I did that for my last project @plucky hatch
#career-chat
plucky hatch
Only decorated work with no actual gameplay in focus, left the project coz I hate such approach
But did similar thing for Vblanco's project in pre-production, turned out good since his specs were simple and straightforward
kindred mason
@plucky hatch You got any LD Docs/Portfolio showing workflow/approaches?
plucky hatch
Yeah, I backed up some of the cleaner work with approaches
kindred mason
link?
plucky hatch
I am recreating my artstation to look somewhat professional, had one earlier. Can post in PM if you don't mind
It was done using polygon dungeon pack which I intend to use again to build some portfolio pieces out of
plucky hatch
Just asking , because it has ZERO to do with level design. And often aspiring LDs post videos of Speed Level Design which is really just placing meshes to make a level look pretty.
If you come here and visit the Campus ADN (previous Campus Ubisoft), in the level design programs there are no courses based on decorating game levels. That's ART, not level design.
It's all about making game levels fun, placing items, placing enemies, guiding players or scripting levels. (quests, rewards, cutscenes, enemy behaviors, patrols, etc.)
And since modding community such as CSGO or Unreal Tournament, those community mappers often do both level design and art. That leads to a lot of confusion, because people think level design is about art.
Now that's what I hate as well, speed level design
More like speed mesh rotator and scaler
I love my gray boxes, nothing else
The only Art term I care about is Composition
When someone says level design, I want to see stuff like this
And how it plays out in action, in-game.
I want to see how the person thinks
And the end result for the player. Is it fun?
sudden island
thats fairly low detail tbh
this is a block out of an uncharted 4 multiplayer map made by a designer
this is from a killzone game
sudden island
the naughty dog design test for level designers requires you to take a scenario they give you, plan and block out a level, screenshot it and put together screen shots in a way that explains the gameplay moment-to-moment
and they only give you four hours
from the moment you get the test, the clock starts
lilac walrus
that doesn't sound like a very good test tbh
better to test people under more real working conditions
sudden island
you can try the test for yourself here
this is pretty old (from around 2011-2012) so they probably have something different now
lilac walrus
yeah, this is a really bad test
it makes lots of assumptions and gives little to no pertinent details
firstly it assumes you're already entirely familiar with the game
secondly there's very little context; it doesn't fit into any other sequence of events, so we're told we can use anything in terms of items, equipment etc
sudden island
i mean, i dont see those as negatives, one of the points they state on their jobs page is they're looking for people familiar with their games
lilac walrus
you're immediately culling something like 80% of your viable candidates, including those who may well be more experienced
sudden island
this is a company that makes more sequels than they do new ip
lilac walrus
I've never actually worked on a game series I'm already highly familiar with myself as an example
but also if you pigeonhole your candidates into people who are intimately familiar with the series, you run the risk of creating an 'echo chamber' design department
people stuck in a single mindset
sudden island
another aspect of being a level designer at naughty dog thats different from other studios, you're the producer of your level
Act as producer for levels you design, as well as other parts of the game, facilitating communication across disciplines, clearing dependencies, and ensuring deadlines are met
from their job description
they dont hire producers, which is crazy sounding, but somehow its worked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km-d7RM0U7s you can watch this video to get more insight
bleak grail
I do agree with ambershee, the talent and experience will be a much more useful resource than the designer having experience with the game. A game is never perfect as well, the designer could bring more to the table, bring his own twist especially when they give him a lot of responsibility on the levels he designs
And even if they want a familiar feel to what they have, a good level designer can pickup pretty quickly. I mean, it isn't like Uncharted is a unique genre.
hybrid phoenix
Definitely not
It's some of the most standard-procedure level design there is, admittedly
(Not to say that it's very easy or anyone can do it, but it's not nearly as specialized of a thing as making levels for specific puzzle games)
lapis atlas
Familiarizing yourself with a company is a standard way of signalling to an employer that you actually want to work there. From another perspective, maybe they don't give too many details because if the level you've created demands a unique mechanic, they'll accommodate it if it's fun. I would assume they want different aspects and professions within their company to inform one another, rather than it be a linear process.
plucky hatch
Uncharted isn't even a good example to put in the name of Level Design since it does nothing revolutionary. All tomb raider games have done it better in past
Level Design needs to expand beyond FPS and adventure games
sudden island
huh?
plucky hatch
It's a general perception for the term
sudden island
that doesnt make much sense tbh, every game genre requires some sort of level design
sudden island
ok, so while not necessarily level design, the communication of affordance and communicating aspects of cards or symbols and attaching meaning to their purpose purely through visuals and design falls into kinda what the thinking space of level design is
communication to the player
plucky hatch
I believe UI designer would have better chance than level designer
Since there is no space to design
sudden island
alright, so any genre that requires the player to move around a space of some sort would be a better way to describe it
sudden island
but still a lot of level design is about subtly guiding the player
as well as using the environment's design to evoke reactions or communicate
plucky hatch
Skyrim does a great job with open world level design, but its dungeon and quests are just average
sudden island
i can think of memorable skyrim dungeon moments
their dungeons were pretty good at accommodating multiple play styles, they were very linear, but the flow of the dungeons and the pacing was done pretty well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i40Q4k71LWE this is a really great dungeon
plucky hatch
It's a wide spread comparison between skyrim and zelda. 100 linear dungeons vs few unique ones
Mass vs Class sort of
I still have issues with skyrim, the abilities could be used better, puzzles could be more challenging
More of an issue of game design than level design here, maybe both. Making 100s of handcrafted dungeons should have been better than they turned out to be.
As a game designer on our side project, I see the potential in every single game mechanic we discuss and add, opening doors to many opportunities
lilac walrus
I really, really hated Skyrim's level design
most of it was pretty dull, I remember very little of it tbh
Zelda dungeons though, they stick with you
Skyrim I think was more a victim of it's scale and lack of supporting creative tools
sudden island
the skyrim tools are actually pretty great at getting lots of content done by one person
the failings are in some ways tied to skyrim's approach to level kits, which they massively improved on for fallout 4 in terms of how customizable kit pieces could be
but bethesda's tool while at times they can be broken, have terrible interfaces or just be weird to use.. are probably the most creatively empowering tool for a designer ive seen
plucky hatch
@sudden island If you ask me those maps are just as low geo. The only different is they are finished. If you notice in the image I posted, it starts with walls and then it's just the floor plan.
Level designers arent supposed to add detailed geometry, that's not their role. They should just add what is relevant to gameplay, before artists take over the map.
That said, some artists will hate it if LDs try to do some environment work, because that's their job. And others might actually appreciate it, because it could help them save time thinking about what they'll do with the level to make it look great and believable.
sudden island
Different companies expect different things from a graybox
again, using naughty dog as an example, two level designers work on a level, one handles the geometry/layout, the other in charge of scripting/systems
plucky hatch
This guy had a lot of fun lol...
When I was working at Eidos Montreal on Thief, I had fun watching other level designers work. Different styles.
sudden island
also sometimes as a designer you do need to handle the detailed geometry in terms of shape, sight lines and composition because that's going to affect the gameplay
plucky hatch
Agreed
And not all games have similar environments and level design style.
If we compared that killzone map to Unreal Tournament maps...
Unreal Tournament maps have very clean paths with very little obstacles
sudden island
also while i dont really see this much in examples, adding simple colour to a graybox is good, just basic vertex colours so that during playtests it doesnt all just blend together
like using colour to communicate affordance, or highlight points of interest etc
plucky hatch
Sometimes, producers and leads might ask the designer to add in more detail to sell an idea
To their HQ or else
lilac walrus
it's pretty rare that things like walls don't affect gameplay
plucky hatch
XD
sudden island
this is what i mean in terms of colour
plucky hatch
Walls are important, but when I see LD detailing walls, Im like.. why?
sudden island
depends what kind of detail
lilac walrus
wall shapes can be used as things like leading edges to draw player vision etc
sudden island
like if you want to add important signage say like the player's trying to find the evac center so you put an evac sign on it
yeah amber's right
lilac walrus
focal points, object dominance or hierarchy can be important when leading players, especially in what will later be a complex environment
sudden island
it's interesting looking at how we interpret different shapes, and how some represent "danger" or some represent "comfort"
also, i learnt a really cool trick, the squint test
squint at a section of the level, the thigns that pop out the most are whats drawing the most focus and will be what players notice first and foremost
lilac walrus
the squint test is a classic, hehe
IIRC it has it's roots in print media design of all things
peak wadi
Hey guys! Wondering what do I need to switch my career to the gamedev industry.
I'm a programmer with overall 10+ years of experience: mostly web (javascript, node.js, etc) + few years with iOS (obj-c, swift) + 2 years with UE4 as a hobby/indie project (not shipped yet).
I've tried to look for some gamedev programmer positions, but most of them are requiring a released titles, or strong c++/grahics experience or something like that.
And it seems no one really considering a guy with strong but not gamedev-related programming experience.
Is it means the only way is to ship my own indie game for a portfolio before looking for a position in a game studio? Or how it's working?
kindred mason
For most jobs that I see, you can easily just get by with a programming test.
There are plenty of jobs on #looking-for-talent and elsewhere.
If you don't have a shipped title. You could either get involved in gamejams to get some quick games out (since they last anywhere from 2 days to 1 week on average) to pad out your portfolio (that's how I started out basically) or jump on any number of royalty projects (especially look out for the ones that are winding down for release, not ones just starting out) while working at your current job.
But yeah, portfolio is ideal, especially "whole game projects" as it shows them you can complete something from start to finish. But you could do game systems that may or may not have anything to do with each other. Inventories, proc gen, what have you.
The issue with a lot of the available jobs is most people don't want to relocate.
But if you don't mind relocation, there really are a crapton of available jobs for UE4 programmers.
