There are companies that are more into C# .NET, SQL
Others are more Html5, CSS3, javascript and PHP. And many jobs for angular and others for react
#career-chat
plucky hatch
Many jobs ask for python, but not necessarily dedicated to it
C++ is still popular too
Lot of variety
fathom oasis
I think thats the big thing for me, web stuff isn't interesting to me. I learned JS over last summer and built a procedural music system, simple 2d game, and a not so great website but it wasn't as fun as openFrameworks or UE4
plucky hatch
nice
If you ask me, it's just all more of the same
Visual Studio C# with WPF + SQL is just the same thing as HTML/CSS with Javascript, PHP, AJAX
And ReactJS + Redux same thing again, just a different tech
I frankly don't know why they are doing 10,000 ways for doing the same shit
Im glad UE4 has C++ and Unity has C# and that's pretty much it.
Maybe for multiplayer to need to get into the other languages and tech but still
fathom oasis
low level implementation i think. Lots of ways to access the same features underlying the higher level languages. Web assembly may standardize it a bit more before it diverges again into flavors of the same stuff
plucky hatch
I'll consider myself lucky that I actually enjoy working on apps and websites π
So i can make indie games on the side
or else
@fathom oasis
By the way, if you are a recruiter, you should get in touch with video games industry recruiters
They are the ones doing the hiring
...
So if you want a better job...
pull strings
fathom oasis
Oh i am lol i get phone calls every time theres a position i might be qualified for in my area
My attempt at moving jobs is only a month old and i have a few projects about to come out that i can finally share and point at
plucky hatch
π
shadow kelp
man the timeout on unrealbot for posting talent requests is mad short....gives me anxiety π
spice dagger
Copy/Paste your answers
shadow kelp
a sane timeout would be easier π
spice dagger
I didnt code it π
We did do a survey earlier to ask how to improve it.
Check #unreal-news if you want to participate in the survey.
iron cave
@plucky hatch She got a job with just a Soundcloud as her sound protfolio? Damn, congrats to her. She must be pretty darn good then.
plucky hatch
She was working as an indie music composer before that for games.
Not just her SoundCloud page.
iron cave
Hmm, well that's given me a little more of a hopes up then.
If she composed music for indie games and such and managed to land herself a job. Then damn, it's good to know it's possible.
honest cipher
on the musician thing...
i actually did professional music school as a teenager
and did piano concerts
iron cave
Think those who did music as a study are better off. I only got into it during my course, but that's cause we all were needing to explore what we can do and learn everything there is to know about developing said game. So I only had 2 years of study experience trying to do music for games, so this is my fourth year trying to do music.
honest cipher
i still know some of the guys from music school, who completed
they have essentially a degree in music but its not very useful
plucky hatch
kind of sad π¦
honest cipher
the one i know only gets money from music by playing his violin as a street performer
btw, he gets huge cash
plucky hatch
great for him! well deserved
iron cave
Aye, well done to him.
But yeah it sucks, there are some courses that literally have no help what-so-ever to find work. You do get comments too where people say you wasted your time, or "What a dumb way to finish school" for a course and study you really want to take.
safe pasture
Hey the way I see it is if you do what you love then who cares what the people trying to bring you down say. Right?
plucky hatch
If you don't have a wife and children, follow your passion.
If you have a family, might be best to become a provider.
If your studio shuts down and it's the only one around, not sure the bank nearby needs a VFX guy
But if you are a programmer...
π
People also don't think too far sometimes.
What happens if you lose your job? And then it takes time to get a new one?
What if it takes years?
What if that becomes ''a thing''?
You might need 2 careers.
With programming, it's easy to transfer to a different domain.
And you dont have to be a programmer in the video games industry. You could be a technical artist or a technical level designer.
Tool programmer. Web dev. UI programmer
Etc.
mystic hull
Hmm, I was always under the impression that it's actually harder to get into the games industry a a programmer π€·π»
Then again, I'm probably just doing things wrong π
plucky hatch
That's why Im saying you dont have to become a game programmer
There are other jobs related to coding
mystic hull
True, then again my main thing is networking, server etc
plucky hatch
Programming is becoming a new base skill to have
Different stories for everyone
Some people had an excellent experience in the industry
Others went through horror stories
Others had a career for several years, then suddenly couldnt find jobs anymore
Or they stopped for a few years, took care of their family, tried to get back and couldnt
Etc.
There are all kind of stories
mystic hull
Such is life π€·π»
plucky hatch
yep
Most of the people I know in the industry are now working in different studios or they left the industry
Some of them changed studio like 4 times lmao...
mystic hull
Yeah it's rather volatile isn't it
plucky hatch
A friend moves to a different studio and others follow
remote saffron
π€
plucky hatch
@iron cave different courses are aimed at different stuff for making money maybe take a business course
iron cave
@plucky hatch A business course will probably ruin my brain, I don't think I have that kind of power to go through it, plus I don't think I'd like to add another Β£5-6K of debt into my already big debt collector.
mystic hull
I like your avi π @wraith mortar
wraith mortar
Hmm can't even make a linkedin account, confirmation email never comes
I will never understand people who offer only linkedin for their job postings since its gated behind a signup
Well, thats one person who lost a potential job
(seriously people, if someone can't click your link and know if you fit in minimal time then you're doing it wrong)
iron cave
Industry? Uh.. I put myself for freelancer at the moment cause, well. Not any industry yet.
wraith mortar
Oh jesus, linkedin doesn't even have a portfolio section, no ones going to hire you if they can't see some of your work, you could have worked for the biggest devs in the business for the longest time and still be rubbish (exceedingly common)
Doesn't hurt to have a linkedin but definitely can't be the first thing you show and certainly not the only thing
lilac walrus
yup
wraith mortar
I'm pretty sure anyone using it in indie game dev is unemployable
lilac walrus
it's the domain of clueless recruiters, and little more
wraith mortar
Indeed
iron cave
Wish I'd known that now. Since I've been literally spammed to death by teacher's, students and old co-workers to go and use it.
heady helm
Hello.
strange jolt
is there a programmer burn out channel?
west sonnet
Iβm a freelancing 3D artist and an occasional technical artist. In between contracts at the moment.
outer cipher
yea linkedin is pretty useless for devs, more for all the business bs
flat gazelle
LinkedIn a pretty convenient cv. It autofills most recruitment portals.
It's standardized so you know where to look for info instead of hunting through someone's homebrewed pdf
indigo hamlet
my linkedin showed my resume poppped up in Epic Games search
so either an random emploree from Epic was searching or an actual HR person from Epic was searching
lilac walrus
popping up in a search doesn't really mean anything though
search for something in Google and you get a whole page of results
how many of them do you usually look at, and how many of them are irrelevant?
(granted some of that is down to your ability to search, hehe)
indigo hamlet
my point was Epic was looking on linkedin
indigo hamlet
didnt i already say that
I think that's probably what Epic would use it for, looking for some programmer, not a level artist
if they even use it
i mean
lilac walrus
Epic likely gets more than enough direct applications to not have to worry about looking for people
even then
indigo hamlet
you would think that but they have lots of open positions
lilac walrus
Epic is a big company, they will always have lots of open positions
and some take time to fill
they almost certainly get a ton of terrible CVs, lol
IIRC we get about 130 applications for some positions and in some cases don't interview even one
and we're not that well known
at Lionhead some positions got thousands of applications
ashen lynx
Jeez , the industry is crowded.
indigo hamlet
damn
most of the work i got outside of game dev, was through recruiters finding me, career builder mostly and a little on linkedin
lilac walrus
recruiters will use whatever channel is appropriate - so for non games it might make sense
but in this industry it tends to be the clueless variety that look on LinkedIn
the majority of games folk don't keep their LinkedIn profiles vaguely up to date
and many just get fed up with the constant recruiter bombardment
indigo hamlet
is there a main place to post portfolios/look for game dev work?
lilac walrus
when it's obvious they couldn't even get you a job anyway
@indigo hamlet - there are a number of dedicated portals for game dev jobs
just google 'Games Industry Jobs' or similar and several will pop up
indigo hamlet
i mean if a game dev recruiter was looking for someone
lilac walrus
they're often also full of copypasta recruiters
general advice, don't bother with recruitment agencies in this industry
they will rarely get you a job
and most companies will actively ignore them
indigo hamlet
i mean a in-company recruiter
lilac walrus
in-company HR is different
but generally you're expected to apply direct
they will almost never make contact with you first
I would actually consider that a red flag tbh
even for someone with considerable experience
if you're searching like that and contact me out of the blue, I assume you have internal problems
ashen lynx
Some recruiters conduct a fairly good job at searching though. I've got contacted by one few years back. I don't have anything besides a shady site and upwork profile so was pretty surprised.
