@flat gazelle what are the biggest challenges you face in the day to day aspect?
#career-chat
dire furnace
flat gazelle
Time management. Deciding when to create content, when to schedule, when to coach and so on.
dire furnace
@flat gazelle would you recommend relocating if theres not much employment in a sector that has only a handful of studios?
flat gazelle
yes
I have relocated for every single job I've had
Even though two have been in the same city.... I moved away in between
dire furnace
how hard is it to relocate? the closest to my sector would be Vancouver, coming from Alberta
flat gazelle
I've been lucky enough to get relocated
I've only had to do it myself once
That helps a lot
digital gate
I'd try to have something ready if not being relocated. If you have some cushion though, go wild.
flat gazelle
The hard part is convincing the partner/family that it's time to go again
Yeah, get a job first, then relocate or ask them to relocate you
dire furnace
Single life so i suppose it shouldnt be hard for me
flat gazelle
Yeah I was single when I moved abroad. Much easier
digital gate
As for how hard it'd be to get an offer incl relocation?
I've got 3-4 yrs, only 1.5 with a studio remotely, and a port I could massively improve and for some reason people have taken a sudden interest in relocating me.
dire furnace
I have a Car, since im planning to move, should i get rid of it?
flat gazelle
I was relocated for my first job.... Granted, this was many years ago 😛
digital gate
Been interviewing for quite a while, but basically anytime I asked reloc was part of it -- barring facebook apparently.
lilac walrus
I've relocated for practically every job I've had, and yeah, what you get for relocation will depend on the company
sometimes it's generous, othertimes, not so much
never hurts to ask though
dusty jolt
also the fact that blueprint has a VM overhead
also very late reply
i didnt see rest of the convo gg
dire furnace
I dont think companies would pay me to relocate, id pay out of pocket for sure, No real experience other then School
dense needle
If you say you'll pay out of pocket with a big company. That will still work against you. They will still assume you need some financial help and default to not hiring you. If you say you are local you have higher odds with no experience.
dire furnace
Yeah i agree with you, its kind of hard where i am, only a handful of studios, 5 to count where i live. Cant even get an entry level QA position. I think Moving is my best option.
harsh brook
you can still get a job without being local, Iv faced barriers but that isn't one of them personally at least
biggest thing is show worthy stuff its a cascading effect after that
dense needle
@dire furnace Montreal, LA, San Fran, Austin, Seattle are prime locations. Cary NC for Unreal, and NYC for some randos like Nintendo of America.
You can always go indie. They are global. Tons of positions. But... It's like modern day gold mining. Most stakes have null.
keen aurora
NYC doesn't really have any gamedev, I wouldn't look there. Boston or Baltimore would be better. Montreal and Cary are the Eastern NA hotspots
dire furnace
Vancouver?
dense needle
@keen aurora Still a great way to break into Nintendo and other studios. They have offices there.
Vancouver? They are insanely expensive!
keen aurora
@dense needle They do not have offices there. NoA's offices are in Redmond WA
And/or LA?
I forget - it's definitely not NYC
dense needle
Yes, and they also hold events there. You can meet Reggie in person. As I said. Great way to break in.
dense needle
I've seen cooks get hired by Sierra. You work for the company in one way or another. You can climb that ladder.
keen aurora
I mean - you're right, they do have events there, you could meet Reggie, but if you're looking for a job at Nintendo - that is not the place you want to be unless you want to work in merchandise.
dense needle
Let me put it this way. That's a lot better than a internet job application.
keen aurora
I would greatly disagree, from experience.
In that specific instance - usually meeting people in person is better you are correct.
but doing so at most Nintendo NYC events - not really.
dense needle
Nintendo has hired warehouse and event coordinators to their HQ in the past. Ask Dan Owsen.
keen aurora
Sure.
dense needle
Just saying from someone who has done the front and back door. Back doors are the better choice.
That sounded wrong lol.
keen aurora
I got what you're saying - that's what I've done too
dense needle
(:
keen aurora
But I just don't agree that going to events at the Nintendo store is the best place to put it
And we definitely don't have a Nintendo Office in NYC.
dense needle
I count any building that operates as platform for the company as an office. In this case Nintendo uses it for Event, or that area to help launch events like their consoles.
plucky hatch
@dire furnace
Game companies try to snatch senior employees from other companies to fill their job positions. If you are unemployed looking for work, you might get ignored unless you really stand out or have been referred.
I've just applied at a game company for a designer position on a multiplayer game and they just hired someone I know is far less qualified for that role. It's not even his type of games. I've applied for a level designer and game designer role at X game company, got denied for both with 4+ years of XP. My friend at Ubi who holds a senior role never applied and received an offer for that role.
I'm just sitting there with my popcorn. 🍿
barren lotus
For qualifications some places might be erring on cultural fit more than XP
plucky hatch
If you ask me, it's just totally random.
One guy prefers people with University degrees.
Another values more personality traits.
Another prefers people with a vast amount of experience on similar games.
Another guy wants to work with some he worked with before or someone referred by peers.
Etc.
Like it depends who the recruiter is, who that person works for (art director, design director, lead level designer, etc.) and then they have their own preferences (project, personality, qualifications, etc.).
It's a mess.
Basically, just keep applying, networking, etc. At some point you'll get a job.
I've seen people fully qualified, take a break and then had a hard time to find a new job again.
If you are currently working at X company, they see you as more valuable and current.
--
Any programmers here?
How do you check if a candidate is a qualified programmer?
Do you expect code samples? A portfolio? Tricky interview questions?
digital gate
Have em play shenzen.
harsh brook
Resume, test on a platform like hacker rank, technical interview (cover topics related to the position and usually big O), on site test, then personality assessment. That’s been the usual cycle for me at least but I did programming for mobile apps and IT never attempted to go games cause I still struggle with C++ .
shadow kelp
CV first. Phone interview technical questions to filter out the people that don't know C++. Time-limited programming problem. On-site to grill em on their solution and assess them in person. Offer.
might skip some of them for very experienced candidates with good references
plucky hatch
👍 sounds good
lilac walrus
For programmers it depends on position, but yeah, CV first, quick phone interview, likely a quick implementation test, then an on-site interview
as for what you're looking for in the individual, it can vary significantly
last gameplay / programmer type person I hired didn't even play games, I hired them because they were making the kind of things game programmers make, but in their spare time because they thought it was cool
remote saffron
what kind of things? 🤔
signal thorn
Have em play shenzen. Heh, it is not even a joke. I've seen one company recruting event where you have to solve puzzles in Spacechem.
stone jolt
yo so im finishing up school and im wondering if i should go to uni or just keep working on my game
manic hawk
@stone jolt you want the best answer?
i'd say probably both
but that's just me
ideally cycling things you're learning at school and making use of them somehow with your game
west sonnet
If the university of your country is free or reasonably priced, go for it. If you're going in as an artist, don't bother (I cannot speak for programmers). It's generally a waste of time and money. That being said, don't bank on your game being profitable. A financially successful game is an exception, not the rule.
stone jolt
wish it was free, its like 30 grand au
and im a programmer
i think it would be a waste off my time because i can basically do every thing now
and i never really plan to work for another company
spare jasper
If you had a considerable delay between end of university, and first job, how would you spin that through your resume?
west sonnet
Self employment
spare jasper
So self employment/personal projects would be acceptable?
keen aurora
@spare jasper If you have down time between employment and Uni you should definitely have personal projects of some sort to show that you're staying active in your field + helps bolster resume/portfolio
lilac walrus
heck, not just in your down time, hehe
keen aurora
@stone jolt I agree with Trefex that you should do both. Even if you don't go to school for programming. If you're not sure you can make it in game development, a degree can be a very good safety net.
Yea, I mean, if you can do personal projects - do them. Some companies are weird with that though.
uneven leaf
Hey there!
I'm a fresh college graduate that received a Certificate in Game Development. However, this is at a jr. college, and we worked solely in UE4 using visual scripting. I haven't programmed in years, and that was in Python. I am not familiar with C++, or how the language works (Python compiles at runtime, and C++ doesn't?)
So, basically, I am trying to find out what skills I need to have to get a job at a studio (specifically Blizzard Entertainment), as a level designer. I am looking for more of the visual artist positions, versus programming or modeling.
Any advice or insight would be appreciated!
Thanks!
-Hope
kindred mason
Since you already know where you want to go to, it's simple
Look at their job posts
Pick one, see what they want
Here, I'll make it easier on you
Requirements
3-5 years of Professional experience of design systems to build levels in 3D space, and how to incorporate game-play demands into their designs
We use our own propriety software for level design, but experience with other world building and terrain sculpting engines is comparable (Unreal Engine etc)
Experience with visual world building and world development in a professional setting
Strong artistic skills and a good sense of aesthetic principles
Good written and verbal communications skills
Able to work creatively in a demanding team environment
Absolute passion for playing and making computer games
Pluses
Non-design development experience (artist, programmer, etc.)
Bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience
Required Application Materials
Resume which must include:
A link to your portfolio so that we can see examples of your work
Cover Letter which must include:
Why you are interested in working at Blizzard
Your experience and relationship with World of Warcraft
What games you are currently playing```For LD pos
uneven leaf
I look at them regularly. Almost all positions are looking for previous AAA titles in their portfolio. I'm looking to develop those skills in an indie setting.
kindred mason
strange
I must have missed the "AAA req" in that job post
If you want to build experience, you build it by doing stuff
Game Jams, join royalty projects, do solo projects
If you want to be an LD, just build LEVELS
Show your process
Explain why, etc
uneven leaf
I am working on an RPG, however I am the sole contributor, so development is pretty slow, as I'm teaching myself as I go.
kindred mason
K, well, RPGs need levels/zones
narrow vigil
I would suggest that you try for internships
kindred mason
Top down/iso camera angles
circle stuff
Explain why you built the zones like that
narrow vigil
They generally require less experience
kindred mason
Ah, yeah, missed "Interships"
They definitely have them
Problem is..
most are for "in-school"
Blizz doesn't seem to accept grads
uneven leaf
Are they focusing on just the visual aspects (when looking at my work), or are they looking for programming aspects as well?
kindred mason
Visual?