10+ years of overall programming experience is a lot more than most folks on here. Get yourself on a call, get yourself a programming test. See results.
harsh brook
You need a portfolio. Simply saying I can program will not be enough to enter this industry as there are countless people who can program and they apply too, so you need to stand out in that pool of applicants.
You also will need to show skills in C++ for a full engineer position. If you lack those skills then you should look for technical artist roles many of which ask for python/lua
peak wadi
@harsh brook thank you, but I'm exactly looking for a programming role, I have no skills for a tech artist position – not familiar enough with shaders and such stuff.
@kindred mason thank you! I did not get the part about programming tests – do you mean some third-party tests about my skills in a specific languages? Usually these tests does not have any practical meaning...
west sonnet
He means, the employer will vet you by providing a test
harsh brook
Tech art isn't that narrow of a field some do shaders yes, but many also focus on pipeline/asset management
peak wadi
@west sonnet ah, well, I did get a test assignment once, about ray-tracing, after I clearly said I have no experience nor intention to work on low-level graphics stuff. ANyway, I made the assignment (it took a lot of time, to be honest), and was rejected with no feedback 😃
harsh brook
thats not rare
peak wadi
@harsh brook that's not exactly what I'd like to work on. Maybe as a starting position... Just I'd like to work on some gameplay/logic/AI stuff, not on a tools or such
harsh brook
then you need to show working examples of those areas
peak wadi
yeah, I see, so basically no one counts the experience outside of gamedev industry...
harsh brook
nope, entertainment is a show me industry, so show them why they should hire you
west sonnet
More so, they want to see applicable work
harsh brook
outside of that you have stiff competition, a lot of people want to make games
west sonnet
You can easily advertise yourself as a grizzled programmer but it’s the evidence that will land you an interview
peak wadi
@harsh brook right, but not a lot of people have real experience with programming 😃 I always believed that programming skills are mostly not related to the practical field, I mean there is no big difference in doing complex web-service logic or complex gameplay logic. Of course, there are some specific details in every application, but basics are mostly the same.
@west sonnet I see, thank you!
harsh brook
you'll see what I mean in time...
peak wadi
anyway, will continue to work on my own project then xD
west sonnet
Keep in mind it isn’t skill that valued
peak wadi
@harsh brook I understand that gamedev companies wants to see some stuff, not just hear about what I've done 😃
west sonnet
The ability to collaborate with a multidiscipline team far more cherished
harsh brook
no I mean thousands of people apply for every gamedev posting
you have to be not only good enough but better than everyone of those
peak wadi
@west sonnet ¯_(ツ)_/¯ well that's why usually companies asks for a CV – there are all the info about where I've worked, in which size of companies and such
harsh brook
thats why they can send you a test and not give feedback
peak wadi
@harsh brook that's true for any position, not just for a gamedev positions
shadow kelp
Main thing to bear in mind when applying for programming positions....just being able to 'do stuff' in C++ isn't good enough. You need to know how the language works. So many potentially promising candidates just fall to bits when asked very basic questions.
snow yarrow
We had multiple candidates that applied for App Development and couldnt solve the FlizzBuzz test ...
peak wadi
@snow yarrow those synthetic tasks does not tell anything about a candidate's ability to do real work
shadow kelp
@peak wadi strongly disagree. If someone can't do fizzbuzz they simply aren't suitable for a programmer role
plucky hatch
Same thing could be applied to Level Design work as well, if someone can make engaging quests and worlds doesn't mean he must be good at handling scripting things himself
lilac walrus
whilst there's a certain amount of truth to that, they're not likely to be very useful in a practical sense
peak wadi
@shadow kelp indeed, FizzBuzz is very simple thing, but still, it does not tell a lot.
lilac walrus
quest designers usually have some degree of scripting ability, since someone needs to implement it after all
shadow kelp
it tells you they aren't a programmer
plucky hatch
Some things are still standard and countless people fail the tests, like the bouncing ball test for animators
shadow kelp
not that I use the test personally...
peak wadi
@shadow kelp not at all
shadow kelp
well, I can tell you wouldn't consider anyone for a programmer role, even a junior or intern, that couldn't solve an incredibly simple abstract problem like fizzbuzz. It's displays a complete inability to problem solve.
peak wadi
@shadow kelp can't agree with it, but don't see a point in arguing
sudden island
game dev programming roles id be surprised if they did fizzbuzz
they go for way harder tests
3d math, tons of C++ stuff
shadow kelp
We don't use fizzbuzz fwiw. Our tests are more complex, not hugely though
remote saffron
but if you can't solve fizzbuzz, what can you solve?
sudden island
uh the tests they will give you are probably way harder than fizzbuzz so like.. kinda sorts itself out
fading yoke
There's a world of difference between "solve fizzbuzz" and "good enough to get a job"
So I think it's a bit disingenuous to point to Fizzbuzz as where people fail to get the offer.
Networking is far more important than problem solving, because then at least you can get paid to figure everything out as you go and get help from people who are better than you.
lilac walrus
I think you're missing the point entirely
if you can't solve the basic most problems, no amount of networking will save you
fading yoke
It's not even a compelling point. It's like saying that you can't graduate from school without knowing how to read. That's hardly useful advice. Borderline irrelevant, even.
lilac walrus
"We had multiple candidates that applied for App Development and couldnt solve the FlizzBuzz test ..." - actual quote from earlier
it's not advice per se, it's an anecdote.
dusty jolt
What's a flizzbuzz test
wild shell
lilac walrus
probably one of the most basic things in most programming languages
it's just a modulo operator
¯_(ツ)_/¯
fading yoke
In my experience, you're never going to get something as simple as FizzBuzz. You're going to get Medium-tier or Hard-tier Leetcode questions.
west sonnet
I’m confused unless I misunderstood the rules of the game. Wouldn’t just need a for loop? If that’s the case, a child could pass that test.
shadow kelp
yes you just need to know a for loop and modulo operator, and 10 seconds. IF you're a competent programmer
the point of the exercise is to quickly weed out the people who can't code, at all
west sonnet
Indeed
harsh brook
Iv never gotten a fizz buzz test. Every test Iv personally received was targeted toward the role I was applying for. Whether that be written in the job description or not, its always felt like the test in some way leads to the planned use for the opening and it shows in the interviews
kindred mason
Well, I can tell you for sure, that out of all the programming tests that I've received, there weren't any "FizzBuzz" questions. Since this was the first time I heard about it, I thought I'd try it out. While it wasn't hard at all, I did some research to figure out what were so special about these types of questions (since FizzBuzz is not just about one question). This article is pretty good at explaining it: https://imranontech.com/2007/01/24/using-fizzbuzz-to-find-developers-who-grok-coding/
Comments are pretty funny too.
Also, it's easy to sit here and say you'd be able to figure it out all in under a minute when you're reading the algorithms online (or have done them before). That said, took me a tad bit longer than 1 minute since I usually debug as I go.
I guess I am less than competent since I couldn't do it in 10 seconds. I guess all those senior programmers with 10 years also aren't. Good article though. Highly recommend for this debate.
**TL;DR: Some people type faster than others and can also work out problems faster than others. Story of everyone's life. **
(also wtf, never played this game in elementary school)
If you've never done FizzBuzz question and haven't already looked up the answer... try it here: https://www.hackerrank.com/challenges/fizzbuzz/problem
harsh brook
Fizz buzz afaik is only used, as stated earlier, as a test to ensure you have the mindset of a programmer. The solution isn’t as important as the process. Now that I think about it I received one fizz buzz test years ago in my 2nd year of college which I could see the use for at that point in my career.
lilac walrus
^
I had one many years ago that involved processing roman numerals
interesting question if you really want to deep dive into it
kindred mason
Depends if you typed that all in under 10 seconds I guess 😉
dense heath
took less than 1ms, but i did not type it dont have that much time to waste
shadow kelp
well, 10 seconds to 'solve' fizzbuzz is to analyse the problem and construct the algorithm in your head. Take as long as you like to write the code 😛
and no, it's not a question you're likely to come across in an interview. But, if you're not good enough to solve fizzbuzz quickly, you're going to fail, hard at any coding interview.
lilac walrus
also you fail the test because bad copy pasta errors mean missing quotation marks
code does not compile!
kindred mason
Well, on the topic of time. I tell you what, I definitely have never enjoyed programming tests that have a set amount of time (usually 1hour or less) with 50+ questions that don't allow you to use an IDE. Even though I think it's a tad bit unfair to judge folks based on how many questions they can answer in a set amount of time (or how fast they can answer them), I understand the reasoning behind it.
I don't mind the one that allow IDE use while being "watched" (via Skype/Discord, w/e).
"Take home tests" are pretty easy/nice as well. Though usually you are being graded typically based on how long it takes you to complete the test and return it as well as obviously having the right answers.
honest cipher
i prefer the take home tests, they allow flexibilty in time and tend to be very relevant to the job position
as long as they are reasonable
lilac walrus
tests you do in your own time make the most sense, since it means you can work on that test in an otherwise 'work-like' environment
it's not like you don't have access to Google and such whilst working
harsh brook
I was wondering if the speed of submission played a factor good to know
I prefer take home tests too. Mainly because Iv never had a normal test usually it’s some manipulation I haven’t touched yet
spice dagger
I would assume that submissions would all be graded at the same time, so as long as you dont miss the deadline i cant imagine it would matter.
harsh brook
That’s what Iv always figured
kindred mason
That's a wrong assumption
Take home tests are most definitely graded in some way with how long it takes you to submit it back.
Now, could some people not care? Sure.
But if they ever ask you when you would like to receive the test and they don't tell you ahead of time for whatever reason that they also grade on how long it takes to get it back, just ask yourself why they would ask you when you'd like to receive it. And not just send it to you at will.
If they want to mark it all at once. They can still. They just have date/time sent, date/time received.
