at first I intended to enter the game developing industry, but I felt that... there was something that I lacked. I don't know
#career-chat
fluid relic
yup. that's why I may work with Unreal on demand. I'll probably form a team with people for that purpose, I don't feel like being the lead developer anymore
I know a lot of people with similar ideas and expertise, but most of them are somewhat lost in what to do. I'll probably bring them together and see what happens
but for now, back to the portfolio. I think now I got a gist of what should be done. thanks for the ideas
violet brook
Hey all! I'm looking at getting into cinematic design? Any tips creating a demo reel without having any game projects to work on?
violet brook
What skills should I have? I'm familiar with Maya for modeling and unreal for level design and lightning but I don't have much experience in mocap. I just don't know what to highlight in a reel without any projects to show off
violet brook
But good do I portray that without projects in a demo reel?
flat gazelle
Have you tried Machinima?
lilac walrus
if you're referring to the website, that doesn't exist any more
lilac walrus
fair enough
flat gazelle
This guy got hired to the DICE media team based on his screenshots.
There's a lot of storytelling going on even in those stills
This is getting old now, but it still shows off what you can do in a game that doesn't even have official modtools. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuxL3uRNigc
You don't need to build everything from scratch to tell a story
granite brook
@zinc sky #looking-for-work
iron cave
RIP RvB, and the great animator who passed away.
modern cargo
Anyone have an idea of how well blueprint is accepted in industry or is it mainly written code?
shadow kelp
if it's a UE shop...blueprints will be used. You're not likely to get anywhere if you're thinking of calling yourself a 'Blueprint Programmer' though
modern cargo
Yeh thats what i thought, i'm about to leave uni and never touched c++ but have a year experience in industry with c#
mystic hull
C++ is amazingly amazing
I've been doing C# professionally for the mostpart, but damn I've fallen in love with C++'s freedom
it's like being set free
It's not that hard to transition from C# either, if youve got some industry experience that's not web 🤔
west sonnet
Cpp is the standard in the industry mind you
mystic hull
Yeah you'll have to forget everything you know mostly
It's been relatively easy for me since I've been writing unsafe code in C# anyway, the same principles apply
The advice I can safely give though, is to try and keep track of the 50k pitfalls you could fall into 😛
Templates are practically interfaces on steroids (very oversimplified, dont judge)
and everything else is just mostly OOP, the catch is that you can literally do anything you want to do, the language doesn't restrain you in any strict way
double edged sword 🤷
finite mulch
Lots of tricky details in C++ compared to C#
mystic hull
yeah for sure
modern cargo
Guessing i could easily convert my cpu to a room heater?
mystic hull
yeah pretty much 😄
Or your brain to a jelly sandwich
depends on how you approach it 🤷
west sonnet
Foot warmer preferably 😜
mystic hull
It's really fun though tbh
finite mulch
It definitely is
mystic hull
I hadn't worked with it since I took it in college and a bit in freelance after that (C++11), but after reading a couple books on C++17 I've honestly fallen in love
Might just be my personal experience, but the transition felt seamless 🤷
finite mulch
From C# to C++?
mystic hull
Yeah, it's worth noting I've been writing game servers for about 9 months in C# now. There's a lot I usually want to do that C# just wont allow me to do safely
It just feels like C++ allows you to do things, you know
mystic hull
I've learned & worked with C++ as my first language though, so idk if thats cheating 😄
finite mulch
hehe
finite mulch
College can give you the basics
mystic hull
Heh yeah, just that sadly from my experience
finite mulch
But if it was before C++11 is doesn't really count yeah
mystic hull
yeah C++11 had just come out
I took it as C with classes back then to be fair 😛
How wrong I was 😂
@modern cargo A Tour of C++ 2nd Edition - (C++ In-Depth Series) by Bjarne Stroustrup might wanna give this book a quick go, quite effective to get you up to speed on the concepts not in C#
shadow kelp
the Scott Meyers 'Effective C++/Modern C++' books are pretty essential reading if you're new to C++ aswell imo
modern cargo
Thanks for all the information everyone, Gradex (employer faire) is about to start so I will check it out soon.
iron cave
How difficult is it from moving to C++ from basic blueprint?
shadow kelp
it's very straightforward moving from c++ to blueprint...it's just programming with nodes
iron cave
The closest to coding I've done was Lua, since programming in general gives me headache to deal with these alien hieroglyphics. Lol
finite mulch
bp to c++ with no programming xp is going to be painful
broken hollow
damn why is breaking into the games industry so heccin hard
I'm graduating with a game design bachelors degree in 2 months, all I need is a proper entry level position
shadow kelp
@iron cave sorry I completely got your question the wrong way round 😛 Moving to C++ will depend on your programming experience.
iron cave
No skills what so ever, I did a couple of months BP and a year of lua during studies. That's it.
shadow kelp
Moving straight into UE C++ can be challenging as you're not just learning basic C++, but UEs frameworks, macros etc.
I'd suggest learning the basics away from UE, so you understand classes, pointers, references etc., before you dive into coding in unreal
iron cave
Yeh. If strings RIP I'll ask a friend for help since he makes packs for the UE Market place. So least I got backup
I mean Its not the issue of not having done it. I tasted c++ but I never delved into it much because my brain is like a scrambled egg for programming. Hence I stuck with the visual graphic side of things. But I've done my fair share, and with the 100+ tuts my friend slammed me with, I should be okay.
Sometimes you got a bite the bullet though too, if its painfull I'll have to deal with it one way or another.
@@broken hollow BA in Games Design? You got a portfolio made up and a back up plan?
broken hollow
I have a portfolio
wdym back up plan 🤔
I mean if I really cant land a game design job then I'll definitely look into QA since getting a job in that is far easier
also its Bsc not BA
iron cave
Not saying it's common, maybe. And depends on location too. But as nice as it is, I had to go through various studies again after university because BA degrees for a Games course was pretty useless. Unless you did it to work in other countries. I don't expect myself to work in the industry anytime soon so retail or tech is something I have to do now too to get a basic livable wage till something happens. So you'd want to look for something you can easily.gry into in the mean time even if it's not games related till your ready.
broken hollow
so i've heard
im prepared to work in literally anything else by the time I get to work in the industry
iron cave
I did a 6 year course. It was pointless in the end for getting work.
broken hollow
thanks for the insight, though
damn
well I got my diploma in game design when I was 16 in Singapore
iron cave
Oh right.
broken hollow
then I pursued my bachelors in game design in Scotland when I was 18
now im graduating in 2 months
I still believe I have time
Also since I am an American citizen it will be easier for me to find a job in the states itself
iron cave
That's lucky since America has more to offer. I found England doesn't have those options as much unless you get a job in sumo, rockstar or Ubisoft. Or lionhead... back then. RIP
broken hollow
Oh i see
yeah I have applied to 49 different entry level positions at the moment
but I have been rejected by 11 others 😬
iron cave
But England also lacked public transport and jobs in itself depending if you live in small farm towns. Their the worst cause they only hire family and friends. So having an backup plan for a different job entirely till you get one in the industry is the best option lol.
I might look at reapplying for entries again. But no one hires musicians so I got a stick with commissions.
broken hollow
Damn
My back up plan at the moment is a very low-level Game tester position (since there is an abundance of these position in the states) or literally anything else 😛
iron cave
Well who knows, you might get super lucky like my buddy. He did a QA at Rockstar Lincoln for some time while working his second job at Aldi, got a full time programming job at Rockstar later. So who knows. Possibilities are endless.
iron cave
Plus if you get a friend in there, he technically can be classed as your reference when you apply. At least that's what I do XD.
broken hollow
yeah unfortunately I dont have any
lilac walrus
England has a huge game industry
I mean there are towns like Guildford that have something like 10+ studios, let alone in the cities
iron cave
Depends on locations and region. Lincolnshire has only one studio lol. Otherwise you'd need to drive 4 hours to the next one.
broken hollow
@iron cave I do hope you get into the industry soon enough
what are you aiming for exactly?
3d artist/game design?
iron cave
At the mo music really, with 3D if I keep going. But otherwise Jack of all trades, master of none.
So hence I am doing commissions with my music till something bites.
lilac walrus
Lincoln is in the middle of nowhere
plenty of studios in Sheffield or Nottingham though
broken hollow
nice
iron cave
Aye. Ah well. Got a see what Germany offers.
lilac walrus
Germany has a few studios, but the vast majority are web and mobile
iron cave
Aye. But least there is internet
tidal moth
Germany used to be more prosperous with studios... nowadays it seems there's far fewer, or perhaps just more indie studios around
but in general if you're not a programmer or wanting to do a good deal of QA for work, you need a solid portfolio
we got QAs we might consider training to become designers, but even so they have to work out designs in their spare time and show us they are willing and able if they want to come on board
iron cave
Pretty much.
mystic hull
@iron cave that's only efficient if you plan on working indie, if you want to get into tripleA you pretty much have to specialize 🤔
iron cave
Pretty much planning on working on Indie.