No one cares about your art skills for LD
(not any serious studio anyway)
LD != environment artist
Even if people want both as one
uneven leaf
...is a level designer not the person who sculpts terrain and places meshes to create towns, zones, etc.?
kindred mason
😃
If you want to combo-wombo
Be my guest
Sure will open up more doors for you
uneven leaf
I'm sorry, I don't understand the difference.
urban stump
Level designer is gameplay, environment artist is art.
urban stump
The look of the terrain and the set dressing of the level is not a level designer role, it's an environment artist role.
kindred mason
Read this @uneven leaf https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131736/beginning_level_design_part_1.php
urban stump
The level designer is how the level actually plays on a gameplay level.
kindred mason
Also a bit of story telling sometimes
This one is okay
I haven't read it all the way (that's your job), but I don't like how he starts with I place walls..
as long as those are just blocks (for blockouts)
uneven leaf
Ah, I understand. Thanks for the clarification
@kindred mason That was a good article, really insightful.
Thanks a lot for all the advice.
violet coral
in regards to requiring AAA game experience, i think that just has no meaning any more. almost every job posting i've ever seen has the studio claiming to be working on a AAA product and almost none of the projects end up being what i would consider to be AAA. that said if a studio is looking for AAA development experience for applying you can say you have it if you've worked at any studio claiming that's what they do. the whole thing has gotten rather silly IMO.
flat gazelle
Can't say I agree with that
dense isle
Yep, me too
Actually , I had a lot of propositions just because I have an experience of working with AAA company. Often it is not about the quality of the game , but the experience of working inside AAA studio
flat gazelle
I'm happy to hire a junior without experience. I can take an intermediate with any type of production experience. But if I'm working on a triple A game, I need seniors who have the right experience to lead the team. They need to know how to handle the team dynamic that comes with big teams and games. They need to know the different stages of a project and how to respond to critical situations.
kindred mason
Hmmm, you are talking about different things though
No one said anything about leading
flat gazelle
My response was directly to mmbalto
violet coral
@flat gazelle my point is that the best engineers i have worked with have shipped a game that ended up not being the AAA hit that was promised and they did amazing work.
kindred mason
He simply stated job posts requiring AAA experience
Which has nothing to do with leading troops
And I agree with him to a certain point
violet coral
and i have seen a lot of engineers get passed on at the resume stage simply because they didn't work on Halo, GTA, etc.
ashen lynx
Interpretation of AAA is broad enough to swing it both ways.
flat gazelle
Yes, and at least when I post jobs I don't have AAA requirements for anything below senior. Seniors are required to lead and coach
kindred mason
I have had plenty of opportunities to work at a few AAA companies without having any AAA studio experience.
violet coral
but again, my point is that most studios will tell you they're working on a AAA game.
but they're not really
it just sounds good.
kindred mason
Hmm, again, I personally can attest to being able to work at any number of AAA studios with my current experience without ever stepping foot in a AAA studio
flat gazelle
But that won't hold water in an interview. At least not if I'm in it 😛
kindred mason
And there are plenty of others here that could do the same
flat gazelle
Yes but I wouldn't hire you as a senior
kindred mason
That's not even what was being asked or stated
So, k
But, while you wouldn't. Plenty of others would.
Even lead.
flat gazelle
Reread my response. I state that I personally, don't require AAA experience for anything below senior. Intermediates and juniors are fine without it.
kindred mason
So, again, that's why you have to take everything stated here with a grain of salt
One person's opinions or experiences does not translate everywhere
flat gazelle
I agree
violet coral
totally
kindred mason
If you have the chops, and can get an interview, you are already one foot in TBH
violet coral
i'm just expressing my opinion too.
flat gazelle
I just wanted to share my view as I have experience of both working and hiring for AAA projects.
ashen lynx
@flat gazelle You must be a bit of an exception here. Slapping TrippleA experience requirement for a junior env artist in an establishment that is way below of current AAA mark seems more often.
violet coral
ya, @flat gazelle i get where you're coming from. i have hired several people who worked on AAA games and those who haven't... the main difference i see that the people who worked on the AAA games got lucky that the game ended up being AAA in the end. the worst employee i've had to date worked at Valve and Epic. but that didn't translate to their actual skill set.
flat gazelle
@ashen lynx That may be the case, but it also sounds dodgy
flat gazelle
It is
kindred mason
Well... you can't make a "non-AAA game" into a "AAA game"
flat gazelle
And oh so important
kindred mason
It's either AAA to start with or not
flat gazelle
Yes
violet coral
yeah, but i've worked on AAA games that turned into ZZZ games due to bad marketing, last minute (bad) decisions made by the publishers, etc.
flat gazelle
Hehe, we are getting close to the definition of what AAA is now and that's a dangerous topic 😛
violet coral
heheh yeah, and that goes back to what i was originally trying to say about the "what does AAA even mean anymore"? 😃
also "hi!" --> i actually have time to read and chat now that i'm rebuilding my solution. 😄
flat gazelle
The thing I look for when I slap that requirement on an ad is what I stated above. Those things are not usually found in a pretend AAA.
Failed projects, sure!
But the process was there so the experience is genuine
violet coral
for sure. and that's safe in that it avoids a good number of false-positive results because they never get a foot in the door in the first place.
flat gazelle
Yes
violet coral
i personally have found ways to find the diamonds in the rough because of my own experiences. i have some things i look for besides the actual games they worked on now and that's helped me find some killer senior and lead-level engineers.
so i think you're solid in your thinking as that's what much of the games industry does.
i do it too, but i've found ways of increasing my pool of potential hires by looking past the actual studios and games they've worked on.
flat gazelle
Too be fair, it's all moot in the end. That's what the probation period is for anyway 😄
violet coral
it's an odd thing with careers, though... just how much depends on where you worked rather than other factors. that's not just games either. i always encourage people to take a big-name studio job because frankly, it makes them more desirable.
flat gazelle
Yeah, a hit or two behind you doesn't hurt.
violet coral
it definitely helps.
and man... if you can couple a hit or two along with having a solid network you're golden.
"solid network" as in "don't burn your bridges!" heh
violet coral
i need more thumbs so they can all point up
flat gazelle
Disagree and be angry all you want, but allways stay professional
violet coral
really, this chat room should just have one message in it: "don't burn your bridges"
best career advice you can give ANYBODY in the games industry
man, the number of people who are on "virtual blacklists" these days...
spare jasper
This may be too much of a general question but outside of the obvious ways to initiate career suicide are there any faux pas within the industry to be wary of?
flat gazelle
Don't break rule 1 - 3 of the industry and you'll be good
spare jasper
For example, if I was hired as a junior LD or Environment Artist, how much leeway do I get for a level/environment during the 'probationary period'. Can I nudge or push a design idea (that fits within the scope of the project such as offering a tweak or alternate design of an encounter) or should I be more focused on getting assignments done?
What's rule 1-3?
flat gazelle
- Don't be a dick.
- See rule 1.
- See rule 2.
You're a part of the team, of course you can have ideas!
Bring them up and discuss them with the team
Don't go rogue and just do it
spare jasper
Seems reasonable!
digital gate
I dont know, somehow making everybody hate working with me seems logical 
flat gazelle
Well, that approach isn't as uncommon as you might think! 😄
sudden island
it can sometimes go deeper than that, depending on location there can be politics involved
plucky hatch
You can burn bridges unvoluntarily. Life is short, just move forward.
Write ''stay professional'' all you want, this industry is juvenile and not so dissimilar from high school in many ways.
And you'll find out that people have very different ideas on what it means to actually be professional.
Some people are more focused on the actual relationship at work and getting stuff done and doing your homeworks, taking time to ply certain games to stay current or trying new softwares. Some people are anal about deadlines, others about when you come in and get out. Others will find it unprofessional if you carry headphones 24/7, might even say it looks anti-social.
I've worked with a lead artist who, because he was working under pressure and was basically doing all the heavy work for the art team didn't mind being rude and using words like "fuck off, come back later". But can you blame him? He was a one man team. And he was getting the job done like a boss.
karmic kayak
@flat gazelle And never forget infamous Rule #4 which goes like this: If Rules #1 - #3 doesn't apply ... see Rule #1. hehe
sudden island
yeah, so the main big thing is dont be a bigot
dont attack anyone in a direct personal manner, make sure criticism is very much aimed towards fixing the problem not making someone look bad
also, unless you are warning someone of some bad behavior from a developer, dont shit talk other developers with people who are not your most trusted friends
it will spread
lilac walrus
Don't go rogue and just do it
I disagree with that - but do it in your own time
many a feature has made it into a game because someone built it, because they thought it was cool
flat gazelle
Sure! What I meant by rogue was instead of the actual assignment.
hybrid phoenix
Your actual job does need to get done, of course 😛
solemn arch
I just scored an interview with a company for which I personally do not play their game (it's a Free To Play game). How should I act relating to that to not tank my chances?
west sonnet
Always always research the studio.
hybrid phoenix
Having played a game often isn't a necessity from what I've heard, if you're good at your job you're good at your job
west sonnet
You don’t need to be a gushing fan but you do need to show that you put effort into understanding the studio’s work
hybrid phoenix
Make sure you know what they do and why/how they do it
Show that you've put in some effort
harsh brook
Usually I hear the opposite to be honest. Had multiple companies ask me what I actually like when I brought up one of their titles.
hybrid phoenix
It also very heavily depends on the studio and culture
harsh brook
Yup MOBA companies definitely care ime
I mean a lot of those ask for your gamer tag when you apply lol
plucky hatch
Depends on the studio and who works there.