Though they usually go by days versus hours.
spice dagger
I was assuming that they had given you a deadline. If not then common sense would tell you to do it as best you can as quickly as you can.
Obviously the faster the better.
elder mist
i was reading a wiki description and got in to a controversy issue
Fizz buzz is a group word game for children to teach them about division.[1] Players take turns to count incrementally, replacing any number divisible by three with the word "fizz", and any number divisible by five with the word "buzz".
If you replace 15 with Fizz, there will be no more 15, so no way to replace it to Buzz.
Have i passed?
shadow kelp
coding tests are usually timed. You get released the problem and starting solution at a pre-agreed time and given X hours to send back your solution. Timing is pretty tight, but it's partly an exercise in how you prioritise things.
miles better than putting candidates in front of a whiteboard in an interview imo, that's a horrible way to assess a programmer
lilac walrus
I've only had a whiteboard test once, it was awful
so awful I turned down the job on the basis of how awful the entire interview process was
as for time being used when grading, it usually isn't the case
what's important is that you send something back within the deadline
outside of that I can't make any assumptions about what you've been doing with your time and how much time you've spent on said test, because this is the real world and you're not working in an office environment, and probably have other things to deal with, such as your current job
ashen lynx
One particular thing I find slightly irritating is when you are introducing new fellow college to his job and details of the workflow during his first days in the office and for every item you are going through, you receive "we did it differently on previous job" phrase. Quite often it can be a contribution, but not during first work hours. And when it passes a threshold, where it starts being used as an excuse, it begins to constitute a problem. I'd though it would be an advice of some value to try avoid doing that.
winter mantle
I’ll toss my hat into the ring since I interview tons of potential candidates in my 9-5.
Firstly fizz buzz and other quick kanas are often done to see if you can even program. I often use these when interview offshore contractors, since in the past they would send people to us and they wouldn’t have a clue. This often weeds them out quickly.
Interviewing for a position in software today is often done in multiple parts. The initial round being talking with HR/recruiter to see if at face value you sound good enough then to the team. In between this step some companies may toss a coding kana your way (build a website by deadline, optimize this code, etc) then when going into the in-person they use that as a base to allow you to explain and give more questions/problems around where they think you are lacking or if it was not apparent. (Abracrombie and Fitch does this).
What’s more common and what I do in my process is that the candidate goes through several rounds of interviews, with different members of the team and tested in various ways. Sometimes it’s whiteboard, sometimes it’s sitting them with an ide open and a problem to solve. This is all time boxed to the hour per round. Companies that follow this are bungie, riot, Amazon, Microsoft.
sudden island
a lot of companies use codility (i think thats what it's called) to test offsite programmer applicants
winter mantle
Yeah we use that for our offshore contractors
But we also put them through fizzbuzz just in case. And we still get people who fail it
sudden island
are you in the games industry?
ashen lynx
In what way can you actually fail that? Overcomplicate?
winter mantle
I used to be, but I work for another larger company now
sudden island
from what ive heard game studios dont usually do fizzbuzz, it's usually more relevant harder tests
winter mantle
Fail fizzbuzz? By not knowing proper syntax for a language is one way. If I had access to the old ones I would post some but it’s very possible
Depends on the area you interview.
So a backend dev will have something like merging nodes or linked lists or what not where as a front end would be like build a website that is compliant to w2 standards etc
Amazon for example for its software engineer positions ask questions around sorting and large data.
A popular one that was used at riot was the fibanachi sequence.
But that was more for recognizing patterns and the like.
But the meat of the matter as being discussed above is most tests will be time boxed and if they don’t send along anything for a take home test reach back out and confirm with who ever sent it. Sometimes they just grab a template and it sends you a test that is missing the .jar file or other important info
Plus it looks good on you for following up to confirm with what you have been tasked with doing.
harsh brook
Good to know sorting complexity or big O in general for most software positions
shadow kelp
asked a candidate to describe the stack and heap the other day...response was a sharp intake of breath and 'ooh this is a bit low-level for me'. No. No it isn't.
digital gate
ooc, did they proceed to have a ballpark guess?
shadow kelp
they were aware of new and delete, but didn't really have any understanding of what they were doing. Had been working a few years too.
why I said a while back, being able to write in <language> isn't enough. You need to know what the code you're writing is doing,
spice dagger
Did they have a degree at all?
shadow kelp
yep
shadow kelp
it was a comp sci/game tech related degree
spice dagger
Jesus what are they teaching these days?
digital gate
Syntax
spice dagger
Mmm
shadow kelp
candidate had some pretty good projects to show as well, was quite capable in many ways, but hadn't covered the basics
digital gate
Yeah I've got a few gaps myself
spice dagger
You dont have a degree though. You could almost forgive that considering.
Its pretty easy to have a very loose foundation without a degree, depending on where you started and what your interests were could easily lead you to miss entirely fundamental stuff these days.
shadow kelp
I have many gaps too, in fact I'm seriously inexperienced in C++ compared to people typically at my level, but I am aware of those gaps and work on em 😃
remote saffron
I would have trouble talking about fundamentals like that even tho I think I understand them more or less and I have a degree 🤔
i mean I could say something, but I am pretty sure it would not be enough in a university exam 😂
spice dagger
Im just surprised that its not covered enough to be retained in a degree.
digital gate
At the very least being able to look at SomeVarType t; and knowing where it goes.
shadow kelp
it's quite possible to do a lot of programming without every really caring about where/how memory is allocated...lots of people do! You can't get away with it for long in game dev though.
spice dagger
Yeah it rears its ugly head eventually.
fading yoke
If a person is capable of making stuff that works well enough to get you to interview them without needing to worry about the definition of two vocab words, is it really worth quizzing them on and then looking down your nose at them if they don't know it?
When is knowing the definitions of stack and heap important? The only time I can think of personally is if we're trying to communicate ways to optimize a project that's in its final stages.
If they've been able to get by for years without having to worry about academic trivialities, then they clearly must have at least some kind of intuition for it even if they don't think of it as the vocabulary words by heart.
shadow kelp
knowing what the stack and the heap is is not an academic triviality
fading yoke
Knowing what the stack and the heap are is very different from being able to describe them by name in a pop quiz fashion
The latter of which is an academic triviality and is what you described
shadow kelp
if you don't know what the words 'stack' and 'heap' mean, then you don't understand the concept of stack and heap
and no, it isn't an academic triviality, it's completely fundamental to almost everything you do as a programmer
certainly anyone that has a compsci-related degree should be able to answer the question if they actually turned to class
lilac walrus
if you interview them and they don't know what the stack is, I wouldn't be so sure that they actually are capable of making stuff that works well enough
that's kinda the point of the interview process
There are people who have "portfolios" and examples which consist primarily of work that isn't their own, and you need to weed them out
fading yoke
I agree that anyone who has a computer science degree should be able to answer that because they are big concepts that they drill into you over your years or studying in those major courses, but you learn what those things are only through academia or because people who learned them in academia turn around and tell you that you "need" to know them as well.
If I am self-taught and you show me a project's source code, and then ask me what the scope lifetime of this variable or that class instance is and if I can explain it to you in layman's terms, then it doesn't matter if I am able to recognize and recite the defintions of your favorite vocabulary words on the spot.
We don't disagree that the concept is important to know. We just disagree on whether knowing the vocabulary word and being able to recite it is more or less important than actually knowing the concept and being able to explain it because you have the experience of using that knowledge in practice.
shadow kelp
I'm struggling here...how you could understand the stack and heap, but not know what the words stack and heap mean 😕
fading yoke
Logically, if you genuinely believe that it is impossible to perform the job of Software Engineer without being able to recite the definitions of stack and heap on the spot in an interview, then it would not be possible for these people you're interviewing to have the portfolio and experience necessary to get that interview with you in the first place.
shadow kelp
I believe I stated the opposite...that it's possible to bluff your way through life as a bad software engineer without being to explain stack and heap
lilac walrus
quite probably
but at the same time, it's not asking to recite a definition, but explain what they are?
I can't even imagine debugging without looking at the call stack
fading yoke
You guys are conflating academic knowledge with practical skills, assuming that you need one in order to get the other
shadow kelp
stack and heap aren't abstract concepts that only exist in the realms of academia
fading yoke
Not knowing what a stack is does not prevent me from knowing that the "Call Stack" is what I check whenever I get a runtime error
lilac walrus
FYI, I don't have a degree, and I'm not a programmer, and I know what the stack is
this isn't academic knowledge, this is basic understanding
fading yoke
Yes, and you don't need to know the vocabulary word in order to be able to know the concept and apply the knowledge.
lilac walrus
how and where would you even learn said knowledge, without somehow learning the associated 5 letter word?
that's utter bunk
fading yoke
To quote what I said a few moments ago: If I am self-taught and you show me a project's source code, and then ask me what the scope lifetime of this variable or that class instance is and if I can explain it to you in layman's terms, then it doesn't matter if I am able to recognize and recite the defintions of your favorite vocabulary words on the spot.
lilac walrus
at the same time, if you also completely lack the vocabulary, how do you communicate more complicated concepts with other people you work with?
slight tangent, but it's not unimportant
fading yoke
We agree there! We just arrive at different conclusions from that point.
