the issue in the US is that 50% of the people didnt even vote to begin with
#career-chat
honest cipher
becouse the entire thing is completely corrupted top to down, so people get pissed
gerrymandering and stuff
remote saffron
go to #lounge please, this is #career-chat (also obviously don't be a politician guys)
elder mist
@remote saffron hah, i was typing the same thing
fickle hatch
@kindred mason if I'm that person you can always tell me even if you think it might be rude 😄
flat gazelle
There is a lot of growing up that needs to happen in this channel. When you work in a studio, it's a profession. Act accordingly.
fickle hatch
I wouldn't expect everyone who I met in gamedev to be professional, but I certainly talk more to people who are at least somewhat reserved in the way they speak
west sonnet
To be fair, many here are aspiring or just entering the world of game development let alone the industry.
flat gazelle
So those of us already in the industry should try to set good examples I think.
fickle hatch
Everyone should try to set a good example even if they aren't in the industry, but will they 😄
plucky hatch
I expect that less than 3% of professional game devs actually visit Discord or Polycount, etc.
I also expect that there is a minority that isn't very sane, addicted to internet.
fickle hatch
My personal experience is that they do, but they all sit in the small private closed up servers/chatrooms on every kind of messenger/realtime chat
But that is based on just one group of friends and developers, so it's a worthless anecdote
plucky hatch
What I find particularly amusing is if you visit polycount, the mods and old timers there tend to talk as if they represent the industry.
So like, if they make fun of 1 user, they would say like ''you are a running gag in the industry'', but in reality... more like a running gag within less than 3% of the industry. And that's just 3% of artists...
😂
flat gazelle
It is a very small industry though. Some peoples antics do get passed around.
harsh brook
Its been two weeks since a phone interview should I reach out to the HR rep or keep silent and wait?
also @flat gazelle thanks for your tutorials man I only wish you had more
flat gazelle
Send them a mail thanking for the interview and ask if they need any more info or whatever.
I hope I'll have time to make some more
west sonnet
You can reach out. Politely of course
harsh brook
Thats what I was thinking just wanted to check with the experts 🙂
west sonnet
What’s this awesome tutorial you speak of?
harsh brook
Well the main one was his pluralsight tutorial it really fleshed out the artsy side of particle systems that I wasn't getting anywhere else, but he has also done multiple smaller ones for sidefx
dense needle
@plucky hatch It's not that we don't visit. It's that we disappear for large periods of time. We work long hours.
steel creek
It is a very small industry though. Some peoples antics do get passed around. very much so
fickle hatch
I hope that I can be a part of gamedev community even if my main thing is engineering
If you guys think I'm acting inappropriately in some way, just tell me
harsh brook
The info and thanks email worked well. Darn holiday season makes me feel like a Grinch haha
plucky hatch
@dense needle
im saying you are an extreme minority. Most game devs don't use discord and visit unreal slackers at all.
Many devs don't even play games or do anything game related after work.
One thing for sure, the devs that, after work, are active members of polycount, unreal slackers or other similar network made game dev their lifestyle.
They might care more than others about game dev or their craft.
However, because those individuals are active... and visible, they have a voice, they can have a greater influence on the industry.
By example, artists like Tor Frick, Warren Marshall, Vaughan Ling, William Vaughan, James O'Hare (aka Farfarer) or even myself a few years ago were so active and present online, we had a direct influence on the development of Modo and its community.
The Foundry was like, what do game artists need, what should we add to our next update. And we could make suggestions that would make it into to the next updates of Modo. Modo 10, 11 and 12 were very game oriented.
Some im not saying ''we are a minority'' as in it's a bad thing.
It's a great thing. if we can use it wisely.
harsh brook
The bulk of developers are 25+ so that’s something to keep in mind. Most people decide to start families and have lives outside of work by that point. Outliers exist but aren’t anymore common than other industries ime
flat gazelle
We gettin old
harsh brook
"The young eat the old, if you let them" great Rick and Morty line
But for reals we need the experienced people, most of what I know was picked up from you, Mike Lyndon, Luiz Kruel, and Ryan Brucks, alongside Jon Lindquists documentation that is heavy af, without y'all I wouldn't really know much about the industry and I went to college for this stuff lmao
flat gazelle
I'm very ok with that. I'll do what I can to pave the way for people much younger and smarter than me.
fickle hatch
I love teaching and helping people of any skill level
flat gazelle
Same
harsh brook
I hope to one day give back more, my tutorials aren't numerous yet but its mainly because pivot painter 2.0 has been breaking my brain for a couple months now
But I mean seriously I spent 3 years in school, and the one year I spent prioritizing lessons from individuals online caused more growth than all of those combined. So I am forever grateful. I doubt I would get emails from AAA companies if it wasn't for your guys willingness to throw up tutorials.
fickle hatch
Also unrelated, but to the topic of this channel, I'm gonna whine about the stress and pressure of doing own game under own company
Just please please can we get lucky already and meet people we need
harsh brook
where are you located? I know I'm in a pretty crap locale for good talent luckily I found a weird way to work in the industry until I get into games
fickle hatch
California, Czechia, Russia
I have the team of guys to do this, just struggling with the usual bane of all development - funding
I could only fund it so much, but need to finish it up
harsh brook
That's rough, I wish you the best though and I at least am always open to venting. Its not healthy to internalize
fickle hatch
We have an offer, but that offer is really not leaning in our favor (very much so)
harsh brook
There's a local company that was offered 500,000 for their venture 4 months before selling to another company for 8 billion. Not saying thats what will happen but it is something to keep in mind
fickle hatch
Yeah. This offer isn't good for us, but it's not unreasonable, so we'll just keep it around while looking for more stuff. Just been so long, we want to get our game out before we have to essentially go back to square one or something
harsh brook
The nice part about having one game done is that you now have everything that was used to make the first title. I don't think enough people respect the idea of having a pool of assets on hand for future titles
fickle hatch
This publisher wants a game that is smaller than what we're working on, that's kind of where the problem comes from
We have a concept that works only with some set of features, but they are not interested in those features
Without that set of features, we don't have any edge and there's no reason to buy our game over others
harsh brook
Games are a business like any other now its kind of sad, gotta please that board
fickle hatch
So we would only be limited to some baseline level of sales because there is a certain group of people who buy all products like ours
steel creek
I don't think enough people respect the idea of having a pool of assets on hand for future titles crazy cause that is all we do in TV -- reuse, recycle
harsh brook
Well game companies are starting to realize it, the positions I'm in process for are all asset management system creation jobs, but it definitely isn't a standard for game companies yet
fickle hatch
Our assets are kinda limited to only a specific genre of games, but we are working from the start by correctly filing everything so it can be easily re-used in the future
steel creek
sell them shotgun
fickle hatch
The nature of our game (subway train sim) means that we just do this big chunk of work once right now, but just re-use same assets till infinity later
With only some principal things having to be unique for some future expansions/versions/whatever
harsh brook
Those honestly make a ridiculous amount of money off dlc
steel creek
same thing for series TV. Pre-pro first season does 85% bulk of assetitation -- after that its all specific call outs per episode
fickle hatch
The funding we want is for that remaining bulk of assets and artwork almost entirely
steel creek
no surprise -- its the most costly
harsh brook
I work in previs currently and its been an interesting experience for assets. Some wish to use their assets some just want a blockout pretty diverse
Wonder how much you could create procedurally, as you are on tracks most the time so hero assets would only be necessary around the primary area
fickle hatch
@steel creek the only unusual thing is that our programming costs are at the floor, since I don't get paid and I do all the important coding, the other coder on the team has low salary (but average to good by local standards of where he lives). We have a ton of programming work and are lucky to get it for ridiculously cheap
It didn't make sense for me to pay myself
steel creek
nice
fickle hatch
So
steel creek
yeah, that always sucks... pay myself, or fund this shit....
fickle hatch
That makes me bash head against table and just whine in frustration
Of sitting on a project that is (for now) timely, has a team, workflows and I can be fully honest about the state of it, the plans, etc
It's super frustrating. You always have to paint things a little brighter than they are to get people interested, but with this I don't need to paint all that much, the most complex stuff that defines our project is done already
It's behind us, the simulation models need lots of tuning and work, but I can skip all that work and it'll still be what we promised. Now it's just the art stopping us
But that's enough of whining
harsh brook
Hope you feel better 😄
Remember christmas is coming up and you are a person outside of work 😄
fickle hatch
Not really. If it was only about me, I'd feel just fine
This stuff is less stressful than trying to demonstrate a UAV that I know isn't finished and doing final testing & configuration on the field of the military test range
In front of the military generals who are growing impatient
The part that really makes me feel bad is that the guys in my team also need to live their life
They need money for rent, food and they need to feel comfortable so they could pursuit their own stuff and not just kinda crunch through with us with an unpredictable salary schedule
harsh brook
They wouldn't be there if they didn't have some level of respect and trust in you though
remote saffron
yeah but that's what makes it stressful
harsh brook
I'm underpaid but I also like my employer and haven't found a better spot so I'm actually decently happy money isn't everything
fickle hatch
Yes, but realtalk, we have been pushing the limits of trust and respect - entirely consciously and mutually agreeing to it with our team - but still, pushing it
harsh brook
like the alternative for me is working IT where'd I'd make double but I hatedddd IT
fickle hatch
We told them many times that they are free to pursuit other projects, they agreed to stick around, but no matter how you look at it, we are pushing our trust and respect to the reasonable limit
On the bright side, if we crash and burn, at least we have made morally right decisions and did the best we could, did not leave anyone but me and my business partner feeling broken 😄
harsh brook
What more could anyone ask?
fickle hatch
And we have that sweet massive chunk of engineering and gamedev assets & data that is more valuable than our entire company...
dense needle
@plucky hatch You'll find most of us on twitter. Where we can do the bare minimum on social media.
Lol play games. Who has time for that?
west sonnet
If you like playing games, making games is the worst career choice in that regard 😜
plucky hatch
Depends
If you ran out of games to play and are looking for the next big thing. maybe you might want to make it yourself
😂
Personally, I'm a big fan of competitive multiplayer FPS games and after Quake 3 Arena, it kind of died there too
Halo 2 was cool in certain areas, even better. But overall, FPS players from my era are still waiting for the next big thing
dense needle
I had enough free time to beat Trails of Cold Steel. It took me over a year.
Then I found out there are 4 games...
plucky hatch
hahahaha
spice dagger
Guys, moving a little offtopic here.
dense needle
Around this time of the year 80% of people are clocked out for vacation. I recommend using it to work on resumes, applications, build up a list of potential employers.
nova locust
well boys
i got an email saying they have good news and theyre gonna call me tomorrow
spring laurel
Awesome!
west sonnet
\o/
nova locust
yesss
dense needle
Was that the Obsidian thing?
nova locust
yup
dense needle
Good luck. Expect a job test at some point.