I don't know where Gameloft is at now that it has been purchased by another company.
But many of the employees there were console players making mobile games.
Aspiring AAA devs working on mobile games.
Since Gameloft was a good way to enter the industry
I wasnt expected to play mobile games when I got my first job there.
They were just happy I wanted to work there lmao...
solemn arch
@plucky hatch , yeah, that is a hard limit for me. At least Gameloft is not making cash grab games, they do make decent games.
solemn arch
What I mean is their games are not full on "if you want to do anything, pay" like some other predatorial companies
plucky hatch
I left in 2012 when they went hard on hiring economy designers, gambling tactics, etc
As a designer, just not my thing.
As an artist however, it's an excellent place to work at to get XP
solemn arch
I feel you. My limit is not going into predatorial studios (whether through their monetary systems or through addictive tactics, like gambling addiction)
plucky hatch
I was just listening to a podcast this week and they vets were saying Gameloft was basically a gold mine for artists.
to find talent
Because those guys have to deal with technical limitations, etc
And work hard on their portfolio to get out of there and work in AAA
But graphics are getting better, so now the discussion i think changed a bit
what was true in 2015 might not apply anymore
honest tartan
Does anyone have a good template for a indie game business plan? or maybe a good template for business plan in general? Preferably google docs^^
karmic kayak
🤔
regal swallow
So, guys and gals, I need some career advice pls? I'm currently learning UE4, creating an environment, blueprints etc, and am really enjoying it. Now, let's say I want to pursue this path as a career (environment artist seems a logical path), what are the prospects like currently? Are there a reasonable amount of positions in the industry? Do I need to be worried that I'll learn this stuff, to industry standard and not be able to find a job? Generally not sure, and very interested in people's opinions pls .
urban stump
I'm going to tell you something that an old teacher told me once. The industry is full. If you get a job, you're taking it from someone that didn't want it as badly. If you want to make it, you need to be able to compete with people that are already working and be better than them. It's not easy, and will take a lot of effort and time on your part.
There are more people wanting to get into the industry than there are jobs. That's just reality. Not everyone can or will make it.
And even if you do get a job, your entire career you'll need to push yourself to improve or you'll be replaced by someone that wants it more.
regal swallow
Thanks @urban stump. That's some wise words. Definitely something to be wary of. If I'm gonna do this then I've really got to push myself, harder than ever before.
Just got to make sure I stay focused and continue learning. It's early days anyway for me, and I've a long way to go, but positive to know that if I do make it then it'll be because I worked my damn ass off.
urban stump
You need to treat learning like a full time job, 50-60 hours of investment a week (worthwhile investment, not floundering and not pushing yourself), and even then it'll take years to get good enough to do what you probably are setting out to do.
sour mist
You said you are interested in opinions so here is mine:
- You need luck.
- You need to be good at what you are doing and constantly improve.
- Keep looking for offers, even if you are already working on something. Look remotely too not only local.
But that's just my opinion, I don't have any experience with actually getting hired for stuff like this lol, I do indie development for $$
urban stump
If you want to go down this career path, you can do it, just be fully aware of what it'll cost you. Not just in terms of testing your dedication and time, but what you'll likely need to sacrifice in your life to make it work. It's a long road, but if you push yourself enough, you -will- eventually do it.
regal swallow
Thanks guys. Gotta figure out to fit it all in with other full-time job, family and commitments.... 🤔 And whether that's even feasible.
Might be that I've left it too late, and maybe just indie Dev as a side prospect might be as far as it can realistically go. Then if I create the best game ever then I can retire early or leave my current job at least.
urban stump
I know someone that got into 3d art in her 40s and still made it a job. It's possible. It's just hard.
And don't bank on an indie game making you a sustainable income, most indie games fail in obscurity
sour mist
@urban stump Why do you think indie games fail?
I mean I know it's how it is, just why do you think it happens
I'm wondering 
urban stump
Because over 60 come out a day on Steam alone and the consumer can't possibly keep up
steel creek
lack of experience building product and running a business
urban stump
The only successful indie games are either viral hits that can't be replicated easily, or just have good marketing to get the word out before launch
sour mist
I mean, most indie games released on Steam aren't that good though (or very minimal)
lilac walrus
most of them are not successful, because A) they're not very good, and B) they're not marketed
steel creek
Also, steam isnt the end of the universe. Pretty sure we did this prior to and in parallel to, stream
sic: stardock e.g.
sour mist
What do you think the best way to market is? Pay for ads on social websites / content creators?
steel creek
That is going to be incumbent on your business model
again, most fail because they dont know how to A) make product b) do business
flat gazelle
Marketing is a full career path in itself and not something you'll pick up on a discord 😄
sour mist
steel creek
If it was, everyone would be doing it
this is why businesses fail
"hey random person, how do I business?"
gg
flat gazelle
Look at AAA as an extreme example. The marketing budget are sometimes twice the development budget.
sour mist
I want to know what they use the money to market tho, that;s what I'm not sure of
sour mist
Looking ty
fickle hatch
@urban stump interesting point about industry being full, that frustrates me a ton since many industries are shrinking right now
It’s a cyclic thing and we are in the worst part of it
Just wait 30-40 years and if we don’t die, there will once again be more open positions than people xD
lilac walrus
I don't forsee there being more open positions than people for most junior positions any time soon - that's driven by skill shortages
Programmers being exempt
there has long been a shortage of programmers
honest cipher
good programmers
lilac walrus
not even good, capable
honest cipher
turns out finding good programmers is stupidly hard. So they are allways in demand
turns out not even a CS degree guarantees you are half-decent at programming
lilac walrus
most graduates are well below the level they need to be to work in games
yup
Software Engineering students are usually better suited than CS
since games tend to lean fairly heavily on the engineering side of things
vivid pivot
How would you differentiate between Software Engineering and CS students? Did a CS bachelor and Software Engineering master myself
lilac walrus
well, they're different degrees, one is science orientated the other engineering
they tend to lean towards different practical applications
though obviously there is a lot of cross-over
most CS students don't spend a lot of time worrying about methodology and planning, at least not in any depth
vivid pivot
Ah like that. I think the naming of the degrees aren't really globally aligned 😛
lilac walrus
they never are, but you'd hope that 'Computer Science' leans towards 'Computer Science' etc
but then just look at the absolute shit-show that is a "Game Design" degree
most of which spend very little time on the topic, and more time farting about with 3d art, audio, etc
vivid pivot
😂
lilac walrus
for the longest time CVs with game design degrees went in the special under-desk filing cabinet
I'm still wary of them, haha
remote saffron
hmm, my degree is special and it was something between computer science and software engineeer stuff
cause we have to do everything differently
I just called it computer science in english before 🤔
that might have been a mistake 😂
it is called "informatic engineer" in my language 🤦
lilac walrus
that's a different field again
but it's closer to software engineering, hehe
Informatics is basically 'IT', so 'Informatic Engineering' would be engineering orientated with a focus on IT
usually a little bit or programming, some software engineering stuff, but maybe also CAD orientation etc
maybe things like information modelling and whatever else
remote saffron
maybe it is actually Computer engineering 🤔
lilac walrus
practical stuff like cryptology
remote saffron
but we don't have an official english name
in different official sources different name is used
just wth
lilac walrus
yeah, computer engineering is hardware orientated
remote saffron
so next time they ask what degree I have I'll just say i have no idea, sry 😂
lilac walrus
hahaha
remote saffron
we learnt hardware stuff but not as much as I would assume this computer engineering implies
I think this is like this because the university had electronics engineering and when software engineering became a thing they wanted to do something which is closer to electronics engineering so the students of both can study some more stuff together 🙄
honest cipher
hardware was the coolest stuff i learnt at university
programming was outdated whack, and theory was too theoretical and whack too
tons of cool theory things arent tought
remote saffron
for me hardware was cool, math was okay but could have been more and better, programming was okayish, software design was a bad joke
outdated shit systems explained in a terrible way with slides nobody could understand anything from
honest cipher
software design was also a huge joke where i was
remote saffron
seriously if the prof just comes in and says here is a cool site read it:
http://www.gameprogrammingpatterns.com/
that would have been better than everything they tried to teach in 2 semesters 🤦
honest cipher
we did programming pattenrs. AWFUL class
patterns are not tools
patterns are mostly a way for programmers to identify common software design
i remember when i read that book, and literally half of the stuff is stuff i was already doing
but in this class, patterns were tought as tools
which is a huuuuuuge mistake
hammer looking for a nail. Easiest overengineering of your life. Teaching noobs to create a huge mess
lilac walrus
patterns are useful to know, but ultimately they're not that important
honest cipher
yup
and they evolve over time
for example, most of the typical OOP patterns are banned if you want good performance in your code
data-oriented design has its own patterns, different from the classic ones
and functional programming also has a different set of patterns
remote saffron
I agree, the way design patterns are taught to people has a huge negative impact in softwares in general
honest cipher
its the reason why Enterprise Java is the joke it is
thats literally what they teach in a lot of universities
remote saffron
our course had a lab where we were forced to use some pretty unreasonable one on a small team project
it was a lotr tower defense game, and the units were forced to be different classes based on race
so they could inherit from a base unit class
but the only difference they had were in stats lol
problem was: most student did not understand that it is bs
they thought that's how you would do it in real life
honest cipher
we had a similar thing
with a board game thing
it had to play both checkers, and backgammon
but the entire thing was HEAVILY OOP
the entire thing could be done extremelly easy with a non-retarded design, but the extreme oop of the thing made everything way worse
like Board->Checkers, Game->TokenGame->CheckersGame
etc
remote saffron
rofl
yeah cause university teaches the oop patterns and ways to design things in oversimplified examples which makes it unnecessary to use those, but it does not explain properly when it makes sense to use it and when isn't
honest cipher
that project also was entirely TDD-d
which is good
exactly the entire test suite was done before the program started
and it was super deep level
so there was no other choice but to follow the stablished design of the thing literally
fickle hatch
@lilac walrus the context for "there will be more open positions than people" is the assumption that there will be a big economic uprise again in the future
So there will be more money to go around and more (indie) companies opening up etc
Sort of a thing that happened after WW2 and created the momentum that we see winding down today 😛
lilac walrus
I dunno, people only buy so many games, and I suspect that that's not because of money, but because of time
X consumers buying Y games is the limit of what the industry can support
fickle hatch
The limit is in consumers deciding to not buy an extra game because they don't have extra money to just throw out on leisure
There are plenty of people to go around, only a fraction of them will be interested in videogames, but it's still a big fraction. There's more than enough consumers, but they aren't willing to spend money as much as they were willing in lets say 60's in relative terms (on comparable leisurely activities)
It's not videogame specific though. I mostly brought it up cause for engineering (my industry) there was a lot of shrinking in relative terms even if in absolute scale (of how many goods/projects are made) is went up
If previously you could hire an extra drafter and then maybe a person to manage documentation even in a small architectural company, today it's gonna be tough unless you combine some of those jobs in one D:
plucky hatch
Interesringly, many users on stean have lurchased 200+ games and only played less than 60.