lilac walrus
then that tells me everything I need to know about the state of their respective internal game studios
indigo hamlet
maybe i should apply to amazon and google games if they are that desperate
:sad face:
lilac walrus
if an internal recruiter for a company like that is actively reaching out, it means they have a problem; it means that they've failed to attract someone with the appropriate skills through both external advertising and through their (considerable) internal networks
indigo hamlet
well i know amazon wanted to make some publishing or hiring on deal with a random amateur dev that made it to the front page of reddit with half functioning prototype
lilac walrus
it's unlikely nobody suitable applied
so it means people are actively turning the job down
or they have a high turn-over and people aren't staying in those positions
indigo hamlet
well to be honest that state of most companies in general are pretty shitty for anything below management level
but that's another topic lol
lilac walrus
the only other time you would be contacted like that is through an internal recommendation, but that internal recommendation should be mentioned in the initial contact and ideally the person making the recommendation should have talked to you first
indigo hamlet
I mean isn't silicon valley know for stealing top talent in general
nvidia stole a bunch of AMD peeps
lilac walrus
@indigo hamlet - when that happens it's usually through internal networking
lilac walrus
it's more likely someone already worked in said hiring company, and reached out to one or two people, then those people talked
the person who made the jump would have a no-compete clause, so if they did it that way they'd be liable for all kinds of problems
not that it doesn't happen
but if it happened en-mass they, and the hiring company, would be likely be liable for legal action
indigo hamlet
yeah they are illegal in california
lilac walrus
a clause like that is legal in most places π€
the non-competes that prevent you from changing jobs are the ones that are usually illegal
ashen lynx
it is legal in most places, but rarely enforceable to a meaningful extent.
indigo hamlet
its holds up in court when you are the CEO, know trade secrets, or start our own business.
iron cave
I got a bunch of job searches, a little. But it never really fazed me at all. I applied for a couple of jobs through it. Just have to hope something in Germany bites.
odd palm
Hello everyone there are people from Italy or programmers from Italy
flat gazelle
There's also non solicitation clauses stopping you from recruiting your old buddies.
For some companies
Playground games vs Codies anyone π
but yeah, Update your linkedIn. I don't want your poorly formatted CV.
Where you've implemented some weird gauge from novice to expert on your skills as if that means anything.
And use an unreadable font to go on for three pages about that one time you had to make a decision while volunteering.
lilac walrus
you mean like the weird gauge where randos say you have X skills on LinkedIn :p?
ashen lynx
Like 57/100 in High Poly Modelling in Zero G conditions.
iron cave
Thank god my CV is only a page and a half.
And plus I don't even know how you make a Industry CV, only a basic Retail CV.
Plus I think when people comment about "Amazing CV's" half the time people were forced as to lie on their CV just to end up with a place at work, some were even told they ripped them off the internet in relation to formatting and got a instant deny. So, trying to make your CV standout is difficult without being accused as a copycat.
lilac walrus
honestly, it needs to be readable, not to 'stand out'
the information on it is king
the people reading them go through tens of them an hour sometimes, so everything wants to be as easy to digest as possible
in any case, my CV for over a decade in the industry is still only two pages - it's all you need
Contact details -> Two sentence intro -> skills -> work history -> hobbies and interests
in my case "skills" is loaded into the intro and work history
remote saffron
is hobbies and interests relevant? π€
iron cave
My Work history is the only thing that's probably non-existant.
muted lagoon
Itβs better to have profile information about you in your cv before work experience
iron cave
literally got about one job on that list, and that's it. XD My work history is the smallest, shortest thing on the CV ever compared to most.
remote saffron
all I have is contact info, detailed work history and education π€
iron cave
I was going to add my voluntree work as part of the work history as I've done it for 2 years. But according to the Government, it's overall value is.... a big fat Zero.
muted lagoon
A HR sees your volunteering experience like you do need not only money in this life which is an advantage of course π
iron cave
Unfortunately, it's useless to put into the CV.
lilac walrus
Hobbies and interests can be used as an ice-breaker or talking point in something like an interview
iron cave
I've asked about it multiple times, you know what's funny? I spend 2 years in a Retail Environment, sure it was a charity, but you still sell and handle customers, bank, accounts and machines like any other retail store. I went from doing basic volunteering work to actually running the store on specific days to work up my Supervisor/management roles. And that's under a short span of 2 years.
I've been told it's it's useless because it's a "Charity".
So all the skills I've learned, don't add up. Which makes me question: If you expect to gain skills but can't work at a shop, how else can you get them? Through volunteer work, but if volunteering no longer is acceptable to gain skills, the fug do you do?
muted lagoon
Charity is good, why not? It means you have or probably will have the leadership skills
iron cave
Yes, that's what WE see, but they don't accept it.
I slammed a desk full of certificates and qualifications I earned by working my rear off just to get a path into the Retail market, that's from learning how to Train people, to managing a shop on a short term and more. I slammed it to the Government's Job Center and financials and such. They all said "LOL, This shit's useless, good job wasting 2 years m8."
Being talked down too and made fun of is one thing, but being told that volunteering or trying to do free work no longer is acceptable to fill your CV as a worker and get a job, it's heart breaking.
lilac walrus
lol, Job Centers in the UK, complete waste of time
lilac walrus
you can not bother, and not get the peanuts every week
iron cave
That's the problem.
lilac walrus
you're legit better off asking neighbours if they need their lawns mowing
iron cave
There's a lot of possibilities, but again. Majority of the options people might bring out are just dreams that don't exist.
I wanted to wash cars as a spare time to make money. No one wants that even if you are a good neighbour, can't walk dogs any more as our town has some new law in place where you must be registered to make sure dogs are treated fairly. Baby sitting is nearby impossible to do, cutting the lawn? Majority of the home owners in our district don't have grass.
Some people have choices to NOT go to the Job Center, but people like ME, I have no option. I can either not go to the job center and have no way to pay the bills. OR, I can go to the Job center and live off Β£100 every two weeks just to pay Β£50 to my parents every pay day.
I didn't want to go, but the situation was so bad when I finished my studies, I had literally no choice. And living off my parents completely just makes me sound super lazy.
Hence why I've been spamming job applications, hammering my music and making up all these new profiles just to be more employable, same with the volunteering, I wanted to do it not because I wanted too, but because I had too to become more employable, specifically in retail since it's a second option and I don't mind interacting and socialising with customers.
twilit egret
Hey guys, I have a kinda good problem to have.
I have just recieved 3 written offers for gameplay programmer roles but only 2 of them are really in contention.
37,000gbp in Guildford near London for an indie studio that is working on an awesome project and I had great chemistry with the team and loved the game they are working on and they have huge backing and I can see it going places. Team size is around 10. Guildford is also really expensive to live in. Company is using it's own engine. I feel like this is where my heart is as the team were great people!
and 35,000gbp in Liverpool for a AAA studio working on a HUGE high profile VR game in UE4. Company size is around 100 people but the team size is about 30 for this project and I would be one of the first members on the team. They couldnt show me the game so far or tell me what it is but dropped hints and I know what franchise it is etc and it's exiting. My head says this is the better offer but something about the indie environment and chance to be one of the original members for this game... plus the connection I felt is making me really torn on this.
Any advice from people who are more experienced in the industry? What would you do? I'm young (20y/o) without a degree and have been contracting for years which is what landed me these offers but I dont have a lot of advice in actual studios.
iron cave
Do you have to relocate to most of these?
twilit egret
yeah I live in Edinburgh and one is in Liverpool the other is near London
so the indie role is further away
iron cave
Is it affordable? Can you live off for the first month or so till you get your first pay check? I know that London is one of the most expensive places that I know and even flats aren't cheap, although I know one side of London is better then the other. If you got enough money to guarantee you to survive till your pay then great. But it's also a big risk if you are working permanently, full time.
twilit egret
Yeah the moving would be more taxing on my bank to get down there and the rent would be about 300 a month more expensive
so the indie offer has less spending power
it's a kinda heart vs mind thing at this point tho
iron cave
I think the main two points are: Which one you feel comfortable with and pays well enough and which one has a liveable area to afford. If you drive, that's another thing to look at.
twilit egret
yeah :/ fuq
iron cave
Does any of them offer relocation assistance by chance?
iron cave
The option would be to ride with someone till your first paycheck to eventually move over and live within the area, but not sure how that would go.