3D Modelling/Environment and Music is pretty much those 3 main ques. And the music is strictly Indie only.
slim whale
@broken hollow Let me know if you are still actively looking here in the US
I can help you secure a job
DM me your CV and portfolio
Thanks!
violet brook
@broken hollow Not to be a Debbie downer but I graduated three years ago and I'm still looking. I couldn't even land a QA job and I live in a pretty heavy game dev city.
broken hollow
how's that?
violet brook
You definitely want to have a solid game plan on what you want to do career wise. Don't be a jack of all trades, master of none type because that won't get you a job.
tidal moth
^
broken hollow
I have applied to other positions that are unrelated to game design as well
unrelated to the games industry actually
violet brook
I'm in a job that I honestly loathe that's not remotely related to game dev. I wanted to break in as a producer but I'm starting to pivot more towards cinematics.
tidal moth
don't think producer is a role you can break in with... easily, at least
broken hollow
yeah
tidal moth
it's a management role, and juniors and management are opposite ends of the spectrum
broken hollow
at least like an entry level design position or internship at best
violet brook
Unless you get in as an intern or QA it's basically impossible. I tried to pivot to project management and have experience in advertising and outsourcing. I actually managed to get some pretty high profile interviews when I first graduated but I'm stuck in a rut now
Producer vis my end goal. I was looking to break in as a PA but those jobs are few and far between.
broken hollow
violet brook
That's why I'm leaning towards cinematics. I've also always loved the intersection between movies and games so that's why I'm doing cinematics now
violet brook
I have projects from college. After a year of looking I gave up and took the job I have now. How that I've been here for almost two years it's starting to get to me that I feel shame whenever people ask me about my job so I'm learning stuff in my off time.
tidal moth
yeah projects from college aren't going to be enough most of the time
you need to show willingness to do it on your own as well
violet brook
It's much harder to do working a 8-5, working out, coming home at 9, and repeating five days a week vs when I was a student.
So don't screw up like I did. Have a solid defined job you want, learn the skills needed, and apply for those specific positions.
broken hollow
Thats very informative, cheers
Im currently applying for positions related to the movie/television side of things mainly disney
as an intern
I hope I get in there at least!
violet brook
Don't waste so much time that you end up having to take anything to pay the bills
tidal moth
that's for you to manage. I get what you're saying, but you need to be clear with yourself whether or not the path you want is worth the effort. for me it was never a question, and so I did it despite working and studying. I still come home from work, and work on my own projects in my spare time. even if I am working in the industry
violet brook
seelio.com/jpgarcia6 is my portfolio website. Working von switching to Artstation once I have not stuff to show off
I interviewed for Disney interactive the day they got shutdown
@tidal moth the thing is that I have very little spare time. I get one hour max during the work week. What I'm telling the other guy is to have a specific job you want now while you still have all the time in the world to perfect your skills
tidal moth
I agree, I mentioned that as well. It's fair if it's just for information's sake, but I had another guy come in and complain about how he's struggling to find time to work on his stuff
and to be honest, recruiters aren't going to care about a spiel like that
violet brook
I'm willing to put in the work but I wish I had known I wanted to do cinematics four years ago when I was a student and my job was basically to learn. Even if I dedicate my entire weekend I can maybe get ten hours of learning can week if I'm lucky.
iron cave
Hence partime jobs seem best fitting to put the other effort into the work on what you want to do.
coral nacelle
Sometimes part time jobs dont pay the bills
iron cave
Depends on your situation.
coral nacelle
Indeed
violet brook
Part time jobs don't pay the bills and living with my parents isn't an option
iron cave
Well, so long you avoid Zero Hour contracts, you'll be fine.
Also, isn't Intern mostly done via schools/colleges and such? During studies?
Wouldn't it be best to hammer out for apprenticeships?
coral nacelle
Can be for during or after. Depends.
iron cave
Wish my end date was later, the internships are all after 2018. Which kind'a sucks.
So Apprenticeships are the only other option in the study segment.
coral nacelle
I've managed to get a teaching role while still in Uni which is helpful
can hopefully continue it after as well
iron cave
Sounds good.
coral nacelle
Yeah it is. Lots of good experience in teaching
iron cave
@violet brook I had the same feeling, when I worked as a Warehouse Operator, completely different path to where I was going. Felt a bit embarrassed to talk about what my job is. But with zero hour contract the work hours were not worth the money, so least the job lasted 3 months.
plucky hatch
That's the main job I get, it's one of the only ones without much vetting process. Care industry also seems ready to take almost anyone (non criminal)
iron cave
Aye, but not every warehouse operator job is "Pleasant", stress I can handle, but working in a dangerous environment with barely any safety regulations is a death sentence, and being forced to work almost every day without a contract, with not enough pay tends to suck your life out.
plucky hatch
Where do you live
Can't even try and sue if they breach health and safety because it takes too long and they'll fire you because they can and you can't afford to miss paychecks... When I was doing my worst jobs I lived with my mum though
One I am in now is hard but not abusive or anything hopefully won't be there long
Tbh there is not actually that much risk normally, risks are long term stuff like breathing in hazardous chemicals
iron cave
I still live with my parents, so I had it easy. A friend of mine had a job at packing stuff, easy enough. Got the job through him (Since it's no longer what you know but who you know.) The Zero Hour Contract debacle is horrible. The main issue with the health and safety is basically supervisors not doing their job, and we had to work around the problems of machines going faulty and such.
All I was getting was a grand a month, working almost 40 hours a week. 3 months later I got removed cause the head wanted their daughter to work there and I was the weakest chain. Honestly best choice, cause I was able to now put 100% on my music. But if a job turns up I'll take it till I hook a good bait.
plucky hatch
What machines though
The thing is zero hours are easy to get so if they make them illegal it'll cost people like you and I jobs...
A good solution maybe is graded pay systems on performance as long as they don't abuse it too much. So they don't feel the need to fire you if you aren't breaking your back every day
iron cave
Mostly packing machines, at times I had to operate compressors and such and cutters. And they tend to break down, only way was to literally stick your hand in to fix that. I noped out'a there faster then Jenkings did.
plucky hatch
Yeah some places are very very dodgy
iron cave
They meant to pay you the average rate that's in the UK. which is 7.80 I believe for 18+
If I am standing correct.
plucky hatch
But go for something like Tesco warehouse, boring maybe but you can trust them on legalities
iron cave
But I got paid less, as a 25 year old I should be paid the actual wage.
Ah well, Tesco doesn't exist in Germany.
So it's Aldi, Penny, Edeka, eh... Lidle. So forth.
plucky hatch
Yeah I worked somewhere like that some crackhead tried to strangle me so left
iron cave
But I did a commission, which I got paid for so it's the first step in getting somewhere. And if I continue doing more of them I'll eventually build a big enough profile to get the attention needed to make more stuff and get paid while working from home.
While not everyone needs a musician, there's always a ton of Indie devs who need someone.
But I might look at doing standard music too, and not strictly video game music. So I could develop two things for two paths.
plucky hatch
Spend a bit of time going for more comfy jobs
Also Amazon... They'll fire you probably in the end or you'll get sick of their crap, but if you do overtime over Christmas a few months you earn quite a lot
iron cave
Actually since I am bilingual I should be able to hit some of the Translator jobs. Even Oil companies need them. And were I live there are a couple of major oil companies who require office people, translators and so forth. Close to home, hours seem good enough to manage too.
plucky hatch
That's another option maybe apply to a job like that once in a while and have a backup
iron cave
Yeh.
warm hare
Are there any ui developers here that need some work? I am terrible at ui
plucky hatch
How good do you need
iron cave
I think there is a channel specifically for asking/hiring.
But I am sure you'll find someone lol.
warm hare
Just simple, I'm making a cowboys and Indians indie game on ue 4 it's my first game so yeah
plucky hatch
Oh I would then if I wasn't on my own project yeah ask in the #looking-for-talent :p
iron cave
I think it's a bot command? Ask one of the forum mods bud.
plucky hatch
@iron cave tried selling your stuff?
iron cave
I have. I used to sell a old music pack on Unreal Market.
But I removed it, because as I progressed in improvement and started my first Commission I decided to remove it completely and potentially restart in making a whole new set.
And then sell that.
plucky hatch
But if it's still on marketplace maybe people will buy? Or is there a fee or something idk
And if you're worried about your image maybe you could have two accounts?
Forgive me if I'm ignorant
iron cave
Oh it's not I am worried about my Image. [I don't even have one to start with, I am none existent.] I am wanting to remake some of my old sci-fi tracks and remake a sci-fi track pack. Then continue making another set and so forth. Just the one I made only had maybe 7 sales and eventually collected dust. So I got rid of it to potentially improve. And doing commissions sorta helps me get a little more notice, even if it's not much.
plucky hatch
Hmm well if it's only a very few sales maybe that's ok. But generally it'd be better to keep stuff up until you replace it... As long as you make it clear to people bits changed
That's what I would do not that I've got f all for sale XD
iron cave
It's been pretty quiet, about a year so I took it down for the time being to rework things.
tacit heath
How large/ good/ impressive must a portfolio project be to get an internship at a small studio? I am curently programming a loot shooter prototype in UE4, using mostly C++, with items pickups inventory, covers, AI etc. ..
I am coming slowly close to feature completion and want to use it to get an internship somewhere to finish my university degree - anyhow, I am afraid that general expectations are very high, therefore I would love to hear from people who have more insight on the topic, how much one must deliver with a solo project for an internship at a small to medium studio?
lilac walrus
things don't need to be big
they need to demonstrate your capabilities
small projects that can be put together in a week are often sufficient
tacit heath
ah okay, I see. mhhh yeah mine is quite a lot bigger ... mhhhh ... could also be bad then xD
iron cave
Well not necessarily. If your project is big, but you made it yourself, you put the time/effort into it. And it has features that's important to the person looking over it, it's not usually bad.