ocean harbor
large portion of user base is buying games on sale
there was a "joke" on one of the GDCs, where indie launched their game and got 20k units sold and another 200k in whishlist - waiting for item to be on sale
plucky hatch
Many users, I assume, probably play multiplayer games most of the time and then purchase singleplayer games during sales at lower a lower price.
They might spend 20-60 dollars USD on a multiplayer game that they might play for months. And spend 5-20$ on singleplayer games that would last them 2-5 days.
void mountain
So I got tasked with making a 3 minute animation of a car showreel, and I've been asked about my price
How much do you charge for something like this?
Note that I will be provided with the 3d model of the car
This is my first time doing something like this so I could use some input on giving my work fair value
spice dagger
What is your time worth to you?
How long do you estimate you can produce the end product?
Everyones skills and circumstances are different
So its hard to answer that question directly.
We can help guide you to your own conclusion though.
void mountain
Since my task will probably mostly revolve around materials, lighting and camera panning (and maybe the car moving), I don't think it would be an exceptional amount of work (up to a week at most)
spice dagger
Best to break it down into Hours.
Then you can work out a rate for which you can use later to estimate costs for other jobs on a per hour basis.
Itemize the job, how long you think each component will take to complete.
What minimum amount of money per hour your willing to accept as payment and go from there.
void mountain
Mhm, that seems sensible, although this will be the first time I'll be doing something like this so I don't have an exact good feeling about how much everything would take
and I understand everyone has their own price, although I was curious to hear the price range of people who were in a potentially similar situation
spice dagger
Thats part of the job, if its quoted then quote it higher than you think it will take so you can cover your ass if it takes longer than you expected initially.
spice dagger
If you expect a job to take 5 hours, make it 7 hours to give yourself 2 hours room to cover any unforseen issues.
Dont be afraid to quote high, you can almost always negotiate with the other party about the final price.
Typically most people will negotiate, if not then they probably underestimated what they are asking to be done or they dont have the cash to do it in the first place.
Make sure to protect yourself as well. Work out your payment terms as soon as you can. For example typically i require a 50% upfront payment for Quoted work.
You dont want to be halfway through a 60 hour job and then all of a sudden the Client changes their mind and says they dont want it anymore.
fickle hatch
Also don't forget that you only get 75% or so of usable time in a day
As a human being, you will lose 1/4th of your time on overhead. It's tempting to measure how much you took on a single item (lets say 2 hours) and then extrapolate it to being able to complete 4 items in a 8-hour day
But this extrapolation is not correct
finite mulch
spice dagger
Yeah dont undercharge. Have a minimum that you simply dont go past no matter the job. The worst thing you could do is undercharge which just devalues yourself, your work and the work of other freelancers in the industry.
void mountain
Thanks a lot, my mind is a bit more at ease and I've sent them an email with a per-hour rate that I consider adequate for my skills, but not overly modest
So now I'll wait and see
I'm not new to 3D, but I'm very new at being paid for 3D
So it's a bit embarrassing to not really know how to value my own relatively decent skills
but the input is very helpful
spice dagger
Got to start somewhere mate. No harm in asking.
harsh brook
@void mountain you aren't alone man, I got my start the same way its stressful as hell at the start but if you keep grinding and make it through the other side you'll never regret it 😄
quick thunder
blizzard lays off 800 people
round belfry
I love competing against 800 more experienced than I am.
fickle hatch
It's not a good sign in any case, but from what I heard they were non-dev jobs
spice dagger
Its just part of Activisions new hold over Blizzard.
Cost cutting and all that so the CEO can keep his $30m a year salary lol
fickle hatch
Well
I don't think it's for that. Probably more to keep those numbers going up, you know
How are you going to justify numbers becoming smaller without any clear big bad evil to point towards?
spice dagger
Eitherway, not good
fickle hatch
I think it's a sign of terrible things to come
barren lotus
Dev jobs too, one of the articles said High Moon got hit which makes sense since they were a Destiny support studio which ATVI no longer involved in
I'm guessing Vicarious Visions was affected too
dense needle
Poor man's mocap. Just film yourself side view. Cut the key frames out in a video editor. Just make sure when you apply to a game company you let them know it was partial mocap.
spice dagger
Isnt that called rotoscoping?
dense needle
Depends how you film it. I see a lot of people starting out try to do it by hand. References are the life blood of animation.
fickle hatch
It's called rotoscoping. The big animation studios use similar references
You just never achieve the same niceness with mocap as you do with hand animation
dense needle
You can still hand animate. But it's a lot easier to have a reference. Best to start from there than from scratch as a new animator.
alpine oar
is a career in gamedev worth it when you're in your 30s and might start a family soon? i just recently got a frontend gig at a silicon valley startup and the pay, benefits, and work/life balance are pretty top notch and have heard it's harder to find such niceties in gamedev, even though i'd imagine gamedev is more fun.
remote saffron
strongly depends on your personality
alpine oar
what type of personality do you think is best suited for gamedev?
remote saffron
the one who goes crazy if forced to do something he is not interested in or finds boring
urban stump
A disciplined one.
I said motivated at first but motivation fades. Discipline doesn't.
remote saffron
if you find joy working outside of the game industry it is probably a better idea to do so imo
alpine oar
i do but i think i lucked out getting into a very "hip" startup, which might skew my opinion of the industries.
violet coral
@alpine oar there are a lot more studios being run by people who have families and often kids, so it's still worth it if you find the right studio and role that allows you to balance your life with work. i have been fortunate to find gigs that are very flexible when it comes to hours, work-life balance, etc. that said, i would make sure that you land a gig at one of the major hubs for gaming so that you don't have to move when your studio suffers layoffs and the like. moving is about a bazillion times more difficult once you have kids.
hybrid phoenix
Best traits for gamedev are curiosity, drive and dedication I'd say
Enough drive/dedication to get through the shitty moments
And enough curiosity for proper self-reflection and in order to keep yourself on your feet enough in this ever-changing industry
barren lotus
Stay in software and make games as a hobby? My friend used to work HR at Amazon corporate and now at a big game studio, she said they lose a lot of applicants to software companies because they're willing and have the budget to almost double what a game studio will offer you. Plus there are sign on bonuses and every few years you can transfer within the company to get a new sign on bonus. The work isn't creatively fulfilling though, so just make the games in your free time and release them.
hybrid phoenix
Yup, that's the major difference there
karmic kayak
you need to be an idealist in gamedev. Money is somewhere else. 😄
hybrid phoenix
I could be doing ATC at this point, got through the selections for that
But I'd really rather be slightly worried about my finances and be doing something I love than to be doing a stressful/unfulfilling job which pays incredibly well
You do gamedev because you want to make games, not because you want to get rich. If that's the goal, there's better places to go
dense needle
Financial stability, especially in America is essential. If you get sick... When you get sick you will need that.
fickle hatch
My plan for getting sick is die
dense needle
No cross the border into Canada plan?
fickle hatch
Maybe 😄
plucky hatch
@alpine oar
The video games industry is quite varied. It's difficult to get into it, but once you are in it can be the greatest thing ever or the worst.
Also, those who get recognition for their work publicly often have little to do with the actual products. Which is a problem that Jason Rubin highlighted in his speech at GDC 2004.
Players generally don't buy X game because X artist, writer, lead designer worked on it.
And game companies do everything they can to not let this happen too.
They want players to buy the brand (EA, Ubisoft, Epic Games, Eidos, etc.).
But studios are what they are because of the teams. Blizzard isnt what it used to be during the development of Diablo 1 or Diablo 2. It's a very different entity now.
There were notable differences between Halo 2 and Halo 3, because some of the key designers left.
A lot of people want to work for their favorite game studios, but dont want to spend the time to start somewhere else, build their skills to then later work at their favorite studios.