You argue that if you don't have the vocabulary then you can't do the job and shouldn't be hired.
shadow kelp
there's no way that you can understand the concepts of stack and heap without knowing the vocabulary...it's absurd
fading yoke
I argue that the vocabulary can be learned more easily than the actual skills and should not be used as a way to gatekeep job applicants who are otherwise capable of performing the job duties.
lilac walrus
I'm with mid_gen on this, I don't see any way you could understand this concept without having come across the vocab somewhere along the line :/
fading yoke
Yes, but coming across the vocabulary in some person's explanation and merely recognizing the terminology at best is vastly different from those words being drilled into your head over a 4 year degree program.
shadow kelp
well ok, I think this discussion has run it's course. My #career-chat is make sure you know what the stack and heap are if you want to work as a coder in game dev...being stumped by the terminology is going to be terminal in most studios hiring process.
flat gazelle
I think the real career advice here is to purposley misunderstand and then argue semantics isn't going to get you hired.
fading yoke
Fortunately Unreal Slackers #career-chat chat channel discussions are not representative of industry interviews
ashen lynx
That is.. somewhat wrong assumption.
shadow kelp
well, regardless. Knowing those terms is absolutely not going to harm your career prospects...so you might as well learn em. You could have done so in the time it's taken to read this discussion ...so...😃
winter mantle
I have had candidates argue semantics with me about things such as this, and every time it is a hard pass. Not only are interviews a way to gauge technical skill but also to see how well you will fit into the company culture which in the game industry is honestly just as important as being able to do a red black tree sort or rattle of comp sci vocab.
This falls back onto why some interviews have a “fizzbuzz” test. Most interviews lead with this, and if you pass it quickly it will move on to much more pointed questions, but if you spend 40 out of the 60 minutes working through the problem then chances are you are not a strong candidate.
In those examples I make sure to walk them through the problem then also give them feedback and resources where they should go to fill in some gaps. I have just in this past week alone mentioned to a candidate that they may want to go do a refresher course on codecademy for some of the basics, because they were struggling to describe to me basic control flow statements. The position in question was for a senior engineering role.
lilac walrus
D:
steel creek
The first step to communication is having a vocabulary.
How do you expect to communicate with anyone if you can't use the words used to describe the situation?
I don't think I've ever had anyone in a candidate meeting argue semantics with me but if I did that would absolutely be a nope.
And you don't need to study them for 4 years and have them drilled into your head to just simply read.
Which reading would also be a major requirement in any candidate.
winter mantle
Any preparation for an interview would yield the result. Glassdoor and other resources give you a solid look into what interviews would look like for a potential company and plenty of resources exists for the sake of nailing a dev interview (gam industry or not), which if a candidate is doing what they can to put their best foot forward and prepare will encounter everything they need to know.
Plus if you can’t be bothered to prepare for an interview, then I would argue that you probably didn’t even want the position.
round belfry
Hey there, I have been working on my portfolio and I would love to hear you guys' thoughts on it.
I haven't included a link to my resume yet as I still have a few finishing touches to put on it. But if anything the feels off, out of place or missing I would love to hear it.
winter mantle
For a general portfolio I think this is a good base to start from @round belfry
I would personally like to see from the landing page the roles you played in those projects so I don’t need to click through to find out what you did. Past that I think it would serve fine for something you are handing out on cards or including in a application submission. The resume itself should be tailored towards the position and should have relevant info to where ever you are applying. Ex: gameplay programmer, give a high level overview of the systems you implemented, and make sure to have on hand answers for questions such as “what was an unexpected difficulty you faced while working on this feature? How did you over come it?”
round belfry
@winter mantle Thank you! It makes sense to add that. I wasn't really sure what to include on a proper landing page so had left it out for the moment.
winter mantle
Of course! The roles was really all that was missing, the project blurb and timeline were already included. 😃 keep up the excellent work!
harsh brook
Whenever I know I'm going to have an interview I review all the sorting algorithms, at this point its just a force of habit.
honest cipher
fun fact
bubble sort has its uses
its very good if you just want to sort stuff over time. You can do like 2-3 passes of bubblesort per frame and stuff sorts over time
and its actually fast under i think 50 elements
harsh brook
heap sort and quick sort are my go tos
honest cipher
best sort is std::sort(execution::par)
harsh brook
Is it normal to go through the interview process and be stuck in limbo for a month+? I swear only game companies have done this to me
honest cipher
no
@harsh brook thats why you dont do 1 interview
you do 20
and if several of them go forward, you choose the highest paid one
harsh brook
thats the goal think its just this publisher tbh haha cause both of their studios have been dragging ass
but the other ones Iv been testing for hopefully are better
winter mantle
Nah limbo happens because companies sometimes have plenty of tape. If it’s been a moment, don’t hesitate to reach out to get more info, shows them that you are interested in the role*
*only do this if you have gone at minimum a week after the last correspondence, specially if they say something like “look forward to the next steps via email” etc
spare jasper
Have any of you guys been given a white board test for a level design interview, and if not what do LD or Environment art interviews look like?
dense isle
Environment art is nothing special. I f you have an interview than that means that they looked at your CV and portfolio and they want to know what person are you
They can ask you something like - look at this piece of your portfolio and say what would you change to improve it
other than that , it is just personal screening
oh yeah, if you have more than one project behind your belt they always ask what project you most proud of and why. I heard this question all the time
honest cipher
can confirm
harsh brook
when I was interviewing for an environment tools pos at ubisoft they asked me to pull up recent environments I had built using them so that might happen
skype calls can go lots of places haha
spare jasper
Interesting, how many portfolio pieces would you guys recommend?
fickle hatch
Ten? 😄
You could impress people with just one piece with the right approach
Or even a hundred pieces might not be enough for some
harsh brook
Catering to the job your applying for is pretty important mainly so if you want realistic you need to make realistic same for cartoony or whatever
fading mural
Don't leave old low quality work on a portfolio just to up the numbers
Most important thing is to present work you want to represent your skill
flat gazelle
I hired a guy after seeing 3 pieces total. The amount doesn't matter. the quality does
distant holly
Also for portfolio! Is it better to show off hyper specialized skills only? Say, have a portfolio for level design, and then make a seperate one for lighting artists? Or is it okay to have those both in the same place?
vivid pivot
I would use sections/filters there since clicking two links is too much work 😛
lilac walrus
Two sections is good
Show off your best work that highlights your skills, basically
You need no more, and certainly want no less.
distant holly
Thank you guys!
ember bolt
I've recently (last 3 months) started messing with UE4 and am seriously considering taking it up as a career. I currently work in support for both front end (primarily angular) and backend (C# software, but also extends heavily into cloud infrastructure and networking), so no C++ there unfortunately.
I don't have a degree in anything computer science related and am wondering whether anybody has any advice on planning a longer term shift into game development? Things like systems/gameplay development, I'm not artistic in the slightest 🙂
I wouldn't expect anything overnight of course, and probably at a minimum of 2-3 years down the line is where I'm aiming for.
feral bloom
what do u mean to plan a long term shift into game dev?
ember bolt
I mean that I can't really afford to jump straight into a lower paid job due to commitments (rent etc.), so would need to get myself to a state where I could at least be going for a junior-midweight role rather than something like intern-junior
Just broad strokes of advice like 'yeah you need to learn C++ well' would be perfect as well, wouldn't expect a super detailed breakdown of everything
ember bolt
I guess really my question boils down to "Are there any pieces of advice would you give to someone looking to make the systems/gameplay development side of UE4 their career, when they do not have a solid foundation of C++/UE4"
harsh brook
You’ll have to learn c++ for ue4 or most AAA programmer positions. However, unity is used by a lot of mobile studios and is built on C# if you wanted to hit the ground faster.
round belfry
I have some questions about how to set up my resume if anyone has time. I am a new CS grad whose prior work experience is solely in web development. However, I also have a few UE4 projects that I feel like show that I really have something to bring to the table. Previously, I just had work experience in one section while mentioning my other projects in another section further down. I don't really feel like this presents myself well. I was thinking about just grouping together the projects into "Work and Relevant Experience" and then listing the personal/school projects like they are jobs.
Does this make sense?
I'm looking for a position as a gameplay programmer btw.
harsh brook
Make life easy for hr and you’ll have a better experience. Cut fluff so that everything on your resume directly ties into the job you are applying for. Look into engineer resume templates and look at job postings to get an idea of what they’d like to see.
round belfry
So you think I should just cut the web development stuff? I was thinking it would show that I know how to work for other people as well as develop games.
ember bolt
@remote saffron @harsh brook Thanks both for your answers
harsh brook
If it’s all you have for now keep it, but yes especially for AAA you need to be very targeted at a specific role. If you don’t have enough projects then keep working as you apply and throw them in as you can
The reality is your resume is what gets you through the door, what they look for is can they do the task we ask of them. The company will test whether you’re a good culture fit in interviews
round belfry
Currently, I have one very ambitious project that I am working on as well as a couple previous projects that really just feel like a prelude. I guess just really lean on that one project in depth on the resme?
harsh brook
If it’s a perfect example of what you’re capable of for the position yes move it to the top (after skills/programming languages of course skills always at the top for me at least). Make sure you have it on github so the can peer into it too
The goal is to have HR read as much of your resume as possible, they go through a ton of them so you don’t want to just get thrown out immediately
harsh brook
lets start with skills haha I would just state my skills, if you have skills that aren't standard for your degree it speaks for itself and if you want to describe your ability to work in a pipeline you mention agile/waterfall/etc experience not just a blanket statement
clean up pretty much all of your work exp there are a few grammar errors and you use to much fluff, yet again your accomplishments speak for themselves at the very least don't repeat satisfying that just gives a weird feeling
finally you should be stating specific accomplishments you were proud of at each role, so don't say "developed multiple forms of gameplay" cause personally idc that could mean anything and Im likely to assume something lesser than if you had stated a specific example you are proud of
round belfry
Thank you for the critique. Will apply it.
harsh brook
your django exp is the best one imo for how you state your accomplishments, games are just like any other job surprisingly haha
think the biggest thing would be to expand on your big accomplishments then link to a github where they can be seen
either that or make a demo reel of everything and make that the first thing they click instead of your website, you can then put your website in contact info
or you could just link to the various portions of your website for each game cause you do have a good breakdown there, but you need to remember you're kind of on a clock the more I have to dig the higher chance you go in the trash
you have good stuff though 😄 just present it nice and tidy haha
round belfry
It's a bit harder to know how to word these things as I just have a lot more experience in web development in a more professional setting. I think I will go with that last option and link directly to each game. Some of the functionality is done in Blueprint and I'm not sure how well that will show up on github. I do have download links for some parts.
harsh brook
thats ok think your writes up on your website are good just link to them from the start with the game
that way when you say you did something I can instantly go see it
but still clean up grammar and keep to focussed words HR uses software that automatically sifts through the first round of resumes and will just pick out resumes based on keywords related to the position, at least for AAA
digital gate
If the BP are particularly neat you might use blueprint.ue to visualize them
round belfry
Do you think at this level I should add the game jam game? It isn't as professional, but it does represent as "complete" product? And thank you for the advice once again.
digital gate
Haven't heard of anyone else doing that, but that way should somebody want to see how you structure BP they don't need to download your entire project
round belfry
To my resume I mean. It's on the site
round belfry
I might do something like that at some point. It's nothing particularly interesting, but on my more recent projects I have taken lengths to write clean blueprint.