But making smaller finished projects, as Amber said, is the way to go.
I'd recommend avoiding making the same thing too. Make a collection of various different things too, it helps showcase you have the ability to program various features and assets.
tacit heath
yeah I will definitely finish it, I avoided bringing stuff in that prevents me from finishing it, like super complex AI, Multiplayer, vendors etc.
The only things I am currently missing is a pause menu, a minimap and an objective system. once these are done, I will create a simple level, with set objectives that are guiding the player through it an it is done. Maybe I will build a save system, but not sure yet....
iron cave
One step at a time, but sounds like you know what you are doing!
tacit heath
Mhh, thnaks its nice to hear that^^ since programming is a world where you somehow never feel like you got somewhere, since there is always lying soooo much ahead of you to learn and explore^^'
iron cave
For me it's a huge headache. I can never tell where it starts and where it ends hah!
narrow vigil
small projects that can be put together in a week are often sufficient
So would game jam projects be a pretty good example then? Assuming that they are polished.
iron cave
That's one of the many ways you can do.
And I know multiple discord groups focused on game design that do monthly or so gamejams to help develop small projects to the finished core for portfolio building.
But if there's no gamejams at the moment, find people who want to build a small little project, because while building stuff alone is great, doing stuff in a team also helps as it shows you can work in a team-based environment.
honest cipher
a Small project that gets released has FAR better value that an over ambitious project that never gets released
a very basic 2d plataformer that you actually "finish" and release on steam/itch has a lot more value than a very complicated MMO engine that you never release
iron cave
Yup.
And the amount of people you meet who give the "I have a really huge idea and I bet the company can use it." Ideas only work if their on paper and have been made real.
tacit heath
mhhh, I think I have something in between. it is not overly simple and has a core of features but is finishable by me
polar spruce
@tacit heath also i can recommend put project's milestones on twitter
with appropriate hashtags
tacit heath
I made a very basic one level 2D castlevania sidescroller in unity before. also with usable items and a very simple boss at the end, but didn't feel like thats enough. But I hope that my current project is finished in the coming months and I can start applying
polar spruce
in general recruiters look at 4 axis of the potential candidate:
1.can (have skills)
2.will (desire to work)
3.controllable/compatible (with team/lead)
4.safe (will not harm company)
tacit heath
yeah, makes sense
iron cave
I don't know about number 4. I don't recall a programmer coding Skynet into the system Lol.
tacit heath
I suppose thats more stuff like reliability, coming to work, not being hunted by the secret service :p
does it help that I have industry experience or is that irrelevant? besides studying I also work as development tester for a big publisher and have one shipped title in that position so far
since it is not in a direct programming role
iron cave
Almost no one has industrial experience, unless you got lucky and your school allowed you to take a internship for the semester. Most people either got in through portfolio work working at home, or through referals and work. Most senior jobs ask about industrial experience, some junior jobs too. But I've seen people apply for Junior positions even if it says "Have 2+ years industrial experience."
Speaking mostly about people who left education, who worked other things and made projects on the side and got in. Those who have been working in the Industry will have it easier cause they worked in a studio.
tacit heath
oh very nice! thats good to know
iron cave
Thats from personal experience. Most of the guys I've known during my studies only a couple of them got in. The rest sorta did their own thing. But those who did get in were NOT industrial experienced, they are just like me, a dude who studied a course, and works at home with projects to build a portfolio. They got a job in the industry. So do not get put off when applications state about industrial experience requirements.
Just focus on what YOU want to do and achieve, improve your skill set, if programming is what you want to do. Go nuts and keep going while building a portfolio to show your work and improving progression. Like people here said before, if it shows you've worked hard, you are willing to learn, make new things. You should have no issues in getting work.
tacit heath
nice to meet a fellow german btw :p
iron cave
Well, semi German. I moved back to Deutschland due to work issues and well, Brexit in general. But born German, so working my behind off to get my mother tongue back aha.
iron cave
Can one of the forum <@&213101288538374145> take down my "Looking for work" post on #looking-for-work please? I need to re-do some stuff and sort of messed it up since I didn't realize you had a set timer to get it sorted and posted.
narrow vigil
So for someone without a degree looking to try and find a internship or entry level job what would your portfolio need to look like? Also is it better to use a game engine of build from scratch. (For a gameplay programmer)
iron cave
Don't bother looking for Internships.
You want to look for apprenticeships.
Unless you are still studying, then you have a chance to do a internship if the company offers it, or your school can provide it. Otherwise, literally work at home, practice and practice hours on end and perfect your portfolio till you think it's ready to hand out for work for junior positions.
narrow vigil
So for the most part internships are a waste of time trying to get?
lilac walrus
"apprenticeships" don't tend to exist in the industry, because they are indistinguishable from internships
iron cave
Yeah, but being guaranteed a internship tends to be difficult unless your courses managed to set one up for you. Hence why a lot of the times now companies offer internships during school leavers and graduate programs.
So if you graduated this year and they have a internship going FOR graduates of 2019 or so, you're lucky, unless they changed the rules about it.
Just build the portfolio, do stuff at home and improve, then start tossing applications and while you wait for one to bite, keep building the portfolio.
lilac walrus
you're never guaranteed an internship to be fair, and most companies simply don't do them
interns are expensive, and there are so many graduates out there it's ridiculous
the UK farts out 2000 games graduates a year now
the UK industry employs 10,000 people total
that includes things like HR and administrative support roles, and all levels of experience of course
so the number of Junior positions is more likely around 4-500, and they're mostly going to be filled by existing staff
the number of positions available for interns is going to be a fraction of that again
my honest opinion, is that it isn't even worth looking for an internship
do your own stuff in your own time, make decent projects and learn how to do things
flat gazelle
Damn, I thought there were loads more in the UK industry
lilac walrus
the UK industry is the biggest in Europe by far, but it's still small
flat gazelle
Yeah, but 10k is lower per capita than I expected
Sweden passed 5k in 2017 and is growing fast
lilac walrus
aye, but they'll cap out sooner rather than later
I think the Swedish industry is starting to reach it's saturation point
flat gazelle
I think it just passed the tipping point for attracting more international talent.
A lot of studios opened ion the last 24 months and they are recruiting agressively.
iron cave
The fact that they don't warn you about that in studies is much more scarier.
All you ever get told is "Don't be upset if you are not guaranteed a job in the industry." Only to find out that it gets harder the more people graduate, kind'a glad now that only 20 of us made it out of the 60 odd students. Thing is, if teachers are aware about the mass army of people flooding the industry, why would they continue these courses if it is almost guaranteed you will not get a job? At this rate people should just avoid the course completely and study something completely different to help them gain a job that is possible to obtain, THEN seek the industry when time allows it. I understand people freelance, and it offers other hobbies then just the Gaming Industry, since people who know 3D design cars, housing districts, what not. But the more and more you all discuss this, the more it's becoming clear that colleges/universities should honestly make Games Design redundant in general. Especially if you can learn literally everything at home with books and tutorials.
lilac walrus
they continue the courses because they're guaranteed money makers
it's not about the students
the other problem is that the vast majority of graduates just don't have the skills they need to actually do the job
I'd be happy to see every single "Game Design" course eradicated from existence, because they're entirely usless
ashen lynx
Over saturation with graduates is going to be a major issue in upcoming years. We already have a dozen of faculties across several universities teaching game-dev related disciplines while there is one and a half studio in the country.
honest cipher
its even more absurd in spain
we have multiple thousands of graduates around right now
there literally isnt any big studio
not one
tequila games is more like multiple medium studios, and mercury has downsized HARD and is in no position of hiring anyone
the rest are just B studios of other companies, or just indies
salaries in the game industry, speciall in the junior side, are crashing incredibly hard
iron cave
Isn't that the same issue with what the English Government is talking about? "We want more graduates.... But we can't afford more jobs for graduates." And I understand about the whole money maker, a games course costs almost £40K for 3 years.
And you learn... Almost nothing.
I've learned more at home, then i did in my 6 years in college/uni.
dense plank
Doesn't really surprise me that the size of the UK games industry is that small. Most of the large studios went under about 8-10 years ago, so there aren't very many large AAA shops left. A lot of people who were around in the industry at that time, ended up going off to other countries (Canada and the US in particular)
honest cipher
in spain it was an absolute bloodbath @dense plank
every studio died beetween 2005 and 2010
they got caught off guard by both piracy, steam, and mobile gaming
iron cave
Wouldn't be surprised that we'll have another video game crash.
honest cipher
nah, not at all
dense plank
I think we were a bit luckier in my neck of the woods (Dundee, Scotland). Realtime Worlds went under, as did a lot of studios in England (like Bizarre Creations), but there were a lot of options at smaller companies, or some of the remaining AAA companies if I'd wanted to stay in the UK.
iron cave
It's as if, we should no longer focus on game design and maybe just do other things that allow us to gain a job.
honest cipher
way ahead of you XD. High end programming is sought after everywhere
iron cave
Issue is, by the time you learn it, it's going to be too mainstream and overfilled.