Some people care so much about video games that for them it would be the worst job in the world, because they would realize how much we rush games, how politics can be involved, how microtransactions can be more important than the game itself, etc.
And game developers will also change and grow during their journey in the video games industry. Some of the lead artists in the industry now started their career with very poor soft skills. They had to learn those over the years.
mortal zodiac
Exactly. The realities of almost all industries tends to be hidden behind highly polished pixels and awards. Actually working to make a profit more often than not entails cutting corners and making sacrifices to please shareholders.
dense needle
You can always work for companies that aren't on the stock market.
livid palm
fickle hatch
@livid palm I never work on serious projects without paying people. But for mods and prototypes - sure!
wispy spoke
I think that too many people risk it all on their first game and then get disappointed if it fails, never to return to game development. To me it's all about risk management and keeping composure so that you can make games long term. Sometimes that involves finding a job and being disciplined with your free time to build up to the moment when maybe you can start full-time work on a big project.
harsh brook
@wispy spoke I totally agree with this sentiment. Its to easy with game development to think that being an idea guy will be all you need when truly you need a depth of skills to bring a game to life that simply does not appear over night.
dense needle
Idea guy better know how to code. Otherwise it won't end well in development.
plucky hatch
I'd work for a friend for free... For a stranger nah... That said I still suck atm
dense needle
Never work for free. Not if you're putting in 30-40 hours a week. You got a biological clock. It's called your lifespan. The more time you waste, the more screwed you'll be in the future. It's not absolute, but you should be thinking about financial stability. In this era and all eras prior (unless you're rich) it's the standard.
astral oyster
@dense needle but how about revshare?
flat gazelle
Has that ever worked out for anyone?
wispy spoke
@flat gazelle only among people who really trust and know each other, maybe started from the bottom together, but even that's a bit of a stretch
dense needle
@astral oyster Royalties? Sure. That's the way my company goes. If you are the owner, make sure there's a cut off. With the a decent chunk going to the company vault. No vault, no future.
I'm not talking $20 in a metal box.
neat jackal
Yeah, ideally you'd have most of the profits going into the vault tbh.
plucky hatch
Well if it was a joint project and we shared any profits that's what I meant
tacit heath
need some pro advice.
-
I got a very generic media degree, that covers media production in general.
-
I taught myself to program with books and online courses, I know three languages, javascript, c# and c++ and learned design patterns and cs basics by books
with the described background, do I need to go back to school and study CS again, to get a chance of at least getting an interview at a studio (I would be fine to get into b development, not aiming to make the next CoD for my first job) or can I am I better of grinding unreal and, get more proficient with c++ and build games for my portfolio?
so as a TLDR; for someone who has a somewhat related degree to games, is portfolio > degree that much of a factor or do I need to get a CS degree to at least get a chance?
lilac walrus
portfolio is always more important than a degree
there's no point even having a degree without demonstrable ability to work on games
you're best bet, is to just make things
tacit heath
I see. okay, thats good to hear. then I will stick to my strategy and bcome proficient with my tools/ languages. I just wanted to check how strong the bias of the industry is towards degree holders
tacit heath
cool, thats great news!!! thanks a bunch
digital gate
Can confirm you don't need the degree, but you should try and seek out holes in your foundation.
wild relic
You say that, yet finding a dev job, here, without a degree requirement, it like finding a leprechaun
digital gate
Where are you, then?
hybrid phoenix
They all say you should have a degree
If you apply anyway and you have a good portfolio, you should be fine
wild relic
GA. Hour south of Atl
Granted, that's not for game development, specifically, but any other software or dev job, even the most junior level ones, require a Bachelors in CS nowadays. One I tried to apply for wouldn't even continue the application process unless you entered your degree info
hybrid phoenix
I mean, there's definitely cases where they're adamant on that degree
But there's also plenty where you can apply just fine without one and have a decent chance of making it through if you have a good portfolio
digital gate
Also if you can skirt the application process you stand a better chance
digital gate
Apply at Hirez
wild relic
Well, every one I've applied for or asked for a degree. I think there's been a wild influx of graduates the past 5-10 years, and current devs that got their job that way are probably out of touch with the current situation. Supply of grads exceeds demand, at least everywhere not called Silicon Valley
hybrid phoenix
Supply of grads exceeds demands, supply of actually worthwhile grads definitely doesn't, from what I've heard
wild relic
Likely accurate. But most HR directors likely don't know what to look for beyond whet they're told to. So degree, pass a few tests, small portfolio that isn't broken etc
remote saffron
if HR has no idea what he/she is doing maybe that's not the best place to work for in the first place 😦
wild relic
And to someone who doesn't develop, the Degree sounds most important
digital gate
What does your port look like tho
dusty jolt
Erm
wild relic
I mean, think about it. How many workplaces have HR that really knows the job?
I'm an industrial mechanic, by trade, and our HR directors never so much as changed a tire
lilac walrus
so whilst they want the same skills, the degree requirement and the people doing the hiring are not the same
hybrid phoenix
Pretty sure most gamedev HR peeps are pretty engaged in the industry
lilac walrus
most good games HR will have some awareness of requirements
dusty jolt
Can confirm degree's are not of value, can even quote allar on that recently. Also if you keep getting declined sounds like your portfolio might be lacking? Also as far as i can see, studio's are ALWAYS hiring, there is just a lack of people with skills.
dusty jolt
Neither do i
lilac walrus
I have a high school diploma in a completely unrelated field, haha
dusty jolt
and i am not too potato
wild relic
To clarify, I've never applied for game dev work. Only webdev and JS-centric jobs.
I'm only just beginning with UE
lilac walrus
games is a different industry; one wherein standards are still evolving far faster than a degree course can manage
dusty jolt
Well two totally different fields then
lilac walrus
and most people coming out of degree courses often lack the prerequisite knowledge to work in games anyway
wild relic
I'm js, people said the exact same thing about degrees being useless, in the webdev industry
Degree !== skill
Degree === resume padding
which is arguably more important to an industry newbie
dusty jolt
They could be? perhaps you suffer from portfolio skills? because alot of the time people want too see you can do a job, not you can pass education criteria
lilac walrus
the first thing I look at when hiring people is their portfolio, specifically personal projects
it gives me a decent insight into what they're capable of and what they're into
wild relic
I mean, sure. I could probably go deep searching the classifieds of every podunk startup in Atlanta, and get hired making $30k/yr
But i'll pass
digital gate
🤔
tawny kayak
The vast majority of the time, the company just wants to see a body of work that proves you can not only come up with creative ideas but execute on them, and repeatedly.
dusty jolt
lilac walrus
doesn't have to be creative
last person I hired didn't even play games by their own admission
but they did build a wave simulation in their spare time because they thought it was cool
tawny kayak
Sounds creative to me.
lilac walrus
they don't have to be creative though
dusty jolt
sweats nervously about spare time
lilac walrus
some people might be really into networking problems etc
wild relic
spare time
You meannaptime?
digital gate
me: does a rework of a UE system
employers: shocked pikachu face
dusty jolt
Lmfao
me: creates CPU and automated system in factorio
employer:
oh wait..
god dam it i dont know how to do that discord syntax
wild relic
hur
digital gate
` thing here `
wild relic
^
digital gate
tawny kayak
digital gate
0/10 you're online and share the server still
wild relic
🔪
digital gate
Also the admin is here and we're blatantly offtopic 🤔
wild relic
Protip: Don't do drugs. Much...
vivid pivot
Anyone got an indication what a junior game programmer's gross income could be in The Netherlands?
lilac walrus
whatever you negotiate it to be, and much of that is going to depend on how good you are tbh
people with experience and specialist knowledge, even juniors, tend to be worth more than those without
a salary could range anywhere from 20k to 45k depending on studio and individual competency
fickle hatch
@dusty jolt dude if you can make a proper CPU in factorio, you're the kinda guy to work in my company haha
dusty jolt
Hah thanks! But im really not, First time ever doing it
I started with pure CPU architecture design, but then things got so fat that i ended up taking advantage of the factorio properties in game, but still kept to serialising data to binary
digital gate
Demonstrated interest, and execution in the form of arbitrary constraint... does say something tho.
you're not just gluing libs together, you're working through the logic allowed in the game (which is limited in itself)
tawny kayak
Agreed. Demonstrating an ability to work within constraints is a big plus.
dusty jolt
Ah that is true, worst constraint
Every Factorio combinator (think of it as a logic node) added 1 frame of delay to the chain, game is capped at 60 fps
mfw was having to parallelize things for speed
dusty jolt
Yes
Well the main thing i made was a input output node thingy
You put a Item in with an amount
and it split the items sub components up in to 6 different outputs, and how much of each was needed
Can confirm that was a nightmare
No way in game by default to separate things out of a single signal easily, so had to get creative
Was able to filter out items from a data list at 6 items a second max speed
Then there was stack, ram, instructions, etc
Did not really end up getting funky with instructions that much, due to how massive they ended up making things, so i ended up with sort of like an abstraction layer? for things
echo fox
this probably isn't quite on topic but.. let's say I want to go the indie route. With a proven track record and a team
have you guys got any similar experiences to share? failures, hardships... possibly something other than "get hired somewhere" 😛
flat gazelle
learn the buisness side of things. It's a lot harder than the whole making a game part.
