Exhausting!
#career-chat
fickle hatch
How do you manage to book it like that 😄
flat gazelle
Do a GDC presentation day 1 with prepwork and questions afterwards. Stay for a full bootcamp.
Following days I did three smaller presentations on the convention floor per day. Some roundtables, some parties/dinners with companies.
Inbetween that I scheduled meetings with potential clients, partners and so on.
I collapsed at like 10 each night, when the rest were getting their party on
fickle hatch
What does "do a presentation" mean in this context?
ocean harbor
a talk
flat gazelle
Stand on a stage, talk to a bunch of nerds about making games
fickle hatch
Like, an official scheduled one or a spontanous one or what
flat gazelle
official, scheduled and recorded
ocean harbor
yeah, rather easy when you worked on BF1 😄
flat gazelle
harder when you no longer worked at DICE at the time
fickle hatch
Yeah, no-one would give me stage time yet 😄
ocean harbor
much easier to do with local events
like with IGDA for example
our local one always looks for more people to give talks or do workshops
or do a "sponsored" talk, dunno how much it is now
flat gazelle
If you do a GDC presentation it gets cheaper as conference tickets are included for speakers
fickle hatch
Meh. Guess that's something for far future
ocean harbor
if you go there to present your game, sponsored talk should be peanuts
fickle hatch
I've got a friend who had a substantial and interesting talk ready for GDC, applied, got rejected with no explanation (I dunno about how the process goes myself, going off his words here)
ocean harbor
the problem is how many people are going to visit it
fickle hatch
So I assume it's not as straightforward as having something to talk about (subject) and being a good speaker to get a talk there
flat gazelle
Yeah, it's A LOT of work to build a talk like that. Sucks if you get rejected
honest cipher
i think that the fact that GDC talks are unpaid
and then GDC gets the money from vault
ridiculously inmoral
greedy bastards
flat gazelle
yup
honest cipher
not even a free ticket with plane and etc
fickle hatch
Again, only going off someone elses experiences as they described, it seemed to me like trying to get a talk on GDC is almost useless unless you're already invited by someone else to do it
Formally or informally
I don't know if that's good or bad, but whatever
lyric cedar
@flat gazelle is your talk on YouTube GDC Channel?
I love to watch the talks, there are lots of useful insights from experienced people
harsh brook
you can see his and others through the vaults power points
most videos aren't free but alot of the power points are
flat gazelle
@lyric cedar no it's still locked up in the vault.
lyric cedar
I see
teal veldt
Hello! I am trying to figure out a market rate for myself as an unreal dev. Can anyone chime in with some numbers based on years of experience or (me) as a hobby? Thanks!
flat gazelle
When I freelanced my baserate was $90/h. It could go up and down based on length of contract and so on. 10+ years in the industry as a VFX artist. Most of it in AAA.
teal veldt
Thanks @flat gazelle - I'm just starting out. Been poking around upwork.com - I think $60/hr would be a good start. I've charged $150/hr in my life as a SQL Server DBA ten years ago. Trying to turn a hobby into a side-hustle while I keep my full-time job.
granite brook
@wide jetty #looking-for-talent
west sonnet
Wrong chat
tawny kayak
@wide jetty Instructions are pinned to the channel.
wide jetty
Alr thx mate
plucky hatch
@iron cave
A game company such as Gameloft Montreal has a department for music, they have several music composers. The website SoundCloud is for music composer what ArtStation is for game artists. One music composer that I know worked on a few indie games, published several tracks and SoundCloud and then got a job at Gameloft MTL.
fringe wigeon
Would you guys consider this portfolio worthy? I've never uploaded anything on art station because I'm just afraid it's not good enough
I've finally decided I should maybe decide on uploading my stuff after 2 years
mystic hull
I think it's amazing o_o
fringe wigeon
I dont know, when I check other peoples stuff it's like insane
plucky hatch
@fringe wigeon
What have you done in the scene?
- Lighting
- Placing props
- Modeling
- Texturing
- Etc.
fringe wigeon
oh.. well that kinda motivates me lol
I made the buildings, some of the rocks, a tiny part of the vegetation but most of it is from megascans, the props I placed myself and the lighting is also entirely done by myself
and the texturing I did myself aswel
west sonnet
Upload your stuff. You can always delete it later.
fringe wigeon
I mean it was an assignment for a class called "level decoration" and they told us to use stuff from megascans
Alright, I'll do that then, thanks!
plucky hatch
Put that on ArtStation and explain that in the description. Specify what softwares were used. End of the story.
fringe wigeon
Alright, thanks guys!
plucky hatch
It's a pretty decent scene.
plucky hatch
Think of it this way, the best thing you can do is put yourself out there and share your works.
That's your ''little contribution'' to society. And we all grow from it.
Don't be afraid to put that stuff out there because you think it's not good enough
fringe wigeon
Alright, I'll keep that in mind! 😄
distant walrus
Hi everyone. So, I'm making a game, using assets from UE4 marketplace. If I want to publish the game to Play Store, I need to give copyright to UE4 and epic games right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not so good at this licensing and copyright things. Anyone can help?
high raven
hello, I am a programmer with 1 year of experience with c++ and blueprints. I wanted to know what kind of portfolio I need to enter in AAA studio i.e. Ubisoft, Blizzard, CD Project Red etc.
digital gate
With or without education?
ionic rose
Is the Looking for Work channel empty for anyone else?
lilac walrus
nope
ionic rose
weird, this is what I see
plucky hatch
Maybe the content just didn't load yet.
Are you using a VPN?
If I were you I would probably try to reboot my internet connection. I personally have a few ways to do it without having to reboot my PC. I don't know how your PC is setup.
high raven
@digital gate I am currently working as a gameplay programmer for last 2 years
digital gate
with 1 yr xp in C++ and BP? Guessing you went Unity -> UE4?
high raven
I was switching back and forth. Different project/clients need different engine.
digital gate
Alright well your strongest port would come from picking your top 3 favorite mechanics from anything you worked on and going over how you did em, then picking 1-3 "interesting" things and showing them off.
Could take you a bit of time but would be more worth it than just having the videos of the game.
Example: Implement a common mechanic without using the methods employed by tutorials, and explain how your chosen method works in comparison and which is better overall. (Say, instead of using traces and overlaps maybe you make use of a data structure)
Example: Showcase a non-trivial improvement you can or have made to some existing tech. UE4 source is a great area to do this in.
If you just put screenshots of the game and a quick summary such as made all the game mechanics or even created an extendable weapon system for designer iteration, ... it'd be weaker.
Feel like that's a good starting point
high raven
ok, thanks for your help. I will try to improve on above mentioned points
tawny kayak
@ionic rose It's likely because you have embeds disabled. They are required for the channel to work properly.
Settings → Text & Images → Link Preview
supple timber
there is a job open for a programmer here , its 5 euros/hour and requires no uni degree, also its 40 hours /week should i go for it?
west sonnet
Absolutely not. You’d make more working at a fast food chain
plucky hatch
what country
supple timber
greece
supple timber
?
plucky hatch
I was thinking might be Greece before you said
supple timber
oh xd
supple timber
@plucky hatch whatever should i take it?
plucky hatch
take it and look for a better job while there
digital gate
If it pays double ye why not
Wouldn't you rather code than flip burgers?
But yeah once there be on the lookout so you can move up
plucky hatch
are you sure 2 euro a hour is right? did a quick google, forgive me if ignorant, and yes greece is quite bad by EU standards but its not THAT low
supple timber
nvm i didnt calculate it right
about 3 eur /hr for the fast food job @plucky hatch
plucky hatch
Is that after tax? But yeah even if that were triple it would still be very low.
supple timber
after tax
plucky hatch
cant help you mate sorry
shy pelican
Well then; I understand it takes some time to create content, 1-2 years? depending on who...
I have my own ideas and interests within the Unreal Engine (MMA, Survival, Sandbox, MMO, No RPG)..... That is going to take some time though. I want to help someone out along the way. Maybe it will help me grow enough to take on my challenge. I am a major in web applications development. My strengths with the engine will be more in the stuff that the user does not see (such as protocols, networks, packets, encoding, etc).
My biggest hate about game engines is that I am not an artists; I am a functions/systems dev. I am kind of dependent on you guys in the end :(. For example: I know how animations work and how to animate. I don't know how to animate character-motions/movements because I don't know how a character 'should' move. Does that make sense? So; if I can piggy-back from someone and grow in UE4 from the computer programmers/systems angle... I would love to.
iron cave
So I’ve been tagged twice here, unfortunately I can’t see the last messages due to internet problems. Did someone respond to me about my current stuff related to game music?
From the sounds of it, I’ll have to scrap my semi skills in music and do environments then.
Is it worth me even keeping my music pack on u real market place though? Since it’s a super difficult job to enter I might as well start fresh and go back to environment design.
indigo hamlet
you can search for mentions of yourself in the server in the top right corner, the @ symbol will bring up where you've been mentioned.
iron cave
@plucky hatch Problem is that I don’t have any contacts or anyone that I know who could help push my stuff forward, since I got a huge collection on soundcloud, selling a pack on the market place and YouTube, that’s about it.
iron cave
Unless it’s worth me applying for random game jam projects to further build my music stuff. As people suggested.
granite brook
That qualifies more or less as a #looking-for-talent post
inland wren
How do I post in that chat?
granite brook
Check the pinned messages
inland wren
Ok, thanks
plucky hatch
@shy pelican
Here are some of the options that you have...
• Build a project, a website, forum, Discord Server, etc. and try to get help from volunteers.
• Pay others to help you.
• Learn Blender and Substance Designer/Substance Painter. And do it all yourself.
• Kickstarter, Indigogo, etc.
mystic hull
They're all career related, I'm afraid maybe a bit too many?
west sonnet
Questions are fine. Welcomed in fact. If you feel such information will provide appropriate context, go for it.
granite brook
Well that's def more on topic than anything else posted here
granite brook
Don't know if I can really answer some of these though
mystic hull
Feel free to answer just bits & pieces, anything I can learn out of it is valuable
digital gate
It'd all be a matter of presentation, really. I'm 23 - somewhat similar story to you - and demonstrating my skillset was what started to get me noticed.
I'd recommend becoming just as familiar with C++ as you are with C# - no ue bias here I swears - and taking on a project of small scope but designed to express skill (so not nessecarily pong). You might add in an alternate to the BT system for UE4 (though that's way overscoped - don't pick that one).
You want showable, interesting, domain-related things. The more detail you can show (demo, code, design) the better - although you balance that with the viewer's time.
granite brook
To be able to showcase my work at GenPhi at this moment, I have to be able to land an interview *first*, then inform them so they allow me to share.