Problem is that everything is no longer "Rarity", so if you think of being a artist or designer, by the time you get to the level the industry wants. You are pretty much fucked cause... There's about 10000+ guys behind you.
I've already pondered hard if it's worth chasing the dragon because like, no matter how hard you try, is it worth it at the end though?
dense plank
It's a bit easier for programmers, since it's relatively easy to switch to another industry if you really have to
and I feel that the need for programmers is likely growing a lot faster than the number of sufficiently experienced programmers
kind crater
does a degree help landing a job in gamedev?
dense plank
It's not essential but it can help getting a foot in the door.
Later in your career it's useful if you want to find work in other countries
I do know fantastic programmers in the industry that didn't get a degree though
iron cave
Yeah, true, but I am talking more or less from the standpoint of people who tried to sought out one topic, but ended up noticing they no longer can do it because... Let's be honest, there's so many. Look at music, I've been looking more and more at composing and realized that maybe I should quit, it's getting harder to keep it as a job in itself when people can go on websites to get free sounds and music, which sort'a ruins the point of yourself making it. Modeling wise, there's millions out there already and regardless of what you make, it's been done. Trying to find a style that hasn't been done is nonexistant.
It's a sucky situation. If I even try to program myself, where the heck do I start, you know? How do I avoid my brain turning into mush every time I try to understand where the heck the code starts, where it ends, how to implement it and so forth.
Plus don't you need some knowledge of mathematics?
dense plank
Yeah I feel lucky that I grew up when computers were so primitive, it basically gave me an easy foot in the door with computer programming, before the field absolutely exploded. Now there's so much out there, it can be easy to get paralysed thinking about where to start
You need some knowledge of mathematics, but it depends on what you do. Some areas of programming in the industry aren't very math heavy imho.
Gameplay programming for example, 99% of the math I look at is basically just simple vector, matrix or quaternion stuff
iron cave
Well the main question is. Is it worth even trying to do something for the industry when someone else can do it 100% better then you and there's probably thousands of people before you?
kindred mason
@iron cave Yes
iron cave
Cause I am contimplating about my music, and since I am getting more and more negative reviews, its becoming quite a pain to deal with, because it's ruining my confidence to even keep going.
kindred mason
The answer will always be yes
iron cave
It's a tricky situation though, no?
kindred mason
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE BETTER THAN YOU IN ANY JOB FIELD
Unless you have some 500 IQ and on top of the world
dense plank
I was just about to say that
iron cave
I mean, I know that. Just look at Japan.
kindred mason
You just gotta play the game man
iron cave
Not being racist, but the Japanese are fking cray.
The shit they can do mind blows me so hard.
kindred mason
My game has been this since day one starting out in game dev... I pick a person that I want to be as good at or better
dense plank
there's always someone better than you, ultimately the way I see it is that that's an incentive to strive for constant improvement
kindred mason
I succeed
Pick a new person
There are people I know that are way out of my league (for now)
So I pick reasonable gains 😃
iron cave
Technically in here, so far from what I've seen, everyones way out of my league lol
kindred mason
Don't forget...these people...are doing the same thing
They want to be better and better
So, some of these fools...you need to double your effort to beat out
It's all worth it in the end..trust me
I started out with little to my name (other than my lovely trolling)
iron cave
Lel.
kindred mason
I now have a very successful and growing business
dense plank
that's part of the reason I'm messing around a lot with Unreal in my spare time. To keep certain skills sharp that I'm not currently exercising at work
and also improve my skills in areas of my discipline that I haven't spent a lot of time in professionally
kindred mason
But uh
First thing's first
Fix your freaking attitude
If you go in with a shit attitude...you won't get anywhere
iron cave
Wait, how you mean? I've never talked down to anyone, or ever thought I was better. Unless it's my depressive attitude where I never like anything I make, then fair enough.
kindred mason
yeah
If you come in with a negative attitude, like "Oh...it's so hard... I can't do it... how do I succeed when people are better than me"
Well, that just affects your view. Perverses it in a negative way.
However, if you flipped that mentality.
dense plank
yeah not attitude in the sense of "you're being a dick", attitude in the sense of "the way you're thinking about this might be sabotaging your potential"
kindred mason
^
iron cave
Thing is, I am aware that a lot of this is hard, even when I first started the course in general I knew it'll be hard as heck to pull off. The only reason I am so super depressive and struggling to the breaking point is simply due to IRL problems that I went through that caused me to be, well, this. And the amount of rejections from jobs including jobs where I tried to do training for didn't help the situation either. So this whole situation is fucking me over mentally and physically.
kindred mason
Trust me. Everyone probably thinks about it in the beginning, so I can't rag on you. I didn't but...I have a huge optimistic view on the world sometimes.
I also have a great need to make money.
Without money, I can't do anything. Because the world makes me pay for shit.
But don't think you won't struggle
It's definitely not all rainbows and unicorns.
iron cave
Of course.
kindred mason
But, each challenge can be overcome with enough guts perseverance
Some guts probably help though
honest cipher
a good approach is the "i can do that too", merged with "believe in yourself"
kindred mason
Yup
honest cipher
ive been growing as a programmer like crazy precisely due to that kind of mindset
some people see guys like carmack or mike acton, and go "pff, ill never be as good as that". For me its a target
kindred mason
You know...I never knew who Mike Acton was until someone posted some twitter thing yesterday
I'm sure I had heard his name before
But he was never on my radar
honest cipher
@kindred mason the guy behind the whole data-oriented programming paradigm
kindred mason
Carmack of course...anyone doing VR nowadays
honest cipher
he is Mike "god of caches" Acton
honest cipher
was engine lead of Imsomniac
kindred mason
I want ECS in UE4
honest cipher
he is now the lead of the entire data-oriented stack of unity
kindred mason
Like by default
honest cipher
and btw, imsoniac engine tech level is through the roof
they have been allways using custom engines, and not precisely making crappy games
look at Spiderman
Mike Acton was still leading that until the engine was done, and then he moved to unity
kindred mason
Insomniac uses UE3.5?
kindred mason
I wonder if someone's bothered to research if it's worth doing that nowadays
honest cipher
editor as a web app
honest cipher
their idea was mostly so people would open the URL of the asset repo
and would see all the files for the entire project
and could click on something to edit
honest cipher
actually not a bad idea whatsoever. Stuff was just not ready
kindred mason
anyway, he's been working on his RPG for like years, game engine from scratch
honest cipher
you mean the guy who is making a game from scratch
kindred mason
What a waste of time imho
honest cipher
and has been doing for years
not really, its super interesting
he is going WAY beyond normal
kindred mason
Of course he is
honest cipher
its an educational project
kindred mason
But think about it
honest cipher
the maniac was even doing his own rendering without api
kindred mason
He could have shipped it in 1/4th the time
honest cipher
literally using assembly to draw into screen buffers
kindred mason
And customized any decent engine
honest cipher
later down the line he just grabbed SDL
kindred mason
heh
honest cipher
but the point of doing the software renderer himself was to show how its done
as an educational project its damn great
kindred mason
there we go
took some time Googling
doesn't even use Patreon
Has his own custom fund
honest cipher
lmao
iron cave
Only big question is, how super duper difficult is programming, where do I go, how do I start and what can I do? I've seen most of my friends do it, but, yeah.
honest cipher
btw, for yall lurking. Watching the entire thing is impossible. Its too long
but you can find chapters/videos of stuff that piques your interest
@iron cave get book
follow book
make computer do stuff
proceed to keep learning for your entire life of random articles and other books
iron cave
We talking actual book, or tutorials?
honest cipher
actual book
honest cipher
pretty much
kindred mason
Only way to really get in there and learn is by doing
honest cipher
im allways making some random project
honest cipher
and i actively try to make the projects on stuff i dont fully know to increase knowledge
kindred mason
Doing even more. Succeeding every once in awhile 😉
iron cave
And how difficult is it to draw?
kindred mason
Obviously, eventually... it will flip. You'll succeed more than fail...but failures are key to gamedev
honest cipher
both art and code are similar in the fact that they tend to be grindfest
kindred mason
Well, now you're asking silly questions
honest cipher
but art is more of a grindfest
kindred mason
I thought you were a Sound Dev
kindred mason
Why waste two years of your life studying Sound Dev
honest cipher
spectacularely huge amounts of it
kindred mason
To focus on something else
honest cipher
on programming you can study a bit and be confortable fairly quick
i would also kinda say both art and programming need talent
kindred mason
All fields need it imho
honest cipher
artists need vision and imagination, programming needs curiosity and logic thinking
iron cave
Well with music composing I don't feel like the blood I am putting in isn't going very far, and plus I don't really know what I am doing half the time.
kindred mason
But you need more than "let's try to learn how to draw/model"
iron cave
Hence why I don't even put a price on my work. Technically.
The whole £10 per minute deal I've seen majority of composers do, or at least request that if you are super new you want to be cheap till you feel your work is better. Buuut mine is super low quality, it lacks stuff a lot and I usually only play in certain styles. So guess it's pretty much super cheap. So in general it's like, what do, heh.
iron cave
Yeah I tried that, when I was posting that I was free for work I didn't get the most kindest offers. Mostly about how my music is very low quality and that I should do another 3 years worth of practicing before I even begin putting money myself. Problem is, I can't continue doing another 3 years of free practice and work when I need to be able to survive, you know?