How to pitch for capital, keeping books/payroll, legal, marketing and so on
echo fox
I've never dealt with that personally but I can imagine...
neat jackal
Exactly, usually a dev hasn't dealt with it, which is exactly why it's important to learn about it when you wanna indie
inland pond
goddamn
so like
Id assume its not just as simple as, finish game, upload and sell to steam
west sonnet
Only if you want to waste your time and money
lilac walrus
it is if you don't try to sell it
as Glad-Partikel said, the business side of things is something you need to learn too
west sonnet
If you don’t market your game, you’re just throwing it into the wild. You are competing against larger and more experienced studios, an over saturated market, and picky consumers.
inland pond
yeah I want to earn at least a bit of money for all the time Ive put into the game
itll be real cheap though
ocean harbor
Just placing it on a steam can do more harm if you don't start with marketing first. What needs to happen is somehow a number of people need to buy or have your game and leave reviews. If game has very few reviews, there is very slim chance that it will be in anyone's feed or if people would consider to buy it at all.
flat gazelle
I think you've got what it takes 😉
ocean harbor
you can read/watch about some basic marketing moves from GDC materials
there are articles on gamasutra too
it can be as easy as just preparing all necessary materials for reviewers/press
there are plenty of services where you can make a website for your game over a weekend
all needed info can be placed there
then get in contact with some youtubers or streamers, the smaller they are, the more willing they will be to look into what you have to show
anyway, this is all already explained in numerous places, just need to spend time on it
treat like learning something new about UE4
inland pond
ok thanks
flat gazelle
Always loving your marketing guy.... I refuse!
inland pond
but I feel like I could fuck up bad and somehow end up owing someone/something money
ocean harbor
ideally you should open an LLC/Ltd to avoid this
west sonnet
You fear the unknown. Fix that 😉
ocean harbor
depending on the country it can be rather cheap
inland pond
and if this requires any money to be spent in the first place, like paying a site to sell the game, well, that wont really be possible
ocean harbor
well, selling games is a business and in business, to make money you need to spend money
west sonnet
Nothing wrong with starting out small. Just be realistic about your finances
inland pond
well I was planning on selling for like idk, 60p or something
but I got no money to pay a site with
ocean harbor
you won't make much sales from having it priced low
ocean harbor
in fact you can sell much less units if price is too low
inland pond
well no one will want to buy it if its much more
ocean harbor
as a lot of people avoid very cheap games
mental viper
you should match the price tag with the perceived quality
ocean harbor
^
inland pond
(obviously if its a game I want anyway)
well personally its hard to even judge how generally "good" my game is
or anything I make
I cant tell if it looks good to other people
lilac walrus
then let other people tell you whether it looks good or not before selling it
mental viper
observe similar games on the market, how they are doing, how they market and the response
lilac walrus
not rocket science really, hehe
inland pond
I should probably mention I'm 16 and have no experience with any of this
I just will make a big mistake
get myself into deep shit somehow
flat gazelle
Yeah, my comment was more directed to the guy who had a team and wanted to start an indie studio and probably make a living of of it.
Just making something for fun in your bedroom is different.
lilac walrus
if it's just for fun, might as well just release it for free?
inland pond
but my biggest fear is about 5 people playing it and then it dies
I actually want this to pay off
judging from past experiences (four years of spending hours on edits for youtube and getting about 20 views) its not looking great for me
ideally the game would start getting popular as of now because theres no way Ill feel comfortable releasing it without at least some people anticipating it
lilac walrus
how are people supposed to anticipate it, if you don't invest in marketing it?
bit of a catch 22, hehe
ocean harbor
@inland pond here is inspirational story for you. There was a game development company called GSC, owner wasn't of legal age to own it, so on paper it was owned by his father. They made many cool games, you might have heard about Cossacs and of course STALKER 😄
and GSC stands for his initials afaik 😄
inland pond
but how can that help me
(not saying it doesnt)
also what I was saying about anticipating was I need it to get noticed
west sonnet
Nothing stopping you but you. There are obstacles and hardship. But that is life.
ocean harbor
You can release it for free on itchio as in beta state. Advertise it a bit there, if people play it, you will get some feedback, polish from that feedback till you feel that it's ready to be sold.
like this gem was for free on the dev's website, for quite a while:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/394970/DEADBOLT/
It wasn't a complete game, just to the point where it was developed at a time (about 1/3 of levels)
inland pond
thanks
but generally getting noticed is REALLY hard
I'll try releasing a demo some day
vivid pivot
I have two technical meetings this Friday. Already sent some code beforehand which lead to the invitation for these meetings. Any tips?
fickle hatch
Be yourself and relax
vivid pivot
yeah will do. Thanks 😃
proven zephyr
Here I am proud to release my....
Animation Production - Reel 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH-XH3kIAgM
I've been wanting to get more into Unreal Engine, but not sure where to begin. The first showcase shot of the reel was done with Unreal Engine - have to admit it was my first UE project. But I got addictided and hope to do more.
When you guys make reels, do you have specific specialized reels or more general ones like this one?
Does it matter or should there be a particular kind of reel (if you have enough experience) for the kind of job you're applying for?
inland pond
my god youre such a good animator
thats like so many different styles you can do bloody hell
wait is it all you or a group
main if I had money Id totally hire you
proven zephyr
I did about 80-90% of the work in the reel. I hired 3 other people and delegated some work, but yes, mostly me.
And.. thanks for the comments! I wish you had money, haha
inland pond
wow, I cant believe you can do so much yourself - how old is all this stuff? like is it over a time period of several years or something
proven zephyr
Yeah, it's over a few years. Some of them are from 4-5 years ago, but within that timeframe more or less.
I had 45 minutes of linear content of work I did to edit, and that was from my favorite projects, haha
inland pond
wow I wish I could animate half that good
my animations are pretty crap, like Id say only just about good enough for a game
and 2d would be great for story telling
proven zephyr
Yeah, the motiongraphicy stuff is handy, though those projects were more like cutout.
Hopefully I can find some work with the reel. Spent all week making it!
vivid pivot
Maybe #looking-for-work can help? 😉
proven zephyr
Ah yeah.... I guess I'll take a browse there! So many proposals to create! Woo!
vivid pivot
Trying never hurts, good luck 👍
dense needle
@inland pond Poor man's mocap. You have cell phones. Record side profile animations, walk cycles, run, etc. I showed this before. It's highly effective for 3d animators starting out. Do not make everything from scratch. References are everything.
inland pond
them?
dense needle
These days you can even screen shot youtube videos. Sorry, reading emails on the side lol.
dense needle
Just line up the action to the next action. Leg out to leg down. It's very easy once you break it down to key, important frames.
It does involve math, figuring out how many frames, how fast each frame is. Notice how I numbered them. Where the legs move.
harsh brook
reference is key across the fields good luck reaching something realistic if you don't have a realistic target
plucky hatch
Hello friends what are the job opportunity for houdini artists in game industries
flat gazelle
There are plenty
Depends what you want to work on
And it depends on what you mean by "Houdini artist"
lilac walrus
an artist who is very good at escaping when you chain them to their desk
dusk raptor
FX/Procedural/Destruction I guess ?
plucky hatch
@lilac walrus lmao
harsh brook
Best way is to look for the job you want and see what they are asking for in terms of software knowledge
plucky hatch
I've seen an interview recently from BlenderGuru with Alex Alvarez (Gnomon).
https://youtu.be/kl37_C0OI0o
And Alex was basically saying, everyone applies for character artist and 3d props positions. it's super competitive.
But very few actually apply for VFX or technical artist positions.
honest cipher
@plucky hatch actually growing HARD
for houdini guys
or it seems so XD, everyone wants a piece of either that procedural sweetness or fancy FX for cinematics
harsh brook
its usually a plus in vfx just got a job in that field and I mainly use houdini for my stuff, but it took a bit to get to the point where my portfolio was interesting
flat gazelle
Yeah, Houdini has been my main tool for years. For everything 3d. Not just fancy cinematics 😃
plucky hatch
Other than SideFX, are there any good websites to get into VFX?
And Im ean more like... Guilty Gear Xrd effects
Attacks, magic, weapons, grenades, footsteps, etc.
Not really the destructible environments or or flowing water, etc.
Gameplay related VFX
Like all the attacks in Dragon's Dogma, all the spells, etc.
flat gazelle
plucky hatch
Thank you!
harsh brook
Its definitely the hardest area of game development to get help in though. I mean most sites don't even mention games vfx artist in their breakdown of game jobs haha
flat gazelle
O.o
Are you trapped in 2006? Should we send help?
Blink twice if you are under duress
harsh brook
thats been my anecdotal experience, primarily in relation to 3d modeling where there is heaps of help across the board. Even finding a good fumefx rundown was practically impossible until the last few years
I see it especially in school curriculum where after I got my BS I saw no reason to continue because they had no resources for vfx, but had heaps for 3d modeling and animation
plucky hatch
I agree that VFX is hard to get into. When I was studying game dev in college, we had a group for 3d anim and they had only a few courses targeting VFX
If it`s not even just 1...
Maybe the program changed in recent years. But it`s VFX is the kind of subject where I would ask the teachers (who were industry vets) and they were clueless about it
In 3d modeling we had a class about use particles... but that was it.
Was more like a bonus class
Anyway, Im glad to see that today there are many more resources on the subject.
harsh brook
faced the same issues still remember the first time I wrote a shader in unity and asked for help on an issue I was facing and the professor just told me oh thats a shader no one knows how those work here
plucky hatch
😂
inland pond
you know, for some reason I really wanna try making one of those casting engine thingeys that things like the original doom ran on
even though Id probably hate it
I really wanna try that technology
fierce widget
Raycasting.
fierce widget
Why?
inland pond
well I dont even have much experience at all with all that real text coding
Im just an idiot who only just barely understands ue4 bps
fierce widget
It's good to be ambitious. There is no faster way to learn. If it is your passion, then once you have figured out how to set pixels, try your hand at writing a raycasting engine.
In the worst case, start in text mode/on the console.