Whenever stuck, invert the problem. It's helped me a ton of times.
steel creek
GG
harsh brook
If it’s your first programming interview test you might want to go through some online examples. I know I flunked my first two for a myriad of reasons
Mainly coding with an interviewer watching can be stressful if unacclimated
spring laurel
This is probably a silly question: Is it worth going into QA with a company when you want to make games for a living? I'm out of college with a computer science degree, with an area of concentration in game design. It's been forever since I've actually programmed anything cause I had to jump into working immediately and where I used to live there were no game companies and didn't really have the opportunity to move. Now I'm moved to Florida, wanting to join the game field, but I can't seem to find any jobs that are... within my scope, but I feel like I can do QA.
dense needle
A lot of people start out in Q/A. Technically I started out as a beta tester for Diablo 2. Remote, not local.
Still the best beta I ever did. Final Fantasy 15 beta was a nightmare.
spring laurel
How would I find out if any game companies in my area have a remote option? Would I just have to send an email inquiring then?
dense needle
Beta has changed a lot over the years. For Star Craft 2 Activision had you pay them to enter late stage beta.
It used to be a sign up on the main site. Some still do it. Plenty of indie games need beta testers. Ultimately it's what you're good at. If you like coding, get into that area. If it's art, go for 3d/2d. Tons of choices.
spring laurel
Sadly, I'm kinda middling on a lot of those. But again, it's been a hot minute, and honestly my teacher for the game design portion of my college career wasn't... equipped.
kindred mason
@dense needle where do you work at now?
dense needle
I would say for your position. Try coding for indie devs? Preferably a dev that has shipped a product and needs an extra hand or two.
@kindred mason I'm a investor/developer.
kindred mason
@dense needle so nowhere?
dense needle
I work remotely. Next year I'll try and move out.
dense needle
Either Montreal Quebec or NC.
dense needle
Currently? Two jobs. One is app development. I'm overseeing the project. On my end the work is 99% done. The other job will either be continued work in voxel development or UI design.
spring laurel
Okay, so probably best I go for a remote job with an indie company to best improve my chances and get my foot in the door?
dense needle
Yes, indie is a great way to build experience. But as I said. Stick with a dev that already shipped a product. 99.9% will fail in the first year. You are gambling picking a new dev at random.
@kindred mason Why interested? Looking for work?
spring laurel
Hm, sounds good. I'll give it a shot looking. Thanks, redstar!
dense needle
GL. A lot of choices, and limited time.
Oh. And go to GDC. Game Developers Conference. Networking is one of the best ways.
kindred mason
@dense needle always on the lookout for great opportunities. But no. I was just wondering, because you had said something earlier and it seemed like you saying you were working for a big game dev company I thought.
Maybe I misread it though. So you don't actually work in GameDev right now?
dense needle
It could be big money if it works out. Both avenues. Then I'll start hiring if it does.
Yes, but it's more on the technical side. Graphics development for voxels.
I got spare time till the next hardware leap. That's when the chains come off. Voxels need a ton of RAM. 192gb for DDR4. 128gb should be possible in 2020 with DDR5. That includes other graphics tech.
harsh brook
Why voxel based if I can ask? Seems like for real time you’d need an insane amount of vram
dense needle
It's not just voxels. It's a push away from polygons and into more efficient 3d graphics.
Sebastion and many other devs are able to run similar tech on a potato. It's a race to find the next big leap in software with the new hardware.
finite mulch
@dense needle What kind of voxel stuff are you doing? 😃
dense needle
High detail voxels. Rasterization, shadows, animation. The works. If it works out, awesome. If it evolves into something else, awesome. If it takes 10 more years... Not awesome.
dense needle
Converting from polygons and sub divisions. The key whenever you find work like that. Have a back up plan if it takes time. That's how I ended up as an investor.
finite mulch
from or to? 🤔
dense needle
From polys to voxels.
dense needle
Mostly it's on ram. You can bake it to the SSD and kill it. I need to get a 4tb next year.
Do not attempt at 256gb SSD!
finite mulch
Uh?
dense needle
So in the same way that people use the CPU to render. Voxels uses RAM to render.
finite mulch
dense needle
You can try with Houdini, using their built in addon OpenVDB. Maya also uses openVDB. You can hack Magica Voxel to do something past 2048. Or play it safe with hybrid voxel farm. Tons of choices past that. Tech went opensource in 2016 thanks to Nvidia.
finite mulch
Hum
dense needle
Or wait till it's done. Then pick the best of the best. New job markets are risky. You never know how they'll evolve. Crypto is a good example.
digital gate
I think he should make something himself, it'll be more fun for him and might even get him a rep or something 
harsh brook
Are you rasterizing still? It’d be nice to see ram prices go down to the point that that’d be realistic for gaming I’m trying to piece together enough money to buy 128 gbs now and it’s pretty ridiculous
remote saffron
working in QA with a computer science degree sounds weird to me tbh, why shouldn't you look for a programmer job instead? 🤔
spring laurel
I would, but I’m only partly familiar with Unreal and Unity, and I haven’t really programmed in about 2 years so I’m a bit rusty.
shadow kelp
congrats 😃
brisk anchor
Congrats 😁
steel creek
SWEET! welcome to the west coast (soon)
nova locust
thanksss
vivid pivot
Moving inside the US? or other country?
vivid pivot
haha yeah, good luck with that 😃
nova locust
yuppp
plucky hatch
"working in QA with a computer science degree sounds weird to me tbh, why shouldn't you look for a programmer job instead?"
There are QA jobs in software dev that pay a lot more than game QA
I dont recommend game QA
you might as well work overtime just to pay the bills, no time for family or portfolio
plus, you might be wtihout work for weeks or months because they dont have projects for you
no pay
So if you are in a situation where you need to build a portfolio, maybe I'd recommend to just find a job on the phone that pays well
lilac walrus
Game QA can be a decent enough entry point for a lot of people, though the value is greatly diminished if you're not in-house.
narrow vigil
I would also imagine that getting a job in QA would be easier that getting a job as a programmer
plucky hatch
QA is minimum salary.
And QA lead is like 2$ more
still shit
I really don't recommend it
Most of the guys that I know who started in QA, they did it years ago when that's how it could work
these days, QA is a bad entry point
It would be much smarter to find a side job that pays well + gives you time to boost your portfolio
Because you might still need money to pay for softwares and stuff.
Minimum salary, you are shooting yourself in the foot
I've done it for 2 years, just to experience it. I've seen so many people desperately trying to break into the industry, it was hearrt breaking. It's not the way it works
The only people Ive seen who made a real career in QA, moved to QA software dev
spring laurel
Well, I am currently working on my A+ certification, and seeing if I can get into business IT. I really just wanna get into the game field though, ASAP.
narrow vigil
I know that the money isn't good at all but it would give you a foot in the door.
shadow kelp
it's not for everyone...but still a good entry point. Particularly if you want to do game design where it's difficult to bring skills into the industry with you
a lot of designers at our place started in QA roles and moved into design
spring laurel
Well, unfortunately I need money. Student loans are a bitch. If QA isn’t gonna offer too much, then I guess I’m better off trying IT till my portfolio is there.
narrow vigil
Just as an example Amanda Bott started in QA, and she moved up to community manager
plucky hatch
If it's not a career, don't take the job. QA is minimum salary and you have no idea how long you'll do that.
So you better choose a different job
spring laurel
If I didn’t have loans, I’d probably go for it. Unfortunately, I had to go to college.
plucky hatch
@narrow vigil
I can give you a list of 10 people that started in QA. But they are exceptions, it's not a path.
Most of those who went from QA to X already had a degree in game design, art or else
They didnt just start QA and boom went designer or artist
shadow kelp
it's totally a path for any QA people at our studio, if they want to. Many QA people are very happy in the roles. It's quite specialist and a skill in it's own right...even though it sneered at by some people
plucky hatch
I know 4 game/level designers in Montreal who started in QA. But they also had education, they didnt need the QA jobs
narrow vigil
So how would you suggest getting a foot in the door?
plucky hatch
By doing your job, not QA
narrow vigil
It seems like a very logical choice
plucky hatch
getting your foot in the door doesnt mean anything
spring laurel
If I were to go to IT, I’d imagine it would have to be through networking through events like GDC
That’s the most direct route at that point
plucky hatch
Tell that to the 90% people in QA that got their foot in the door and will never go anywhere
narrow vigil
Why doesn't getting your foot in the door mean anything?
Maybe those people are doing something wrong or they like it there
plucky hatch
Because what is important is to get your foot in the door as GD, LD or Artist.
As QA? nobody cares
shadow kelp
that's very disrespectful to people that work in QA tbh
it's a skilled job
people enjoy it
plucky hatch
...
spring laurel
I don’t think that’s what Severance meant. I think he means going in through he bottom isn’t a guarantee. Whereas if you went in as something higher, you have better chances.
narrow vigil
But how do you get in higher?
kindred mason
Wonder why the assumption that QA is the bottom rung
narrow vigil
If you don't have experience
lilac walrus
Going in at the bottom still gets you valuable studio experience
And if you're aiming to be a designer, junior and entry level positions are borderline non-existent
shadow kelp
well, I can tell you for a fact that at the large studio I work at, people in QA have loads of opportunity to get training and move into other areas of specialization, if they want to. Or progress in QA field
narrow vigil
I don't know about other people but I would love to start a a senior developer but I know that isn't going to happen
plucky hatch
All I'm saying is that if your goal is to work in the video games industry as Game Designer or Level Designer or 3D Artist or Programmer, the best way to do it is by having a strong portfolio and networking.
You don't have to work in QA to do networking.
Plus, to have a job, low salary, in QA isn't going to help you. It might put you in trouble in many ways. You might be forced to do overtime to pay bills when if you had a different job that pays more... you would have greater cash flow and more time to work on your portfolio.
narrow vigil
I think that you have to start lower and work up
kindred mason
So, I really think people have this misconception now...about "working in the industry"
lilac walrus
Working in QA is more relevant than retail...
shadow kelp
programming or art maybe, but design.....nopes. QA is a good route
kindred mason
You can easily "work in the industry" by yourself
lilac walrus
Sometimes the work you can get is the work you can get
plucky hatch
I know a lot of people who will just completely ignore your QA experience even if I personally think it can be quite relevant for designers and programmers.
kindred mason
If you are talking about AAA studios vs Indies, then please separate that
plucky hatch
You can't control what people think
kindred mason
Because half of what is being said here is rubbish
plucky hatch
I know guys that got into QA, tried to get out of it, couldnt find better jobs, got stuck ... they are still doing QA 5 years later.
spring laurel
I just wanna finally put my stupid degree to some use making games. If money weren’t an issue, I wouldn’t care what kind of job it was.
plucky hatch
And are stuck doing overtime to feed their family, no time for portfolio
kindred mason
If you want to make use of your degree and want to actually do something in the industry, then I suggest just ignoring this channel
And actually do something
plucky hatch
So, my input on this is keep telling people to not go into QA and maybe game companies will finally start to pay QA more to make it an actual career path.
Right now, QA = hangs yourself
lilac walrus
Eh?
shadow kelp
it is a career path
kindred mason
There are many different ways into "the industry"
Everyone here has done it differently
What worked for some, may not for others.
Find your own path.
plucky hatch
@shadow kelp How is QA a career path?