It's worth creating a programming portfolio that you can actually share. Also what stops you from getting alllowance to share work upfront?
clever prairie
😩 mfw I'm 4+ years in game industry and never really connected with making games or tripleA.
digital gate
The interesting thing will be the hook, your background should keep them interested.
granite brook
1.2. Highly depends on what you want to do. You are asking on a UE4 Discord, where UE4 uses C++, but you only seem to have ECS and C# experience.
- It's totally possible to build up some work and get peeps on Linked In interested into you. They mostly require you to work on site though
I usually ignore Linked In
I have an account but that is just there. I don't care much about it
digital gate
7.2 They normally give you a test where you either implement a mechanic or otherwise write some code
granite brook
2.1. #looking-for-talent for example
For UE4 at least
2.2. Yes and no. I have never been asked for any sort of certificate. I do have my bachelor in IT and math by now, but never really showed it.
But I can't say that this is standard, specially since I am only doing remote contract work
I never tried to get into a company. Not interested
digital gate
Won't hurt to have it, possible without it.
Have to know the stuff either way, so just demo it
granite brook
- Yes, the code itself is more important in my eyes. If you use cubes and such (programmer art) and the code is superb, then I would really nto care about your art skills
I would hire you for programming work, not art work
- Don't know, but you could use #looking-for-talent to find a tutor.
harsh brook
competition is higher but if you produce interesting things you'll be fine, the easiest way to get in is to be able to show something that piques their interest
granite brook
(again) For UE4 at least
- That question really depends on what you want to do. If the job requires you to use C++, then hell yeah, learn C++. I would suggest learning it anyway.
And while you are at it, learn java and javascript
Just to make sure
Because you can suddenly sit on a backend system to tie that into the engine you are using
And that might not use C++ nor C#
Also try to not focus too much on ECS stuff
UE4 for example won't really work that way
Can't say anything to interviews
remote saffron
With that logic he should learn everything
granite brook
At least the most used/known languages, yes
May it only be the 3-4 that I listed
I would not only stick to C#
It's also not hard to learn the others once you learned one
The biggest issue is the first time learning programming cause of all the logical thinking and problem solving that you have to learn
You can easily pickup the C++ quirks now that you are good with C#
digital gate
C++ is a hard recommendation from me - I'd pick up JS when needed.
remote saffron
Idk i know java but would never look for a work with that. Uni forced it tho
granite brook
I had to use JS quite a chunk for GameSparks and such
I took it at Uni cause I could
(Java)
Including C and C++
digital gate
I played screeps which uses JS
granite brook
That's at least my 2 cents. You want to listen too all of these peeps here to build your own answers.
digital gate
If I ever need it for a thing it oughta be easy to pick up
remote saffron
Learn c++. Learn everything else if u need them
granite brook
My background and goals are a lot different. I have my own company while you want to get into an existing one
So just so you know where the answers come from
(you = @mystic hull )
digital gate
Guess I could give you the added context that I recently got hired
granite brook
Yeah it's worth adding some context I guess
digital gate
Not that that makes my answers any more valid
granite brook
I came into the Industry as a hobby dev a few years ago when UE4 go released in a subscription model.
I then answered so many questions for others that Epic picked me up as a moderator and invited me to GDC.
From there on I worked as a freelancers for a lot of different, small to medium sized projects.
I then founded my own company together with my girlfriend (who went a similar yet very different path).
I am currently working full-time as a remote contractor on one single project.
So it's def a lot different from what @mystic hull went through or wants to be at in the end.
My answers are really just what I think is good. :P they can be totally invalid if you ask others.
plucky hatch
yay im now working for epic games, how exciting!!
digital gate
@plucky hatch nice, congrats
shadow kelp
I'd advise any aspiring game programmer to use C++ over C#. No brainer.
honest cipher
C# is easy
C++ is hard
a C++ dev can do anything in C# trivially, but the reverse isnt true
mystic hull
Wow! Thanks a lot you guys
Yeah I initially started with C++, all the memory management and micro implementations of things that are trivial in C#, but I just fell in love ith C# ever since 😛
I do actually know javascript, php, html, a bit of java, too etc but I thought they're irrelevant for game dev, and I've used them sparingly for related smaller gigs I got, as I focused mainly on C# 🤔
Definitely a huge help though, you guys are awesome! Thanks a LOT! 😃
From the answers, I've also concluded that this means I should include the regular game programming experiences etc. I thought they'd be irrelevant since most things can be done rather trivially by any dev worth their salt with the modern engines available 🤔
@digital gate definitely encouraging, that you've recently landed a job! 👌🏻 Best of luck!
@granite brook That's rather interesting, my ultimate goal is to have my own small indie studio over here where I live, but it's a longer term goal kind of thing, have to save for the expenses, make valid prototypes to get funding etc, definitely helpful & reassuring knowing that someone else went through a similiar path, though! Thank you!
I deffo got more answers than I had expected, can't thank you guys enough!
You mind if I add you on discord, btw? Won't spam you, promise 😛
I think I know what my next project will be, though 🤔
muted lagoon
Hey guys, are there any US-oriented 3D freelancing websites?
digital gate
@mystic hull sure why not
tough blade
Was my message deleted?
iron cave
So question, on my current skillset. What job type should I search for the most? Internship based or Junior?
Or is Junior more for experts who've been doing things for 4 Years +?
lilac walrus
Interns are there to learn, Juniors are proper employees
flat gazelle
experts after 4 years? o.O
iron cave
Hey, technically anyone is a expert in my eyes if you did stuff longer then me XD.
flat gazelle
In our studio the guideline for experts is 15 year+ in the industry. Exceptions exist
Seniors at around 7 if I recall correctly
iron cave
Damn, 15 years. I guess no one who did something for 5 years would be classed as a Junior then?
flat gazelle
Intermediate/regular/associate depending on the naming
If you are a junior after 4 years in the industry you are doing something wrong
lilac walrus
15+ years in the industry is almost unheard of
I mean there are people, but they are few and far between
flat gazelle
Hehe, I hired one. But he was well above that. 15 is just the guidelines from HQ
iron cave
I only know two who managed to get into the Industry, mostly at Sumo Digital, they went in right after University. So i guess around 6 years worth of work?
flat gazelle
Expert is not a common role
lilac walrus
IIRC the average career length in games is something around 7 years
iron cave
So perhaps I should stick in finding Entry-level positions? I am not sure how Linked In's experience level works, since you got Internships then it goes up to Entry level, which I presume is sort of my level?
lilac walrus
if you haven't worked in the industry before, entry level is what you should be aiming for
flat gazelle
Yeah, the years mentioned are in the industry. Learning is on top of that
lilac walrus
Internships are optional, but can help you find entry level positions in the long term
iron cave
I was hoping that my University would've opened up positions for Non-graduate learnings in the Industry, but it turns out I missed it heavily by finishing a year too early, so I lost my chance to get a graduate position at one of the nearby Studios in England, otherwise it would've helped me gain some further knowledge on the industry.
lilac walrus
personally I don't see much difference between "entry level" and "junior"
flat gazelle
Agreed
iron cave
I've tried to apply for Internships, but that seems to be pretty tricky, so I went straight for Entry-Levels. But that also has been difficult. I'll probably look at sticking with Environments in that case for work since the Music stuff is a tricky sort to work with.
lilac walrus
Internships are rare in the UK
flat gazelle
Did you try at Rare? Badumtss
lilac walrus
I know at Lionhead we usually never had more than around 3 interns, and the number of applicants was well into the hundreds too
Rare is impossible to work for since their office is literally in the middle of nowhere, lol
I've turned down work there twice because the office is in such a stupid place
the nearest city is 40 minutes away
iron cave
Thank god I can drive, well, if I had a car. So distance wouldn't matter till I can afford accommodation.
flat gazelle
I have rosetinted memories of the shuttlebus from southam to leamington when I worked for Codies.
I thought Leamington was nowhere.
iron cave
But do they have trains?
lilac walrus
no
iron cave
Functional buses?
lilac walrus
literally no public transport of any kind
iron cave
Wow... And I thought where I live was terrible.
iron cave
Where I live, the stuff I am looking for is literally non-existent and I'd need to go out for like a hour or two just to find work related to the skills I have. But with the town being very... Expensive, as they feed the need for the rich folk, work like retail and factories are pretty much a no go. And trying to do stuff at home only get's you so far with barely no income.
lilac walrus
if you work in games in the UK, expect to relocate often
iron cave
Weeeeell that's the thing. Due to Brexit, and due to... Job issues, I am moving over to Germany, plus due to my parents being retired they preferred to move back to our Birth place. So really I've been now looking for work in Germany instead.
Since I've had no job since I left University, and only did volunteering to fill my skills bar. It sort'a left me dry.
lilac walrus
"which city should we put our office in? Birmingham, Leicester, and Coventry are good options"
"put it in the middle of all of them"
"but"
"put it in the middle of all of them!"
iron cave
Oh god Leicester, yeah that's about a 3-4 hour trip I think.
But nah I am hoping Germany will have something, otherwise I'll got'a spam stuff for Freelancing, but I've noticed there are not that many Environment Design or Level Design jobs going either.
Either I am doing something majorly wrong or I ain't looking at the right places, lol.
lilac walrus
Germany is pretty limited unless you want to work in mobile, but there are options
iron cave
If it results in me moving to another country again just to work for a Studio, I'll have to bite the bullet and go with it. I mean if I got the job but I need to relocate, that's not a issue. It's just getting SAID job.
And the closest I've gotten was a camera questionnaire/interview for Rockstar, furthest stage I've gotten as of yet.
tacit heath
German industry is very very limited. We have no real tripple A studios, if that is what you are after. Ubisoft slowly tries to get 1-2 set up in germany, but still - thats not a lot. There are some franchises, which are more towards B development (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, easier to get in, less applicants) and target mostly the german market. besides that there is quite a lot when it comes to mobile games. never worked in mobile games but I heard that they are often more structures in their worklflows (closer to regular industry software), offer better working conditions and provide better payment
iron cave
I'd do something for mobile, but I know siltch for coding and quite terrible with graphical design. And there aren't many mobile game based jobs that are varied other then programming.
Aaah it sucks being a Jack of all trades but a master of none, all my work is pretty basic.
I would've liked to do coding in my Studies, but honestly I just couldn't get through with it no matter how hard I've tried. To me it's just a text of alien language really. So I stuck with the visual stuff instead like Modelling, animating and environments.
tacit heath
you don't need to study any of these.... if that is your concern. you simply learn it. most employers dont care where you learned it, as long as you are cheap, work 60h a week and are good 😉
iron cave
That's what I've been told when I studied in University, I didn't realize until near the end that it wasn't worth the effort since majority of it you can learn at home.