As a example, only reason I got into video game music was due to Frank Klepacki, cause... Well, he's my god. So, that's what got me into it, and cause I thought it's a creative way to let yourself go nuts on making stuff.
Although safe to say, I think Reddit isn't the best place to ask for work XD
honest cipher
reddit is kind of a cesspool
i put some offers for artists, and got shit
no one was worth much
iron cave
Negative comments?
honest cipher
no, just low skill
iron cave
Oh, you mean like you asked for Artists but those that replied were not up to the standard you wanted?
honest cipher
indeed. Pretty terrible in general
iron cave
Oofh.
Well, the thing is all I can do right now is expect the feedback once my friend's game is pushed into steam. Since my music is on it, I'll be expecting some flooding of feedback one way or another. At least I can see from there how much I messed up, or if I did okay.
pallid whale
hi guys 😃 right now im finishing my bachelor exams and started looking for internships. When i write my resume, and link to my work. is it better to have artstation link, or a link to my own homepage. or does it matter?
ashen lynx
Does not matter, as long as you keep your portfolio design clean.
pallid whale
ok, thanks @ashen lynx
iron cave
A lot of people use Artstation, including those who work at the studios. It's a nifty tool, and can find work as well via Artstation. But you can use that, your own website, or something else, all depends on what you are aiming to do.
karmic kayak
Artstation has one major plus point. It's easy to navigate and most likely not super cluttered. Some custom folios are the opposite.
And since a person hiring won't have the time to navigate cluttered pages....
you know.
iron cave
Yup, but you can also follow artists and get feedback, even speak to the big shots in the industry since there's lots of them using it as their portfolio.
echo fossil
highly recommend artstation
My current employer actually found me through it
not saying that will happen to you, but its a good platform to host your stuff.
iron cave
Aye, but again it also depends on what you do. Since Animation, Model, Art, uh... Programming? And other technical and visual bits can be easily shown on Artstation by imagery or videos. I think project files work too? Audio wise you got soundcloud and other sound based areas. But building a portfolio from that is a tad difficult. Although I do finally have a video of a game with my stuff on it, so I can add that to my Artstation finally.
lilac walrus
programming is pretty difficult to demonstrate in a portfolio, but audio tends to be pretty easy
design is the hard one, since it's so intangible
iron cave
Aye.
Audio wise, like you said, is easy, yeah. Just put it in a game that fits the tune. I should maybe overplay mine on XCOM sometime as part of it. Or would I need to have the song actually in the game itself as a representation on how it fits?
lilac walrus
mute the music in-game, record it, then play yours in the video, potentially
extra points if you can actually mod a game and get your music in
iron cave
The closest I got at the moment is a actual game that's being put on steam soon that has my actual music in.
So, that's worth some bonus points, no?
I might look at XCOM 2 and see if I can learn how to mod it, by simply adding a soundtrack to the base theme, I got a suitable one, just the matter of how I go about it, eheh.
tidal moth
I'd be happy to see programming served as a presentation or comments on top of actual code so I could see how they figured out certain problems
but then I'm not a programmer
plucky hatch
Good day everyone. I would like to post a request for job, can somebody remind me please which command response for this and can I add rtf file to it with links of my works?
tidal moth
plucky hatch
@tidal moth Sorry but I cannot write any commands there. Is this a problem?
iron cave
iNo.
You need to pm the bot yourself.
So click on the bot, PM it and follow the command process in the pinned messages.
digital gate
pretty sure that's all outlined in the instructional text
tidal moth
oh you mean the thing people don't read
digital gate
oh you mean that thing that he was told to read
tidal moth
yeah that was kind of my point
digital gate
Well my point is, were I hiring an intern blueprinter, I'd pass based on his inability to follow basic direction
tidal moth
I'd never hire someone exclusively on their ability to blueprint stuff if they had no further specialization. but yeah, not being able to figure out stuff on your own is detrimental
digital gate
0/10 presentation
2/10 content
0/10 effort
iron cave
What we discussing?
digital gate
I'm just supplying feedback on his lfw post
iron cave
Oh, the guy who was asking where to post/how to post?
digital gate
ye
iron cave
Ah.
Oh I see.
Very short description, not really any details on what he is actually looking for in relation to work. Just lots of links.
digital gate
I encourage you to pick 2/3 at random
iron cave
The detail of the post, or the links?
digital gate
links, obv
iron cave
Aight, ini-miney-moh.
Ah.
I see what you mean, pre-record presentation where you don't edit the vid on the main points, just record from where you press start on the record button to finish, no explanatory details on what it is we're looking at. I can't really say anything here though, I've had my moments where I made these mistakes. I didn't publish them or showed them to job offers, but yeah i see the mistakes there.
digital gate
Also you open with fences.
mesh swapping is one of the first things anybody should learn in an engine
if that's your first link, it better be good because it's basically the only one everybody will consistently pick to view
iron cave
Just like a CV most of the time. Short, sweet and the details need to benefit on what you are applying for.
digital gate
Spend an afternoon making a set of video highlights - one for each discipline. Should be ~45s or less. Show each thing you want to, and explain how you accomplished it.
It's okay to use one sample for multiple discliplines.
if you can't shrink it below 45s, start cutting showcased projects
only show your best
iron cave
Yeh, I am re-doing most of my stuff and trying to rebuild my portfolio. Since some of the stuff I did I no longer do, so at the moment I only have one gameplay demo of a game with my music in it, next am planning on modding a game with my current music to help present how it would work and sound like. Least that seems easy enough to do for a video. And having done vids before for portfolios and presentation I should be ok.
wary vessel
Hey, I’m an audio designer that works with Unreal. I currently work at Supermassive games in the UK. I’m looking for UE4 levels people have made, to contribute audio to and experiment with audio implementation. Not work, just for fun. I would particularly like to work with a large forest. Is this the best channel to find people willing to share environments?
iron cave
That's a negative. You're best bet is to check the work or collab channels.
digital gate
not tonight, but potentially in the future depending on what you play
floral scroll
If anyone is interested in trying out some character designing (fake 3D - basically 2D) and making some money outta it, then feel free to check out my poster in #looking-for-talent !
fathom oasis
@wary vessel there is a cute forest thing thats free on the marketplace
also the kite demo
wary vessel
Thanks @fathom oasis i’ll check it out. I want something large to work with so maybe I can take the assets and spread them out
fathom oasis
Definitely check out the marketplace, theres like particle effects, animations, and all sorts of stuff if you're wanting to learn how to do frame triggered sounds or other stuff. Also, I'm a sound designer who's been using UE4 for like 4 years now so if you have any questions hmu @wary vessel
wary vessel
I’ve done a fair bit of that already. Just wrapping up a project now. I don’t really want to spend more time doing dev when there’s 1000’s of people out there doing it better than me, which is why I thought i would reach out on here but thank you for your advice.
pallid whale
Hi guys, im working on my CV/resume today and i was wondering if there are someone in here that could help me by looking over these lines and tell me if there are any gramatical or spelling mistakes, because english is not my native language. That would we so awesome! 😁
Hi! I am a third year student in Games, Animation and Visual Effects at Truemax Academy
Copenhagen, with a major in Modeling and Environment for games.
I am looking for an internship in Europe starting this summer.
Titles like Wolfenstein and Quake made me fall in love with gaming from an early age.
Paint and canvas eventually fused with the digital arts, and combined with a deep passion for games, everything came together.
hazy zealot
@pallid whale everything makes sense apart from the last line imo
pallid whale
Okay. Thanks @hazy zealot
warm hare
Is anyone looking for a blender modeler, I model weapons like guns, swords, cannons etc
lilac walrus
iron cave
Oofh, I need to remind myself to learn blender again
plucky hatch
Hi Guys im Frosty and I'm planning on making a Five nights at Freddy's fan game wich is gonna be free roam and multi-player but don't expect so much from me okay? I'm only 13 years old and it's gonna be my first time working with unreal engine 4 sooo it's probably gonna take a long time when I'm finished with it and will probably ask maaaany questions throughout my years. And I'm German so don't get upset if I make many wrong sentences. What are you suggesting to me for my start on unreal engine 4?
lilac walrus
something a million times smaller than what you're proposing
try an old arcade game like Space Invaders or Breakout
before that, absolute basic tutorials
plucky hatch
Oh man I want a free roam online fnaf game so badly ;( is unreal engine really a coding engine so where u have to type stuff in? I already did that on processing and made pong
daring parrot
no, but you have to understand how the engine works
and that's gonna take a while
there are a couple of solid youtube beginners series out there, but I don't know them off the top of my head 😃
plucky hatch
Okay thank you for the answer!
