss poor with just one working computer really, i'm not hosting servers or anything of the like, i don't have any need to fill to justify doing something different.
Yet that is.
south osprey
@drowsy dirge Moving protobufs around pays about that, you need to be good at it though and willing to locate to a location with a lot of other tech people. SF, Seattle, NY.
https://www.paysa.com/ is pretty accurate
drowsy dirge
Hmm may I ask what a protobuff is?
south osprey
Protobufs are a serialized protocol for communication between two web servers normally. Shoveling protobufs is just slang for back end development.
They are like json but faster and not human readable. Normally not needed unless you have massive scale requirements since lag is almost always in other areas first
south osprey
No your intuition is right
drowsy dirge
It reminds me of c style struct objects really... Hard to figure it out at the moment.
south osprey
The hard parts are always in figuring out requirements and building the right things. If you are good at c++/c there is a lot of work. ASM not so much outside of a few boutique shops.
drowsy dirge
Intriguing~
Sorry for asking a lot of basic stuff, just nice to hear it form someone's perspective while researching. Maybe going further with networking things in an optimized manner would be the right angle.
south osprey
Are you in college yourself?
drowsy dirge
Na can't really afford to do that with everything going on.
Moreover legally blind.
But that's not an issue really >.>
south osprey
Getting interviews and not offers or not getting interviews?
drowsy dirge
The majority of what was tried was honestly remote work especially if they titled it as junior, which is difficult to find. So honestly not even got interviews yet.
Actually I did get one job offer but it was overseas. In sweden
They have a lot of immigration... which seems off in some way, mixed with family not liking the idea of me moving, kind of became a non option.
If i actually tried personal face to face attempts, such as talking with someone's hr, and if I actually moved around and would be willing to move it might not be so bad come to think of it.
That specific job was wanting me to work low hours but at high pay >.> Something about that felt off.
Yeah the more I'm thinking on this the more it seems a personal issue instead of a general one.
Woops I never answered >.<
Getting to the point of even getting an interview is the issue.
daring parrot
Full-time remote is hardly a thing currently unless 1) you already have remote experience or 2) you're an on-site employee transitioning to remote
Over a year of searching for that sort of remote C++ work I had 1 relevant hit 🤷 gotta be willing to move where the jobs are
mystic hull
Or if the employer really knows & trusts you
daring parrot
That sounds like a very specific situation
mystic hull
true
flat gazelle
It comes with experience and connections. When I freelanced, I didn't have much trouble with that because I know people at a lot of studios, so there was always someone who could vouch for me. After enough years at a studio you've met and worked with enough people that have since moved on to enable this.
mystic hull
I guess you could find such opportunities in indies though
All my jobs were remote, purely through recommendations & connections
not the best paying jobs mind you, but they exist
daring parrot
Contracting though?
mystic hull
and only this last one is actually in game dev
For the most part yeah
I was supposedly gonna get full-timed on one of them, but management 😅
daring parrot
Always management 🤣
flat gazelle
I was fulltime remote on one project.
mystic hull
They mostly went like "ty for your service sir, bye bye"
flat gazelle
I think that's more up to the size of studio
The studios who could pay for fulltime, had too much security restrictions to allow remote work.
daring parrot
Heh. More security on entertainment products than defense contracts
flat gazelle
Yup
flat gazelle
Freelanced on Battlefront 2. First the EA layer, then the Lucasarts layer. A lot of vetting needs to take place 😛
drowsy dirge
Oof painful.
feral bloom
where can i check what are the standarts today for digital art
urban stump
fiery peak
Not sure if this is the right channel to ask... We are looking around for UE4 tech artist live in/around NYC with a bit of VFX industry experience for some non- gaming projects. It's been very difficult to even get the search started. I can get a posting up in the posting channel but am wondering if anyone has recommendation for other places that we can look for people. Thanks!
west sonnet
fiery peak
Yes! Any other channel may be outside of unreal slacker that you can recommend?