Would've saved me my 37K debt. I'd pick a particular role, I just have to hope that there is work available for that chosen role. I believe I am okay with modelling and Environments, so I'll stick with Environments and see how it goes. But again since no one really gave me proper feedback during my studies I was stuck between a rock and all these different options, so I was pretty much stuck as learning each one but only have basic experience in each.
tacit heath
yeah I know what you mean. don't know but have the feeling anything art related is tough. but that might be just my experience...
but overall yeah, the benefits of the digital age. all the knowledge one needs is available online for free or a little investment
iron cave
Well while I don't have a job and my market place item isn't making me any money. I am stuck in using Student related software or using my friends profile to help me out. And honestly I feel much more comfortable using 3Ds Max then Blender or any other free 3D software, but since Unreal is Free, making environments doesn't cost much on that front for me. At the current all I've really made were a couple of basic environments to get started, with some of them that were "Good" enough to be placed on my portfolio. Including one I did with some friends for a project.
And since it's more "Who you know then what you know" it makes it a bit more difficult for me because I know no one, apart from the two friends I worked with way back in college who are in Sumo, but I am not that qualified yet to work there, honestly.
lilac walrus
'who you know' can certainly help, but honestly it's not as important as one or two people in here might make out
especially in countries with well established industry
iron cave
Ah, were I currently live that term is very common and it shows. Unfortunately it doesn't help that most businesses are also run by Families, so getting part time or full time work just to have something in my back pocket to live off is impossible as they do not hire outsiders. This why I did some volunteering to get an additional skillset in Retail, so stuff like Supervising, running shops, advertising plans and even banking is something I can do too, so I have two job related skills. So hopefully I can get something in Retail wise in Germany just to survive for a bit while continuing to practice and build my portfolio. I can show my current environments if it helps to get some PROPER feedback, since everyone else I've asked are scared to tell me the truth XD.
tacit heath
you can try and get a QA job, thats what I did. meanwhile I spread the word that I am into programming, build my portfolio and hope to transition over time either in my current company or another one
iron cave
I've tried to apply for QA jobs, countless times. I can't get into one XD.
I really suck at finding work at the moment, I have a reasonable CV, I try to make sure I write a decent Cover Letter since that's all you need when you apply, at least that's what happened to me every time I applied for one.
shadow kelp
what role are you looking for @iron cave ?
iron cave
Well it was originally composing music, but as I've been informed it is a very, very tricky and difficult market to get into. Least for video games, so I may continue doing music as a spare time to keep it fresh in my head, otherwise I'll probably move to doing environments since I've had some good enough experience making them in Unreal 3-4.
shadow kelp
ah right. Sorry, can't help. But I do have open positions for programmers in germany atm
iron cave
Ah shoot, my programming is terrible, aha.
plucky hatch
@lilac walrus don't forget Uttoxeter
lilac walrus
Notexeter, you mean 😄 ?
plucky hatch
I am sure everything is hard to make a lot of money out of but if you both enjoy what you do and have money to get by then its fine, not sure why people think its 'all or nothing' and either you become a millionaire out of it or are a complete failure
tacit heath
I think it is important to do what matters to you. High above money.
plucky hatch
true but you also need money, so strike a balance
lyric cedar
I don't want to be a millionaire, just want to earn a decent profit from games, it's a hard thing to do, to make a living from games, I know a lot of newcomers would say that they had a brilliant idea that will make a lot of money, that's not always the case and I understand why people think this way, news and stuff always put people that sold millions of copies of just one game and some may say you can do this too, but there are some developers that sells some thousands of copies, made some freelancing jobs and make a living from it, that's the majority of cases, not the best sellers cases
and it's a good thing, to make a maintainable business even if you need some help, or some other things and this unreal dev grants was something cool that literally changed some devs lives, helped or are helping some studios to finish their projects
pastel igloo
iron cave
The only reason why money is sort'a upfront, is because I need to be able to live. I mean, I have it a bit easier then probably some freelancers who are working who live alone. I am still with my parents, at the age of 25. ( WOW SO OLD YOU SHOULD BE OUT), trust me. I wish I would have my own little apartment somewhere but in reality, including what the kids in school talk about. Trying to live alone, with even a very basic minimum wage job is impossible. Where I live, people who are at the age of 25 and have their own apartment is literally a massive luxury. I am not saying I hate it, but I feel a bit uncomfortable because I don't want to cause huge bills for my parents since I am on the internet and computer every day and night trying to do stuff to make some kind of funding.
Hence why I ask all these questions, heh, because since there are people here who are working, or have gone through ( Hopefully) something similar like me, then this could give me some insight on what I am doing wrong, or need to do. And honestly if I had a job that paid I can finally pay back my parents for everything they did, and of course composing music, or doing other things like modeling or such is something I'd like to do, it's something I've done since I started college, so around 6-7 years of studying. (Mind you this is for everything, from learning how to do basic coding, to advertising and kickstarting and making various games.) But music is something I want to dig in further, even if, in my opinion, they don't sound good. And if all fails, I'll dig deeper into level design, since its up my alley for trying to push out creative designs.
My other question though, as a Freelancer, putting himself out for hire. How can one tell what your work is worth? It be nice if third parties like yourself could potentially rate if my work that I put in, is worth the money.
Sorry for the wall of text, lol.
ashen lynx
Where I live, people who are at the age of 25 and have their own apartment is literally a massive luxury. It is not uncommon, but you don't have to have your own. Hail rent. And honestly if I had a job that paid I can finally pay back my parents for everything they did You can't. The closest you can get is making your own family and doing the same for your kids. My other question though, as a Freelancer, putting himself out for hire. How can one tell what your work is worth? You sort it out by waging how fast you book your schedule. Lack of offers/lost bids point to low quality to wage ratio of your work. Likewise, being booked months ahead points that the rate is lower than it could be. P.S. Freelancing, when not living alone, turns into a one of hell. Your spouse/parents will be convinced that you do nothing, but play video games all day long.
iron cave
Ah yes, the old "You darn whipper snapper, sitting there on your blooming machine all day doing nothing productive!".
My parents don't really mind what I am doing, they've been supporting me in what I want to really do and have been trying to assist best way they can, but for me it fell ill with guilt, because, while I am trying hard to make something, there are times where it feels like I am not making much progress, or people aren't interested. Or nothing is happening. They know that I spend my time here being said productive, sure I take breaks to play games now and again just to take a load off before I continue on, same with spending some hours job hunting. But, the "Am I worth it, will people hire me?" Is what's been in my mind since I left Uni.
ashen lynx
left or graduated?
iron cave
Graduated.
I mean, I've pretty much done everything, from School to college to Uni, graduated with BA Pass and now trying to do something, and not to call it lazy for having a very long jobless record since Uni, been doing nothing but try to find work lol.
deft trench
You're UK right?
ashen lynx
What is the degree though ?
deft trench
@iron cave If you're making "something" keep making it, it only fills your portfolio. There is plenty of jobs in the industry to fill in for. Most jobs will force you to move as the distance to travel is horrific. I went to work with Rare Ltd but the distance was too much and would of had to rent a flat, just keep at what you're doing
iron cave
Travel isn't a issue. My family is very much happy to support that, it just means it'l take longer for me to repay them for everything they've done for me, including getting me to College.
The major issue, is just getting the ability to find work, or at least get accepted for a interview.
deft trench
Work on your CV and portfolio
iron cave
But the industry isn't the major issue, it's pretty much everything, Retail and Factory based jobs included. As I can't seem to get nowhere near them, even if I have the required skills needed.
deft trench
use Indeed also https://www.indeed.co.uk/Video-Game-Developer-jobs
iron cave
Yeah, got Indeed.
I've applied for a lot of various job sites, so no biggy there lol.
Indeed, Monster, LinkedIn, Artstation, even local stuff.
deft trench
I'm a university student, last year of graphics design, I ended up doing server management, but I also do game development on the side
Even if you work 2 days a week then spend time doing what you are working on like you said before, that's good, that way you can earn money and still be building up your portfolio ready to apply to a studio, I work 2 days a week and that gives me enough money to pay rent and live my life, and that's before I have my degree
iron cave
Thats the thing, it's just landing a job even if it's just something like packing boxes in a Warehouse. But yeah, issue is I can't seem to get close, plus majority of the shops in the town where I live they are mostly Family run, they rarely, barely ever hire outside workers unless their family or very close friends.
So with the deal of Brexit and all, moving to Germany might open some new doors, and due to lack of funds when I left University, I had to go through the Job Centre just to help pay off some bills each month.
deft trench
Job centre is a must for some people, I'm currently in £1500 debt cause of uni and havent finished, had to freeze my account lol, but can pay it off. Erm where abouts in the UK are you? Also what are you specialties, I can try get you a remote job
coach for?
iron cave
@deft trench You are a lucky son'of'a'bi-. I am almost 40K in debt.
And that's just from College and Uni.
37K from studying, and then another grand on Credit card debt because I was in serious red where I needed to help pay off some hefty bills.
Aye, that's the idea of the Job Centre. (Well, it is THEIR JOB but you know.).
I asked them for help, countless times.
So I've been trying to do a lot of research, or. As you can see, ask here for advice.
@deft trench In a place called Lincolnshire, it's very... Remote? I suppose, the closest to a studio is Rockstar in Lincoln, but because I don't own a car ( Have passed the test though) I rely on public transport. So right now I am focusing on stuff I can do at home or work in a shop if possible.
Right now I posses two paths of skills, Retail skills and then the development stuff, because I am a Jack of All Trades, I don't have a SPECIFIC amazing skill, I believe I can do the job. So right now it's mostly Animation, 3D Art and Graphics ( Which I am still learning fully with 3Ds Max and Photoshop), Environment related things in Unreal, and music in FL studio. As I mentioned earlier.
@plucky hatch I might look at speaking to some of the Job centres in Germany when I finished with my move, but I also need to get my grades and certificates translated to German just to see what I am worth to the job requirements. Although I know people have said Grades don't usually make up for your skill, depending on the work aha.
But the town I live in is also very out-of-date in relation to Technology companies. There are none that do stuff like website designs and such. There are tech companies for support and customer service, but they rarely look for anyone with what I am looking at lol.
plucky hatch
@iron cave
Everyone has a different story, lives in a different environment, has a different background, etc. But everyone needs to pay bills. If you are looking for big salaries, we could put them into 3 branches.
- High-income jobs (company specific)
- High-income professions (industry specific)
- High-income skills (ex: copywriting, consulting, motivational public speaking and teaching, platform selling, investing, programming, etc.)