Sleep well!
inland pond
hah thanks I just unfortunately havent got the time to be spending/possibly wasting on things that could end up getting me nowhere
plucky hatch
Sorry for reply little busy in travel..
Thank you so much for all the reply comments
@dusk raptor procedural Technical artist
@flat gazelle Houdini artist for technical position
@honest cipher I am more interested in coding and tool development so I guess to go into game industry for technical position .
astral oyster
anyone On? can you give me an advice why is that they give me an animation assessment while I'm applying for 3D artists position. why is that?
plucky hatch
@astral oyster business perspective: probably so they can cut costs and not need to hire more employees...? Hiring perspective: Also it means you have more knowledge than needed, and you fully understand concepts.
astral oyster
@plucky hatch but they have another different position specifically for animation, and insist to provide maya and max file while I already indicated that I'm a blender user. why is that? this confuse me and kind of irritated.
plucky hatch
@astral oyster example, one day they say "hey we need a character that can move like this" so then you go okay, it needs to look like this"
astral oyster
@plucky hatch then i'm not qualified for that position I am not fond or have knowledge on advanced level in animation I am more on a environment artists.
@plucky hatch also I was expecting a related assessment rather than full animation they should be specific.
plucky hatch
@astral oyster then ask beforehand what they Expect, then decide to go through with interview process?
astral oyster
@plucky hatch they give me 40 hours of assessment with no advanced understanding of Maya or even Max is like rushing my brain thru this new learning in like 40 hours including the file with animation walk cycle and rig and facial? like wut?
plucky hatch
Idk. Just always read or ask what the employer expects of you when applying to that position...
astral oyster
@plucky hatch is this type of recruiter are common in all kind of studio?
plucky hatch
@astral oyster I don't know.
astral oyster
@plucky hatch the recruiter specifically said 2d / 3d animator and 2d / 3d artists in different location this confuse me a lot and frustrated.
plucky hatch
@astral oyster yeah that's understandable. But if environmental 3d artist is what you're looking for that's what you should apply to.
astral oyster
@plucky hatch yes thank you. but it's weekend and my email won't reach them at this moment sadly.
tribal trout
Howdy. So I have been learning programming for several years. I am quite comfortable with UE4++ and c#. Blueprints are a breeze. But I don’t have a degree or much in the way of demonstratable experience. I have one game I worked on with a friend for a Jam. I really need to pick up some work but not sure what the best approach to getting a jr position as a programmer or technical artist would be.
Ideally remote. Bethesda is near by but a triple A is probably a bit high of an aim and of course they don’t use UE4
plucky hatch
Best thing you can do is put a portfolio together and resume and apply. You won't get negative life points for trying.
tribal trout
Certainly. I’m not sure what would be ideal for a programmer portfolio though heh. I’m working on a project right now for a non game real-time solution for live production media but its not really flashy and I’m just hoping to pick up contract work on smaller projects to pay bills.
remote saffron
you can get negative emotional points for being ignored but you better get used to that 😦
tribal trout
Haha I’m ok with criticism. I’ve worked as a designer for media and live events for many years. This is sort of a new career for me cause I’m tired of traveling
plucky hatch
@tribal trout well just add some works you have or create new ones to add in?
tribal trout
Not sure if I can link here. https://youtu.be/vzrpP8z9kU0
That’s the one complete project I have from a jam
Would more things like that be good or doing things like plugins or specific systems
flat gazelle
@plucky hatch sure, there are plenty of need for that type of role.
Did you want to know something specific?
plucky hatch
@flat gazelle yes .. I want to know about vfx tool development for games .
flat gazelle
That's a very tiny niche. But if you expand to general tech art and toolbuilding, especially with hengine, then the world is your oyster
Most vfx artists are already fairly technical so we build our own tools. That's why I recommend expanding a bit.
ashen lynx
On the topic of VFX being hard to get in, I've had a completely opposite impression. Getting off the first interview for prop artist required incomparably more effort than getting Tech Artist position. Or at least that was my impression.
flat gazelle
Probably because there's a huge shortage of VFX artists
There are millions of prop artists so they can afford to be picky
ashen lynx
Most likely. I've got transferred less than a month into the job, as soon my ability to automate tasks was spotted. Not exactly VFX, but I think tech art and vfx are close enough to extrapolate.
Right, I've come here with a bit of a question. I've been offered R&D job and particular offer looks more than favorable. If anyone worked in dedicated visual R&D teams, what is it like? Is it worth hopping over from tech art, main concern being overall availability of such jobs in the future?
urban stump
My last job was R&D, so I can maybe talk a little on this. It's... tough, especially on a smaller R&D team. You're often entirely self driven short term, with long term goals that you won't always know how to reach. It takes a certain type of person for it, and often involves you doing a bunch of work on aspects you don't like simply because there's nobody else on the team that can do it. And when your R&D is used in production, especially on a tight deadline, there's a lot of pressure and stress on you to make sure it's solid enough to get through things. Nobody is going to expect it to be bump free, but you need to be comfortable with moments like "Okay, the company I'm at just bet everything on the fact that this will work, even though it clearly needs more time, and if I can't get this tool through production right now people might lose their jobs."
If you can pull it off, then yeah, there's a -ton- of job security in it since nobody will know the tool you made better than you, but I personally had a hard time dealing with the stress knowing that if I screwed up, I would be dragging dozens of people down with me.
ashen lynx
Cheers for input. No issues with responsibility or pressure at all. The hop is within same entity, different subsidiary and office. 5 souls in the team. I am mostly concerned about this particular field experience being too narrow and lack of similar job openings overall.
honest cipher
literally every studio i know has a VFX position and is looking for VFX people
becouse they are stupidly hard to find
(game vfx)
flat gazelle
At least good ones.
The bulk of our applications were people who figured, How hard can it be and sent in a cv
plucky hatch
I got to be honest, Epic Games Montreal is currently hiring and they have the most uncommon job postings I have seen in a while around here. It's... interesting.
3D Modeler:
• Create characters, enemies, and weapons based on concept art or reference photos
Sr. Level Designer:
• Creating levels for Fortnite, using modular kits to design visually appealing and fun locations that follow gameplay rules
• Focusing on the visual quality of the game levels
Fortnite: Senior Game Designer
Qualifications
• Keen sense of performance limitations (optimization, streaming, LODs, etc)
--
Usually, I see companies that would either hire a hard surface artist or a character modeler. Not someone who strangely would do both.
Level designers usually are focused on gameplay and fun, not really focused on art, lighting or making levels look pretty.
And since when game designers need to be familiar with performance optims, LODs?
urban stump
3D Generalists are a thing, probably just looking for that.
west sonnet
3D generalist is normal. Uncommon for big studios but not an unusual role
The last two though
plucky hatch
I agree, coming from an small indie studio, I wouldnt be surprised. But coming from a AAA studio (Epic) working on ''Fortnite'' the... biggest game out there right now. I am a bit surprised.
That's why I find it interesting.
west sonnet
Sounds like a hiring manager who doesn’t understand what they’re doing to be honest 😜
plucky hatch
Last time I checked, they were hiring a first wave.
west sonnet
Or maybe it’s third party
plucky hatch
It's for MTL.
They opened a new studio here in Montreal and are hiring a first wave of employees that Im guessing could make a core team for MTL.
west sonnet
I mean the hiring division
plucky hatch
I have no idea where they are at. Maybe they are way past the first wave.
Who knows
😛
We do have character artists that have worked on Deux Ex and Mass Effect that can do both great hard surface work and characters.
I just don't think they would appreciate being called 3d modelers when they are specifically character artists earning the big $$$
Fred Daoust, Marco Plouffe, Chris Cao, Jacque Choi, etc.
They are all awesome people too.
I know that the level designers that are coming out from our schools in Montreal are focused on level design (gameplay, fun) and programming.
not decorating maps with meshes and tweaking the lighting.
west sonnet
Perhaps they’re looking for entry level. But as you said, fortnight
It is truly bizarre job listing and qualifications
plucky hatch
The game designer job is fine other than the LODs, I just thought it was hilarious
Like I can picture other designers read through the thing and have a WTF moment there
😂
west sonnet
Why not do so? I’m passing this around to my associates just for that reaction 😜
plucky hatch
Well I keep warning people that speed level design isn't level design, but level art.
And the job offer seems to ask for a speed level designer. So, I find it ironic...
For the game designer position, I think it is good to know LODs, but I cant remember a job GD job that had anything to do with that.
I personally just think that the jobs should match the education system that we have around here.
Otherwise, we are just wasting time/money training people for the wrong jobs
west sonnet
That seems to be a near universal issue with game development programs
plucky hatch
Well here, only Epic Games and Bethesda seem to have different needs for level design. More art related.
west sonnet
Too generic or so specialized that the kiddies never experienced a production scenario
plucky hatch
lol
fickle hatch
Quick semi-career advice question, is 3ds Max dead?
Does anyone in modern gamedev still use 3dsmax in their workflows? The other way to ask this is "is it worth to tell someone to learn 3dsmax or will they learn a useless skill"
urban stump
It's still used, but as far as I'm aware Maya has largely taken over since there's been so much film industry bleed-over.
It varies from studio to studio though, of course, there will always be exceptions. For instance, last I heard, Blizzard still used 3ds Max/Photoshop for some games like WoW, 3ds Max/Substance for HOTS, and I think they're using Maya/Substance for Overwatch.