It's weighing that against spending more time developing while I apply to jobs though and well...
I think I would rather spend that time developing 😅
harsh brook
might as well just keep getting better
but if you mention it make it relatively easy to see
supple timber
can someone give me advice?
west sonnet
First advice: ask your questions
supple timber
so i currently want to get into university for a programming degree and i have 6 years of experience in game development @west sonnet
round belfry
@supple timber What are your goals? Do you want to get out of game development?
supple timber
idk i dont have goals , and idk if i want to get out @round belfry
ripe token
Not sure if belongs here, but I was wondering...say I want to create a game of my own. I know I can't do everything and that I should probably hire a team. In which case, what would be the best "position" for me and what jobs should I leave to others?
Should I just work on the more art-related aspects if I know what I want it to look like? Or leave that to someone else and just describe it to them?
shadow kelp
@round belfry I would remove the 'programmer OR designer' intro. One or the other. They are very different career paths.
your website is good though, videos of your gameplay prototypes is a 👍 from me
round belfry
@shadow kelp Thank you and that makes sense. I'll update it to reflect the positions I am applying for.
fading yoke
@lilac walrus I'm working on a narrative branching game right now, it is hell -- I heard the Rick and Morty guys were doing one of those! Congrats if you got to work on that one
round belfry
Lmao don't really have any good pictures of myself. Going to fix that soon. I know how to answer the second question. The first question is a bit more difficult. I have a couple of fairly substantial projects I've undertaken in C++, but they in the past when I was a less capable programmer and not as representative of the level I'm at now. I have thought about going back and reworking them, but I'm faced with the question of whether that time is best spent working on my current project or going back and trying to salvage those.
Thanks. I took all of his advice into account when I reworked things.I have an old 2d pure cpp game I'd been working on so I might rework that and throw it on github. Also, guess I better brush up on my linear algebra.
frozen remnant
Is there some sort of an internship for a Game Programmer position where you can do it online/remotely?
There are no game studios (aside from some v small VR & mobile gigs) anywhere near me and I want to gain experience somehow during my last semester in uni, working on a real product with a team etc
lilac walrus
it's pretty rare to find something on-site, let along remotely
frozen remnant
ah unfortunately. It's hard to have a remote/freelance job when you don't have enough experience with an actual product as well
harsh brook
Have you looked into summer internships? A lot of those are more of a short term test to see if they want to hire you
narrow vigil
Speaking of internships does anyone know a good site that lists tech/programming internships? I can find internships for bigger companies on there websites, but is there a place where I can find more?
lilac walrus
they'll basically only be listed on said company website
narrow vigil
Okay, thank you.
merry tartan
I passed my final IQ test with a 65, my body is ready for the game industry how do I get started?
merry tartan
Do they have casting couch? I might be able to get in based on my looks and body.
frosty granite
Vexar if you wanna start in the games industry then I guess tutorials would be a good place to start
spice dagger
I did one a long time ago and it was 119 i think.
frosty granite
unless you already know UE
spice dagger
Not sure how good that is
frosty granite
yes
spice dagger
That seems low
merry tartan
I aint much for book learning can't I just think of the game I want to make and pooof it is made somewhere?
frosty granite
look up the bell curve
no Vexar that's not how it works...
unless you pay a bunch of people to make your game for you
frosty granite
what? xD no hahaha
spice dagger
Yeah your right 100 is the average
That seems low lol. I thought i was just average 😦
merry tartan
I am 25 points beind the average?
spice dagger
Well thats good i guess lol, doesnt help my imposter syndrome though haha
merry tartan
oh 35 I aint much for math
frosty granite
never heard of imposter syndrome, is it bad?
spice dagger
Impostor syndrome (also known as impostor phenomenon, impostorism, fraud syndrome or the impostor experience) is a psychological pattern in which an individual doubts their accomplishments and has a persistent internalized fear of being exposed as a "fraud".
Basically lacking confidence in your own accomplishments
frosty granite
oof
merry tartan
I was a fraud once but then I found the light switch once the lights are on I am never a fraud
frosty granite
that's exactly how I feel when I draw something
lmao Vexar stop trolling 😂 too funny
west sonnet
This is not the channel to troll. Please move on
spice dagger
Yeah this is pretty offtopic anyway.
merry tartan
those were honest questions
merry tartan
ok real question I have been making games for 30 years and feel like I am too old to deal with it anymore but its all I know what I can do with my skills besides games and movies?
spice dagger
What are your qualifications?
What are your interests?
frosty granite
and are you working currently?
plucky hatch
There is still a strong demand for web programmers
And for some reasons, it seems that programmers don't want to do web programming either (javascript, angular, React, etc.)
It seems that programmers tend to prefer trying to find jobs in video games or desktop apps.
dusty verge
most of the new programmer only have knowledge of C++ or C# or both
merry tartan
I always wanted to be a web monkey
harsh brook
Give me C or give me death! (Python and bash are cool though)
hollow pivot
@merry tartan ok real question I have been making games for 30 years and feel like I am too old to deal with it anymore but its all I know what I can do with my skills besides games and movies?
So you are saying you make games for a living, but do not want to
Funny how that works. Some strive to build a career in game dev, and others strive to escape a career in game dev
merry tartan
it was joke I am lifer I will die at my kb
its all I wanted to do since I was 8 years old now almost 50
my tombstone already reads Game Developer
hollow pivot
why you play with my emotions like that
remote saffron
fortunately I'm immune: you can't have impostor syndrome if you have no accomplishments
frozen remnant
@harsh brook There are no studios around me to look for any internships they offer haha
not even in the radius of about 250kms
well there are one or two but they are busy and don't offer anything
even companies working with graphics programming and other engine level stuff are very rare and don't offer anything
web and mobile are everywhere tho
but I'm not interested in them at all so yeah
west sonnet
Hate to break it to you but you don't have a choice when getting your foot in the door. Leave that pickiness behind.
ionic rose
What transfer service do you all use to receive money from other countries? Australia specifically if possible. I feel like I'm throwing away money with paypal's exchange rate.
lilac walrus
some people use Transferwise
Skrill used to be an option, but they did a dick move with their accounts system and now charge you for "inactivity"
ionic rose
ok, I'll look into that. Thanks
thick terrace
@ionic rose try popmoney. It works in the states. Free transfers up to $2500/mo
ionic rose
@thick terrace do you happen to know the fee for greater than 2500/mo off the top of your head?
thick terrace
no idea
ionic rose
ok thanks 😃
harsh brook
@frozen remnant if you wanna be in this industry you should get used to moving around. Don’t know a lot of game devs that haven’t moved at least 5 times for jobs
frozen remnant
@harsh brook I won't mind moving at all but I would have to finish uni first
just that this semester will be very relaxed since it's the last one so it would have been nice to get some experience during it
harsh brook
then you should just focus on your own projects and plan on a summer internship or start applying to jobs, the process takes at least a month ime
lilac walrus
accurate xD
plucky hatch
Say for example if my rate on my previous job is $400/month and my current asking salary is $600 - $800 with a year of exp and I saw a job posting that's looking for at least 1 year exp with salary range from $600 - $1000 and I manage to get an interview, is it okay if I say my asking rate to be around $700?
I'm just worried that if I had an idea with regards to the rate they're gonna give I might ask for more and that might come as negative to them because they might see it as being greedy given that I'm asking for a lot more than my previous. (my previous was a startup company that doesn't have any profit yet so the rate is relatively low compared to established companies)
btw the numbers are just for the sake of example
flat gazelle
Ask for what you think you are worth. If they think it's too high they will negotiate. If they get insulted and call it off, you have probably dodged a bullet as they clearly wouldn't value you, which would come with a whole host of other problems.
hybrid phoenix
Yup
That's my take on it as well
If they're reasonable and you go too high, they'll negotiate (unless they already think you're not a suitable candidate, which is a different problem entirely)
If they're put off by you going too high and they suddenly don't want you anymore... Well... What? That's just silly, and I wouldn't want to work with an ethic like that
fading yoke
In order to negotiate you have to be able to say no. In my experience, nobody negotiates.
flat gazelle
I've only skipped negotiating twice. My very first job and the one where they straight up accepted my high anchor.
Other than those I negotiated for every freelance fee and every salary.
lilac walrus
I've found more often than not that few companies even bother arguing when you give them the higher number
...and have noticed that those that do argue tend to have other problems
flat gazelle
I agree to an extent. Especially with salaries. With freelance fees, I am more open to negotiations as if it's a two day job, they better believe they are paying full price. But if they are interested in six months full time, I'm happy to lower my baserate. So as long as the expectations are the same on both sides, there shouldn't be any huge surprises.
honest cipher
more than once ive overballed myself
and the other guy accepted
every time, when asked, just go higher than what you actually think its logical
if it goes well, then you just got a raise
if it doesnt, you can negotiate
hybrid phoenix
Yup, my experience as well
hollow pivot
Is it feasible to work in game dev with no prior aaa title under your belt? Every job i see requires having shipped aaa titles
By feasible i mean. Salary is min 50k a year for entry level. Hours are 6 - 8 hours a day
I have no experience with the gaming industry
kindred mason
@hollow pivot
first question- is it feasbile to work in game dev without no prior aaa title - Yes
50k/year entry level, possibly. Depends on the job.