For more details: https://youtu.be/NfzSYpqk2fo
If you are working in the video games industry, we are talking of high-income jobs or professions. If you are a level designer, you can't take that skills anywhere else. If for some reason you can't find work anymore, you are screwed. You need to really know what you are getting yourself into. The video games industry is highly unstable and unreliable. People burn out all the time. People play dirty. That's how it is.
Sure, someone could be lucky, find a nice successful and stable studio and spend 20 years there. The guys that started at Epic Games 10-15 years ago, probably have a very different view of the industry from the guys here in Montreal that have changed studio 2-8 times and have seen some nasty stuff.
If you can't find a job in the video games industry either to get started or continue your career, then what?
iron cave
Well I've done some work in Retail, at least from a volunteering background. If I may not get into the Industry, I could potentially just look at doing freelancing or work on my own little project, or look around for other Indiedevelopers who want the extra help.
Hence why I've asked if anyone else, who is a Freelancer, could tell me how one could figure out the worth of your work for when you put yourself up for hire.
plucky hatch
There is a strong demand for programmers at the moment. I'm literally getting spammed by job offers.
While I have 6+ years of XP in the video games industry and have trouble to just find jobs.
It's highly competitive.
iron cave
I don't even have that. XD I only have 6-7 years of basic experience studying. Never even did QA jobs cause I could never get close to a interview. I've tried my hand at programming when I was doing the final projects in the course, but god it hurts me hard. My brain can't handle it as it's just pure alien language. I've been trying to get into it couple of times, spending a entire week on it too just to figure out how it works but it was just a bit too difficult for me. The closest I did was blueprinting or making a tiny side-scroller with Lua in Corona.
Or... Making a gun shoot melons with my own sound effects in Lua, on Gmod. That's the closest in coding.
Although I know BP in Unreal isn't a full hands on in coding, but it was something I somewhat understood and could do.
plucky hatch
@iron cave Why do you want to work on video games?
In the first place.
You really need to be oky with working on games that you might not be a big fan of, because that's just what the game company is working on right now.
It's production work.
iron cave
Child hood, really. I've been playing games since I encountered by first Gameboy, you know the really, big hefty ones before they released colour. I think I was around 6 then? Then I moved on to getting my first PC, windows 95, then moved with Nintendo and the list goes on, I've explored various games from Mario, Super Mario, Nintendo 64 like Banjo and Kazooi and list goes on. So I don't really care about genre specifics, although for me RTS, RPG's and Horror tend to swing my way the most, I am pretty open to most game genres and topics. So if it's literally a game about building a house, or... I guess painting a unicorn? It doesn't bother me.
And I know how the Industry works in relation to development, what is the main goal and what we're tasked to do, I know that you are informed to make what is planned and don't usually have the option to make your own stuff or make something you enjoy in relation to the genre. It doesn't bother me, the only thing that matters is that I am being placed in the right department, people happy with what I make and present, and learn.
plucky hatch
@iron cave uni debt is shit but you don't have to pay anything until you reach a certain income and if not paid you don't take it to your grave thank god
iron cave
Aye, how the MP's believe that students can afford to spend 30+K on studying, not everyone's got rich parents, aha.
plucky hatch
No but the idea is you only pay if you are or get rich
Or at least reasonably well off
Without that it would be totally awful
iron cave
Yeh.
shadow kelp
37k for a degree in the UK now?
I got off lightly with 9k when I did mine
I don't see how that makes financial sense if you want to go into games, especially one of the lower-paid roles
plucky hatch
20k for private degree
Something like... 1,200$ if it was a public college sponsored by our government.
Could go up to 10k for 3 years far away from home
shadow kelp
although now thanks to Brexit, you're going to need a degree if you want to work in Europe
lilac walrus
that remains to be seen
the way things currently are, working in Europe might not even be possible
shadow kelp
utter shambles, supposed to going to our partner studio first week in april but it's on hold because advice is not to travel until our status is confirmed
lilac walrus
yup, good, innit?
shadow kelp
my contempt for that shower in Westminster is....vast
lilac walrus
it highlights how truly ineffectual the current government is
the fact they had utter contempt for parliament is largely what's caused all this too
two years of secret negotiations that clearly went nowhere
and by 'negotiations' we of course mean 'attempted bribery'
"You'll get to discuss what you want after we've secretly negotiated the deal!" - UK government
"We're delaying the discussion until the 11th hour because we've negotiated fuck all" - also UK government
iron cave
The reason for the large debt was mostly from the student finance that paid me a full grant and then the benefit to study each year, but it paid for my college and my 3 years in Uni. So it’s heavy.
And the whole deal with working in the EU, living there and such, should hopefully not be a issue. If I need a degree, I least have a said degree to support me, and since we already have a home in Germany and I am German by birth, including my mother, not my father. We shouldn't really, hopefully, have any issues in actually living there.
granite brook
Well, Germany has some things going for you to stay in Germany if you already are working here. @shadow kelp most likely knows that stuff inside out by now.
You should def have no issue living in Germany if you have the citizenship. If not, then I don't know if you being born here makes a big difference.
It's also not like we don't want you peeps working and living here just because of Brexit. It's just not that easy anymore if the whole EU stuff isn't existing anymore between UK and Germany
iron cave
It's just a shame the MP's are tossing Brexit around without really noticing the consequences for people who work or are born in another country and moved. I am not too sure if WE already have a citizenship, all I know is, our names exit in the registrations due to the house that we have since... God, 1994? I still have a Birth certificate with the location of Birth which should back-up our claim.
As of yet, the amount of times we travelled to Germany to move our things there wasn't any issues, and I believe it won't be any problem until the 29th. Or the Hard Closure, or what ever the new deal is by the MP's.
shadow kelp
I have a temporary residence permit courtesy of applying for residence, but the authorities here have advised that in the event of no deal, they cannot guarantee right to enter, so we should not travel
iron cave
I just love the decisions the big heads are doing without really looking at the major consequences. I am still in the UK for a while because we're trying to sell our house ( Even though it's becoming a pain in the back-side because we've been having issues for a year trying to get rid of it just so we can move.) so we want to get into Germany by the 29th, or at least be registered by the Foreign Amp, according to the regulation, so long it's before the 29th of March I should be okay and we're heading back a bit later just to get ourselves registered. All a lot of craziness honestly.
granite brook
Would def not hurt to do all the paper work in Germany so you don't have any issues when your house is sold
- paperwork in Germany is a nightmare to begin with hehe
iron cave
Aye, well thing is we can only do so much because we're all sorted, we're just waiting on the solicitors ( And because their a pain to deal with, they like to stretch out the time to earn that extra cash.). So we're moving over to drop our next stuff off while waiting for our solicitors to tell us it's been completed, and hopefully have enough money to survive paying any bills needed. If lucky. Just means in the mean time I'll apply myself to the Job Centre in Germany to get a running start, if I am allowed that is, and hopefully get my grades recognized in the German grading system.
sand prism
Hmph
plucky hatch
Would like advice from anyone trying to support themselves and is indie/low key
plucky hatch
Get a high-income job outside the video games industry. Buy time. Provide for your family. Also great to avoid any legal issues, because if you were to work for a game company, often your contract would prevent you from working on your own indie game projects.
hybrid phoenix
Alternatively, get a high-income job outside the industry, save up, quit said job at some point in the future and then do gamedev
plucky hatch
I heard it was cheap to live in Thailand...
plucky hatch
If you got a family to feed, maybe it's a different story.
hybrid phoenix
That said, if you do that I'd say you always want enough money in the bank to be able to move back
So have a big buffer, and don't touch it unless you have a very good reason
lilac walrus
the legality behind moving somewhere to work can be dodgy though if you don't have an employer, hehe
lilac walrus
contracts etc
copyright is a powerful tool in itself
someone can't just sell your work
also it's pretty hard to sell something secretly...
mild spade
become a contractor. sell your souls and get paid to make other peoples games instead 😄
indigo hamlet
I'm actually currently looking for places I can sell my soul
mild spade
Whack a CV together and post in #looking-for-work I've done better contracting this last 15 months than my previous 3/4 years of own IP dies inside
indigo hamlet
Yeah but I have limited experience/portfolio so I'm trying to find people outside of game dev industry to hire/buy/contract me to make a game for them
unless those people come here to hire people as well
west sonnet
Upworks is a decent place to start selling your soul
hybrid phoenix
Those people will probably want an even better portfolio, honestly
Because they don't know what they're talking about, so they'll want you to produce really good-looking stuff
Because that's all that counts 😛
west sonnet
☝🏼
indigo hamlet
"I will make you a working video game for $5"
iron cave
Freelancing would be the best bet.
It's what I am trying to do since it's the only current option while not being able to find proper work. Yet.
Although a tad unfortunate that I've only got one Commission right now, but it's better then nought.
west sonnet
I’ve had a kid who wanted me to make a full stack character (sculpt, retopologize, texture, animate it, etc) for $10. You’ll get a lot of nonsense such as that when starting.
iron cave
I don't know if I am undervalued, I was asked to make three tracks for £15. I said why the hell not, £15 is £15 for now and it's better then earning £0.
And even if it's little it'll help me in a short term for now, while I am lucky to be with my parents, I don't want to rely on them fully in relation to funding since I want to be able to support myself, and since Job hunting is a tad of a struggle, think Freelancing is the best way to go for now, unless I am told I am terrible then boy off I go. aha.
@plucky hatch Make sure you have backup of your work, from your first stages of planning to the finisher. I always make small documentation about my work to back up any issues if someone attempts to copyright my work.
Although I doubt they would, it's nothing special.
west sonnet
It always depends on your rate and how many hours you’ll sink into it. For my example, the character would cost $500 minimum. I’d make way more flipping burgers than going with that contract.
iron cave
But do you do it in a hourly rate or a full pay on the finish?
west sonnet
Most do milestones
iron cave
Milestones?
See, I was contemplating on potentially going for a hourly rate if I was hired, but because I don't know my value of my work I don't want to oversell or undersell myself. And I usually send a client test tracks that I did to see if they actually like it, and if they do, I tend to sit down for a hour to make a deal. But I eventually decided maybe it's best to do the full pay at the end before I hand over the work, although I'd share the progress of my work as I go along to make sure the customer is happy.
keen aurora
Just to be slightly pedantic - royalties implies payment post-launch for the continued use of something that was created. To pay the creation of something, you'd be looking at hourly/day/milestone rates.
iron cave
I haven't done anything royalties wise yet, for now anyway. At the current I've only had one commission that was just "Can you make me three soundtracks for Genre here and I'll pay you when you finished?"
west sonnet
You define the pipeline. At each milestone, the client pays a sum. That way, the client won’t waste your time if they refuse to pay for it upon completion. This also allows the client to back out of the contract without leaving you high or dry.
iron cave
I see. So what I should do is ask for a small fee up front and then the rest of it at the end?
west sonnet
No, unless you have a reputation
iron cave
I don't, hence why I asked on how someone with barely no reputation would go about with the commission. I know the guy personally, but its more or less at a later date when I may get another one who could be a stranger asking me to make something.