How long does it usually take to learn it to make a game like joy of creation if u know that Game?
fickle hatch
It takes about 3,000 hours to get good at something and around 10,000 hours to be professional at it
At 8 hours per day, that's 1 year and 4 years correspondingly
plucky hatch
OK well then it will take for me maybe 2-3 years to learn it? I can't really sit 8 hours a day on that maybe 2 hours and 4 Max
daring parrot
tbh just get started and you'll get a feel for what you can and can't do without assistance
daring parrot
as you learn unreal you'll also need to dip into other fields like animation/modelling/etc
fickle hatch
Yeah that would be a more reasonable expectation. It’s all about practice and experience and you need lots of it
daring parrot
I'd say 1 year @ 8 hours a day is a good target for being able to pull through a simple project without assistance
plucky hatch
How long did it take for you guys to learn it and what have you accomplished so far?
daring parrot
I can't give you a good answer for that 😃
plucky hatch
Okay ;D
daring parrot
I've spent 1 year working with unreal full time, 2 years before that dabbling, but I have a college education and 5 years work experience as a software engineer
plucky hatch
Wow
daring parrot
so I was able to zoom through the coding parts but still get hung up on the art related disciplines
plucky hatch
That's much
I'm gonna watch YouTube now and start off tomorrow because I'm at the birthday party of my grandpa! Thank you for the answers really nice of u!
daring parrot
👍
fickle hatch
I was doing this sorta stuff for 10+ years
daring parrot
@fickle hatch simulation or game dev?
fickle hatch
Both actually
daring parrot
ah cool
fickle hatch
Used to be really into game dev, physics, systems and general simulation since the start
When I was little I made a VM for my own shitty scripting language
And made games with it
daring parrot
oh yeah and I forgot to count the years doodling with my own game engine development 🤣
flat gazelle
@plucky hatch I'd look into modding if I were you. Learning to make a game from scratch does as stated above take a lot of time and can be discouraging. Starting from an existing game, and reskinning it and tweaking a few gameplay systems allows you to get something fun up and running much faster. You are young, and I think some of the advice you got was aimed at making a career out of it.
If I was your age, I'd look at some tutorials about modding a game you already like to get an idea of how games work. It will also help guide your decisions of what to learn next.
plucky hatch
So u mean like making a mod for Garry's mod?
flat gazelle
Yes
Or Dreams
Or something like that. start somewhere and then move to more advanced stuff when you hit the limitations
plucky hatch
Okay then I will start there with my fnaf game mode and then later on make some more mods and start with unreal engine
flat gazelle
Good luck!
plucky hatch
Thank you!
tawdry basalt
i'm here to make my own kart racing fangame?
harsh brook
lots of people start in modding games too both me and my buddy got our starts that way 😄
distant rune
Ya goodstar and me are from modding community too
I just discovered this server and was looking for someone that would be open to collaborate on a project that we have at heart but dont know how to use Unreal Engine.
I'm from the Disney Modding Community I had in head to start a new project because the modding was too difficult and it was too much complicate to mod.
I'm looking for people that know how to use Unreal Engine and would like to be part of the remastering of Cars: The Video Game. We already have some illustrations and drafts to preview how it would looks like.
west sonnet
lilac walrus
Also, as I would be super careful, Disney is extremely unlikely to let such a project slide, and will almost certainly get legal
kind crater
yep, you better ask them for permission
iron cave
Yeah I agree, check Disney's term of service/contact them about making a "Fan" based project. I don't know how they are compared to the other companies, since I know Nintendo is strict about fan based projects and tend to shut them down in a weeks notice.
distant rune
@iron cave Thats exactly whar I said to my community. I remember Nintendo aplying their copyrights for M64 remake
iron cave
They also shut down a lot of the Fan-based pokemon go projects. They tend to slap the hammer then give a warning compared to Bethesda as a example.
Since I remember Bethesda asking the devs behind the Wasteland mod for Fallout 4 to stop, or change due to the sound files they were using.
distant rune
Do you know where to contact and how without being ignored?
lilac walrus
you'll have to dig for a contact address, but in all honesty I wouldn't expect a positive response, if you get one at all
distant rune
Im sure theyre gonna say no
iron cave
But it never hurts to ask.
Sometimes some get lucky and get a positive response, some do not. It all matters on the project and what you want to do with it, and contacting them at the right time.
lilac walrus
aye, you can always ask, but I'm fairly sure the answer will be no tbh
distant rune
Thanks for the help All
iron cave
No problemo, and good luck!
barren crow
Anybody got any projects for me?
mystic hull
hardy tapir
Alright. There's this education that seems interesting. To apply you need to send off some work you have done. I.E a game. I have 5 days to submit a demo of this game. What the heck do I do x)
lilac walrus
Get working
vivid pivot
^ This.
tardy yarrow
Anyone know a good place for advice and feedback on an idea I have to make a game?
lilac walrus
But generally speaking ideas in themselves have little value
It's all in the execution
iron cave
Yup.
I think there was a video about this as well that sort of spoke about the whole "I have a idea, the company can use me." sorta thing heh.
fickle hatch
Expressing a key idea at a key time can get you some attention
gentle harbor
mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj mnhj.
flat gazelle
^ This! I agree
plucky hatch
I believe Fortnite needs more camels
kind crater
I believe Fortnite needs more dances
iron cave
Last time I remember you don't get hired for a idea, even if it's a key idea. Unless I missed a huge point somewhere in all the video documentaries and interviews. Usually you can "Share" your idea once you are actually in the studio and have made some progress in the company. I am a Ideas guy too but I know I need to work in there first before I even touch that subject and got to be able to show the ideas work, not be all talk. I could be wrong, but only way I can think of it working would be making the stuff that seem good and see if it works. Not every idea tends to work or be liked, and if you come with a mindset that "Your ideas are great" you'll be disappointed.
next crystal
Hi im new here , and want to ask how the interviews with AAA studio as level deeigner ?
Maybe some suggestion or experience could help . Im very nervous
iron cave
Depends, if you got a portfolio and already have applied, there tends to be variations of interviews. Or stages, usually the first stage depending on company is a Video Interview, which is just you speaking out answers on a screen and then they'll let you know if you pass for the real interview days later. But if you lucky and get a real interview, your best bet is to have a decent portfolio with you best work. Since Level design usually entails visuals.
next crystal
so i don't need to be nervous about the interview right.
but what thing are mostly questioned in the interviews?
mystic hull
I would argue that if you've gotten to the interview part
you should be rather confident
next crystal
i jst never been an interview so im bit nervous
mystic hull
I know that feeling all too well 😂
next crystal
xD but will i be asked abt some fundamental things?
sry im overthinking but i don't want to mess up this opportunity hahhaha
mystic hull
you sure will
next crystal
like , explain what is heightmap , why do we need normals, albedo's or terrain layers, post processing and volumetric etc
ashen lynx
That is unrelated to level design @next crystal
next crystal
@ashen lynx oh yea , its more like 3d texturing
mystic hull
but isnt that an artist's job? o.o
next crystal
@ashen lynx what kind question that more related to level design stuff?
all i know i only need a reference and make things like the ref
ashen lynx
Questions will likely be more of personal and organizational nature. It is hard to ask a level-design related question, that can be answered verbally, within ample time and have any effect on interview outcome.
Some of the questions might be directly related to pieces presented in your portfolio/ application.
next crystal
one of my colleague told me that i need to be honest 😂 the only thing that he said
oh yea that make sense
hope everything goes well.
and btw is there any possibilities that a level designer move to another department for example i will be working on textures and materials etc?
ashen lynx
Situational and varies from company to company, but generally yes.
next crystal
so level designer will be related to artist job i guess, should i prepare learn how to modelling stuff , and texturing ? in the job description i do need a little understanding abt programming , and i can't relate the level design with programming itself in AAA . how it works?
sry asking a lot of question , jst want to let out my curiosity
ashen lynx
should i prepare learn how to modelling stuff , and texturing ? No. You do have to understand the process enough to be able to communicate with art and that is it. Your programming and general technical knowledge is needed as applied to performing and automating your job tasks . That commonly involves basic scripting skills and being able to work with version control systems without being hand-held.
iron cave
Plus, if they need too they can also give you some on-site training if you need to do something else.
So I wouldn't worry about it.
sudden island
@next crystal You need good documentation skills, ability to get something playable quickly in rough form, also understand level design concepts such as flow, focus, pacing, whats a denial space and how that works with a weenie etc.
next crystal
weenie? denial space? what is that?
sudden island
thats some of what you need in level design
if someone told you we need a combat arena, youd need to know what that means usually. and how your definition ties in with the game's specific needs because most games have arenas but the specifications of how the arenas are built depend from game to game of course
next crystal
its definition for denial space or weenie?
karmic kayak
I think its not very likely you will move to another department.
at small studios that might be an option but at bigger ones not so much
next crystal
ohh i see
btw can you help me with denial space or weenie?
ive been lookin at google but found nothing
elder mist
@next crystal no wonder, cause no one uses these terms...
here's one mention of DS https://80.lv/articles/how-to-build-good-levels-for-games/
and weenie is slang for weak person, no one talks like that, don't do that either
next crystal
Ohh okay will read it first
elder mist
@next crystal also, search for "gamasutra level design" in google, it will give you many good articles
next crystal
Ohh i read some and watch gdc abt level design too
I really like gdc stuff , it feels personal and job are mixed in their talk
Like how they mention the preference abt tools n stuff
elder mist
the tools is...i don't know, every game may have own pipeline and you can't use exactly same tools for each one (except maybe for AAA, where changes are really slow)
next crystal
I can imagine if we had our engine and can ask some additional tools , they can make it right away
Coz the engine programmer itself at the company , right ?
Its in the naughty dogs presentation abt level design
elder mist
ahahah, ssure...that's why Epic games making new features "right away" and not developing them by months or years
next crystal
But i bet epic is the closest to the other AAA engine
elder mist
we still have no GI in ue4...LPV is not even "supported" feature
next crystal
I do know the company that i applied for not using unreal but they prefer some guys that have experience using unreal before
What is LPV ?