Having no experience whatsoever... tough sell for most
But, you said "gaming industry", so what experience do you have?
hollow pivot
Experience is there. Just not previously employed as a game dev
Busy building portfolio
Hows the hours?
kindred mason
So, you do have experience?
hollow pivot
6 - 8 hours a day?
kindred mason
Everyone's hours are different
hollow pivot
Yes. Can BP sufficiently n released 2 mediocre games
kindred mason
on Steam?
hollow pivot
I want to break into game dev as a job. When we immigrate. But have family. Not keen on 12 hour days every day
No. Steam one cancelled
Mobile
hybrid phoenix
Using gamedev to immigrate to somewhere without serious experience under your belt is going to be tough
hollow pivot
So just normal working hours
kindred mason
it depends where you work
hollow pivot
No im hitching a ride on wife’s papers
dense isle
yep, but it is a gamedev. Crunches are expected
digital gate
everywhere I've ever interviewed and asked about, they've had normal hours.
kindred mason
hitching a ride on wife's papers...what lol
hollow pivot
Crunches are fine. I have that now
digital gate
You have to be approved to work in the country you get to though
hollow pivot
Ireland
kindred mason
Hm
digital gate
Like. you.
kindred mason
I don't know crap about EU
dense isle
Gamedev in Ireland ?
hybrid phoenix
Depends on wife's papers
hybrid phoenix
If she's got a working visum, you'll need to get one yourself afaik
hollow pivot
Ye. They have a few. Wife gets in, i go with, 2 months then im allowed to work
dense isle
Ah, ok. Plenty of studios there
hybrid phoenix
Alright
digital gate
'kay if you've already asked
kindred mason
Let's just assume he's done the hw
digital gate
well you can
hollow pivot
Im in infosec atm. So was curious if game devs work absurd hours non stop
hollow pivot
Ok, so contracts has perks
digital gate
Smalltime indies do
digital gate
Technically as a contractor (at least remote) you work whenever you want
kindred mason
Anyway, yeah, if you want more 'comfy hours", more wiggle room, your best bet is Indie Studio
hollow pivot
Cool. Glad to hear its still just work
hybrid phoenix
Though that also heavily depends on the indie 😛
hybrid phoenix
There's also "Work your ass off because we might go bankrupt if we don't" indie
hollow pivot
Ye. When i did indie before going bankrupt it was 16 hours a day, 7 days a week
kindred mason
Well...
digital gate
I might be getting a contract position onsite soon, from that specific situation it seems set up so that I'd be FTE but not at the studio itself
kindred mason
I could sit here and say you did it "wrong"
digital gate
so still enforced hours/benefits
honest cipher
indies fail becouse we dont have contacts nor even know what we are doing to begin with
kindred mason
Ehh
digital gate
And goosey, that's what I meant by smalltime indies :P
honest cipher
thats why im following a progression (deathwave->multigames->dwvr->pubg(spy)->next project)
kindred mason
I don;t know. I know a lot of Indies that know wtf they are doing, but struggle
honest cipher
yeah but at least those have a chance
hollow pivot
I concur. I quit my job to make games then realized i never even opened any game dev tool
kindred mason
Contacts and Marketing play a lot
honest cipher
most indies struggle and have 0 chance of ever paying back
hybrid phoenix
There's lots of other reasons indies struggle
honest cipher
i see it in conventions in spain
hybrid phoenix
But a very significant amount barely gets of the ground because of what is basically incompetence
honest cipher
tons of indies who worked their ass off and they are clearly going to fail spectacularly
hybrid phoenix
And they don't see where they're going wrong
digital gate
pubg(funds) you mean LUL
honest cipher
"we have been working every day for the last 3 years"
hollow pivot
Planning?
hybrid phoenix
(Don't mean to sound like a dick here, that's just my observation, also having mentored other indies)
hybrid phoenix
Smaller projects
honest cipher
short projects, that get published
hybrid phoenix
See what sticks
honest cipher
exactly
hybrid phoenix
Roll with that
hollow pivot
Fail fast fail often
hybrid phoenix
Build up your knowledge, fanbase, finances and network
honest cipher
i knew a team who did that damn well
on the mobile market
2 guys, a programmer and a pixel artist
hybrid phoenix
(I'm failing spectacularly on all that myself, but hey)
honest cipher
they did one game every 2 or 3 weeks
hybrid phoenix
I intended to do that with my working partner
honest cipher
after a few months they had a sizeable fanbase + a shit ton of small mobile games
hybrid phoenix
Except he's now sucked up in other projects
So ya know
Bit stuck with that plan
hollow pivot
Just steal good concepts
hybrid phoenix
😛
hybrid phoenix
Always important to keep your work ethic
honest cipher
but they were going damn well for a while
hybrid phoenix
By work ethic I mean keeping your hours in check and such
hybrid phoenix
Not forcing yourself to work sixteen hours a day because "It'll help my business!"
There's some cases where it can be needed for a bit
flat gazelle
AAA is a job like any other. Normal hours. Occasional overtime. If you are unlucky and end up at a studio stuck in ten years ago, there can be extended periods of crunch. These days, it's quite heavily fought.
hybrid phoenix
But that really shouldn't be an ongoing thing
flat gazelle
Hell, I have paid overtime.
dense isle
Yeah, AAA is a better option imo too
hollow pivot
So devs get overtime?
flat gazelle
Some
dense isle
at the end of the project sure
flat gazelle
Not super common yet but it's getting there
it's a lot more mature now than just a decade ago
harsh brook
In US it depends on salary, if you're salaried overtime isn't guaranteed but you have to make 75+ I believe to be salaried
hourly is paid overtime ime
flat gazelle
EU also regulates the amount of overtime you are allowed to do
Though, that doesn't always mean much.
Depending on the studio...
hollow pivot
Cool, helps me know what questions to ask
If i get an interview
Otherwise... hobby
harsh brook
best thing you can do for yourself is get to a point where everyone wants you, gives you a better stool to stand on when it comes to any negotiations
social media / portfolios can help in this regard
hollow pivot
Can you use games as portfolio pieces? Heres my cv, heres the dl links for my games?
harsh brook
definitely, but you should do a breakdown on what exactly you added to the game
flat gazelle
best breakdown
harsh brook
then make sure to say that and go in depth on the things you are proud of
hollow pivot
Oh so even if u did all art, code and sound u still break down?
harsh brook
whatever you are most proud of, AAA wants specialists not generalists
speaking broadly of course
harsh brook
probably going to want to look to indie then wearing lots of hats is important in that area
harsh brook
for mobile dev it has been important in general Iv noticed to actually
like King and them tend to like generalists from my expierence
hollow pivot
Dont u call that a technical artist now?
dense isle
well, i would suggest to specify what position you want and then aim your portfolio at that specific position
tech art is very blurred position
hollow pivot
I want the ‘i wanna math sht’ job
flat gazelle
King sent me a recruitment mail today and I am very much a specialist 😛
dense isle
companies have different requirements, even braches for tech art
harsh brook
you're also in the 'everyone wants to hire' boat though haha
flat gazelle
lol
harsh brook
tech art is pretty broad though can mean pretty much anything gotta read the job description
dense isle
we have like anim tech art, level tech art , associate producer tech art and so on
lilac walrus
....yeah, but it's King
spare jasper
are fan created assets from games portfolio-appropriate?
spare jasper
Huh, hadn't thought of it like that.
My thing was that it's not really something of mine in totality
*thinking
As in, creating an original modular brownstone asset would be preferable to something I see in RE or L4d
west sonnet
You're basically saying, "I'm better than the guy you hired for this previous project you slaved over"
spare jasper
Right
In that case, would having things like that on the same website be OK, if I made it clear that it was done for fun or for some other learning purpose, or would it be best to keep that to a different blog?
dense isle
Well, I kinda disagree. If you take the concept art from a game and make a model from it , it is your model and your skills
I mean, look at all start-wars themed models\characters .
west sonnet
Pulled from concepts are great
Mimicking existing models is going to hurt you on the other hand
spare jasper
That's true. My thinking was that I was going to rebuild the first level from No Mercy and build it in UE4 using assets and materials I create, but I figured If I'm not doing anything gameplay wise, I may as well just create an original scene.
And ditch the rebuild part.
dense isle
Well, If you do for example a fresh take (or current gen) on something like CS_Embassy form CS , it would be great. I don't see any mimicking there
But if you will take part of a Doom(latest one) level and recreate it , it would probably suck
west sonnet
In short, if you're going to compare your build with an existing one. Your work better be badass 😉
spare jasper
That makes sense, since the geometry in embassy is so primitive, there's a lot of room there to put my vision and skill to work
Yep, thanks for clearing that up guys!
plucky hatch
3D Savage is an educational website for aspiring game developers and industry professionals. If you are new to the industry and want to learn more about the different careers, I invite you to visit the general section of the website. The website just got launched last week, more content will be added over time either by me or other contributors (industry vets).
plucky hatch
💗
flat gazelle
I like it! It's a blast from the past. The page design and "Careers" decriptions are very 2010. Brings back memories
west sonnet
Love it. Wished I had a similar resource when I was a wee dumb kid 😄
plucky hatch
Yep, that's precisely why I'm building that website. Got 3 degrees (game/level design/3d modeling for games and software rogramming) and I'm really unhappy with the current state of our education system. I'll cover the fundamentals with 3D Savage and i'll make sure that all the educational content is approved by other industry vets.