But I wouldn't know what kind of deal could be made so I don't get pushed into the corner.
west sonnet
The benefit of milestones on the client’s end is that they can assess your progress with less financial risk
keen aurora
Also, please, oh please get a contract.
Something that's binding and outlines everything from milestones and what happens if payment doesn't occur, and what you're owed and whats expected of both parties
Especially if you're doing something for a friend.
iron cave
Again though, I'll need to look closer at the price barrier for video game musicians. Since I've looked through reddits Indie-Dev group, a lot of them are pretty high up, but I think that's due to major experience levels.
west sonnet
I for example will provide a block out of a character. I ask them to pay for the milestone to continue. They can say yes or walk away. I’ll ask for another milestone payment for when the model is complete but not textured. The client can say yes or walk away.
keen aurora
Reddit's r/gamedevclassifieds isn't the most accurate or best place to get an idea of things.
iron cave
Thats what I originally thought, but there aren't many sites where you have indie based composers for video game specific. At least not what I could find.
And if I was able to see what other composers usually put up on their price tag, and the quality. It might give me a idea on what my work is worth. Hence I haven't requested any Hourly rates yet.
And I usually do that with my music by simply making a short, probably one minute test track on what they requested to see if they like where it's going or not. And then I gradually share more of it as I go along in development to keep them informed and let them send me feedback if there's any changes or if they don't like something.
Thats pretty much it.
keen aurora
So I guess the question about rates is - do you want to do this full time?
iron cave
Of course. Music is something I love, while I enjoy doing other stuff like environments and such. ( Which I'll need to do anyway later on as music is a bit difficult in relation to finding work with it in the Industry) It's something I enjoy doing, and eventually I'll branch out to environment design fully as well so I got two places I can master instead of being a jack of all trades, which I am at the moment.
But like I said, I don't fancy charging people a price that doesn't fit with the work, like. I get paid a large sum for something that's rather terrible in the end. Or I undersell my work with a very low sum, when it could potentially turn out that the soundtrack was that good it's worth more.
So I need to find a balance and a way to spread myself out in the market. While I still don't have a website, I'll probably set up a basic website with WIX till I can afford to pay someone to make one for me or I'll try to make myself one, in some way.
keen aurora
So the payment vs quality thing can be (partially) solved with contracts. You can outline what the approval methods are, iterations, etc and how that affects payment. Contracts are super hella important, yo.
Underselling sometimes is ok if there's another value that will come from the specific project. You don't want to always do it, as it'll just devalue your work regardless (which you don't want).
Re: Websites: Wordpress has a really cheap/free templates you can use that would be great. I would also consider at least getting yourself a custom url that you can use, as it 1) Looks more professional 2) is cheap and 3) can usually be easier to remember.
And if you change website platform (say, to something that isn't wix) all your previous posts or business cards and whatnot, still work.
iron cave
Yeah, i see. Quite a lot to look into, I'll need to take a thorough look at it all though once I've fully moved to the other country.
indigo hamlet
The other option, is that since you still live at home, you can afford to take bigger risks otherwise, such as royalty work for game projects that look promising
keen aurora
As someone who did exactly that for a couple years after college I would be very, extremely wary of suggesting it.
indigo hamlet
yeah now that i think about it, promising games should be able to find some funding
keen aurora
Because it's extremely risky
iron cave
As I have a safety net, it did come to mind a couple of times to do some royalty work for projects, but it's... Eh, I don't know, subjective I suppose.
I am just trying to avoid disappointing peeps, that's pretty much the main case.
keen aurora
Royalty projects can just keep going and going because many don't have a financial 'limit" if that makes sense.
iron cave
Yeah.
keen aurora
And as such, can easily just fizzle out and no one gets anything.
iron cave
I've been in two? But both of them weren't any good. As they both barely had any development going on and I doubt that I'd ever get paid when it's released.
So It's sorta hidden in the back of my head of ever doing any royalty stuff for now.
keen aurora
I've done 3, but they've all been "we are 100% launching and we will 100% get a minimum X amount of cash"
Those are the unicorns, but also the only ones you really want to go for.
iron cave
Ah the "We will definite launch on this day.... Someday. A little later, maybe tomorrow?"
keen aurora
Yes
But also, they were legitimately going to launch, by the time i participated within them.
So it was far less risky, and just more of a time-offset-payment thing
iron cave
It's time and progress that's the big issue. The one I was in there was around 10 developers, but the progress was so, sooo, sooooo slow. It turns out there was lack of communication, people were missing, nothing was uploaded. That was a major red flag for me.
So I am a bit icky when it comes to game projects.
Not that I dislike it, sure it takes a lot of time, but if there's no communication, or one is doing all the work and the other one isn't? Yeah, no thanks.
iron cave
Aye.
keen aurora
I think for everyone 1 good (not great, just good) contract I've gotten
iron cave
I gathered this sort of thing will be super tough, but. I can't progress if I don't bite the bullet and get on with it, eh?
keen aurora
I've had like 20-50 bad ones pass by my inbox.
Part of it you just need to jump in and figure it out, yea.
iron cave
That's to be expected. It's the same with job hunting. You'll apply and apply, with every 100 CV's posted, you get 10 replies, with mostly all of them being negative, till you hit your 200 application and you get a job. XD.
keen aurora
And network
Most of the good/great gigs I've gotten have come through my network.
So like, be on twitter, try and get to events if you can, etc. etc.
Meetups! etc etc.
And (sorta finally) don't be afraid to be a little branchy with what you're doing. Try not to be just "I want to make game soundtracks" consider "well, I knw how to do UE4 audio, so I could do that too"
or whatever.
iron cave
Yeah, I've managed to set up my LinkedIn account to just to get started, but I have to focus on work outside my 2 hour driving limit as the area I live in is basically heavily industrial and agricultural, barely any technical side of things at all, but it also comes with a huge cost of majority of the work being run by families who do not hire outsiders. And the hefty "Who you know" term, honestly it's a bit of brown nosing the bosses to be fair, while I understand it's used for other areas of work, retail and such doesn't really have to be so difficult you need to brown nose to get a job.
And Oh yeah, I am definitely branching out per say. I've got a portfolio specifically for my 3D and Environments, YouTube with some of my animation videos, imgur with all my 2D art stuff and posters and then my SoundCloud for all my music. So I got a bit of everything.
keen aurora
Yea
Freelancing now a days is very much bespoke when it comes to what-works-and-what-doesn't.
The universal constant though is the network.
Please do all that.
iron cave
Time to set up a twitter then, wooh. Never used it. XD
God I must be the most old fashioned freelancer there is since I don't have a twitter. I've had so many comments about me not having one. "How can you live!". I barely use facebook too unless I chat with a friend or do some job searching, due to the groups that's available.
indigo hamlet
toxic have you posted on fiverr?
indigo hamlet
it's for posting yourself to do freelance jobs/gigs
but nevermind
there's 3402 results when searching for video game music
west sonnet
Also a good place to sell your soul
iron cave
Woah, woah.
If I want to sell my soul, I might as well do a "Do not die on Dark Souls" run.
indigo hamlet
earlier i was even gonna post an ad on craigslist
but it's $5 to post a service ad
iron cave
Craigslist, lol.
indigo hamlet
you'd be surprised what you can get from using craigslist
iron cave
I know you can find unwanted room-mates. Nah I kid, but eh. But the way Hightide speaks about Fiverr, sounds like a pretty place.
But I think I would like to keep my soul.
indigo hamlet
he says sell your soul because you're creating something someone else wants, not what you want
iron cave
Oh, yeah I never was much bothered by it, unless I am expecting to make a happy MLP soundtrack.
Theeeen we need to have a serious conversation.
indigo hamlet
but it seems there a lot of competition for music composers on their
although ue4 music only gave two results
so there's an in, that way
iron cave
We talking game specifics or overall? Since I've been told the video game market for music is limited due to studios usually only needing one. Or some indie developers having their own.
indigo hamlet
i typed video game music and it gave me 3402 results of people offering service
some of them might be duplicate accounts or not actually related services
but you search ue4 music or unreal engine music and nothing really comes up
woeful iron
because music is not really related to a game engine?
ocean harbor
^
even sound engineering would be largerly out of scope as people use various middleware, like FMOD and etc
woeful iron
once you have the .wav file or whatever the musician's job is over in games, so totally engine agnostic
indigo hamlet
well if you search unity music the results are there. my point was throwing ue4/unreal keyword into his posting wouldn't hurt
it's obvious why there's no results
iron cave
Aye, I am not specific on Unreal, I can pretty much do it for any engine.
Or overall, for anyone.
plucky hatch
https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/events/experience-everything-unreal-and-more-at-gdc-2019
Additional Talks by Epic — GDC 2019 sessions offer an incredible range of UE4 educational opportunities by a variety of speakers including a ‘Technical Artist Bootcamp’ by Epic’s Ryan Brucks, ‘Killer Portfolio or Portfolio Killer’ Parts 1 & 2 with a panel of industry experts, and ‘Preventing Bugs: The Dark Matter of Early QA’ with Epic’s Chris Rando. Check below for details on these talks and more.
frosty nimbus
I read this series of blog articles. As someone's who's looking to break in, I found it enlightening.
hollow pivot
Hi. Need some advise here. Been spending all my free time i have which is not much with baby and family. 36 years old and never worked for a game studio.
Want to pursue a career but for obvious reasons i will need to enter as an intern or junior position.
However im seeing countless anecdotal reports of ageism in the industry and especially being fresh to the industry i not only have age counting against me but also lack of experience.
So im thinking its not a viable option to pursue this path.
However im not sure if its self defeatism talking or just realistic thinking
ocean harbor
I don't think age on it's own matter much, it's more of your salary expectations and work environment
hollow pivot
obviously i wont click well with 20 something year olds. At least not on a lets go grab beers after work.
and in my current industry we are more geared towards... you get to work and you are productive for 8 - 9 hours. then you go home
theres no lazing around and spending 12 - 14 hours at work just because its fun
i have no idea what the games industry is like. i am assuming its more of a its fun to be here lets hang around as much as possible. chat, watch videos, be creative etc. then work a little. repeat
ocean harbor
depends on company
hollow pivot
thing is i want good "work / life balance". Go to work, Do my job. Go home and enjoy my free time with my family.