But sure someone here will give you better advice. But congrats on getting two interests, that's quite a good note!
twilit egret
yeah this week went a lot better than I expected, 3 interviews and 3 offers... doesnt make it easy
I was hoping the other two would give me funny looks or something to make it easy xD
iron cave
Oh snap, well congrats either way.
twilit egret
Thanks!
lilac walrus
both offers are fine
just be aware that 37k goes half as far in Guildford as it does in Liverpool
because the housing situation in Guildford is pretty fucked
it's always been expensive, but now it's all AirBnB for London visitors >.<
iron cave
AirBnB, ews.
lilac walrus
I know, right?
iron cave
The stories... I might as well live in a hotel then a AirBnB if all that I've heard about them was right.
lilac walrus
the advantage with Guildford though, is if it does go tits up, it's still pretty much GameDev central, so opportunities for more work without relocating are still likely
even without people like Lionhead and Codemasters being there, there's still loads of activity
lilac walrus
I suspect EA now have total ownership of that
though it's possible Microsoft have part ownership
twilit egret
yeah Hello games, EA, Criterion, there is tons
To be fair, manchester and Liverpool are huge too
flat gazelle
re: CV length. Keep it short and relevant to the job. Mine is 1 page (10+years) with an optional page detailing my public speaking experience as that's not relevant to all jobs.
iron cave
Damn, the list of jobs on Artstation today are disappointing. Most of them are wanting people who least worked on a AAA game, sucks a bit.
mystic hull
Hehhh I feel ya
I've still yet to find some lower scale hiring platform
I might aswell just make a platform for indies and hope it goes viral during my lifetime π
Or have it only contain my own portfolio only for the laughs
π€·π»
"Indies looking for devs? Yeah this is the only one you can hire"
iron cave
It's a shame there is a lot less Junior positions, funnily enough, I've seen some Junior positions where they wanted people who already worked on a AAA game. I am like "Wellp... I can't do that one then."
mystic hull
Solid plans ππ»
iron cave
Isn't MODDB or IndieDBB usually for Indie devs?
mystic hull
Yeah they expect a junior to have tripleA internship experience
I don't know of them quickly looks them up
iron cave
From what I know, it's not worth it. I've been told it's super difficult to get a Internship, let alone being an apprentice, unless the schools somehow managed to get a hold of one of the studios to allow students to work there.
I was close, if I didn't graduate a year early, I would've been able to sign up for one of those.
mystic hull
Thing is, personally, I dont want to work for a tripleA company
And I couldn't find a way to find indie studios looking for devs π€·π»
Gonna try my luck with the ones you posted, so thank you in advance π
iron cave
It's either those, or there's a bunch of Indie Dev discords which I think @plucky hatch Knows more off.
Or here.
I may sound like a ass, but check Steam Community, there's hundreds if not thousands of requests where people need developers to help with code or gamemodes. Which isn't much, but it's a start to make a rep and get freelanced. ARMA for instance is a big thing in relation to development, and there's a lot of great communities with talented people, veterans and normal gamers who usually are looking for programmers or modellers or anything.
twilit egret
It's odd I've went from being refused internships to being offered really good roles within 2 years of contracting unity and ue4 dev no inbetween so to mee it feels like the industry took a u turn but it's probably me
it's really wierd I find that small scale AAA is your best bet probably
rockstar etc was insultinly low pay and a really hostile interview process
lilac walrus
breaking in is the hard part
twilit egret
^^^
lilac walrus
once you have some experience, it's considerably easier to find work
twilit egret
once you've got a couple of visible projects people are clamering for you
It obviously depends on the market too
the US will be flooded atm due to activision
lilac walrus
most of their layoffs weren't development staff, and even if all 800 were in the US, it's not that many people ultimately
if it were the UK, it might be a bit different
twilit egret
true, I didnt follow it too closely
that's even worse actually
call center workers etc are the people who will find it hard to get another job π¦
west sonnet
Theyβre not limited to just the game industry though
twilit egret
true but neitehr are programmers
or artists to an extent
although they are more limited
mystic hull
Yeah it's getting visible projects that's really hard to do in my experience
it's mainly a time tradeoff, between work that actually puts food on the table, and work that you do to eventually showcase
I'm not really that experienced, by any means though
so maybe I just dont have a lot of overall experience π€·π»
Yeah, sleep π
Admittedly I should be getting more of that π€·π»
My sleeping pattern has been completely destroyed
Yeah I feel ya, I just keep messing around with ideas, writing game ideas and whatnot
Amen ^ π
I've had a lot of time on my hands past couple weeks though, no freelance work π€·π»
It's good to take a break π
iron cave
The only visible projects... If you call them that, is a Level I did, multiple screenies of my levels and models, some animations and a soundcloud full of music and sound effects. I am doing some work for one game right now since I've been paid to help with it. Hopefully it'l least be one MAJOR indie game in my back pocket for my project listing that's public and fully working and purchaseable.
Then maybe I'll finally get one guy to give me a go. I am not really proud of the current record of rejections at the moment. I know I am still young, but... Boy, I don't think you should have a big record at such a early age.
mystic hull
Hopefully it'l least be one MAJOR indie game Currently in this same phase
I've done quite a lot so far tbh, but it apparently doesn't count until it's released, so here I am π
iron cave
Thats what I thought, my father said the same. But eh, gaining over 200+ rejections in under a year doesn't feel that good.
With one one of them sending me a proper email saying I didn't get it.
iron cave
Nah I've gained pretty much over the 200 when I eventually stopped counting. This includes jobs I applied for again when I didn't get them. I got around 50 when I left University and properly hammered the job market.
Then it gradually increased to a 100 for that year, then, a little more. Eventually it got so stupidly high I stopped counting. But I know I got over 200 declines, because I've been literally going to every job site, for Retail and factory, to the Industry for Junior or internships.
And I've done pretty much everything you can think off. From doing interview training, to changing CV's, to editing CV's, to making a bunch. ( I made 5 different CV's, simply because of various fields and areas.) re-did my old portfolio, made new stuff for said portfolios, tested interviews with friends. Spoke to people. And went on, like I said before, volunteering lol.
I even did the complete "Posture in a Interview" Training.
Boy... That was painfull.
I didn't even knew back then you now get the training about how you sit and posture, while it's common knowledge, I was pushed into a training session with various training interviewers who helped you about the "Posture" and "Balance." Like some Ying-Yang crap. XD.
mystic hull
Yeah body language can say a lot about you, the way you talk, move everything really
And it's actually really important π
iron cave
Aye, my old school fecked me up though, with the whole bullying business I became a bit more shy and as you can tell. I hate literally everything I make, it's like a really big obsession of mine lol.
So probably be one of the reasons, but again, that's for interviews, not really for just applying. Out of the 200+ I think I got 3 interviews, with one giving back a decline email. So, not sure.
Don't worry, take a little pinch of depression, add a mix of embarrassment and some feeling of defeat and you're at it. XD.
muted lagoon
π
iron cave
But nah, majority of my family are ex military or have been in the army, so they usually have this strong sense of achieving things and make each other proud if you accomplished something life changing. So obtaining a job and being able to be self reliant is a good status. Least for us.
mystic hull
Oi, same story here m8
You'd be surprised π
Got bullied out of my brains all the way until the last year of highschool ;-;
I did get over it with some professional help eventually, though
I do still prefer introversion, nonetheless, but am no longer in pressure/shyness etc during extroverted times :3
Stay strong tho, it passes ππ»
iron cave
Aye, crossing my fingers, least it's better now to some extend then when I first moved to England, first school, at least most of the big students were very "Anti-German". So, that sucked. But being German and English should give me a bonus in the job market.
mystic hull
As for the code anxiety thing, use it to your advantage, it motivates you to learn better patterns, architectures & to write better code overall in the long run ;3
iron cave
I don't do code mind you, so I slam my "Emotions" into my music, at least to some of them.
mystic hull
You an artist? o-o
iron cave
Music Composer and some visual stuff. Not great with modelling so I stuck with hard surfacing, then from there went to do level/environment designs, then animations. So music and level design stuck with me the most.
mystic hull
Aha, I should stop assuming everyone here is a programmer eh π
iron cave
XD From what I've read, majority of these people are programming.
I barely met anyone who does what I do.
But it seems to be a way to go, many do programming because it seems to be a very open position for most of the world, regardless of the industry.
mystic hull
I originally did it because I love it π€·π»
Don't know if it was that needed back then, but I certainly was intruigued
fluid relic
hello!
I have a question for people working in the industry for long. if you were to hire a Game/Mechanic Designer, but all of them didn't have released works. what would you look for in a portfolio?