west sonnet
ArtStation, Glassdoor, Indeed
winged lotus
hello, can some one help me. i am wondering about Archviz industrial in europe , do they require this level of render detail ( in big studio of course ), i am working in VietNam and here we dont really need to reach to this level at all when it come to rendering interior. ( subtance designer )
lilac walrus
it would not be unusual in Arch Viz
halcyon slate
willow remnant
It is a pleasure to be with you, I tell you some of my professional experience, I am an architect by training, but the platforms such as archicad, 3ds max, grasshopper for rhinoceros and now my most recent unreal challenge for architecture.I write these lines in order to gain access to the inverse professionals within a real and especially those who use it for architecture to acquire knowledge and work in parallel, I hope to hear from you soon.I say goodbye that my experience comes since 2005 and I would like to continue growing
winged lotus
@willow remnant not sure what do you mean, are you talking about me and my comment?
tidal moth
obviously it's google translated
willow remnant
if you use the translator
I was talking about myself, I am impressed by your work and I would like to know how to get training to achieve this level
celest summit
How much would you guys pay for game design consulting and how long would you expect to work with them for the amount paid?
Here's some payment models I came up with:
1.Consultation paid in advance and lasts for
certain amount of time
2.Milestones setup before consultation and paid
after the completion of each milestone
3.Consultation paid in advance and lasts till client
is satisfied
daring parrot
3 is risky biscuits
Make them decide up front what "satisfied" means. So basically turn 3 into 2
hard fog
I agree, some one could very easily take advantage of 3
celest summit
PSA
Can't figure out how to advertise your unique skills and talents? Take the Plum personality assessment
https://www.plum.io/job-seekers
It will tell you your top talents
Where you'll be happiest working
Even areas where you can develop
"Can't a test like this be easily gamed?"
https://www.plum.io/blog/how-to-beat-the-plum-assessment
Found a career assessment system that's been super helpful to my personal development and thought I'd share. 🤗
elder mist
@celest summit just one more useless data collecting service
YOU WOULD BE HAPPIEST IN POSITIONS WHERE YOU WILL... not ever be
tidal moth
seems more like an ad plug
tidal moth
@lilac walrus is ad plugging a breach of conduct?
celest summit
@elder mist why do you think you'll never be in a position where you're happy?
elder mist
@celest summit it's not what i've said, that all those criteria not exist in any position...even while being self employed
some of them are actually oppose each other
celest summit
Which one's oppose each other?
elder mist
@celest summit have constant feedback and have less social interactions
celest summit
Less social interaction with different people. So having constant feedback from the same small group of people.
elder mist
@celest summit so..."collegues" are not among them?
west sonnet
That’s called an echo chamber 😜
elder mist
@celest summit well, i'm glad it helped you...but for me it's kinda useless service. It won't help you find the job that fits all those criteria.
it's like on LinkedIn...people spammign you with random offers that have 0 relation to your resume or what you're looking for
I'm still getting offers from companies that are developing AI for self driving cars...No clue why.
celest summit
@west sonnet You don't surround yourself with people that challenge your views?
elder mist
"people that challenge your views"...those were my former bosses. Didn't like that i challenged theirs.
celest summit
@elder mist How did you challenge their views?
elder mist
Just told them they are wrong straight away when they were, without sweetening.
celest summit
How did they react?
elder mist
Depends on case. But I think never accepted as their own fault.
celest summit
How was it supposed to work? You tell them they're wrong and then they accept it?
flat gazelle
Is it just me, or is it really annoying to listen to the "I took a two-day corporate communications workshop" types? It's very common in production assistants with ambition (but not necessarily talent) and recruiters.
"How would YOU want it to work?", "I hear you, let's table that idea for now and go with this other one I thought of!" or "If you don't feel empowered in your current situation, let's change it together!"...mumble grumble
elder mist
- Make a statement
- Get a feedback that statement was wrong
- Think about it
- Reconsider if it was wrong
flat gazelle
Everything is a question.
No solutions.