Also job satisfaction. Which i can get from game dev.
But i also need stability, especially with plans on getting a second kid
ocean harbor
you need to work at AAA for that, which is not something you just get into
plucky hatch
I believe that most people who want to work in the video games industry have no idea what they are actually signing up for. And might be slightly disappointed.
hollow pivot
so the logical thing is, study more in my current field and focus on game dev in my spare time as a hobby and work towards my own indie projects instead
ocean harbor
pretty much
hollow pivot
why do you say that @plucky hatch
ocean harbor
because people expect that if games are fun then making them is fun too, while it's just a job as any other
plucky hatch
It's fun to work on a team of 2-25 people. Above that, there is a core team and everyone else is a number.
hollow pivot
the more research i do the more volatile the industry appears
ocean harbor
it's a part of software industry and as result not very mature industry overal
hollow pivot
for me the satisfaction comes from having to struggle on something every day.
That is what i consider fun
ocean harbor
so skills of people can be all over the place, management can be non-existant or based on best technical skills 😄 and etc
hollow pivot
sounds pretty much like where i am now
i am PM, Account Manager, SLA Manager, Techie and dev manager
all rolled into a nice who gives a f
ocean harbor
and probably without formal management education? 😃
hollow pivot
yes i see that all day every day. no people skills or idea how to manage a team. but gets the salary and does nothing else
ocean harbor
I would advise to work on some hobby project, without much focus on financial gain. If needed can be used for CV and just to have fun.
plucky hatch
The industry is changing. And there is always a point where companies get too big for their own good.
Producers used to be ex-programmers/designers. Now, they often are business people with a background in management.
We used to just have game designers. Now we got UX designers, game economy designers, etc.
Some people think wroking on AAA games is better than mobile. Man, when I joined a AAA team, was morel ike vacations. Less things to do, more time to work on my stuff. Higher salary. That's rich... lol...
hollow pivot
That is how its supposed to be. You can focus.
i really want to pursue game dev. geared towards creating tools for the level designers and being a level designer myself. but honestly i get most satisfaction from making construction scripts to streamline level design
dunno. its a sobering notion of continuing down a career that pays the bills but give me no satisfaction
and when i did Indie, man... chasing contracts and freelance jobs took more time than actually doing the work. and when i did do the work the hours did not justify the payments
plucky hatch
The industry is just not for everyone. And the more you care about games, the more it is likely to get on your nerves.
hollow pivot
or is it the payment did not justify the hours
ye it seems to be a strange culture this industry
though i cannot fathom it really
plucky hatch
You see 1 game being rushed. Not so bad. But then... it goes up to 5, 10... 20+... It changes people.
hollow pivot
you mean every game gets rushed?
or hours?
ive done crazy hours. thats not a problem but yes it does change people.
I had a project that required 16 hours a day for 4 months straight including weekends
when the project finished i was no longer me and still am not. 3 years later
but with kids and wifey and well. quality of life i cannot see myself working those hours ever again
does this mean i should definitely not pursue an intern post at a game studio?
plucky hatch
Game dev spend years on making games and some of those games won't last even a year.
All those sacrifices... for what?
iron cave
Or they get butchered by bad choices, like the games that came out today.
plucky hatch
I remember doing overtime non-stop for 4 consecutive projects that got cancelled one after the other.
hollow pivot
All those sacrifices... for what? thats the thing. its a job. one that can be enjoy but family comes first
iron cave
Thing is you are just another cog in the gears.
muted lagoon
But what if you don’t have a family 👌
hollow pivot
if you dont have a family you still need your time to live life outside work
plucky hatch
That's not just a job. All the hours of overtime you'll make, you'll do them because the management was done right and it's for a game company that doesn't necessarily care about your well being or the one of your family.
hollow pivot
cant slave away for nothing
iron cave
It seems to be a common occurrence too.
Rockstar did it with Red Dead 2.
People had to work overtime just to get it ready to be published.
And I am sure Bungie did too when they released Halo on Xbox.
hollow pivot
sounds like a toxic industry
plucky hatch
If you visit gamasutra.com, you'll read stories from devs that say students get hired, but the more experience you get... after 5+ years it becomes harder to find jobs. And companies that want to deal with vets who know and understand how poorly managed a studio is and don't want to have to pay for their shit
muted lagoon
There is no company which care about a middle ranked employee
iron cave
Probably explains why the Indie Developers are more favourable, but even they have problems.
hollow pivot
thats actually why i am here. cause i just read those articles on gamasutra and immediately stopped my portfolio work i was busy with
plucky hatch
I worked at a Database company that had 600+ clients. We worked 8 hours a day, that's it. On friday, we even worked half a day, spending the rest playing nerf guns.
hollow pivot
to discuss and think this through before i pursue something that will be detrimental to my family
muted lagoon
I wouldn’t be so confident about the situation with overwork in indie
iron cave
In my opinion, do something you enjoy, but look at various options WITHIN that choice.
hollow pivot
but indies come and go like spring flowers
iron cave
Indies come and go and create great games. But then you got the issue about particular... Errors.
hollow pivot
maybe arch viz. im not even sure if that is an actual career option nowadays
iron cave
Look at that one game that came out what, a week or so ago? Publisher ran off with the guys money.
A developer was asked to put the game for WII U.
hollow pivot
Look at that one game that came out what, a week or so ago? Publisher ran off with the guys money. hmmm. what game?
iron cave
Stuff didn't go to plan, so, even Indie's got problems lol.
plucky hatch
One of the thing that I think is very important to mention. The industry is very different from one studio to another, from one team to another. But there definitely are similarities.
muted lagoon
One side of the problem is the people do not know how to get some rest
iron cave
@muted lagoon That is true. I've seen cases like this when I studied.
hollow pivot
rest is easy. get home
muted lagoon
Same
plucky hatch
Studios change also over time, as people come and leave, it changes the nature of the studio as well.
It's very dynamic
hollow pivot
pick up my son. chill
iron cave
You'd think studying a games course is simple. Then I realized, a guy got hospitalised because he had to do everything by himself since his team left him.
hollow pivot
indies dont seem too stable though in terms of job security.
plucky hatch
The guy who built the car physics for GTA 4 left the team at some point and others were left trying to figure out how that system was supposed to work. Which is why GTA 4 ended up with some really funky car physics
iron cave
Because most Indie's are relying on self funding or kickstarter. You now have proper Publishers who help Indie developers, but for some reason, the indie publishers are getting more and more bad rep.
Did they say why the guy left?
I wasn't really up on the whole story with GTA4.
plucky hatch
Whoever told me that GTA4 story, left the industry. Burned out.
iron cave
Damn. Poor sod, I am aware working in the industry is breaking, but... Sheesh.
muted lagoon
But what you gonna do
hollow pivot
its not only game dev as stated. i see this in our industry. in fact i have an issue now cause the guy who made a specific app left and no one knows wtf is going on with it
iron cave
Oh of course, Hospital's, factory, list goes on.
I think it's also the rush of delivery.
plucky hatch
If you are a rockstar character artists earning $120k+, that person will probably have a different view on the industry than everyone else.
iron cave
If you are forced to work hard just to rush for a deadline, I can see it'll kill you.
But it seems some forget that rushing also makes the product horrible.
Depending on the job of course.
hollow pivot
what is up with the rushing though? is it budget constraints?
plucky hatch
I had the opportunity to work as QA Microsoft compliance tester, technical game designer, level designer, 3D artist and programmer (outside the video games industry). I definitely don't have the same experience as the guy who has been making art for 7 years.
muted lagoon
Why not
iron cave
@plucky hatch More experience then I ever gained, work wise at least.
More or less you worked on various directions but the guy who made art for 7 years solely focused on that.
plucky hatch
Depending on your personality type, this could be your dream job or your worst nightmare.
iron cave
And like you said, depending on placement/studio/area.
plucky hatch
If you are the type of person who wants to join the industry to make the next big thing, it's unlikely that it's what you'll find.
muted lagoon
Or both at the same time👌
hollow pivot
so ultimately... its a gamble with little to no definite viable lifestyle
iron cave
From what I've been told by my friend, Sumo Digital is okay, he worked there for over two years so far and he seems to be enjoying it. So chances are that's one of the rare studios which is... Alright?
They seem more relaxed, but that's about it. Ish.
fluid relic
once everyone talking here ends it, I'd like to get some tips on how to start as promoting myself for a potential job. I have several questions about the area and such. thanks in advance~
up for talking in DMs, if you feel it's better/less cluttered over there
hollow pivot
no i literally just want to join the industry cause what i enjoy most is cursing at my monitor cause this god forsaken script / code is not doing what its supposed to be doing
iron cave
@fluid relic On the same boat on that one, trying to promote myself for work. You found a job you are trying to get into now, or this mostly for freelance, self hire?
fluid relic
mostly for freelance. I've been checking the job channels and, for example, I have no idea how I could make a portfolio
what I should point out there and such. it's easier when it comes to art, but I have no idea when it comes for, say, mechanics design
iron cave
Do you have a starting bit for a portfolio? Do you have something you can work with? What's your position or focus?
muted lagoon
Mechanics design hey
iron cave
I use Artstation for most of my visual stuff, not sure how you'd go for mechanics. (never done anything related to it, silly me.)
fluid relic
I have years of hobby, unpaid developing for both traditional RPGs (non-electronic) and I'm quite fine with UE4 at the moment
muted lagoon
List of the projects you worked on
fluid relic
yep, exactly
hmm. what if the projects were all done for hobby and never got a proper public release? @muted lagoon
descriptions? pictures? how should I expose it?
should I expose it, even?
hollow pivot
perhaps small playable demo rooms of the mechanics?
fluid relic
🤔
hollow pivot
beats videos
plucky hatch
Another thing that people don't realize is let's say you join a game company. And end up being a vary valuable asset. You end up doing a hell lot of things internally. You help design in-house game engines, improving production pipelines, you help creating new job positions to fill very specific roles, you mentor new comers, etc. And then one day, it's time for your promotion and the director of your department is unaware of everything you did for the company for the past 4 years and give the promotion to a new guy friend with the producer of your project. And basically, all the work and time you invested in that company... nobody knows about it because all the people you worked for maybe left last year.
iron cave
Shouldn't much matter if you never released them, if you got a way to show it. Most of my models were never seen in a game but I made them for my portfolio lol.