So even inside studios, it can vary depending on the project, depending on how long of a tail that project has had.
plucky hatch
maya seems to be taking over simply because it is the better app for animation and several production pipeline are built around that.
so game companies dont mind if everyone else end up using maya instead of 3ds max or else
fickle hatch
3dsmax seems like an ancient and obsolete thing that nobody but people experienced with it use
plucky hatch
on the other hand, I'm aware of many props or env artist that can use whatever they want, it doesnt seem to have much of an impact on their production pipeline
fickle hatch
From what my artist tells me, the only thing that worries him about Maya is that Autodesk is not doing too well
urban stump
It may also seem silly, but a large part of why some studios are being slower than others comes down simply to "This is how we do it, and I don't want to change". That's why Blizzard has taken so long to transition over from Photoshop to Substance, and is still currently making the transition years after they started.
Some lead artists there feel that Photoshop made assets have a certain "Feel" to them you can't get in substance.
plucky hatch
I was one of those guys on polycount that kept talking about substance around 2013-2014 and artists would tell me to shut up, because photoshop was so much better
...
fickle hatch
I agree with the feel btw
I think "feel" is a totally legit reason to pick some worse tool over objectively better one - as long as that's the primary motivation
urban stump
And at the end of the day, you're always going to be learning new tools. I use Maya, and have for the last 10 years, but I've picked up on a ton of other stuff along the way and probably learn at -least- one program every year just to keep up. You can't get attached to things.
plucky hatch
The CEO of Allegorithmic dropped me an email to thank me for spreading the word about substance lmao...
that's appreciated
😛
fickle hatch
Is it the same way CEO of every other company greets me when I start using their service lol
Well, the companies here in Bay Area
They send you an automated message signed by the CEO
Feels personal and all
plucky hatch
It's Sebastien Deguy, he is a great dude.
I don't think so. Because I had a chat with him after to get substance licenses for a game dev school here
to help spread substance through Montreal
(conspiracies)
😂
Lot of stuff going on behind that scenes that no one knows anything about lmao...
urban stump
Back in 2013-2014, people just had no confidence in it because it was getting worse results since it was a new workflow people hadn't really done much with yet. It was more comfortable to use mari or photoshop.
plucky hatch
i just think that people dont realize that most people dont use internet all that much
But that's one of the key methods that we can use to have a positive impact on the industry and trigger changes
And there are few of us that actually do it
But it's those few people that are actually helping us all to pull strings and get some improvements here and there
urban stump
Anyway, back on topic. Yeah, it wouldn't hurt to pick up Maya to learn.
plucky hatch
What about Blender 2.8?
urban stump
Instead of going on all day about how Chris is the sole reason we all use Substance.
😛
plucky hatch
Oh nonono, I have nothing to do with it.
Im just saying it usually takes 3-5 years for new tech to spread
urban stump
At the end of the day, Blender 2.8 is beta software. A studio would be insane to use it in production right now.
Personally I'm more in favor of learning programs that will get you a job today, instead of learning programs that will get you a job in a year.
plucky hatch
The success is up to the guys at Allegorithmic. They understood how to make frequent updates and create educational content to help people catch up with substance
@urban stump "Personally I'm more in favor of learning programs that will get you a job today, instead of learning programs that will get you a job in a year."
I think it's wise. But there might be many other things to consider when it comes down to Blender.
Like if you make tutorials on the side, you have a youtube channel, etc. Like your career isn't limited to studio work, it can extend beyond that.
Vaughan Ling switched to Blender and I can see the increase in viewers on his channel
urban stump
Making money off of youtube is incredibly difficult and not worth the time investment for the vast majority of people. It's more productive to focus on improving your skills instead of editing videos, unless you want to become a part time editor as well.
plucky hatch
I mean it... as a whole
Studio job, gumroad stuff you might sell, etc
youtube
All of it
urban stump
If you're in a position where you're just -learning- a program, even getting to the point where you can make content people would want to watch would be an insane time investment
And nothing about making tutorials is exclusive to blender. You can do that for any program
Speedtree, Unreal, Maya, etc. People will watch good content regardless of software.
plucky hatch
if you look here, you'll see a pattern...
http://3dsavage.com/art-learn-from-our-industry-experts.html
urban stump
I learned how to subd model by watching someone's Rhino 3D tutorial.
Even though I was using Maya. Just because it was a good tutorial, and the tools between 3d programs are close enough where you can get away with that.
plucky hatch
What i meant is the Blender... unlike other apps, has a huge fan base
BlenderGuru extends to 700k+ subscribers.
flat gazelle
Very much the wrong channel for old, circular arguments
urban stump
At some point it was relevant to career advice. Not so much anymore though, you're right.
plucky hatch
Why? If you are going to freelance, it's important to maintain a decent visibility. And get one.
Unless this channel is particularly aiming at on-site studio jobs
Which is fine.
flat gazelle
There was a direct qeustion which was answered. Software X vs Software Y discussions should go in a relevant channel.
Since by their nature, they will not be resolved
fickle hatch
Yeah, I got the answer I was looking for 😄
plucky hatch
And we were way past it...
Your career doesnt limit itself to getting a job at X studio.
It extends to what you also do outside of that.
Which is also a choice.
But if you do take advantage of Youtube, Gumroad, Discord, Twitter, making tutorials, etc. Well this can have quite a signficant impact on your career and overall contribution to the industry, even multiple industries.
Let's just take William Vaughan as an example. He did work a little bit in the video games industry. However, he worked mainly in films. That said, he spent years creating content, video tutorials, books, etc. for Modo users that now the latest workflows consists of using MOP Booleans. And he created V60 which is a modo plugin that allows us to, within Modo, click on a button that opens up a search tool and we can use keywords to find one of the 640+ short tutorial videos that he made. He literally changed MODO and how we learn it.
And how we use it.
And that gave him tremendous amount of visibility for his career wether he chooses it to be in films or games.
If you are aware the the video games industry is somewhat unstable, wouldn't that help your career that have done stuff outside your studio job, something that might help you get some passive income on the side?
flat gazelle
Sure, but since a very large percentage of game studios expressly prohibits that, it's understandable that in this particular industry it's not a huge point. If you work at a shoe company like William, it's a different story.
And I don't think the teaching crowd is the same crowd that comes to this channel for Career Advice.
It's more the people wanting to get their start or make their first/second moves.
plucky hatch
I don't disagree.
ashen lynx
But if you do take advantage of Youtube, Gumroad, Discord, Twitter, making tutorials, etc. Well this can have quite a signficant impact on your career and overall contribution to the industry, even multiple industries. I'd put that under sincere doubt. Boosts your visibility for sure. Passive income.... well.. you would really pump out more promoting flat earth at far less effort. Pattern, that seems worrying here, is that a specialist needs visibility, or more to say, overstimated correlation between visibility and personal success as industry specialist.
plucky hatch
I didn't mean it as an absolute science.
I just meant it as increasing your chances of success by also publishing content, adding value to the industry somehow. On top of working in the industry.
ashen lynx
I just meant it as increasing your chances of success by also publishing content, Yes, that is the part I am talking about. And as employee, my opinion on it would be it is totally not worth it. This stops applying once you have business under your own name running, but I can't saying anything constructive on latter part.
And particularly regarding tutorial format content, I also have an impression that its usefulness is somewhat bloated and quite often over relied upon.
inland pond
man it gets to the point where even just playing games irritates me cus Im all like why can't I make something this good!
west sonnet
View it instead; How did they do x? What can be done better? Why is this fun? What can I do to improve?
inland pond
yeah I know I keep trying to take inspiration and I have done in some ways, such as map design from Doom, but when its things like textures, models animations etc then its a factor of generally how good you are at it
west sonnet
Jack of all trade doesn’t... they’re unicorns in AAA studios. They want someone who excels at what they specialize in. Comparing yourself to a multidiscipline team isn’t realistic.
inland pond
I know I know its just a stupid mindset I have
plucky hatch
We want to hire the best talent in the industry.
The company hires a designer.
Could you copy me this game please?
But it has flaws.
Oh yeah. Don't fix them.
🤦
west sonnet
Is there a story behind that one? 😜
plucky hatch
Multiple.
If it's not that it's something like..
Hey Mr. Lead. Why are those controls so bad?
Focus group.
But why don't we just change them?
Politics.
So you hire talent to let random players design your games. That's interesting...
inland pond
lmao what
west sonnet
Focus group? 😜
plucky hatch
Game companies sometimes organize focus groups to get a bunch of players together and know what they want.
A game company that was making a game that featured ''parkour'' elements, was told that players prefer to jump with A button, so that's exactly what they did.
Players could then jump with A button. But when you have to run around a city and climb everywhere in first person, doesnt it suck to have to turn around, drop your right thumbstick, tap A, put your thumb back on the thumbstick, continue, repeat....? Yeah, it's freaking terrible.
proud lion
Have a great next gen game idea, but no game development skills. Do I.....A: Go to school to learn the necessary skills.........B: learn the skills by playing around and watching relevant content to self teach.........C: find someone whos willing to assist me in the development in exchange for profit sharing of the final product..........or D: Contract out as able
lilac walrus
B or D
A if you don't think B is going to work for you
C isn't going to happen
everyone has ideas, and you have to somehow convince a person with development skills that your idea is worth working on rather than theirs
not only that, that they get a profit share, rather than just doing it themselves
plucky hatch
Is it okay to put a game that's in progress in my website?
I currently don't have professional UE4 exp (last job was a Unity dev) so I can't prove my UE4 skills and I don't have a complete UE4 game yet (every game was scrapped or remade to this game I'm working)
I'm going to be providing the link to my source code though.
winter copper
Should be okay (says the person who only has 6 months exp in his whole career 😄 )
^Don't take the word of this guy 😃
plucky hatch
One of the issues we have in the industry is if you are currently working on your own game, recruiters and employers could see it as a bad thing.
It's kind of a double edge sword