No actual contributions to the discussion.
ashen lynx
I did not recognize Andreas with new profile picture 😦
ashen lynx
oh.. I thought it was him.
celest summit
@elder mist What step of that process do you think your bosses failed?
elder mist
@celest summit i can't read minds, so it may be after 2, or 3
tidal moth
is this turning into a psych eval session? what's going on
celest summit
Let's say they failed after step 3. What do you think could be preventing them from succeeding at those steps?
tidal moth
how about you take that conversation with them
celest summit
@tidal moth I don't really know @elder mist bosses. Nor have they asked for my opinion. Is something wrong?
elder mist
@celest summit Mentality?
tidal moth
the issue is that you're asking questions that you can't really get clear answers to
elder mist
some people not fit to be bosses...they just some how managed to get there (btw both companies are ceased now)
tidal moth
and those same questions are also irrelevant
in the end if you're hired by a company, you're paid to do a job, and that includes subordination
whether or not those bosses are doing the "right" thing is less of a factor
principles are great until your job gets to be on the line over them
elder mist
sorry, what does "to be on the line over them" means?
tidal moth
meaning you can lose your job for standing up to your bosses for instance
elder mist
ahaha, yeah, that's what generally happened 🙂
celest summit
@tidal moth So you'd forgoe your own principles to keep your job?
@elder mist Thanks for answering my questions! I agree with it having to do with mentality and it's unfortunate that those type of people are put in a position of power.
elder mist
it's a rare case when people climbed there by own skills, or founded own company...at least here at my country/city
celest summit
That's why I shared the Plum personality assessment thing. I want to encourage better hiring, so that the right person is hired for the job and these situations don't occur as much or at all.
elder mist
@celest summit yeah, i think 0 people here using one, and not much in gamedev overall I assume
flat gazelle
Thanks for providing a live demo of the type I described! We'll played
celest summit
@flat gazelle ?
flat gazelle
Tell me, how did the assessment help you land your current gamedev job?
How did the interview play out after you revealed its findings?
tidal moth
and also how much did Plum pay you to share?
celest summit
If you're asking for results, then I don't have any that I think you would see as acceptable.
They haven't paid me anything and don't even know I exist. Genuinely just wanted to share a tool that was helpful on my journey of self development.
plucky hatch
Well if you have a different idea from your boss ultimately it's their decision what happens to the game... That's a given of course. If they are acting illegally that's a different story
tidal moth
very rarely it's a question of legality
a boss being an asshole is just par for the course
in the end you have to be the professional and acknowledge that someone is paying you to do a job
plucky hatch
Hey is there any kind of school I can take to learn more about unreal engine 4
Or tutoring
I really want to get better at it
hybrid phoenix
Following tutorials, reading or just getting tutoring
That said, tutoring tends to be expensive
Also, you need a solid amount of discipline and dedication to make any of these work
plucky hatch
Dive deep, do as many tutorials as you can until your become creative and can do everything you want by yourself
sand wyvern
narrow vigil
I would suggest that you try in #looking-for-talent @sand wyvern
sullen skiff
@plucky hatch for me, it's just been messing around and having fun. Personally, I started by looking at other people's projects within the editor (via Unreal Tournament 3 editor, and Unreal Tournament (4) editor, the latter of which is free and on the Epic Launcher). Copy and paste stuff into your own project, move objects around and fiddle with the settings of stuff -- just explore and discover, and don't put any pressure on yourself.
Next, try to make a simple game. I'm talking super simple. Start with a 3rd Person Blueprint Example, place a trigger volume somewhere in the starting area, and make an event where if the player collides with the trigger volume, the game ends. Now you have an objective to reach. Just move around some cubes and make yourself a little obstacle course, and make sure the player has some way of knowing what the goal area is (maybe make a cube green and non-colliding so the player hits the volume instead).
The most important thing is to have a basic game that you can add features to. When you need to learn 20 things just to get started, it's overwhelming and intimidating. But if you have a simple game with a criterion for completion, now you can add things between the start and end of the game, one element at a time. Want to know how to add a new, red obstacle which causes the game to be restarted? Easy to look up. Want to learn how to modify BP Third Person Example Character so he can sprint? A little challenging, but possible.