hollow pivot
@plucky hatch that is basically exactly what has happened to me and is still happening to me in my company now
fluid relic
yep, but it's for art. I'm having a hard time on how I should expose mechanics, for example
iron cave
@plucky hatch Yeah, going to say as Boban did, that's just the case of how things work. I've seen this stupidity happen a lot where I used to work a long time ago at a small warehouse for a internet selling... product company just to earn some cash in college.
fluid relic
I have literally a project here with a lot of complex mechanics on it. I don't know if I could make a branch out of it of a technical demo or something
iron cave
A guy who joined a second day got bumped into Supervisor because he "Knew" the boss.
plucky hatch
That's correct, it's not exclusive to the video games industry. But that's just on top of the rest.
hollow pivot
make a technical demo @fluid relic
fluid relic
should I make a single demo with everything I can put on? or focus on some stuff? I literally have no idea where to start, haha
iron cave
Freelancers can be their own boss, so, don't have to worry about being promoted or demoted. LOL.
fluid relic
since I'm used to mechanics, I usually make them work, standalone and together with other mechanics. I don't have a proper game, but I have the mechanics for it
plucky hatch
Friends promote friends, over time employees leave and move somewhere else and after 5+ years many companies are filled with less than qualified people managing it.
hollow pivot
i would throw it all into one. but thats just me. i have no experience but that was what i was working on until i read the gamasutra stuff
iron cave
Thats the thing, someone who worked there for almost 10 years only got to supervisor on his 9th year because he was lucky. He worked hard to the bone, a new guy comes who knows the boss and instantly get's the supervisor position within two days. It literally upset every worker in the placement.
fluid relic
I've dumped a lot of jobs because of that, however. now I lack money, but at least I'm not doing something I wouldn't
hollow pivot
but thats standard practice anywhere. interview them also unless you broke and need the job
iron cave
Unless you hire people who don't have the skills but know the peeps.
plucky hatch
People I went to college with, some of them are directors at Ubi MTL now.
Friends promoting friends.
iron cave
Not saying it's SUPER common, but it's a thing.
muted lagoon
Corruption.👌
hollow pivot
in our company atleast 60% of the workforce of 100+ people were only hired cause they know people in it
plucky hatch
Human nature
fluid relic
ok, so. wrapping up the portfolio thing. for a mechanic designer, a playable demo with assorted explained mechanics would probably do?
I could use the whole explanation as a display of what I could do, like UI and stuff
iron cave
I guess director's don't much care anymore if you know how to do the job or not, so long you know them personally.
plucky hatch
There is a popular video right now on Facebook and Linkedin about the importance of developing a strong company culuture.
ut that's useless unless you fix the friends promoting friends problem.
iron cave
It sucks for people who WANT to work and have the skills to do it.
hollow pivot
look at epics showcase rooms. i would use something like that. little platforms demonstrating specific mechanics i made
iron cave
I think for me is to just put my head down and keep at it with my commissions, even if it's not much. Maybe one day someone will pop by and go "Hey, your stuff's good. Want to work for me." Yoink, I'll take it.
And even if it's not super great, jobs a job. It gives me more stuff under my CV belt and will make it look less empty.
fluid relic
hmmmmmm. well, the thing is, I'm not a legit programmer. I can end up making scripts, but I've not formally learned it or plan to do so. I loved UE4's blueprint systems because it's a logical system. I make scripts once in a while in different languages but, honestly, it's not my focus. that's why I've stated in my curriculum and pretty much everywhere else that I work exclusively with UE4
plucky hatch
is there such thing as a legit programmer? 😛
fluid relic
in that case, what do you recommend for a "blueprints showcase/portfolio"?
plucky hatch
XD
hollow pivot
ye legit programmers copy past from the interwebs in little snippets until they have a working app
fluid relic
I'm fast with blueprints, but really ineffective with , say, C++
that's what I do
but I'm bad at it
fluid relic
yes? I love visual scripting
iron cave
You research on Google how to make stuff via programming and then... Edit it in little bits and your done?
fluid relic
lmao
hollow pivot
😄
iron cave
Bro.
You. Pft, wah, WHAT?
I thought it was a pain staking, brain paining grind to program?
plucky hatch
Im of the opinion that everything is bad code, can be optimized. What matters is to get the thing to work, get it out there and if it works, then you can invest more into it.
iron cave
Like god damn, the scripts look like alien language to me.
plucky hatch
end users dont see the code
fluid relic
yeah. I mean I'm not fond of languages. not that I'm alien to them, but I don't feel motivated to work on it as most programmers are. however, I do love blueprints. I'm really efficient with it
iron cave
I tried programming a couple of times, and my brain is like "Nope, nope, can't read, nope, not that, can't do that, nope, got'a find it, staaap, you are killing me."
How do you even know where to begin and end? When ever I see people code it's like... Hackerman.
Literally just typing a essay on Notepad++ half the time when I watch my friend code, it's just like... Defeg?
fluid relic
I used to work close with an university. one of the best ones in Brazil. I dropped because of the funding and bureaucracy, basically. couldn't fit a career there. ain't for me
hollow pivot
if you can blueprint, coding becomes more understandable with time
iron cave
I can blueprint. Sorta.
hollow pivot
whats this formal education thing @plucky hatch
iron cave
Mostly from tutorials though... So, not so independent.
fluid relic
well, codes are basically more... mathematical?
hollow pivot
who hires formally educated people noawdays?
fluid relic
but all of them are logical. blueprints are just more pleasant in my opionion
I find it easier to SEE what I'm coding in a workflow
hollow pivot
country?
ye no. my mates got hired in EU with no formal education. but then again at our age we have 18 year experience
iron cave
That may depend on the country though.
And placement.
England has loads of uneducated workers in various fields.
Since they seem to prefer uneducated then... Educated.
Which is a little, odd?
hollow pivot
so what is considered formal education? udemy? University ?
iron cave
But I see why, who want's to pay more for a educated guy when you can pay less for a non-educated guy.
hollow pivot
SA is also uneducated but highly skilled
iron cave
THAT heavily depends on the profession.
iron cave
Not all courses in university actually are job worthy.
fluid relic
game industry here is pretty weak. mostly small indie companies
hollow pivot
not much of any paper is job worthy imo
fluid relic
it does
muted lagoon
But anyway, educated person would be more efficient in his time management and his work
iron cave
Example: My BA course for Games Design? Worthless for pretty much 80% of the jobs in the country unless it's games related.
hollow pivot
thats my fckup atm. senior at my field. dont have formal education. not entitled to become exec
fluid relic
people often asks why I didn't take a business or programming course when I talk about jobs
and I'm like... uhh... because I wanted to learn more about biology?
iron cave
I had to gain additional education and certs for retail just to be more hireable. Until I realized that I shouldn't have done that because shop owners don't want to spend extra money on educated folk.
hollow pivot
catch 22
iron cave
@fluid relic Same, I went into the Job Centre so I can survive a little longer.
Made fun of me for studying something that's super difficult and barely usefull anywhere else.
Self-esteem pretty much down the drain in seconds.
fluid relic
for me it's most likely 99% of the people I talk to
a culture thing, I guess
we have a specialist culture here
iron cave
My confidence literally got fragged as soon as they mocked the hell out of me, and aye, it is a bad job Center. Then again, it is their job to sit there and look pretty while you do 101% of the work.
fluid relic
you should do one thing forever. devote your all to that single thing
I work better with broader jobs. I've often taken leading and organizing jobs because of that
hollow pivot
fck this is getting morbid. questioning my life choices. how did i end up here
fluid relic
yep. in my case I did it for the knowledge, not for "working as a biomedical agent"
iron cave
@hollow pivot It's not AS bad as we make it, don't worry.
You just need to look at the options, even if it means doing a job you may not like for a bit just to help out.
Find something you can do in the mean time, and try to plan the days where you could spend time doing what you love, till the time comes of you being ready and potentially being offered something better.
fluid relic
I simply wanted to have a strong biological area understanding. it was worth, my whole world perspective changed. but then, who cares about knowledge when you need someone to put duct tapes on a pipe? you just want the person to do the job properly
that's one of the hardest parts. as an employee you are seen as a tool, an asset to be used. so anything that's not suited for the purpose will most of the time be ignored 🤔
hollow pivot
which language is future proof?
hollow pivot
lol
fluid relic
start with c++. switching languages are kinda easy, yeah
iron cave
He wouldn't have a problem.
iron cave
You could always expand to S&Box once it's up on Unreal, since they do C# or something.
So you got three, blueprint, C++ and C#.
fluid relic
although html/css is a specific application. C++ is broader anyway
plucky hatch
SQL
First appeared in 1974: 45 years ago
If something works. Don't worrry, it will be around for a long time. People say tech changes all the time, every month, every two years.
It's a joke.
hollow pivot
C# it is. i can start using it already at my job seeing as our devs are copying bad code from the interwebs
plucky hatch
Companies have been built on older tech and they are still using now because it works.
fluid relic
IMO if something may end up taking C++, it's called blueprints
plucky hatch
C++ will still be used 10 years from now
fluid relic
I wonder if epic games think about broadening it to a generic language instead of specifically for games. probably
well, he got the right job
a niche one, I guess
plucky hatch
C# will be used for another 10 years for sure
fluid relic
but then, niche jobs usually have a lifespan, once the demand has been supplied
fluid relic
later. thanks for the tips
plucky hatch
@plucky hatch yeah, I hate SQL. But it's essential
I've worked on some pretty advanced SQL stuff recently. Man, I had no idea SQL could get that complex
fluid relic
my lack of database learning is one of my biggest faults in programming
it feels really bad to learn it by myself. unlike blueprints for example
plucky hatch
when you get into triggers, stored procedures, functions, dynamic SQL... OMG... I wanted to die
fluid relic
lol
plucky hatch
SQL is alien to me
upper moat
Guess ill weigh in on this convo
fluid relic
for me SQL is like, something to store data. that's it
upper moat
A few comments ago, niche languages were mentioned
fluid relic
end of my knowledge
upper moat
this can be very profitable if you specialize in one
tons and tons of companies have antiquated systems
fluid relic
indeed
upper moat
and they focus $ on keeping it alive vs upgrading
fluid relic
I used MatLab on my lab
it can do a lot of stuff, but it's still... well, uhh
I'd rather use UE4 for what we were doing
upper moat
There are companies with apps built in powerbuilder
fluid relic
I was planning to, but I got out of it
upper moat
and they have tons of trouble finding people to work on it
fluid relic
yep
companies usually hire a guy 10 years ago to make an app
and then 10 years later they need to change something
and the guy isn't there anymore, so they have to find someone else that can do
fluid relic
I've bumped into that situation pretty much in every lab I knew in university as well. not just a company thing
upper moat
@woeful iron has a point, but if you are good are reading someone else's uncommented spaghetti you can still be ok
fluid relic
well, if you are literally mcgyver, you can do anything, no?
iron cave
You guys all talking about being able to fix codes regardless of it being a mess of strings and wires. And here I am sitting trying to decrypt it like some Egyptian sign language.
woeful iron
some code is best left untouched 😃
fluid relic
if it works, let it be
woeful iron
just ignore the issues, easy
fluid relic
if it doesn't, well, fuck
plucky hatch
Welcome to SQL
https://gdl.space/yebafuqari.sql
woeful iron
yeah tbh, if you don't get the basics from the start, maybe it's not something for you
it's a very specific way of thinking
iron cave
True.