QA testers can be paid $12 and QA lead was $16. That's not a career
That's a student job
lilac walrus
People like SDETs almost always start in QA, and that's hardly a bad career path
lilac walrus
QA is an entry level role that requires no qualifications
spring laurel
That’s cool
digital gate
Just go do stuff
kindred mason
digital gate
Victor seems to have secured a spot in the indie space, I'll be heading off to a studio
kindred mason
@spring laurel So, this may be pointless to ask. But can you link us your portfolio ?
plucky hatch
@lilac walrus
"QA is an entry level role that requires no qualifications"
Sometimes, that's what the design department looks like.
lul
digital gate
AFAIK the only difference is he's a vet and a grad
spring laurel
Well, again, I was only asking if it was worth going into QA versus any other job I can get with my degree. It seems like while it would be simple, the pay is not gonna cut it.
kindred mason
Aye, but I'm not really looking (eagerly anyway) at AAA space
digital gate
Well I figure if I tire of it, it'd help with a footing in freelance.
spring laurel
I... I don’t really have one. It’s been a rough two years since graduating and I haven’t been... I have a lot of ideas and plans, I’m just the worst when it comes to following through. I’m working on that first.
west sonnet
For AAA qa, not really worth it. QAing for indie on the other hand is much more involved
plucky hatch
I've seen a lot of game/level design students that took QA jobs. But they were also living with their parents.
kindred mason
@west sonnet That's because you probably aren't just doing "QA" work in Indie
west sonnet
Exactly
kindred mason
You may (probably will) wear multiple hats
So, Indie isn't really good for some/most people either
If you can't handle the juggle.
I dunno. I thrive for it. So it's a perfect fit for me.
shadow kelp
if you're a programmer, and you have student debts, it's not a bad idea to avoid the games industry and get experience outside and savings. Worked for me
kindred mason
I can't stand the idea of being at a cubicle (or similar) all day, just crunching out something, and only doing that all day long for months/years.
Yeah, if you have a programming degree or CS, definitely way easier to find jobs outside gamedev
and then slowly work yourself in by doing small contracts here and there
And finding what you like/don't like
I can't imagine someone new to the industry, signing on for something, and then finding out months later, how shit his workplace is/how boring/how much it's not what they thought it would be like
^happens all the time
spring laurel
I mean, it’s as good a place to start as any: IT work, save while making a portfolio, THEN game dev.
shadow kelp
I did enterprise IT for 10 years before getting into game dev...definitely good to get money in the bank. Does mean you have to work hard to compete with the guys with 10 years game experience and multiple shipped titles
spring laurel
Well, getting into game dev is just a step. I really wanna start my own studio, but I feel it’s best to learn IN industry before creating one.
Oh, since you did enterprise IT, any tips on getting into that? I’m currently looking for a new job since I lost my seasonal job.
fickle hatch
I like dipping into gamedev, but I don't wanna be in gamedev
shadow kelp
hrm well it was a while ago 😛 I started out in support at a little IT company, then progressed through to consultancy and onto roles at big firms....not really any super tips I'm afraid
spring laurel
Oh, well thanks anyway, and to everyone in here. I appreciate the views and opinions.
plucky hatch
If you got a CS degree and can work as a programmer, you can gain programming experience by working on desktop, web app, etc. it's not game dev, but it's a hell lot better than QA
shadow kelp
as long as you're not working in any of that mickey mouse JS nonsense 😛
spring laurel
Well, I do have a CS degree but it’s been years since I programmed, so I’ll need to freshen up on that.
plucky hatch
I have a degree in programming, but man... I've just finished a two months internship and it was more difficult than I thought it would be. Just to work on an app that has a big scope, to deal with all the different classes of inheritance, to remember all that, etc. It was quite challenging. I think such ability to deal with such a large app is somewhat transferable
It shows a certain ability to memorize things and also a certain level of intellect
nova locust
Ive been working professionally in games since high school
Im 19 and i just got hired by obsidian
I got pretttty lucky though
I just met the right people at the right time
fickle hatch
It's always 'bout luck
fickle hatch
My previous job was luck, my current job is luck 😄
Being good at doing things helps, but it only shifts the luck in your favor
dense needle
@spring laurel By attending GDC you'll not only network. You'll get an exact idea of what companies are looking for. They'll even help you with your resume, demo reel, cover letter, and approach.
spring laurel
That’s another thing to tack on my list: attend GDC
lilac walrus
I've never made it out there - very expensive and the timing never seems to be right
kindred mason
Yup. Many people in the industry still haven't made it to a GDC
dense needle
It's a shame. Because it's a great place to learn all kinds of things. Yes CA is stupid expensive.
What was it? $1 million a year is still middle class if you live in certain parts of CA?
lilac walrus
it's also the whole travel and accommodation thing; coming from Europe you need that extra time for travel, and a couple of days for time zone adjustment either side
adds up to a lot of time off work, that's tricky to justify sometimes
fickle hatch
I just need to take a train to get to GDC
😄
I made a very bad stupid mistake of missing last years GDC
Even though I had the chance
dense needle
Whenever you apply for work. Make sure you know what the living expenses are. So your paycheck matches the location.
GDC needs a Europe and East Coast location.
spring laurel
I wish there was East Coast, I’m in Florida so I’d be looking at a big flight. Which ticket would I need anyway? The Expo Plus?
dense needle
@lilac walrus Yep, they also tried Austin TX.
I'd recommend having $1k spare on you. If you eat Subway/Burger King breakfast lunch and dinner, the most expensive part will be the cab driver. Get one that charges upfront. Otherwise it's a decent $80 bill for a 5 min ride.
Make sure it's not in cash. I did that at the airport and apparently that's illegal. They would have caught me, but luckily they were obsessed with my shoes. My skin color is not welcomed there. ):
spring laurel
Ouch
digital gate
not only is it illegal but they can just own that money if you're caught with it.
spring laurel
Well, if I’d need $1k for GDC, then it’ll probably be 2020 before I go.
But it’s on my list
dense needle
Airport security is an oxymoron. My friend had a friend who went through with LSD. He was sweating bullets. They spent all their time focused on his hat.
fickle hatch
@dense needle huh, you had issues with cash under $10k?
Usually you're permitted to take up to $10k on international flights
dense needle
He ditched that friend. My friend is almost a major in business.
fickle hatch
But it's country specific
dense needle
I wouldn't risk wads of cash at an airport. Just go cards. Ideally 2 cards.
Another trick of the trade is have a friend/acquaintance to meet up with at GDC. Preferably one not hiding drugs.
spring laurel
I’ll keep that in mind
dense needle
Find a landmark to meet at. We used that weird triple hand statue.
Don't worry about landing a job on your first visit. It should be to network and learn what you'll need to develop. So next visit you'll be ready. On day 2 they usually get all the students. Spend your bulk time on the job floor. Whenever the students aren't on the prowl. That down period is where you hit up the booths.
Another trick of the trade is hang out near one of the major booths. Have a conversation with a dev while you listen to applicants present themselves. See which ones make it all the way. Treat it like a semi investigative reporter and secret agent on your first visit.
spring laurel
That’s a solid idea
dense needle
Don't tell other people. They'll catch on if every other person starts doing it.
BTW I learned it from EA. They wander the floor.
fickle hatch
I love the sneaky approach
digital gate
don't tell other people
is advice given in the biggest UE community
lilac walrus
I mean, there's only like 8000 people in here right?
dense needle
@digital gate Chat room's not that big!
I guarantee 10-20 people tops will see my advice.
fickle hatch
@dense needle I'm going to GDC first time and my goal is to find cool connections and particularly with people who can help with funding, any advice?
Less so to find the specific people at GDC and more to make friends who can point to other friends
dense needle
Twitter is one of the best places to hit up developers. They'll have a Going To GDC hashtag.
fickle hatch
What if I prefer face to face
dense needle
Unfortunately funding is mostly in mobile, other tech. The whole crypto craze drew in a lot of VCs. VCs tend to chase fads. I'd like to see stuff like Kickstarter go under and we go back to more traditional investing. Or... KS gets proper regulation so the flood gates aren't opened to fraud.
Angel co if you want to see what the rich are doing with their money in tech. Games rarely ever shows up on the list.
fickle hatch
Heh
I've been talking to someone who does real estate, but sadly that person funded an expensive movie which was a massive flop and is sick of even hearing anything about "entertainment"
That is my experience with non-gamedev-specific funding so far haha
dense needle
If KS worked like regular investing. Where you see a return. That would solve a lot of problems... And create new ones.
fickle hatch
We're considering KS for our game, but we're not sure it will help us much
Our potential audience isn't that big, I fear our ceiling is below what we might need
dense needle
Like I said. Popularity. The power in charisma, a name brand is a huge benefit for job hunting. If Cliff Blesinski wanted to work for Nintendo, Sony. They would take him seriously.
lilac walrus
GDC isn't great for funding etc, since it's dev orientated
you'll want a business orientated conference like Game Connection for that
fickle hatch
It's fine, I mostly wanna make some cool friends
I'm really suffering from lack of networking/good connections
We have no problem talking to investors and such, but our pool is limited only to uh, lets say people who nobody vouches for
I'm talking to this publisher right now, they have not actually read anything about our game we gave them it seems
😐
They are making a reasonable offer, but they aren't interested in what we're making
dense needle
@lilac walrus I've seen developers get funding out of GDC. They also have private booths for such talks.
fickle hatch
It's both easier and harder for our project
dense needle
@fickle hatch And that's exactly why I got funding from becoming an investor.
fickle hatch
Our project is unique enough to get some initial interest and get into a conversation, but it's a niche project so it requires people with specific interests
So my goal is to find people whose interest chain can get us somewhere
Not so much find the investors directly
@dense needle also explain, what do you mean?
dense needle
It's tricky. I had one investor say, "I never check emails." I had another say, "I only consider people with a business plan submitted by email." This also applies to job hunting in the game industry. That's why I recommend attending conventions. Meeting them in person is the best approach.
fickle hatch
Ah, yes
I'm literally sitting here and I don't know if my email reached this funding group I emailed two days ago
Our initial email reached them - they said they were interested
lilac walrus
if you meet investors that are that awkward, consider it a dodged bullet anyway
dense needle
They will be more likely to offer work, throw money at you if you meet them in person.
fickle hatch
But I think my second email got culled cause it had more than 2 URL's in it
@lilac walrus yeah, but it's not black and white. If it was only about me, I would not even consider that offer
But I have a team who all wanna eat and pay rent 😦
lilac walrus
true enough, but a bad deal can really bite you in the arse later
dense needle
My previous investor wanted me to meet in person at Niagara Falls. The meet was cancelled, he had to go to NYC. But I still got the funding for the app development. Booyah!
fickle hatch
So far I got funding twice, but only once for real
First investor was scum and offered us a tiny bit of money and tried to suggest overtaking our codebase
"We'll rewrite your code to be faster", what a sweet way to absorb copyrights
dense needle
I've had 3 investors. So far 3 for 3 they disappeared on me.
fickle hatch
Second investor is a great guy, but we agreed on a limited sum and we aren't gonna ask for more
Second guy has a personal interest in our project, so everything is great
lilac walrus
I've only gone through it once, but our experience was bad
dense needle
Crypto market money probably came from questionable sources. I paid my taxes so it's all legal on my front.