The most important thing you need is a space -- a playground, if you will -- in which you can have fun, experiment, and teach yourself, one piece at a time.
limber mantle
@plucky hatch if you dont already know a programming language I'd start there. I found buying a book on c++ and going through it offered a faster and more fleshed out experience than youtube programming tutorials. Even for blueprints it's really important to understand programming concepts.
Looking at other people's projects and reading the documentation is a great way to learn the engine, and the learn tab on the epic launcher has a bunch of example projects. I'd recommend downloading all of the projects under the "games" category. Also I'd recommend not watching too many youtube tutorials, I wasted so much time early on thinking I was learning how to make games when in reality its more like watching a 'lets play' of game development than actually doing it. Watching the first couple in a series can be a good way of finding your way around the editor the very basics but you shouldn't watch 40 parts if you know what I mean.
Pick something to work on, or work towards, I really don't think it matters what you choose as long as you're passionate about it because the important thing is sticking with it.
Its all going to feel overwhelming for a very long time and you're going to have to accept this if you want to make games. Good luck!
I think this video is a good example of the right attitude to learning something new https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEiNBVVCq_A He tries to figure things out on his own, he reads the documentation. He watched the first bits of a youtube tutorial on 2x speed to get the gist of things but then immediately does his own thing. He also breaks things into smaller tasks eg "how do I start scripting" "how do I add textures" "how do i make things move on screen" "how do i add player input". This is a really great way to learn game development.
plucky hatch
Thank you sm
leaden fulcrum
So hey guys, im soon going into a interview into a realtime visualization real estate firm(working with ue4) and feel not ready. Im good with UE in general but im not the best person to talk about myself.
Stuff i would be doing if i get accepted is expanding the plugin base and help out theyre visualization team.
What should i maybe look at before going into the interview/what would you reccomend haveing a good look at?
tidal moth
self confidence self help videos from the sounds of it
mint coral
We're looking for a technical artist (maybe two) at Rocksteady, if anyone is interested. One tools/pipeline based, another procedural (houdini) based.
tacit siren
#looking-for-talent @mint coral
mint coral
thanks!
tacit siren
check pinned messages for how to make a post there
plucky hatch
How are CGMA courses for 3d modelling? Worth the $700? I know the 2D courses are worth for the 20 min crits
Focused on character design, could entail sculpting and substance
tacit siren
that is what source control is for
you can't edit the same BP at the same time, but thats about it
also, not #career-chat question
crimson kiln
UFF
inland pond
UUNF
calm berry
inland pond
is no one with mute powers on?
summer chasm
Anyone know anything about applying for Epic Megagrants? I've read all the information available from Epic and done a good bit of research, still have a question.
flat gazelle
58 hits when searching for Megagrants on this server. I think "How do I make my wireframe visible on my mesh" has been pushed down to second most popular question!
summer chasm
So I guess that's a "no"...
karmic kayak
Is it a no? to which Question again?
toxic pulsar
i've applied for a megagrant. But I couldn't tell you what they really need or what they look for
west sonnet
The answer will always be yes considering there’s always thousands online at any given time
toxic pulsar
I think you can take what little information they've given at their word. They look for projects that fit their own internal criteria, and they probably favor projects with some kind of working prototype
karmic kayak
feasibility is another point
toxic pulsar
yep. real, practical, probably good looking. shows off the engine in some way. probably wouldn't hurt if it did something cutting edge with technology, like VR or AR for example
summer chasm
Thanks Iggy! My specific question is, how do I "Link to project build" for the application form? Are they looking for a github repo link or something like that?
toxic pulsar
i doubt they would actually play it before looking at a video. but if you have a build, just give them a link and keep it simple
like a steam page or whatever
karmic kayak
or ftp link to the file etc.
summer chasm
@toxic pulsar @karmic kayak Thanks! We have a video and a playable demo that closely approaches a vertical slice, just want to make sure I get the form right! FTP link is what I was thinking, I just wasn't sure if there was something more specific they needed.