I may be overthinking it, but I wanted to make the smoothest portfolio I could. I've worked in a lot of mechanics for both TRPGs, game mods and UE4 games for a while now. I do have the experience, but I've done all of it as a hobby and didn't really end. right now I'm in a place where I do have skills and knowledge, I do want to work with it but I don't know where to start in order to promote myself
I've also seen a lot of hiring posts and a lot of them ask for published works instead. what can I do to compensate my lack of published works?
thank you in advance for the tips :)
hybrid phoenix
Really not #career-chat, but yes, I'm pretty sure it's dead
solid kelp
@hybrid phoenix Sorry. you're right, i missclicked chat π will delete the message!
gusty nebula
@fluid relic tbh just record some footage and edit together a video reel
fluid relic
@gusty nebula hmmm. like a quick showcase of different mechanics I've put together to work? I thought about a video at first, but people recommended me to make a demo instead. but, I feel like a playable demo would feel a bit pointless because most of the mechanics are standalone. I'd have to invest a lot of time in giving context to the demo and I don't know how to start. maybe the video reel will indeed be better for starters in my case
iron cave
I've actually got the same question, should I make up small little game projects just to fill with my music to act as the portfolio, or just dump it all in my soundcloud?
gusty nebula
i feel like a video reel is good just because u can cut together vest parts like a trailer
flat gazelle
I doubt anyone is going to download an exe and give it a whirl
fluid relic
yep. I think the video would jump straight to the point. when I try to play my prototypes and explain it to people through livestream I take forever. if I had a quick explanation while the video goes it would be faster I think
that's another thing I've thought about the demo
flat gazelle
Many companies can't even do that due to firewalls
fluid relic
I mean, people would be willing to play the demo and actually want to see how it feels inside LATER, not in a portfolio I think
true
strong shoal
What do y'all do when a client asks for something seemingly impossible that you advices against?
fluid relic
tell them why it's impossible and what else you could do instead?
strong shoal
I did. They have buyers remorse over something they bought on the market that can't be used
Like, I know what to do. I'm trying to save them time and money
It feels wrong just to placate them over their bad decision
fluid relic
I guess you make assets? then yeah, they made the bad decisions instead
if the assets do what they are meant to be, you are doing your job fine. the customer don't know how to use it properly
the best you can do is give proper advices on where to use the assets if it's not obvious enough
and maybe some extra explanations if there is something that people often confuses
that's what I'd like to see at least, as a buyer
@iron cave and about music, at least thinking about it out of industry, a soundcloud/youtube channel would be great for most works. you may try to assemble demo scenes as well to showcase how it fits in a proper game tho. so you can show sync, transition, etc. pretty much anything you want to
iron cave
Never was really clever for any of that stuff, always found it difficult trying to find a way to show it off proper. Hopefully this commission will give me a head start.
strong shoal
It helps to look at other portfolios and to put yourself in an employers shoes "what would they want to see? What would really impress someone"
fluid relic
well. from my experience, composers can show off their skills mostly in inserts/transitions to be honest. the musical style can be shown through the songs played normally, but the actual use of music usually is better felt in transitions and sync. the more it feels part of the game, the better, I think
yeah
although I'm not a producer, I do take careful attention in any soundtrack works. and what gets me most are the unexpected change of pace in climax and scene transitions
that's exactly where I feel that the composer really wanted to give a feel to the work and what they wanted for people to feel. music is all about feeling manipulation IMO
iron cave
True, will potentially dig into making a proper demo reel once I am slightly better off financially to spend time on it.
But at the moment I'll need to rely on just finishing the commission and making more music in the mean time till I land a basic job to feed me.
fluid relic
π
honestly, musical style is what counts most. so a music library would be more than enough in most cases I think
iron cave
I seem to be packing well enough. Almost reached 70 tracks, so soundclouds pretty full.
fluid relic
that's good
strong shoal
It's good to be prolific, but make sure you highlight your best stuff across a range
fluid relic
true. try to assemble the top 5-10 most unique/different tracks you have made
iron cave
Maybe, but I believe it's nice to have a transition of the bad stuff put in with the good stuff. So they can tell the progress/development and practice that went into it.
fluid relic
^
iron cave
Honestly majority of it was done from learning experience. And followed along on what's been said during my studies.
fluid relic
if I was you I'd focus on showing quality and extremes/diversity
well, if they sound nice, you did better earlier than expected? still counts :P
iron cave
I'd like to think so that some of it sounds pleasant enough. If I am not busy kicking myself in the teeth every two seconds.
I mean, majority of it isn't something that KILLS your ears.
Or is a mess where you got like 10 different guitar strings and ten different pianos play at the same time in a different pitch, boy... I tried that, I lost a brain-cell for doing that.
fluid relic
well... I'd do what I said, try to look for distinct tracks that are really different to each other. to show your array as a whole
plus quality. always show the best you've got, as Glad said
avoid using tracks that feel the same. the more unique they are, the better. because people will often need you to illustrate different moods, places, etc
iron cave
Aye, there's already enough to add a variation, including genre.
So I don't think I am lacking there.
fluid relic
perfect. it's even easier if you have different genres
iron cave
Aye, the hardest really is rock. Simply because FL studio has a very shite Slayer plugin where you need to spend a hour or two fecking about with it's settings.
fluid relic
it's harder when people use only one genre of music (look at DOOM OST). but they do show variation, even if they are all "heavy guitar metal songs" :P
iron cave
I think Doom's style is the only one I haven't done, yet.
The only stuff really is either Modern/Racing/Horror/Apocalyptic/Sci-fi/Medieval and Fantasy.
fluid relic
it's hard in my mind to come up with unique tracks from the same base
iron cave
It's the beat that always messes me up, because you have SO MANY, including those from actual DJ's and what not to avoid copying. Deadmau5s had multiple issues when he tried to make his music, where some of it sounds the same. Frank Klepacki had times where some of his music he made sounded similar to another game's soundtrack due to the beat.
So you get to a point where eventually, you've made so many, it becomes more and more difficult to make it unique.
Because you may end up making a similar track you've already done.
fluid relic
yep. by unique I don't mean compared to other people's works. I mean unique compared to your other works
iron cave
No, no. Thats what I mean, all together.
fluid relic
hmmmm
iron cave
The more you make, the slowly harder it becomes to make more in your own style.
You can only branch out so much, but eventually you may end up at a obstacle where you've made like a hundred or so soundtracks and you are stuck thinking "How am I going to write a new song without it sounding similar to what I've done now."
Actually, honestly at that point I might ask Frank myself and see how he dealt with it and how he overcame it.
fluid relic
yep. most artists end up with their signature style and don't really make new songs. they all feel the same
probably. it's better to ask the people with more experience, always
iron cave
I've watched one of Deadmau5's livestreams, and it showed that even if the sound is great, you can always tell near the middle it sounds similar to his original songs.
Which is pretty funny.
fluid relic
well, it's your signature
iron cave
It feels like the harder you try to NOT make it sound like your old or current track, the more likely it is you end up making one.
fluid relic
yep. it's part of you
iron cave
Aye.
fluid relic
we can't get rid of it. and I think it's not a bad thing
if people like it, you are fine
iron cave
It's the same with modelling I think, everyones got a style on how they model stuff. I usually am a hefty fan on Sci-fi, so I tend to make a lot of sci-fi related models.
fluid relic
what matters is if it feels good and it fits the purpose
iron cave
Yeah.
fluid relic
definitely
it's the same with pretty much everything creative
even scripting
humans are made to work with patterns. we have our own patterns for everything :P
and the patterns grouped up end up in a style
iron cave
Wait, how can you make a style in scripting? Color the text?
fluid relic
nope. basically, literally a pattern on how things are written
like, for example, I make EVERYTHING modular from scratch. because I always think about adding more variations later
and I often revise my style to be as minimal as possible
plus I often put default values to let them run without any input. if you want to customize, sure. but you don't have to go and specify everything that is needed. you can just leave it as default
this way everything feels easier to use and I can make changes/variations really easily later
iron cave
I am going to just nod my head. It's flying over my head because I never script, so I am not sure how to respond to it. XD.
But if it works, it works. As Tom Howard says.
fluid relic
weeeeell. basically we set up stuff differently
to work with it later or modify easier
the more complex is the script, the more likely to be different it will be
even tho they may do the same thing at the end
iron cave
Ah
fluid relic
that's pretty much it
that's why it's usually hard to modify other people's scripts
until you get hold of their style
basically scripts reflect the way you think, because they are all logical
so yeah. everyone has their own style on it as well :P
iron cave
Well'p. I'll keep on practicing though till I got another set of good quality songs to slap up on my webpage. Uh, Soundcloud, then hammer out some demo-reels for later.
fluid relic
π
gaunt kayak
im trying to make a game for some time now and i cant manage to finish one does any of you have any tips or know where should ask this.
ocean harbor
Make it smaller in scope
Overall, if you want to finish something βon timeβ you need to know how exactly you will implement / do it for 95% of the scope
Aka if you take a game like Asteroids, which shouldnβt be much of a challenge to make. Then add a single feature that requires a research, like for example, asteroids are procedurally generated from the music track.
gaunt kayak
ah i see i was thinking in to big of a scope and was losing the big picture of the project.
so a smaller scope is easier to manage as well.