fickle hatch
We show that we're progressing, he's happy that we're generating engineering data that he loves
lilac walrus
we took an initial funding round with a promise of more delivered at regular intervals so long as we met our milestones
fickle hatch
I want an investor like that, a second one for more monies
dense needle
Don't ask where the money comes from. Just make sure you stay legal on your end. Pay those taxes.
lilac walrus
when the second round came up, they demanded to know why we weren't making money yet
fickle hatch
I want someone who asks real specific questions, is very interested in where his money is going
That's my ideal investor - someone who asks tough questions and someone who checks in with us at least every week
lilac walrus
we were pretty miffed, because our business plan was pretty clear that we weren't going to be profitable for three years at least
it was all very strange
ashen lynx
@fickle hatch I'd suggest you looking more at the sim way of selling the thing and visiting appropriate events. You won't get much attention on GDC, or in fact any game-related event.
fickle hatch
@ashen lynx well, I'm going to GDC to meet my friends too so it's gonna work out in any case 😄
But yeah
We're contacting a lot of people for it, not just pure gamedev stuff
dense needle
Just find a way to meet the VCs in person. A simple dinner with them goes a long way.
dense needle
And in the case of job hunting in the game industry it's usually the bar.
fickle hatch
I know I won't have any issues because I love talking to people about my projects, so at worst it'll be a learning experience and a new contact into the address book, who might not be interested in the specific project we're doing, but whatever
I wish I got to do some talk at GDC. Or anywhere
I like public speaking
dense needle
Try Launch dot Co. It's a huge investor event held every year.
fickle hatch
Thanks for the pointer! A specific pointer from a specific person is always very welcome to me
That's kind of the frustrating thing
If we ever get lucky, it's always from recommendations by specific people and not something we just googled or something
dense needle
I hope it works out. Remember the world is always changing. Certain things can be timeless. While others are different every few years.
fickle hatch
Our project has a lot of industrial value that isn't reflected if we're signing only over the game part of it. That's also something to consider
fading yoke
"I only consider people with a business plan submitted by email." - What exactly does a business plan look like, anyway?
dense needle
If you do get a hold of investors who got burned on crypto. Point them my way @vercusgames on twitter. I help people out with investing in tech.
fickle hatch
@fading yoke I wrote it for our project, if you want I can give you a general table of contents (our business plan was for a bank)
I can't speak for what people want in general, but there was a specific list of things bank wanted
dense needle
@fading yoke Exactly lol! Path to launch, roadmap, revenue, where the money goes.
fickle hatch
It's a little stupid, but one sec
fading yoke
I'd love to get funding for my project so I can hire people to help me. Right now it's just $18/month on Patreon. Fundraising seems like some obscure, arcane art so I have no idea what to even do exactly.
dense needle
Investors like a return on what they put in. That's why I'm not a fan of crowd funding. Also crowd funding is answering to a million investors instead of 1.
fickle hatch
So what the bank wanted in a business plan was:
- The usual business plan executive summary (all the blah blah stuff on what it is, one-two pages tops)
- Description of our customers (expected target group, % ratio between target groups, reasoning for this estimate, description of past experience with this estimate, time horizon/when will we get revenue timing information)
- Detailed description of our expenses and their use in time
- Time schedule and development plan assuming the investment is approved
- Forecast financial reports for next 2-3 years (optimistic, pessimistic and emergency scenarios). There is a lot of extra boring junk cause we were getting a generic loan that I won't describe (they wanted to know our plans for stuff like material, immaterial assets blah blah, I don't think anyone but bank would care about that level of detail)
- Information about use of money up until now (general info & accounting information)
- Description of key employees
- Description of cooperation with existing investors (what agreements and such)
- Short description of the competition
It's for a bank, not a private investor (we never discussed things this much in-depth with our private investor haha)
This is a late-stage business plan, not the early-stage business proposal we submitted (where we omitted such detail and only focused on general description of what and why)
fickle hatch
The structure of the business proposal (early stage business plan) we did was:
- Executive summary
- Team background
- Value proposition (what we offer)
- Product description (in-depth), including technology readiness level (lol, industrial proposals)
- Market analysis (competitors, context, demand, growth opportunity)
- Business model (communication, distribution, sales channels, customer relationship, revenue streams, key resources, key activities, key partners)
- Risk analysis (SWOT and risks mitigation)
- Cost structure & early financial projections (just general "we expect to earn this much in year 1, this much in year 2")
- Annexes with extra information, screenshots, blueprint drawings and other stuff relevant for the proposal
Incubation proposal was even simpler:
- Activity proposal (what do we wanna do and generally how)
- Basic info on management/plans
- Funding request, just saying how much we need and what we would spend it on in words, not even a spreadsheet
But this is skewed to general business proposals, not specifically gamedev. We are an engineering company first and foremost and we did these plans not only for our game, but for also non-gamedev projects
So just consider this as a general pointer on what to expect I guess?
dense needle
What type of game are you creating?
Ideally you want to bypass the front door for job apps and business talks... Ahem. I know plenty of people frown on that. But it's a quicker more effective way to find things out.
fickle hatch
Engineering train simulator. Key features: full (100% precise) simulation of trains & infrastructure, multiplayer & atmosphere (graphics). Relatively small budget compared to even indie games.
dense needle
As long as the app, talk is serious and has a lot of credibility behind it.
Isn't already a train sim game?
fickle hatch
Hm?
No real industrial-grade train sims on the market for an average joe who wants something with more depth than a toy trainset
dense needle
For games?
fickle hatch
We mostly target people who like engineering/trains but think that normal train sims are trashy and mostly for kids, so to say
Think DCS: World vs X-Plane
We're DCS: World, other train sims are X-Plane
Vehicle & detail focus instead of a general train focus
The fact that it's about subway trains is kind of a very arbitrary random decision that just sorta organically happened. This simulation framework I developed for aerospace vehicles haha
west sonnet
How many times have you pitched this or at least the number of business plan revisions blackfox? I’m convinced you can present this in your sleep by now 😜
fickle hatch
If you consider elevator-style pitches to people online that I do to practice, it must be up in the hundreds
The primary business plan has 4 revisions (major ones, not tiny edits), short project description has like 7 revisions, general project overview has like 5 revisions, financial drafts have like a billion revisions
dense needle
You'll need to convince them the money invested will see a double to 10x return.
For example mine is $35k for $1-$2 million. (That's because we lost the 3 prior investors and kept their money.)
west sonnet
Good god
dense needle
It's getting stupid easy to generate revenue. If I get it down to $10 I'll laugh.
fickle hatch
We kinda are flexible so there's a lot of movement space for different returns, funding levels and such, but because of niche nature, it hovers around 2x-3x
dense needle
But... indie can generate those kinds of numbers.
fickle hatch
And a net zero if it completely fails (we know there's a certain number of people who would definitely buy our game, so we have some minimum baselines that leave investor and us together at least in a net zero and a slight plus)
Assuming we sell as poorly as those slightly dubious in quality german subway train sims
Our default is to assume a shitty tax rate, split into two stages (beta version/early access and full release) and aim for a 3x ROI for the investor
dense needle
I hate taxes.
fickle hatch
This publisher we're talking to is kinda into it, but they are giving a much more publisher-leaning offer (sure, whatever), but the problem we're having is that their budget is limited and that limit is below our minimum....
And they also don't read much of the stuff we give them to read, but we convinced them to max out the offer within the scope of their budget, but they are very strongly saying that that's all their budget for making games
fickle hatch
9 to 12 months to beta version (we don't use term EA, since it's going to be fully functional, but implication is EA), then around 6-8 months more to get to full release
It's mostly about the bulk remaining art
Nothing complex or special. We streamlined it a ton so we would only need to do the bare basics right now (enough that it looks impressive today, so we can add more cool stuff tomorrow on our own time maybe). It just takes time & money to go through all the work.
dense needle
That sounds good. So you are more in my boat. Looking to finish it off.
fickle hatch
Yep!
dense needle
I only have 4 weeks left on my project. I don't need the rest of the money yet. The developer is still working on their current assignments.
fickle hatch
Currently the game looks like this: we have two highly detailed models of the trains (internal), we have highly detailed 3D assets for these trains (not fully assembled together in UE4, but they are finished to a large extent), we have all types of all assets already completed (some stations, etc), a lot more auxiliary assets
dense needle
It is tempting to take a part time job, finish off the funding that way. I may go that route. 50% cut per unit sold is nice.
fickle hatch
What we need money for is to put it all together, polish it, finish the remaining stations, do the remaining level design, add passengers and nice characters, develop sweet short simple tutorials and some interesting missions (only a handful for beta)
dense needle
Did you try Unreal's dev grant?
fickle hatch
Like, if we were talking on an investment business level, I can just give you straight up lists of assets that need to be finished. It's a simulator based on real world and we had enough time to figure out most of the work scope
west sonnet
You have a vertical slice correct?
fickle hatch
@dense needle yes, a while ago, we never got any reply or even a download of the beta build (which was actually more polished industrial version build)
dense needle
(Sony could also use a train simulator. Mostly it's confined to Steam.)
fickle hatch
@west sonnet we have a prototype that fully implements all core pillars of our game (detailed simulation, multiplayer, atmosphere), just has very shitty graphics and lags a lot
But it is fully functional and people play it every day
But
Also a vertical slice for the main standalone
dense needle
Unfortunately Unreal gets a insane amount of submissions. They took my idea. So I didn't need the grant. I wanted lighting quality in games to improve to be more comfortable on the eye. I was worried 8th gen would make people ill.
west sonnet
Would you like a free artist? 😜
fickle hatch
@west sonnet we only work with paid artists usually 😛
dense needle
I'm just glad 8th gen is better on the eyes than 7th gen.
fickle hatch
FYI, we already trained at least 6 people (that I'm aware of) to be actual train drivers
Maybe more, but only those people called back to us and gave their feedback
They are working in Moscow right now. They went through drivers school like knife through butter
We have spent a lot of time developing strategies for pre-training drivers for real, not the garbage "here's a simulator, you can drive around in it", but on the "here is a real train. Lets have fun breaking the shit out of it and you won't notice how we are gaining intricate intuitive understanding of it" level
dense needle
Focus on the ratio of money needed and money gained. How it'll make that amount. Worst case and best case scenarios.
west sonnet
That, I don’t understand from an investor’s statepoint. Evidence of real world application should at least get an eye brow raised
fickle hatch
@dense needle hiring artists from Russia, not paying salary to me... combine that together and you're looking for under $350k for the whole thing start to end (for insane detail level, 4k/8k textures, millions of polygons everywhere). We are asking for less to finish the bulk that would let us get some revenue
No magic, just streamlined workflows and cheap labor
dense needle
I definitely recommend meeting investors in person. Finding places where they frequent. Pulling them off places like crypto. Which is just money burned.
fickle hatch
Yeah
Btw
We are not doing much industrial training sim stuff right now because the guys who can buy the specific sim that we have (for the Russian-style subways) can only pay a ridiculously tiny amount which is barely enough to do the work 😄
Sadly it's more profitable to make it as a videogame - at this stage, until we get this game/sim out
fickle hatch
Wow.