Thanks again
toxic pulsar
good luck
karmic kayak
np. all the best with your application!
summer chasm
All my fingers are crossed, that's for sure.
uneven leaf
Hey everyone!
I'm looking to be an environment artist. I have traditional university schooling, so more computer science heavy.
I just enrolled in an art college, rocky mountain college of art and design (rmcad) because of the modeling/material focus the course has.
Have any of you heard of this school? If so, what have you heard? 😊
plucky hatch
Some people need the traditional school system to get started, some people dont.
But after school, you ll be on your own.
Like all the others. All that matters is your portfolio and network.
Surround yourself with some if the top artists in the business.
If you ask them short question, improve...
They wont mind helping you.
usually
And at one point you ll reach a point where you can help them too
That is the goal.
velvet crag
I'm a programmer. I have an associates degree in CS, and I've spent the last 14 months learning about UE4. I have now finished Tom Looman's, Unreal Engine 4 Mastery: Create Multiplayer Games with C++, and GameDev.tv's Unreal Multiplayer Master: Online Game Development In C++ courses on Udemy. I don't know where to go from here. I don't know what my next step should be to finding work.
lilac walrus
make something
if you've followed the tutorials and learnt from them, then that should give you some idea of how the engine works and what you can do with it
so the next step is to sit down and make something notable
either a small game prototype, or a technical feature, something along those lines
velvet crag
I was in the process of asking if It should be a game, or a feature, haha. I have a few ideas for both.
tacit siren
a plugin...
velvet crag
Should I make a plugin to sell on the store, or just throw it on github to show off?
tacit siren
start small is usually a good advice
something you can complete and polish in reasonable amount of time
tossing it on marketplace can't hurt, you can list it for free
but it being there means it passed thru the epic's scrutiny
lilac walrus
what you should make depends on what you actually want to do in your job
velvet crag
I simply enjoy the creation process. I started coding 8 years ago, and I love making things work elegantly. I'm not sure what the subsets of ue4 C++ programmers are.
tacit siren
you've been in #cpp you probably noticed all kinds
i prefer my code tidy and elegant, but when i have a deadline, it doesn't always end up that way, missing the polish pass
velvet crag
Well, if my goal is for other people to read it so they'll hire me, I should probably make the polish as important as the functionality. First impressions 🙂
If I make something for the store, and Epic denies it, will they tell me why? That could be an excellent process to continue learning.
velvet crag
That's wonderful!
narrow scaffold
is there any tips for recent grads? i have been applying to jobs but most either reject me saying they moved on with another candidate (assuming with more experience) or just dont contact back.
^ as a programmer
lilac walrus
portfolio is everything
make something
make something specific that demonstrates your ability in the field in which you want to work
vivid pivot
This ^
plucky hatch
You are lying to yourself if you think the portfolio is everything.
I just had an interview with a company for a recruiter job. Instead of hiring someone who professionally worked in game/level design, programming, 3D art and QA they preferred to hiresomeone who has a background closer to doing interviews, sourcing, etc.
Most of the times I had a recruiter that looked at my portfolio the employee literally said I have no idea what Im looking at.
And it is a huge problem in this industry.
It has been the subject of many discussions among graduates and employees in the industry for as long as I can remember.
inner anchor
eh, there are shit recruiters in every field, but that doesn't say much about what the people who are making hiring decisions care about.
jade glade
Is there the opportunity to join some hobby projects to gain more practical experience? Which sites are recommendable? I'm starting a job as a VR/AR Developer, but I also wanna work on sth in my free time as well. Working by my own does not work for me!
lilac walrus
" just had an interview with a company for a recruiter job. Instead of hiring someone who professionally worked in game/level design, programming, 3D art and QA they preferred to hiresomeone who has a background closer to doing interviews, sourcing, etc."
....because they wanted a recruiter? I mean come on now