But on top of that I'm giving access (shortcut) to some of the best online learning resources.
mortal raven
Another Chris here in Tucson, Az is running a game dev meetup that focuses on education as well! Really good group of people. I like this trend of professionals enriching their environments with learning opportunities. Education in games especially is eternally out of touch with reality and I hate it.
dense needle
Companies should focus more on teaching within. Like a blacksmith taking on an apprentice. This is still common in Japan. That's how we got Xeno Saga, Vagrant Story, Resident Evil 2.
harsh sinew
@dense needle There is no reason for companies to do it, there are enough people with skill that they can hire without wasting time, but I think most AAA studios also do teach at least the ones Im familiar with always have some classes and people are always helping each other learn, but even so they keep an entrance level requirement.
Besides I think with the internet there are so many people that know how to do things, it would be kinda strange to take in the guy who didn't learn when there are so many self-taught who are pretty good already.
dense needle
Actually a lot of the AAA companies train on site.
west sonnet
They’re also the ones who can afford to train. But they’re obviously going to invest in the most promising individuals. Not some clueless kids.
ocean harbor
Companies will teach you something that is specific to their pipeline. Like production specific tools, methods, best practices and etc. or you just learn it as you work.
There are many different ways how to do the same stuff, like character modeling or props. So one might be taught a standard company practice on how to do that. But that still has an expectation that you know how to use tools, unless they are very niche.
harsh sinew
Yes well tools are not the most important, they might hire someone with amazing sculpting skills and just teach them how to do poly modeling.
I know Blizzard and Sony have even hired clay sculptors before, and taught zbrush on the job, so yeah companies will sometimes do this but its not like they will hire a complete beginner actually you must be pretty amazing for this to happen.
I guess the best studios usually value the core skills above anything else.
supple timber
do i need a degree to become a game developer?
lilac walrus
that would depend on what job you want to do
but essentially any work that demonstrates that you can do it
character artists will have a portfolio of characters, as an example
supple timber
are you sure that i dont need a university degree?
lilac walrus
pretty sure
flat gazelle
Very sure
lilac walrus
I mean, I don't have one 😛
flat gazelle
It won't hurt, but it's not needed
supple timber
its not an easy decision
narrow vigil
I'm sure that having a degree wouldn't hurt, but from basically everyone I have talked to has said you don't need a degree, if you have a good portfolio.
shadow kelp
degree worth it? Depends where you are. Got free higher education? Probably worthwhile taking the time. Saddling yourself with debt for the rest of your life? Maybe not....
kindred mason
rest of your life very extreme
In the USA, you're looking at anywhere between 5-10 years to repay your student loans if you need them
A lot sooner if you actually land a six-figure job off the bat
lilac walrus
most people in games don't have six figure jobs
kindred mason
Oh, but they are out there
lilac walrus
the vast majority do not
kindred mason
That's not the point anyway
lilac walrus
it's 100% the point - if your peak career salary is in the order of $80k, it's going to take a lot longer to pay back those loans
kindred mason
Anyway, I'll pass over ignorance real quick for now
But, typically, you're seeing at repaying your student loans in the USA anywhere between 5-10 years, unless you are absolutely stupid with your money.
Which admittedly could be the case for some folks.
Most people will be able to get grants.
Most will be able to get quite a bit money back in taxes during their college years.
Some students are even smart enough to have jobs while they are in college (which man...that's beyond me... college was hard enough as it was without a job)
lilac walrus
average graduate loan debt is a bit shy of $40k these days, with APRs around 6-8%
average salary for a game artist is less than $60k
kindred mason
But some of those students typically don't receive enough from the student loans, so they supplement.
first off, no one said anything about artist
But regardless. Let's use your example
$40k loans. $60k/yr job
10-year repayment. $460.32 a month (includes 6.8% interest)
Take out taxes and all that other stuff. $45,000 net / year
$3750/mo net
minus loan repayment
$3300/mo to do whatever you want
You will be paying a total of something around $55k in the end with interest.
But it will be paid off in 10 years.
There are also different plans, where you can pay smaller up front payment in the beginning, and increase them at the end... this helps because usually you will be getting promoted and earning more as time goes on
The only way you could NOT pay off your student loans in ten-years or less is if you really fucked up somewhere
That being said. the OG question was... do you need a degree for game dev? Obviously, the answer, since most of you don't have one, would be no. But, I can tell you that it will open up many more doors for you, especially if you are going for more technical jobs (i.e. programming)
shadow kelp
it's quite possible in the UK to leave university with a debt you'll never pay off
mainly as the repayment schemes are designed to keep people in debt rather then pay off the principal
kindred mason
Aye, I have no knowledge on educations and repayment anywhere but the USA. But I doubt it's that different
If they are designed that way, then it's up to the person to make sure they are smarter than the banks
lilac walrus
banks don't do the loans in the UK, the government does
kindred mason
But again, it seems that it would be very strange that No one in those governments would have said anything by now
Or tried to stand up for the little people
shadow kelp
point remains though, you gotta take into the account the total cost of your degree (the total repayment amount, including interest), versus your expected income delta over not having a degree
some countries it's a gimme
lilac walrus
pretty much
shadow kelp
i.e. if you have free university
lilac walrus
most European countries it's a no-brainer
kindred mason
How easy is it to get a technical game dev job in the EU?
On-site studios
without a degree
lilac walrus
at a junior level it's difficult - degree is irrelevant
the problem is sheer volume of applicants versus number of positions
kindred mason
Would having a degree increase someone's chances?
lilac walrus
chances of your CV even being looked at can be low
probably not, might help, might not
shadow kelp
compsci degree a definite plus for programming juniors
lilac walrus
software engineering also
the initial filter is the bit to get past though
which generally speaking is a portfolio link or attachment of some description
plus keywords in the CV or covering letter
honest cipher
in spain, a degree costs about 6000 euros (4 years)
CS degree
if you dont repeat courses and similar
and of course, thats if you dont get any grant
on the other hand, there are several times more CS graduates (and other engineering graduates) than there are jobs
so CS degree junior job in spain is barely 1.3x the minimum salary in spain
honest cipher
yes
thats for an engineering degree, grantless
other degrees are significantly cheaper
shadow kelp
degrees cost nothing in Germany afaik
well, not in fees anyway, you gotta feed yourself 😛
rich parcel
Make connections with people that you admire, LinkedIn, instagram, anything.
Once you're on their good side, you have won half of the battle
What's left is whether you have a decent portfolio to show and you not embarrassing yourself during the interview
west sonnet
Degree is great for immigration. I can’t speak for engineering or programming but if you’re going in for art, design, or game development. That expensive piece of paper called a degree will be amoung the worst decision in your life. Connections and a portfolio is what’s needed to get your foot in the door.
And luck
remote saffron
I don't think a university degree justifies the price these days... pretty much anything you need is out there in the internet and learning to use that knowledge to improve is one thing you will have to learn anyway
if you have the money or you have free education or one for a reasonable price, go for it, or at least give it a chance, if you would need to work to pay the fees or it would lead you to debt skip it imo
networking / social aspect of skipping university is a huge negative tho, you will have to find a way to overcome that (but if you would need to work during university you would be in a pretty bad position for those anyway, I worked full time for one semester only, it was manageable but not that much fun)
kindred mason
Well
At least in the USA, and I suppose I could speak for myself here... It's a lot easier to just go to college, learn what you can from there (and learn even more on your own), while accruing the debt (able to live with "financial freedom for 4 years), then go find a good job(s) to pay off the debt
I mean shoot...most of us go and get ourselves into a 30-year debt program
Just because we want to own our own houses
I'll say this. Any debt can be paid off.
remote saffron
learn even more is pretty important here too, doing just the must have part in university won't get anyone anywhere 😦
kindred mason
You just have to weigh the options ahead of time if it's for you.
Yeah... I learned that pretty quickly
They barely teach the basics
They don't have time to teach everyone first hand, and surely not in the few hours a week they have with you as a whole anyway
Depends on the class though
I learned a hell of a lot more in the painting/drawing classes because they were smaller... like 8-10 per class, I got to see the prof at least once per session (sometimes even more, because I sucked at first)
But the more tech classes (as I was going into gamedev classes), they were up to 30-something in a class
I rarely ever had any 1on1 time (but truthfully, I probably didn't need it as much as others, except maybe the techart stuff)
remote saffron
it's a kind of hard decision tbh, degree or not, depends a lot on your personality too, and most people who has to make it doesn't have a chance to make an informed decision 🤔
I think degree is definitely the easier way, but not necessary the better one 🤷
classes and teachers made a huge difference over here as well
kindred mason
Well, also it may depend on age, right.
And how people learn also.
Some people just don't learn in a classroom enviornment
west sonnet
They tend to be removed from the industry regardless. It's like you're in a bubble.
remote saffron
that's why I am terrible at probability theory and good at graph theory 🤦 cause of the teacher (and cause I never had to use the first one much anyway)
kindred mason
They still had companies they were working for in their off-time
harsh brook
Go to college for the college experience imo, my professors were decent but none of them could work in AAA today with their current skills. College is a nice place if you don't know for sure what you want to do though I got to dabble in many things I have no intention of touching anymore but at least I can say that I'm in the best field for what I enjoy.
plucky hatch
It's always difficult to tell people what path they should take to get a job in video games, because it's just different for most people. Technical school, college or University can look good on your resume, and I know some directors that prefer to hire game designers graduated from University. For programmer, University is a must. For all other jobs, education isn't very relevant.
I had discussion with lead artists and directors here in Montreal and there take was that, the portfolio matters a lot. However, they brought up another point. If it comes down to two candidates, they will not necessarily choose the one with the strongest portfolio. They will choose the one that is most likely to be the best team player, someone that will make the journey great. They might spend years working with that person.