My friend just got a very amazing test task for a job.
To consider his job application, they want him to do a test task of "prepare a small <gamename> clone. It has to be done with Unreal Engine 4" and goes on to specify a list of 7 mandatory features/concepts
Like being able to throw grenades that must bounce from the surface N times, show trajectory visualization before they are thrown
Wtf
An unpaid three-week-long task 😐
spring laurel
So, basically they're having him make a game in three weeks, with no guarantee of a job?
narrow vigil
What job did he apply for?
digital gate
My favorite test I've gotten so far was Do this specific game mechanic, but with your own spin
dense needle
I got tested by EA. I aced the test, and found out they gave me the wrong job test.
I decided not to take the offer. This was before the EA spouse thing exploded.
ashen lynx
There is definitely a problem if such skill checks are run on recruitment. There are much more profitable jobs with significantly more skill required and higher level of responsibility and are decided upon during a brief telephone call. 3 week task is a joke.
west sonnet
My favourite: "Make a fantasy character"
digital gate
Clone this game or basically do the project "tests" are dumb tho
dense needle
Tell Tale was the worst. The job test was great. But I found out they only hired one animator for a job that needed three people. I'm glad I never got it. I heard the guy they hired was worked to death.
It started with Back to the Future game. They did ramp up staff. But never adopted animation tech that would have reduced the work load.
fickle hatch
I'm strongly against unpaid, non-specific large job tests
When I hire artists, I comission them for something from the project first, fully paid
So we get a real asset back and see how they can handle things
plucky hatch
@dense needle
I did QA on several telltale games including game of thrones and borderlands. Was some of the worst projects to work on.
Since those games are like interactive movies, their development process was like... we'll make the game playable from A to Z, but all the animations, we'll butch them all. So each scene had like 10-20 obvious bugs. And testers had to replay those scenes countless times just to flag all the freaking bugs in each animation sequence
Like those bugs were so obvious, I can't believe the animator didnt see them
They were just burning QA testers for nothing.
The worst part is the were ust trying tryin to reduce the number of animation-related bugs until it wasnt so bad
spring laurel
Yeah, Telltale weren't the best when it came to 'seamless'.
plucky hatch
There are different types of game companies. Some use QA testing to polish their games and others use QA almost from start to finish.
They basically use QA to create a todo list.
fickle hatch
When we were making prototype of our game, having live players right there, on the multiplayer server while I was live-editing server code, was very valuable
It's amazing to get realtime feedback 😄
plucky hatch
Totally!
But when you work on a game that is basically an interactive film and all your animations have 3 bugs for 5 seconds of animation, maybe your 3D animators are shit
fickle hatch
Yeah 😄
plucky hatch
if Im working on a map, when testers will play through it there won't be 5 bug per 1 meter distance
Well, that's what Telltales was doing
Huge waste of time and money
fickle hatch
Yeah
dense needle
That's why I went into business for myself. Yes my staff takes time to finish assignments. But the no crunch time makes them happy. I have a setup where assignment completed, pay check. Rinse repeat. We never went over budget.
fading yoke
@dense needle Wow I'm envious. It must feel great to be able to turn down a job offer.
What was EA's test like?
dense needle
I took another game company. It was technical artist. I applied for 3d artist. It was a lot of coding questions.
It was Blackwater Software. A FPS, MMO. They paid me to attend my first GDC, got some equipment. Overall a good job.
lilac walrus
@fickle hatch - may I ask who asked for that test?
I would absolutely turn that down
a company that doesn't respect your time as an applicant sure won't as an employer, and that test is definitely past the extreme end of the curve
honest cipher
coding tests ive done a couple months back:
"make a hovercraft prototype in ue4, must have a hovercraft vehicle, some guns, and something to shoot at"
"take this unity WASD project and convert it into a ultra-simple platformer with an end goal that sends you to next level, something that kills you, and jumping logic"
"3 fairly complicated coding questions, half an hour for each"
"webpage with 20 complicated coding questions, you have 2 hours to do as good as you can"
and
"add a halo-style sticky grenade to ShooterGame, must work multiplayer"
other stuff was more coding tests but with interview at the same time, or just a web quiz
from some questions i asked the interviewers, you would be surprised how many people fail the basic unity test and the 2 ue4 tests
the sticky grenade had a 95% + failure rate
and the unity shitty plataformer example also had a huge failure rate becouse the absolute mayority of candidates resorted to hacks or sloppy stuff
in general, all the tests were stuff you could easily do in one day
honest cipher
yes
digital gate
which company was this?
honest cipher
PUBG
digital gate
applies
honest cipher
i think they changed the test to other thing
but in general, they were looking for someone to be able to add a decent feature to C++ shootergame
so need knowledge on UE4 networking, and C++
thats BEYOND hard to find
digital gate
???
honest cipher
they are still looking for candidates (want to fill like 5-6 more programmer spots) and they cant find people
digital gate
DM?
honest cipher
no, but you can look in their website and stuff
digital gate
Literally had 2 q, but I'll look into it on my own
honest cipher
the hardest test i did was that 20 question one
holy shit was that one overkill
pretty sure only Carmack can actually finish it
if i remember correctly, that one was for an engine dev position at the studio that did Forza Horizon
who is working on the next Fable
digital gate
well I seemingly can only find out what I want by actually applying (woah, shocker), so. I'll apply cause its not like I have anything else going on, but if I did I'd just skip it.
'Ere I go, getting pre-filtered again!
meh, can't even submit the application. No wonder why you aren't finding anybody, one of your bonuses is a requirement!
kindred mason
@honest cipher c++ test?
I've gotten regular c++ tests that have nothing to do with Unreal (which is fine, but they want c++ gameplay programmer)
digital gate
I've spent enough time on this. The only recruiter I see looks to be for the Korea location. I'm just going to put an obvious lie on the field.
I'll mention it at the top of the CL
kindred mason
Usually, some are basic stuff like OOP principle questions, templates and virtual functions, etc. Some file handling stuff.
honest cipher
@kindred mason yeah, thats the stuff i got from the programming questions (outside of engines)
kindred mason
It's so boring
And some are timed too. These are usually multiple choice
I just don't get why they don't tailor the questions to be more unreal related
honest cipher
and then you get that one, 20 questions, 2 hours, questions included stuff like "make a linked list in C++" or "write a number parser"
kindred mason
Some of these tests are for Senior Level positions
honest cipher
plus open-ended architecture questions like "explain how the rastezation works"
kindred mason
Like... Why are you giving out some random entry level generic tests for this
kindred mason
Do they?
honest cipher
yes
kindred mason
So because I can ace a generic cpp test, that makes me an expert in Unreal cpp?
kindred mason
I don't know. Don't think I can agree with that
honest cipher
they just want to know that the C++ skills are solid
my favourite are the tests where you need to build someting. They tend to be much more accurate to the position
kindred mason
Maybe. But usually get put off after the tenth or so test that's a rehash of someone's else's test
honest cipher
thats when it gets real annoying
or when the c++ tests are algorythm puzzles that have nothing to do with what you are going to make
digital gate
bonus points: Data set is not provided and would be a pain to construct, and the print output is truncated (no remote debugging)
honest cipher
you are a casual lol
the trick is to just open visual studio and code the entire thing there
and then copypasta
digital gate
I normally do.
Nah I should have written a thing to generate valid input to the program I am writing for the test.
And the expected outcome from that data.
And then only give them the successful program with none of the test framework
shadow kelp
coding tests aren't made to determine if you can code a specific thing, they're to see how to go about solving problems, structuring your code etc.
honest cipher
@shadow kelp that was the idea for the pubg test
they wanted to see if the guy actually takes into account all the bullshit that comes with online game syncing
fickle hatch
@lilac walrus I didn't pressure for information on which company it is, but it must be a company from Eastern Europe
lilac walrus
I'm willing to bet it might be CD Projekt
lilac walrus
fair enough
fickle hatch
CD Projekt isn't that stupid from all I know
lilac walrus
they sent me a test that was gratuitous a while back when I applied, so I rejected it outright
Apply for game designer
"make us an entire game, you have a week"
No thanks.
fickle hatch
It's still a thing that happens in eastern europe when companies give you bizzarely inappropriate tests - I see lots of reports of that (and that one 3 week game comes from my friend)
lilac walrus
yeah, it's ridiculous
when I was interviewing for tech designers at Bohemia, my test was to do a networked version of SpaceWar
an experienced person can do that in an afternoon, and it shows me all I need to know
fickle hatch
Hopefully the employer understands and never forgets the motivation difference
When you're doing a stupid test task, there's no way you'll get proper motivation compared to doing some real task for the project
lilac walrus
aye
fickle hatch
Hire your modders if they are good on level of employees, they will make great employees of your company 😄
lilac walrus
Bohemia have hired modders from as far away as the US, haha
but the general level of talent in Czech is pretty low tbh
usually in the most important places too, like core programming
fickle hatch
Hahaha, reminds me of the time we were trying to work with or hire some random college dude who was working on his own czech subway simulator
But his wasn't anything new or substantial, it was just moving along the spline in a Czech setting. Still, we contacted him
But he had weird college kid views and didn't really even talk to us
I guess he figured he could get further than us on his own
lilac walrus
sounds about right - seems to be a fairly national attitude
ignore what the rest of the world is doing, and has done, and just do your own thing
(usually with poor results)
fickle hatch
I have not actually worked with Czechs. My company is in Czechia, but literally everyone who has ever done anything for it wasn't Czech 😄
lilac walrus
haha
really hard working people, but stubborn and single-minded
you get some really great people to work with, and a larger number of not so great ones
fickle hatch
Oh yes. I work a lot with people from ex-USSR areas too, there are some really peculiar cultural aspects to people from there
If you behave right, you can get a very dedicated ally who will work for you even for free
lilac walrus
I recall it was an uphill battle just to get people to adopt animation blending - it's UE4 and it's 2017 guys
kind crater
🤔
fickle hatch
But without a careful approach (and with a lot of people it's just impossible), you will only get pain, confusion and nothing gets done
lilac walrus
they still wanted to do absolutely everything full-body slot style
fickle hatch
My god. At my previous workplace the electric circuit design guy was SO BAD
And NOBODY wanted to recognize it
lilac walrus
DayZ etc all still works that way
fickle hatch
I sure as hell tried to warn management, just like my superior did, just like everyone else at the company did
But the big boss figured his intuition was more right than everyone else at the company
😐
lilac walrus
¯_(ツ)_/¯
fickle hatch
Like seriously. So you have a UAV, what's one of the most important parts about a UAV? Surprisingly, it's the ability for connecting wires to not unplug mid-flight so the whole thing comes crashing down
Sockets and plugs was something the electric guy didn't manage to solve until the very end
We had to rely on USB and a different connector. USB is not vibration-resistant and those other connectors were only marginally vibration resistant and were an absolute bitch to unplug
They would often get stuck together, after pulling it out it shaved off a tiny nub of plastic and lost its anti-vibration locking
lilac walrus
hah
fickle hatch
Over like 8 months the guy didn't manage to order & deliver a single goddamn connector pair
I've had so much stress because of it
One time in cold weather I was having a real hard time plugging the wires in, but finally did it
And then during takeoff, the UAV lost engine power three times because one of the wires that provides power to the engine got slightly loose
It lost power, dipped nose down, the sudden mechanical jerk would close the electrical connection again and it would recover and keep ascending
lilac walrus
0_o
honest cipher
my boss at pubg worked at bohemia
hybrid phoenix
I think that's a general thing for ex-USSR
Having worked with a few of them, most of them weren't that great
One of them is, and has gotten way better at working in a team
But still has a tendency to do things his own way, assume he's right and ignore the rest
ashen lynx
I do believe that beyond certain level of dedication and professionalism, nationality does not matter anymore. But in general, that is true that average entry-level competence of ex-USSR employees is lower.