GI = global illumination?
elder mist
Light Propagation Volumes, yes, GI is Global illumination
UE4 has photorealistic look out of the box, that;s why many prefer it over unity, and has open source, that's why many prefer it over CryEngine
next crystal
I think i need learn some terms
Well before this i use unity for 7 years, but need switch to unreal for dream job xD
But its definitely harder than unity
But more complex and better for skilled artist / level designer
elder mist
well, if you used unity as LD then there won't be much difference
next crystal
Mostly i found the texture are the big difference till now
And the terrain works , or landscapes
elder mist
main ue4 features in level design are...Level Streaming/Composition, Landscapes/Foliage tools, Lighmass...everything else is probably the same as for any other engine
materials are the same...not exactly, but follow the same logic as any other shader in most other engines
main difference is Deferred renderer vs Forward renderer
ue4 has both of them and may use them mixed, but Deferred is main and default one for Desktop
next crystal
Can you explain abit what the difference is?
elder mist
@next crystal https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/forward-rendering-vs-deferred-rendering--gamedev-12342
next crystal
Cool article ! It should be set up in early development right?
Why dont ppl jst use both always?
sudden island
@elder mist we have gi in multiple forms
lightmass
post process gi
ray traced gi
lpv was abandoned because the studio behind lpv was shut down (lionhead)
at least i htink thats how it goes
but besides lpv is a fiarly old technique and not that great
elder mist
@sudden island LM is baked, SS GI is not a GI, and RT GI is for...2% of the players? can it even be used for GI w/o rendering a full frame?
sudden island
Global illumination can be baked or real time
runic shuttle
Dynamic GI makes characters look weirdly lit from what ive noticed. Is there a setting for this I’m missing?
elder mist
@sudden island You cant use LM with procedural or modular levels, even if you have relatively stable but not prebuilt level structure you won't be able to use it, that's main issue of it for me
next crystal
i read abit about LM (since i come from unity and there is no lightmass) it is type of rendering that make shadow more thicker and remove diffuse shadow?
correct me if im wrong
hollow geyser
I don't think they're gonna ask you much about how to do textures or art as a level designer...like a level designer is mostly going to work on the levels in a white box phase, and it'll be an environment artist that would make the level look pretty
unless it's a smaller company where you're gonna do both
I think you should mostly be ready for critiques of your portfolio pieces, like they're going to ask you why you made specific level design decisions in the levels you're showing in your portfolio
and you should be able to explain your design process and be able to postmortem your levels
sudden island
yeah
most likely you will be asked to do an onsite/offsite design test
although it does depend on the company
hollow geyser
yeah so a lot of the bigger places will send you a test like "design a level for our game" and then the interview will be mostly just going over that
because like lots of things, level design is just a lot of iteration
you have to be able to receive constructive criticism
and sometimes unconstructive or vague criticism, too, haha
sudden island
yeah
granted the naughty dog test i remember is like only allowing you 3 hours or something
to build out a graybox and also put together a series of details explaining decisions made/how the level played
hollow geyser
that makes sense
sudden island
it gave you a level brief which was pretty similar to what you'd probably be given there
just going over what the narrative beat was, basic setting an approach
where it has to go location and narrative wise
hollow geyser
that was on-site?
sudden island
offsite
like its not an actual one i guess
more like just a kinda sample naughty dog styled level
hollow geyser
ah and they just tell you to make it in whichever editor you want to?
sudden island
yeah whichever 3d package you are most comfortable in
they werent looking for a whole level though, it was a setup they wanted
like theres 12-13 points/things to do
hollow geyser
ah
next crystal
Ahh i see now i have a big picture of it
Im going to ubisoft , any experience with it?
I applied as junior level designer
And i should study of their games
sudden island
What does your portfolio look like
hollow geyser
just pictures of landscapes isn't really a level design portfolio
you should ideally show like a video of you playing through the level, a top down view of the layout, describe design decisions you made, if you worked with others what you specifically did, etc.
next crystal
Yea i made some video too
But i dont have it on my phone xD
Ohh i do need a layout of it? Make sense
Thank you for the suggest ! Will working on it
tidal moth
yea basically what @hollow geyser said. gameplay, pacing etc. need to be shown at least at a fundamental level
indigo token
When you guys get paid from studios - or even internships - do you guys get pay stubs?
My internship has just been mailing me checks, and we're essentially being a bit underpaid
lilac walrus
'stubs'?
odd mulch
so you're saying they owe you money?
if the contract says they pay you X € per month and you get less than that before taxes and such it's a breach of contract
I'd start looking for another job 😄
neat jackal
Libari, what do you define as underpaid in this case? Is it less than the contract says you should make, or less than the minimum wage? Because in a lot of places internships fall outside of minimum wage (hence why unpaid internships are a thing), so that's not being underpaid. If you get less than the contract states though, that's very illegal. Also, keep in mind taxes and the like that get deducted from the pay before you get it.
daring parrot
@indigo token I've typically only gotten stubs when I had direct deposit set up
but then I haven't had a lot of jobs where I didn't have that set up 🤔
fickle hatch
@lilac walrus stubs or invoices
At my previous workplace, I was supposed to get a copy of an invoice for my payment, but they were shady and paid under the table instead
😄
robust juniper
Is there any way of getting work from home?
digital gate
I worked from home for a bit, yeah, but it isn't easy to track down work
The most likely scenario for you WFH is pulling gigs from #looking-for-talent or the forums; if you do that for a while you might be able to apply to work for a studio that has a remote spot (pretty rare, IME). You gotta find stuff worth your time where nobody else beat you to it or beats your rate. What discipline are you?
robust juniper
@digital gate I've been unemployed for 2 years but I graduated In Physics
hollow geyser
Getting work from home is rough unless you have a track record or history to point to
The I know who get work from home contracting, including myself, have a proven track record in industry working in the office
And then off of that people will trust that you will actually be worth it to pay your rate, and that you will actually get the job done
People are hesitant to hire remote because you can’t “see” them working
So you have to have a history to point to
Getting the first contract job is the hardest
spice dagger
Start small. Build up your portfolio and reputation.
I find working from home on purely remote contracts to be very rewarding and flexible.
As long as you deliver and have a solid payment plan and expectations are on the same page.
But absolutely start small. Dont go applying for big studios as a remote contractor if you have no prior history in such work.
deft robin
Is there any obtainable degree specifically in unreal engine?
west sonnet
No
deft robin
Can a degree be obtained in game development using unreal engine?
west sonnet
Software and platforms come and go. Such degrees would be laughably short lived
deft robin
So if I do not go in game development,will my knowledge on unreal engine be a valuable asset in my portfolio?
west sonnet
Degrees in game development are generally sketchy. Studios want to see your portfolio, not a piece of paper
deft robin
I mean if I do not persue game development can I have a proof of any kind that I did it.
In India during college admissions the amount of degrees matter no matter if they aren't of any use in that feild
west sonnet
Have a portfolio. That’s all you need. A degree is good for immigration and that’s about it for game development
brittle lava
That's right. My mom spoke to me about having a portfolio before starting my LLC. I plan to make a simple Asteroids clone with one of my friends from college.
and if your prototype gains positive reactions from your friends and the public, make 3 or 4 more game prototypes so that your portfolio is strong enough to acquire a job or starting a company
hollow geyser
@deft robin you typically need some kind of degree related to your discipline, but it doesn't have to be "game" focused...however you need something to demonstrate your ability in games
depends on your discipline to some extent, also, for like programming you most likely need a computer science (or related) degree, doesn't have to be games-focused
but you need some number of game projects you did programming on to show your ability and interest in games specifcally
for programming it doesn't necessarily have to be a "fun" project, for example some people will just make a rendering demo
tidal moth
yeah don't bother with degrees in game design. software development or comp sci is going to help you out a lot more than a game design degree
iron cave
Don't do degrees in games. Safe yourself the money and the head ache and the utter sheer disappointment.
The only useful thing for a "Games" degree is simply to allow you to work in other countries, otherwise, it's a degree that is pretty much useless for 90% of the job industry.
Do something else that actually offers work, Technology, computer science, hell, do business. But please, just don't fall for the trap like me and many others, it's a trap that will always be clasped onto your CV for ever.
kindred mason
😃 I can't agree with any of you that are anti-GameDev degrees
Since it actually worked out pretty well for me
A degree is a degree. A piece of paper. A nice looking piece of course.
Nice for bloating resume/portfolio/etc
The degree itself isn't going to do shit
It's what you do during that time...that's the kicker
If you want to focus on GameDev and that's it. Depending on what you want to do in game development, then it would most likely behoove you to go for a game dev degree or at the very least minor if possible.
There are multiple false rumors from people who have never been through a game dev degree program.
I'm not going to hype one way or another honestly. There are multiple ways into game dev (with or without any degree)
But I'll say, if you know that's what you really a passionate about and want to do for the rest of your life and you have some choice in the school/degree with a game dev degree, I would at the very least highly suggest you do some research on your own
Look at the top 10-20 GameDev schools on Princeton list. Figure out what you honestly what to do in Game Development first though. Look at their curriculum, look at reviews. Talk to former students (google/linkedin for the win)
But, regardless of all that. Doesn't really matter what you do, if you decide to get a degree (in whatever), you need to make sure that you make the most out of your time. A see a lot of people who never bothered with internships, working freelance, doing solo project, group projects outside of class and basically didn't amount to much in game development.