TY im going to try to make my scope a lot smaller and work my way up from there.
timber swan
right boys, what career is closest to what i'm doing in unreal engine, placing models, making maps, coding in the blueprint ect, closest thing ive found is game and interactive media, I think 
west sonnet
Wrong channel @odd palm . Please look at #more-resources
odd palm
@west sonnet ok
jaunty lagoon
any advice for a great course to really become a master on unreal engine?
twilit egret
Updated on the AAA vs Indie discussion
I went for AAA
Not sure if I made the right choice but it was defintiely the smart one
mystic hull
Well, doing AAA then going indie still gives you a huge edge π€
digital gate
Ofc you can go tiny indie -> AAA
flat gazelle
Nearly all the indies I've worked with were ex AAA people.
digital gate
That's probably for the best
Otherwise you get people just downloading the engine with no prior
flat gazelle
Yeah. It's often surprising to Indies how small part the actual building of a game is of making a successful game
mystic hull
OH. My God
flat gazelle
So much buisness and planning that gets overlooked
flat gazelle
Good news?
mystic hull
yesssss
I do need to re-learn my cpp though
I'm a bit terrified
but hey, that's progress
flat gazelle
Good luck!
mystic hull
Thanks!!
mystic hull
Tbh, not any ones I can guarantee will work haha π
I just put myself into it, i.e., displayed my real character as opposed to having it be strict & professional looking
mentioned why I wanted to work there, and why I could be a good fit
iron cave
Hmm, seems pretty much what I am doing, although I find it difficult trying to write a cover letter that doesn't sound bad, or weird lol.
mystic hull
Yeah I feel you
It's an indie studio, relatively big one at that but still about ~12 employees
maybe thats why it worked π€·π»
I couldnt see that working on a AAA studio π
iron cave
Where abouts did you apply? On their website, or one of those typical job sites?
mystic hull
Their website
iron cave
Since I seem to be struggling to find any proper Indie developer related websites/job sites that are hiring.
mystic hull
Yeah it's the studio of a game I play myself
indigo hamlet
Has doing freelance game dev work ruined anyone's desire to work on your own projects?
I've experienced this issue in other careers
iron cave
Not really, at least not for me. But that's cause I haven't really fully got into the freelance business.
I wanted to make my own games for along time, but I needed experience and a team, so I think freelancing will open some of those doors.
flat gazelle
Only in the way of exhaustion. When I freelanced I took on too much work so I was too tired to do any of my own stuff.
iron cave
Well, I'll just have to make sure I take on one job at a time, lol.
uneven leaf
Hi, I'm a noobie game developer looking to be an Environment Artist. Do you guys know of any studios in the Chicago Land area looking for interns?
honest cipher
@twilit egret Much better to go AAA first
a lot more to learn
indies tend to not know wtf they are doing and be very light on tech. Its good to join AAA for a while to learn more advanced stuff
uneven leaf
Well, I don't have much programming experience, or how material nodes work in Maya, Substance, etc. I figured an indie company would be more open to that type of experience.
iron cave
While most will say "Go with AAA", it doesn't hurt to go with Indie too, I feel you are more likely to find work in the Indie Development part then AAA due to skill and experience.
west sonnet
AAA is easier honestly. They usually have outreach, inclusion, and disability quota they gotta meet
*easier to get a response π
iron cave
I don't know where you are from HighTide.
But I assure you, getting a response or even close to a interview from a AAA studio here, is pretty much non-existant.
So, Indie Studio live for me.
Then again people who live in villages have no choice to work for Indies anyway, AAA studios are very far apart in England.
harsh brook
i mean remote work still exists
iron cave
True, but sadly it's not really that easy anymore.
mystic hull
Unless you're a web dev π€·π»
west sonnet
Indie aren't usually willing to provide relocation assistance. Larger studios can afford to so and have more wiggle room to take a gamble in hiring you.
iron cave
Depends on the position, if it's out-of-site work I can do it, but it's getting hired that's the issue.
While I can relocate without a problem, it's just getting said into a interview and get hired. So while some of us can walk into the AAA industry willy nilly and get work, some of us rely on more smaller stuff just to get the attention of the bigger groups.
So while Indie Studios are sometimes unreliable, it's the only current option I know I can probably do instead of just freelancing.
flat gazelle
So how much time have you spent working with indies vs AAA then?
iron cave
None.
flat gazelle
So how do you know indies are easier?
mystic hull
Actually, what defines a AAA vs an indie studio? π€
just the type of games that are made?
flat gazelle
Circular and unanswerabler discussion.
Everyone has a different opinion. The old definitions are no longer valid, so it won't be answered. I recommend taking it to lounge if you really want to go for it π
mystic hull
Eh just tryna identify what im getting into, myself π
guess I'll find out π€·π»
flat gazelle
Generally, AAA has a larger budget, higher ambitions and a more established production pipe. But the details will vary vastly.
iron cave
I didn't mean it in factual way that Indies are easier, but the chances of possibly being accepted to work with them is probably slightly higher then a AAA studio, I am talking about people who may have barely any experience that the AAA industry needs. So getting a possible position in a Indie Studio for now sounds more plausible.
mystic hull
Also, given im a little illiterate on how all the business stuff works
flat gazelle
Fair enough
flat gazelle
Depends on what the studio does.
mystic hull
So it doesnt dirrectly corelate with what the larger studio is
flat gazelle
It won't be Indie, but it doesn't have to produce AAA games.
Being owned by a larger company pnly disqualifies you from the indie label, but doesn't say much more.
mystic hull
Mhmm, makes sense. Thanks! π
flat gazelle
My studio is owned by Ubisoft. We are only 60 people so far, but we are very much working on AAA.
Since we work with more studios within Ubisoft
On our own, we wouldn't be able to.
mystic hull
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense
Does aquisition mean Ubisoft gets to decide what you work on
or is it kind of an agreement thing?
mystic hull
Sweet
flat gazelle
But take the Trials guys. They still do their own thing, but with a lot more funding
west sonnet
Originally indie meant, "independent of publisher". But that term has altered to more along the lines of small team, small, budget, inexperience, startup, self funded, etc. It's a pretty hazy term as Partikel said.
mystic hull
Yeah, it does feel weird considering how many big "indies" exist
Twin Motion is considered indie afaik, but is it really π€
flat gazelle
There was an attempt a few years back to add III (Triple-I) as a term for teams that was a mix. Think star citizen. It didn't take and everyone just got even more confused. So these days it's all just a big soup of devs.
mystic hull
yeah hah, Star citizen != indie in my book π
So I guess a better way to estimate what I'm getting myself into is to just look at what games they've made hm
ocean harbor
AAA studious make AAA games, which are classified as such, as Glad said already, by budget, ambition, exposure and potential revenues
mystic hull
Yeah, good idea
remote saffron
I wouldn't really use the word ambition π€
ocean harbor
Like the guys who did Grow Up and Grow Home - sponsored and published by Ubi, so not an indie but project is not a AAA either
well, let's say technical ambition
in past of AAA there where trying to topple each other with a tech or pipeline
so it's an ambition in a sense of not necesary making the largest MMO but taking challenges which are yet to be beatten
or what ever that word is π
mystic hull
For those of you with experience interviewing/testing people
If you ignore someone asking about what topics a test will cover, would that be your way to tell them to "figure it out yourself"? or something along those lines? π
Ignore that specific question*
ocean harbor
ignoring is im-polite
if that happens to you, perhaps person doesn't know if they can answer or not or if they have an answer at all
meaning, if you are asking that question
mystic hull
Yeah, I was π€
Hmm, well, hope I'm right with my guesses then
logically, it should be amongst the things mentioned in my resume
or just standard tests π€·π»
ocean harbor
assume what makes you feel better π
mystic hull
thats one way to say it π
ocean harbor
what I mean is that, if you are getting an interview with tech giants, then before that you would be already preparing for half a year or more, with a book or two
in that case there isn't a "topic" you shoudn't be prepared for
mystic hull
not tech giants π€
ocean harbor
in other cases , the question is very likely to be about the "job", whatever it fits into what you did before according to your CV is really not that clear
people can ask you anything, including how many giraffe you can stuff into a fridge
in one start-up I had interview of a Google level π
wasn't expecting that at all
mystic hull
google level? π
ocean harbor
yes, it can cover any subject from computer science degree and includes writing code on paper
for example, people won't give much crap about knowing some specific api, they are more interested in seeing how you solve problems, including very low level ones
besides the point π
timber swan
boys, what do I go to college for that is closest to what I do in UE4. was thinking game and interactive media design?
ocean harbor
art or coding?
ocean harbor
most of the gamedev art stuff you can learn in free time, I would spend uni on something more fundamental
like art degress are worth quite some if you know what to do with that knowledge
but I'm more of an engineer, so take it with grain of salt
just feel that degree in for example, Industrial design, can teach you a lot of tech and art stuff that can be very useful in solving problems
including those which are posed in "game art design"
but if it's a good uni, then "game and interactive media design" can be very useful, as long as it's not like a course where they teach you Maya and some 10+ old pipeline
it needs to have a good fundamental science course
Actually, we have few people here who did specific gamedev education and I think they did like it
flat gazelle
I did a vocational one.
ocean harbor
one of these people is Victor Burgos, search for his posts in this channel, I think he shared quite a bit about his experience
flat gazelle
Though I dropped out because I found a job before finishing
flat gazelle
It's designed to get you a job by the end of it
ocean harbor
we had guys who did that in Germany and technically they where already working starting from like 1-2 year
but no gamedev, computer science
imho that thing is really good, it take more time to finish study but you have like 3+ years of experience when you are done
and worked for multiple companies already
Glad, was it gamedev specific?
ocean harbor
ohhh, I forgot completely about VFX
flat gazelle
So, games and film, but most people who went through there leaned towards games.