I tried modelling on my first run, I ended up modelling stuff pretty quickly during my assignments, but I don't find that necessarily a good attribute. But eventually spread to Environments and stuff, so I am sticking around there alongside music lo.
Aye.
iron cave
With blueprints my first attempt was to make a RTS. Funnily enough, the furthest I got was making the camera rotate and have a working menu to select stuff.
But never got further then that really.
fluid relic
RTS is actually kinda annoying to program, surprisingly
fluid relic
LOL
I don't remember exactly why, but I stumbled into RTS stuff and I was like......... uhhhhhhhhhh... no
iron cave
I did. I made one back on Gamemaker during my first study assignment. It went... Quite fine?
woeful iron
We're just finishing up an rts made in unity, and it's so much technical intricacy
iron cave
tried to make the next big Red Alert lol.
fluid relic
blueprint master race
I couldn't have any progress with Unity at all
but then I don't know how to code properly with C++ or anything
woeful iron
c++ has been my secret baby for many years
plucky hatch
@plucky hatch
I started to get used to it after a month, but man... I still don't fully understand it
My lead was really comfortable with SQL.
fluid relic
with blueprints™ I could do it
iron cave
We're all newbs.
plucky hatch
I had to level up fast
iron cave
In our own special way.
plucky hatch
XD
plucky hatch
@plucky hatch the worst part is I had to go through SQL, MySQL and then PL/SQL they are all different
nose bleeding **
fluid relic
ok, lot of information and I'm a bit light headed right now. once again, what should a mechanic designer do for his portfolio, with no published works? pictures? a demo showcasing stuff?
an example would be nice to see
iron cave
Videos tend to do the job, showcasing what's working, how it's happening, where, so forth.
not super knowledgeable with code.
plucky hatch
But programming has been challenging my views recently. Is someone less intelligent or simply less experienced?
iron cave
Hmm... Less experienced sounds more logical.
Sometimes people with less intelligence can do... Wonders with some work.
plucky hatch
What I noticed is if Im more into think/creative mode, my memory suffers. but to do certain job, you need more memory to deal with a wide variety of layers that work all together.
Apparently, our ancestors had less brain power, greater memory. Our reasoning today for them would be like a super power.
Food for thoughts
west sonnet
We also have less brain volume than them 😜
iron cave
You are not a robot, unless you are Skynet and can manually upgrade yourself.
Wait...
Are you Skynet?
plucky hatch
"I'm from the future"
jk
But one day one of you might talk to someone who came from the past. That would be very disturbing...
iron cave
My future self may pop up and I might ask "Do we have flying cars yet?" Only to find out we have managed to create hovering fidget spinners.
plucky hatch
I feel reassured now 😛
was going to say, we should really extend the duration of this counselling
west sonnet
It’s normal and very common for such extremes to be expressed in males.
plucky hatch
@plucky hatch psychology?
mystic hull
Im starting to feel i learn a bit too fast o_o
@plucky hatch You're an artist, yeah?
mystic hull
Probably why the programming aspect is a pain 😛
I've tried doing art, didnt get too far ;-;
iron cave
Hey if you learn fast, that's not bad.
mystic hull
Yeah tbh I treat it as my most valuable asset
iron cave
Although thorough research is good too. For me learning takes longer, but that's cause my Dyslexia is mostly the cause of it.
mystic hull
more so than any technical skills I have, then again it's not something tangible so it doesnt help much with interviews 😄
Nah im pretty much on steroids during learning sessions
Had to get rid of a lota bad habits though
Probably goes to what boban was talking about, you train your brain to do certain things, it only gets better at them 🤷🏻
west sonnet
It is if you demonstrate it. “Here’s x projects I’ve made in x month. All were the result of self teaching and research. [insert story of the journey]”
wide jetty
not trying to throw any hate but@plucky hatch is a fake level designer he just takes pictures off the internet and calls it his
iron cave
What?
vapid lance
drama incoming
iron cave
Someone's stealing work?
west sonnet
That seems... random and unnecessary
iron cave
Back on track: Everyone's different with how they gain knowledge, for me it's to continuesly work and try and mess around on a software to learn stuff, even when i try to watch tutorials, my brain really can't handle it that much. ( Not calling myself lazy). I just prefer to work with it to get used to it and experience new things, or work with a team who can show me.
mystic hull
@west sonnet That sounds reasonable actually 😛 Thanks!
wide jetty
lol, no he was working for me sorry but he lied and stole work from some people on artstation and called it his sorry for this just warning you
this is necessary
iron cave
I’d ask the same but I wouldn’t know, although I’d easily recognise my work if he stole it heh. Not that it’s worth stealing anyway.
muted lagoon
Tutorials never helped me to get understanding how to create something cool instead of just copying tutorial, so the clear experience might be the answer
tight oasis
Usually info is just passed down, from the application dev to other artists, they make the tuts and people just copy how original artists create their pieces.
Learning is slow for anything really. Copying other artists is a fast way to learn.
iron cave
Aye, but it’s good to mess around too to find your own way on things. Aha.
wide jetty
No like he stole someone else’s not mine but some ransoms gut on art station
muted lagoon
Family drama 😂
wide jetty
Lol
shy pelican
Omg -- event binding; I 'get it' then I 'drop it' then I 'pick it up again' only to 'forget it'. haha.
indigo hamlet
Does posting in Looking for Work, whether here on discord or on the unreal forums actually return any leads?
west sonnet
Try it for yourself. No harm in it eh?
indigo hamlet
The reason I'm asking is so if i know that it's my post that doesn't get attention or if it's common
Does posting in Looking for Work, whether here on discord or on the unreal forums actually return any leads?
west surge
well I can prove a point for you, I work for an arch vis company looking in to Realtime and if you're around Cheshire in the UK then there's a chance you are in luck
so yes, posting will do more than nothing
iron cave
Posting won't harm. If you happen to be lucky and get a lead but you may need to relocate, those tend to be some concerns.
I haven't even posted myself on that looking for work bit yet till I am done with this commission, but I am not too sure how I could ask to look for work when I am not too sure if I aim for the paid way.
(Pretty stupid but eh.)
crimson lily
im a graphics designer thats my freelance career
fathom oasis
Has anyone been in QA here?
fathom oasis
Looking at QA jobs that pay as much/more than my current recruiting job lol
specifically, Epic has a QA Analyst position that appears to be entry level?
plucky hatch
Depends on where the jobs are. Around here, it was minimum salary. And 16$ per hour for leads (Canadian Dollars).
Some company might pay more.
Some new job positions could pay more. QA Engineer, QA analyst maybe, etc
fathom oasis
yea im less interested in making minimum wage, im above that in current pay. Also trying to not go into a sweatshop
did you do QA analyst stuff?
from the description it looks like testing
plucky hatch
No. I did Microsoft Compliance with a little bit of functionality and compatiblity here and there.
on... Batman Arkham Knight, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Magic Duels, Life is Strange, Tales of the Borderlands, Game of Thrones - Telltale, Deadliest Warrior: Battlegrounds, Kerbal Space Program, League of Legends and many others.
I worked in QA only for 2 years.
Honored my contract.
Then I left.
It's not a job that I would recommend.
Unless, you are really really curious like I was (lmao).
fathom oasis
nice, was it a good learning opportunity? was it enjoyable? I'm not looking at QA long-term but I do want to work in games. Mostly on the audio side and tools
plucky hatch
It's a good to know, personally.
Especially if you are either a designer or a game programmer.
That knowledge is complementary.
fathom oasis
well thats theoretically good for where I want to end up
plucky hatch
Well, you could get away by just programming games or being a game designer.
But i always wondered what those Microsoft certifications were about, now I know.
fathom oasis
yea the goal would be to hop into a sound design or technical sound design position eventually(likely not at the same company)
plucky hatch
Why do games have a title screen? How are games supposed to handle switching between different profiles? How are games supposed to handle controller disconnections and error messages? Etc.
Wouldn't you just need a SoundCloud page for that?
a portfolio?
A few years ago, I wanted to hire a music composer. We got to talk, she told me her rate. I really liked her SoundCloud page. We were supposed to meet and then she got a full-time job in the industry. Her portfolio was just a SoundCloud page. That's it.
fathom oasis
yea, i have and am updating those constantly but im fresh out of college and still junior level so its fairly competitive and theres piles of other people who can do sound design. The point of the QA switch would be to have more experience with game engines and be around developers more than I am able to now
plucky hatch
I think you should try to contact industry vets in Sound Design and Music Composition.
I think you would just be wasting your time doing QA
You don't have to look for big AAA companies. There are smaller companies that make tons of mobile games and they need sound designers/music composers.
fathom oasis
Yea, so currently I am doing the indie thing in my free time with contract work. I contracted as an AI programmer, composer, sound designer, game designer and am making my own game and have some larger projects with a team I do jams with. The QA would replace my recruiting day job
fathom oasis
lol cz no one wants a programmer with a music degree and 1 year of experience
plucky hatch
Programmer/Musician, isn't it a classic?
fathom oasis
That's what I thought
plucky hatch
Have you never read about this lol?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/anthony-hughes/composing-code-why-musici_b_10714288.html
fathom oasis
I have, i should start putting it at the top of my resume lol
plucky hatch
lmao
When I read about that, I was in college studying programming. My teacher has been programming for 20+ year and I wanted to ask him about it, if he saw the correlation between the two. But before I asked him, I searched for his profile on Facebook just to realize... he was a guitarist/singer for a band that does Cover songs. I had no idea...
🍿 🥓 maybe it's true afterall...
fathom oasis
a lot of the musicians I grew up with work in web development now lol
fathom oasis
yea those fresh out of CS degree salaries on the west coast in the US are big
plucky hatch
Here, companies everywhere are in desperate need of programmers
fathom oasis
A lot of it is javascript though isnt it?
C++ is still sought after but it seems everyone wants Python, Ruby, and JS
fathom oasis
thats what Node.js is for lol