fickle hatch
ex-USSR is biased towards high competence
hybrid phoenix
Not just competence, their working attitude
remote saffron
I did not feel any drastic difference regarding this with programmers in west germany vs hungary 🤷
hybrid phoenix
Especially their attitude, really
fickle hatch
The more competent people will be better than average competent people, but less competent people will be even less competent than you'd expect
And yeah, you could also say attitude
People who know their stuff have better attitudes, people who don't have scummier attitudes - that's my experience
It's been so great for us to work with all the skilled engineers from different companies who know their stuff
hybrid phoenix
I've had a bunch of people I've worked with who're really damn good at what they do, but just sucked at being on a team. Most of those were ex-USSR
fickle hatch
They helped us get tons of valuable info bypassing months of bureucratic garbage
hybrid phoenix
Of course, this is all anecdotal
fickle hatch
But the team thing, yeah, can agree on that to some extent too
ashen lynx
True about attitude.
hot rampart
Hi, I'm a student working on the independent study.
May you share me some article or advice about entering the game industry?
I realize that I keep working and learning on the game, but I have zero knowledge with the game industry.
Even is a little bit. I still want to sharp my shelf before I graduate!
shadow kelp
make stuff
fathom oracle
Unreal development course seems to be the most represented course I heard about:
https://www.udemy.com/unrealcourse/learn/v4/overview
Just start doing stuff and try not to focus on the big picture for starters.
It's a lot of work, and a lot to learn.
hot rampart
Wow I have that course...
fathom oracle
It's all about practice, and if you have some time, read books / documentation / watch tutorials.
Rule:
- If you don't understand it, it's worth learning.
- If it's boring, skip it to what you don't understand until you do.
hot rampart
Thanks for both of you!
Sorry for the late reply, I was finding a video that I saw a couple days ago.
https://youtu.be/JmwbYl6f11c
In this presentation, the speaker said the same thing as you:
"Focus on what you are doing"
fathom oracle
Great stuff!
ocean harbor
@hybrid phoenix It's not rare for people from 3rd world countries to migrate and get position/team which is much lower than their skill level. That doesn't really help with a teamwork when you are a "junior" programmer in a team of "senior" who are way less qualified or experienced. But I don't think it has anything to do with the country of origin but just the way how whole process works.
By process I mean situations where people just take a chance to get a better life but don't really understand position/environment they are being hired into.
ocean harbor
There are really different requirements and expectations to skills/experience between different countries. So far I've seen so many "architects" without background skills that are actually needed for an architect that its just sad.
hybrid phoenix
@ocean harbor I can definitely see that contributing, but I'm pretty sure that generally wasn't it in the cases I recall
remote saffron
it is
slate wren
I have a game that is 3 hours single player long
have a lot of cutscenes and enviroment collections for keep the story
Gog.com is the first site I'll put my game, at least I'll try
karmic kayak
yeah. try is the correct word.
remote saffron
you need a reputation or high production value, otherwise they won't accept you
it's still good for a try tho 🤷
karmic kayak
I'd go with an solid (!) release on Steam first tho. Since it's pretty much the easiest platform to onboard these days.
(not counting pretty much irrelevant platforms like Itch etc)
slate wren
So steam is the best option for someone who've been working on a game for 2 years?
I tought Itch was a good site for indie games... Wel, if gog don't accept it I'll put it on steam then... I really believe in my game, I think it is a solid release, I just need help doing it, that's why I'm asking... Thnks!
karmic kayak
yes it is. Besides being the easiest platform to onboard, its also the -by far- biggest platform to distribute games to a broad audience. This is esp. important considering you already invested 2 years of development. You want to take the best option you get to recoup whatever you've already invested first. Thats why Steam is defacto the best option.
with gog there are guys around who invested 4 (i think) years into their game... yet they got rejected by gog for whatever reason.
and again gog's marketshare is pretty small. At least when compared to Steam's.
slate wren
@karmic kayak Thank you so much for ur advice. And for the marketing? I created a page on facebook and I'm going to monetize to spread out the word of the game... I'm also in a lot of gaming and animation forums showing off my game. Do you know any more effective way to don't let the game dies on first week...?
karmic kayak
Sorry not a marketing guy hehe. But i think there are a few resources in the wild indies should look at. probably GDC Talks and blog etc.
slate wren
Did you ever sold ur games?
My family would be proud if I could make some money ;P
And make money out of something you create a like it, is the better way to live
remote saffron
you shouldn't expect too much for first release
also paid fb ads are said to be totally useless
karmic kayak
Games i worked on sold yeah. I'm currently not an indie dev or something hehe
remote saffron
and also, marketing is a huge part of making a living out of making games
so if you just start to ask those questions you have a lot to catch up
look for marketing related gdc talks and gamasutra articles for a start
karmic kayak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QnovWYvwo this one is pretty good.
the same guy also gave a talk about publishing on steam
plucky hatch
Pay Streamers to play your game
remote saffron
if you have money to waste
slate wren
hey @karmic kayak I just watched the video, it helped a lot!
slate wren
The marketing topics will be my hobby now
remote saffron
good luck, I hope you will like it 😄
tardy wyvern
I worked solo on a game that not only is shit, now the editor crashes when I open levels and I think I've wasted 3 years of my life. I'm having a slow motion meltdown. What to do ?
remote saffron
take a break away from your project
once you are rested and can think properly again you should take a look at your situation with fresh eyes and decide what to do... e.g. after the holidays
tardy wyvern
I thought the endeavour was insane when I started, but I now I really know it is so, if that makes sense
digital gate
might be worth it to have someone else take a look over the project
safe siren
whats this channel about
steel creek
plucky hatch
In other words, this channel is about Career Advice 👍
"How to get a job in the industry, how can I improve?"
plucky hatch
hi guys! what would be the skills needed for a level designer? What should I focus on learning?
lilac walrus
Honestly, just make levels
make levels as best as you are able and keep making them
secondary skills like working with textures and materials, or 3d environment art can also be helpful, but the core is working with editors and producing levels
try to do both singleplayer and multiplayer game levels
maybe even different game genres
karmic kayak
get decent at layouting (both on paper and in-editor), whiteboxing and scripting. as you probably will have to deal with a process were you're responsible from start to finish with constant feedback between other department and then iterating on said feedback.
plucky hatch
@plucky hatch
At this point in time, if you are looking for work as a level designer, game companies will expect you to have a good understanding of how to use game engines such as Unity and UE4 to make levels and prototyping.
That means they expect you to know how to create 3D map layouts either with a 3D app such as 3ds max, maya, modo or blender. And within the engine (geommetry tools in UE4).
They expect you to have a solid understanding of scripting. including nodal-scripting (Blueprint, Kismet, etc.) and some more traditional programming such as C#.
They expect to see in your portfolio Documents that explain your design process behind the creation of your game levels. A general plan of the map, player paths, item placement, covers, lines of sight, collectibles, etc. Whatever matters to design must be in there. Recruiters will look for those, because it's the only way they have to get into your head.
Game companies also expect you to do level design and JUST level design. If you do 3D modeling, making your own games, etc. It can often be at your disadvantage, because they'll think you maybe are spreading yourself too thin (jack of all treades master of none).
Don't make them doubt your proficiency. Just show them that you fit their needs and are the magnificient level designer that they are looking for.
@plucky hatch
Level Design Documents are often referred to as LDD
https://www.scribd.com/document/366683691/Level-Design-Document-Example-LDD-Paulo-Andrade
It's not an excellent example, but it will give you an idea.
plucky hatch
Question
Will working on your own indie games be an advantage or a disadvantage when looking for jobs in the video games industry?
If you are currently working on your own indie game, but are looking for work too, can it discourage an employer from hiring you?
karmic kayak
Probably depends. But one disadvantage i see is that if someone's working on a whole game that person might not be focused on one particular area of work. Which is more or less mandatory to get a job at a Studio these days.
shadow kelp
actually making games is always going to be useful...but as DizcoDev says...if you want to target AAA you'll need to specialize.
west sonnet
For juniors, I find -hypocritically- experience to be the more valued element. A studio isn’t going to hiring you for skill at that position but rather, your ability to work in a multidisciplinary team. Long term, absolutely specialize. Anything above entry level demands it.
plucky hatch
The reason why I'm asking this is a bit funny. I'm a game/level designer with over 4 years of experience. And during my career I noticed that the best level designers that I had the chance to meet and/or work with had two things I didn't have. They were also excellent at 3D modeling and programming. So in 2012, I left studios and went back to school to slightly step up my game in those two areas to become fully comfortable in 3D modeling and programming. But the funny thing is after graduating in 3d modeling, I had an interview at a AAA company that I will not name. And strangely enough, those who interviewed me saw my background in 3D as a downside, because in their mind I was becoming more of a generalist when it's actually the opposite... I was becoming even more specialized as a Level Designer. They were looking for a level designer who was doing exclusively level design, would come back home and make more levels.
So, I feel like our industry is so focused on finding ''specialists'', our recruiters, leads and producers don't really seem to understand that sometimes the true specialization requires a multispecialization.
shadow kelp
well, you don't need to do a degree in 3d modelling to show you can whitebox levels
plucky hatch
If the level designer isn't fully comfortable in 3D, it will slightly limit its creativity and ability to create 3D layouts, especially more organic stuff.
It also limits the work quality that you can do, before artists take over your files.
There is plenty of stuff that I have modeled that 3D artists have used ''as is'', big time saver for them.
I've seen level designers who couldn't model anything but cubic maps, because of their inability to model stuff in 3D.
on the modern combat series, one of our level designer had a 3D artist background and there was a huge difference between the quality of his map versus everyone else.
And I've noticed this over the years with other LDs who had a background as 3D artist.
steel hound
Hi Everyone,
Would someone mind sharing their experience (or perhaps point me to an article that discusses it) breaking into the Game Dev field from a relatively unrelated sector (for me, I am in business management)? I work in a leadership position for a company, however the challenge I am facing is that all the "standard" entry-level positions to get into the field (the common one I read is QA), pay far too low for me to support my family. (Live in California, cost of living where I am is rough).
Did you just chase down education?
Use something like UE4 to build a portfolio?
Find a mentor that is in the field? (If so, how?)
I recognize that I can continue to learn and develop my abilities that are relevant to someone in Game Dev while not working, however it is tough balancing all of that with my current career and family life. Thought I would ask here if anyone has some good things to consider.