Most people do...mumble grumble
ocean harbor
I mean, VFX is like best alligned + you still get stuff which is wider range
and imho if gamedev doesn't work out there is still a lot of opportunitites out there
I don't know what for game specific degrees people are taught nowadays, I've checked in local uni and wasn't too impressed
aka teaching someone how to make animations in Maya =/= same level of depth as teaching how animations are done, aka science behind them
flat gazelle
I have half a mechanical engineering degree. Does that count?
Dropped out of that one too...
mystic hull
I got into uni for a single semester, ended up dropping out
Quality was abysmal where I currently live, sadly
and I was already working before I joined
lilac walrus
I have a high school diploma in German
flat gazelle
Yeah same. I ended up teaching my classmates :/ But hey, who cares when it's free to study anyway.
lilac walrus
that's like programming, right?
flat gazelle
Yes
mystic hull
Yeah it wasn't free over here unfortunately ;-;
flat gazelle
Ouch
mystic hull
yeah, was a nobrainer π
I was hoping I could find education abroad sometime, but i dont even know if thats gonna do much anymore π€·π»
west sonnet
game centric degrees are pretty low quality. There's a few great unis out there of course but many just prefer to take your money in exchange for a piece of paper
lilac walrus
aye - the more specific ones tend to be the best
Game Programming and Game Art tend to have a defined enough focus
'Game Design' seems to lean towards this nebulous 'do a few weeks of X discipline and then never again'
and it's sadly the most common - people come out of those with little to no skills at all
iron cave
Aye, don't do what I did. I did Game Design, it was pretty much waste of money.
Media, computing or Art would've been better.
golden jay
(Not sure if it's the right place to ask this) So, I wanna get a degree in game design/development and for that I'll be traveling to Poland, Im pretty unaware of what I should be exactly doing (i.e, which type of university should I go to, and should I do bachelors and/or masters, and which university is the best if anyone happens to be from Poland)
remote saffron
just read back a few messages about game design degrees
lilac walrus
I'm unfamiliar with any degree courses in Poland, which tbh suggests to me that none of them may be that great
but yeah, as per yesterdays conversation 'Design' degrees tend to be of little value
warm mauve
i started a "design" degree just this year actually, and i dropped out like 3 weeks in because it was that bad
it was a complete waste of time and money, and admittedly a big mistake on my part
the biggest problem is that where i live in Australia, the game industry is pretty much completely dead. especially where i live, if you want to be a game dev, the support is honestly pretty crap
it's pretty much guaranteed you'll end up working by yourself because there's just no interest in it. which really sucks for anyone wanting to be in the industry. and the trashy internet speeds/lack of enthusiasm across the entire country really don't help.
lilac walrus
You probably want to move to New Zealand if you want to be in games in that part of the world unfortunately
spice dagger
Im Australian and freelance and i concur, its because of the ridiculous laws our government put in place that basically says that the government can tell you to put in a backdoor to software your writing and if you refuse or your employer finds out you will be thrown in jail.
Probably a better discussion for #industry-chat or #lounge if we go down that rabbit hole haha.
Still, a lot of people i know that work in this industry have moved to NZ because of how bad it is here in AU.
iron cave
@golden jay As stated above, DO NOT do the course, it creates a massive debt in your pocket that is not needed, everything they teach you, can be learned at home. The only good thing is a degree and possibly a chance to work in the industry as a Intern via the College's intern program. But that is super rear and most rarely do it. Safe yourself the trouble, do a course like Media, Computing, Law, Business, something that is more prominent to help you with your work while you practice.
lilac walrus
the advantage of a degree can often come in later when you need work visas.
iron cave
That is true, Games Design course only really has 3 good things, possibility of getting a easy internship into the Industry if they do the program, which is paid for, your degree for Visas, a very light knowledge and gain access to the needed software as a student without paying so much. But everything else is useless when you can learn it at home.
golden jay
thanks for the answers everyone and ToxicVenom
Safe yourself the trouble, do a course like Media,
do you mean multimedia by that?
pretty sure its that
and the reason i wanna do game development is just for the degree (well for the most part)
I have pretty much 2 and half years of expirence in ue4's level designing and blueprints (not c++/c# only blueprints) , blender modeling, photoshop and all that stuff required for game development
i know the degree of this is not of much value but if i do other anything other thangame development then im forced to do engineering (which is incredibly hard for me and not my interest)
I would like to know if do multimedia (which i find sorta less difficult and have mild interest in it) will it increase my chances of getting a job in any game industry?
iron cave
A degree usually doesn't massively increase your chance to get a job in the industry, it's mostly experience/skill and knowing the people to get a open door. A Degree in the course is a slight plus, but it isn't required. So I'd recommend Multimedia if they offer something that helps you in the long run.
golden jay
To be specific I wanna get a degree of either multimedia or game development because 1. I get a degree 2. I want to get a job only in game industries because thats my goal to say the least
oh
thanks a ton for that clarification
i at least got the general idea of what i should be learning now
thanks again mate
iron cave
No props, just go have a look at the Multimedia and see what they offer, while studying you should be able to get a lot of student based products and softwares for free to help you do more. 3Ds max for me was free due to being a student, and since you get about a 2-3 year access for it. It really helps you out in practicing and getting some stuff out there till you get a job.
golden jay
I actually wanted to learn 3Ds/Maya
cause' blender isnt really what people in most industries use
at least according to my knowledge
keen aurora
Just going to slip in here with my opinions: I didn't go college for game dev, but spent many years doing it. I've also spent all my time since graduating as a freelancer. With that said:
Go and get a degree, but get a degree in a field that you could get a job in that isn't just in the game industry. Computer Science, Graphic Arts, Engineering -- the game industry is very tough to get into, and when you're in it, it's even tougher. Being an indie isn't going to bring you in enough money to live most of the time unless you're lucky, are super skillful, or have a network (which you need to start building today). Having a degree and having the ability to get a job that isn't in game development - while looking for game dev related jobs will put you in a MUCH better position in life than if you go 100% in "I want a game industry job."
golden jay
wise words will surely take note of this
keen aurora
Depends on the job.
Also, having that safety net of a non-industry job means that you can be a little more risky in what you do and try
(Career wise.)
golden jay
i see
keen aurora
Like, right now, I would not have done any of the game dev stuff that I've done the past few years without having my degree as a backup.
Because if those gamedev things flopped (which many did), I could always go "that's ok. If I need to, I can go into my degree field for work and I'll still be able to pay bills, provide for my family, make a living"
If you're all in on gamedev -- you don't easily get to say that.
iron cave
Aye, doing just a degree in Games Design will nullify you in 80% of the job market.
I made that mistake of doing a 6 year course of Game Design.
keen aurora
I learned game design while getting a degree in college that was 100% unrelated to it.
level design, actually. TF2. Find a community (like this!) and do things within the community. Epic has their megajams - participate in those. Noodle with your own game ideas, share them here. On twitter. On the forums. Etc etc etc. Learn from what other people say, go back, apply what you learned, repeat ad nausium.
iron cave
Aye.
keen aurora
^
And to double reinforce that, you may find out down the road, that there is a field in the game industry that has a bunch of stuff you like and is a mixture of what you know and can do.*
iron cave
The major problem about doing multiple degrees, is that the cost is vast.
And when you are forced into a finance system, you don't get those kind of options on being able to do multiple courses. Because you can either not afford it, or the finance will not support it.
So people who had to go through that finance system will NOT be able to get away in being able to do more or have various fields.
I wanted to do Media and Computing while doing Games Design. I wasn't allowed.
keen aurora
This is true
I should point out I'm not advocating for multiple degrees (though you could do it. I almost did).
But more, fields...
lilac walrus
a good game programming degree is not narrow
it usually consists of everything a software engineering degree does, plus additional specialised content
if you're not in lecture / tutorial 30+ hours a week, then you're not doing enough work
yeah, software engineering degrees are easier
in the UK, the good ones are 4 years degrees
and yet I meet very few people in the industry with Polish CS degrees
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
keen aurora
(Should be noted, you may not need a degree for programming. I know programmers who don't have degrees and are programmers are big companies)
iron cave
I think the other problem is the availability on College's and Universities.
lilac walrus
availability and teaching quality are the two biggest issues
iron cave
As well as what they can offer, not every university or college can offer a course another can offer. And therefore also costs more in the long run.