Don't give up because you are unable to find jobs. The process is very random.
That said, it's not all that random. There is a skill factor involved where if you arent good enough you really wont find work.
If you are oky, it's going to be difficult because a lot of people apply at that level.
And if you are really really good, it will be really easy for you to get jobs and gain visibility.
That said, it's more difficult to show your value as a game/level designer than it is for artists.
chrome bone
i can count on one hand the amount of level designers i have met who understand front to back what it entails.
the unfortunate (or perhaps fortunate) fact is that role is highly fragmented now.
so people tend to specialize in something and then in our case they train into a level designer in the grand sense on the job.
id say its OK for example to just have a strong aptitude for something like world machine and just milk the hell out of that skill while learning on the job.
remote saffron
For programmer, University is a must.
``` Nope.^ I've worked along side a large number of programmers who don't have degrees
most of them however did kick arse
sudden island
are you indie or AAA?
lilac walrus
I'm in AAA
sudden island
oh interesting, i always see programmer job posts requiring a comp sci degree but i guess some studios are more open
i dont mean that in a negative way btw
lilac walrus
almost every advert will include 'degree', but don't worry about that
if you have really good examples of your work, you'll usually get past it
released mods and hobbyist games, or tech demos will go a lot further than just that piece of paper
west sonnet
But, but I spent several grands on that piece of paper!
lilac walrus
well, hopefully you also learnt something whilst getting that piece of paper :p
west sonnet
Though honestly I have yet to see a listing that didn’t include a degree yet rarely does the hiring manager ever consider it
lilac walrus
I don't think I've seen many games industry job postings of any kind that didn't include a degree in the listing, but it's one of those things
sudden island
also i may soon in the next few weeks have a job opportunity for a tech artist that's paid which is fun
are there any experienced tech artists hanging around here?
lilac walrus
Tech art can be fun - is that going to be on the materials / animation / VFX side of things?
sudden island
so to be totally honest, no idea, we're working with a client in arch viz and awaiting them to tell us what they need
lilac walrus
probably materials orientated
sudden island
they're still making decisions about whether to use houdini or to explore other tools etc. so it's a bit messy
lilac walrus
doh
sudden island
which is also really awkward when im talking to some people who i know would be potentially well suited like "hey so i got this potential gig coming up but i dont know any details but whats your availability like"
lilac walrus
yeah, it's always really annoying
I've been on the end of a few of those and it's basically annoying for everyone involved
usually because the company itself is waiting for their end client to pull their fingers out of their arses
sudden island
i mean im not annoyed at the company at all, they're new to game dev concepts and so they're still learning
and trying to find the best way to do things
west sonnet
It makes them a risky client however
sudden island
we'll see
serene lava
Job hunting tip: push, push, push, push, push, push, push
be incredibly persistent
Push for as long as it takes
lilac walrus
also keep making cool stuff
if you keep making things, you get better at making things, which means your portfolio only keeps getting better too
sudden island
@serene lava have you gotten a job
serene lava
yeet
well
not recently or anything
I got one in the industry as QA at Monolith in Apr 2017, then as a Gameplay Scripter at Build a Rocket Boy in Aug 2017, where I'm still at now
honest cipher
@remote saffron fun that you comment being terribly at probability and graph theory. In my case it was almost the reverse LMAO. I passed probability by studying 2 days (khan academy is a gift from heaven) , and didnt get a perfect mark in graphs due to the weird math-y notation of stuff
but in my case, i arrived with some prior knowledge of both. For probability i had been dealing with probabilistic AIs and rpg stats for a while, and for graphs they are very closely related to coding and state machines
khan academy best every time. Its incredibly how its nearly every time better than teachers
remote saffron
I am good with graph theory. I passed probability exam with one night study cause it was a bad joke - too easy exam. Thats why i am terrible at it. I'll have to fix that one day
honest cipher
@remote saffron the cool thing as a programmer
is that if you have doubts about some probability thing
you can bruteforce it
distant holly
I have a question! I'm currently looking for a summer internship as part of my degree, but I was wondering if it would also be acceptable to apply for actual positions? Like junior or entry level? Or is that considered a big "do not do"
hybrid phoenix
If you've got the portfolio and time to actually get into said positions, sure
But if you've only got e.g. three months of part-time work, I don't think companies will be particularly eager to hire you as junior
(Or even three months of full-time; juniors take a lot of training, so really, you'd just take the training and be gone again, and they do have to pay you like a proper employee)
distant holly
Thank you! I was curious while looking over some positions, and its been a bit difficult to navigate but I understand what you mean! The time thing is the dicey bit XD.
west sonnet
There are contract work however. Look into those
dire furnace
anyone here work in a QA or design roll?
plucky hatch
Did Microsoft compliance & functionality testing for 2 years. Game/game level designer for 4+.
Why?
dire furnace
Ive been trying to land a Intermediate lvl or entry level, only to get a interview and no response. I think its just much of my area where i am and theres not lot of jobs in the sector where i live
Trying to be confident, maybe i need to change few thingsetc
plucky hatch
Recruiters want to see a page filled with maps
They want to see that you understand how to make game/level design documents.
It's easier to get a job as a level designer than it is to land a job as a game designer
If you have further questions about game design we should move to the Game Design channel. Or level design for level design.
There isnt a channel for QA.
Because as you might notice nobody cares about QA
dire furnace
Can i personally ask you for advice on this stuff? ive gone to 3 interviews and im not sure where im going wrong
plucky hatch
You just PM me any time
winged vigil
I'm a beginner trying to learn an engine for a school project. I have a year to do this and I think that UE4 looks like the most viable game engine to use as I have some C++ experience. Should I stick to Blueprints or using C++?
plucky hatch
C++ will always be better. Designers and programmers often use Blueprints to prototype stuff and then engineers turn blueprints into C++ for optim.
You can still make full games with blueprints, just know it's not ideal for performances.
Visit the blueprint and cpp channel for more details.
hybrid phoenix
*Note about that non-idealness of Blueprint... It really depends on the scope of your game, but for most small-scope singleplayer games it's absolutely fine to stick with blueprints all the way through
plucky hatch
Fun video
https://youtu.be/8gVixDglpQ4
hybrid phoenix
Did not know Nativization made that much of a difference
urban stump
Compilers are able to optimize a lot of stuff automatically, where Blueprint out of the box just can't do it
That's why a lot of stuff like firing a million loops is faster in C++ when it's the same code as blueprint
fickle hatch
This is not career advice 😐
urban stump
It's not! Aside from just saying "learn C++" 😛
plucky hatch
Takes what is useful, discard what's not.
snow yarrow
Too bad Nativization never works for big Blueprints :D
errant pine
https://www.artstation.com/cameroncasey I am currently creating a new environment with lots of vegetation to add to my portfolio. I tried to apply places with what I have with no luck. If you see anything that would make people not want to hire me other than the lack of quantity feel free to tell me so that I can have a better chance next time around. Thanks!
dusk raptor
every time I see a raptor in that position in reminds me of the raptor shaped earth meme
errant pine
lmao I hadnt seen that meme but it does look just like it
dusk raptor
😄
tacit heath
is stuff like minimax and a* pathfinding common knowledge for a games programmer or merely a benefit .... since I really struggle to fully understand/ recreate these algorithms :/
remote saffron
the ability to understand them is important, but maybe you could start with simpler examples - or find a better explanation
lilac walrus
they're the kinds of algorithms I would expect gameplay programmers to be familiar with
remote saffron
I wrote an A* on my first test for a game company 😂
wasn't specified but it was pathfinding
lilac walrus
A* is pretty standard, hehe
tacit heath
mhhhh... i see... then i guess i continue researching. haven't found a source yet that is not completely overwhelming and hard to follow
hybrid phoenix
I know how A* works
Just wouldn't really have a clue how to write it myself or how to make it efficient
tacit heath
i know on a very high level how it works, also for minimax... but I have no clue how to write it........ not even for a console application
i get the stuff with g cost and heuristic h cost and f ... but that doesnt mean i got any clue how to implement stuff like that xD
remote saffron
my version was terrible too regarding performance and wasn't 100% perfect, but it found the goal most of the time so they accepted it cause of time constraints and stuff
imo it is highly recommended to practice implementing e.g. graph based algorithms
maybe simple BFS/DFS is a good start
tacit heath
bfs/dfs?
lilac walrus
breadth first / depth first search
brisk anchor
¨Would that be what UE4 does when you check the reference viewer ?
something along those lines .. ?
harsh brook
A* is important to show a knowledge of heuristics and can be used to show knowledge of recursion, so pretty important imo as those are a couple of my favorite concepts.
lilac walrus
recursion is my favourite way to epicly break things 😄
harsh brook
Me too 😄
Are internships a good path to employment in a company? Trying to not get my hopes up but I’d like to work for this company for a while if possible
lilac walrus
they definitely can be depending on the company
remote saffron
in my experience they usually hire interns to see if they are good hires or not
well in ideal case
if they hire interns cause they work cheap then most likely it is better not to work there anyway 🤷
harsh brook
That’s what I was thinking good to hear it from someone else. Just gotta prove my metal in those few months
flat gazelle
Taking on an intern without the intent to hire them makes no fincancial sense, unless it's a very scummy company that use them as free labour. Mentoring and teaching an intern is a net cost as it takes time from a more senior person. That said, it doesn't always work out but I've hired all interns I've mentored.
harsh brook
perfect its a vfx role in AAA so hearing that from you really helps
flat gazelle
Hehe, I had to decline an applicant as we don't do internships at my current job. I hired him a month later instead.
VFX is a pretty safe bet if you're decent at it
harsh brook
I'm getting better all the time 😄 its been a hard field to get my foot in the door though
flat gazelle
Yeah, the barrier of entry is quite high as you need to know so many different areas relatively well.