Thanks in advance for any insight!
merry tartan
@steel hound it all depends on what type of job you want to do in the games industry, if you wanted a biz dev job and have that background you might be able to make a sideways move going into QA was a great place to start when the industry was smalller it is how I started but that was 30 years ago.
ashen lynx
@steel hound When you already have an established career and especially if it pays off, breaking into the industry by starting your own craft at some point can be considered as a good option.
steel hound
@merry tartan Having dabbled with UE4 and several other similar environments, Programming and Design positions are what I would initially look at. The QA piece would be mostly to get me as close to the action as possible and see it from a structured point of view rather than via articles online. Would Senior QA positions be attainable for someone that has minor experience in Game Dev, but 10-11 years of Management-level experience be a realistic thing to go after?
merry tartan
@plucky hatch send me a link to your work maybe I can help you for your next interview, people have a lot of different opinions how best to get the best result but I found no one system is perfect it just depends on the talent you have on your team, so that particular makes no sense to me that told you knowing more is a bad thing.
steel hound
@ashen lynx Thanks, I have started an LLC focused on game dev however it's just me at the moment to continually pad my portfolio once I get some decent things finished.
My frustration is I get a lot of joy (even if the joy comes after hours of pain! hah!) out of problem solving (programming or otherwise) and design, however when I am stuck working 60+ hours a week at a job that I'm not really challenged in, it makes me examine my process a little closer
merry tartan
@steel hound Maybe start by doing some contract work as an engineer and see if you like working on other peoples troubles related to games.
steel hound
@merry tartan Would that be a LinkedIn-type of pursuit? Or moreso gamedev forums that feature classifieds? (or maybe both). I'll glance over some of the job requirements and It often seems like I need to be extremely experienced to even consider applying. I know I still need some work from a programming standpoint, but it would give a good objective to chase if that's the direction I go.
merry tartan
@steel hound they have jobs listed here for contracts best thing to do is talk to those people on the phone and email and find out if you have the confidence to take on the work, and then build on that success
you are looking to get experience and people have a large demand for engineering
you should be trying to build up contacts on the inside that will offer you a salaried spot once you have proven yourself
ashen lynx
@steel hound As a person, who turned this amazing hobby into a job and now in the process of reversing it back gradually, my opinion would be that it is not worth it. Thrice not worth it, if you have a family. That, however, does not mean that you cannot ship your own title as a part of a hobby. If you are firm on getting in as employee, you are pretty lucky with your location. I would not suggest following QA route in any case. Low wages times limited career growth. It used to be a thing at some point, but now it is not as good way of getting in. Building portfolio of work in whatever branch you choose is the most important. Education, especially if it is not your first degree, is not as important as it may seem.
steel hound
Thanks @merry tartan I'll definitely look into some of those.
merry tartan
@steel hound one thing you could do is generate enough interest in your skills to get an engineer test sent to you and see where you skills compare and use it as a guide to drive your efforts. I agree with @ashen lynx points. For me I never wanted to do anything else since I was 8 years old and been a pro since 1989 so I don't feel like I ever had a choice in the matter of what to do with my life, this is and will be my life. My view of things is very much colored by making games is not something I did for money.
ashen lynx
Satisfaction factor is definitely there indeed.
mortal raven
So guys. The big advice.
I just finished and released my supermassive mod Fallout: New California. Took 7 years. I both worked non-entertainment day jobs, as well as remote freelance 3D art for 6 games, 2 on Unreal. I have several feature films under my belt as a Vfx Producer and artist. I'm a proficient but slow 3D artist and level designer.
I'm not broke. Actually doing okay right now. But that won't last long. I survived living in a rural area with low rent and just survived the last few years. A move to a big city would put me in the red, but so would just staying here.
Do I take my brand new fully featured design document and go all in crowdfunding a new indie game on Unreal?
OR
Is January 2019 a good time to go looking for work? Get into a studio again, build relationships, find a new programming best friend, then leave after a decade and form a new studio to make my own game later?
I'm pretty torn on which path to take.
I'm told, do the one that scares you most, but they're both equally horrifying. :p The thought of not getting to make the new game is what kills me though. Either by not having enough capital, or getting sidetracked for too many years and burning out working for some faceless corporation.
lilac walrus
I would look for work
a design document isn't really sufficient to try and crowdfund something; if you wanted to go that route, you'd want playable protoypes, and a working business plan (and ideally investment lined up already, using crowdfunding as icing on the cake)
you may find that companies that are hiring will give you an advance on your salary if you need to move from a cheaper area to a more expensive one, such a thing is not unusual, so I wouldn't worry too much about that
if they want to hire you, they'll make the money side of things work
making your own studio / game is totally an ideal I can get behind - but it's not something you want to jump into unprepared and without personal cash to fall back on, hehe
mortal raven
Oh yeah, the prototype is planned and I have money people I will ask. Most of the art and all the design would be made by me, and I have a crew of people online that if I offered them very little money they'd drop everything to help. But, my two programmers will cost a lot unless I find my two unicorns. I've tallied over 30k$ just for them alone for 5 months of prototyping.
The gap there is 20k$. I can't figure how I'd make that up before springing for over 240k$ for full production.
lilac walrus
that's where the private investment comes in
and tbh, $240k sounds quite low for all but the smaller games
mortal raven
It's not huge. Rimworld like with an RPG at its core. Topdown, lowpoly, no voice acting, no scripted main quest.
I want to use Unreal to build it, since it's what I am most familiar with. Got some cool ideas how I'll get procedural maps to generate with materials to produce the object placement like big rotating stamps.
The overworld is literally just a texture with cities on it, the local map where play takes place is max 40x40 1080 screens.
plucky hatch
@merry tartan
Here is a link to my current website: https://christianphilippedev.wixsite.com/gamedeveloper
However, I'm currently redoing the entire website/portfolio and have just updated some of the currently existing pages such as ''Games''.
Once I'm done with that phase, I'm also going to purchase a shorter Domain Name. 😉 🔥
west sonnet
Well, well, well. That looks quite familiar 😛
obsidian geyser
Hi guys, im wondering, how hard is it to get a job as an artist, (for example concept artist or level designer)?
Would it purely depend on your skill, I heard that the market is really over saturated and its almost impossible to get a job as game artist, is this correct?
flat gazelle
Seeing as you label a level designer as an artist you are some years from getting a job as a game artist. It is saturated. The more general the role, the more saturated. On the flip side, really good tech and vfx artists are desperately needed.
obsidian geyser
So what if you specialized in lighting?
Im just wondering if there is a lot of difference in the field of game art since there's a lot of different possibilities
Say the difference between concept artist or 3d modelling or 3d animator + rigging.
flat gazelle
All of the roles you listed are separate job descriptions with separate career paths.
Lighter is one.
Concept is one.
Animation is one.
Tech anim/rigging is one.
3d modelling is often broken up into several. Hard, soft, level and so on.
merry tartan
@plucky hatch Everything looks good to me except I can't tell what you did excactly on the projects you list. Do you have solo work where you did everything in the frame? Or if you are going to show entire products break out exactly only what you did. The site is great, and very well done, but even with all the information on it I can't see your skill set being used except maybe the programming section where it is clear you did all of it. My other question is who interviewed you at the AAA studio was it LD's or Artists or Engineers? Did they did test your knowledge and find it lacking, you also have references. I don't see anything you have modeled or a link to a site like art station where I can see where your modeling skills are. Under modeling you have a single UT screenshot with a big UT logo nothing showing the model off too much noise.
the gameplay videos section is also confusing I was looking for videos of people playing your work as a LD and I see law breakers trash...
might be better to avoid using music on the videos you never know the taste of the people watching them, I found it something to turn off as soon as I heard it.
hybrid phoenix
That's something that always bugs me on talk-to-camera videos on youtube
I understand most people like quiet background music and it keeps people engaged
But I listen to my own music. Always.
So having to pause that because of a stupid jingle sucks
merry tartan
music is an added risk it is so subjective for resumes I would avoid it, use the in game music created by the game makers, that way it can be explained.
@plucky hatch Regardless of my minor points "another is you have a ref in French maybe make it English and French" you have a great presentation of your work even though I can't tell what you can do from it, I would still interview you. My biggest question coming away from it after a few minutes of thought is why aren't your references hiring you to help them at the studios they work at? That would be my first interview question, after what did you do on the titles you listed.
plucky hatch
@merry tartan
Good points. This is exactly why Im redoing my portfolio.
This is what I've done in 3D. It was the second thing in the portfolio section.
https://christianphilippedev.wixsite.com/gamedeveloper/blog/unreal-tournament-pre-alpha-3d-weapon-enforcer
In my portfolio, I posted gameplay videos of someone playing the missions I've worked on or section of the world. I mean, what you see is what you get. If At the top of the page I've specified that I have designed the level or placed enemies, scripted AI, etc. What you see in the gameplay video is literally what I did on that level. However, I'm thinking recruiters are actually looking for design documents. A lot of them. Unfortunately, I have none of that. Which is why I'll redo my portfolio.
The ''gameplay video'' section doesn't contain gameplay videos of playthrough. Those are videos of me playing games. God of War, LawBreakers and Unreal Tournament Pre-Alpha are 3 combat heavy games. I personally wouldnt hire a game designer who sucks at games to work on any combat oriented game.
flat gazelle
Wait... You have footage of you playing someone else's game on your portfolio?
plucky hatch
On my website, I have a gameplay video section. Me playing LawBreakers, UT and God of War.
In my portfolio, I have videos of gamers that are going through the game Ievels that I have worked on.
flat gazelle
Right
plucky hatch
Am I doing something wrong? 🤔
flat gazelle
Haven't seen the website but it sounds odd.
Are you applying for an influencer type job?
Then it makes total sense
plucky hatch
why would that be odd?
for game designer or Level Designer position?
Would you hire a game designer who doesnt play games or suck at multiplayer games to design the next halo multiplayer?
flat gazelle
Sure, if he is great a designing
plucky hatch
...
flat gazelle
I could kick many of the BF designers ass, yet I couldn't design my way out of a handbasket so I'll go ahead and disagree.
plucky hatch
Do you think that you would do a better job at balancing a game like LawBreakers, UT or Overwatch than a designer who is also a top tier player?
If you suck at those games how would you know what to fix???
lilac walrus
oh for the love of fuck, this again?
plucky hatch
@flat gazelle
I'll give you a real world example of what happens when the designers don't play their games or arent good at playing games.
LawBreakers was developed by a team that had like 20 years of XP in FPS games.
And yet, in two consecutive updates they boosted two times in a row the most OP character in the game.
And patch 1.4 literally changed the balance of the game which could have been great long term if they would have been willing to change everything that was wrong with the game. But since they dindt have the resources, Patch 1.4 was worst then the release version of the game that was better balanced relative to the flaws of the game.
flat gazelle
I have no idea what you tried to say there. I'm sorry if you got burned at boss key
What was your role there? Right now it reads like you were a typical outsider who "knows how to fix it better than the guys sitting on all the data"
Could be good to clarify
lilac walrus
Either way, not sure why the link was dropped, but from taking a look at the website briefly, I'd be reluctant to take your application forwards, at least from a game design or level design perspective - you've got a few different sections on there, but 90%+ is just screenshots that don't strictly convey anything.