From what I've read here, most of the courses never existed in my old university, we barely had any option. Law and Business wasn't a option, if you wanted to have a decent education the best option was Oxford... Because I can afford a couple of hundred grand.
lilac walrus
spending 200k on a game dev degree doesn't sound ideal
lilac walrus
CD Projekt hires a lot of foreign staff and is something of an anomoly in Eastern Europe
iron cave
I meant, the Government spend.
lilac walrus
my experience of working with programmers in Eastern Europe has not been great
The Czechs same the same thing
iron cave
CD Projekt Red always seems to be hiring.
lilac walrus
I hate to break it to you, but there's no such entity as 'Central Europe'
iron cave
What's next, you going to tell me that there's no earth in the center of the earth?
lilac walrus
"Central Europe is the region comprising the central part of Europe. It is said to occupy continuous territory that are otherwise conventionally Western Europe, Southern Europe, and Eastern Europe."
first line of the article
I'm also not very convinced that Switzerland and Romania have much of a shared cultural, or historical identity
iron cave
Well, least no one is making up a joke that Sweden and Switzerland are the same country.
lilac walrus
Austria and Australia is the common one
flat gazelle
Oh the Sweden/Switzerland thing is common among our friends in the west.
dire sedge
Just FYI people, on the topic of hiring and degrees, what you can prove beats any diploma. If you ace the technical test, it won't matter whether you have a degree. More interestingly, a lot of people have degrees but can't prove any of it.
A degree, can serve as (at most) a way to get your foot in the door if you have no prior experience (in which case you're very unlikely to be hired, if you lack even a single hobby project). Or, in very specific cases, as a requirement for a work visa. π
indigo hamlet
yes but try getting a job as a mechanical engineer without a degree
dire sedge
I'm talking strictly games industry. π Should have put up that disclaimer
indigo hamlet
oh yeah of course, i think thats common knowledge, at least it shoudl be
a lot of people were self taught programmers before graduating high school or whatever
dire sedge
well, above people were discussing hiring practices at Ubisoft and them requiring a diploma
a diploma will always be mentioned in the Job Description
but some things in most JDs should be treated as "or"
of course, the more, the better
indigo hamlet
oh i missed that
iron cave
It still doesn't answer the question why Q&A jobs are so hard to get into.
I thought applying for a Environment artist job was difficult, but I get more rejection notices from Q&A positions then any other job I apply for. And usually that's how some of my friends went into.
Last time I remember you don't have to be super experienced or skilled in designing, just have knowledge on bug reporting and how the engine/game works and be able to play a game and learn it's fundamentals quickly. But I guess I am wrong, because I can't get into it lol.
indigo hamlet
Q&A is more accessible so more candidates/more competition?
iron cave
See, that's the thing.
Q&A jobs are literally constant near my region.
As in, the job is never filled.
indigo hamlet
i remember you saying you have a music background. so they might see your experience in music and just skip to the next candidate
iron cave
But music has nothing to do with bug testing a game, my experience on making low-quality indie music should not stop me from applying for a Q&A position where you sit there, all day, playing the same level over and over again to double check for bugs.
That's what doesn't make sense. I've tested games when we made our own and learned the fundamentals, surely THAT should be a indicator that says "Okay, he knows how to test levels and should know how to report bugs."
dire sedge
I'm assuming that by Q&A you mean QA as in Quality Assurance (Testing)
iron cave
Yeah.
dire sedge
it's typically flooded π
it's the lowest level (entry-entry level) job you can target
iron cave
Then either they are losing people on a daily basis, or they continuesly open up more.
dire sedge
no, it's not unusual to keep open job postings that you're not actively recruiting for, especially on the bigger companies for jobs with high churn rate
and QA is usually high-churn
people either get promoted to other departments or leave
iron cave
I am surprised they aren't annoyed then with the amount of times I applied lol.
dire sedge
nobody gets annoyed because a ton of applications get screened automatically
iron cave
I've been applying for one since I left Uni, for almost 2 years I constantly spammed the apply button every time they had a opening just to get in XD.
indigo hamlet
"But music has nothing to do with bug testing a game," exactly my point
dire sedge
if you have a profile on a recruiter's portal (even internal recruitment uses tools to build candidate profiles etc.), everything you do goes into the same bin
so, no matter how many times you spam things, you won't be screened every time
and nobody will get annoyed or (sadly) even notice
iron cave
Honestly though I think at this point it's not really just for Q&A, most jobs I applied for including the ones no one wants to do, can't seem to get them either. I know Q&A are... Not worth applying for but honestly if I can get a foot in the door by just testing stuff, it'll help in the long run.
A friend of mine got into Q&A ( God knows how he did it.) and eventually managed to hit the high score and ended up working as a programmer during the process of Red Dead, he's been doing the same thing as me, by just spamming the apply button every time something opens up. I guess he was one of the lucky ones that got noticed or got added into the list.
iron cave
Same as me. A student who studied Games Design, they made a small game in Gamejam, but they were getting a lot of help from University. The only difference was that he did Programming.
Otherwise, pretty much the same setting.
indigo hamlet
only difference lol
iron cave
Technically, only 3 students out of the 42 got a job in the industry.
We had about 60 students, we lost 30.
It shows how bad the course was when only 20 something students graduated.
One was hospitalised and left, two people left as they had jobs. Another guy had to move country. Then when we went into our 5th year we had around third of our 60 students left. Then by our final year, nearly 20 were left and graduated. With only 3 getting into the Industry, one working with Contingency as a freelancer and another working as a fish farmer.
Majority of them left due to stress though, near our final year a lot of people left simply because they couldn't hack the amount of stress and work. I understand the Industry is hard, but being hospitalised because they focused too much on work... I don't think that's how it works.
indigo hamlet
To those that say Linkedin doesn't get you opportunities:
Hi Gallon, RealityTV Cast is a reality TV-specialised casting agency. As part of our reality show, we are currently looking for passionate and unique content creators in North America, with real and exciting stories to share. Your profile looks very promising and I think you could fit into some of our show opportunities. If you would like to know more, please feel free to send me an email at
they were looking for indie game devs and related lol
iron cave
I started using LinkedIn myself, but it's collecting dust lol.
mystic hull
A friend of mine also works(ed) in QA, Software engineering major, took a bunch of courses after uni and he almost immediately landed a job
he did spend quite a few months taking courses though
iron cave
If I had the money I'd take courses.
mystic hull
his resume was stuffed for an entry level
indigo hamlet
sometimes mate you just gotta bite the bullet and take whatever job you can get
iron cave
Lol, yeah. i did try that.
dire sedge
my experience hosting game dev courses leads me to believe that people leave because they vastly underestimate the kind of work done in the industry
iron cave
I'd like a job, if my tiny little town decide to not be family only.
dire sedge
and the first time they come into contact with how hard it is to make a game, they figure out it may not be for them
being left with 20 out of 60 after 5 years is really good imo
I reduced 50 to 7 in one semester :))
iron cave
Here's the thing. People noticed how hard it was, it was the University which was the major issue.
indigo hamlet
I got my first job by literally walking in a door and asking for a job, saying i was from the local school and they recommended i apply here.
iron cave
Our University was one of the worst, because it was badly planned, there was no creativity, no one took charge of problems, most of the machines kept failing, we basically had to try and finish the course with scraps of metal.
We had teacher's who at times leave a week, get a spare teacher who knows jack. So 70% of our study was us researching and doing our own work, instead of being teached.
mystic hull
Oi Venom, I truely know how you feel, having been in a very similiar place a couple years ago
If there's one thing I can say that I know will help, it's that you're looking at things backwards
i.e. hating on so much in your life honestly just takes up room in your brain that can be better used elsewhere
iron cave
Well technically I hate everything I make. XD
mystic hull
I know it sounds cheesy af, but positivity does help xD
iron cave
I am never pleased with my work, at all.
iron cave
And even when I get compliments about my work, I reject it, very, very hard.
dire sedge
I honestly and openly advise that you talk to somebody about that
π
impostor syndrome is real
and bad
and difficult π
iron cave
I blame my school for that, I never got any help so I eventually took shit into my own hands, which caused me to become depressed, so I literally do stuff to keep my mind off things. But it also caused me to dislike everything I make regardless of the praise.
mystic hull
M8, that's all past
we're here, now
Help yourself, or find someone who can, no two ways about it π€·π»
iron cave
It's the same with work, while I did my volunteering while my manager's where happy. I never really was satisfied or pleased with what I am doing.
mystic hull
That sounds like you really underestimate yourself
iron cave
I undervalue myself 24/7, technically.
mystic hull
That's a major issue
iron cave
Hence why i also asked and struggled to figure out my price in freelancing.
mystic hull
You gotta value your work, even if its bad
Just give it a value, and start from there
But tbh, I dont think its a work issue you're facing
That is, if my opinion matters π
iron cave
I am one of those opposite pride guys. No matter what I make I never feel like I am a bad-ass at it, or feel like my work is amazing compared to everyone else. I usually am the opposite and just say I dislike my work and find it worse then everyone else XD
mystic hull
Then stop comparing it to everyone else π€·π»
Seriously though, I've been in a similiar place
and I did seek out some professional help, changed my life
dire sedge
biggest loss of motivation in juniors is constantly comparing to AAA quality
you won't get there unless you have somebody experienced coaching you
mystic hull
Comparing in general is a horrible way to kill yourself tbh
dire sedge
or put in a s**t ton of work
mystic hull
Compare to lower quality, you feed your ego. Compare to higher quality, you hate yourself
iron cave
It's more or less motivation in some parts. We were asked to look at people's portfolios so we can figure out how to make ours. While the idea of seeing a professional piece of art to get motivation and inspiration, it unfortunately broke me hard and sort of ruined it for me. While I want to work hard and improve, my motivation dies quickly because in the back of my mind I always get the "No matter what I do or how much I practice I'll never be good enough". So it sucks.