This happens all the time. People with degrees working at jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees. People with degrees, working at McDonald's or Pizza Hut because they can't find a job because they don't have a portfolio or enough experience to land one.
digital gate
In case anybody is wondering if you can get good dev jobs without a degree these days, yes. It's happened recently, pretty sure more than once, with the example Ill give of the Islands of Nyne guy who was hired somewhere.
Forget his discord tag
tidal moth
I did a master's degree in game design and I cannot recommend it
everything that made me get a job in the industry was me working my portfolio on the side
very few courses actually matter when it comes to game design because very few people have a grasp of design formalization
mystic hull
I was actually wondering if there are any good books for the solo indie game dev, subject being game design 🤔
tidal moth
what kind of game design specifically
for systems design I would recommend looking at books for system architecture
for level design there are some sporadic resources spread across many different sites, but no real formalization beyond that
mystic hull
Game design, i.e. game design xD
I identify as a software engineer helicopter already so that part's covered 🤷
But like, how to make the game engaging
tidal moth
game design is an umbrella term
mystic hull
how to define how the systems will work, etc etc
tidal moth
it exists as an abstract superclass, if you catch my drift
mystic hull
you know, the kind of stuff you write in the GDD
yeah I getcha
the kind of stuff that's covered in Mark Brown's GMTK
He's amazing but his resources are far too spaced out / little to be an efficient learning source
tidal moth
yeah that's what I wanted to point out
generally the issue is that design is tacit knowledge
mystic hull
yeah thats the way ive always felt about it
was hoping someone somewhere would've compiled things in a book or two
tidal moth
it is possible to formalize, and I've spent a good part of the last 2 years attempting to do something of a resource book for level design myself
but it's not easy because the fields that are required for doing so have only just begun existing
game design in itself is too broad to define by any stretch
once you scope it down to whatever concrete prototype you want to make, more options become available, and you can establish a workflow etc.
mystic hull
Where would I start if I was to come up with my own game?
Like, I have all the parts that can be abstracted written down
including some unique systems, how the overall world will work etc
but I'm rather stuck on the smaller details
tidal moth
put what you want to do in the game into two max three sentences
take the verbs from those sentences and make them into the mechanics of the game
mystic hull
yep, it's covered in ~1.5 sentences
about 10-15 words total
then I split it into sub-sections about each feature
but ive been there for quite a while 😄
mystic hull
basically, from a programmer's prespective I know how I'm going to make these things work
but I don't know how to "fine tune" them, if that sentence works
i.e., how do I actually make them engaging
tidal moth
you need to iterate
mystic hull
as an example: RPGs, tons of them out there, all follow the same formula, but some give different feels
if you know what I mean
tidal moth
nobody makes the perfect game on the first try
mystic hull
So essentially, make it work, then play it until it doesn't, re-make it work?
tidal moth
you gonna make a wonky ass prototype to start out with, with real basic elements
mystic hull
Also since we're at it, how the heck do I communicate my art preference as a programmer? 😂
tidal moth
then once you have that base, you can play around with it and understand where you need the improvements
mystic hull
I've hit a dead-end with my artists a while back, he just wont get what I want. Or rather probably I'm unable to communicate it
tidal moth
references are your strongest bet on the art side
showing artist an image of what you are looking for will yield good results usually
mystic hull
thats what I thought 🤷
tidal moth
or multiple images, if one isn't enough
generally I would avoid formal text as much as possible in any document
mystic hull
There are references to the general technical style, but not to the actual style (feel?) of the graphics
tidal moth
the biggest issue with stuff like a GDD is that nobody is ever going to read through it
west sonnet
Absolutely give them as many reference images as possible. With notes attached of course
mystic hull
i.e. we've reached a point where we knew how he's going to draw the art, but not how to make it feel if that makes any sense
I find it soooo extremely hard to give him the picture in my mind, right
west sonnet
That’s called a mood board
mystic hull
Hmmm haven't tried that 🤔
tidal moth
what kind of artist is he
and perhaps of relevance as well, has he worked professionally with his art before
mystic hull
ehh yeah, not on games though
and not a gamer either, makes things very hard I should say 😄
he's the only artist I have access to right now though
since we're at it too;
tidal moth
ask him for his work process and what he needs
it doesn't matter that much that it isn't games
mystic hull
I have a couple if genuine ideas for my game, would coming up with a technical prototype (i.e. possibly just some open-source sprites, with working code)
tidal moth
I assume here from what you said that he is a concept artist
mystic hull
Would the possibility of finding funding be there, or will it just get stolen? 🤔
daring parrot
^
mystic hull
thought so 😂
daring parrot
nobody cares about your idea and it already exists in 5 other indie games
them's the rules
but you do it anyways
mystic hull
nah im pretty sure it hasn't been done before though 🤔
tidal moth
but yeah your prototype is your alpha and omega
west sonnet
#1 rule of game development 😜
mystic hull
A man can dream 😂
daring parrot
that's what I thought about tavern simulator, but a VERY similar project popped up after searching for a bit 😛
tidal moth
make it as technically sound as you can
once it's working, you can start worrying about how to implement good art etc.
tidal moth
there is a talk
mystic hull
Solid advice > fake hope
mystic hull
sure, and thanks!
tidal moth
mystic hull
oh ive seen that one 😛
west sonnet
Ooh a classic
mystic hull
I honestly feel im just too anxious about it failing (chances are it will)
tidal moth
you WILL fail
mystic hull
but yeah, might aswell just get on it 😄
tidal moth
but the point is to fail
making a game is a bit like playing dark souls for the first time
mystic hull
yeah I can imagine
I do work as a game dev, but I dont have to deal with any of the art and design responsibility
I just make things work 🤷
west sonnet
You need a producer
tidal moth
anyway I think watching that video will be a sobering experience for you
mystic hull
Will rewatch it 👌
hollow geyser
@kindred mason there are some degree programs that are really good and useful, but the problem is it’s hard to know from the outside whether it’s good or bad
Even that Princeton Review List is pretty flawed how they compile it
And yeah ultimately even if you have a degree from the #1 school on that list by no means does that guarantee you an industry job
In some ways it means the people might hold you to a higher standard than others without a game degree
I’m talking more about on the programming side of things, at least
Like if someone comes from say DigiPen and I’m interviewing them, I’m gonna expect more out of them than someone with a normal CS degree
Because they had more opportunities to learn and leverage game specific knowledge
What’s most important is your fundamentals, how much initiative do you have and how quickly can you learn
Like if a candidate took a game engine programming class, I expect more from them than someone that maybe just took operating systems
Because for entry level the candidates always will have holes in their knowledge. I want to probe past the knowledge from their classes to get an understanding of how quickly they’d be able to learn
plucky hatch
not exactly "career," but how would you find people that might want to work with you on a game?
harsh brook
networking
plucky hatch
and, where should you start with respect to learning? online youtube tutorial? A course? Book?
harsh brook
youtube
take courses for specific things you want to master
read before bed every night its the best way to fall asleep
hollow geyser
@plucky hatch depends how you learn. Different people find things more effective. For me, I hate learning from videos and avoid them as much as possible
I just find videos very inefficient compared to reading or learning myself
iron cave
Depending on country, a Gaming degree is usually useless. At least that's in my case. While the degree is good and shows I passed my University course, job wise it's almost useless for 90% of the job industry. A retail store will not hire you simply cause you have a degree in Games, they'd prefer that you have something more related to it.
A baker won't hire you, unless you have skill in cooking, so food technology, food hygiene. Computer science, business. Pretty much anything else works apart from a Gaming Degree, and here's another thing what I learned. Everything they teach you, can be done at home. Every little bit of it, you spend 40K on a degree, when you could've learned it all at home with less of a headache.
I don't disagree that if you want to do it, then go do it. But for a safe bet, try and look elsewhere and do something else WHILE also doing a project or something with the gaming world on the side.
Also @plucky hatch Go check out the collab channels on various game dev discords. They tend to look for people.
loud geyser
Hey peeps. I'm looking for an email address for North America Unreal Evangelist. Can anybody help? I found Christian Allen, but not sure if his email (christian.allen@serellan.com) is still active. I'm wondering if he maybe has an '@epicgames.com' email.
patent mountain
you could look him up on linkedin
narrow vigil
I'm sure that someone has asked this, but what does a good junior position programmer portfolio look like? I know people have said make small stuff, and that is good, but I was wondering if there is somewhere I could see an actual portfolio for a programmer? Does anyone have an old portfolio that they would be willing to share?
hollow geyser
@narrow vigil here’s one for someone who got a job at AAA out of university: http://www.zachmetcalfgames.com
Main thing about programming is you want to have something that shows off your technical skill
So like if you’re doing a game in Unreal try use Blueprints sparingly and implement more stuff in C++ for example
brittle lava
Hi, I am wondering about the amount of game prototypes that I need to make before starting a business. My college friend and I have little to no game development experience. How many game prototypes that I need to create for our portfolio?
tidal moth
your question doesn't really make sense
like what is the point of your business? that you want clients and attract them through your portfolio?
brittle lava
Yes, that is correct.