As an example, if you did multiplayer level design, I would usually like to see something that shows me something of the level layout, along with some short written text that explains why parts of it are organised as such, bonus points if we can see work in progress or see something that demonstrates the workflow behind it - a gallery of small, square images captured from the game doesn't tell me anything, and I have no idea which parts of the screenshots you're responsible for.
As a examples of game design, I'd expect to see examples of gameplay systems, with a description of approach and how they worked, and where applicable videos of it in action or diagrams that demonstrate in detail how it works, along with a description of decisions made and the reasoning behind it; random snippets of text describing certain tool functions isn't overly helpful (less so because they're in French, though this is probably less of an issue in a bilingual working environment).
I would focus on these two things in particular to improve presentation of your abilities - at the moment I can only see pictures of games, but what I need to know is about you
hopefully that helps
plucky hatch
@flat gazelle
I was a top tier player on LawBreakers, one of the 3 top Wraith players. I watched the fall of the game.
I didn't work at Boss Key.
@lilac walrus
I agree with all your points. As I said, I kept nothin from the work I ve done on thos game. They date from 2008-2012. And I certainly didnt have the right to show my documents either,( NDA).
lilac walrus
you don't have to show the actual documents, you can just do a quick write up on what you did, and why you did things that way
that kind of stuff usually isn't covered by an NDA
plucky hatch
I'm going to just going to recreate the documentations and 3D layouts.
wont take too long.
I personally value more the 5 recommendations on my website than my actual website lmao
But it seems that recruiters see it differently
harsh brook
https://grandbuilder.artstation.com/ how much of this should I delete coming into the new year? I'm not amazing but my work has improved over time and I'm planning on throwing a couple of more recent projects up once they're finished
harsh brook
that and a tornado but if its just those two is that ok?
ashen lynx
@harsh brook One well made video with presentation and breakdown of a specific effect would be worth all of that art station page. For the sake of the record, I'd say that this is more of VFX than technical art.
harsh brook
Good to know Iv been making a transition to vfx since school I just need to get out the technical art mindset that I called myself for a while still
Thanks for the feedback guys I appreciate it
plucky hatch
@flat gazelle
About our discussion earlier. I'll give you another real-life example.
Gears of War 3 was released on September 20, 2011. Right from day one, players like me who are experienced players knew right away that there was a problem with the weapon balance and the Sawed-off Shotgun. And we told Epic about it. But Cliffy B at first said it was all good.
October 4, 2012
What challenge did you face throughout the development, and did any of these increase as the fanbase did too?
Bleszinski: We faced the problems of drowning on our own fiction and universe, as well as figuring out how, over multiple games, you can win a ‘battle’ but not the water. On the multiplayer side, we learned that with each sequel, there’s always a risk of upsetting fans by adding in new guns. If I could go back in time I would remove the sawed-off shotgun. Yes, I’m willing to admit when I’m wrong.
The active-reload is something that I've been saying since GoW1 that it breaks multiplayer. Works for singleplayer, no problem. But it doesn't work in competitive play.
2015-09-10
Cliffy B: "For as revered as active reload should be, Bleszinski admitted that it's not without its faults. "One of the mistakes we made for multiplayer -- and it was fine for single-player to have a boost to the damage of your weapons -- but in multiplayer, all players did was fire off shots to the right, reload, and get an increased magazine damage," he lamented. "That's cheap. It's not cool.
"
If you have a designer who happens to also be a top tier player (hopefully on multiple games). That individual will literally save you hours, months, years and even decades of testing. Because that's how we get good at combat design, by playing them.
By the way I even do it for free
LOL
flat gazelle
If you say so!
ashen lynx
There is absolutely no correlation in success of design and designer being a good player.
like.. zero.
flat gazelle
Shhhh
ashen lynx
😉
flat gazelle
Wtf do you know.
plucky hatch
@ashen lynx
And yet the example above just proves you wrong
steel hound
Wouldn't advertising yourself in that way imply that not only are you going to design 40-60 hours a week, but you'll also QA the game at the highest levels?
plucky hatch
Games are learning tools. By getting good at Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament, Street Fighter and Star Craft, you can already cover most grounds.
But it wont cover games like Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow Spies VS Mercs.
That was unique and they had to learn on the fly
flat gazelle
@plucky hatch too be perfectly honest with you, your comments are quite ignorant and reek of amateurishness. I lost all respect for you some comments back an will therefore disengage now. I do however wish you the best of luck and hope that you prove me wrong in the future.
plucky hatch
Wow.
kind crater
shots fired
plucky hatch
When you try to educate people and they fire...
steel hound
I'd could also point to the thousands of Designers working on highly successful games right now who do not play at the highest level. That being said, my statement above is still reality that you're basically offering to design the game and play it at the highest of levels, so your work day ends as a Designer after 8-12 hours, and then you go home and play enough to surpass other players?
ashen lynx
Best plane designs were never done by best pilots. Best cars were never designed by best racers. Best ships were never planned by the most skilled masters. What makes a game design stand out in this pattern ?
steel hound
You could also point out that if you are building your game to focus on the "highest levels of gameplay" you're skipping over the majority of your community.
(in most situations, not all)
shadow kelp
When many people far more experienced than you are disagreeing, you should probably take a moment to think if you really are as correct as you think you are....
plucky hatch
I never wrote anywhere that to become a top tier player would then turn you into a game designer.
If you believe that it is what I meant, that is not the case.
What I said is designers who also are top tier players have a slight advantage in anything gameplay related when it comes down to game design.
There is a specific area of game design that is COMBAT DESIGN.
Designing character classes, creating gameplay mechanics, balancing games, etc
Gameplay loop, player retention systems, etc.
You don't need a background as a top tier player to design menus, skill trees, etc.
Or to do narrative design
It's common sense.
steel hound
If you have a designer who happens to also be a top tier player (hopefully on multiple games). That individual will literally save you hours, months, years and even decades of testing. Because that's how we get good at combat design, by playing them.
That is much different than a "slight advantage"
plucky hatch
What is not common sense is to believe that a random designer would be just as good as a designer who is also a top tier player to design games like Street Fighter, halo, UT, etc.
@steel hound
😉
And no you don't have to be a top tier player to design a successful game such as Fortnite, because in this case what makes it bad also makes it successful. But you need to understand what kind of game you are making
shadow kelp
understanding the game you are making absolutely zero to do with being good at it
Particularly when you have telemetry that tells you exactly how every player is playing the game....not just confined to the blinkered experience of a top level player
plucky hatch
That's funny, because I've been playing with Jitspoe the gameplay programmer of LawBreakers and from day one he played weekly with us and he would totally disagree with you.
Nathan Wulf
Jitspoe being his nickname
lawBreakers was one of those games you can play for 400 hours and still be learning something new every freaking minute.
Because in order to understand gameplay it's a vast network of things that you need to put together one after the other and eventually it all start to make more sense.
There is no shortcut to that other than playing at the hightest levels. As high as you can
you cannot put a random designer on a game like lawbreakers
it doesnt work
plucky hatch
In fact, the lead designer said during a conference that it was going to take them 1 full year to understand and balance gameplay
he works on Doom now
shadow kelp
Some of can draw on personal experience, rather than anecdotes...but whatever, this isn't a constructive discussion. Have fun.
steel creek
This also isnt the place for it
plucky hatch
How is it not constructive? i'm literally killing the myth buster that ''no you dont have to be good at games to desgin games''. Yes. You totally have to.
This is the career channel. This is invaluable advice for any designer
steel hound
Well, first I would make sure your communication skills are cleaned up. From my perspective you are unwavering on this opinion that a top tier gamer who also designs games is better than someone who purely designs games. You don't even consider other lines of thinking and if I were a recruiter and got this type of communication from you, I would hang up the phone quickly.
steel creek
That is not what it is for.
ashen lynx
@plucky hatch I am not sure how discussion of your portfolio turned into mythbusting, but #design-chat is the right channel for that.
karmic kayak
You dont. But i have the feeling we already had this "discussion" weeks ago.
digital gate
the gameplay videos featured on it Deathrey.
plucky hatch
yes, this discussion started, because I show Gameplay Videos in my game designe/level design portfolio
And we were talking about how relevant that was, or not
And this is the place here to discuss that
This is for portfolio, getting a job, etc
steel creek
and they answered you
and you refuse to see any other position
stop arguing in here, take it to lounge
plucky hatch
But, I totally understand why it would make certain people uncomfortable if it turns out... to play games at a top tier level can give you an advantage as a designer.
calm berry
steel creek
now you are just trying to provoke response beecause you are getting attention. That is fine. But you are definately on my never hire list. Cheers.
plucky hatch
How am I being toxic here?
Like really.
Most of you above are trying to discredit the value of being top tier players.
In the industry
You are being slightly being disrespectful.
steel hound
If this is your behavior in a chat setting like Discord, I can only imagine the type of dialog that would take place trying to work with you on any kind of project. That is what I am referring to, your communication style comes off as toxic, aggressive and disrespectful to people who are stating differing opinions.
shadow kelp
You're getting some valuable career advice here. I would also be putting your CV in the bin about now because of your lack of self-awareness and poor communication skills.
plucky hatch
My behavior? You mean me taking the time and effort to actually bring you rea-life arguments about a subject in the Career channel?
Im currently the only one in the room who actually did this.
kind crater
would you put your playing experience on the cv 🤔
plucky hatch
yes, because I personally understand the value of it.,
And i understand most people won't understand it
steel hound
That's because there are endless examples of successful games that don't have designers playing at the highest levels.
steel creek
You mean me taking the time and effort to actually bring you rea-life arguments about a subject in the Career channel?
again, that is not what this channel is for. You are arguing phlosphical differences in hiring. This is about people seeking advice in their careers. Not a place of philosphy.
the fact that multiple ppl have told you the same as much in various ways, and your obtuse understanding of that fact, again, nope on the hire list.
plucky hatch
@steel hound
I never said you need the experience of a top tier player to make successful game.
I even specifically made the statement and clarified that Fortnite had many problems and it is those problems that make it a highly successful game.
But that statement also implied that someone who is a designer + top tier player can fully understand both sides of the spectrum
We are just having a normal discussions and already two people posted stuff like ''I lost all respect for you'', ''I'll never hire you''.
And Im the one being toxic?
steel hound
It's also disingenuous to imply that anyone who disagrees is "uncomfortable" with the topic at hand. I already gave you career feedback and it's to change your communication style and attitude because no recruiter is going to touch you as soon as you go after their opinion on something you disagree with.
Your logic is flawed because you assume many things about the nature of top tier players. You also assume you'll have time to play at that level once you're in a design position. The reason people stop speaking with you is because you come across as disrespectful with comments such as how you completely slaughter the idea of a QA team being useless compared to someone who played at a top tier.
ashen lynx
@plucky hatch You aren't being exactly toxic, but you are trying to propagate your opinion as a fact and ground truth.
plucky hatch
What opinion?