And the whole "Choose your path" has fucked me just as much, I am a jack of all trades.
I don't want to be a jack of all trades. But I don't know what to work on the most to improve, because I don't know what I am good at.
And it will always fail me till I figure it out.
mystic hull
Motivation only gets you so far as 1/4 of the way. Discipline is what matters imo
dire sedge
"every bad drawing you make will teach you how to draw better" heard that from a guy who draws for Marvel
mystic hull
Though I shouldn't be one speaking about that, given I should be studying right now π
iron cave
Unfortunately, as much as I want too, I've hit a blockade at the moment which is related to this move to another Country. And due to no job, while still relying on my parents "Which I hate", I've been focusing more on finding basic part time jobs.
dire sedge
there's no shortcut. you can't get 10k hours worth of experience in any less than 10k hours π
iron cave
I mean at least I know how to use the software and can make basic low-poly stuff. So it's a start.
And some of the stuff I made isn't that bad compared to some of the stuff i've seen during my study.
mystic hull
May I suggest a book that could possibly help you out?
iron cave
I've got uh... Level up?
mystic hull
More or less π
iron cave
I think it's called, that's one of the books I got, as well as some modelling books.
mystic hull
The Third Alternative, Stephen Covey
It's a bit long, but honestly it's great
well worth the read if you're willing to put in the time
iron cave
I'll have to check it out. Funnily enough, not being high and mighty with my work is sort of a good thing, my ex'friend was very high up his horse about his work and bragged about how good he was and did at times mock my work. So it sort of gave me some motivation to make more stuff lol.
Although his content is quite... Bad.
mystic hull
Find the balance, it goes back to this Compare to lower quality, you feed your ego. Compare to higher quality, you hate yourself
iron cave
I mean, from the work I've seen from him. I can definitely do with practice, his stuff is low poly, but it's something I am capable of doing. But I am not putting myself on a pedestal where I am saying "My work beats his". I'll praise people's work of course, but I tend to never feed my ego on stating that I am so much better then another, hah.
mystic hull
M8, you're not listening to what anyone here is saying π€·π»
You dont have to be defensive about anything we say, either. We're just a bunch of internet strangers in the end
Just take a moment to listen to what we say, then discard it if you so wish
iron cave
Sorry, must've worded it wrong , didn't mean to make it sound defensive.
I do get what you mean, what I meant to say was that I was trying to find a balance between the two, it's just been difficult I suppose. I enjoy creating things and do want to improve, but I think my motivation at times just sort'a kicks me in the backside and my mind says something else. It's sort off like a spike being pushed back and forth.
It could be.
indigo hamlet
Another Linkedin message i got today: 30+ positions in Seattle, Washington
"I am a Recruiter with The Judge Group. I wanted to reach out as I saw you have great game industry experience and would love to speak with you about our current openings with Microsoft. We are looking to fill over 30 different contract positions here in Seattle. Please send an updated resume and let me know of a time you are free to connect about your experience."
i guess i lied a bit too much on my profile
iron cave
What on earth did you write. XD?
indigo hamlet
i put down my experience modding as content creator/game dev experience
so combined with my ue4 experience it looks like i got almost 3 years expereicne
when i have like none
also she's just a recruiter so
i could have wrote , i played video games for 3 years and she would have probably still sent the message
but i do wonder what positions microsoft is looking to filll
for games
iron cave
Aight, well. Tell me this @plucky hatch if I spend time finding a blueprint of something to model from, just to re-gain my modelling skills, is that how most people improve?
mystic hull
Improving is directly proportional to practice, and a bunch of other things, too
iron cave
What about if you just... Model stuff without really any references? Just to practice?
Or get to know things?
See the only model I did was the Magnum from halo which I used a blueprint for, otherwise I've done a lot by either imagenation or by looking at a image and just making it.
I can show some of it, but probably in PM's since I don't think it's allowed to post here lol.
I would probably say neither, it's more or less something I prefer to keep under wraps for my own eyes XD
Em, yes and no.
Music wise, I got some feedback from my current commission, while it did help, my client enjoyed it either way and didn't wish for me to change it. So I wasn't sure how to respond to it because it was mixed, but I would've thought if a client says "Yes that's fine, keep it" then I'd believe I don't have to fix it up any further, modelling wise I've had some feedback mostly in University, but that was also heavily mixed.
dire sedge
@indigo hamlet regarding what positions MS could be looking for in games, you need to read between the lines
and to learn to put things in the greater context
dire sedge
streaming π
and they have first parties as well
the formerly known as "Microsoft Game Studios"
which they do tend to close down every now and then, but hey...
indigo hamlet
I dunno im guess im just dreaming here hoping it's something like hololens 2 and ue4 related work
iron cave
in before you get to work on a new nuclear space missile in VR
indigo hamlet
Nah I'll literally end up working in a paint factory in the next town over, working on my game projects on the weekends
lilac walrus
Microsoft doesn't use UE4 much
they are an excellent employer though
the only studio of theirs currently using UE4 is Rare
vernal kraken
and ninja theory
lilac walrus
possibly
their latest game didn't use it
oh no, I stand corrected
Nicodemus was 4.19
so yeah, I guess they'll likely also continue using it
vernal kraken
didn't know about a new game, but just guessed that they might stick with ue4 @lilac walrus
sudden island
@lilac walrus that's very incorrect
all the gears games are ue4
crackdown 3 was also ue4 although i guess that studio isnt owned by microsoft
sudden island
technically three, albiet two are unreleased
gears tactics and gears 5 are both ue4
compulsion games use ue4 a well
state of decay 2 was ue4
lilac walrus
it's reasonable to assume the new Gears games use UE4, but it isn't confirmed to my knowledge
the UE logo is conspicuously absent from trailers
State of Decay isn't Microsoft
well, it is now
sudden island
state of decay 2 was published by them
sudden island
regarding gears, i cant give you a source since my knowledge is from knowing people working on those games
so you'll just have to trust me on that one
lilac walrus
(same deal with Compulsion in that regard)
sudden island
that is true, but regardless there are multiple microsoft studios using ue4
also fun fact: the enterprise license of ue3 came with gears of war 3 and by extension its pc version
'version' you could build the game and play it on pc
lilac walrus
I don't recall that
we had Shadow Complex, UT3 and Gears as a reference
(at Microsoft / Lionhead)
sudden island
the person telling me this may have gotten it confused then aha
or idk perhaps some licensees got it since gears 3 was a pretty late release
lilac walrus
it's possible Gears 3 came later, but by then we were using UE4
sudden island
when did you first get access to ue4
lilac walrus
2011ish, I think
sudden island
damn
i was gonna asked what it looked like back then but realized there is no way to communicate it
lilac walrus
I don't really recall it being that different to now tbh, just with considerably less features
different lighting system, old material editor etc
sudden island
yeah id imagine, like was blueprint/kismet at the point where you could make classes with it instead of just using it in the level graph
lilac walrus
I can't recall, but I believe it was always that way
sudden island
ah ok, building a game on a very early engine must be a fun time
did lionhead's global illumination thing ever come out?
or was that lpv
lilac walrus
that was LPV
sudden island
ah that explains why it hasn't been updated
lilac walrus
Epic adopted, then didn't maintain it
sudden island
did you get to use the gi solution they scrapped
sudden island
i cant understand why they felt the need to just rip it out completely and not just disable it
lilac walrus
platform parity
they needed a lighting solution that would work across all platforms
lilac walrus
it was neat, but very expensive and quite leaky, as I recall
and never worked on console hardware
sudden island
i wonder if their attitude has changed then since now the engine has ray tracing, which while no one actually knows, the temperature around the room is cold on ray tracing being a thing for even next gen gpus
actually i suppose thats partly due to archviz now using ue4 for their renders and they can afford to just buy 4 rtx 2080tis for a project
honest sundial
so.. On Component Begin Overlap.
Other Actor has a Tag I named Water.
I'm touching it and asking it what is your tag name?
it says.. Water
but if I use Actor Has Tag
it will fail
meaning If Actor Has Tag Water - True...
always returns false
any idea why?...
so it keeps telling me: I'm coming in contact with another Actor which is not Water, and it's named Water
O o
I'm using gameplay tag, so it's not a spelling error
honest cipher
@honest sundial wrong channel mate
mystic hull
Oh wow, finished the pre-interview test a bit ago